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US presidential election blog: Obama, McCain, Joe the Plumber and debating the American Nightmare
06:41 Thu 16 Oct 2008 - Clive Leviev-Sawyer
 

The tight camera shots as Barack Obama and John McCain duelled in the third and final televised presidential debate concealed the fact that there were many people present in spirit, including that Banquo’s Ghost of this election: Joe the Plumber. It is certain Joe is being tracked down in Ohio for his opinion on who won.

Chances are it was not McCain, even though he turned in his best-yet debate performance, but not to the level he needed to reverse the reported major advantage Obama currently has in the polls. The thrusts that McCain needed to hit home against Obama – about Bill Ayers and ACORN – instead were easily deflected.

The characters who peopled the debate were the American middle-class taxpayer, who even though McCain invoked the American Dream may now be said to be living the American Nightmare; president Bush; Ayers, of course, and the respective running mates, Joe Biden and Sarah Palin.

After many weeks, McCain finally had a good line in response to Obama’s consistent attempts to use Bush’s two terms as concrete socks for McCain. As Obama once again claimed that a McCain presidency would be a continuation of the Bush years, McCain came back with: “Senator Obama, I am not president Bush. If you want to run against president Bush, you should have done so four years ago”.

It was with the predictable opening question about the trauma hitting the US economy that Joe the Plumber made his appearance.

Joe, McCain said, had been in conversation in Ohio with Obama. Joe had concluded that under an Obama presidency, he would pay higher taxes.

Obama, seeking to rebut what has become a familiar allegation by the McCain camp in all the debates, said that both he and McCain wanted to cut taxes: “the difference is, who for”. To camera, Obama repeated the now-familiar: “If you make less than $250 000 a year, you will pay less tax”. Joe the Plumber would benefit, he said. So would others, and in any case, 98 per cent of small businesses in the US made less than $250 000.

McCain challenged Obama: “we need to spread wealth around,” he said, and it was Joe who should be allowed to do so. “Why would you want to increase anyone’s taxes right now, especially in tough times?”

It sounded good, but Obama was ready – not surprisingly considering how often the charge has been repeated (it is perhaps inevitable, this late and long into the presidential contest when so many things have been repeated so many times, that rivals sound like an old married couple revisiting long-unresolved household squabbles). “I want to cut taxes for 95 per cent of Americans,” Obama said. And yes, this would include Joe the Plumber. Nobody likes taxes, Obama said, but some could better afford to pay them.

On the mounting deficit and the question of trimming back spending, McCain – so often accused by Obama and his camp of offering an across-the-board spending freeze that was tantamount to a hatchet when a scalpel was needed – was ready to respond that his use of a hatchet would be followed by the use of a scalpel. ( I was dearly hoping by this stage that one or the other candidate would come up with a wrench analogy, to keep Joe in the picture, but sadly neither of them thought of it.)

Then came the question that so many had been waiting for – no doubt including Obama, and certainly everyone in the Republican camp that had been urging McCain to take the gloves off; the one about the nastiness on both sides, the accusations of lying, and in a paraphrase of Obama, that these allegations, in no debate so far, had been made face to face. In other words, it was the Bill Ayers question; the racism question.

“This has been a tough campaign,” McCain said. He regretted some of the negative aspects of both campaigns (points for the finesse in saying that); and then he went face-to-face, challenging Obama about things said in his camp that Obama had not repudiated, saying that Obama had spent more money on negative advertising “than any campaign in history” (that would have got the fact-checkers busy immediately) and accusing Obama of not keeping his word on promises including that the two of them would have many “town hall meeting” debates.

Obama: “We expect presidential campaigns to be tough…100 per cent of your ads, John, have been negative”. But, Obama went on, Americans were “less interested in our hurt feelings” than in their own economic plight. Town hall meetings would not help when people wanted to talk about the economic crisis.

McCain: “You’re running ads how I oppose federal funding for stem cell research. I don’t.” He added that Obama had misrepresented his position on migration.

Obama came back with the Palin and McCain meetings where people in the crowd had referred to him as a “terrorist” and some had shouted “kill him”. The American people were becoming cynical about politics when all they saw was tit-for-tat in campaigning.

McCain’s manouevre was to stand by those who attended his rallies as dedicated patriotic men and women, while saying that he had repudiated such statements. He added an objection to “some of the things yelled at your rallies,” he told Obama.

And then it was Ayers and ACORN. Inevitably, Obama was well prepared, especially because McCain first had telegraphed that Ayers would come up in the second debate, which he did not, and then had said Ayers would be there in the third.

Ayers, Obama said, had been involved in “despicable” things – “40 years ago, when I was eight years old”. Yes, he said, the two of them had been together on a school board – one funded by one of the Ronald Reagan funds, and whose members included leaders from the University of Illinois and the Chicago Tribune. “Mr Ayers is not involved in this campaign, will not be, and will not advise me in the White House.” ACORN, Obama said, had “nothing to do with us”. The people he associated with were Republicans and Democrats and with them, his ideas had been shaped.

McCain: “You sent $230 000 to ACORN”. Obama: “Not true”. (Another one that would have had the fact-checkers scrambling.)

Asked to list the respective advantages of their running mates, Biden and Palin, Obama and McCain came up with interesting lists.

Biden was one of the finest public servants, with strong foreign policy credentials, who had never forgotten where he came from, a fighter for the “little guy” and would make an outstanding president, Obama said.

Palin was a role model for women (I confess that I did think of Tina Fey in particular at this point), had given money back to taxpayers, cut back government, was a reformer through-and-through and had a special understanding of special needs families. “I am proud of her,” McCain said.

The follow-jabs on both sides were ineffectual. Obama paid tribute to Palin being “commendable” about special needs families but got in a stab that just such needs would not be served by McCain’s proposed across-the-board spending freeze. McCain called into question those very “foreign policy credentials” of Biden, saying that Biden had been wrong on issues including by voting against the first Gulf war.

The question on screening candidate supreme court judges for their views on Roe v Wade opened an interesting phase of the debate. The technicalities aside, Obama probably did the best in the women voters’ constituency on the issue (but traditionally termination of pregnancy is an issue that favours Democrats) by emphasising a woman’s right to choose, and shooting back at McCain’s assertion about leaving the issue to individual states by saying that on this and other issues, states could not be allowed to pare back constitutional rights.

The closing states were, surprisingly, rather dull, coming across as precisely what they were, a checklist of talking points rather than anything that will go down in the history of inspirational quotable quotes – even the Obama rhetoric for which McCain less than subtly mocks his rival appear to subside into paint-by-numbers stuff.

McCain emphasised his record of reform, the need for a new direction because of the past eight years (presumably, he is not running against Bush either, but McCain does like to emphasise to his advantage where he has dissented from the Republican establishment). “I have been a careful steward of your tax dollars,” McCain said, and noted the “long line of McCains” who had served America. “I’ve been proud to serve you and I hope you give me the opportunity to serve again”.

Obama opened by repeating for the third time that America faced “the worst economic crisis since the Great Depression”. “We need fundamental change,” he said, and one heard an echo of the message with which his campaign started. “We need to invest in the American people again,” Obama said, through tax cuts, education and growing the middle class. It would require “all of us, Democrats and Republicans” to come together.

The final question is whether anything was said that made Joe the Plumber change his mind. It is quite certain we shall find out, if not through an enterprising reporter or campaign trooper tracking him down, but at least on November 4 when Joe and millions of others pronounce their verdict.

 

 


 

 
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Comments
 
Comments by Faye Nicholson - 07:36 16 Oct 2008
After listening to a major news correspondent embedded with the Obama campaign explain the Obama campaign’s answer to Joe the Plumber about why he should give more of his money to the government, I have a question… If Joe the Plumber gives X amount of money to Barrack Obama  and Obama gives this same X amount of money to Middle America  then Middle America turns right back around and gives the same X amount of money back to Joe the Plumber to buy his goods and services, how will Joe’s business ever grow? How will he ever grow it enough to employ more of Middle America? How will he ever grow it enough to pay more taxes? Why would he want to? And the scariest question of all -- What incentive would Middle America have to grow, if all their needs are being met by Joe? It’s like saying, “Here. Here’s some of my hard earned money so you can pay me to do more hard work for you.” It just doesn’t make any sense! Who is it fair to? Certainly not Joe! Joe probably knows better than anybody who needs his hard earned money, given out of good heart. And that’s what will lift, not only those who receive Joe’s money as a gift, but also Joe, himself. The Obama campaign reasons that if Joe the Plumber doesn’t give more of his money to Middle America, there won’t be anybody who has money to pay for his services. Please explain to me, how are you making any money, and how is it fair, if you are getting paid with your own money? And how is that Capitalism? Or is it something else entirely?
Comments by Connor - 07:45 16 Oct 2008
I guess Joe the Plumber will make some money because the money that middle America is paying for Joe the Plumber's work will be more than he gave to Obama in the first place. Shit, I don't know, it's all a ploy to promote recycling and save the planet!!
Comments by james orea - 13:23 16 Oct 2008
Joe the plumber was approached by a newspaper columnist earlier that day with the specific task of asking obama that question.
Comments by Billy Felts - 13:40 16 Oct 2008
Joe the plumber is part of the problem that we are in now. The average worker makes between 8.00 and 20.oo dollars per hr. Joe the plumber charges anywhere from 60.00 to 120.00 per hr. Our nation is filled with greed. We have put ourselves in this ression. The banks charge to much for interest on homes, electricy cost are to high, to get your car worked on cost at least 60.00 per hr. No wonder we look at bankrup. We just can't afford the high cost of greed.
Comments by Billy Felts - 13:41 16 Oct 2008
Joe the plumber is part of the problem that we are in now. The average worker makes between 8.00 and 20.oo dollars per hr. Joe the plumber charges anywhere from 60.00 to 120.00 per hr. Our nation is filled with greed. We have put ourselves in this ression. The banks charge to much for interest on homes, electricy cost are to high, to get your car worked on cost at least 60.00 per hr. No wonder we look at bankrup. We just can't afford the high cost of greed.
Comments by beingajoe - 15:08 16 Oct 2008
Obama soundly beat McCain. McCain look uncomfortable stiff and immature. He whined, pointed the finger and had no strong policy argument. He acted like a child and is regressing into Sarah Palin. By the way, here is a website I found that shares all the Gov Sarah Palin dirt and supports Barack Obama!
Comments by susan rivera - 15:48 16 Oct 2008
We need Obama,Biden,new ideas,a new approach, to huge problems.McCain, Palin same old same old,not good enough for me,what average Americans are you looking at? We need jobs.
Comments by Mike W - 16:13 16 Oct 2008
If Joe the Plumber wants to buy a business that will net him $270-280K a year as he claims the business would do, he is not part of the middle class - - he is in the top 5% of income earners in America. Even if half of his income goes to taxes, he is still left with $140K a year, which is much more than a good percentage of Americans makes before taxes. McCain's attempt to link Joe's situation to most American's economic situation was tenuous at best.
Comments by Sandra Kear - 17:13 16 Oct 2008
If Joe the Plumber is making 250K/year or more, then I'm in the wrong business. I don't believe it.
Comments by jamie rushad - 18:13 16 Oct 2008
Hello. I was really excited to see the debate last night. It was far more impressive than past debates. Joe the Plumber was a character that automatically popped in my head as a working class hero. I immediatly went and started illustrating him in a vintage ww2 propaganda style. Joe's one tough guy and he will be voting McCain in November. Joe the Plumber, we can do it T-Shirt
Comments by jamie rushad - 18:14 16 Oct 2008
Hello. I was really excited to see the debate last night. It was far more impressive than past debates. Joe the Plumber was a character that automatically popped in my head as a working class hero. I immediatly went and started illustrating him in a vintage ww2 propaganda style. Joe's one tough guy and he will be voting McCain in November. check it out at www.zazzle.com/jamierushad
Comments by jill - 19:33 16 Oct 2008
Watch for a send-up of Joe the Plumber and McCain on the next SNL, which is where they both belong. Let's not shed any tears over Joe and his higher taxes. He'll be sitting pretty throughout the recession. Hiring a plumber isn't a discretionary expenditure. If you need one, you'll hire one regardless of what the economy's doing. And for all his whining about being penalized for trying to reach the American Dream, Joe's no poster boy for those who are trying to do the same. Appearing on a talk show this morning, Joe said that when he asked Obama about his taxes, Obama "tap danced" around the issue "like Sammy Davis Jr." Apparently he thinks an African-American who aspires to the office of the presidency is as laughable as a dancing ape. He may not even be aware that his remark was racist, which is the most frightening part of this sorry episode.
Comments by Rebecca - 20:08 16 Oct 2008
If by chance McCain wins we the people of America are doomed for 4 more years of the same BS we have had with Bush lets face it he is a little Bush. We the people need change and the guy to give us the well needed change is Obama. He will make us strong again. Before you vote do yourselves a favor and read the debates and the plains these men have for us. Do not beleive the lies that MCcain has told about Obama. Obama is Christen and dose have our well being in mind. So make sure on Nov.4th you vote for whats right for you and your family.
Comments by Rebecca - 20:10 16 Oct 2008
If by chance McCain wins we the people of America are doomed for 4 more years of the same BS we have had with Bush lets face it he is a little Bush. We the people need change and the guy to give us the well needed change is Obama. He will make us strong again. Before you vote do yourselves a favor and read the debates and the plans these men have for us. Do not beleive the lies that McCain has told about Obama. Obama is Christian and does have our well being in mind. So make sure on Nov.4th you vote for whats right for you and your family.
Comments by Andrew - 20:22 16 Oct 2008
Nevermind 'Joe the Plumber' what about 'Andrew the Cancer patient'? All we hear about is Joe. Like his small business is more important than healthcare for people with pre-conditions. Typical America, so lost in the dollar that we have forgotten the importance of living.
Comments by Bob Good - 20:29 16 Oct 2008
I find it very interesting that Joe the Plumber finds it very interesting that he cant "share the wealth" of PROSPERITY with other fellow Americans when he is SHARING the FREEDOM that was kept on this LAND from other people that SHARED THEIR LIVES when they went overseas to fight for our FREEDOM in MANY WARS, no matter if the war was warranted or not. THE VERY FREEDOM that he is enjoying to have the possibility to have a company that HE IS ALLOWED TO OWN here vs what other countries do instead of our CAPITALISTIC economy. SO JOE, I ASK YOU IS IT FAIR that OTHERS HAVE LOST THEIR LOVED ONES "SHARING their OWN FAMILY MEMBER" to DEFEND THESE VERY LIBERTIES that ALLOW YOU TO MAKE THIS MONEY HERE? Funny how we as a nation can be so selfish to our own small sighted objectives and yet we fail to realize how others have given so much more when they GAVE THEIR LIVES instead of giving any money that you selfishly, and BITTERLY cant have any heart to do what the VERY FABRIC oF BEING AN AMERICAN STANDS FOR. WE HAVE BEEN KNOWN to HELP OTHERS AS GOD ASKS US TO. LIVES VS A FEW BUCKS JOE, WHICH IS THE CHEAPER OF THE TWO TO GIVE?
Comments by Bob Good - 20:31 16 Oct 2008
I find it very interesting that Joe the Plumber finds it very interesting that he cant "share the wealth" of PROSPERITY with other fellow Americans when he is SHARING the FREEDOM that was kept on this LAND from other people that SHARED THEIR LIVES when they went overseas to fight for our FREEDOM in MANY WARS, no matter if the war was warranted or not. THE VERY FREEDOM that he is enjoying to have the possibility to have a company that HE IS ALLOWED TO OWN here vs what other countries do instead of our CAPITALISTIC economy. SO JOE, I ASK YOU IS IT FAIR that OTHERS HAVE LOST THEIR LOVED ONES "SHARING their OWN FAMILY MEMBER" to DEFEND THESE VERY LIBERTIES that ALLOW YOU TO MAKE THIS MONEY HERE? Funny how we as a nation can be so selfish to our own small sighted objectives and yet we fail to realize how others have given so much more when they GAVE THEIR LIVES instead of giving any money that you selfishly, and BITTERLY cant have any heart to do what the VERY FABRIC oF BEING AN AMERICAN STANDS FOR. WE HAVE BEEN KNOWN to HELP OTHERS AS GOD ASKS US TO. LIVES VS A FEW BUCKS JOE, WHICH IS THE CHEAPER OF THE TWO TO GIVE?
Comments by Michelle Heslop - 20:56 16 Oct 2008
People who make more money in the country should pay more taxes. Their success is directly related to the support of others and typically they have more tax write offs. It's riduclous to think that someone who makes 25,000 a year should pay the same tax percentage as someone who makes a 1,000,000 a year. A 10 percent flat tax expects the person to live on 22,500 a year and the person who makes a 1,000,000 to live on 900,000 a year. Someone who wines about having to pay more taxes doesn't see the big picture of how this gaps in economic status hurt our economy.
Comments by Ivan - 21:01 16 Oct 2008
Joe the plumber is the problem? If some of you posters honestly believe that you are so lost you deserve Obama. The philosophical question they have been dancing around but finally addressed a bit last night is simple : Should you keep the money you spend your life earning or should the government? Federal taxes aren't the only taxes we pay. Obama should stop pretending taxes are low when he doesn't look at the full pictures. It is common for 55% of small business income to go toward paying various taxes. Is it "fair" that the government does none of your work but keeps more of your money than you do? If you think so you aren't interested in fairness. If I keep my money I help who I thinks needs it (my Parents, Sister, brother, friends). If Obama steals more of my money it goes to his friends - Bill Ayes among them. McCain can absolutely kill him on this issue if he would just articulate it. The big problem with Obama (besides being a socialist) is that he thinks it is the governments job to decide what if "fair". He decides if you have made "too much" money and he decides who gets your money after he takes it from you. Once again it isn't fair and it isn't good for the country especially now. Why work hard when you are punished by Obama? He continually says "95% of you won't see a tax increase". Only 50% of people even pay federal taxes. The last 5%? They are the ones who are hiring people and creating jobs. Like it or not, the solution to a better life does not come from cogs in the machine wheel who are working hourly for someone else. Innovation comes from people who innovate not from vampires who produce nothing. Obama calls for a "tax cut" for people who don't pay taxes. This is misleading and you are fooling yourself if you can't see the socialism on the wall. What they neglect to tell you about Fannie and Freddie is that it was government mandated sub prime loans that caused the issue. The GOVERNMENT forced banks to make sure 20% of their loans were crappy or risk huge fines. The first 20% might have worked out ok but the last %20? The government's meddling and lack of congressional oversight (yes, CONGRESS was supposed to be overseeing Fannie and Freddie) caused the mortgage problem. Banking is the most regulated industry there is. We HAD regulation but the regulators (congress) are idiots. McCain knew this and tried to change it in 2005 but was blocked by Barney Frank and Chris Dodd who said "evil republicans are trying to take away mortgages from poor people". Obama solution is more government. When do people figure out that it doesn't work?
Comments by Ivan - 21:16 16 Oct 2008
Utter garbage Michelle Heslop. What you are proposing is socialism."From each according to his ability, to each according to his need?" Sound good to you? If so you are a communist. America is about opportunity. You ignore time taken to make that money. I work 18 hours a day every day. I may have a higher income but I choose to do that to get ahead and pay down debt. I'm busting my ass to do this but I do it because I know if I don't interest on my debt will enslave me forever. Do you really think it is helpful for anyone to tax me so I a)have no motivation to work and provide services to you on weekends and at night b)Tax away money I earned so I can't pay down my debt and need to stay in the system forever taking up a job longer and longer If you think that if fair I feel sorry for you. You are probably a 9 to 5er who has always had everything provided for you and don't know what it is like to work hard to get ahead.
Comments by Mike W - 21:25 16 Oct 2008
Ivan appears to have the greed complex..."if I make it, I want to spend it, and it will only benefit the people I want to benefit such as my family." You are not alone Ivan...most Americans are that way.
Comments by Frankie Oh - 21:33 16 Oct 2008
According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics, the mean annual wage for plumbers, pipefitters and steamfitters in the United States in 2007 was $47,350. It seems strange that Joe the Plumber is worried about something that will most likely NEVER happen to him. Joe is worried that his taxes will be hiked after he 'MIGHT SOMEDAY make $250K a year', all the while he earnestly knows he won't make anything near that because HE PLANS TO DRIVE THE SAME TRUCK FOR TWELVE YEARS. It's a little mind-boggling, and frankly selfish, that he is complaining today that his 'future taxes' might be raised when, lets face it, he is probably NEVER going to make $250K a year or more. Frankly, Joe, remember that it is those people in the upper income brackets who consistently get tax cuts and breaks, not YOU. Nor will you get tax breaks in the next eight years because you probably will NOT earn more money in the eight years that Obama will be president because, as you admitted, you will probably be driving the same truck for at least another four beyond his eight. So, as far as it looks, you will be doing pretty well under the Obama administration, do you get that? You are speaking in hypotheticals here, and hypothetically speaking, we may ALL make a million dollars some day, and I don't know about you but when and if I do, I don't want to forget all the drudgery I had to go through when I get there and greedily squirrel away a few more nuts so that those who are struggling just like I did will have to keep struggling in vain. By the way, an entrepreneurial minded person does not lock themselves into a single figure. You make it sound like you will make this fantastical $250K, and the government will take it all away, and then you will have no more. An entrepreneurial-minded person plans to consistently increase their profit margin, adjusting a business plan to accommodate current tax rates. Do you have a business plan? If so, you may think about revising the portion about how you will handle your taxes and how you will increase your services fees to accommodate those taxes. All in all, what you are saying is that today, as you scrape those pipes and walk away with an average income, you are all too happy to not have your taxes raised, but when the day comes when you suddenly make more money, you will forget all the hard work and toil you lived through as a middle class (almost lower middle class, actually) worker when you undoubtedly complained about your tax rates under the bush administration and which you will endorse further under the McCain administration. It seems to me that you are one of those people who subconsciously don’t want to make anything more of themselves, but you want to complain about how what you might futuristically make and how it will be taken away. You are a poverty-minded person, a person who always thinks about dearth, even futuristically. I'm a waitress and make more than you do, and 'one day' I plan to make more money doing something else, but until that day comes, I don't think I'm going to bellyache about my taxes, and furthermore, I will be in a position to pay more taxes, because my business plan will have taken tax increases into consideration. If you ever get to the day that you are no longer scraping pipes for $40K, and lets face it, you really have no plans to do so, even with higher taxes your income will amount to a whole lot more than what you are once making now. Don’t be so greedy people. You don’t want to suffer making less, but when you ‘make it’ you don’t understand that even under the Bush admin, your taxes will be a whole lot greater than what they are now, I am afraid to say. It’s not like your taxes will remain those of an average income person if your income suddenly increases six-fold. Why not just NEVER pay taxes at all. But that’s another conversation entirely. Greedy, selfish, greedy. Peace.
Comments by Michelle Heslop - 22:13 16 Oct 2008
Yes Ivan...Greed!!! It's what got our economy in trouble. Socialism is NOT communism and I am not a communist. I believe what benefits one benefits all. IT is a fact that there are people out there busting their humps making minimum wage and yes there are those busting their humps making more but what but people who make gross amount of money are profiting way above the average means and certainly should pay more for the exact reasons I mentioned. You're the one who is talking garbage or are you just so selfish you can't see the big picture!!
Comments by Michelle Heslop - 22:14 16 Oct 2008
Yes Ivan...Greed!!! It's what got our economy in trouble. Socialism is NOT communism and I am not a communist. I believe what benefits one benefits all. IT is a fact that there are people out there busting their humps making minimum wage and yes there are those busting their humps making more but people who make gross amount of money are profiting way above the average means and certainly should pay more for the exact reasons I mentioned. You're the one who is talking garbage or are you just so selfish you can't see the big picture?!!
Comments by John O'Neill - 22:50 16 Oct 2008
Joe the plumber has nothing to fear from Obama's tax policy. Joe the Businessman owner of a highly profitable stable of plumber employees might be affected. Tough!
Comments by Cherie Graves - 23:23 16 Oct 2008
Our economy is headed down the drain. Joe the Plumber instead of McCain. We need a leader who causes no drama. Joe the Plumber instead of Obama. We need a leader who can deal with some shit. Joe the Plumber for President.
Comments by Starlet - 23:57 16 Oct 2008
After watching the Final Presidential Debate last night, I was very interested in the "Joe the Plumber" saga. So I eagerly began to search the Internet in curiosity of what Joe actually wants. After listening to his conversation with Obama, I have come to conclusion that Joe had a more hyperthecial and general question than I expected. Joe wants to know "if"he decides to become his own business owner, and "if" he begans to make more than 250,000 dollars than "why" shoud he be taxed higher? Even though I feel that this is a no-brainer, my concerns and feelings are not so much as to "Why Joe must pay higher taxes" but why is Joe worried about something that has not come into play yet. He made an appearance on ABC News with Diane Sawyer in which he stated he does not make anything close to 250,000 dollars but hopes to inthe future. This is an American Dream of 100% of the citizens in this country and worried about whether or not you hve to pay taxes on this new found wealth is irrelevant to what Joe's situation is. It seemed to me that Joe is leanng toward a vote for McCain. With this in tow, Joe needs to ask the question of "Which canidate hs a plan that will allow him to create that dream job". Joe needs to inquire about which canidate will award him for creating that job in the USA that will bring jobs to the guy down the stret who is an experienced plumber but does not own the business. I hope that Joe fully understands that it is not initially aout he long term dream f making 250,000 dollars a year but being able to create that business all together. GOOD LUCK JOE!!! Starlet
Comments by PB - 00:02 17 Oct 2008
It's Called a campaign for Socialism layered with white guilt.
Comments by Paula R - 01:04 17 Oct 2008
Joe the plumber ISN'T who he says he is. He's a republican who doesn't pay his taxes and even lies about being a plumber. He is also related to the son-in-law of Charles Keating. Come on John and Sarah, give us just one break from the red herrings you keep throwing in the ring to keep from giving us details on handling the real issues... unless you have no concrete ideas and just want to get in the office. (I am feeling that, how about anyone else?) http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2008/10/16/135242/45/989/632620 http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2008/10/16/123539/11/77/632515
Comments by Gerald Denny - 01:16 17 Oct 2008
Obama's people continue to show their stupidity by saying Joe will be better off under plan because He will have 0% capital gains tax He would have 0% capital gains tax anyway unless He sold his business. I'm a small business owner and I don't pay anycapital gains tax.
Comments by exasperated4 - 01:37 17 Oct 2008
I do think it is interesting that Joe "the Plumber" Wurzelbacher just so happens to be the son of Robert Wurzelbacher, the son-in-law of--guess who?--none other than Robert Keating of the KEATING FIVE... unbiased, neutral, "average Joe" indeed...
Comments by Cole - 02:13 17 Oct 2008
Joe the plumber askes the real question! He works his butt off and Senator goverment wants to take it and give it to those that pay no taxes to start with. How is that Fair?
Comments by American - 02:44 17 Oct 2008
Does anyone migrate from this country to another in pursuit of freedom & prosperity? People from countries that Obama admires are lined up to come to this country to pursue Joe Plumber's dream. That is how this country was created.
Comments by iBob - 02:53 17 Oct 2008
The United Association of Plumbers & Pipefitters became the first International Union to endorse Senator Barack Obama. Barack Obama is the choice of the UA because he has always fought for working people throughout his career and will do the best job of bringing badly-needed change to Washington
Comments by jessi - 04:12 17 Oct 2008
"Joe the Plumber" would save approximately $500 under Obama's tax plan. As for Ivan, I can't believe you think it's socialist for those making $250,000 or more to pay 3% more in taxes. That is the group of folks whose accountants are extremely adept at "molding" the tax system to their favor(In effect, paying less taxes than everyone else). If you were in that tax bracket I would think you would know that and would be able to swallow a little more taxes in the name of FAIRNESS. Not to mention corporate tax cuts, that favor only the very wealthy, and are mainly just give aways for "retreats and team building" in swanky locations. In any case, you're missing the boat. Why would you want an angry, snarky old man like McCain representing us regardless of Hasn't G-Dub's embarassing performance taught you anything?
Comments by Big Mo - 05:49 17 Oct 2008
Obama Jeopardy Answer: Your Wallet. Question: Where is the only place Obama wants to drill? Answer: Change Question: What is all you’ll have left in your pocket if Obama gets elected. Answer: Wealthy Question: What is Obama’s definition of Joe the Plumber. Answer: Robin Hood Question: According to Obama, what is the President’s job description? Answer: Flip-flops Question: Imelda Marcos is to shoes, what Obama is to _____ ? Answer: A buffet Question: What does Obama see when he looks at your 401k, your IRA, your CD’s and your savings account? Answer: Rattlesnake Question: What has less venom that a Jeremiah Wright sermon? Answer: Osama bin Laden Question: Who has bombed 2 less targets than Bill Ayers? Answer: Half & Half Question: What is your new net pay vs. Obama’s new taxes? Answer: A nympho Question: Who will screw you less than Barack Obama?
Comments by Tamara - 13:58 17 Oct 2008
Interestingly, Joe the Plumber is a liar. Surprise, surprise. Not a plumber, isn't buying a plumbing business, well-known on conservative talk shows ... and owes the state of Ohio $1200 in back taxes. Sorry, Joe, Barack can't lower your Ohio taxes.
Comments by WildHorseIndep - 14:11 17 Oct 2008
I trust Joe more than either of the two who took painfully earned tax dollars from citizens and funded a drunken wall st. spa junket well into the future. Those who would vote for either McCain or Obama are loyal to party above practicality, above country, above anything reasonable.
Comments by Kim - 16:52 17 Oct 2008
re: "Joe the plumber is part of the problem that we are in now. The average worker makes between 8.00 and 20.oo dollars per hr. Joe the plumber charges anywhere from 60.00 to 120.00 per hr. Our nation is filled with greed." IF THE GOVERNMENT WASN'T SQUEEZING THE LAST DROP OF BLOOD OUT OF "SMALL BUSINESS" IN TAXES, THE COMPANY WOULDN'T HAVE TO CHARGE $60.00 - $100.00 LABOR PER HOUR!!! PEOPLE WHO OWN SMALL BUSINESSES ARE NOT RICH, THEY WORK LIKE DOGS TO PAY FOR THE POOR AND THE WEALTHY!!!
Comments by laurie town - 17:57 17 Oct 2008
LOOKS LIKE JOE THE PLUMBER REALLY IS MAKING A FOOL OF HIMSELF, AND HE SAID HE HOPED HE WASN'T. WHAT A JOKE..I AM ON ANDREWS SIDE, WHAT ABOUT HEALTH CARE?
Comments by Richard Bettger - 18:08 17 Oct 2008
Leave the poor guy alone. Is this media scrutiny of his entire life going to be the result whenever a citizen asks a tough question of a politician? It's time for the media types to put on their big-girl panties and get over it.
Comments by Robert - 18:27 17 Oct 2008
As stated by "Joe the Plumber", DO NOT PENALIZE ME FOR MAKING MONEY! If I work, I want the rewards. I want to get ahead in this world. I don't see why my acheivements should be taken from me and given to others. There are those in previous comments who are stateing the "Joe is the problem, he is greedy, he charges outlandish amounts". Wake up! Joe is working for a company. He wants to buy it one day. Working for the company he is lucky if he gets 1/3 of the hourly rate that you are charged. OK, I hear you say, well then it is the company who is greedy and they are over charging. Have you ever ran a business? Plumbers and others have to be bonded and insured. They don't want to loose there business because of an accident a worker caused that ruined your hoouse. Those policies are not cheap. Every service vehicle they own has to be fully insured and usually to a higher level of coverage than most drivers pay. Does the employer provide healthcare, if so, do you want to talk about that cost? The owner has workers, so he is probably paying into an unemployment program. Cost are high. It is expensive to run a company. Its a fact, some people are greedy. This is also a fact, most people just want to work and know that they are free to be as successful as their abilities allow them to be. Don't take from me to give to someone else, charity is an individual choice. Don't expect to be given what others have earned. Don't expect to be equal to those who earn a living if your are one who is receiving assistance. This country was made great by people who worked to make it great. We didn't ask anybody to grant us anything, WE EARNRD IT! And that is a heritage I am proud of and will fight to continue!
Comments by Rebecca - The American Can Do... Dream - 20:06 17 Oct 2008
I find it very disturbing that people are not putting the phrase "share the wealth" into perspective. I don't want to "share the wealth" I worked hard, against all odds, to obtain what I have why should I "share" it with anybody? I already pay enough in taxes every month to support two families in need of help through DSHS... what more do I owe? I have sent this same message to both presidential candidates... hope to get a response. I had my first child at 15, I had three by the time I was 21. I quit school in 8th grade, only completing the 7th grade. I recieved $25.00 a month in child support for many years. I worked up to 3 jobs at a time and went to school full time. I could not afford Harvard (I did not have friends in high places and my food stamps would not cover the tuition), but what I did was sufficiant. while I only make upwards of $88,000 a year now, I plan on making well over Obama's $250,000.00 limit and after all the sacrifices I have made in mine and my childrens lives Obama wants me to share the wealth? What is it people do not see? Do they not see that he is opening the door for socialism? Sure he is a good speaker, but his message is obsured, do people not see it? I am floored. Charisma is a dangerous thing, and that is all he has is charisma. People need to read his book, they need to read his wife's thesis. They need to understand you do not go to a racist church for over 20 years and get to say that you did not understand the messages of hate! You may attack Joe the Plumber, but you cannot attack me.... Joe and I both want the same thing, a free country where hard work prevails, not government control, socialism and handouts to those less inclined to work hard.
Comments by Mike - 20:20 17 Oct 2008
Funny thing is this 250,000 dollar figure they keep throwing around . Does anyone realize how may small bizs do 250,000 or more gross that doesn't mean profit and they employee most of the people in this country ( with exception of the federal gov.) Just because the gross revenue is over 250,000 does not make them rich
Comments by Bill Jesse - 22:46 17 Oct 2008
Here's what I have to say about Joe the plumber.He's trying to live the American dream. You work hard and reap the benefits of your labor. And you have the audacity to put your hand out and take from his family. That's what it's all about. Whats in it for me. Are you kidding. It's about time you take responsibility for your Owen lives and quite looking for a hand out.
Comments by Erica - 23:20 17 Oct 2008
So we hear about Joe the plumber a lot... I am not able to escape a marriage, due to lack of money, I cannot pay the $400 filing fee to get divorced. Even if I did, I could not support my two children out of my income. On top of that my two young kids both under age of 5 don't have health insurance, because the state will not approve us for Kidcare, our household income exceeds the income limit by $58. WHAT ABOUT MY TWO DAUGHTERS, JOE THE PLUMBER???????????? They have to face a verbally abusive father every day because nobody supports the little people, like us and you are worried you have to pay taxes on your golden showerhead...
Comments by Rebecca - The American Can Do... Dream - 23:30 17 Oct 2008
Erica How is your poor decision making my responsibility? I was beat half to death in my first marriage. I got out. I was 17 and uneducated. I did not turn to other people or my government to bail me out of the situation I got me into. You want better for your children, do what I and the rest of the nation did - WORK FOR IT.
Comments by Shocked - 23:48 17 Oct 2008
I'm shocked at the number of people blogging who think they're somehow owed a living. Socialism never works. Hawaii just discontinued its universal health care program, which is similar to Obama's plan. Why? Because people who could afford to pay for their own insurance quit and got on the free program with everyone else. The program couldn't support it. Any incentive there is for people to take care of themselves goes right out the window. Why should they work hard and have the fruit of their success taken away to "share the wealth" when they can stop working and get the same as everyone else who doesn't work at all?
Comments by UnaffiliatedIndie - 19:36 18 Oct 2008
Forget the character attacks, however deserved or not. Let’s deal with the actual issue that was raised. Here’s a relevant excerpt from the conservative Wall Street Journal’s article of OCTOBER 17, 2008, 'As Joe the Plumber Grows Famous, the Politics Get Murkier': "To reach a level that would be affected by Sen. Obama’s proposed tax increase, Mr. Smither said, a mom-and-pop plumbing company like Newell would have to clear $5 million in annual sales. [Joe’s company actually reports only $100,000 in sales.] Even if Mr. Wurzelbacher reaped taxable income from his business of $280,000 a year, he'd pay only about $900 more a year in taxes under Sen. Obama's plan, which would raise the tax rate on the income between $250,000 and $280,000 to 36% from 33%. [...] If Mr. Wurzelbacher earns the wages of a typical Ohio plumber, $40,600, and holds a $90,000 mortgage, he would see a TAX CUT (emphasis added) under Sen. Obama's plan of more than $1,000, compared with no tax reduction under Sen. McCain's. If he succeeds in buying the plumbing business where he works, he could see even more tax benefits, including Sen. Obama's proposed elimination of capital-gains taxes for small-business investment, a 50% tax credit to purchase health insurance for employees and a $3,000 tax credit for every new hire over the next two years." Other issues and ‘things we wish were true’ aside, better to acknowledge facts and deal with them objectively.
Comments by Tony nesci - 09:37 19 Oct 2008
RE: Taxes for those earning over $250K... Fred & Wilma earn $300K after all deductions. They own and operate a convenience store. Each put in 84 hours per week for a total of 168. At home, they HAD to hire on a housekeeper to do the cooking, laundry, cleaning, getting the kids in and out of school... Barney & Betty also earn $300K after all deductions. They are day traders, landlords and receive bank interest. Each puts in maybe 10 hours per week for a total of 20. At home, they hired on a housekeeper to do the cooking, laundry, cleaning, getting the kids in and out of school. They did this because they CAN... Next tax time BOTH couples will have let the housekeeper go. Fred & Wima because they HAVE to...Barney & Betty because they CAN! Poor housekeeper!
Comments by Janet Vaughan - 19:11 19 Oct 2008
STOP THE MADNESS!! As soon as the media has the same responsibilities as the rest of the citizens of this country, the patriotic, common sense USA will return to normal. STOP EXPLOITING PEOPLE TO SELL MEDIA!!
Comments by Christina M. - 20:19 19 Oct 2008
I love how all the Obama supporters think that everyone who is backing McCain is racist. (Note the sarcasm). Now that is what I call ignorance. McCain/Palin '08
Comments by Vern G. Williamsen - 20:50 19 Oct 2008
Why, with all the fuss being made by some over the supposed Islamic name Barack, has no one noted that the name belonged to a Biblical Hebrew hero? See Judges, book 5 and the story of Deborah and Barack.
Comments by Frank Mitchell - 02:43 20 Oct 2008
AN ODE TO JOE THE PLUMBER. The Outlook wasn't brilliant for McCainville that day; The score stood 51% to 43%, with but one inning more to play. And then when Palin exploded, and Bush did the same, A sickly silence fell upon the patrons of the game. A straggling few got up to go in deep despair. The rest Clung to that hope which springs eternal in the human breast; They thought, if only Joe the Plumber could get but a whack at that - We'd put up even money, now, with Joe at the bat. But Rush preceded Joe, as did also Sean Hannity; And the former was a lulu and the latter was a flake; So upon that stricken multitude grim melancholy sat, For there seemed but little chance of Joe getting to the bat. But Rush on diet pills drove a single, to the wonderment of all, And Hannity, the much despised, tore the cover off the ball; And when the dust had lifted, and the men saw what had occurred, There was Rush safe at second and Sean a-hugging third. Then from 5,000 throats and more there rose a lusty yell; It rumbled through the valley, it rattled in the dell; It knocked upon the mountain and recoiled upon the flat, For Joe, the mighty plumber, was advancing to the bat. There was ease in Joe’s manner as he set up Obama; There was pride in Joe’s manner and a smirk on Joe’s face. And when, responding to the cheers, he lightly doffed his hat, No stranger in the crowd could doubt 'twas Joe at the bat. Ten thousand eyes were on him as he claimed he was undecided; Five thousand tongues applauded when he took the campaign check; . Then while the anointed one answered from the hip, Slime rose up in Joe’s eye, a sneer curled Joe’s lip. And now the brilliant answer came hurtling through the air, And Joe was non-responsive with haughty grandeur there. Close by the unlicensed plumber the quip unheeded sped- "That ain't my style," said Joe. "Strike one," the umpire said. From the benches, black with people, there went up a muffled roar, Like the beating of the storm-waves on a stern and distant shore. "Terrorist. Not American" shouted someone on the stand; And its likely they'd a-killed him had not Joe raised his hand. With a smile of Christian charity great Joe’s visage shone; He stilled the rising tumult; he bade the game go on; He signaled another question, and once more the truth flew; But Joe still ignored it, and the umpire said, "Strike two." "Arab" cried the maddened thousands, and echo answered fraud; But one scornful look from Joe and the audience was awed. They saw his face grow stern and cold, they saw his muscles strain, And they knew that Joe wouldn't let the next response go by again. The sneer is gone from Joe’s lip, his teeth are clenched in hate; He pounds with cruel violence his socket wrench upon the plate. And now Obama holds the ball, and now he lets it go, And now the air is shattered by the force of Joe’s blow. Oh, somewhere in this favored land the sun is shining bright; The band is playing somewhere, and somewhere hearts are light, And somewhere men are laughing, and somewhere children shout; But there is no joy in McCainville - mighty Joe has struck out.
Comments by James W. Feger - 08:23 20 Oct 2008
It would seem that those Democrats defecating acorns to fertilize voter registration fraud, have politically corrected the value/definition of the word "problems". P = Pelosi R = Reid O = Obama B = Biden L = Liberal E = Elitist M = Moronic S = Socialist A value that a person assumes as President with no overiding factor other than the effective use of language, would be an obama-nation in the White House. What has Obama done? If he doesn't have the will power to stop smoking cigarettes for good, he doesn't have the strenght of mind to run a country I live in!
Comments by Rebecca - 17:10 20 Oct 2008
Bottom line is I would benefit from Obama's tax structure financially. However, I am not so selfish as to allow "that one" to buy my vote into a socialist platform. He is a socialist, no doubt about it. So to save a few dollars people are going to vote our country out of existance... shame on all of you!
Comments by Mark Jones - 19:32 20 Oct 2008
Take the lesser of two evils. Don't be picky about McCain. Ask yourself --who has such huge sums of money to back Obama? Is his funding really coming from piggy banks? Why is his campaign as organized as a military coup? Why doesn't it matter at all that he associates with a virulently ant-white Pastor and a terrorist, among many others? What is Obama's agenda? What does he want to do? The more intelligent and competent he is, the more dangerous this could be. Is he just a far left leader, who wants to redistribute middle class wealth to the unemployed? What if Obama is actually Bin Laden's man in the white house? What if this whole fiasco is an Al Qaeda coup --a quiet coup? Change. Some types of change are worse than what you might think is the worst situation. I think of a film I saw in France where a young woman, struggling in France was befriended by a man she had just met. He told her that she could get a good job in Switzerland. Once they arrived, she was forcibly confined and used as a sex slave, unable to escape even to commit suicide. I'm sure she wished that she hadn't gone for change quite so quickly. What is Obama's agenda? Is he telling the truth, or just saying what we wish to hear? Obama's interest was to work as an activist for poor blacks. That means that he incited discontent, envy, greed, so that people could clamour for money earned by someone else. Obama has middle class family connections. But does it follow that he supports the middle class? What if he hates them the way his nearly white preacher hates all whites? Also, how do we know that Obama does not continue to have contact with Reverend Wright? Why is Obama so smooth? Why did Obama betray the woman who gave him her senate seat? What if electing Obama is actually pretty much the same as allowing Bin Laden into the white house? Wouldn't it be better to know Obama before electing him? Only a con man gets upset if you don't trust him right away. I haven't been thrilled by McCain, but I'd take the lesser of two evils.
Comments by Brenda Maxson - 06:01 21 Oct 2008
As far as I'm concerned you might as well take both Mccain and Obama and give them a dessert island to fight over. Niether has a clue about the United States and what is going on and what the people need . Poor Joe the plummer only made a/b $250,000.00 last yr! Maybe they need to talk to the people that made less than $100,000.00 and how they are going to pay for insurance and how they are going plan retirements, or the dreams they have for thier kids futures. That the dreams they had a/b own a home came ture only to be snatched away in forecloser, because some DUMB _SS DEMANDED THE BANKS GIVE THEM LOW INTEREST RATES THAT WOULD JUMP OUT OF SIGHT AND THEY WOULD LOOSE EVERYTHING THEY HAD WORK FOR.Of course they took the chance they want better things for thier families, hopes and dreams but instead of america being the best place in the world to live we are loosing ground fast with the people we (?) have trusted to do the best for us ( or themselves ). I wish they would start doing the job they promised Americans they would when they took thier oath all of them congress, Governers, mayors, you name it all of them work for all the people.
Comments by smallz - 14:34 23 Oct 2008
Obama is bad news if he wants to rob me and everyone else I know that are already struggling to make ends meet so the poorer people of our country that can not make more for reaons they could have prevented can afford to live comfortably. Ha ha ha haha! That is a bunch of Bull****. Obama will rob America and keep all the money to himslf and his terrorist friends. He does not care about lower and middle income families, if I had been Joe the Plumber, I would have told him he is full of s**t and he could go f*** himself. I am a Marine and we like to say it how it is, so please excuse my blatant vulgarity as I felt it neccessary to get my point accross. I am not as silver tongued as O'bama is nor as elequent a speaker as he is. Have a great Holloween in the 'States I will try to have a good one here in Okinawa, Japan.
 
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