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so what is the solution?
greece changes it's province to another name!
or Macedonia changes its name, but to what? Hows about a name change to Greece might get the greeks flustered.

On the ancient times Greece (Hellas-Hellenes)was city-state,every one know!Makedonian,Tracian,Thessali,Pelloponisian,Athens....but all they are Greeks!Is very clear that name-game by Gruevski they be over,is very clear that,Fyrom they lost to many things,with this idiotic politic......

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Sorry 141, but there are no Roman, Byzantine, nor Ottoman records that mention an "ethnic macedonian" race. Also, the EU recently set a condition of freedom of the press for Skopje....you should follow the EU example and be skeptical what ever media that comes out of that country.

Sorry David check your records again. The name "Albanian" was formalized well after the the Slavs entered the region and as for your statement on the records of identity in the Macedonian region, the people always identified themselves as Macedonian who were Macedonians.

Sorry but no Ottoman records ever state the existance of a "ethnic macedonian" entity in the region. Also, the ancient Macedonians called the capital city of today's Province of Macedona "THESSALONIKI", NOT solun. Also, Roman, Byzantine and Ottoman records show that Albanians have been in the region far longer than the Slavs so they have more of a valid claim to "macedonianism" than you do.

The Balkans never really recovered from the bickering of the Balkan Wars a century ago ...

Therefore, we Macedonians had to recover for ourselves!

Who is to say when I have bulgarian heritage when my grandfather fought bulgarian ocupation forces in WW2 ?

Who is to say I have greek heritage when his father's tombstone near Solun (Thesaloniki) was destroyed in the 1930s ?

Who is to say how i can and cannot call myself after 5 generations of misery and fight for freedom? [...]

Read the full comment

The Balkans, my dear friends, never really recovered from the Macedonian Question. And probably never will. Maybe, in the end, we were all better of under Ottoman rule, with our medieval mentality.

The Slavs came into the region during the Medieval Ages thus the Albanians who who been in the macedonian region for far longer have more valid claims as "macedonians" then the slavs

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This comment has been removed by the moderator because it contained foul, abusive or discriminating language

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For those who think they know history.Those who claim the Macedonians are Greek or Bulgarians,you must be very uneducated,or you dont know your own identity.Macedonia pre-existed both Greece and Bulgaria.Alexander was not Greek,he was Macedonian.Have you saw the show in England when the question came up of Alexanders identity?The answere was "Greek",they lost thousands of dollars for the wrong answere.It should have been Macedonian!You can write trash as much as you want,the facts are facts.Now,go and learn history undisturbed,or better still,not fabricated as you love to do.I would like to remind you,Greece is the largest history fabricators on this planet [...]

Read the full comment earth,just look at their fabrication of financial situation,still comming,they are not fully truthful with EU.History repeats itself,does it not?.I wont bore you furthere,but look at your selfs,are you realy know what you are talking about?Have a nice day!.

And I say shame on you for being an ultra nationalist who needlessly causes problems with all his neighbours. You disgrace your own Bulgarian ancestors by denying your own ethnic roots.

Just to be clear here not everyone in FYROM is a lunatic ultra nationalist. There are many many decent people. Ljubco Georgievski your former Prime Minister is one of them. He admits the truth about FYROM's Bulgarian past but is threatened with death and called a "traitor" for simply speaking the truth.

"To everyone of us it is clear that this [...]

Read the full comment entire thesis, this entire thesis for ethnogenesis from Macedonians, it isn't so. Ancient Macedonians until today is founded on a series of mystifications and semi-historical truths which are emitted from Republic of Macedonia and that by using and abusing the media.[...] "Why do Skopjans not ask how much Dardanian blood there is in them[..] how much Thracian blood there is in them[...] how much Illyrian blood there is in them[...]how much Paeonian blood there is in them.[...]I do not see anyone of us get into a fight over the amount of Paeonian blood in us, or God forbid, Dardinian one?[...]Ancient Macedonia does not match with today's Macedonia at all.[...]Ancient Macedonia, we must clarify it once, is literally in entirety in today's Greece.[...] If we are looking at ethnogenesis then we should open at another place. Therefore we should discuss how much we are Paeoneans. " (Ljubco Georgievski, former Prime Minister of FYROM, FYROM A1 TV June 2009) youtube(dot)com/user/Srbolog#play/uploads/1/-HvKPiLYZCI

"Why are we ashamed and flee from the truth that whole positive Macedonian revolutionary tradition comes exactly from exarchist part of Macedonian people? We shall not say a new truth if we mention the fact that everyone, Gotse Delchev, Dame Gruev, Gjorche Petrov, Pere Toshev - must I list and count all of them - were teachers of the Bulgarian Exarchate in Macedonia.'
(Ljubco Georgievski)

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And who triggered the EuroCrisis because of false accounting ? It wasn't the British, or the Germans, and certainly not the Poles.

It was the Greeks, believing in their own myth that Europe (a Greek word) owed them a living !

Grow up - Greece has by now lost all EU credibility that it ever had, and all the NATO chief at the head of this article was doing was being polite to the host country which he was visiting. Nothing more.

Da svidaniya (pardon my bad Greek) [...]

Read the full comment

Blugodonia, I see you brought your Greek buddies back into the game. Your and there asserations that Macedonia is pure Greek is beginning to wear thin. Your quotes always seem to come from people who were paid off by the Greek government. As for Misirkov, his quotes also went like this, "I hope it will not be held against me that I, as a Macedonian, place the interests of my country before all".

You my friend are a Slav, you speak a Slavic language your culture is mostly Slavic and you live in ancient Thracian lands, [...]

Read the full comment the only thing that you got from the Bulgers were their name and their aristocracy. So come on down to the real world and realize that Macedonians now and in ancient times were just that, Macedonians, with different languages, cultures,and societies over their 3000 year history.

As for the Greeks, some live in this mythical world of their Gods were they believe everything is and comes from them and we should be grateful we live amongst them.

As the saying goes, if your not with us your against us, and the Greeks seem to take it at full heart, as their attacks against David or Epaminodas seem to be relentless on this site

apparently some scorpion bit him in an airport and has been bitter about it all this time.

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Temper, temper - what's "racist" about telling the truth for once ? Greece has traded on its reputation as the "cradle of civilisation" for far too long, whereas it's more the "cradle of corruption" in reality. Somehow I think Angela Merkel and the German government would fully agree with me, as would the Dutch.

Tot ziens, mijnheer/mevrouw

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Sorry - for those of us who don't understand any Turkish - "Yunanistan" is the Turkish name for Greece. Tesekkur Ederim - thank you - efkharisto polu.

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Can't help thinking from my Olympian heights that "Churchill" needs to learn to count with both hands, using all ten fingers. He comments first of all that Epaminondas has been on this site for "five years", and then in his next posting he makes it "a decade".

Now in both Ancient and Modern Greek the word for "five" is "pente" and the word for ten "deka", and "decade" is indeed "dekaetia". So have I missed some really subtle point of mathematics, or has Churchill not learned to count with both hands yet (as his namesake apparently [...]

Read the full comment genuinely could not)?

Interested to know....parakalo

As a true Macedonian of northern Greek decent, I am disgusted by the Vardar Slavs trying to take my heritage away from me and my kind by claiming they are Macedonians and that Macedonians are different from Greeks. They have lied for so long to themselves and the world that they actually believe they are Macedonian. You Vardar Slavs are trying so hard to do portray yourselves to the world as Macedonians at my Greek Macedonian expense. The international community should comdemn you for these lies. You are trying to usurp my identity. This is immoral and unethical. Admit to [...]

Read the full comment yourselves that you are not and never have been Macedonians. Shame on you Vardar Slavs!

I can claim no credit - Karamanlis and Nea Demoktratia did it for me, though PASOK is not guiltless in the 2001 Greek Euro membership Athens conspiracy.

Suggest you read up on a few more facts before posting further comments.....

What you David seem to not have worked out is that you have been preaching the demise of Greece for over a decade now. Fortunately you are not a prophet nor a meteorologist as you would do really poorly in that line of work.

What none of you seem to have worked out yet is that the current EU Treaty amendments will lose Greece its veto, and it can no longer veto Macedonian EU accession under that name. The Treaty amendments were prompted by Greek submission of false financial figures in order to join the Eurozone, and the recent Euro crisis as a result. Germany in particular will never forgive this....

Every story has more than one side Anthony and the Skopje government has on more than one occasion try to interfere with Greek affairs (eg. so-called "makendonski" minority)

Practice what your preach

We all know what the Greek view of Macedonia's name is,but what's the Turkish view? What is Turkey's official opinion of the Macedonian name dispute? Does Turkey say that Macedonia should be called Ottoman Macedonia,because it was part of the Ottoman Empire,over a hundred years ago? Perhaps Turkey thinks it should be called Turkish Macedonia since it was controlled by Ottoman Turks over a hundred years ago. I think an ideal solution would be to name it the Socialist Republic Of Macedonia. Then there will be no way to confuse the Socialist Republic of Macedonia with the any Greek territory [...]

Read the full comment named Macedonia. I think Greece should pay a penalty because they have interfered with Macedonian affairs for so long. Greece should stop interfering with Macedonian affairs,and they should accept the name Macedonia.

@Greek Macedonian

Not all of them are crazy ultra nationalists (Georgievski is definitely cogent) but a fair chunk of them are poorly educated spearchuckers in deep denial about their own ethnic Bulgarian past.

Bulgarians were originally in FYROM"s corner but I think many have woken up to the fact the ultra nationalists pose a existential threat to Bulgaria too (since ever since Yugoslav communists FYROM have been siphoning away huge numbers of Bulgarian citizens to be reprogrammed into "ethnic Macedonians")

The FYROM government constantly steal historical figures from [...]

Read the full comment other ethnic groups in the region and rebrand them into "ethnic Macedonians".(since they have no history they are trying to show continuity to ancient Macedonia)

They rename historical figures into something they themselves did not self-identify. (e.g Alexander almost certainly would have slaughtered anyone that called him anything other than Greek and Tsar Samual would have likely done the same to someone who claimed he wasn't Bulgarian)

The Gruevskis and Ristos do this most famously to ancient Greeks and middle age Bulgarians but I've even heard a few of them do the same to Serbs and even the occasional Albanian (e.g. I had a good laugh recently listening to one claim Mother Teresa as a "ethnic Macedonian")

It's almost like Gruevski wants to trigger another violent Balkan conflict. If the extremists keep on pushing the historical gibberish and vitriol against anyone that questions their historical narrative... I see another conflict as inevitable.

We live in the information age and Gruevski still acts like he's Stalin (where historical data could be controlled by the state under the communists). No matter how much he wishes though ancient and middle age artifacts haven't rewritten themselves from Bulgarian or Greek.

My best guess at this juncture is FYROM will eventually evapourate with pieces being annexed to neighbouring states. It might take a few more decades though (as ethnic Bulgarian and Albanian demographics come to dominate FYROM's political landscape they'll act more responsibly to end the needless fighting over over Gruevski's historical fraud)

As a true Macedonian of Greek decent, I abhore the fact that the Vardar Slavs are trying to usurpe my heritage and identity with their propaganda around the world. They truly believe the lies they spread. I abhore this deceit and the world should too. Shame on all of you Vardar Slavs!

Never mind Epaminondas (David) silly comments, he has been putting racist rubbish on this site for over 5 years. The fact that he searches all day on the net every day of his life for any news article that "proves" his theory Greece is losing is an obvious sign of psychological illness. Poor David, he makes a very bad prophet!

@Epaminondas

Neither Greece nor Bulgaria have "lost" anything. In fact 20 years later the name/identity dispute still rages- despite widespread recognition for FYROM.

The thrill of opposing Greece is fast starting to wear away for many of FYROM's prior supporters now that they see the current FYROM government lies and lies about their own history.

Sooner or later FYROM nationalists will need to face their ethnic Bulgarian past of face their country imploding in ethnic conflict like Yugoslavia did (since many ethnic Bulgarians, Serbs, and Albanians in FYROM [...]

Read the full comment don't want to erase their ethnic roots to play along with Gruevski's megalomania as an "ancient Macedonian warrior").

The bottom line is in 20 years the accredited historians of the world (outside of FYROM) have not rewritten western history one inch to suit FYROM's bizarre historical narrative. Countless ancient Macedonian artifacts, written virtually all in Greek, will not rewrite themselves into FYROM's former Bulgarian dialect Yugoslav communists modified and renamed "Macedonian"). Those artifacts will not stop showing ancient Macedonians self-identified with Hellenism no matter what Gruevski how many lies he teaches FYROM's poor children.

e.g.
"Men of Athens... In truth I would not tell it to you if I did not care so much for all Hellas (Greece); I myself am by ancient descent a Greek, and I would not willingly see Hellas change her freedom for slavery. " (Speech of Alexander I of Macedonia upon being admitted to the Olympic games as a self-identifying Greek, Herodotus, " Histories", 9.45, ed. A. D. Godley)

I have no clue why so many FYROM nationalists are so ashamed of their ethnic Bulgarian roots. Do they see something wrong with going back to calling themselves Bulgarian and closing these issues once and for all?

Krste Misirkov; “But now cries from the Macedonians can be heard: we are Bulgarians, we are more Bulgarians than the Bulgarians themselves. …….. You could be victors over Bulgaria and impose on it all sorts of treaties but this cannot change our conviction, our consciousness that we are not Serbians, that up till now we have called ourselves Bulgarians and this is what we are today and this is what we want to be called in the future.”

@411

Whaaa whaa whaa. Talk about childish.

"We are a Slav people and our language is closely related to Bulgarian.'(FYROM´s Ambassador to Canada Gyordan Veselinov in interview to Ottawa Citizen Newspaper 24 February 1999)

You are sadly stereotypical of certain FYROM nationalists in complete denial over their ethnic Bulgarian heritage. (even convincing yourself that a Bulgarian dialect in a completely different language group has anything more to do with ancient Macedonia.. than Polish)

Like with all ultra nationalists since you don't actually have a [...]

Read the full comment historical leg to stand on you just end up demonizing whomever bothers to point out your current government's historical fraud (and irredentist behavior based on that historical fraud)

You write: "{All the Macedonians are trying to do is live in peace"

Indeed they are. Unfortunately you former self-identifying ethnic Bulgarians of the former Yugoslavia seemingly don't want to live in peace with them. (seeing as you are trying to usurp the identity of Macedonians in other countries)

You write: "Macedonians will keep their name and identity forever, as they have through the centuries."

More ultra-nationalist historical gibberish. The people in your country used to freely self-identify as ethnic Bulgarians in the 19th century champ. How many times can the historians of the world say this before you clue in you are the victim of historical propaganda?

FYROM changed its ethnic name once, you will change it again. (when the decent people in FYROM finally get sick of all the government lying and start ignoring national extremists that bizarrely deny their own ethnic Bulgarian roots)

"The creation of the Macedonian nation, for almost half of a century, was done in a condition of single-party dictatorship. In those times, there was no difference between science and ideology, so the “Macedonian” historiography, unopposed by anybody, comfortably performed a selection of the historic material from which the “Macedonian” identity was created. There is nothing atypical here for the process of the creation of any modern nation, except when falsification from the type of substitution of the word “Bulgarian” with the word “Macedonian” were made.
(Denko Maleski)
utrinski(dot)com.mk/?ItemID=C7A7DD4ECD45C946BF6573284EC01164

News item today from London's main newspaper (Evening Standard):
http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard/article-23894984-spirit-of-the-routemaster-lives-on-in-the-heart-of-macedonia.do

It concerns UK-derived double-deck buses to be run, not in Salonika, but in Skopje....

'Fraid the "name game battle" has been lost for Greece in the UK press, which now sees "Macedonia" as the independent republic centred on Skopje.

Blugodonia, it is you and people like you, who use the word hate and terrorists, who try and stir up emotional nationalistic propoganda feelings.

All the Macedonians are trying to do is live in peace, with their own name. It is the stubburn resistence of some Bulgarians and Greeks, who think they have some exclusive right over a name, which is different from what they call themselves and a right over which people can call themselves.

This would be laughable except Greece has a veto in the E.U. which makes a mockery [...]

Read the full comment of the whole situation.

You remind me of babies when they don't get their way , start crying and cry so loud that the parents appease them even when their wrong.

So scream all you want , because Macedonians will keep their name and identity forever, as they have through the centuries.

@141

FYROM ultra nationalists constantly take the term "Macedonian" our of context. (in the 19th century some Greeks, Bulgarians, Serbs self-identified as "Macedonian" in regional sense not ethnic)

If you doubt historians around the planet that say this (only conveniently believing the historical gibberish of ultra-nationalists from your own country - that lie about even their own ethnic Bulgarian roots)... then please feel free to point to the line that says "ethnic Macedonians".


en.wikipedia(dot)org/wiki/Demographic_history_of_Macedonia#Statistical_data

How is it possible so many 19th [...]

Read the full comment century census takers, from many nations, using many methodologies missed the existence of "ethnic Macedonians"? (but had no problem whatsoever finding Albanians, Serbs, Jews, Turks... and of course Bulgarians)

"Oral history" is just a synonym for "historial propaganda" and "myths"

Ultranationalists like you are in denial of your own ethnic Bulgarian past. No amount of hate directed against Bulgarians, Greeks and the historians of the world will change the past. Ultra nationalists like you blame everyone but yourselves for the bizarre historical claims of your current extremist regime.

US Anthropologist Loring Danforth (and friend of MHRMI):

"The history of the construction of a Macedonian national identity does not begin with Alexander the Great in the fourth century [...]

Read the full comment B.C. or with Saints Cyril and Methodius in the ninth century A.D. as Macedonian nationalist historians often claim. ("The Macedonian Conflict: Ethnic Nationalism in a Transnational World", Princeton Univ Press, December 1995 p.56)

"Krste Misirkov, who had clearly developed a strong sense of his own personal national identity as a Macedonian and who outspokenly and unambiguously called for Macedonian linguistic and national separatism, acknowledged that a Macedonian national identity was a relatively recent historical development." (p.63)

"The political and military leaders of the Slavs of Macedonia at the turn of the century seem not to have heard Misirkov's call for a separate Macedonian national identity; they continued to identify themselves in a national sense as BULGARIANS rather than Macedonians.(p.64)

So, some Bulgarians pretended to be Macedonians, so what. Everbody knows that the Greeks, Bulgarians and Serbs sent their teachers and opened their schools in Macedonia, in the 1800's to try and brainwash Macedonians on their own nationalistic ideas.

I'm sorry my friend I have oral history on my side as well conventional history, such as Ottoman passports that document Macedonian as ethnicity .

Wouldnt be funny to you if someone was trying to steal your culture and identity

You can't imagine how this kind of nationalist mumbo-jumbo sounds to the outsiders. Would be funny if it would not be so scary.

Ivan Hadzhinikolov of IMRO wrote in his memoirs some of the principles of the MRO's foundation. (in short IMRO was originally created to make it appear like a local organization but was actually intended to support Bulgaria)

1. The revolutionary organization should be established within Macedonia and should act there, so that the Greeks and Serbs couldn't label it as a tool of the Bulgarian government.

2. Its founders should be locals and living in Macedonia.

3. The political motto of the organization should be the autonomy of [...]

Read the full comment Macedonia.

4. The organization should be secret and independent, without any links with the governments of the liberated neighborly states, and

5. From the Macedonian emigration in Bulgaria and the Bulgarian society, only moral and material help for the struggle of the Macedonian revolutionaries should be required.

Despite IMRO's claims of representing everyone in practice the organization from top to bottom was Bulgarians with virtually no other ethnic elements of the region being included.

Tararchev wrote:
"We talked a long time about the goal of this organization and at last we fixed it on autonomy of Macedonia with the priority of the Bulgarian element. We couldn't accept the position for "direct joining to Bulgaria" because we saw that it would meet big difficulties by reason of confrontation of the Great powers and the aspirations of the neighbouring small countries and Turkey. It passed through our thoughts that one autonomous Macedonia could easier unite with Bulgaria subsequently and if the worst comes to the worst, that it could play a role as a unificating link of a federation of Balkan people.

"Macedonian national thought emerged towards the late 18th and early 19th century and was fully expressed in the 1840s; it was defined as a programme in early 1874"

It wasn't "fully expressed" in 1840 as you falsely claim. A handful of quote minded crackpots doesn't make a national identity.

In the 1840s the vast majority of people in what is today's FYROM freely self-identified as Bulgarians (there were also more Serbs and Turks back then)

Even as late 19th century the population widely still self-identified as ethnic Bulgarians [...]

Read the full comment (including the majority of people involved in the 1903 uprising).

FYROM nationalists endlessly take "Macedonian" out of context. There were several movements in Macedonia region to free it from the Turks (Serb, Greek and Bulgarian). All of them tried to annex to one country or another. (by the locals who aligned with one nations or another)

IMRO, almost to a man were ethnic Bulgarians. They tried to trick the powers at the time into supporting them but failed.

The historical propaganda got carried away under Yugoslav communists though. Tito feared he would lose the Vardar region to Bulgaria so instilled an "ethnic Macedonian" (rather than "ethnic Bulgarian" consciousness in Macedonia like Cypriot Greeks are Cypriot and Greeks) Tito passed many laws making it practically illegal to declare their Bulgarian ethnic consciousness. (many Bulgarians were arrested and some even killed)

Unfortunately FYROM citizens blame Greeks and Bulgarians for the propaganda crimes of Yugoslav communists.

"And whether Bulgarian consciousness exists in Macedonia, this is a historical legacy. We’re now writing our history. We can’t write that until 1940 we were Bulgarians and after 1940 Macedonians.”

Krste Crvenkovski (President of the Central Committee of the Union of Communists in the Socialist Republic of Macedonia) to Todor Zhivkov (First Secretary of the Central Committee of the Communist Party of Bulgaria) – May 19, 1967.
tinyurl(dot)com/y2n846j

Krste Misirkov was not the founder of the Macedonian national idea, as has often been suggested, but only the proponent of Macedonian national aspirations (Za makedonckite raboti,1903, and Vardar, 1905). Macedonian national thought emerged towards the late
18th and early 19th century and was fully expressed in the 1840s; it was defined as a programme in early 1874 and became affirmed on the international scene in
1878, and the ‘Lozars’ (1890-1894) in Sofia and the ‘Vardar’ members (1893-1894) in Belgrade were only the public reflection of what had been taking place
in Macedonia itself, [...]

Read the full comment in particular in the movement led by Teodosija Gologanov.

Blugodonia, I will accept your premise when you start calling yourselves Thracians and the Greeks Achaeans

@sasha

I honestly bad for FYROM nationalists like you. Please know when I attack FYROM I'm not attacking moderates like you. It's the extremists like Gruevski and Risto who bizarrely hide from their own ethnic Bulgarian heritage that are the problem.

They are needlessly antagonizing all their neighbours with their "we are ancient Macedonians" historical gibberish not to mention the countless references to "united Macedonia"... that include pieces of Bulgaria and Greece attached. What exactly did Gruevski expect a neighbour to do when he teaches children in FYROM that neighbouring states are [...]

Read the full comment "occupied territory".

If the ultra-nationalists keep up the hostile tone and historical propaganda, its very plausible Bulgarians, Serbs, Greeks, and Albanians will eventually start working together to completely erase FYROM off the map (win win for everyone except the nutty "ancient Macedonian warriors"... who will discover others can use the words of conflict too)

@141

Ultra-nationalists like you need to "get over it". Macedonia is a region not an ethnicity. You are no more "ethnic Macedonian" than a 19th century Turk living in your capital Uskub was.

Stop lying about your ethnic Bulgarian past and find a unique identity for yourselves that doesn't attempt to usurp that of your neighbours and threaten their territorial integrity. The extremism and historical propaganda of the current FYROM government is only creating the conditions for future conflict.

No one is going to give up their ethnic [...]

Read the full comment identity and territory because ultra-nationalist like you are ashamed of your own roots.

Krste Misirkov:

“The first objection — that a Macedonian Slav nationality HAS NEVER EXISTED — may be very simply answered as follows: what has not existed in the past may still be brought into existence later, provided that the appropriate historical circumstances arise.”
misirkov(dot)org/can_macedonia.htm


“We are BULGARIAN more than the Bulgarians in Bulgaria. The population of Skopje is pure Bulgarian. The Serbian not only want to colonize Macedonia with Serbs from other part of Yugoslavia, but they wish to kill our Bulgarian consciousness."

macedoniainfo(dot)com/Krste_Misirkov.htm

@141

Ultra-nationalists like you are in denial about your own past. Your country is even mostly situated in what was ancient Paeonia in antiquity. The majority of your ancestors freely self-identified as ethnic BULGARIANS.

Nobody should be confused, Macedonians are Macedonians, just as Greeks are Greeks and Bulgarians are a Slavic people who were conquered by the Bulgars and do not have any thing left of the Bulger identity but their name.

One must truly think, before answering on this site, as 2,500 years of history can be manipulated by nationalistic aggression shown by some Balkan countries over the last century.

It seems mystifying that everybody agrees that there is a Macedonia, but the name can not be used because it offends their ethnicity. Get over [...]

Read the full comment it, anybody in the four regions of Macedonia can use it's name including The Republic of Macedonia.

Gruevski now believes that we have no red-lines, though this has been his constant nationalistic undertone. If there were no red-lines then the dispute would have been resolved nearly 20 years ago. As long as our jingoistic diasporic controlled government continues to play the deaf-dumb and blind card it is no wonder that so many of our fellow neighbours are utterly confused with what is our identity. When finally a government comes into power that will distance itself from the naive, simplistic antiquisationist policies of the current regime and finaly accept that we are and always have been a Slavic [...]

Read the full comment people, this nation will always twitter its way into the 21st millennium.

Long live the glorious words of that famous revolutionary Gotse Delchev, " while our land Macedonia will be a contested ground of identities and faiths our Bulgarian roots will never be compromised, for we like all other Macedonians from different ethnic backgrounds will stand fast until the Turkish yoke is overthrown."
Just as Greeks, Bulgarians, Albanians, Vlachs, Romas, Torbeshi, Turks, etc., all have a right to be known as Macedonians so too does our nationalisitc regime in skopje finally realise they cannot monopolise a regional name for the benefit of a bunch of jingoists (mainly in the diaspora).

Nearly every uni campus (those which are not under governemt survelliance) in ROM are unified that we the modern Macedonian nation are descended from our Bulgarian kin and like every other Balkan peoples have many influences that have shaped our modern culture.

Long live the Macedonian Youth.

Dude,

we've heard your Risto/Gandato historical narrative a zillion times before. You can say it a million more times and it still won't be true. It wasn't the western world under communist information control for 50 years. It was you.

I wish I could splash ultra-nationalists like you in the face with some cold water of reality to finally wake you up. You are the one's oppressing your own ethnic Bulgarian roots!

Regardless if Bulgarians or Greeks are the direct descendants of ethnic Tomatoes... YOU ARE NOT A [...]

Read the full comment DIRECT DESCENDANT OF ANCIENT MACEDONIANS.

Capache?

I am not aware of single (non-FYROM related) accredited historian on this planet that claims such a ridiculous thing. Only someone insane or a complete imbecile every historian on earth is wrong... and only nationalists in his own country are right.

Please just find a name for yourselves and come to grips with your ethnic Bulgarian past so we can all put this behind us. My advice is just listen to the words of Krste Misirkov.

“If the question of racial similarity and difference between Bulgarians and Macedonians comes to be resolved on the basis of the national name, language and history, there is no doubt that we should resolve it as a Greek priest did in 1804; author of a four-language dictionary Greek, Bulgarian, Rumanian and Albanian and who regarded as Bulgarian the Western Macedonian dialect. Therefore when in Macedonia and Bulgaria there was no mention of the Bulgarian Exarchate, the Greeks, obviously well acquainted with the Balkan nationalities, do not make any distinction between a Bulgarian, a Macedonian and a Macedonian Slav. We the Macedonians, cannot, and have no reason to ignore this and similar facts, which can be quoted by the hundreds. We cannot ignore them because to do so means to distort our history, to hide the truth and to deceive ourselves.”

"Greek Monopolization pt3" that is absurd and the most preposterous comment yet in the history of Sofia Echo. If anyone is doing monopolisation it is the Skopjan government who will not accept the existence of Greek and Bulgarian Macedonians. Do get a life.

As stated before viewers, all articles related to Macedonia are constantly looked at by paid Greeks 24/7 in order to minimize the Macedonian voice, as illustrated by Bulgodonia's quick and repetitive response.

Just for further reference Germans, French, Brits and other EU members: When Greece needs another bail, its because they have exhausted all their funds on Anti-Macedonian propaganda.

As for a response to Bulgodonia, your need to immediately run to history to show an argument/defense for Greece's stance is purely pathetic. Greece's argument is that Macedonia has territorial claims on Greece. [...]

Read the full comment It is interesting that Greece claims this knowing that in the beginning of the Greek revolution in the 1800s they viewed Macedonia as a separate entity (as in separate from Greece). But after the "Megali Idea", created by a non-Greek Vlach, Greece had territorial aspirations to a region that did not belong to it, also known as Macedonia, taking a piece of it in 1913. Also note the secret documents in the 1990s found between Greece and Serbia discussing dividing the Republic of Macedonia between the two. And then you continue to rant things that don't have any substance or evidence behind it. If you want to continue arguing that Macedonians were Bulgarians, you ignore the history of the Ottoman Empire in which identity was based on religion. Since the BULGARIAN Exarchate controlled the region then that was the name of the inhabitants. Yet you fail to recognize that the "Bulgars" of Macedonia viewed themselves as separate from the Bulgarians in Bulgaria proper, and attempted numerous times to create a MACEDONIAN church.

Case in point: http://i25.servimg.com/u/f25/13/95/49/70/rrr_bm12.jpg

And thousands of others just like that which are conveniently taken off of Wikipedia (by whom?)

Dude,

In the 19th century the region used to be owned by the OTTOMAN TURKS (i.e. not Albania, not FYROM, not Bulgarian, not Greece and not Serbia). The Bulgarian ancestors of FYROM forcibly changed street names, city names, killed people of other ethnic groups (e.g your capital city Skopjie was officially named Uskub at the time)

If you believe you committed a crime using force to take the lands from Ottoman Turks you are more than welcome to give it back to them (and give back your cities the Turkish names they [...]

Read the full comment had in the 19th century)

Otherwise we are all tired of the rhetoric of war coming out of FYROM ultranationalists (that are in denial of their very own ethnic Bulgarian roots due to the crimes of Yugoslav communists)

Lets finally put the Balkan wars behind us and move forward into the future ok? (and hiding from your own ethnic Bulgarian history and hating everyone else in the region won't accomplish that)

You are just repeating historical propaganda promoted by ultranationlists like Risto and the current FYROM government. No one outside of FYROM nationalists believe that historical narrative and the facts won't go away no matter how ashamed Risto is of his own ethnic Bulgarian roots.

Just read the words of your own national hero Misirkov-who attests to the Bulgarian past of both himeself and FYROM. Was he part of some conspiracy against FYROM too?

"We are Bulgarians, more Bulgarians than the Bulgarians in Bulgaria themselves."[...]'And, anyway, what sort of new Macedonian nation can [...]

Read the full comment this be when we and our fathers and grandfathers and great-grandfathers have always been called Bulgarians?

"Who is against a greater Bulgaria is against Slavism"

"Macedonians means only Macedonian Bulgarians"

“Some will ask why I speak of breaking away from the Bulgarians when in the past we have even called ourselves Bulgarians ”

“The only Macedonian Slavs who played a leading part in the Uprising were those who called themselves Bulgarians.”

“Come what may, our separation from the Bulgarians…”


“We did indeed call ourselves “Bulgarians” and “Christians” in the national sense”

“The first objection — that a Macedonian Slav nationality has never existed — may be very simply answered as follows: what has not existed in the past may still be brought into existence later, provided that the appropriate historical circumstances arise.”

“No matter whether we call ourselves Bulgarians or Macedonians we shall always feel as a nationality with a Bulgarian national consciousness,”

“We are Bulgarian more than the Bulgarians in Bulgaria. The population of Skopje is pure Bulgarian. The Serbian not only want to colonize Macedonia with Serbs from other part of Yugoslavia, but they wish to kill our Bulgarian consciousness."

“The Ilinden Uprising of 1903 had a pronounced effect on me and caused me to make some mistakes which completely isolated me from the Bulgarian cause in Macedonia. With great respect I was forced to temporarily renounce completely working for the realization of the Bulgarian national ideals[...] “The same Mr Zanetov gave me the idea to appeal to you and ask for a lecturing position at the Bulgarian Male Gymnasium in Salonika. I agreed with satisfaction to Mr Zanetov’s proposal, since in this way I would receive the opportunity, anew, and according to my ability to serve the Bulgarian national interest and ideals”

“If the question of racial similarity and difference between Bulgarians and Macedonians comes to be resolved on the basis of the national name, language and history, there is no doubt that we should resolve it as a Greek priest did in 1804; author of a four-language dictionary Greek, Bulgarian, Rumanian and Albanian and who regarded as Bulgarian the Western Macedonian dialect. Therefore when in Macedonia and Bulgaria there was no mention of the Bulgarian Exarchate, the Greeks, obviously well acquainted with the Balkan nationalities, do not make any distinction between a Bulgarian, a Macedonian and a Macedonian Slav. We the Macedonians, cannot, and have no reason to ignore this and similar facts, which can be quoted by the hundreds. We cannot ignore them because to do so means to distort our history, to hide the truth and to deceive ourselves.”

You are just repeating historical propaganda promoted by ultranationlists like Risto and the current FYROM government. No one outside of FYROM nationalists believe that historical narrative and the facts won't go away no matter how ashamed Risto is of his own ethnic Bulgarian roots.

Just read the words of your own national hero Misirkov-who attests to the Bulgarian past of both himeself and FYROM. Was he part of some conspiracy against FYROM too?

"We are Bulgarians, more Bulgarians than the Bulgarians in Bulgaria themselves."[...]'And, anyway, what sort of new Macedonian nation can [...]

Read the full comment this be when we and our fathers and grandfathers and great-grandfathers have always been called Bulgarians?

"Who is against a greater Bulgaria is against Slavism"

"Macedonians means only Macedonian Bulgarians"

“Some will ask why I speak of breaking away from the Bulgarians when in the past we have even called ourselves Bulgarians ”

“The only Macedonian Slavs who played a leading part in the Uprising were those who called themselves Bulgarians.”

“Come what may, our separation from the Bulgarians…”


“We did indeed call ourselves “Bulgarians” and “Christians” in the national sense”

“The first objection — that a Macedonian Slav nationality has never existed — may be very simply answered as follows: what has not existed in the past may still be brought into existence later, provided that the appropriate historical circumstances arise.”

“No matter whether we call ourselves Bulgarians or Macedonians we shall always feel as a nationality with a Bulgarian national consciousness,”

“We are Bulgarian more than the Bulgarians in Bulgaria. The population of Skopje is pure Bulgarian. The Serbian not only want to colonize Macedonia with Serbs from other part of Yugoslavia, but they wish to kill our Bulgarian consciousness."

“The Ilinden Uprising of 1903 had a pronounced effect on me and caused me to make some mistakes which completely isolated me from the Bulgarian cause in Macedonia. With great respect I was forced to temporarily renounce completely working for the realization of the Bulgarian national ideals[...] “The same Mr Zanetov gave me the idea to appeal to you and ask for a lecturing position at the Bulgarian Male Gymnasium in Salonika. I agreed with satisfaction to Mr Zanetov’s proposal, since in this way I would receive the opportunity, anew, and according to my ability to serve the Bulgarian national interest and ideals”

“If the question of racial similarity and difference between Bulgarians and Macedonians comes to be resolved on the basis of the national name, language and history, there is no doubt that we should resolve it as a Greek priest did in 1804; author of a four-language dictionary Greek, Bulgarian, Rumanian and Albanian and who regarded as Bulgarian the Western Macedonian dialect. Therefore when in Macedonia and Bulgaria there was no mention of the Bulgarian Exarchate, the Greeks, obviously well acquainted with the Balkan nationalities, do not make any distinction between a Bulgarian, a Macedonian and a Macedonian Slav. We the Macedonians, cannot, and have no reason to ignore this and similar facts, which can be quoted by the hundreds. We cannot ignore them because to do so means to distort our history, to hide the truth and to deceive ourselves.”

You are just repeating historical propaganda promoted by ultranationlists like Risto and the current FYROM government. No one outside of FYROM nationalists believe that historical narrative and the facts won't go away no matter how ashamed Risto is of his own ethnic Bulgarian roots.

Just read the words of your own national hero Misirkov-who attests to the Bulgarian past of both himeself and FYROM. Was he part of some conspiracy against FYROM too?

"We are Bulgarians, more Bulgarians than the Bulgarians in Bulgaria themselves."[...]'And, anyway, what sort of new Macedonian nation can [...]

Read the full comment this be when we and our fathers and grandfathers and great-grandfathers have always been called Bulgarians?

"Who is against a greater Bulgaria is against Slavism"

"Macedonians means only Macedonian Bulgarians"

“Some will ask why I speak of breaking away from the Bulgarians when in the past we have even called ourselves Bulgarians ”

“The only Macedonian Slavs who played a leading part in the Uprising were those who called themselves Bulgarians.”

“Come what may, our separation from the Bulgarians…”


“We did indeed call ourselves “Bulgarians” and “Christians” in the national sense”

“The first objection — that a Macedonian Slav nationality has never existed — may be very simply answered as follows: what has not existed in the past may still be brought into existence later, provided that the appropriate historical circumstances arise.”

“No matter whether we call ourselves Bulgarians or Macedonians we shall always feel as a nationality with a Bulgarian national consciousness,”

“We are Bulgarian more than the Bulgarians in Bulgaria. The population of Skopje is pure Bulgarian. The Serbian not only want to colonize Macedonia with Serbs from other part of Yugoslavia, but they wish to kill our Bulgarian consciousness."

“The Ilinden Uprising of 1903 had a pronounced effect on me and caused me to make some mistakes which completely isolated me from the Bulgarian cause in Macedonia. With great respect I was forced to temporarily renounce completely working for the realization of the Bulgarian national ideals[...] “The same Mr Zanetov gave me the idea to appeal to you and ask for a lecturing position at the Bulgarian Male Gymnasium in Salonika. I agreed with satisfaction to Mr Zanetov’s proposal, since in this way I would receive the opportunity, anew, and according to my ability to serve the Bulgarian national interest and ideals”

“If the question of racial similarity and difference between Bulgarians and Macedonians comes to be resolved on the basis of the national name, language and history, there is no doubt that we should resolve it as a Greek priest did in 1804; author of a four-language dictionary Greek, Bulgarian, Rumanian and Albanian and who regarded as Bulgarian the Western Macedonian dialect. Therefore when in Macedonia and Bulgaria there was no mention of the Bulgarian Exarchate, the Greeks, obviously well acquainted with the Balkan nationalities, do not make any distinction between a Bulgarian, a Macedonian and a Macedonian Slav. We the Macedonians, cannot, and have no reason to ignore this and similar facts, which can be quoted by the hundreds. We cannot ignore them because to do so means to distort our history, to hide the truth and to deceive ourselves.”

For all those that don't believe it, just look at the flood of comments that are from Greek writers. If you look across the internet it is like this for most, if not all, articles. There is a reason for this, these commenter's aren't simple people who read news, they are PAID Greek propagandists to spend every day on the internet and post the same statements over and over again. That is your money Germans, French, Brits, etc that is paying for this.

And to the other Greeks, in the 1800s your historians publicly stated the [...]

Read the full comment Ancient Macedonians destroyed Greek freedom, the
Greek government wrote booked called "The Anti Macedonian campaign" detailing how to assimilate us, and your war heroes stated numerous times there was a "Makedonka" language in Aegean Macedonian that they needed translators for

Before 1913 the vast majority of people in Macedonia were NON GREEK! Macedonians fought for a FREE AND INDEPENDENT Macedonia in the 1800s, long before Greece made up the claim that Communists created us simply for territorial aspirations.

In fact, after Greece acquired Aegean Macedonia (Greeks call it Greek Macedonia) they forced Macedonians to convert their religion, names and language to Greek. Greece also bought in over 600,000 refugees into Aegean Macedonia to replace the Macedonians that were killed or kicked out of Aegean Macedonia.

Greece forcefully converted Aegean Macedonia into Greek [...]

Read the full comment through racism, hatred and nationalism. But that is the key word, Aegean Macedonia had to be CONVERTED to Greek because it originally WAS NOT by converted street names, destroying Christian frescoes and forcing motor oil down the throats of Macedonians!

Now, Greece is on a campaign to give Macedonians a bad name simply because they can. They abuse the EU and NATO to get want they want, even if they go bankrupt in the process, They have spend billions in Anti-Macedonian propaganda, so to the Angry Germans, French and others just realize your governments giving money to Greece so they can fund more Anti-Macedonian hatred.

George,history does not change.What happens is that sometimes history is manipulated and distorted by some in order to serve an illigetimate purpose.As far as the dispute is concerned, i believe that there is no Macedonian nation and language.This is myth.

Krste Misirkov,

“If the question of racial similarity and difference between Bulgarians and Macedonians comes to be resolved on the basis of the national name, language and history, there is no doubt that we should resolve it as a Greek priest did in 1804; author of a four-language dictionary Greek, Bulgarian, Rumanian and Albanian and who regarded as Bulgarian the Western Macedonian dialect. Therefore when in Macedonia and Bulgaria there was no mention of the Bulgarian Exarchate, the Greeks, obviously well acquainted with the Balkan nationalities, do not make any distinction between a Bulgarian, a Macedonian [...]

Read the full comment and a Macedonian Slav. We the Macedonians, cannot, and have no reason to ignore this and similar facts, which can be quoted by the hundreds. We cannot ignore them because to do so means to distort our history, to hide the truth and to deceive ourselves.”
mak-truth.com/k_pap2.htm

"instead love and brotherhood should be the question. "

If you really believe that, you should stop lying to yourself and others for the sake of the ultra-nationalist politicians in FYROM's government.

"The history of the construction of a Macedonian national identity does not begin with Alexander the Great in the fourth century B.C. or with Saints Cyril and Methodius in the ninth century A.D. as Macedonian nationalist historians often claim. - Loring Danforth, "The Macedonian Conflict: Ethnic Nationalism in a Transnational World", Princeton Univ Press, December 1995 p.56)

"Krste Misirkov, who had clearly developed a strong sense of his own personal national identity as a Macedonian and who outspokenly and unambiguously called for Macedonian linguistic and national separatism, acknowledged that a Macedonian national identity was a relatively [...]

Read the full comment recent historical development." (p.63)

"The political and military leaders of the Slavs of Macedonia at the turn of the century seem not to have heard Misirkov's call for a separate Macedonian national identity; they continued to identify themselves in a national sense as Bulgarians rather than Macedonians.(p.64)

"But who are the Macedonians? You will find Bulgarians and Turks who call themselves Macedonians, you find Greek Macedonians, there are Servian Macedonians, and it is possible to find Roumanian Macedonians. You will not, however, find a single Christian Macedonian who is not a Servian, a Bulgarian, a Greek, or a Roumanian. They all curse the Turk, and they love Macedonia. But it is Greek Macedonia, or Bulgarian Macedonia, and their eyes flame with passion, whilst their fingers seek the triggers of their guns “Pictures From The Balkans” " Pg.5
by John Foster Fraser 1906)
[...]

Read the full comment

"It is not the Macedonians who do not know who they are, because we have kept our idenity since ancient times"

FYROM ultra=nationalist historical propaganda. There was no "ethnic Macedonian" identity in the early 19th century. The Bulgarians that lived in FYROM (who have today renamed themselves "ethnic Macedonians" simply lived in a region that was known as Macedonia but they no more identified with ancient Macedonians than modern Palestinians self-identify with ancient Israelites.

FYROM ultranationalists constantly quote mine references to "Macedonians" but they consciously omit the context of the term. They [...]

Read the full comment were "Macedonians" only in a regional sense not ethnic context. (much like Greeks, Serbs, Turks, Jews and other Macedonians from the period)

"I suggested to Patrick Leigh Fermor to suggest in his article in the Independent the name of “Paeonia” as the most suitable for Skopje . [...]"Therefore, given the struggle of the three ethnic groups (Serbs, Greeks, Bulgarians) for the control of Macedonia and the absence of any local national movement, we can talk of Macedonia only as a geographical entity not as a nation." - Ancient Macedonian historian Nicholas Hammond in an interview with the magazine “Macedonian Echo” in February, 1999)

Blugodonia I know my history quite well thank you, but it is your stubburn resisitence that forces you to think that the Bulgers where a Slavic people and not conquerers.

If what you state, that Delchev and his compatriates where just Bulgarians meddling their noses in Macedonian affairs, then that is fine, because it brought out the Macedonian Question to the world and the real issue that Macedonia belongs to the Macedonians.

It is not the Macedonians who do not know who they are, because we have kept our idenity since ancient [...]

Read the full comment times, but the Greeks and Bulgarians who for some unknown reason have a Freudian desire to to be called Macedonian.

Oh what sad times are these, when two countries worry more about a name when their economies are crumbling, instead love and brotherhood should be the question.

Yet again I reiterate, there are four parts of Macedonia and everyone who was born there,had ancestors from there or acquired citizenship, may call themselves Macedonian and associate themselves to to the long glorious past, right back to Karanus ( which is an ancient Macedonian name)

'"The red lines Greece constantly mentions create a bad atmosphere and restrict the efforts for solving the issue," Gruevski said."

Sure. Because Gruevski doesn't have a "red line" also. Why doesn't he finally change the name if he doesn't have a red line? (rather than say funding schoolbooks that show images of what FYROM ultranationalists references as "united Macedonia"

If "ancient Macedonian" warrior Gruevski would finally compromise on a name, rather than stubbornly stick with his red lines, it would make it clear to Albania, Greece, and Bulgaria that he truly respects [...]

Read the full comment our borders. (as well as open a path to the EU and NATO for FYROM)

Ljubco Georgievski, former elected Prime Minister of FYROM (and now with a Bulgarian passport), is trying to save FYROM's ethnic Bulgarian heritage. Unfortunately he is constantly harassed and threatened with death by the "ancient Macedonian" ultra-nationalists.. for speaking the truth. (to admit being Bulgarian in FYROM is virtually a crime and Bulgarians face harassment on a regular basis)

"To everyone of us it is clear that this entire thesis, this entire thesis for ethnogenesis from Macedonians, it isn't so. Ancient Macedonians until today is founded on a series of mystifications and semi-historical truths which are emitted [...]

Read the full comment from Republic of Macedonia and that by using and abusing the media.[...] "Why do Skopjans not ask how much Dardanian blood there is in them[..] how much Thracian blood there is in them[...] how much Illyrian blood there is in them[...]how much Paeonian blood there is in them.[...]I do not see anyone of us get into a fight over the amount of Paeonian blood in us, or God forbid, Dardinian one?[...]Ancient Macedonia does not match with today's Macedonia at all.[...]Ancient Macedonia, we must clarify it once, is literally in entirety in today's Greece.[...] If we are looking at ethnogenesis then we should open at another place. Therefore we should discuss how much we are Paeoneans. "
youtube.com/user/Srbolog#play/uploads/1/-HvKPiLYZCI

"The whole story about Ancient Macedonia sounds undoubtedly very nice. However, there is a great problem, a huge hole of about 2,000 years during which we have neither oral nor written tradition, nor a single scientific argument!”
youtube.com/watch?v=8lqBsJvpfzM

"Why are we ashamed and flee from the truth that whole positive Macedonian revolutionary tradition comes exactly from exarchist part of Macedonian people? We shall not say a new truth if we mention the fact that everyone, Gotse Delchev, Dame Gruev, Gjorche Petrov, Pere Toshev - must I list and count all of them - were teachers of the Bulgarian Exarchate in Macedonia.'
(from his book 'Facing the truth')

"With the proclamation of the new Socialist Republic of Macedonia, there were started measures that would overcome the pro-Bulgarian feeling among the population.It has been claimed that from 1944 till the end of the 1940s people espousing a Bulgarian ethnic identity had been oppressed. According to Bulgarian sources more than 100,000 men were imprisoned and some 1,200 prominent Bulgarians were sentenced to death."
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedonian_Bulgarians

Gruevski and ultrantionalist facists in FYROM are a threat to the territorial integrity of both Bulgaria and Greece.

They endlessly produce maps and references to what they refer to as "united Macedonian" (since many of their ultra nationalists now bizarrely claim to be the pure descendants of ancient Macedonians that Bulgarians, Albanians, and Greeks are occupying their land)

tportal.hr/ResourceManager/GetImage.aspx?imgId=36237&fmtId=20

tinyurl.com/23zdslg

img101.imageshack.us/img101/7110/megalhmakedoniaik7.jpg

141

You are the "idiot" racist and don't know your own history.

FYROM cry and cry because no one will recognize their fake history and communist created identity as "ethnic Macedonians". They are "persecuted" because others defend their own identity (whom FYROM nationalists deny to build their own)

FYROM new identity is "ancient Macedonians" is based on their government's vague pseudo-scientific racial arguments (since its not based on language and history-like most of the rest of the world). Everyone in Bulgaria knows FYROM speak a language that used [...]

Read the full comment to be considered a Buglarian dialect.

To the hater, these events happened. I have no idea why so many FYROM nationalists are so ashamed of their ethnic Bulgarian heritage. So many issues could be solved if it just became part of Bulgaria again.

"The history of the construction of a Macedonian national identity does not begin with Alexander the Great in the fourth century B.C. or with Saints Cyril and Methodius in the ninth century A.D. as Macedonian nationalist historians often claim.
(Loring Danforth, "The Macedonian Conflict: Ethnic Nationalism in a Transnational World", Princeton Univ Press, December 1995 p.56)

"The political and military leaders of the Slavs of Macedonia at the turn of the century seem not to have heard Misirkov's call for a separate Macedonian national identity; they continued to identify themselves in a national sense as Bulgarians rather than Macedonians."(p.64)

You see idiotic racists and fascist like Bugodonia, who have no idea of history are the ones blocking the name issue.

Although, A Makeonia in Skopje, makes strives in facing the name issue, I must beg to differ with him on some points still.

The history of Macedonia is just that, not the history of the country of Greece which just existed since 1913 and not the history of the country of Bulgaria which existed since 1868.

How many times must you be told that Bulgars came from [...]

Read the full comment another part of the world and conquered the people of the area they are in now. So to say they have a right to the Bulgarian language which is Slavic is false and cannot surely deny the Macedonians their language.

As to going back to ancient times again and leaving the rest of the 2000 years of Macedonian history is absurd.

Macedonia was a kingdom where they considered themselves Macedonian and it was only the royality that had any ambtion to be Greek and except for the Greek colonies that were sent by Athens and other cities. the rest of the population considered themselves Macedonian.

Once again I must state that, Macedonians in whichever region of Macedonia are entitled to use the names Macedonian and Macedonia without equivocation.

"The history is that of Macedonia and the problem lies in the false notion that the ancient people exist today."

Nonsense. The problem is the world is still filled with idiotic racists that believe in national races. (the Nazis most famously but the idea still widely exists today)

You have convinced yourselves FYROM's former Bulgarian dialect is now somehow on par with Greek. It's like bizarrely claiming out of the blue French the "Bavarian language" and calling the northern French "ethnic Bavarians". The confusion is current entirely due to FYROM's erratic behavior [...]

Read the full comment

There is absolutely no confusion whatsoever that the name Macedonia is part of the Hellenic lingusitic/ethnological space. (except again in the minds of racists that see things from a pseudo-scientific biological not an easily observable cultural/linguistic perspective)

If FYROM were really proud of their "ancient Macedonian" heritage as they claim.... why don't they speak Greek? Why do they give Slavic names to their cities? Why don't they call themselves Greeks... just as ancient Macedonians did?

It is through FYROM's linguistic/cultural choices FYROM define themselves ethnologically as non-Macedonians. (even anti-Macedonian I would say)

Mind you, if they keep up the on with the their of control historical propaganda by Hellenizing themselves-maybe in a few decades they'll call themselves Greeks. It might sound crazy now, but who would have guessed in IMRO leadership that ethnic Bulgarians would be claiming to be related to ancient Macedonians today.

Delchev, Misirkov, Gruev, et al would have been very ashamed FYROM were denying their own ethnic Bulgarian roots today.

A Macedonian speaks in Skopje:

TITLE: Prospects for resolving the name issue
EVENT: NATO Parliamentary Assembly’s Rose-Roth Seminar, Skopje 20.10.2010
SPEAKER: Dr. Evangelos Kofos

The organizers of the seminar have asked me to discuss the "Prospects for resolving the name issue." For someone like me, a native of Macedonia, who, for

half a century, has been studying the Macedonian question or being involved with contemporary Macedonian issues, it was not an easy task. For help, I turned to
the Athenian philosopher Antisthenis, [...]

Read the full comment a contemporary and friend of Socrates: I
found his advice, «αρχή σοφίας η των ονομάτων επίσκεψις», an appropriate way to approach our problem. In English, his dictum could be rendered as, “the foundation of wisdom, is the definition of the names.”

The first mistake we, the contemporaries, have made in dealing with the “name issue” was to ignore his advice. And naturally we failed.

The traditional “Macedonian Question” -- traced from the last decades of the 19th century to the mid-20th century-- was a contest mainly over territories, and as such an issue of regional and international security.
During the latter part of the 20th century, up to this day, it has evolved, mainly, as an issue of identities.

Claims over territories have been dealt by wars, uprisings, persistent insecurity. On the other hand, contested identities, are hard to decipher, particularly by outsiders, who tend to underestimate, or denigrate them as
"incomprehensible" or "nuisances." Thus, our failure to decipher the different identities, hidden behind identical names, was our second error.

So let us try, today, to define the various elements of the problem.

There are three groups of identities that require clear definition before proceeding to resolve the "name issue":
-- the identity of the land
-- the identities of peoples connected with this land
-- the identity of heritage

The first thing to keep in mind is that the term "Macedonia" defines not one but a variety of regions

---a. The first "Macedonia" --historic Macedonia-- refers to the Macedonian kingdom in king Philip's times, i.e., the 4th century, Β.C. Vaguely speaking, it comprised most of present day Hellenic Macedonia, plus a southern belt of the present Republika Makedonija. Over two millennia, the land of historic Macedonia, under different rulers, underwent many territorial changes. In Byzantine times, the administrastive region, "Thema Makedonias," identified mainly the Thracian regions of the empire, all the way to the Black Sea! In
Ottoman times it disappeared completely as an administrative name.

---b. The name "Macedonia," re-emerged immediately after the Balkan wars, in 1913, as “Geniki Dioikisi Makedonias” (General Administration of Macedonia),
i.e. an administrative region of the Kingdom of Greece. It covered most of the historic Macedonian regions in king Philip’s time. Today it is sub-divided into three peripheries (“Dytiki Makedonia," "Kentriki Makedonia," and Anatoliki
Makedonia-Thraki"), recognized as regions by the European Union.

---c. Thirty years later, in 1944, a second region in southern Balkans emerged, administratively identified also as "Macedonia"; it was the "People's Republic of Macedonia," a federative component of the PFR of Yugoslavia. It is the same region which, in late 1991, as a result of the dissolution of the Yugoslav
federation, was transformed into an independent state. It is currently
identified by its constitutional name, "Republika Makedonija," and by the international temporary appellation, "the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia." As such, it is referred as the tatkovina (fatherland) of the citizens of this country.

---d. There is, however, a fourth "Macedonia," which is projected in maps and historical literature, mainly in this country, and is generally viewed also as the "tatkovina" of the "ethnic Macedonians." Within its "geographic and ethnic
boundaries" it comprises Hellenic Macedonia, Republika Makedonija and the smaller Pirin region of Bulgaria.

Let us now turn to the second group of identities, the noun Macedonians."

-- (a) "Macedonians" (Makedones) -- is the historic name by which the
Greek-speaking people of the ancient Macedonian kingdom, identified themselves;

-- (b) “"Macedonians" (Makedones), is the regional/cultural name of the inhabitants of the Greek administrative region "Makedonia" in northern Greece.

-- (c) "Macedonians" (Makedontsi) is the legal appellation (citizenship) of all the citizens of Republika Makedonija.

-- (d) "Macedonians" (Makedontsi) are called the self-identified Slav- or ethnic-Macedonians (wherever they come from).

-- (e) "Macedonians" (Makedontsi), is the regional name of ethnic Bulgarians originating from a Macedonian region.

The reason I have expounded on these various Macedonia and Macedonians identities is to offer you the key to enter the labyrinth of our "name issue."

Keep in mind that each one of these names has bequeathed its own "Macedonian" derivatives to a variety of recipients. Initially, an incredible confusion emerged as to "who was what." Soon, bitter antagonisms made their appearance
on an international scale, seeking to convince outsiders that by means of their own brands of "Macedonia/Macedonian" they themselves were the rightful holders of the title deeds to the land, the peoples and the historical/cultural heritage of Macedonia.

Contenders accuse each "other," in harsh terms, for "usurpation" of their identity. A quick tour of dozens of sites and blogs on the Internet tells the sad story.

The third group of identities refers to the Macedonian derivatives.

To add to the confusion, the derivatives from the nouns Macedonia and Macedonians are used by all kinds of "Macedonians" to describe or define a variety of identities touching on such contested issues as, Macedonian
historical events and personalities, Macedonian traditions, Macedonian culture,
Macedonian language, Macedonian origin, Macedonian ethnicity, Macedonian citizenship, and Macedonian products of all kinds.

Such conflicting claims lead to the question: Who are the "owners," the "suitors" or even the "usurpers" of these identities?

As already stated, the core of the controversy over the names "Macedonia" and "Macedonians" are claims for title deeds [1] to the Macedonian land, its peoples and their historical/cultural heritage.

The Greeks, today, do not raise claims over lands outside their borders. They perceive, however, the historical and cultural heritage of the ancient Macedonian kingdom as a basic ingredient of their Hellenic identity, in the same way they view the Greek city-states of the south of classical antiquity. This explains the vast popular reaction among Greeks against the recognition of a new
independent state in their neighbourhood, bearing the name "Macedonia" and using Ancient Macedonian symbols (the "Sun of Vergina") in their national flag. Recent initiatives in this country, which have come to be known as
"antiquizatsia," certainly have embroiled the "name issue" with elements touching sensitive chords of the Greeks, particularly the Makedones.

A second issue of identity contest, with undertones of territorial claims, emerges by the extended use --particularly in schools and in government publications-- of the map of a "united" Macedonia, portraying diachronically the
alleged "geographical and ethnic boundaries" of the "tatkovina" of the Makedontsi. More disturbing to the Greeks is that Greek Macedonia, is referred as the "Egejski del na Makedonija pod Grcja" (the Aegean part of Macedonia under Greece.” A similar treatment is reserved for the Bulgarian part which is
identified as "Pirinska del na Makedonija pod Balgarija" (The Pirin part of Macedonia under Bulgaria). Strangely enough, the third part which in the past
was identified as Vardarska Makedonija, is simply identified as Republika Makedonija. As both the map of the Republic and of the wider "geographical/ethnic" map, transcending three states, are identified as "Macedonia," and indeed, as the "tatkovina" of the Makedontsi, the inference is clear that the two parts in Greece and Bulgaria are "unjustly" under foreign rule.

Thus, apart from the historical/cultural debate, the territorial issue, involving indirect claims to foreign lands, as conveyed to new generations of students in this country, certainly is one of the serious obstacles to a sincere and lasting rapprochement between the two countries.
Prospects for resolving the issue I will not delve into the current efforts for finding a solution, for the simple reason that I am unaware of the current stage of diplomatic negotiations; if any. I could share with you, however, certain opinions which could show us paths for finding an exit from the problem, provided, of course, there is a will to find a solution.

Following Antisthenis advice, we have come to the conclusion that there are more than one "Macedonia" and a variety of "Macedonians," which affect the identity of various derivatives. With strong arguments, both sides claim exclusivity of rights for their own Macedonian brands. To commence:

-- Step number one: We put aside direct or indirect tactics for exclusiveness of the Macedonian name and adopt the principle of "non-monopolization."

-- Step number two: Negotiations will target at a definitive, final, not a temporary or partial solution.

-- The constitutional name, which will replace the current one as well as the temporary international appellation, will use the Macedonian name; a Macedonian
name with a prefix which will describe or identify clearly the region over which
this country exercises legal jurisdiction (I will not venture names, but I recall that UN mediator Nimetz has referred, among others, North, Gorna, Vardarska).


-- The new state name will apply to all uses (internal, bilateral,
international).

-- The legal derivatives (citizenship), naturally, will follow the state name.

-- The corresponding ethnic or regional Macedonian identities in neighbouring countries will be mutually respected. In international languages, to avoid confusion, they will be used in untransliterated form -- for example, "Vardarska Makedonija," "Elliniki Makedonia," "makedonsko vino," "makedonikos halvas."

-- Similar will be the treatment of Macedonian derivatives in international use.

-- The parties will respect the bona fide cultural heritage of each other and
special clarifications will be made on this issue in relevant international
documents.

Ladies and gentlemen:

I am not naïve to believe that such proposals will rally politicians and the
public to endorse them overnight. Although my previous attempt in this direction

[2] was received with certain skepticism, I was encouraged by certain positive
comments and suggestions, including some from this country.

This is the reason why I have accepted your kind invitation to present my
personal assessment for the "prospects for a solution of the name issues."

Provided there is a will, a solution will be found. Hopefully, in my life
time...

FOOTNOTES:

[1] In law, "title deed" refers a deed or document evidencing a person's
legal right or title to property, especially to real property.

[2] E, Kofos, "The Current Macedonian Issue between Athens and Skopje: Is there an Option for a Breakthrough?"

My friends, the region of Macedonia has existed since the Romans took over the Empire of the Macedonians some 2100 years ago.

It seems very perplexing to me that in that time you people think that one homogenous people (either Greek, Bulgarian,Slav, Serb, Albanian) have settled that area all that time?

As I see it there are four parts of that region, that are found in different countries and it seems that the History of Macedonia belongs to all these parts.

Simple put the name Macedonia belongs too [...]

Read the full comment each part and can used by each part how it seems fit.

The history is that of Macedonia and the problem lies in the false notion that the ancient people exist today.

Zdravets

Its because the nations that recognize FYROM don't have to deal with FYROM ultranationalsts. If they did they would respond much like Bulgaria and Greece have.

There is narrative than their is reality. FYROM ultra-nationalists cry crocodile tears of "persecution" essentially because they want other countries to recognize their fabricated history as "ancient Macedonians".

In practice those ultra-nationalists are framing Greece and Bulgaria as "Greek occupied Macedonia" and "Bulgaria occupied Macedonia"... by manipulating names and history.

We both know its true. Sooner or [...]

Read the full comment later FYROM will need to face its ethnic Bulgarian past. Hiding from it won't change the history of the region.

To Bulgo et al

Here's the big picture facing all of us. The Balkans has a small population. Take any two alpha cities on this planet and their combined population will be larger than the Balkans, eg. Beijing & Mumbai.

The world is changing very fast and the competition is fierce. We can spend our time aruguing over history and dusting off quotes from historical figures; or we can change to meet the challenges of today and the future.

The primary challenges facing the Balkans are ethnicities and [...]

Read the full comment history. Be patient with me for two more quotes which describe the Balkans. They will be my last on this site. Churchill: "The Balkans generate more history than they can consume." And prior to him, Bismark: "The whole of the Balkans is not worth the bones of a single Pomeranian grenadier."

If international success were measured on the ability to create conflicts, the Balkans would be regular gold medal winners.

If the Balkans don't progress beyond their pasts, we can only look forward to stagnation and conflict.

You choose to criticize the Republic of Macedonia, but don't forget that it has come this far without war. Macedonia is trying to build an open, tolerant, multi-ethnic, peaceful society, despite Greek efforts to cause internal conflict and ultimate collapse.

There are about 195 countries in the world and over 3,000 ethnicities, and I am being conservative because I've seen higher estimates. This means that the majority of ethnicities have no where to go except inside one of those 195 states. There is no ethnically pure state on this planet and I doubt there ever will be.

The path to get out of the Balkan historical trap is to build CIVIL SOCIETIES whose inclusion is based on citizenship rather than ethnic origin and religion. The path is to accept MULTI-CULTURALISM and tolerate peoples' ethnicities, religions and heritage rather than view them as a threat to your own.

I pointed to the Krusevo Manifesto, not because I am dogmatic or a fanatic, but this document which was drawn by simple, dignified people expresses their tolerance and acceptance of the ethnicities and religions in their midst. For that matter, you can also refer to Rhigas (Velestinlis)Pheraios "New Political Constitution of the Inhabitants of Rumeli, Asia Minor, the Islands of the Aegean, and the principalities of Moldavia and Wallachia" whose theme was equality between populations regardless of race or religion. And this dates back to the 1790's. By the way, you won't find the word "Greek" in there. People referred to themselves as Rumeli. Imagine if only Greece had developed along his path.

And lastly, societies have to cleanse themselves psychologically. If there has been evil committed against neighbours, this has to be reconciled. The Germans did it with Isreal, so it can be done.

Greece's challenge is far greather than the other Balkan countries. Although seemingly connected to the West, Greece is unlike the west when it comes to tolerance and acceptance of ethnicities and religions in its midst. Its obsessive pursuit of Hellenism to the exclusion of others only feeds social hatreds, suspicions and xenophobia. Only the Greeks themselves can change this. If they choose not to, then I can think of a song which foretells their future, "Na, Na, Na, Hey, Hey, Goodbye."

@Macedonian Democratis

There is a great deal of revisionist history in Greece too. Many Greeks seem to think they are pure biological descendants of ancient Greeks. I respect the Greek ethnic identity because Greeks still manage to speak Greek but the idea of pure national races is largely nationalist myths.

No nation, including Bulgaria, is pure. We mostly define our ethnic identities by our identification, culture and linguistic choices. The only reason I say FYROM is still Bulgarian is because all they are doing is replacing the word "Bulgarian" with "Macedonian".
[...]

Read the full comment />
This is extremely childish because their modified Bulgarian dialect is not an iota more related to ancient Greek than Bulgarian itself. I might as well call Bulgarian "Latin" or "Chinese".

The ultra-nationalists in FYROM don't realize by trying to "prove" they are related to ancient Macedonians - inch by inch - they are eradicating their very own Bulgarian cultural roots.

If they keep it up, it's plausible that Bulgarians will eventually be completely erased off the ethnological map. (since Bulgaria already has lost over a million people who have now been assimilated into "ancient Macedonians")

The irony is despite all the name recognition FYROM received-Greece actually seems to be winning from a cultural perspective. FYROM are slowly Hellenizing themselves. Given the direction they are taking, it's plausible one day down the road they will even call themselves Greeks (as countless ancient Macedonian artifacts attest to the fact they self-identified culturally/linguistically with Hellenism regardless with they may have been biologically) No ammount of historical propaganda will ever make those artifacts ever rewrite themselves.

Delchev et al, Bulgarian Macedonians, opposed those that attempted to erase Bulgarian heritage and supplant it with Alexander claims (which what the Greeks wanted Macedonia to be). They wanted a Bulgarian Macedonia not an Hellenistic one.

Sometimes the thought crosses my mind that Gruevski is actually working secretly for the Greek government. Today Bulgarian Macedonians are called "traitors" and seem to be fighting to Hellenize themselves. Crazy world.

youtube.com/watch?v=j48WLgCQHuo&feature=player_embedded

Zdravets,

Too many FYROM nationalists are on a paranoia trip brought on by Gruevski's ultra-nationalist revisionists historian policies.

Why would both Bulgarians and Greeks say the exact same thing? (especially given up to the end of the cold war relations between the two nations were rocky) Why would historians around the world claim FYROM is fabricating history?

It is Gruevski that contradicts the words of Delchev, Misirkov, Gruev et al. He can hide from their words if wants, they'll see be there forever as a testimonial to his [...]

Read the full comment shame and ignorance.

Feel free to look up the quotes below to see if I'm lying-or its Gruevski that's lying. (to his own citizens no less)

Gruev: "WE ARE BULGARIANS and we always work and will work for the unification of the Bulgariandom.”

Misirkov: “WE ARE BULGARIANS more than the BULGARIANS in BULGARIA. THE POPULATION OF SKOPJE IS PURE BULGARIAN."

Delchev "WE ARE BULGARIANS"...in his own handwriting.
tinyurl.com/2vsvo

Was Delchev, Misirkov, Gruev, and the historians of the world all part of Bulgarian and Greek "propaganda" conspiracy?

Or is Gruevski an ultra-nationalist basket case?

"I suggested to Patrick Leigh Fermor to suggest in his article in the Independent the name of “Paeonia” as the most suitable for Skopje . [...]"Therefore, given the struggle of the three ethnic groups (Serbs, Greeks, Bulgarians) for the control of Macedonia and the absence of any local national movement, we can talk of Macedonia only as a geographical entity not as a nation." - Ancient Macedonian historian Nicholas Hammond in an interview with the magazine “Macedonian Echo” in February, 1999)

To Bulgo,
You are right φίλε, the Slavomacedonians used to be called Bulgarians until very recently. Most of the documents prove this and the name 'Macedonian' from 1903 was used mostly as a regional term. Their language was called Bulgarian. Now some of their descendants want to be called Macedonians and they say 'Greek occupied Macedonia'. LOL!

But they if they do not feel Bulgarians we cannot call them or their language Bulgarian. We respect their individual culture and language and recognise their suffering for being different, but we can never accept the label [...]

Read the full comment 'Macedonian' as an ethnic term. That is why we say Slavomacedonians or Skopians, because they are not Greek Macedonians or Bulgarian Macedonians, they are Slavomacedonians and they are different from Greeks, Albanians, Serbs, Bulgarians and we respect that difference.

To Zdravets,
Ah yes, the Republic of Krusevo. A dream of democracy against tyranny. But it died. Then came Yugoslavia, and now FYROM with 'ethnic maps'. Fyrom did not chose the name 'Krusevo' because Skopje did not like its democratic manifesto.

You said, "When are you going to get out of my country?"... You want Macedonia to join with FYROM and kick us out. I said, you have "every right to remain in your native Greece", to remain in your/mine/our Greek province of Macedonia. So the Krusevo Manifesto lives in my words, the fascist [...]

Read the full comment state of Gruevski lives in your words.

And no party in Greece has 'ethnic maps of a greater Greece'. There are treaty maps of gains and losses, like all states have them, but no ethnic maps. Only Nazi Germany and now Fyrom and their puppets in Greece, Australia, etc have such maps.

To Macedonian Democratis

No you are wrong. The Krusevo Manifesto expresses what Macedonians then and now were/are seeking to achieve.

It is Greece who doggedly pursues a pure race. If my words come across in a similar vein, well then enjoy some of your own medicine.

To Bulgo et al

I repeat, you are wasting your time trying to portray Macedonians as Bulgarians. You are going down a dead end street.

Why? Because Macedonians in the Republic, in Greek occupied Macedonia, in Bulgarian occupied Macedonia, in the Diaspora and increasingly in world public opinion KNOW THEY ARE MACEDONIANS!

Bulgo you and your compatriots should wake up. You are not going to change what is unfolding. The world is moving forward. You will be left behind on your present course.

What [...]

Read the full comment good have Greece's policies been? Greece's economy is bankrupt. The culture is intolerant and corrupt. Greek youth despair over the squandering of their future. Greece's birth rate is declining. Greece's reputation in the world has been damaged.

Keep chirping your same song. It reminds me of those Europeans who centuries ago warned their sailors not to sail out too far from shore because the world is flat and they will fall off.

To Zdravets,
Mr Zdravets wants a final solution. He believes that Macedonia is occupied by Greece, that there are no Macedonians who are Greeks... but I offer him the fascist crown for saying: "When are you going to get out of my country?" He wants to wipe out Greek presence from Macedonia.

The truth is that, there are Greek refugees in Macedonia from Turkey, from Vardarska Banovina, from Bulgaria. And refugees in Fyrom from Greece. And refugees in Bulgaria from Fyrom and from Greece.
But Zdravets wants a 'pure Macedonia', he says [...]

Read the full comment the refugees must get out... or what? His answer is in Fyrom propaganda: images of guns and irredentist maps of an ethnic pure 'Macedonia'. But I forgive Zdravets, he is a victim of Skopje propaganda (but I do not forget what he said). Greece has given birth to a few fascists and he is obviously one of them, but he has every right to remain in his native Greece.

US historian Loring Danforth writes:

"The history of the construction of a Macedonian national identity does not begin with Alexander the Great in the fourth century B.C. or with Saints Cyril and Methodius in the ninth century A.D. as Macedonian nationalist historians often claim." ("The Macedonian Conflict: Ethnic Nationalism in a Transnational World", Princeton Univ Press, December 1995 p.56)

"The political and military leaders of the Slavs of Macedonia at the turn of the century seem not to have heard Misirkov's call for a separate Macedonian national identity; they continued to identify [...]

Read the full comment themselves in a national sense as Bulgarians rather than Macedonians." (p.64)

Denko Maleski, former Minister of foreign affairs, is another thats admitted his Bulgarian roots.

"The creation of the Macedonian nation, for almost half of a century, was done in a condition of single-party dictatorship. In those times, there was no difference between science and ideology, so the “Macedonian” historiography, unopposed by anybody, comfortably performed a selection of the historic material from which the “Macedonian” identity was created. There is nothing atypical here for the process of the creation of any modern nation, except when falsification from the type of substitution of the word “Bulgarian” with the [...]

Read the full comment word “Macedonian” were made.

Read the interview yourself if you don't believe me Zdravets.

utrinski.com.mk/?ItemID=C7A7DD4ECD45C946BF6573284EC01164

Ljubco Georgievski wasn't ashamed to admit his ethnic Bulgarian roots. He is man enough they he doesn't need to build a fake identity for himself. (From his book 'Facing the truth')

'Why are we ashamed and flee from the truth that whole positive Macedonian revolutionary tradition comes exactly from exarchist part of Macedonian people? We shall not say a new truth if we mention the fact that everyone, Gotse Delchev, Dame Gruev, Gjorche Petrov, Pere Toshev - must I list and count all of them - were teachers of the Bulgarian Exarchate in Macedonia.'
[...]

Read the full comment

Here again are the words of ethnic Bulgarian patriot Krste Misirkov. Why does Gruevski hide these words in this schoolbooks? Is he ashamed of FYROM's ethnic Bulgarian past?

"We are Bulgarians, more Bulgarians than the Bulgarians in Bulgaria themselves."[...]'And, anyway, what sort of new Macedonian nation can this be when we and our fathers and grandfathers and great-grandfathers have always been called Bulgarians?

"Who is against a greater Bulgaria is against Slavism"

"Macedonians means only Macedonian Bulgarians"

“The only Macedonian Slavs who played a [...]

Read the full comment leading part in the Uprising were those who called themselves Bulgarians.”


“We did indeed call ourselves “Bulgarians” and “Christians” in the national sense”




“The first objection — that a Macedonian Slav nationality has never existed — may be very simply answered as follows: what has not existed in the past may still be brought into existence later, provided that the appropriate historical circumstances arise.”


“No matter whether we call ourselves Bulgarians or Macedonians we shall always feel as a nationality with a Bulgarian national consciousness,”

“We are Bulgarian more than the Bulgarians in Bulgaria. The population of Skopje is pure Bulgarian. The Serbian not only want to colonize Macedonia with Serbs from other part of Yugoslavia, but they wish to kill our Bulgarian consciousness.


“The Ilinden Uprising of 1903 had a pronounced effect on me and caused me to make some mistakes which completely isolated me from the Bulgarian cause in Macedonia. With great respect I was forced to temporarily renounce completely working for the realization of the Bulgarian national ideals[...] “The same Mr Zanetov gave me the idea to appeal to you and ask for a lecturing position at the Bulgarian Male Gymnasium in Salonika. I agreed with satisfaction to Mr Zanetov’s proposal, since in this way I would receive the opportunity, anew, and according to my ability to serve the Bulgarian national interest and ideals”

“If the question of racial similarity and difference between Bulgarians and Macedonians comes to be resolved on the basis of the national name, language and history, there is no doubt that we should resolve it as a Greek priest did in 1804; author of a four-language dictionary Greek, Bulgarian, Rumanian and Albanian and who regarded as Bulgarian the Western Macedonian dialect. Therefore when in Macedonia and Bulgaria there was no mention of the Bulgarian Exarchate, the Greeks, obviously well acquainted with the Balkan nationalities, do not make any distinction between a Bulgarian, a Macedonian and a Macedonian Slav. We the Macedonians, cannot, and have no reason to ignore this and similar facts, which can be quoted by the hundreds. We cannot ignore them because to do so means to distort our history, to hide the truth and to deceive ourselves.”

Zdravets, unfortunately Gruevski hides information from his own citizens.

The original plan of IMRO was to manipulate the name to get the great powers on Bulgaria's side versus Greece. They obviously couldn't come right out and say (and that's exactly why their are so many contradictory quotes)

Hristo Tatarchev wrote:

"We talked a long time about the goal of this organization and at last we fixed it on autonomy of Macedonia with the priority of the Bulgarian element. We couldn't accept the position for "direct joining to Bulgaria" [...]

Read the full comment because we saw that it would meet big difficulties by reason of confrontation of the Great powers and the aspirations of the neighbouring small countries and Turkey. It passed through our thoughts that one autonomous Macedonia could easier unite with Bulgaria subsequently and if the worst comes to the worst, that it could play a role as a unificating link of a federation of Balkan people"

Ivan Hadzhinikolov in his memoirs wrote some of principles of the IMRO's foundation:

1. The revolutionary organization should be established within Macedonia and should act there, so that the Greeks and Serbs couldn't label it as a tool of the Bulgarian government. (i.e. that it was in fact working for Bulgarian interests)

2. Its founders should be locals and living in Macedonia.

3. The political motto of the organization should be the autonomy of Macedonia.

4. The organization should be secret and independent, without any links with the governments of the liberated neighborly states, and

5. From the Macedonian emigration in Bulgaria and the Bulgarian society, only moral and material help for the struggle of the Macedonian revolutionaries should be required.

When Yugoslavia took control of the region Bulgarian Macedonia patriots tried to take the land from the Serbs in the 30s but failed. IMRO actually supported Bulgaria during WW2 (up to the point the war seemed lost then switched to the communists)
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ivan_Mihailov#1934_-_1944

Unfortunately the "Macedonia" propaganda got out of control under Tito. He took it to the next level and tried to erase all traces of your Bulgarian roots (even changing the language) Tito feared Bulgarian patriots annexing the region and also wanted to annex the Macedonia region of Greeks.

(Unless you are prepared to accuse the US government of attempted genocide)

"This (US) Government considers talk of Macedonian "nation", Macedonian "Fatherland", or Macedonia "national consciousness" to be unjustified demagoguery representing no ethnic nor political reality, and sees in its present revival a possible cloak for aggressive intentions against Greece." - U.S government 1944

These are historical facts. Only the idiotic ultra-nationalists in FYROM believe Gruevski historical gibberish. You will not find one accredited historian on the planet (outside of FYROM crackpot historians) that claims FYROM nationalists are direct descendants of ancient Macedonians.

Even Risto Stefov, one of FYROM's more famous "historians" lies through his teeth about his own ethnic Bulgarian roots (to swindle people buy his books). You are free to look up Stefov's family history if you don't believe me.

Skopidonian political elite is so brain-washed they can put North Koreans to shame ...

To Bulgodonia, Kalle and your compatriots

You are wasting your time portraying Macedonians as Bulgarians. It won’t work.

"Macedonia has its own interests and its own politics which belong to the Macedonians. The one who works for joining of Macedonia to Bulgaria, Greece, or Serbia, can consider himself as a good Bulgarian, Greek, or Serb, but not as good Macedonian" (Gotse Delchev, Internal Macedonian Revolutionary Organization, 1902)

The Macedonian revolutionaries fought for an independent Macedonia and their motto was "Macedonia for the Macedonians."

“May [...]

Read the full comment God bless our holy struggle for justice and freedom!
Long live the fighters for freedom and all honest and good Macedonian sons.
Hurrah! For "Autonomous Macedonia!” (Closing words to Krusevo Manifesto, 1903)

“Yet, as far as I could see, the country - and I am determined to call it Macedonia - has a perfect right to exist. The population is overwhelmingly Macedonian, with a distinctive language, culture and history. (David Cameron, Prime Minister, United Kingdom, 2003)

“I think that Macedonia has the right to be in NATO, that it meets all required conditions. and it is really damaging, I would say a scandal, that Macedonia has not been invited.” (Lord Robertson, Former Secretary of NATO, 2009)

"The country that is now named Macedonia was called the same during its existence as a republic within the former Yugoslavia. Did this fact lead to serious problems between Greece and Yugoslavia or between Greece and the Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia? There were misunderstandings now and then, but they never reached a point when they would pose a threat to peace in the region. Is there anything more immature and more foolish than 'blackmailing' a nation by denying its membership in international organizations, which goal is to preserve the peace and protect their members from aggression of non-members.” (Lawrence Eagleburger, Fomer United States Secretary of State, 2010)

The independent expert urges the Government of Greece to withdraw from the dispute
over whether there is a Macedonian or a Turkish minority in Greece and focus on protecting the
rights to self-identification, freedom of expression and freedom of association of those
communities. (Gay McDougall, United Nations Human Rights Council, 2009)

"We have lost the naming game before it started. Open any book anywhere that was published before 1990. We seem to forget easily, or we don't wish to remember... Greece was playing Yugoslavia in Skopje as part of football qualifications. Greece lost 4-1. No one, not our fans, or players reacted that we played in "Macedonia", nor did the name bother us," (Serafim Fintanidis, former owner Eleftherotypia, 2010)

VIVA LA MACEDONIA! (Pope Benedict XVI, 2009)

To the ethnic Bulgarians of FYROM that want to finally free themselves of Gruevski's bizarre attempts to Hellenize you-speak out against the ultra nationalists amongst you trying ethnically cleanse your ethnic Bulgarian heritage.

This is not what Gruev, Misirkov, and Delchev wanted. They wanted you to be ethnic Bulgarians not ethnic Macedonians.

Gruev: "We are Bulgarians and we always work and will work for the unification of the Bulgariandom.”

Delchev: "We are Bulgarians" tinyurl.com/2vsvo3f

Misirkov: “The Ilinden Uprising of 1903 had a pronounced effect [...]

Read the full comment on me and caused me to make some mistakes which completely isolated me from the Bulgarian cause in Macedonia. With great respect I was forced to temporarily renounce completely working for the realization of the Bulgarian national ideals[...] “The same Mr Zanetov gave me the idea to appeal to you and ask for a lecturing position at the Bulgarian Male Gymnasium in Salonika. I agreed with satisfaction to Mr Zanetov’s proposal, since in this way I would receive the opportunity, anew, and according to my ability to serve the Bulgarian national interest and ideals”

"With the proclamation of the new Socialist Republic of Macedonia, there were started measures that would overcome the pro-Bulgarian feeling among the population.It has been claimed that from 1944 till the end of the 1940s people espousing a Bulgarian ethnic identity had been oppressed. According to Bulgarian sources more than 100,000 men were imprisoned and some 1,200 prominent Bulgarians were sentenced to death."

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedonian_Bulgarians

"The history of the construction of a Macedonian national identity does not begin with Alexander the Great in the fourth century B.C. or with Saints Cyril and Methodius in the ninth century A.D. as Macedonian nationalist historians often claim."

"The political and military leaders of the Slavs of Macedonia at the turn of the century seem not to have heard Misirkov's call for a separate Macedonian national identity; they continued to identify themselves in a national sense as Bulgarians rather than Macedonians."

Loring Danforth, "The Macedonian Conflict: Ethnic Nationalism in a Transnational [...]

Read the full comment World", Princeton Univ Press, December 1995)

FYROM ultra-nationalists have betrayed ethnic Bulgarian hero Krste Misirkov. (and now threaten both Greece and Bulgaria with their historical gibberish)

“The only Macedonian Slavs who played a leading part in the Uprising were those who called themselves Bulgarians.”

“But now cries from the Macedonians can be heard: we are Bulgarians, we are more Bulgarians than the Bulgarians themselves. …….. You could be victors over Bulgaria and impose on it all sorts of treaties but this cannot change our conviction, our consciousness that we are not Serbians, that up till now we have [...]

Read the full comment called ourselves Bulgarians and this is what we are today and this is what we want to be called in the future.”

"We are Bulgarians, more Bulgarians than the Bulgarians in Bulgaria themselves."[...]'And, anyway, what sort of new Macedonian nation can this be when we and our fathers and grandfathers and great-grandfathers have always been called Bulgarians?"

“The Ilinden Uprising of 1903 had a pronounced effect on me and caused me to make some mistakes which completely isolated me from the Bulgarian cause in Macedonia. With great respect I was forced to temporarily renounce completely working for the realization of the Bulgarian national ideals[...] “The same Mr Zanetov gave me the idea to appeal to you and ask for a lecturing position at the Bulgarian Male Gymnasium in Salonika. I agreed with satisfaction to Mr Zanetov’s proposal, since in this way I would receive the opportunity, anew, and according to my ability to serve the Bulgarian national interest and ideals”


“If the question of racial similarity and difference between Bulgarians and Macedonians comes to be resolved on the basis of the national name, language and history, there is no doubt that we should resolve it as a Greek priest did in 1804; author of a four-language dictionary Greek, Bulgarian, Rumanian and Albanian and who regarded as Bulgarian the Western Macedonian dialect. Therefore when in Macedonia and Bulgaria there was no mention of the Bulgarian Exarchate, the Greeks, obviously well acquainted with the Balkan nationalities, do not make any distinction between a Bulgarian, a Macedonian and a Macedonian Slav. We the Macedonians, cannot, and have no reason to ignore this and similar facts, which can be quoted by the hundreds. We cannot ignore them because to do so means to distort our history, to hide the truth and to deceive ourselves.”

Yugoslav communists forcibly assimilated ethnic Bulgarian Macedonians into "ethnic Macedonians". To this day Bulgarians in FYROM continue to be persecuted (to force them to give up their own Bulgarian heritage and pretend to be "ethnic Macedonians")

'Why are we ashamed and flee from the truth that whole positive Macedonian revolutionary tradition comes exactly from exarchist part of Macedonian people? We shall not say a new truth if we mention the fact that everyone, Gotse Delchev, Dame Gruev, Gjorche Petrov, Pere Toshev - must I list and count all of them - were teachers of the Bulgarian [...]

Read the full comment Exarchate in Macedonia.'
(former Prime Minister of FYROM, Ljubco Georgievski, 2007, in his book 'Facing the truth')

FYROM ultra-nationalists keep changing ethnic narratives. They hide and lie about their own ethnic Bulgarian heritage like Greek government accountants their fiances.

Stop pretending to be "Macedonians" already FYROM. No serious historian on the planet believes your ridiculous state myths. (and stop suggesting Bulgarian and Greece are "occupied" using your silly stories)

"The creation of the Macedonian nation, for almost half of a century, was done in a condition of single-party dictatorship. In those times, there was no difference between science and ideology, so the “Macedonian” historiography, unopposed by anybody, comfortably performed [...]

Read the full comment a selection of the historic material from which the “Macedonian” identity was created. There is nothing atypical here for the process of the creation of any modern nation, except when falsification from the type of substitution of the word “Bulgarian” with the word “Macedonian” were made.
(Denko Maleski, former FYROM Minister of foreign affairs)

Zdravets

Maybe you should read what 400 world famouse historians have to say about your propaganda:

They write:

"The answers are clear: Alexander the Great was Greek, not Slavic, and Slavs and their language were nowhere near Alexander or his homeland until 1000 years later. "

"the government in Skopje to understand that it cannot build a national identity at the expense of historic truth. Our common international society cannot survive when history is ignored, much less when history is fabricated."

[...]

Read the full comment /> 3w dot macedonia-evidence dot org

To everyone that dont understand why Greece is blocking Fyrom from joining Nato and Eu just read Zdravets extrem nationalistic comments (the same as Fyroms government).

Here we have former self determined Bulgarians that has been taught communist propaganda that is totaly disconnected to history we know in the rest of the world.

Obviously we can not invite countries that is hostile to our territory and history.

First fyrom needs to start to act like a civilised country and stop falsfying the history in the area for politial [...]

Read the full comment reasons.

How can an identity have a place in EU and Nato when is whole esens is created by falsifying of history. Every historical character have in Fyroms history books been falsified, hence Bulgarian heros like Tsar Samuil , Milidanov brothers have become "ethnik "Macedonians" , Greek characters like Alexander and Cyril have become "ethnik macedonians". All at the purpose to create an imaginary "ethnik Maacedonian" country that has never existed in history

The fine Greek piece.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BbwEvDCyqjk

To Kalle and compatriots

Your comments fall far short of reality. There is no Greek Macedonian dialect; just like there are no Greek Macedonians. Unlike you, I don't need any historian to tell me anything.

Kalle my dear, I am born and raised in Greek Occupied Macedonia. I am Macedonian. Not Greek. Not Bulgarian. I speak the language of the people in the Republic of Macedonia.

When are you going to get out of my country?

Let us in the meantime enjoy our humanity. [...]

Read the full comment I offer you some Macedonian and Greek singing and dancing with the links below.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LmdEN0ONB90&feature=related

This one is Greek. It is nice.

[deleted link]

Zdravets wrote
"Again Kalle, et al, what about the Macedonians around you whose native language is Macedonian. "

The Macedonians around us are Greeks speak the Macedonian Greek dialect mentioned by historians

""Macedonian" was a strong dialect of very early Greek
" Nicholas Geoffrey Lemprière Hammond, "A History of Greece to 323 BC", Cambridge University, 1986 (p 516)

Why should we mention any other people and their language Macedonian? We are already using the name for us self!

We could [...]

Read the full comment call it slavic Macedonian

Zdravets

American cronicle is one of the main place for fyroms diaspora and their main arcitecht Risto Stefou.

I bet if I search with your text there - it will be from an article written by Risto.

Risto is no historians , no politician. His only goal is to write as propaganda articles as possible. He is one of the main reasons former self determined Bulgarians belives they are direct descents of ancient macedonian Greeks. His articles are unscientifc rubbish

To Kalle

The American Chronicle is not a nationalistic website.

Panayote Dimitras: ``It is essentially not about the name but about the identity. Greece refuses to accept that there can be a Macedonian ethnic identity anywhere and most importantly within its territory, where no ethnic minorities are recognized, be they Macedonian or Turkish.``

Again Kalle, et al, what about the Macedonians around you whose native language is Macedonian.

Zdravets

Here are the Macedonians through each historical time period. Obviously they where Greeks


Zdravets

Maybe you can enlighten us with the historical "ethnik" Macedonians through each time period. Please reference real history books and not nationalistics propaganda sites from Fyrom

en dot wikipedia dot org/wiki/Macedonians_(Greeks)

Zdravets
Please use recognised sources. Text from nationalisitc sites are not valid.

If you want to learn the historical demographics of Macedonia you can go to the link below. You will see there are no "ethnik" Macedonians through any time period. Becuase back then your ancestor where freely self determined Bulgarians. You will also see that Greeks have always lived in the area

en dot wikipedia dot org/wiki/Demographic_history_of_Macedonia

To Kalle, Pesna na Vardar, Spartan, Nick and all your compatriots

The metropolitan of Florina Augustinos Kandiotis was right when he said “If the hundreds of thousands of refugees had not come to Greece, Greek Macedonia would not exist today. The refugees created the national homogeneity of our country‘. ``Fields of wheat, hills of blood by Anastasia N. Karakasidou, 1997, page 41``


``The "Greek-Macedonian" phenomenon is a Greek State response to the Republic of Macedonia's declaration of independence. There were no "Greek-Macedonians" before the 1980's, in fact the official Greek [...]

Read the full comment Position has been that "Macedonians do not exist". Greece created the so called "Greek-Macedonians" to rob the real Macedonians of their heritage. ``

Would you care to comment about the Macedonians around you, the ones whose native language is Macedonian, whom you say `do not exist`

In my point of view,its crystal clear that there is no Macedonian nation or Macedonian language.With regard to the claims that there are parts of Macedonia that are ''occupied'' by Greece and Bulgaria are completely nonsenses,escalate the tensions in the region and verify the Greek claims that FYROM eyes territories of other countries.As far as the NATO summit in Lisbon is concerned,its obvious that nothing is going to be done since nothing has changed since April 2008 summit in Buchurest.

Communist in Yugoslavia engineered a 'Macedonian" identity

Krste Crvenkovski, President of the Central Committee of the Union of Communists in the Socialist Republic of Macedonia, to Todor Zhivkov, First Secretary of the Central Committee of the Communist Party of Bulgaria (May 19, 1967)

“And whether bulgarian consciousness exists in Macedonia, this is a historical legacy. We’re now writing our history. We can’t write that until 1940 we were Bulgarians and after 1940 Macedonians.”

More heors from Fyrom highlightinh their Bulgarian roots:

Hristo Tatarchev – founding member BMARC/IMRO)
“We talked a long time about the goal of this organization and at last we fixed it on autonomy of Macedonia with the priority of the Bulgarian element. We couldn’t accept the position for “direct joining to Bulgaria” because we saw that it would meet big difficulties by reason of confrontation of the Great powers and the aspirations of the neighbouring small countries and Turkey. It passed through our thoughts that one autonomous Macedonia could easier unite with Bulgaria…”
[...]

Read the full comment />
Statutes of BMARC co-authored by Gotse Delchev and other future IMRO members"
Art. 2. To achieve this goal they [the committees] shall raise the awareness of self-defense in the BULGARIAN population in the regions mentioned in Art. 1., disseminate revolutionary ideas – printed or verbal, and prepare and carry on a general uprising.
Chapter II.– Structure and Organization
Art. 3. A member of BMARC can be any BULGARIAN , independent of gender

Clearly they where all ethnik Bulgarians renamed later to Macedonians in communist Yugoslavia

Zdravets
Realy! Words from Misirikov

“No matter whether we call ourselves Bulgarians or Macedonians we shall always feel as a nationality with a Bulgarian national consciousness,”


"Some will ask why I speak of breaking away from the Bulgarians when in the past we have even called ourselves Bulgarians and when it is generally accepted that unification creates strength, and not separation."

"We are Bulgarians, more Bulgarians than the Bulgarians in Bulgaria themselves.
Krste Misirkov, "On Macedonian Matters",
"And, anyway, what [...]

Read the full comment sort of new Macedonian nation can this be when we and our fathers and grandfathers and great-grandfathers have always been called Bulgarians? "

“We did indeed call ourselves “Bulgarians” and “Christians” in the national sense”

Krste Misirkov, "On Macedonian Matters", Macedonian Review Editions 1974, (Sofia 1903)

so lets examine fyrom other heros"

To Kalle

Since you chose to quote Krste Petkov Misirkov , I offer you a few more of his quotes.

"I hope it will not be held against me that I, as a Macedonian, place the interests of my country before all... I am a Macedonian, I have a Macedonian's consciousness, and so I have my own Macedonian view of the past, present, and future of my country and of all the South Slavs; and so I should like them to consult us, the Macedonians, about all the questions concerning us and [...]

Read the full comment our neighbors, and not have everything end merely with agreements between Bulgaria and Serbia about us - but without us."

“The awareness and the feeling that I am Macedonian should stand higher than everything else in the world. Macedonians should not let themselves be assimilated and to lose their individuality living among Bulgarians and Serbs. We can acknowledge the closeness of the Serb, Bulgarians and Macedonian interests, but we need to evaluate them from the Macedonian point of view.”

“Our relations with the Bulgarians have been extremely close as a result of the general situation in Turkey: we were brothers through destiny and our relations were equal towards the government and the Phanariot Order. We were given, in our common fate, the common name of Bulgarians right up to the liberation of Bulgaria, and even after the liberation of Bulgaria this remained a tradition in Macedonia. This was the basis on which the Bulgarians established their pretensions to Macedonia; but the Macedonians had expected to be liberated by the Bulgarians.”

For Misirkov to have said he was Bulgarian is analogous to U.S. President Kennedy saying “I am a Berliner!”

Both men were responding to pressing circumstances of the day.

JON;;AUSTRALIAN
We must never forget why Fyrom was created in communist Yugoslavia. Its only purpose was to grab Greek land. The threat remains even to day and carried through by the extrem nationalistic government in Fyrom. Usa protested when Fyrom was created

"This Government considers talk of Macedonian "nation", Macedonian "Fatherland", or Macedonia "national consciousness" to be unjustified demagoguery representing no ethnic nor political reality, and sees in its present revival a possible cloak for aggressive intentions against Greece."

U.S STATE DEPARTMENT Foreign Relations Vol. VIII Washington D.C. Circular Airgram [...]

Read the full comment (868.014/26 Dec. 1944)

To zdravets

We as Greeks are always calm unlike your brainwashed theories. Why don't you guys ever provide evidence, our Greece has so much that it almost wraps around the
known universe oops another Greek word.

You keep mentioning this expulsion of Bulgars in 1913, provide me evidence and not from the gruvski library. In fact, provide us with any bit of evidence just a tiny bit so we could understand where you're coming from.

It is obvious that your nation has been subjected to extremely [...]

Read the full comment harsh leadership on it's people. That is, brainwashing them, using the lowest form of propaganda and basically instilling some sort of warped communism and a twisted fascinism.

20 years ago when you really change your country's name, we probably gave you the opportunity to come into the fold even as you were Slavic bulgar speaking people. But your people decided to instead call yourselves something out of the Ancient past... How sick is that.

I know you feel offended right now because remember you're brainwashed into believing you were the chosen people to the Macedonian name.

To Zdravets

I will say it again. Macedonia is not only Greek, and Macedonia is not only Makedonci. The Slav Macedonians/Makedonci must accept that Macedonia was and is also Greek. And Greeks must accept that Macedonia today is also Slav Macedonian/Makedonci.
When you speak about 'Greek occupied Macedonia' you are saying that you want to exterminate us from Greek Macedonia (just like we were exterminated from Turkey and from Bitola/Monastiri); and you are implying that you want to exterminate Bulgarians from Blagoevgrad province. When we hear this, that is when we Macedonians who are [...]

Read the full comment Greeks become very anti 'Fyrom', when you say that we did not call ourselves Macedonians before the 1980s, when you use maps of greater Macedonia in your school books.

You have to recognise that we, Greeks, call ourselves Macedonians, that we have a long history and presence in Macedonia. Then, we Greeks must recognise that you, Slav Macedonians/Makedonci, also have a long presence in Macedonia.

You have to say in your blogs and your newspapers in Skopje that millions of Macedonians are ethnic Greeks, and some are ethnic Bulgarians. And we must say in our blogs and our newspapers in Athens that Macedonians are also Slav Macedonians/Makedonci.

You say that you were exterminated from Greece. But for Greeks and Bulgarians everyone then agreed that you were Bulgarians. Between 1913 and 1920s Greece and Bulgaria exchanged populations. But now you come and say that was 'extermination'. You do not try to understand. When you start understanding and stop speaking like a 'terrorist' then we will embrace you and we will understand your suffering and we will grow stronger together.

the dispute between greece and macedonia has been draged for a long time ,this is not a reason for keeping macedonia out of nato;;the country has met the mebership standards and contributed to a numerous nato led missions praticulary in afganiston .lebanon. bosnia,,and more..;; macedonia has been blocked by one meber only who abuses;; its VITO RIGHTS,BREACHING THE ALLIANCE PRINCIPLES;;; this year greece is a ricipient of large financial ,political support it fail to pay back ,in fortunateley it is already a member of the club and it dopsent play fair role;;;;;macedonia i will saycan only be macedonian;; greeks must [...]

Read the full comment be shame and nato ;;and eu ;; fornot supporting macedonia over greek obsession/;;and europeans..must come clean;;macedonia never start this problem remeber;;greece start with very large propaganda ;;first with ancient crap;;macedonian history not for sale;;;to greece or to the world;;macedonia always is macedonian;;full stop ..thankyou ,,have a nice day;;be happy;;;;

This comment has been removed by the moderator because it contained foul, abusive or discriminating language

Why is Fyroms obsessed with the Greek word and history of Macedonia

they dont live on the ancient macedonian territory

They where never macedonians before communist yugoslavia but Bulgarians

Their heros, language , culture , history and traditions are mainly bulgarian

why are they alwyas avoiding their true Bulgarian history. There has never existed any "ethnik' Macedonians in any historical time period.

What is this obsessions about Macedonia. All Fyroms heros where self determined bulgarians the fought to unite with Bulgaria:

here are the words from Misirikov

"We are Bulgarians, more Bulgarians than the Bulgarians in Bulgaria themselves."[...]'And, anyway, what sort of new Macedonian nation can this be when we and our fathers and grandfathers and great-grandfathers have always been called Bulgarians?
"

Why should the Macedonians in Greece that speak the ancient macedonian langauge(Doric Greek) call former self determined Bulgarians for Macedoanians?

All Fyroms traditions , culture , language and history is mainly Bulgarian. You renamed yourself to Macedonians less than 70 years ago. You fought to unite with Bulgaria before that. When you lost the battle you renamed yourself to "Macedonians". Fyroms immigrants to Canada and USA entered as Bulgarians. Why should we accept your fairytales?

To Spartan

I do not believe myself to be brainwashed. Calm down. You are not the only one with fellow countrymen, fathers and forefathers who have fought for their country.

I do not seek to undermine.

Greece came to Macedonia in 1913. And what did Greece do to the Macedonians?

Spartan, there are three steps to destroying a nation. 1) eradicate as many as you can. 2) expel as many as you can, 3) forcibly assimilate those who are left.

[...]

Read the full comment And I have read history, thank you.

To zdravets

You mentioned many nations have been created and many more will continue to be created, but none have blatantly utilized another country's names or used their past heroes as for their own.

I offer this, I'll bet that my Greek brothers and sisters will agree to your little country to use Macedonia but for this to happen you'll have to provide that Macedonians did speak Greek and were not part of Hellenizing the known world.

However with one restriction, your source of data must be complete [...]

Read the full comment not small narratives and not from the Gruvski school.

To zdravets

Your arguements are of a brainwashed person desperate to some how in-line this small country to past greatness.

My Greek brothers, fathers and fore-fathers have battled and battled to save our country, culture and heritage with the utmost respect for their history and peoples.

So for you to undermine the above is disrecpectful and full of hatred. Just keep in mind without out ancestors you would not exist today. Now, why a name so important, read a little literature and history and not just from the [...]

Read the full comment world of Gruvski.

To Kalle

Today, there are people in the Republic of Macedonia, Bulgarian occupied Macedonia, and Greek occupied Macedonia who want to live simply as Macedonians, speak their Macedonian language, enjoy their Macedonian culture.

What do you propose?

Zdravets

You are trying to potray slavic Macedonian langauge as a parallell independent language to Bulgarian.

Bulgarian is a direct descent of old slavonic. Slavic Macedonian is a direct descent of Bulgarian hence it was called a Bulgarian dialect before 1944. It was communist in Titos yugoslavia that deliberatly for political reasons widen the gap to bulgarian by adding Serbian letters to this new language(before 1944 it was just a Bulgarian dialect).

Nationalist from Fyrom often tries to seperate it from Bulgarian and even connect it to ancient [...]

Read the full comment Macedonian(doric Greek)which is of course not historical true.

To Kalle

Both Macedonian and Bulgarian differ from other major Slavic languages in several features. Both are direct descendants of Old Church Slavonic. Under Ottoman rule, literary production was solely in Church Slavonic. The Bulgarian vernacular became a literary language only in the mid-19th century; it was codified on the basis of northeastern Bulgarian dialects in 1899.

Though efforts to create a literary Macedonian were underway before the Balkan Wars (1912 – 13), it was not formally recognized as a distinct language until the declaration of a Macedonian Republic within Yugoslavia in [...]

Read the full comment 1944. Hence, the detractors of the Macedonian language like to cover up the evolution and formation of literary Macedonian by saying it was created by Yugoslavia in 1944, as if it was done overnight or instantly.

To Pesna na Vardar

Speaking about "rights", are you ready to grant recognition and rights to the Macedonians around you. These are the indigenous people in Greek occupied Macedonia who speak the Macedonian language and whose culture and heritage have nothing to do with Greece?

As a Greek I say to my fellow Greeks that not all Slav Macedonians are Bulgarians. Most Slav Macedonians are Makedonci and so is the name of their language.

To Zdravets,
Greece and Greeks called their region Macedonia before 1980s. We had or have products like the Macedonian Bank, Macedonian wine, Macedonian Halva, 1913 heroes called Macedonian fighters (Makedonomahi). Our school maps showed our Macedonian province.
If you want Greeks to accept your name and language, you must also accept our Macedonian name and traditions in Greek Macedonia. If the Makedonci (or [...]

Read the full comment Slav Macedonians) cannot say 'Greek Macedonia' or accept openly that the region of Macedonia ALSO has an ancient and strong Greek identity, then the Greeks will never recogise your rights and that is more your problem than a Greek problem.
So go to your Makedonci blogs and Skopje newspaper and tell them in your language, Macedonia is ALSO Greek. And Greeks will accept that Macedonia is NOT only Greece.

Zdravets

The "Macedonian" langauge belongs to the branch of slavic languages.

It was created 1944 based on a Bulgarian dialect. The "ethnik Macedonians' indentity was created less than 100 years ago. Before that the same people where freely self determined as Bulgarians. Fyroms real ancestorslike Misirikov , Milidanov brothers, Tsar Samul , Sain Naum etc etc where Bulgarians that spoke nothing but Bulgarian.

People that cant accept the obviouse historical truth are heavy victims of state propaganda from the communist era up to today and Gruevski.

To SydneyMan

Can you accept change? Languages and people change and evolve. The map of the world today shows many more countries that didn't exist a century ago. Should we go chasing these countries to tell them who they really are and who they descend from?

To JBG

I agree. Leave Alexander out of this. I referred to him to simply to demonstrate he was not of Hellenic descent.

To FYROM Not Macedonians

The people from whom you call FYROM [...]

Read the full comment are as Macedonian, if not more than you are. They speak Macedonian, not Bulgarian. There are many universities in Europe and North America that teach the Macedonian language; even the U.S. State Department teaches the Macedonian language.

You say you are a True Macedonian from the Northern Province of Greece. That's fine by me. Indeed, there are Macedonians living there who speak the Macedonian language. And there also are people who were transplanted from Asia Minor in 1922-23 in the great population exchange between Turkey and Greece as part of the negotiations to end their conflict. Many of them did not speak Greek then, but they do so today.

To Corfu

Your post is unique and you made me laugh because of your style, but I do appreciate its message.

To Pesnata na Vardar

Prime Minister Gruevski's granfather was a Macedonian. His name, as well as the names of all Macedonians in Greek occupied Macedonia were forcibly hellenized by the Greek state in the 1920's. Many Macedonians were conscripted into the Greek Army.

You come across like everything Greece touches suddenly becomes Greek, just like your comment that "2 million Macedonians in Greece say they are Macedonian because they are Greek." Up until the mid 1980's Greece wouldn't tolerate anybody calling themself a Macedonian

Dear Zdravets,
The grandfather of Mr Gruevski fought and died in his Greek army as a Greek. Prime Minister Grouios is ashamed of his Greek heritage and roots.

Some citizens in the Republic of Macedonia are nothing but Makedonci but Mr Grouios is not one of them. Other citizens, like Mr Milososki and Mr L.Georgievski, are Bulgarians and have said so, and others are Albanians or Serbs.

And 2 million Macedonians in Greece say they are Macedonians because they are Greeks.

Macedonia is Greek
Greece is Roman
FYROM is Bulgarian
Bulgaria is Thracian
Thrace is Turkish
Turkey is confused
Confusion is bad for the nerves
Therefore, we are all nervous

To be slightly pedantic, it's not FYROM but fYRoM, if you read the relevant UN Resolution carefully. (If names are going to be so important, let's at least spell them correctly !)

First of all Gruevski the PM of FYROM is an Anti-Greek and has a personal vendetta against the Greeks by brainwashing its own people making them think that they are Macedonians, this is only hurting FYROM.

At the moment Greece is making the biggest mistake by allowing FYROM to even use the Greek name of Macedonia or Makedoski. FYROM and its people have nothing to do with the Ancient Macedonians who are Greek and even FYROM's territory never have been called Macedonia but "Vardaska" and before that "Southern Serbia" and in the ancients times was known [...]

Read the full comment as "Paeonia"...

FYROM are Bulgarians, they speak Bulgarian and they should not be using the Greek name of Macedonia not even North or New etc...

I am a True Macedonian from the Northern Province Of Greece, I have the rights to call myself Macedonian and NOT the people of FYROM. The Greeks have the rights to protect its history and culture.

FYROM should find another name and end this games of hate and lies towards Greece.

Alexander the Great has no ethnic connection to FYROM whatsoever.

Alexander the Great was of ancient Hellenic descent, spoke ancient Greek (not Slavic), participated in the Olympics games (non-Hellenes were excluded from the event), was schooled by Aristotle, and unified the ancient Hellenic states in order to expand his empire thus spreading Hellenism in the known world.

From a geographic perspective, I can understand why someone from FYROM would want to be known as a Macedonian however to claim it on historic falsehood is a disservice which makes your nation a laughing [...]

Read the full comment stock for historians. I would strongly recommend leaving Alexander the Great out of this.

Today we all write in English - so is the trend of time. Will this make us all English one day, is someone reads few centuries later? Back then Greek was the "international" language. I am Bulgarian by the way. But what is Bulgarian also is a myth. The ancient Moesi and Thracians were called Bulgarian. Only a DNA test can prove who we are. I have mine tested at National Geographic and it proves we are on the Balkans for the last 18 000 yrs. Bulgarians came from Bactria and have Persian heritage. Todays' Bulgarians are mainly European-Mediterranean DNA [...]

Read the full comment with some traces left from those who came from Bactria. People also living in the Balkans left many times heading East - first because of climate change and Blask sea deluge. And second - Alexnder had many Thracians and Moesians in his army. Those misplaced during the Macedonian Kingdom later returned to their lands. Isn't it same today - people migrate for many reasons. And we speak English today - but we are what we are. I am called Bulgarianm but I know I am Moesian-Thrcian with some traces of Dinarc-Alpean and Bactrian.

Maori people of New Zealand are MAORI but today we call them New Zealanders. And their land Aotearoa is NZ today. Moesia is Bulgaria - see the map since 3 cent AD in Vatican. Macedonians are Illyrians - with Hellene DNA traces. The language we speak today does not speak emtirely who we are. Slavs are a myth too - Romans called the po;ulation SKLAVI (SLAVES) isn't it the same as Slavs for "SLAVIANI"?!? Climent from Ohrid says in his Chronicle THIS GREAT FATHER OF OURS AND SAINT OF BULGARIA WAS A DESCENDANT OF THE EUROPEAN MOESI - PEOPLE COMMONLY KNOWN AS BVLGARI (BULGARIANS).

THEY WERE DISPLACED IN THE OLD DAYS BY THE MILITARY POWER OF ALEXANDER (THE GREAT) FROM BRUSA NEAR OLYM...PUS TO THE... NORTH ATLANTIC OCEAN AND DEAD SEA, AND AFTER LONG TIME HAVE PASSED, RETURNED WITH STRONG ARMY, CROSSED DANUBE AND CONQUERED ALL THE NEIGHBORING AREAS: DALMATIA AND PANNONIA, THRACE AND ILLYRICUM, AND MUCH OF MACEDONIA AND THESSALY" LEGEND FROM OHRID BY CLEMENT OF OHRID CA. 840 – 916
This is Clement saying this and if we are "Bulgarians" and trust him - this should be enough for us to stop wondering WHO WE ARE

The way things are going Bulgo everything is going to be written in English one day than what are you going to do.
Gruevski is not ashamed of anything he is very proud to be Macedonian like i am and what are you going to do about that you WILL NEVER BE MACEDONIAN you will allways be TURKALATHES.

Dear Bulgo,

You are wrong in saying Prime Minister Gruevski is stalling. He has been Prime Minister of Macedonia only for four years. Greece is the one who has been arbitrarily stalling over the name for 20 years.

It would be wonderful if every nation on earth recognized Macedonia. It will be up to Greece to choose whether to stand alone or join the family of nations.

Your statement about Greek writings on ancient Macedonian artifacts is quite shallow. In the distant future, ancient artifacts will be found [...]

Read the full comment in India written in English. Will the excavators of the artifacts conclude the indigenous people were English? Furthermore, it is documented that Alexander's infantry spoke Macedonian and could not understand Greek. Alexander kept his Macedonian troops separate from the Greek units. A surviving papyrus fragment reveals that Ambiance, a Greek commander had to use a Macedonian interpreter to communicate with a Macedonian phalanx formation.

Your assertion that Yugoslavia renamed the Bulgarian dialect to Macedonian is simply wrong. The Macedonians in Greek occupied Macedonia, and in Bulgaria occupied Macedonia were outside of and beyond the reach of Yugoslavia. Even though they endured a centruy of brutal genocidal efforts by Greece and Bulgaria to wipe them out, the Macedonians remain as does their language, culture, history, and heritage.

Also, to call the Macedonian language a Bulgarian dialect is outdated. The world has moved on, but you are still standing there howling at the moon.

Please observe dear Bulgo. The Russians do not impose themselves on Belarussians and Ukranians to insist their language and ethnic roots are Russians. The Germans do not impose themselves on the Austrians and Dutch to insist their language and ethnic roots are German. The English peoples have no problem acknowledging their common language and ethnic heritage, yet they also have no problem acknowledging there are British, Americans, Canadians, Australians, New Zealanders. Can you imagine the English denying the unique individual national identities of these peoples? It would be unheard of. Only Bulgaria and Greece continue insisting that Macedonians are Bulgarian or Greek, when in fact these two are really howling about their fear of losing their hold on Macedonian lands which they took by military force and falsehoods in 1913.

In conclusion dear Bulgo, Prime Minister Gruevski cherishes his Macedonian roots. It is impossible for him to feel ashamed of his Bulgarian roots because he has none. Prime Minister Gruevski is standing there calmly, clearly and firmly on his Macedonian heritage, for himself and the Macedonian people.

i will strong support REPUBLIC OF MACEDONIA;;'ATHER COUNTRY START WITH THIS CRAP FROM 1991;;TILL TODAY BE COME VERY OBSSES OVER MACEDONIAN ISSUE;AND MACEDONIAN HISTORY;; SO NATO.AND ;EU .MUST STOP SUPPORTING ATHER CONTRY MACEDONIA AND REPUBLIC OF MACEDONIA ALWAYS WILL BE MACEDONIAN FOREVER..FULL STOP WITH CRAZY PROPAGANDA.. ALWAYS WHAT IS GOOD FOR ONE SIDE MUST BE FOR ATHER SIDE GOOD TWO. REPUBLIC OF MACEDONIA IS RECOGNIZED FROM 130 COUNTRY IN WORLD SO I CAN SE TO BE A PROBLEM'' ONLY PROBLEM I SEE IS ..ONE COUNTRY;;START THIS STUPID ISSUE;; NOW IS YOUR PROBLEM TO COME CLEAN;;; REPUBLIC OF MACEDONIA NEVER [...]

Read the full comment START THIS;;; SHAME ON YOU ALL AND ;;EU;;AND NATO''SHAME ON YOOU;; MACEDONIA NO NEED TO BULLIED.BY ANYBODY'''LIKE NATO;;OR EU;; MUST DO THIS AND THAT;;;CHANGE YOUR NAME;OR.RABISH;;;COUNTRY WHO START THIS CRAP OVER MACEDONIAN ISSUE MUST COME CLEAN AND FINISH;;;ONLY A WAY;;; MACEDONIA NOT TO BE PROBLEM ON THIS ISSUE''''''LONG LIVE REPUBLIC OF MACEDONIA AND PEOPLE OF REAL MACEDONIAN IN ALL OVER WORLD;; DO NOT GIVE IN YOU WILL BE WINER'' ATHER CONTRY..NATO..AND..EU..CONTRYS;;NOT NEED TO PLAY MIND GAME WITH PEOPLE OF REPUBLIC OF MACEDONIA;;SHAME ON THEMM;;THANKYOU'''

history can be changed, it always has and it always will.
lets get rid of this fake greek history.

Gruevski is playing mind games with both Greece and Bulgaria. He's stalling to get as many nations as possible to recognize him.

His tactic will fail because even if every nation on earth recognized the name, Greeks still won't. At last check ancient Macedonian artifacts continue to all be written in Greek not the Bulgarian dialect Bulgophobe Yugoslav communists renamed "Macedonian"

I have no idea why Gruevski is so ashamed of his Bulgarian roots and Hellenizing his country. Is cherishing his own Bulgarian heritage so horrible?