Epaminondas,thanks for understanding.I am Macedonian from the Greek part of Macedonia,I get hot under my colar when someone denise my existance.In Greece,the Greek governments through out the occupation of Macedonia since 1913 they have been issuing Laws againts the Macedonian people.It is abvious,we are different than the Greeks,otherwise these Laws would covered the Greek population as well,but they do not.The name issue is not the most importent for Greece,it is the recognition of the indigenouse Macedonians in Greece.I wont bore you any more,I hope you had a happy Easter.Have a nice day!

Peter - Piotr : i ja rowniez !
A truly Happy Easter - or Pasc Llawen as they say in my homeland (which is not England !) I agree with your earlier comments about the UN, by the way.

Epaminondas,I am fortunate to speak 5 languages.As I explained it the person who I correspond on this site does not understand the English language as he always talks about Skopje and skopiani and that we are different from the Macedonian language spoken and different from the Macedonians in the Aegean Macedonia.Ja vas bardzo prosze, nie uzivajcie slova tak jak przedtem.Zycie vam wesolyh swiat!

Peter / Piotr - bolshoye spasibo ! At least you didn't write in bloody Greek this time, dzieki Boze. Xristos voskrese vam tozhe.

Epaminondas,grkot ne me razbirashe i za tova sum pisal po negov jazik.Ja mu raspravav razlikata po megju Makedonja i Grcja za da mozi da razbere.Nesrekno sto on ima problem so razbiranje.Ja razbiram sto Vie ste bile Bulgarin,Epaminondas,ja sum Makedonec,do kraj na mojot zhivot ke se boram za nashite prava dali vo Grcja eli vo Bulgaria.Tvojeto komentiranje na grcki mislam otide preku mera.Ja ne upotrebuvam vakvii zborovi kako tvojte na internet.I believe everyone has a right to express him/herself what are their feelings as long as it is permitted on this site.Non the less,we have a right to protect what is [...]

Read the full comment the truth in whatever language can be understood better. It is Easter today,I wont bore you any more.Have a happy Easter and all the best!

In my ignorance, I thought this was intended to be an English language site. Obviously I was wrong.

It would be pardonable to use Bulgarian on occasion, as this is (after all) a Sofia medium, but all these recent posts are all Greek to me.

And they are also prolix and Far Too Long.

If I may be permitted two words of Greek myself - "Gami sou" to those clearly unable to express their passions in English on this site.

One can now begin [...]

Read the full comment to understand how the Greek economy got itself into such a dire mess......

Dimitri,den ine aftos pou les.O kirios Lithozoou den ine Makedonas,ine Ellinas.Dimitri, min nomizis pou emis i Makedoni apo ton Egeon den xeroume ti ginotan sta afta ta hronia,ke simera ti ginete.I dimokratia tis Ellados den ine dimokratia,gia emas tous Makedonous ine diktatoria.Ean ise stin Ellada,xeris poli orea ti egine sta horia tis Florinis otan o stratos ekane epihirisis.to thema ine,giati den kanan tis idies epihirisis sto Peloponiso?.xerete poso zimia ekanan sta horafia?.Giati mono enantion tous Makedones?.Kirie Dimitri,ego den ime enatio ton elliniko lao,ime enantios tin politiki tis Ellados.Giati i Makedoni den ehun ta idia dikeomata os oli ali,ke giati i [...]

Read the full comment Makedones den ehun to dikeoma na mathenun tin mitriki tous glossa,ops pandu sto kosmo i Ellines ehun nihterino sholio gia tous dikitou glossa os ke i Makedones ke ali pou menun sto kratos pou ego zo?tous odous ine grameni sta Anglika ke Ellinika eki pou ehi pio poli ellinas.Omos stin Ellada malon ola ta horia ine Makedonika sti Vorio Ellada,omiloun tin makedoniki glossa,imun eki,xero poli kala. O makedonikos laos fovate na omilisi tin glossa tou apo fovo,doulias ke alla.Entaxi,stin Makedoniki Dimokratia ehi 25% Alvanous,ehoun dikatous sholia,mathenun Alvanika ke makedonika na mboroun na dulevoun mazi me olous ton ergaton.Ego ime sto Kanada,oli mas zoume me irini anamesa mas.Ego psunizo se elliniko magazi opos sta makedonika ke opio magazi ehi afto pou hriazome horis diafora.Eho ke ellines filous,den me pirazi katholou.Den nomizis ean i Ellada kani ta idia os edo tha ine kalitera/(To recognize the Macedonian people because the Macedonians fought the occupiers durring the 2nd World War defending Greece.Durring the war after 1945 there were Macedonians and Greeks on both sides,why is Greece blaming only the Macedonian people? I can tell you why,because we are Macedonians.Giasou Dimitri,ke kali spera!

Peco
iparxi kapoios allos Dim. Lithoxoou grafei sto site toy ouraniou toksou (rainbow) mipos einai o idios

Dimitri,sinehisoume.I erotisi itan exis;I de erotisi gia tin glossa ihe os exis: Pia ine i mitriki sou glossa dil. pia ine i glossa tin opian emathes apo mikros ke tin opian omilis is tin ikian sou. ean i mitriki sou glossa den ine i elliniki,gnorizis ke tin Elliniki,(ne i ohi).I plirofories pou aforousan ti glossa ke ti thriskia ihe apofasisti na dimosieftoun oute to geografiko diamerisma.Gia afto to logo ihe programmatisti i dimosiefsi deka tomon,ena gia kathe diamerisma:"Sterea Ellas ke Eivoia, Thessalia ke Arta, Ionii Nisi, Kiklades Nisi, Peloponisos, Makedonia, Epiros, Nisi Egeou, Kriti, Ditiki Thraki".Me kivernitiki omos apofasi,dothike entoli [...]

Read the full comment na dimosieftoun moni i pente proti apo tous proanaferomenous topous. To elliniko kratos den antehe na anakinosi ta stihia tis apografis gia ti glossa ke ti thriskia ton neon ipikon tou pou zusan sti Makedonia ke tin Thraki. An to epratte,horis na paraharaxi tous arithmous, tha emfanizontan na ehi kataktisi periohes opou ite den ipirhan orthodoxi ellinofoni, ite i teleftei apotelousan mionotita. I politiki ke pnevmatiki igetes tou ellinikou ethnos ipostirizoun me pathos pos den iparhi makedoniko ethnos. Sto epihirima oti to ethnos apoteli mia ideologiki kinotita(ilikiasdio eoton) ke enas laos mesa apo ideologikous atrapous mbori na aftoanakirihthi se ethnos opos sinevi to 19 eona me tous Ellines ke stis arhes tou 20 eonas me tous Makedones, antapatoun afthereta men alla pisteftontas to pos ta ethni iparhun edo ke hiliades hronia ke evrazonte se vasika politismika stihia, to kiriotero de ex afton ine i glossa.Dimitri,xeris gia afta ta stihia?Afta ine gramena apo ton Dimitri Lithozoou tou 1920.Gia hara!

Dimitri,diavase gia tin apografi tou plithismou."I Makedoniki glossa stin apografy plithismou tou 1920.Ti 19 dekemvriou 1920 pragmatopiithike i geniki apografi tou plithismou tou ellinikou kratous ke ton ellinon ipikon pou vriskotan stin allodapi.I apografi afti itan i proti pliris katagrafi ton katikon ton neon eparhion tou ellinikou vasilion(ke ton idieteron haraktiristikon tous)kathos i "Aparithmisis ton katikon ton neon eparhion tis Ellados" pou diexihthi apo ton elliniko strato to Septemvrio tou 1913 parehi mono plirofories gia ton arithmo ton katikon ana ikismo ke diakrisi kata filo.To apografiko deltio to opio hrisimopiithike perielamvane erotimata gia to onoma,to eponimo, tin ilikia,ton topo geniseos, [...]

Read the full comment tin ipikotita,ti dimotikotita,tin ikogeniaki katastasi,tin ekpedevsi,to epagelma i tin pithani anergia,haraktirismo ton tiflon ke ton kofalalon ke idieteres erotisis gia ti thriskia ke ti glossa ton apografenton.Dimitri,tha sinehiso argotera me ta ipolita gramena.Gia sou.

This comment has been removed by the moderator because it contained off-topic content

A vre Peco xehasa o Papoulias is epirotis this no same Alvanos. Is same how skopiani different from Alvani or Kroati katalebes. Anyway Peco Paoulia is likin me he 12 chronia nearos from me but he also polemistis and in 1947 he also makin tous skopianopus runnin likin rabbits stis ttripes tous sta skopia. He havin kalo onoma polemistis no likin you skopiano president Ivanoki who genithike echtes and no havin experians only karagiezis for you bossi Gruvki the bureki man. H Makedonia yia tous Makedones tou Mega Alexandrou. Ta skopia yia tous skopianous tou Tito kalo e afti eine [...]

Read the full comment poli kalo. O Titos eitane ke aftos ena bureki pou nomise he takin Makedonioa alla you know istoria Peco he takin only tis bananes tou and the kakomiri palavi skopiani hasan ti zoi tous sti Makedonia yia tipota. Tora ta skopia ehoun ta spitia tous Bulgarous, Alvanous ke makedones who livin Monastiri, Ande Lipon Peco pali yia sou and speakin Kakosi sta skopia people and no forgetin eatin poli Piggy Piggy Praski sto skopiano pasch eine kalo for you people. A ne o Droutsas ehi Makedoniki mitera this why he speakin he Makedonos. You Peco is in Polonia is many skopianous ke alli Yugoslavi or no. Ande yiasou Peco kali sou mera apo ti Makedonia ke tous Makedones.

Ohi Peco kanis lathos, Ta skopia ehoun 66% Alvani, 23% Skopiani, ke iplopi Tourki, Bulgari, ke Makedones. Esi Peco ise Skopianos ke etsi o Titos se onomase. The Tito is you nonos Peco without Tito you people havi only Yugoslaviko onoma. Not forgetin in 1947 when you moro ta skopia with Tito tryin takin Makedonia but oi Makedones tou KKE/ELAS ke oi Bulgari tou SNOF beatin you back and you people apo taskopia runnin likin rabbits piso sta skopia. After that o nonos sas o Titos fobate tou Malkedones ke etsi ise Peco sti Poloni ke emeis oi Makedones sti [...]

Read the full comment Makedonia mas. Demosthenes Peco was Athineos not Makedonas. He not likin any other Ellines people not Makedones, not Spartiates, Not Mollosiani, not Arcadiaoi, not Arcananianoi. O demosrthenes callin al,l other Ellines bad names because he Athineos and thinkin his people best from all Ellines. But this not you problima Peco you is Skopainos comin sta Balkabnnia me tous Yugoslavous. My Bulgari fili apo ti Florina speakin you Peco likin other fasistes skopianous is mono problima. Likin you bossi Gruvki o fasistas you only knowin you istori from him. You bossi only good makin Bureki for you peoplesta skopia because he havin no mialo only bananes sto kefali so he can makin Bureki. He needin tiri ke alevri nothin more and no mialo only his heria. Peco ta skopia one day becomin Europaoi, you must slowly learnin Europaika eustimata not chopanika. You Peco must learnin how we Europaioi havin koultoura, politismos, ke melon. You livin Peco piso sta skopia likin old YugoSlaviki periodo you havin mia tripa in ground for you toilet youy must slowly buyin Europaiki toileta. I visitas sta skopia poles fores my sister livin sto Monastiri havin kalo kafenio we speakin with Makedones and Bulgari and this people speakin for many skopiani is likin tsigounides never comin leavin lefta becausa to kafenio is Makedoniko this no good Peco many you skopia people is rasistes. Lipon ande yiasou Peco speakin Kakosi sta skopia [people and tha sou miliso argotera. No forgetin eatin Pigggy piggy Praski for you pascha entaxi. Ande yiasou Peco apo ti Florina pou oi pio dynati Makedones menoun. 1947 you peoplesta skopia knowin this dynati Makedones my polemistes. Ego imouna o dynamitis yia to ELAS ke oi Bulgari fili apo to 27 sytagma helpin filakosi many prodotes skopianous tou Tito. Kalo Pascha Peco sta skopia or sti Polonia

Dimitri,you have no clue about the Macedonians,do you?. Let me tell you about your people;66% you are Albanians together with your president Papulis(Sulayman) original name,there are Macedonians,Pontious who are Christian but not Greek,Vlahs,Roma and others.What is there left? No real Greeks.The name Greece was given to you by the German and Austrian "historians" like Prince Otto who wanted to glorify himself as the King of the newly formed State.A question for you Dimitri,Why Demosthenes said "not only no Greek, nor related to the Greeks, but not even a barbarian from any place that can be named with honors, but a [...]

Read the full comment pestilent knave from Macedonia,whence it was never yet possible to buy a decent slave."Why Alexander asked Philotas if he will speak his mother tonque Macedonian or other?Lets argue on history of ancient people and todays people,who you are and who we are.We know very well,Greece has falsified history,and I might add,they did an eccelent job of it,and for that Greece is the best.In other words,No one can beat Greece in fabricating history.From the looks of it Greece pays no attebtion to the ancient historians like Demosthenes,but when it comes to history you like to be other than what you are.

Peco what you mean I Greek. I makedonas from Florina and Makedones same other Ellines. I no ask you same Hrvatski, Srtbski. I know Peco you Skopianos and this mean different from Yugoslavi. Ta skopia also havin many Alvani, Tourki, Bulgari so you same likin greece havin many people. Peco you know from skopia comin Alvani before in archaia time no skopia people livin in skopia only alvani. Same here in florina only Makedones livin here speakin Dorika likin Spartiates. Makedonia small in archaia time only after o Megas Alexandros my people havin more meros. But Makedonia no go sta [...]

Read the full comment skopia. Skopia people from archaia time is alvani people likin tiday many Alvani sta skopia 66% Alvani, 23% skopiani, other is Tourki, bulgari, ke Makedones. Before 1913 many Makedones people livin in Monastiri in skopia but today no many Makedones in Monastiri only skopiani, Alvani and Bulgari. My sister Dora livin Monastiri havin 7 children. She havin kafenio and many Makedones go there every holiday. Sometime skopiani comin not but no much, skopiani likin go for bureki Makedones likin arni eatin. My filo Zoran speakin he know from different kousinna if skopiani, Bulgari, or Makedones. Skopiani likin eatin Piggy-Praski and Tourkis bureki, Bulgari likin eatin Rizzi and paprika ke i Makedones likin eatin arni psito me patates. Zoran is right when I in ochrida the Bulgari people likin much rizzi eatin but skopiani eatin vey much Piggy-Praski this funny no. Ande Peco yiasou apo ti Florina ke tous Makedones speakin kakosi sta skopia people.

Aries and Dimitri,on March 25th,2010 the Greek armywere insulting the Macedonians and Albanians in a Athens parade.I wonder what your President Papulias has to say,because he himself is of an Albanian disscent.President Papulias,what are you going to do?.President Sulaiman-Papulias,the ancient Greeks and Albanians are turning in their graves.Greeces democracy claim is non existant.It is a fabricated nation.Not only you downgradet your own people,but all civilized mankind.Sooner than later, Macedonia will withdraw from your demands on the name change,because you are not civilized,not trustworthy on agreements.

Dimitri,just in case you are "Greek",but I think you are more Bulgarian than anything else.Did you know that the language "Greeks" are speaking today is not Hellenic,or ancient Hellenic?. Here is an example;Ipos-horse,Oikos-house,Oinos-wine,hyga-water,Ega-goat,Artos-bread,Ris-nose,Mys-mouse, do these words are in the Greek vocabulary?. My friend these are the ancient Hellenic words that todays Greeks have non whatsoever resemblance.Greece is made-up of a mixture of people that have no connection to ancient Hellens. Greece adopted the name through the western historians to glorify themselves.Remember who wrote the Greek history,it was not a Greek,but it was an Austrian,Ottos friend.Even with the re-written Greek [...]

Read the full comment language they still use Turkish words,so do the Macedonians,Bulgarians and others in the Balkans.Let me point one thing,the Macedonian language is older than the Greek and Bulgarian,because the Macedonian has been spoken at home,not through school or being re-written like the Greek was.The Bulgarians learned the Macedonian language and not the other way around.The Bulgarian language was Mongolian.Therefore it brings us to the question of,why are we negosiating our name with Greece.Our name,language and church are centuries older than our neighbors,it is a fact! Have a nice day Dimitri!

Odeysseus has a good point - we should all go to the Irridentists much more regularly for our oral hygiene. (Ordinary dentists just deal with cavities and extractions - Irridentists also carry out Oral Irrigation too. Vital for today's world.

This comment has been removed by the moderator because it contained foul, abusive or discriminating language

Peco maybe you like be Makedonas but you still Bulgarian people. You not know real historia only Yugoslavi propaganda. In Makedonia all my friend Bulgaria speak good, but people like you speak bad Peco. Why you make problem with Makedones. You like be Makedonas but you speaking Yugoslavika not same like Makedonika. In skopia all Yugoslavi speaking Bulgarian like my friends in Florina, Kastoria, Edessa, Meliti. Why you thinking you are my people you not speaking true of real historia. Makedonia always be Ellines and Yugoslavi always be Bulgarians

My dear The Odysseus BC, you seam to me you are lost in this world and still in mythical Hellas. The discoveries at Vergina are purely Macedonian,they do not belong to the Greeks.The country called Greece was formed in 1834. Before this date there was no Greece. Here is a short statement,"France and Germany called Greece "our spoiled child", and rightfully so, it was France and Germany who gave birth to the country,but things changed somewhat after Bucharest. Athens in order to protect its bizarre myth for purity decided to block Macedonia from NATO, thus making fool out of the [...]

Read the full comment USA and their geopolitical plans.Athens did not possess the wits to realize their move that made NATO and EU extremely weak in the eyes of the Chinese and Russians.Greeces veto againts Macedonia in Bucharest for the entry to NATO made a fool of all its membership.Greeces stance againts Macedonia is very clear and that is;to preserve its absurd claim of purity and to hold onto the Macedonian history. Your historical analogy is a political ploy of Greece. Macedonia is a thorne for Greek politicians,and without the Macedonian question,greeces politicians cannot be elected and this is why Greece made the question on Macedonias name a football field. Greek politicians made this sink hole for themselves. May I remind you that in 1925 the high ranking Greek representative at the League of Nations argued with the Bulgarian and Serbian representatives on the Macedonian identity and that the Macedonian language was different than the Bulgarian and Serbian. At this meetting,the Greek reoresentative Dendramis brought maps,linguists to prove his point,and this produced the Abecedar for the Macedonian school children. Today the indigenouse Macedonians introduced the Greek-Macedonian dictionary in Athens,only to be attacked by the Neo-Nazis of Greece.The Greek government condoned their action,same as the Greek courts condoned the LAOS actions againts the Jews in Greece. Why are you claim the Hellenic "democracy" when you are still in mythical times? You can bang your heads as much as you like to,present and ancient Macedonians are not Greek by any means or connection,same as you have no connection to ancient Hellens. You are a product of a mixture of slavs, Albanians, Vlahs,Roma, Turks and others,so dont tell me you are 99.9% pure.Remember, these are the Balkans.Wake-up and smell the morning coffee!

This comment has been removed by the moderator because it contained foul, abusive or discriminating language

This comment has been removed by the moderator because it contained foul, abusive or discriminating language

This comment has been removed by the moderator because it contained off-topic content

This comment has been removed by the moderator because it contained off-topic content

This comment has been removed by the moderator because it contained off-topic content

This comment has been removed by the moderator because it contained off-topic content

to Odesseus the Unready - see my comment on the other Macedonia posting on this site. No point in repeating it (said he to mollify our patient Moderators !)

This comment has been removed by the moderator because it contained off-topic content

er...how about France "La Bretagne" and the UK "La Grande Bretagne". Such irredentism !(curiously, not a word ever used in Western Europe, unless it refers to the tandarts / dentist !)

Following your analogy, when do we expect war to break out between France and UK over the Shared Name ?

Or do both countries regard the whole thing as a load of bollock-breaking rubbish, just as the Greece/Macedonia affair is ?

MACEDONIA FAQ

(This is a FAQ about the Greek main positions.)

In 1994, Greece imposed an embargo on products from FYROM (except for food, medicine and humanitarian assistance), on claims that the adoption of a Greek name ("Macedonia") for the country, a Greek symbol (the Vergina Sun/Star) for its flag and certain articles in its constitution, hide irredentist designs against Greece. For the embargo to end, the flag, certain articles in its constitution, and the hostile propaganda have to be changed ("small package"), while the name can be decided in later negotiations. [...]

Read the full comment

1) Why does Greece dictate to FYROM its name, symbols and constitution?

Greece does not dictate to FYROM what name or flag to adopt, just to choose any of the million possibilities that are not Greek or offensive to Greeks. Countries have to choose their national symbols based on International norms. (i.e. Can Syria employ the Nazi cross as their flag, if they choose so? Can Cuba change its name to Florida, employ the statue of Liberty as its flag and start propaganda that the Florida state in the USA belongs to Cuba, by virtue of so many Cubans living there?)

Naming a country after a neighboring region is a de facto irredentist strategy aimed at destabilizing the region, and hoping that the country, will absorb the neighboring region.

2) Why does Greece object to the use of the `Vergina Sun' on the FYROM flag?

The Vergina Sun, the emblem of Philip's dynasty, symbolizes the birth of our nation. It was the first time (4th century BCE) that the Greek mainland (city-states and kingdoms) with the same language, culture, and religion were united against the enemies of Asia in one league. At the same time the fractured Greek world grew conscious of its unity. And, in this sense, we have never been apart since then. The `Sun' was excavated in Greece in 1978, and it is sacred to us.

3) Why did Greece impose the embargo?

After talking with the FYROMian Government fruitlessly for 2 years and going nowhere, then and only then did the Greek state implement the partial embargo as last resort to advance the issue.

4) Why do you claim exclusive rights to the symbols of the ancient Macedonians?

We have linguistic, cultural, genealogical, and geographic ties to the ancient Greeks and Macedons. They (FYROM) are mostly Slavs who descended after 600 CE in the region, and have no ties whatsoever (ancient Makedonia was within modern Greece since its inception).

Even after the great expansion by Philip the II and Alexander the Great in the 400s BCE, perhaps even less than 10% of the FYROMian land was part of the `enlarged kingdom'. The reader should realize that the punitive expeditions of the Macedonians in the north, as well as their imperial acquisitions in the Balkans and Asia did not necessarily produce a `wider concept of Macedonia' - a country with boarders extending to India. That would be most simplistic! Pella, the capital of the ancient Makedones, is well within modern Greek borders.

5) What proof do you have that the ancient Macedonians were Greek?

The vast majority of major historians believe that the ancient Macedonians were Greek. Those who still remain skeptical, say that they need more evidence before proclaiming the ancient Macedonians as Greek. But no one says that ancient Macedonians were not Greek.

Recent excavations close to their ancient capital, Aigai, including the discovery of the `tomb of Philip the II', reinforce the Greek identity of the ancient Macedonians categorically.

In any case, all historians admit that by Roman times the ancient Macedonians were fully homogenized with the rest of Greeks, and that Macedonia stopped existing as a separate socio-cultural entity some 600 years before any contact with the first Slavs in the Balkans.

6) How can appropriating Greece's history, be irredentist?

History is the means for laying claims on foreign lands. The Macedonian argument was promoted by the 3rd Commintern (USSR) and their allies in the region just prior to WWII, to create an independent greater Macedonia for social experimentation. Bulgarians have said that Alexander the Great was a Bulgarian while occupying Macedonia (Greek) on behalf of the Germans in WWII.

Tito sent 5,000 Yugoslavs and "Slav-Macedonians" to Greece after WWII to work with their allies in the region to annex Makedonia (Greek) while we were too busy fighting a civil war. These were the same people that now live in FYROM. 3 times in the recent past the same propaganda has been used as justification by different interests (Commintern, Bulgaria, (S)NOF-Yugoslavia) to invade (or try to) Greece. Even today, just when the name and flag were been adopted in independent FYROM, VMRO and Gligorof were talking about reclaiming "their" lands in Greece and Bulgaria.

7) Who populated the lands of modern FYROM in the past?

The ancient people inhabiting the area around Skopje, at the time of the ancient Macedonians, were the Dardanians, and their land was called Dardania. Throughout their modern history, the region now occupied by FYROM was populated mostly by Bulgarians.

The creation of "Macedonia" (FYROM, SROM) was artificial. Ex-Yugoslavs will attest to that. FYROM is comprised of Albanians, Serbs, and Bulgarians and their language is a Bulgarian dialect with a few Serbo-croatian words. Bulgarians will attest to that and understand/speak "Macedonian".

8) What about their claim of a large minority in Greece?

After usurping the name and the flag, surprise! They start claiming that Greeks in Macedonia (Greek) are a FYROM minority. After all we all identify as Macedonians. Thus, we must be the same...

Some people in the Net claim 1 mill minority in Macedonia (Greek). The population of Macedonia (Greek) is 2 mill. I am a Macedonian (Greek) same with other Greeks on this group. We don't want anything to have with FYROM. We are Greek. Finally the recent Euro-Elections revealed only with their cause (therefore propably a FYROM minority) 10,000! Not fantasies of 1 million!

9) Why doesn't the Greek government recognize the "Macedonian" minority?

Greek parents have been sending their children to Macedonian schools for years, expecting them to learn Greek, not Bulgarian. Macedonian people (Greeks) are already a majority in Greece, with Macedonian churches, schools and cultural centers teaching Greek and regional dances and songs.

The Greek government can neither recognize a minority with the same name, as the majority, nor build non-Greek schools and churches with the same name. Greek courts have offered to open cultural centers for their minority, under a different name (than Macedonian). They have refused.

As long as they use the term "Macedonian" to describe their nationality, their minorities in Greece and Bulgaria cannot be recognized.

10) What are Greece's objections with FYROM's constitution?

There are two points of concern:

In their preamble, they define their FYROM state as a departure from the " ...historic decisions of the Anti-Fascist Assembly of the People's Liberation of Macedonia (ASNOM)... ". The problem is that ASNOM had called for the "Macedonians" in Bulgaria and other countries to unite under Tito's rule.

Their language in article 49 is also problematic (too extensive to go into here).

At Greece's request they have added 2 amendements stating that they have no claims on neighbouring countries. Still, that is in contradiction with their preample, and it is to their benefit to rewrite those articles to avoid contradictions and vagueries in their Constitution.

11) Does Greece have any territorial or other claims on FYROM?

In 1993, Serbia's President Milocevic, invited Greece to invade FYROM. Greece declined it.

FYROM is surrounded by claims of Greater Albania, Greater Bulgaria and Greater Serbia. Greece is the only one not interested in FYROM.

It is a poor, barren place with no Hellenic ties or history. Greece has the beach-front property (Aegean), and the economy differential between the two countries would only create problems for the richer one (Greece).

12) Is Greece really afraid of FYROM?

Presently FYROM is too weak to threaten Greece militarily or otherwise. However, considering that:

a) A general draft can raise an army of 700,000 in FYROM;

b) Greece has had to fight several times against similar claims in this century to secure and defend its northern region (Macedonia);

c) the Balkans are currently in a map-changing mode;

d) shifting alliances may change the balance of power in the near future;

The Greek state feels that the "inexplicable" adoption of an irredentist name and flag by FYROM are hostile and provocative acts designed to establish future claims on Greek Macedonia.

These are the main points and we can support them with facts and evidence.

The Academy of Athens ' public position on the Macedonian issue.

The Academy of Athens, conscious of its scholarly mission, considers that a viable solution to the problem of the name of FYROM is possible only on the basis of an accurate evaluation of the facts. The Academy, therefore, is making public its own well-documented views. It also considers it a felicitous circumstance that scientific truth is consistent with reality and ensures the stability and peacefulness of a region that has suffered grievously both in the remote and in the recent past.

[...]

Read the full comment 1. Today, Macedonia forms a geographic zone whose borders extend to more than one of the states of Southeastern Europe. A specific region of modern Greece bears the ancient Greek name "Macedonia". One of the federal states that constituted the former Republic of Yugoslavia functioned under the name "Socialist Republic of Macedonia" (SRM). However, for many centuries in Antiquity, the name Macedonia designated an area about 90% of which is coincident with the modern Greek region of Macedonia. If this name were given to an independent state, without further specification that would clearly reflect these geographic and historical realities, it would entail the danger that the state in question might claim, and even claim exclusively, the use of the term "Macedonia" or its derivatives to describe its history, civilization, everyday political and social life, etc.

2. Specifically, the ancient Macedonian state of Philip and Alexander the Great extended in the north to the lands of the modern Greek Macedonia, as well as a few kilometers into both the modern FYROM and Bulgaria. Every kind of historical source as well as archaeological finds proves that at the time the ancient Macedonians included their state among the other Greek lands. The first Slavic peoples which, obviously, had no relation whatsoever with the previous inhabitants of the region, entered the Balkans ten centuries later, in the seventh century A.D. Their presence in the area from that point on contributed to the gradual formation of various Slavic ethnicities. During the creation and the first development of the Slavic states of the area in the 19th century (Serbia, Montenegro, Bulgaria), there was no reference to a "Macedonian" nation. It is telling that even in the aftermath of the First World War, neither the representatives of the Balkan states, nor those-Woodrow Wilson being primary among them - who constructed the peace, men who, precisely, held the vision of an international community consisting of nation-states, ever hinted at a "Macedonian" nation. The effort to establish the existence of such a nation dates to the time of Marshal Tito, when he was engaged in creating the new federal republic of Yugoslavia in the aftermath of the Second World War. Indeed, the success of the daring endeavor undertaken since that time, that is, the transformation of the ethnicity of the Slav inhabitants of that particular geographic area, would have been impossible without the propaganda disseminated for almost half a century by a totalitarian regime.

3. The geographic unit of Macedonia is a reality that is independent of any ethnological, political, or administrative division in the Southern Balkans. During the centuries-long Ottoman rule, the geographic area of "Macedonia" included the vilayets of Thessalonike and Monastir, and part of the vilayet of Kossovo to which belonged the sanjak of Skopje. The extension of the geographic borders of "historic" Macedonia towards the north is connected to the mapping of the region by the first European cartographers, after the Renaissance. These maps were composed on the basis of views that had prevailed in Roman times. However, neither then nor in modern times until the Second World War was there an ethnic content to the characterization of the inhabitants as Macedonian. The fact that, in the second half of the 19th century, Serbs and Bulgarians raised claims upon the lands that were inhabited by a majority of Slavic people is doubtless connected to the ethnic make-up of these specific geographic areas. By the same token, it is obvious that the same principle is also applicable to the larger areas of southern Macedonia that are inhabited by Greeks.

4. The lessons one can draw from the authoritative analysis of the historical past are congruent with the necessity to achieve a solution that promotes peace and stability in the region. The artificial creation of one single "Macedonia" would necessarily be linked to the revival of outdated expansionist designs. To the contrary, scholarly analysis suggests the adoption of a compound name with a geographic content, and with respect for the distinction between ancient Macedonia and the state of FYROM. That would serve both the truth and the present-day needs of the geographic region and of the larger area surrounding it. The profound interest of the Greeks in the matter does not indicate any desire to contest the rights of their northern neighbors, even those rights that were but recently acquired. The position of the government and of the vast majority of the political forces in Greece is clear on this issue. The Greek interest does indicate the concern of public opinion in the face of intransigent provocations on the part of Skopje that tend-as is evident even in the school textbooks-not only to appropriate but even to monopolise the history, the cultural achievements, the symbols--including the ancient ones--, the monuments, and the personalities that were active in the Macedonian area in the past. It is self-evident that the expression of good will on the part of any Greek government is not sufficient to overcome the fact or the effects of nationalist excesses similar to those that were artfully cultivated during the post-war period.


The findings mentioned above argue for a solution to the problem that should not be unilateral. Greece holds firmly a position that leads to the consolidation of peaceful coexistence and cooperation among the peoples of the southern Balkans. On the contrary, the option to protract the impasse surrounding the name of FYROM not only nourishes designs that continue to be expansionist, but also perpetuates or even exacerbates the more general instability on a broader or narrower regional scale. Thus, privileging the current geographic realities, although it does not always satisfy the demands of history, especially the history of Antiquity, does nevertheless provide the basis for an honorable, final, and henceforth uncontested solution of the problem.

@ Otan teliossi o polemos
( When the war ends }

It looks like you don't know
a great deal about Official Greek Policy. The Greeks were one of the first to push for Turkeys entry into the EU, and BOTH major governing parties ND and PASOK, support this policy!

We much prefer to have them inside Europe than outside stirring up trouble.
We understand the concept "Keep your friends close, but your 'enemies' closer"!

It's others in the EU that [...]

Read the full comment will bar Turkey from entry!

" Turkish Army is four times the size of the Greek army "
When have Greeks ever counted numbers in battle ?
To a Greek soldier. Numbers meen nothing !

No fly zone over the Greek islands.
Yes there have been a number of Turkish F 16"s shot down over Greek airspace.

Over the years, Greek F-16s, F-18 SH, A-711 have often been involved in fights with Turkish Aircraft over the much disputed parts of the Aegean Sea. F-16s are scrambled constantly to intercept Turkish intruders and vice-versa. A lot of rumors exist involving aircraft being shot down on both sides of the borders.

" Turks just "hate" Yunanistan - just ask any Turk (and don't ask me what Yunanistan is - you should know their word for 'Greece'!)"

I have two Turkish families who are very close friends.
Both families were invited to my daughters wedding. As my family is always a guest in their house.
Yunan (Greek).
From what i have heard from relatives in Greece. Turks and Greeks get along fine on both sides of the border. They leave the politics to the politicians.

As their have been jets shot down on both sides no war has erupted.
It's all controlled by big brother USA.

Greece's famous " Navy seals "
are not only water combatants.
They are one of the finest Greek Hoplites that are trained in jungle and desert warfare.
As you state.
" last time I looked at a map the country was entirely land-locked. "
Well apart from Lake Ohrid .
Lets just say Greece invaded FYROMacedonia the invasion will be delivered by air strikes. the war will be over very quickly.
Like i have said before.
" Athens has stated to Skopje that it has no interest in territorial claim. It's the Name that is in dispute . "
A war between Greece and FYROMacedonia will never happen.


A war between Greece and Turkey ?
Well first of all, its never going to happen! Greece is part of the EU and if Greece goes to war, other countries will follow. Also, if both countries go to war, it will set both countries back. Turkey and Greece would be in trouble if that happens. Secondly, On paper, Turkey would would most likely win because of the population gap, however, don't forget, out of the 70 million population, about 30 or so are kurds, and i hear that the Turks and kurds are not the best of friends. Thirdly , Military, Turkey by far has a larger army but Greece has one of the best air force in the Balkan area and by far the best Navy. I don't think Turkey is stronger in that department. Fourthly, Greece economically, is better off than Turkey,( Well not at the present ) Although in recent years, turkey is improving there economy, Turkey still lags behind Greece in many aspects such as economy, reale-estate, tourism, and other things as well. I know Turkey wants to be part of the EU, but Greece and a few other countries in Europe are against that Turkey entering the EU. Turkey has issues to confront first before being considered in the EU. like giving back CYPRUS to the Cyprian's. Fifth, Weaponry , both countries spend billions of dollars in missile defense, fighters, etc
I know for a fact, that the Greek Airforce pilots are very well trained. My cousin in Athens is a fighter pilot as he has been involved in dog fights with Turkish pilots over the Aegean.



who's better:

Soldiers on ground: Turkey wins
Missles and weaponry: TIE
Navy: Greece wins
Airforce: Greece wins
Advanced Technology: Greece is slightly favored, although Greece purchases a lot of weaponry from foreign countries
Economically Greece Wins
Backup: Greece wins-> more countries will support Greece then would Turkey

Dont forget everybody, Turks don't hate the world like some other countries do, they have the European culture in them and a lot do resemble Greeks in a way, the real Greeks are fair skin and blue or hazel eyes, just like Alexander was. Greece was occupied by Turkey for 400 years and who knows, i bet some Greeks today living in Greece , probably have a little Turkish blood in us. Greece Ruled all of Asia and half of Italy in ancient times, they lost so much land and suffered in the course of 2000 years.


Lets put it this way, Both Athens and Istanbul will be destroyed of they both go to war.
Everybody thought that U.S will suffer a low casualty rate against the war in Iraq, well were kinda wrong, u think?

IN WAR NOBODY WINS!

As Von Clausewitz said: "War is diplomacy continued by other means.."

Oddy, old man, you are being a bit over-sanguine about Turkey and its habit of over-flying Greek islands when it feels like a bit of provocation. Also the Turkish Army is four times the size of the Greek one, and is battle-hardened in Iraq and Kurdistan, which the Greek army isn't. Also the Turks just "hate" Yunanistan - just ask any Turk (and don't ask me what Yunanistan is - you should know their word for 'Greece'!)

Apart from that, Turkey [...]

Read the full comment wants the oil reserves under the Aegean continental shelf, in which the Greek islands rather inconveniently sit.

Which is why Istanbul is watching the current stand-off in the South Atlantic so closely, as Argentina claims the continental shelf there in the same way as Turkey would like to do in the Aegean.

All of which makes the Macedonian issue somehow a bit irrelevant in geo-global politics. It would be a bit difficult to assault it with Greece's famous "seals", though, as the last time I looked at a map the country was entirely land-locked.

Epam
<<<USA has been in a economical crisis since the 90's.
Why do you think they are still at war ? Because war is boosting the US economy. >>>

I think Odysseus has a very strong point here military idustry is very capital intensive.

This comment has been removed by the moderator because it contained off-topic content

This comment has been removed by the moderator because it contained off-topic content

Due to Greece been in this economic crisis does not affect its military power to defend its people, land , air and sea if invaded.

Greece will fight !
Weather others follow or not !

Yes a 2 day battle is estimated by Military Generals And Fyrom will fall.
The economic crisis has no affect on Greece military power and capabilities to defend its self.

Greece has no interest in territorial claim on Fyrom.
As Athens has stated to Skopje.
[...]

Read the full comment It is Skopje who by identifying its self as Macedonian, is now claiming territory of Northen Greek cities including Thessaloniki.

This comment has been removed by the moderator because it contained foul, abusive or discriminating language

Er...silly question....if Greece is in the worst financial crisis since 1832, with EU auditors crawling all over Athens, and the population happily on strike Because That's What Greeks Do In A Crisis ,

.....how is Greece able to mount a successful two-day invasion of Macedonia at the same time ?

Or have I missed something, like flying pigs / les cochons volants ?

Or maybe Zeus comes down from Olympus and strikes all the Macedonians (and the EU auditors) dead ?

Or maybe Alexander [...]

Read the full comment the Great awakes from the dead along with his army, and slaughters everyone in sight in the way he used to do ?

Alternatively, Macedonia calls in a few favours from the Serbs (who still have quite a capable military capacity, and invades Greece instead ? A Greece riven by strikes and civil disorder is in hardly any position to resists.

The same of course - mutatis mutandis - applies to the Turks.

It is a Chinese curse to "live in interesting times". Greece is now doing so.

This comment has been removed by the moderator because it contained off-topic content

This comment has been removed by the moderator because it contained off-topic content

Peter ,

You still haven't answered my simple question put to you several posts ago.

Well i will give you the question again...
The history books that have been written on Ancient Greece that I'm shore you have read, that sit on the shelves in all major Universities around the world, state that Ancient Macedonia and Alexander The Great is Greek .
Do you believe the history books written are telling the truth or it is all untrue, fabrication, forgery and lies ?

Come [...]

Read the full comment on Peter it's a very simple question.

This comment has been removed by the moderator because it contained off-topic content

Scipio Africanus,take a look about the stone on the article "Greece Macedonia in London talks.

The Odysseus BC,my friend looks like you have no history knowledge. Part of Macedonia was given to Greece by the Big Powers in 1913.It is no use to say anything more.But, I will make one comment.Greece will accept "Northern Macedonia" will Greece accept "Southerne Macedonia?"Have a good day!

to namesake - if you are indeed a native-speaker of English, your education was more than a bit defective (or defecatory, as Google spellcheck helpfully puts it! Scheisse....)

Papandreou himself made a similar point on TV recently (and if anybody speaks really good English, it is him.)

As Any Fule Kno, the adjective "economical" means being personally careful with your money, whereas the adjective "economic" means 'relating to the economy'.

Es ist sehr schlicht - c'est assez facile pour que la moindre des intelligences puisse le comprendre ! [...]

Read the full comment

So simple, that even an idiot can understand it. Katalabaneis ?

@OdysseusBc

I do agree with your comment.
War will erupt again in the Balkans.
The Slavic name of Macedonia will no longer exist.
The name Macedonia will be returned to the true owners , Greece.
FYROM belongs to Albania.

Its just a matter of time.

This comment has been removed by the moderator because it contained off-topic content

This comment has been removed by the moderator because it contained foul, abusive or discriminating language

David - no native-speaker of English would ever say "economical crisis", as you have just done.

What is your real native language ? Greek or Albanian ?

Menduh Thaci calls for War against Macedonia

Tuesday, 09 February 2010

Macedonia's public prosecution office is quiet at the latest threats from DPA's leader Menduh Thaci, who this evening via TV Sitel called Albanians to wage war against Macedonia!

Thaci, who is already barred from traveling to the EU and the US, continues to create problems after his political party was halved in the last elections. Ever since taking the reign of the DPA, the party has gotten smaller and the frequent election defeats has brought [...]

Read the full comment in radicalization among their members.

The Macedonian public prosection, continues to ignore Thaci's public threats. "You will obey the Albanians and you will ask what else needs to be done," proclaimed Thaci for TV Sitel.

As if waking from a bad dream Thaci continued his rant claiming there would be a certain war, and the Macedonians will lose.

On a recent visit to Tirana, which seems to be the only place Thaci is allowed to visit, even the Albanian intellectuals scolded him in a an interview, calling him a 'destabilizer' and a 'fundamentalist'.

If you do not want my highly educated opinion then that is fine. After getting bitten by a scorpion in the Volos airport I have more than gotten my revenge on you pathetic greeks! Indeed, I hope Greece loses its battle with Macedonia and its economical crisis!

Pam
THANKS!!! over and out.

still ranting on David? boy do you ever like pretending to be a woman!

This comment has been removed by the moderator because it contained off-topic content

david please seek out help, you really do need it!

Pam
is it "J0URNAL LE NORD"
If it is not would appreciate the link on either channel

Scipio - read on-line the French newspaper "le Journal du Nord" (circulates around Pas de Calais / Lille) and you'll get the same macabre joke en francais.

An even more macabre version is that "les evenements" have launched a new dish in upmarket Michelin-starred restaurants in Lille and the environs of Calais, called something like:

"Assiette de fruits de mer comme la calaisienne-sangatte ( matiere grasse tout-a-fait exclue)"

Bon appetit (if you can gulp it down) !

Pam
At least Feeding the gulls is better than nothing1!!!
Macabre joke i must say old chap

yup, the writing style of the previous post proves that pam is david who has also pretended to be such characters as Koinos nous, Epamomindas, and etc.

do get a life david

That is because "Pam" is David...who gives himself away every time his character shows obsession with greece

and sorry david/pam but political refugees fleeing to brussels is a first, even in the balkans!

Er - Scipio - you've got this one wrong, I fear, about "Greek" refugees.

Because of misguided EU rules about first-port-of-call of incoming refugees (i.e. the first EU country they come to has to accept them and give them its residence status), there is a large number of Afghan and Somali refugees with "Greek" residence status 'queueing' at Sangatte in Calais trying to get into the UK.

"Queueing" is a euphemism (a convenient Greek word), as they are actually clambering underneath trucks and rail wagons to try to emain unobserved. Sometimes successfully, [...]

Read the full comment sometimes not....the local seagulls are growing fat, anyway (work it out....)

Not the best of situations, but Greece cannot say "Not My Problem", as it has done with the Euro so far.....

Pam my lass
You seem obsessed about Greece how come sweetie !!!!
the finacial issues are definitely off topic
bring in Peter now and the Stefov'
s crap!

Er...Greece ? (Also Romania...but maybe they're Roma, so that doesn't count.)

Meanwhile, how IS Greece going to get out of its current economic EuroMess ?

yeah seriously, what European country has political refugees fleeing to Brussels? This is a serious situation and proof that Europe needs to rethink its attitude on FYROM

oh come on, political refugees? That pretty much sums up the communistic and fanatical nature that still prevails in Skopje and yet you "northern europeans" turn a blind eye to but be advise it will come back to bite you in the behind

Well, at least the Macedonian refugees could get to Brussels ! The EU investigatory delegation can't get to Athens today because there's a massive General Strike by Greek public-sector workers, including all the aiports and rail stations.

Strikes me that there is currently much wrong with the region, and it's not confined to Macedonia !

"Belgium will refer to the Macedonian authorities if the flow of political fugitives from Macedonia does not stop, reads the Macedonian newspaper Dnevnik.
Over the last couple of days some 129 Macedonian citizens arrived in Brussels to seek political refuge. The number of such cases since the start of the year has reached 347.
"Such figures are unprecedented in the history of Macedonian immigration. Local authorities will refer to the Macedonian Embassy in Brussels for an explanation to this phenomenon," said the spokesperson of the Bureau for Foreign Citizens in Brussels, adding that this may eventually [...]

Read the full comment cause revision of the liberalized visa regime for Macedonia.
"This is unprecedented. The waiting room of the Bureau is packed on Monday morning - whole families with small children. On Tuesday and Wednesday the number is smaller. On Monday the same thing happens again," the representative of the Foreign Citizens Bureau said. In her words, obviously it was all related to organized journeys that started every Saturday night from Macedonia."

Short history of Macedonia (FYROM)

The historical Greek state of Macedonia, famous for the king Alexander the Great, was situated in the areas of today’s Greece, Bulgaria between 4th and 2th century BC. It was conquered by the Romans, and became part of the Eastern Roman Empire in the 4th century AC. Slav tribes settled in Macedonia in the 7th century AC, and the region was conquered by Bulgaria in the 9th century, and later switched hands between Bulgaria, Serbia and the Byzantine Empire. Turkish Ottoman Empire conquered the area in 1389 and ruled it until [...]

Read the full comment the First Balkan War in 1912.


The current Republic of Macedonia became a region of Serbia in 1912, and was again occupied by Bulgaria in the Second World War. It became an autonomous republic within Yugoslavia in 1943. Republic of Macedonia declared itself independent from Yugoslavia in January 1992, and unlike in the other newly independent countries in the region, the split was peaceful. United Nations troops were sent to Macedonia to monitor the border with Yugoslavia. Greece objected the new state's use of the name Macedonia, which delayed international recognition of the country as "the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia (FYROM)". In 2001, there was a violent unrest between the Macedonian government and ethnic Albanian rebels in the north and west of the country, ending with the intervention of a NATO monitoring forces.

A independence, Macedonia was the least developed of the Yugoslavian republics, and slow economic growth and unemployment are still big problems in the country.

Like i have stated on my previous post....
OK say this is settled.
You have your name Macedonia.
You think you people will have a future of PEACE and good relations with Greece , Albania , Serbia, Bulgaria ?
There will most certainly be more unrest.
People of FYROM.
In your future have no fear of Greece. As Athens has stated it has no interest in territorial claim on FYROM.
Albania will be your catastrophe!
Skopje will be asking Athens for military help !
Help that Athens will reject !
Slavic Macedonia will fall !

" That will be a victory not just for Athens , but for GREECE ! "

FYROM will be under Albanian control.
Unfortunatly it wont end there !
Serbia and Bulgaria will then fight for it's land.

In the near future WAR will come upon the Balkans again.
Macedonia will be known again as ONLY Greek . As it always has been known, from the Ancient world to our present world.


Just remember these words that i have written as i can see in the near future a horrific catastrophe again in the Balkans !



" This battle is over,
but the REAL WAR is
is just about to BEGIN !

Peter
still not answering my Question don't worry you will nver find it
because your stone of "Ancient Bactria" written in "Ancient Makendonski" simply does not exist
The revisionist crap of Stefov
is all that you have!!!
dober den.

Peter, as you state in your previous post....

"The Republic of Macedonia has been
around for thousands of years, while you greeks are artificial creation of the great powers. Why cant you accept this truth? Just open a book and learn Macedonian history!"

I agree with you as you state ,
"The Republic of Macedonia has been around for thousands of years."

They shortly have !

" Just open a book and learn Macedonian History ?"

[...]

Read the full comment I certainly have , so have many of other millions of people around the world studying Ancient Greek history .
Cant accept the TRUTH !

What the hell DRUGS you on Peter ?

This was a question i asked you to "please " answer best you can and to the point, which you refused on numerous occasions and you can't possibly give a TRUE answer!
The question Peter again is ...

The history books that have been written on Ancient Greece that I'm shore you have read, that sit on the shelves in all major Universities around the world, state that Ancient Macedonia and Alexander The Great is Greek .
Do you believe the history books written are telling the truth or it is all untrue, fabrication, forgery and lies ?

Peter you have revealed to all on this site of your fraudulent activities. As you are no Macedonian but a wannabe ancient Greek you are allowed to betray your people as far as that it does not infringe on your compatriot the arch liar, and cheat Stefov. You can only live a ly so long Peter although it seems you have been living it all your life or at least the last 20 years when the diaspora decided to look into the ancient past for new identities unashamably stealing our neighbours' history. Your anti-Slavicist activities will only get you so [...]

Read the full comment far. That is why in Macedonia the diaspora are constantly mistrusted for their betrayal of our Slavic heritage.
Macedonia will not accept you as you are Peter so please don't call yourself a Macedonian as it implies you are one of us which you are actually not. You are a wannabe Macedonian who needs ancient Greek history to validate your antiquisationist views. Your a hybrid a bit of that and a bit of us.
Macedonia 4 the REAL Macedonians
Bulgarians, Greeks, Vlachs, Roma, etc.

Peter,
The only country who is involved in propaganda , provocation , identity theft are the people of FYROM !
You claim Bulgarians and Albanians stealing Macedonian heritage.
Are they ?
In Macedonia ?
Lets get something straight !
The Macedonia that i have always known and has always existed is in GREECE !
The Macedonia that you people are trying to form is over the border in Yugoslavia.
Thats where you have a big problem and the problem will always BE.
[...]

Read the full comment As the name MACEDONIA is the WRONG NAME for your people !
You will ALWAYS have the opposition of the Greeks, Albanians , Serbs and Bulgarians and conflict with these countries.

In the History of this planet, FYROM is the only country so far to claim territory and establish a name of country with out WAR !
To use politicians in meetings to settle this JOKE of a conflict !

I'll tell you something MR Peter,
so far your all very lucky you haven't been bombed out of extinction !

WHY did Serbia , Croatia , Bosnia have to lose so many life go to WAR in order to establish a country?
So all you people of FYROM are SMARTER ?
To have your OWN Identity and country with out Blood Shed ?

What, makes you so BETTER and DIFFERENT than all the other countries that had to fight for their Territory Freedom and rights?

FYROM can thank Greece for not instigating War upon you so far !
The people of FYROM have turned the Balkans upside down again and created a hostile , Dangerous situation in the region.

People in Skopje take the Greek Flag , remove the orthodox cross off it and in place put the Nazi swastika. Then broadcast it on U Tube , CNN and all international News.
You should all be ashamed on your selves !
Greece will NEVER forgive you !

Most countries in Europe voted against Greece in the FYROM name issue.
Do you know why ?
It is not that Russia , Serbia and others hate and are against Greece.
It is for political reasons !
They voted against because they want conflict between Greece and FYROM !
If they all voted FOR Greece then FYROM would have to settle with another name and it will be all over .

Like i mentioned above with these countries that had to spill blood for their Freedom and identity !
Do you relay think they all want Greece and FYROM to settle all this amicably ?
You have to be joking and a REAL MORON to believe such a thing !

OK say this is settled.
You have your name Macedonia.
You think you people will have a future of PEACE and good relations with Greece , Albania , Serbia, Bulgaria ?

" This battle is over,
but the REAL WAR is
is just about to BEGIN !

Sasha you are the fraud betraying our glorious Macedonian identity to the greeks, this is treason. Stop hiding under your mommy's skirt!

Just remember Peter the republic your talking about is our homeland and the truth is, it is ca. 19 years old. The thousand year old region first belonged to the Greek tribe known as the Temenid Macedonians which held the area of the modern Greek province, followed by Romans who included the area of present day ROM, then came our forefathers (yours and mine) the Bulgarians who included the areas of Thrace as well. Be proud of our Slavic ethnicity and remember stealing other peoples material is just as bad as stealing your neighbours ancient identity. Stop being a fraud, [...]

Read the full comment think and write for yourself even if it is in a selective prose.

The Republic of Macedonia has been around for thousands of years, while you greeks are artificial creation of the great powers. Why cant you accept this truth? Just open a book and learn Macedonian history!

Peter I think you've done it. You have out-frauded the fraud. Stefov is considered by many in Macedonia as the voice piece of the liars and cheaters in the diaspora who has done nothing else but to line his pockets for a secure future for himself and his greedy family. You on the other hand have become more of a fraud than him by lying, cheating, and stealing someone elses material without giving it any creditation. I wonder if you were serious about your work in managing 75 geriatrics in Poland. What cheating and corrupt advantage did you create for [...]

Read the full comment yourself to receive such a responsible job. Being a fabricator of your supposed ancient Greek roots and a denouncer of your REAL Slavic ethnicity is one thing but to act as if your educated is something else. In the world of academia we are able to pick out those who received a postulated education. In other words it is like saying you are english because you can write the language but to others who read it they can tell by your syntax, vocab, and active voice that you are a fraud.

Macedonia 4 the REAL Macedonians Bulgarians, Greeks, vlachs, Roma, etc.

Long Live Vasko Gligorov, the Macedonian Youth, and SDSM

The situation can only get worse if we continue to keep quiet and play their games by their rules. Why talk with them about our name when clearly that name is already ours? Why not talk with them about the "others things"; like the many things they stole from us and the abuses we endured from them? Why are we keeping silent about that?

No! The time for silence is over! It´s time to speak up and demand that we stop talking about our name, something which is already ours, and start talking about giving back [...]

Read the full comment everything that was stolen from us; our rights, our lands, our language, our heritage our dignity and our Macedonia. All of our Macedonia! Those who deny these things from us are nothing more than pirates and identity thieves. And if we don´t stand up to them, in time they will steal all our people and worse they turn them against us the same way they have done in the past.

Assimilation of Macedonians is not dead; it is alive and well and thrives each time a Macedonian school is closed in Albania or a Macedonian organization is shut down in Bulgaria or each time someone says "we need to change our name to enter some useless institution". Every time we allow that to happen we lose a piece of ourselves. If we are NOT Macedonians then what are we? WE ARE NOTHING! And that is exactly what our enemies want us to be, NOTHING! That is why we cannot and must not keep quiet about our plight because if we do we will bring forth our own extinction.

For those who have not yet noticed, there is a life and death struggle going on between our artificially created neighbours and the Macedonians. This struggle has been waged since Roman times and has been a struggle for survival. Truth may not matter much to our enemies or to their patrons but it matters to us. It is a guiding light for us which has given us the strength to fight on. We are not weeds or "undesirables" as our enemies have labeled us; we are a righteous people with an enormously rich background; something to be proud of; something worthy of fighting for. We have roots that extend to Neolithic times, something that cannot be easily plucked out. There are some who even believe that it is the Macedonians which gave Europe its culture and civilization.

So the next time you witness an injustice committed against us don´t turn away in silence, stand up and do something!

Peter
I see no answer yet
Ccrthago delenda est
leka nost

Unfortunately Greece is not the only one which has stolen and is still stealing people from Macedonia. The Bulgarians claim "Macedonians are Bulgarians". What does that tell you? It tells me that Bulgaria too is devoid of Bulgarians and needs Macedonians to build not only its heritage but population as well. Albania too over the years has been stealing Macedonians by claiming that all Muslims in Macedonia were Albanians and by denying the Macedonians living in Albania their human rights. The same was true in Serbia until the Republic of Macedonia asserted its independence in 1945.

[...]

Read the full comment There are some who believe everything from the Adriatic to the Black Sea and from the Danube River to the Mediterranean Sea was one time Macedonian. Surely history supports that claim as well and some. If Greece and Bulgaria can lay claim to Macedonia on historic grounds then why doesn´t Macedonia use the same principle? As you can see history can be used as a political tool to make all kinds of absurd claims but there are some facts that cannot be denied and that is the injustices Greece and Bulgaria have perpetrated against the people in Macedonia regardless of their ethic identity. Regardless of what the Greeks and Bulgarians call us and who they think we are, the fact remains that they came to our lands under false pretences, invaded and occupied us and then took our lands, identity, history and heritage and made it their own. They abused, tormented, tortured, exiled and killed many of us in the process and that to me is a criminal act for which these people will eventually have to pay!

We Macedonians have stolen nothing from anyone; in fact they are the ones who have stolen everything from us, our lands, our homes, our heritage, our history, our identity, our dignity and our people. Now we are at a stage where we want all these things back and there is nothing wrong with asking to have them back. For those who think that our situation can get worse if we speak up. You are wrong. How much worse can it get? They already own our lands, homes, history, heritage and dignity. How much worse can it get when they say to our faces that we don´t exist? How much worse can it get when they already want to exterminate us and see us all dead?

Peter
Who is speaking about Bulgarian
Script all i want is to see the "makedonski acript" and specially the "ANCIENT MAKEDONSKI SCRIPT"

Pam,my lass
As long as Goldmann&Sachs exists
there will be flying Derivatives with offShore companies at astake
Pigs.pies,piis,piss... and so on
we both know the story very well.

Can't help but observe :

(a) anything remotely archaeological in Afghanistan in the 1980s/90s was destroyed by the Taliban as it "defamed Allah", like those superb Buddhist statues in the Hindu Kush.

(b) anything surviving - especially in the Cyrillic alphabet - was more likely a relic of some Soviet soldier with a gift for calligraphy and considerable time to spare. (Not a joke - the original Rosetta Stone was found by a French Army officer with time on his hands and some skill at archaeology.)

Sorry to [...]

Read the full comment be a sceptic, but the sky here is full of flying pigs.....

Scipio Africanus,that is right,found in Afganistan.The thing is someone said it is in Bulgarian. There was no Bulgarian language those days,you know it and I know it.

Peter!
Did you do something for yourself
have you found the documentation of the Stone you claimed was from the Ancient Bactria (AFGHANISTAN)and written in "Macedonian"
not The Rosetta one which was found in Egypt etc etc.

Scipio Africanus,we know about the Zhelevo club,but do you know of Oshchima that was established on October 26th,1907? Do you know of the Buff and others who are Macedonian and not "Ellinophily"?When these Benefit Society was establishe, Greece was not even close to the Macedonian land. We do know that, we have Bulgarophili,Serbophili etc.due to conditions of our people under preassure by occupying forces.When over a million ethnic Macedonians are not recognised by Greece,refused jobs in government offices etc.what do you think people will do?. Either you accept the conditions dealt to you or emigrate. And that, did happen with [...]

Read the full comment the Macedonian people.

The Odysseus BC,Obviously we are two Peters on this site.In order to continue the talks between Greece and Macedonia,the Greek representatives in EU,and their gov.must stop the fabrications. Take for instance Dimitrios Kypreos the Greek ambassador to Germany who tried to raise diplomatic scandal.He has put Greece into an uncomfortable position durring the security conference in Munich as he has tried to rasise a diplomatic scandal with Macedonian President Gjorge Ivanov.Greece is engulved in xenophobia and in a myth that does not exist.The myth that Macedonia is greek,it is an outright lie."The historical map of Greece"in 1832 Greece consisted of [...]

Read the full comment Peloponesos and Thesalia, in 1881 came to the Olympos area,in 1913 Macedonia,Kriti and Epiros. Macedonia was divided by the Big Powers and Kriti was overtaken by force againts the Big Powers agreement.You can find this information under "E Enopeese Tes Ellados"in eglish "The Union of Greece".History is there for you to read.The historians like the one who wrote to President Obama Miller was paid by Greece.More than half of those who signed his letter have changed their minds,and wrote againts Millers theory. These are the Greek paid "Historians"to fabricate history. We do know,the western,more precise the English and German historians did write history to glorify the ancient Hellens,the ones you have no connection to.

Peter
You say or Stefov says it makes no importance my good man
<<< For every Macedonian organization in existence in the Diaspora the Greek state made sure there was an opposing Greek one which held its events on the same day, making sure none of its flock strayed. Some organizations which began in the 1950´s exist to this day. Some like the powerful Macedonian Organization "Zhelevo brotherhood" which established most of the foundations for Macedonian culture in Canada was completely obliterated by the Greeks and replaced with their own Organization named "Andartikon" which is not [...]

Read the full comment only in existence to this day but proved to be one of the most anti-Macedonian organizations in Toronto after the Greek sponsored "Pan Macedonians".>>>
The answer is
“Actioni contrariam semper et æqualem esse reactionem: sive corporum duorum actiones in se mutuo semper esse æquales et in partes contrarias dirigi.”
The English translation goes
''To every action there is always an equal and opposite reaction: or the forces of two bodies on each other are always equal and are directed in opposite directions''.
3rd principle of Mechanics (Sir Isaac Newton).

Peter
Instead of ranting usong others peolple words(Stefov's)
Do something for yourself
find the documentation of the Stone you claimed was from Bactria and written in "Macedonian"
not The Rosetta one.
priaten den

Pam
At last it dawned upon you !!!

Greece's reluctant attitude to recognize some people did not come out of the blue!!

If you believe Greek claims that "everyone in Greece is Greek" then don´t take my word for it, find out for yourself. More than 75% of the Macedonians living in the Greater Toronto Area come from Greek occupied Macedonia. You all know the circumstances under which you or your predecessors left your villages and came here. So ask yourself this question; "If everyone in Greece is Greek then everyone in your village whom you know must also be Greek. Then who are the Greeks from your village?" Is it the Prosfigi or Asia Minor Turkish Christian settlers that Greece deposited [...]

Read the full comment in your village during the 1920´s to whom your family lost their lands? Is it your own relatives who decided to become Greek because it was better to be a "living Greek" than a "dead Macedonian"? Or is it the criminals who co-operated with the Bulgarians and Germans during the occupation and became instant Greeks after it? Who are these Greeks who deny our rights? I can´t find any in my village, can you? The only Greeks I know are those who pretend to be Greeks in order to gain advantage over us. They are the ones who call me "Slav", "Skopjan", "Bulgarian", etc. and some of whom ironically are my own distant relatives. No matter how hard you try to find "genuine Greeks" anywhere in Macedonia, they simply don´t exist!

Until recently the Macedonians have been losing not only their lands but their identity. Macedonia´s neighbours have stolen from us our lands, history, identity and heritage and something of which we think very little; our people. If the Macedonians in Greece are Greeks like the Greeks say they are then where did they come from? I say they were stolen from Macedonia because the Greek identity is an empty shell devoid of people. The real Greek identity died along with the so-called ancient Greeks 2,000 years ago. Anyone who claims to be Greek today belongs to the Albanian, Macedonian, Vlach, Turkish, etc., ethnic identity and is only Greek in a political but not in an ethnic sense. And by political I mean for a person to be Greek they must subscribe to the idea that they are a descendent of the ancient Greeks, speak the Greek language and act Greek. That unfortunately is still not enough, one has to also deny their true ethnic identity and claim that it does not exist in order to be a "pure Greek"!

This comment has been removed by the moderator because it contained off-topic content

Here's the lengthy and informative Wikipedia item on the Greek Civil War, which actually covers up to its end in 1949 (despite its title !)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_Civil_War#Background:_1941-44

I know that not everybody likes using Wiki as a sole source, so I'll find and post another source as well.

Hope this is helpful

Odysseus - with respect, I think you are ignoring the Greek Civil War 1946-49, in which some 10% of the Greek population lost their lives or were deported.

This - territorially- covered much of northern Greece, the southernmost part of then-Jugoslavija, the "Pirin Macedonia" part of Bulgaria, and also part of Albania/Sqiperia.

It is still a sensitive subject in all these regions, not least as it is still within living memory of the older members of the population, and (not surprisingly) the school history books in all four of these countries tell [...]

Read the full comment the story very differently and show very different maps of the same region !

Peter your nearly there, a few more pages of cutting and pasting and I think your got the whole article. Must be fun to reduce yourself (and many of us) to ridicule. There are two types of people in the world those who think for themselves and those who need others to think for them. We have realised that all your arguments from the time you began posting have been nothing more than a hogwash of nationalistic rants and worst of all they are all created for you. Our country is lucky that the diaspora who will soon be carrying [...]

Read the full comment a new identity with the rest of us actually don't live here. While the Greek speaking Macedonians can lay claim to antiquity the modern Bulgarian speaking Macedonians lay claim to our modern Northern Macedonia which is home to all of us. Actually Stefov has dozens of tarnished articles Peter, I'm sure it could keep you busy for a few months.

Peter ,
Stop going on about this Greek genoside upon its people of Macedonia!
Thats all you can talk about ?
It never happened and name changing was accepted by the individual immigrant from Yugoslavia at the time in order to have a better life in Greece !

Their are many migrants of Yugoslavia today that i personally know who have not changed their names back to Slavic. Marcopoulos to Marcovski.
They don't want to. They want to keep Greek background as they have grown up that way [...]

Read the full comment .
As these people that i know tell me they were not forced to change their names by the Greek government as you and others claim.

In order to escape the Yugoslav regime it was the best way to start a new life in Greece.
You people of FYROM are well known to fabricate and alter history to your advantage.

There are people from Albania, Iraq, Africa, who live in Greece today. Speak the Greek language and have changed their name to Greek in order to have a better life .
They certainly have not been looking down the barrel of a gun by the Greek government for a name change.
So Peter, that's what happened back then with the people of Yugoslavia they changed their name to Greek for a better life.
People who emigrated to Australia in the 60's and 70 's did the same thing.



Peter you still have avoided my original question i asked you to answer...

The history books that have been written on Ancient Greece that I'm shore you have read, that sit on the shelves in all major Universities around the world, that state that Ancient Macedonia and Alexander The Great is Greek .
Do you believe the history books written are telling the truth or it is all untrue, fabrication, forgery and lies ?

Do you believe that once our "Great Trustworthy politicians" that we have establish, a suitable name for the people of FYROM,
that this conflict between the two countries will be over or tensions will still exist for the worse .

Peter,
You keep on referring to a horrific genocide committed by Greece to Macedonia?
From 1940 to 1990 Albania, Yugoslavia, Bulgaria, bordered Greece.
Greece has never had any jurisdiction in any of these countries to commit such horrific genocide.
FYROMacedonia, did not exist at that time. Was not even on the map.
So you claim the Greeks did all this genocide to the Greeks ?
The other states of Greece committed a horrific genocide on the state of Macedonia ?
The Metaxas dictatorship during 1930 did [...]

Read the full comment not commit any of such unfounded monstrosity to Greece and to its State of Macedonia as you claim.
Macedonia in that time was always a Greek state as it is today .

Some, people of FYROM today claim a Nazi type of holocaust commited by the Greeks to the Yugoslav people.
There has never been any recorded proof and mysteriously no international organisation ever recorded such a genocide.

In fact Metaxas loved his country Greece and was a true patriot as he proudly showed his patriotism of Greece during WWII against the Germans.

During 1967 to 1972 Greece was in dictatorship of George Papadopoulos.
Why didn't Yugoslavia mess with him then and claim a country of Macedonia ?
It would of been WAR at a heart beat !
No one did. Not even the Turks as they knew the consequence of any interference with Greece.
The Army of Greece and Russia at that time of the ( cold war )was the most powerful.


He was a true leader and if he was in power today would not put up with all this garbage of Slavs claiming to be Macedonian and descendant of the Ancient Greek.
If only the Greek politicians of today had his mentality and balls Greece would be better off !

Long live Metaxas !
Long live George Papadopoulos !
Long live Macedonia !
Long live Greece !

As Sasha states,
Long Live Vasko Gligorov, the Macedonian Youth, & SDSM

Outside of Greece, when these menacing Greek acts drove the Macedonian population out of their homeland to the Diaspora, Macedonian sentiment did not die as expected but flourished. So the Greek state extended its policies of forcibly assimilating Macedonians to outside of its borders. If a Macedonian living in Canada for example "felt Macedonian" then his or her relatives still living in Greece were punished. Unfortunately just punishing the relatives was not enough! Greece demanded obedience of these people even outside of Greece. In addition to "stop feeling Macedonian" these people were required to be Greeks and to show their [...]

Read the full comment Greek-ness by joining anti-Macedonian organizations, participating in anti-Macedonian rallies and demonstrations and by regularly attending Greek Church. Family members were expected to keep their Greek name, be baptized and married in Greek churches, attend Greek school and be all round normal Greeks.

For every Macedonian organization in existence in the Diaspora the Greek state made sure there was an opposing Greek one which held its events on the same day, making sure none of its flock strayed. Some organizations which began in the 1950´s exist to this day. Some like the powerful Macedonian Organization "Zhelevo brotherhood" which established most of the foundations for Macedonian culture in Canada was completely obliterated by the Greeks and replaced with their own Organization named "Andartikon" which is not only in existence to this day but proved to be one of the most anti-Macedonian organizations in Toronto after the Greek sponsored "Pan Macedonians".


And who exactly are these Greeks or should I say "born-again Macedonians" who deny our existence and want us dead and gone?

Peter I see your hard at work cutting and pasting the rest of Stefovs fabrications. You certainly have no scruples. Remember when you begin a cycle of cheating, lying, and promoting deceit to get into the history books all you do is claim the one and only big lie. It is ashame that your old age didn't teach you to be humble. To copy ideas especially ones that are concocted, and lack any credible evidence only helps your image to tarnish the very people you defend. It is because of people like you Peter that we are grateful in Macedonia [...]

Read the full comment to have enormous intellectual mobility (uni professors, SDSM politicians, etc.) and support by REAL Macedonians who are not afraid of their history and don't need to steal someone else's. One tip tell everyone where you got your Stefov article from so no-one decides to sue you. But I guess the diaspora cut and paste each others fabrications.

Macedonia for the REAL Macedonians
e.g. Bulgarians, Greeks, Vlachs, etc.
Long Live Vasko Gligorov, the Macedonian Youth & SDSM

Peter,
You avoid my question Why ?
Its a simple question.
You seem to have an answer for everything else ?
Why cant you answer ?
Could it be that the history books written on Ancient Greece and Alexander The Great is Greek True ?
YES Peter it is TRUE !

hildren and even adults were made to drink castor oil and other dreaded deadly potions when caught speaking what the Greeks called "that filthy Gypsy language". Hey folks when are we going to wake up and see what has been happening to us? When are we going to awaken from the stupour and realize what these monsters from the so-called "cradle of democracy" have done to us? When are we going to stop sparing their feelings and start telling our story the way it is? And who are these people we are protecting? Are we protecting ourselves from their further [...]

Read the full comment abuse or are we protecting them and keeping silent so that they can continue to abuse us? Even in this day and age they violate our rights on a daily basis by denying our rights, not only in Greece but outside in our own sovereign state. How long are we going to suffer in silence?

And who exactly are they and what gives them the right to do all that to us? They are not even Greeks but Macedonians just like us, Albanians, Vlachs, Turks and others who bought into the idea that they can pretend to be "Greeks" and abuse us to no end.

I am sorry to say unfortunately it is us who give them that right by keeping silent and by being willing to let others "negotiate" things with them that are clearly ours.

Miraculously, like the weed no one wants, to the surprise and chagrin of our enemies and their benefactors, we continued to exist and propagate our Macedonian identity through our language, culture and customs, in secrecy if we have to. No wonder the Greeks had to introduce so many drastic measures to stop our proliferation and our polluting of their pureness.

When one drastic measure did not work the Greeks were not above introducing another. The next measure they introduced was the encouragement of "Greek men" to marry Macedonian women in hopes of producing pure Greek offspring. When that didn´t work the Greek state introduced preschool kindergartens in order to Hellenize Macedonian children and teach them to speak Greek and pump them full of anti-Macedonian propaganda before they had the chance to learn their Macedonian mother tongue or experience their own culture and customs.

Peter shame on you. There is no need to be a fraud. Plagiarising someone else's material is luckily for you not a capital offence. Obviously Risto Stefov is like those other diaspora frauds an idol in your eyes otherwise you would not have copied his material word for word. Stefov is dellusional he seems to think (like yourself) that every Greek speaking Macedonian in the Macedonian Province of Greece actually came over as refugees from Anatolia. As this understatement is the core of his argument Stefov disregards the Turkish records which explicitly document the presence of Greeks, Bulgarians, Vlachs, etc., [...]

Read the full comment in the Macedonian millets more than two centuries before there was a influx of refugees. Your dislike for the Macedonian Greeks is one thing but your underhanded attempt to cut and paste from a fellow antiquisationist certainly puts you in the cesspool. Macedonians are ready for everything but cheats, liars, and frauds Peter are considered at the bottom of society, so next time do your own research, I'm sure Stefov's overweight body could use a bit of exercise to burn some of those extra kilos he's put on from sitting behind his computer and eating his fried Canadian chicken. Assimilation my friend is another word for acculturation, in other words people accept one anothers influences, cultural traits, and regional accents. For example, you can't object that most of our food and music is Turkish influenced. Just as there are many words in our languages that are borrowed from our neighbours e.g. oro from the Greek Choro, rakija from the Turkish raki, etc. The world Peter is not as black and white as you would like, yet you have convinced many that you actually do hate everyone who is not an antiquisationist. Thankfully there are many Macedonians who disagree with your narrow minded views so if you want to cheat your way through life, a word of advice is try doing it inconspicuously e.g. don't copy other peoples articles which are on the web.

Long Live the Macedonian Youth & SDSM

Greek authorities also changed all place names including those of villages, towns, cities, lakes, mountains, rivers, roads, etc. In this case Macedonians were not even consulted and most names chosen were arbitrary and meaningless.

While one part of the Greek administration was assimilating the Macedonians through personal, family and place name changes, another was dispatched to remove all traces of Macedonia including Macedonian writing on public buildings, churches, gravestones, etc. While the writing on stone in public buildings was chiseled out, entire cemeteries were bulldozed and turned into fields. Tombstones were used as building material and [...]

Read the full comment buried in foundations. While bibles, church and other Macedonian books were collected and burned, contractors were hired to paint over church icons with Macedonian writing and replace it with Greek.

Even though all that was Macedonian was banned and prohibited from use, the real clampdown came in the form of strongly enforced law in the 1930´s when the Macedonian language was banned. At this point the Greek state introduced night classes for Macedonian adults in order to force them to learn Greek. To force the people to speak Greek, the Macedonian language was banned, by law, from use in public and in private. To make sure no one spoke Macedonian, the Greek state deployed a massive police force to spy on people in all sectors of life, including the privacy of their homes. In addition to their regular pay, each policeman received a percentage of the fines imposed on those caught speaking Macedonian. The fines were hefty and most violators had to either borrow money or sell their assets to pay for them. This was devastating for the old and poor who did not speak Greek and had no choice but to speak Macedonian, particularly in the marketplace when they needed to buy groceries. Some people were even fined for uttering commands in Macedonian to their beasts of burden and dogs.

Having not lived under these circumstances I cannot possibly describe how I would feel if I were deprived of speaking the only language I knew. I do not know how I would feel if I was unable to recognize the names of my best friends, not able to ask to purchase my groceries, or unable to explain myself when summoned to court to pay my fines! I cannot possibly understand how it feels to sell part of my family´s property which was owned by my family for countless generations in order to pay a fine, fined for speaking the only language I know, a fine imposed on me in my own hometown where I was born and grew up? But that was not all!

Peter,
Can you answer this question very simply to the point please.

The history books that have been written on Ancient Greece that I'm shore you have read, that sit on the shelves in all major Universities around the world, that state that Ancient Macedonia and Alexander The Great is Greek .
Do you believe the history books written are telling the truth or it is all untrue, fabrication, forgery and lies ?

Do you believe that once our "Great Trustworthy politicians" that we have establish, a suitable [...]

Read the full comment name for the people of FYROM,
that this conflict between the two countries will be over or tensions will still exist for the worse .

Many times I have written about Macedonians being assimilated by the Greeks in the past; references I made in error. Macedonians were not only assimilated in the past but are being continuously assimilated as we speak. It is happening more often than one would realize.

By assimilation I mean both voluntary and involuntary absorption of ethnic Macedonians into other ethnic or national groups. My interest in this article, however, will focus on the involuntary type where Macedonians are stripped of their rights to be Macedonians.

Assimilation of Macedonians on a massive scale [...]

Read the full comment began right after Macedonia was invaded, occupied and partitioned in 1912, 1913 when Greece, Serbia and Bulgaria established a foothold in Macedonian territories. In Greece, for example, Macedonians were told: "as of this point forward this is Greece and you are Greeks and if you don´t like it you have 24 hours to pack your things and take whatever you can carry on your backs and get out". Many Macedonian left and eventually ended up in the USA, Canada and Australia.

The second massive wave of forced assimilation in Greek occupied Macedonia came in the 1920´s when Greece introduced a program designed to rename everything Macedonian so that it sounded Greek. Greek administrators supported by the military were sent from village to village to gather Macedonians and issue them new names. Some names were direct translations of the original Macedonian names, most however, particularly those which had strong connections to Macedonia, were completely changed. If a person could not pick a suitable Greek-sounding name, they were issued one.

Peter
Take your time no rush
dober vecher!

Peter your fake identity did not even exist in the 1800s, the Ottoman population records do not mention any "makedonski" nor "ethnic macedonians" but do say there were greeks, bulgarians, muslims, jews and vlachs. Why do you avoid this truth? The truth hurts doesn't it. With the albanians wanting to break up your federal state I'd say good luck to you!

Scipio Africanus; This stone was discovered in Afganistan,I might spelled it wrong,but it was in (Bahtria).I believe this is the correct name.If you dont find it, I will check it out for you on my internet. I read it and smeone said it was written in Bulgarian from the Alexanders time.I realise, we aew in different time zones. Our time is 5:30 pm.

Peter
hello there!!
Of what stone in Afghanistan are
are you talking about we and i personally will be gratefull if you could document your ascertation, in plain english tell us where, when, and by whom the stone In Afghanistan,was found, it is of major importance.

Scipio Africanus,I was talking about the stone found in Afganistan just reasontly.They said its in Bulgarian.Bulgaria did not exist my friend,or they are mentioned in history durring Alexanders times.The fabrications still continue.As I said,we will see what happens at the talks and the ICJ.Greeces claims are not substansiated on the name issue.I wish you good luck on this matter. Have a nice day!

Odysseus BC,if you knew the history of the Macedonians in Greek occupied land, your comments might have been a little different.Since the Metaxas dictatorship in the 1930 the Macedonian people have paid dearly with blood,re-setlement of the Pontious and re-distibution of lands that Greece expelled to Bulgaria and those who left for the west.Greece continued after the 1949 in same fashion.Ethnic Macedonians are not permitted to returne to their birth places unless they declair an ethnicity they are not.Children refugees from age 2 months to 14 years old are not permitted to visit their birth place.Your comments are simply a [...]

Read the full comment fabrication or you have no idea of this situation. The Greek comunists in 1948 came to Romania and took the 13 and 14 year old boys to fight in Greece. These boys were all Macedonian.The Greek government together with the CPG they dealt us another blow ever since 1913. This was planned to expell the Macedonians and deny our rights to re-claim our land.Just take a look at the Greek census of the 1926,you will find 3 different censuse reports.This sensus was never published by Greece.Dont you think it is fishy?.Well,I dont intend to change your mind,but to tell you what is the truth.I dont think I have to tell you that I was born in the Greek part of Macedonia,or I was in Romania when the 14 year old boys were taken back to Greece to fight.This is called a crime. Greeces crimes are numerouse againts the Macedonian minority.Greece has stolen the Macedonian history,its not the othere way round. The UN sponsored name talks is a farce.

Scipio is right - let's all give it a try with "Northern Macedonia", and hope Gruevski falls off a cliff somewhere, meanwhile !

We've had enough of "schoolbook" diplomacy elsewhere in Europe over the years. It rarely leads to lasting peace.

Odysseus
I thoroughly agree with your exegesis but the Balkans must rest
"lets give it a try with the geographical qualifier "Nothern" " and see how it goes.
Certainily no recognition of minority in Greece.

The reinvention of ancient Macedonia.

Schoolbooks in the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia consistently represent Macedonia as encompassing a region that consists of FYROM, the Greek administrative district of Macedonia and parts of other countries. An astonishing fabrication of history teaches schoolchildren that these borders of "Macedonia" existed from antiquity and that their country was "dismembered" and Macedonians underwent a genocide by the Greeks.

Indeed, young children in the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia are taught through their schoolbooks that Macedonians were a non-Greek people that have inhabited the land of Macedonia [...]

Read the full comment continuously. They are taught that this exact land as shown in the maps of Greater FYROM, was exactly the same as that inhabited by the ancient Macedonians. The boundaries are shown again and again in their schoolbook maps to have remained the same from antiquity! These schoolchildren are taught that the Greeks expelled the "Macedonians" from the "Aegean" part of this country in the middle of the 20th century. Generations of poisoned minds have since the days of Tito and again since 1998 been taught to believe that Greeks expelled their "Macedonian" but Slav speaking forefathers from their ancestral lands in some kind of genocide – that mysteriously no international organisation ever recorded. Raised with this kind of modern myth, it is no surprise Greece is faced with an insistence that their country (FYROM) should be named Macedonia and that no other name would be acceptable to them.

It is sad but true. Furnished with this kind of evidence, one is convinced that people can be raised in schools to believe in anything whatsoever, and to be poisoned as children to hate a people for imagined reasons. Unfortunately, this tactic of the FYROM government also revives the expansionist policies of Tito against historic Macedonia (in Greece). It reveals a sinister side in the claims of FYROM on Macedonian history and heritage despite assurances made to the United Nations prior to the Interim Agreement. These aggressive policies are carried out at a time when FYROM paradoxically wants to join the European Union and NATO - of which the invented enemy Greece is a member. Even more ironically, the current FYROM government claims and says to NATO that this policy of inciting ethnic hatred against Greece (and suitably inventing history schoolbooks for this purpose) is in the interests of peace in the region.

In the school books, there is again and again a map of Macedonia with fixed borders. It includes not only FYROM but also the present administrative region of Macedonia in Greece and parts of Bulgaria and Albania. This "Macedonia" is shown unaltered from times immemorial. Something like this type of map appeared for the first time in an ethnological description in 1899 by a Greek named C. Nicolaides and had formed the Greek view for the 1913 Bucharest Treaty discussions regarding the ethnicities in the region.

It will be the biggest mistake in the history of Ancient and Modern Greece if it accepts or gives in by officially accepting FYROM to the name of MACEDONIA !
North Macedonia ( Slavic )
South Macedonia ( Greek )
Take example North and South Korea.
By splitting the two countries into North and South all it did was to provoke them into WAR !
We DO NOT want a North and South Korea copy cat in Europe.
This will create a much more hostile environment between the two countries and in the near future result in a catastrophic outcome for both countries as Skopje is already claiming territorial rights to its neighbor Greece.
The government in Skopje is to understand that it cannot build a national identity at the expense of historic truth. Our common international society cannot survive when history is ignored, much less when history is fabricated.
So far FYROM is the only country in the Balkans to be recognized without Blood Shed.
Lets keep it that way !

The Odysseus BC .

Peter, I am sure you were a competent manager but it doesn't change the fact that looking after 75 geriatrics is similar to fabricating a personalised identity. The diaspora have always fabricated their identity in their host countries at the expense of our people here in Macedonia. Don't you see while your antiquisationists claim a connection to the Greek Al.Veliki you simultaneously deny our real ancestors of Delchev & co. Either you are ashamed of our revolutionay forefathers or the temptation of having Greek roots in your blood is more attractive. You believe that we are the only Macedonians in [...]

Read the full comment the region which in effect shows your hypocricy by rejecting others like the Greeks, Bulgarians, Vlachs, Romas and others who also have a legitimate claim to their Macedonian Identity. In other words you are not the only Macedonian Peter but just one of MANY who all have different ethnicities, yours like mine stemming from a Slvic ethnicity. Droutsas is as much a Macedonian as you Peter as was Ataturk, Mother Teresa, and our former PM Georgievski. You condemn (and I agree) Greeces purity strategy yet here you are a hypocrite trying to tell us all that you come from a pure Macedonian people who have never been mixed with all the surrounding ethnicities. Do you finally see your flawed argument, there was/is no pure Macedonian ethnicity as the historical narrative, our language, our oros, songs, wedding customs, even our surnames originally ending in -ov (which were -ski-ized in 1944) have all got Slavic (& possibly Greek, Turkish, & Albanian admixtures)origins. As I can accept that your upbringing conditioned your current state of mind you must also accept that when the name issue has finally been negotiated to a possible Northern Macedonian identity just be proud of who you really are and steer away from your neighbours fabrications of ancient connections as they continue to make fools not only out of you and our diaspora but also us here back at home.

Long Live Vasko Gligorov, the Macedonian Youth, & SDSM

Peter avoids clear evidence, it's ironic that his best friends the Turks would provide such clear evidence that his identity is fake and didnt exist even in the 1800s. The Truth points to itself

Peter you time and time again avoid the question of the Ottoman population records which Veritas was so kind as to show you the link. For the 100th time why are there no mention of "makedonski" or "ethnic macedonians"??? You see that they mention greeks as one of the biggest population in Macedonia, also Muslims, Jews and some Bulgarians (which you originate from). Stop avoiding this issue and come to terms with your Bulgarian identity!

Peter
<<The scripture on the rozeta stone are in 3 languages.The stone discovered in Afganistan is in Macedonian,not Bulgarian or Greek.>>
You are a monument of“illiteracy" my good man.
The stone on which A.tentov and T.Bosevski developed their “theory” was the Rosetta Stone found in Egypt not Afghanistan , discovered by the French in 1799 at Rosetta (town called El Rashid in Arabic in the Nile Estuary) and contributed greatly to the deciphering of the principles of hieroglyph writing in 1822 by the British scientist Thomas Young and the French scholar Jean-François Champollion.
[...]

Read the full comment /> the only thing i can it is time to take your piills and go nani
Cathago delenda est.

Scipio,you are a joke.I know you do dissagree with my comments on the issue of Macedonia.But than again,how can I blame you,your country has been fabricating history for long time.These are the reasons Macedonia is engaged in talks.Fabricators do have a problem,dont they?. You are no different.Lets see what happens after the 26th of February,with Nimitz. I can tell you,the most interesting thing will be when the ICJ starts. I wonder,why Drutsas said to Macedonia to stop the ICJ in order to allow Macedonia into the EU by FYROM. Why Greece Veto Macedonias membership to NATO under the FYROM, but [...]

Read the full comment now it is OK? Greeces problems are multiplying day by say.320 billion is not a small thing,because even the boots they wear are not paid.The politics of Greece will bring them to the 19th century.The scripture on the rozeta stone are in 3 languages.The stone discovered in Afganistan is in Macedonian,not Bulgarian or Greek.Did you people read the MacDougal report on minorities in Greece? read it, it will take to the right path.Nimitz cannot solve this problem,it is wrong for the UN under its charter ! to do so.

Peter
To ask me that question I am afraid you did not read quite attentively my posts.
have you ????
WHO SAID I WAS OR AM JOKING ?
Cheers

Scipio Africanus,I bet my money on Macedonia.I do not play with two faces like you and your other friends do.You people and I mean the Bulgarians and Greeks must make-up your minds if you are Macedonian or Greek.With all the indications one of you claim we are Bulgarians and the other claim we are Bulgarians.Dont you think you are in different planet? Let me straighten your problem;We are Macedonians by ethnicity.We are not what you claim. Good day!

Peter
realy should read really
mentalkity should read mentality
penasion should read pension
qaquestion should read question

typos due to haste.

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Peter no one is telling you that you are greek, Macedonia IS GREEK and the word itself has a meaning in greek and that you cannot deny. However you are a SLAV, specifically a BULGARIAN. The Ottoman's recorded BULGARIANS, Greeks, Jews, Muslims and Vlachs in present day Skopje and you STILL do not explain why there are no mention of "makedonski". You are drunken old fool

Peter.
The work you describe suits you
well you realy have the mentalkity of a people's commissar in penasion....that time is bygone my good man wether you reside in Florina or fYROM
About your qaquestion there is no Issue to decline or accept.
dober vecher.

Brad,Elena,Alex and Scipio Africanus,dont tell me you are dreaming.You guys are expressing yourseves like drunken sailors.First you saying we are Bulgarians,next you say we are Greeks, please make-up your minds if it exists!The mediation is still going on, furtheremore,the UN has no mandate to do this, according to the UN charter 1.You are twisting, fabricating and God knows what else.A question for you;why Greece declined to get the historians from the Balkans to put this matter straight as the Republic of Macedonia suggested?. Have a nice day gentlemen!

Sasha, to whom are you talking on this site? I have no need to claim different ethnicity other than Macedonian.Are you OK with your brain that you are claiming I said something that does not exist?.Your claim on education my friend it shows right here with your comments.Mr.I worked in management for 35 years looking after from 35 to 75 people with other supervisors reporting to me.The mediation with Greece will continue just for a while,than we will see what happens with the ICJ. Your comments on ethnicity are being fabricated. How can you stand and say things like that? [...]

Read the full comment Anyway, have a nice day!

Brad, Peter recently admitted (in his old age) that he is of Bulgarian ancestry like the majority of us in Macedonia. Although he has continued to hold a fundamental sympathy to an antiquisationist view he mentioned indirectly by repeating an article to the question I posed to him of his Slavic origins. To many of our compatriots in the diaspora they have unfortunately been under the impression of flawed evidence that they are the real descendents of the Greek speaking Macedonians of Al.Veliki. The biggest problem for many of these antiquisationists is that back at home in Macedonia this view [...]

Read the full comment is supported by a very small segment of our society and is increasingly shrinking as most Macedonians realise that our forefathers who created our nationality and identity e.g. Gotse Delchev, have left volumes of their early years in the birth of our identity and the Bulgarian character of our people. Delchev openly claimed his Bulgarian heritage and praised the Bulgarian people of Macedonia to help all other Macedonians regardless of their Greek, Vlach, Roma, Albanian, and even Turkish origins in the struggle to free Macedonia from tyranny. These documents reveal to the distate of many antiquisation nationalists that the very people who fought for our freedom openly prided themselves in their Bulgarian ethnicity. Obviously this continues to be down played by some hardliners but the evidence is unequivocally clear. The architects (Delchev, Gruev, Karev, etc.) of our Bulgarian ethnicity not once detached their Macedonian nationality from their Bulgarian ethnicity and it would be difficult to prove otherwise. Today in Prilep. we are celebrating with a festival for the first arrival of Gotse Delchev who came and taught at one of the first Bulgarian schools here.

Long Live the Macedonian Youth & SDSM

Peter, the sooner you admit you are Bulgarian the sooner you will be delivered from the Albanians and save yourselves. The alternative is you are forced under Albanian rule and we all know what happened to Kosovo!

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Every conqueror spreads to his own culture and language, logic states that if the Macedonians were NOT Greek then they would have spread their own culture and language and not some foreign one! Unfortunately Peter you are at a dead end. Oh please do explain why Ottoman records do not mention any "makedonski"?

Peter
Rant as long as you wish that is your problem and ONLY YOURS MY FRIEND
SCRIPTA MANENT VERBA VOLENT
On the metope of the toll stataion
two languasges are written one in Arabic the other in Greek. none of them represent any Ancient Macedonian script as some idioticss like Tentov and Bosevski claim by idiotic phonetic assumptions and scrambled eggs theory concerning the interpretation of the cuneiform characters.
Once and for all put that in your thick skull you can not change history no matter how much your kind [...]

Read the full comment tries.
the lesson is sun rises in the east and sets in the west.
PS.
Why did the Egyptian authorities did not use the coptic Characters
if ancient Macedonian was written
with coptic Characters as
Tentov and Bosevski maintain

nani nani now!!!!


THE

Alex,what was the Athenian population in ancient times.Hey, You must be dreaming,the Ottoman Empire never existed for you?.It is funny how you Greeks turn things around just to suit you. One time I met a Turkish man who was borne in Lerin (Florina) his name was Murat and said he is Macedonian. This is not made up story my friend,its true!I dont know where are you getting your stories,oh yes,the Greek history tells you.Well, wake-up,it is fabricated history. You know why? Greeces arguments on name dispute,you cannot deny peoples ethnicity.I wonder why the European countries are so upset with Greeces [...]

Read the full comment stand on the name.Looks like you dont read much,do you? History is changing right before your eyes. We will see what happens at the ICJ court.

Scipio Africanus,the Greek language in ancient times was used like today the English language, and does not mean Alexander was Greek.Alexanders Empire was Macedonian,and not Greek. The talks between Greece and Macedonia will continue,but let me tell you one very importent issue;The United Nations has no mandate to change the constitutional name of Macedonia. Read Article 1 of the UN,than come back and we can argue about it.

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Yes, Peter your fanaticism shows your denial of the truth. You are bulgarian or you can choose to be albanian, and it appears that you want to be albanian because you cling to your communistic and fanatic ideals which will lead to the dissolution of skopje

Sorry Peter, but according to Ottoman records, the area currently occupied by Skopje had no "ethnic macedonians". It fact Skopje was actually a turkish village. That is why you have such good relations with Turkey because your country use to be Turkish. Furthermore, the Ottoman records reveal that there were Greeks, Muslims, Jews and Vlachs in Salonika but no mention of "makedonski" I think you need to read on macedonian history and take some pills

Oh david, if you were really german you wouldn't make such an issue over the great deficit of England. Do make your characters a little more authentic!

Nimitz will not solve the name dispute,he has or the UN have no mandate to change ones constitutional name.The UN charter says;every person has the right to his/her name.Macedonia did assure Greeces concerns about borders in 1995 under the UN,Greece,Macedonia accord.As I have said on many occasions,Greeces problem is the recognition of the Macedonian minority.The name of the Republic of Macedonia has nothing to do with Greeces concerns. Dimitri,you are ill informed,or for better words "you dont know in what planet you reside".My suggestion to you is read some history. On Friday 19th,2010 at 19:53 CET time under "Peter" is [...]

Read the full comment not my comment.It shows,some of you cannot stand the truth about the Macedonian people,so you resort to put words in someones elses mouth.Good try "Peter" the impastor of the time mentioned above.You people are missing the point here,Greece and the Socialist Republic of Macedonia have been signing trade deals since 1945, and now they say Macedonia does not exist?.You anti-Macedonia commentators just look into Macedonias history with open mind,and not what your polititians are saying for their own political life.

your so-called UK David is no longer wealthy having a deficit right next to Greece! Oh poor David, spoke to soon, but as they say out with the old and in with the new. Thank goodness the former commonwealth colonies such as Canada, Australia and New Zealand gained their independence and are flourishing in sharp contrast to England, a decaying old society. You northern europeans are silly old fools who obviously don't know how to handle your funds any better than the balkans :)

the short answer to Elena is that wealthy UK individuals have been buying properties in Greece and Portugal (another PIGS country about to go belly-up), deluded by Greek and Portuguese mendacious claims that their economies were in sound condition.

They'd have done much better buying in Bansko in Bulgaria....

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If the Yugoslavis can call themselves makedonski then the real Makedones can also stay in Greece. The problema is too many Yugoslavis want to have real Makedones historia and never remember Yugoslavis historia.
H Makedonia Gia tous Makedones! OXI Makidonskis!!

hey david/alex, have you tried pretending to be an american? might prove to be more successful as it is not so obvious as an european country

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Firstly, it's "British Government", not "English Government" (there isn't one) to all you posturing pseudo-Brits. You'll be talking about "England-land" next, just like George W.Bush...

Secondly, those of you with more than one brain cell might just have worked out that for the UK to have a deficit just one decimal digit greater than that of Greece might be the world's best excuse for the UK not to be amongst those bailing out Greece from within the EU....

Who calculates the deficit ?
....the British "Treasury" (Ministry of the Economy [...]

Read the full comment in other countries)

Who would otherwise have to "bail out" Greece ?
....the British "Treasury" (etc etc)

Now, Einsteins of the world and of this site, get out your abacuses and work it out.....

The first one to do so correctly gets a free Sofia tram ticket.

What's wrong David, have you abandoned my Slav character for a German one? How rude! Oh well I guess you like cross-dressing between male and female characters but now the English government is likely to cut spending it seems like you might not have enough money to buy heels and skirts!

David ist eine Schlampe...you are not the only one who can speak languages old man. Peter is mighty considerate to sale is contemporary antiquity statues for your country's economical crises

Because Elena, Koinos Nous and Epamonidas use the same phrase (to my name sake)...the fact that you even care justifies it. YOu are David, a british pensioner who went to a polish university and hates everything greek apparently because a scorpion stung (or as you so incorrectly put it "bit") you at an airport...sound familiar? The evidence is in hundreds of articles on this site you have posted on, do you remember your old characters Dr Duck Island and Dr Cornelius? You are an old man with too much time on your hand, do get a life.

to namesake - what justifies your assumption that I'm getting a British pension ? Fees in Euros
are payable throughout the Euro zone (possibly not in Greece for much longer), but by and large the Euro zone works fairly well, especially in Germany and Spain.

I suggest you digest more facts in future, and rely less on facile assumptions, into which you all too readily fall.

Mit freundlichen Gruessen

Really David, you aren't fooling anyone, I hope the English government doesn't cut your pension in attempts to slow down your crisis

Nothing wrong with living and working in Germany / Deutschland: most of my village are making sure that all their Euro notes have "X" in their index numbers (= printed and issued in Germany)

You seem to forget that there is rather a large British community happily living with BAOR in the Rhineland....we get paid in Euros and don't have to pay UK tax !

The only German city that doesn't welcome us is Dresden....I can't think why !

Berlin, in contrast, is great, especially the former Eastern [...]

Read the full comment bit round Mitte and Alexanderplatz (thus Back On Topic !) Maybe Greece will object to this name too...arme Griechenland. Meiner Seufzer, meine Traegen....

Poor David, get a taste of his own medicine!

Nice try David, but every time you write some anti-greek remark you give yourself away. Hmmm now what do we have to say about you irresponsible Northern Europeans? What goes around comes around and now the world looks down upon you!

What "beloved pound" ? I get paid in Euros (avoiding notes with a "Y" in their number, as that means they were printed in Greece !)

Oh David attacking references will not hide the truth, you are hypocrisy at its best especially since you have copy and pasted several times on this site and asking the moderators to stop this will not hide the truth. Every country and empire eventually falls, denying it certainly will not stop this!

Do not worry David, for your support for the Republic of Macedonia we shall sell some of our statues of Alexander and Philip and donate the money to England in this difficult time for your country

I see David you are down playing your country's plight, the fact that you do so gives away that Alex is David. I'm sorry David but it looks like you have your own pound to worry about and to be honest you had it coming playing your cards against Greece so early in the game and revealing your true nature. There are many articles now being published on the financial plight of your country whether you like it or not and to be honest you are the perfect example of what goes around comes around. Must be embarrassing to see [...]

Read the full comment your beloved pound below the American dollar :)

Well, yes, 12.8% is "worse" than 12.7%, but it's hardly headline news (except for the New Statesman, which is only read by teachers and social workers, and has a tiny circulation !)

The big difference is that the UK is NOT in the Euro zone, whereas Greece is. That's what all the fuss is about.

I would rather see you post something authoritative from the Financial Times, but you may find it hard to do, as the FT has anti-cut-and-paste software in its on-line version. (Moderators - please note ! You might [...]

Read the full comment approve of this.)

Thanks for this information, Veritas. UK with a worse deficit than Greece? This is actually a huge surprise. I would like to know what kind of impact it can have on the EU and on the issue with Greece and if other big countries like Germany or France encounter similar problems, but avoid to tell them.

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How about the Great Skopjan Lie that they come from Alexander (whom you yourself David have admitted that is ridiculous) and the ancient macedonians? Oh and by the way david, we know it's you pretending to be "all for one" and no you are not back but you have been on this site for at least 3 years.

Three hundred billion euros borrowed made Greece this imaginery powerhouse of the balkans and ninety seven years of lies have tried to convince the world that Macedonians are Greek, present or past. I'm back with evidence of the Great Greek Deception!!!

Peter
<<<<As to Scipio Africanus comments on NOF and SNOF have nothing to do with todays Macedonia-Greece talks
>>>>
maybe not but it certainly has to do with the negation of recognition of the so called
minority
remember the story about the sun it rises in the east and sets in the west.
Nothing leaps into existence out of nothig as nothing dissolves into nothing.

Peter's post are examples of the monstrous fabrications created by the Skopje government to legitimize their claim to ancient Macedonia and the macedonian identity. Never did the Greek government endorse nor create a so-called Macedonian dictionary. Greek scholars and academics did not recognise an ethnic macedonian minority but rather recognised the Slav minorities in Greece that comprised of Serbs and Bulgarians. This is further supported by that fact that the Abecedar was written with Latin characters, where as the so-called Skopjan language DOES NOT use the same characters of this book. This book was meant to be a universal guide [...]

Read the full comment to the Serbs and Bulgarians and there are no records of any one referring to it as "macedonian". Furthermore, Ottoman records show that Skopje was a Turkish city in the 1700s and no mention of "macedonians". Peter stop your lies

The UN mediator M. Nimitz knows that Greece is in the wrong side of this issue.According to the UN charter,every people can call themselves what they feel.Macedonians feel is oure and simple,we are Macedonians,not Greek nor Bulgarian.I am sure,you have read the comment made by Zhelev,former President of Bulgaria.You also know what the Greek representative at the League of Nations said about the Macedonian identity and language.Your persistent denial shows how far you can go to falsify history.As for you "Elena" who uses an impastor name,the same with the one that uses once in a while my name are wrong [...]

Read the full comment on the issues."Elena",the editor is right to remove comments that do not stick to the issue.I am sure,one of you have complained to the editor because I do write the truth,and you cant stand it.Getting back to the isue of name talks,first the UN has no mandate to negotiate Macedonias name.Look it up,you will see that Greece has fabricated the name issue.I was watching you tube from Athens on the presentation of the Greek-Macedonian dictionary how the Neo-Nazis were disruptive durring the speach of Dr. Friedman a professor at the Chicago University,also a Dr. professor from the Thesalia University talking about the plight of the Macedonian language in Aegean Macedonia.One interesting comment by Dr. professor Friedman said"The language spocken in Florina, Edessa,Gevgelja and Bitola are one and the same.I said that long time ago as well.As to Scipio Africanus comments on NOF and SNOF have nothing to do with todays Macedonia-Greece talks.Greeces problem is a pure political one,not that they are true.As to my comments being erased,people like yourself complained because the truth hurts you.Have a nice day all!

It looks like the moderators took out the trash: Peter

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This comment has been removed by the moderator because it contained не е по темата на статията

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how about the cities he built? Alexandria?

Bitter you don't have a legacy such a Davidonia? Sorry David you weren't blessed with the genes of a leader

Just what concrete evidence do you have ? The one result of Alexander's peregrinations appears to be an awakening of interest in the Levant by Greek trading interests, who set up trading colonies in the nearer eastern lands that Alexander had invaded, and which MAY have paved the way for the later Byzantine empire. It certainly spread the use of Greek as a commercial language amongst non-Greeks around the Mediterranean coast, that's for sure.

Beyond that - zilch. Show me your evidence....very little exists in current archaeology.

(I should perhaps add that [...]

Read the full comment I am actually a Justice of the Peace in the UK, so your point about being a judge rather falls.)

Over to you, Counsel for the Prosecution (I think I'm really about to enjoy this !)

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Scipio -

Watch your accuracy. I said Xenophon was a "military commander", not a "general". Putting it another way, he was the poor blighter who got stuck with getting his troops home across all sorts of obstacles, and he successfully did it. Thalassa, thalassa ! (or Thalatta etc in the other Ancient Greek dialect.)

And Hitler would certainly have been referred to as "Hitler the Great" if he had won World War II, just as Frederick the Great is still so referred to in Germany. Even under the Communist DDR regime, tourists [...]

Read the full comment were still taken round the Sans Souci Palace in Potsdam and taught to revere their militant (but successful) Prussian warlord, Friedrich der Grosse.

Alexander was not defeated when he died, so he became "The Great". Whether his returning troops, lost in the middle of Mespotamia without a leader, would have agreed, is another matter.

Incognito
Τhe first counter with a Classic is always overwhelming and leaves indelible traces in a young man’s psychology I do indeed agree

Darius and Parysatis had two sons: the elder was named Artaxerxes, and the younger Cyrus. Now, as Darius lay sick and felt that the end of life drew near, he wished both his sons to be with him
Xenophon The ANAVASiS

but to promote a historian and mercenary
to a general “he participated in the expedition of Cyrus against his Brother Artaxerxes II [...]

Read the full comment “
he was one of the leaders of the “Ten Thousand “ on their way back home , YES !!! , but not
General.
The Anabasis is taught in Greek schools as a first encounter with The Attic Dialect together
with the De bello Civilis and De bello Galico for Latin .
You must have been in a hell of a state my man to mix the dates of Hitler and Alexander
The Great of Macedon does anyone refer to Hitler as Hitler the Great?
I don’t think so

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Don't be so critical old man of mortal man who did more than any man on this Earth, a sense of jealousy and insignificance on your part. The Hellenistic world was born out of him, advances in math and science even contemporary scholars agree that the modern world was very similar to the Hellenistic world. After all one of the greatest cities, Alexandria was born from him. The fruits of his works are evident but of course men who doubt there own lack of accomplishment in their old age tend to critique others. In any case, if you want to [...]

Read the full comment be a judge of men, go to university and become a judge, otherwise your word means nothing.

There is of course the (fairly academically respectable) theory that Alexander was what we would call these days a "psychopath", with a consistent history of domestic violence, several personal murders to his name, including some of his own family, and a pronounced belief that he was personally Divine.

If you look critically at the events in his lifetime at the Macedonian Court, plus the fact that he seems to have personally killed most of his military collaborators (and some of his immediate family), plus the fact that he got his army completely lost in the back [...]

Read the full comment of beyond and wouldn't listen to advice, plus the Egyptian affair when the prophet actually told him he was God, it is not difficult to form this conclusion.

Xenophon, in contrast, was a humane and talented military commander who got HIS army back to Greece from the back of beyond in one piece, and who used considerable resourcefulness to do so.(And found the time to write a book about it during a reasonably happy retirement !)

In more modern times the US General Patten was cast in the Alexander mould, while German General Rommel was much more of a Xenophon figure and beloved of his men.

Why Skopje wants to name its airport after one of the world's worst psychopaths after Hitler, plus erecting a statue of the b*gg*r in their capital city, I can't imagine. They would do better to melt it down and cast two statues instead, one of St Cyril and one of St Methodius. That might be more accurate and more appropriate.

United and Greater Macedonia shall rule you all just like in the time of Alexander!

Yeah sure Peter in your Yugo skull
everything that is not Communiast is Faacisst of course you cannot discern shades of grey dont't a lot of people think like that they simply do not have the faculty of tthinking otherwise the poor souls
i wonder whats is wrong with Snof/nof where they angels or maybe cupids what do you think?
by the varkiza agreement was a
a piece of paper which was not ratified by either side check the
dates before stating nonsense
and also remember that the [...]

Read the full comment sun rrises east and sets west. and the Snof/nof organizations existed and were active so was their secession plan which failed that is why Qui
vis paces para bellum.
hard luck
cheers

Scipio Africanus,You are avoiding the qurstion.EAM and ELAS were mixed Greeks and Macedonians fighters who fought the Nazis and the Greek fascist regime in Athens. Next time,dont bring up the NOF &SNOF.Check the Varkiza agreement and thereafter what happened.

Sasha,you still believe that Crvenkovski will save Macedonias name?.He could not do it before,and he is incapable of doing it in future.Gruevski at least talked about our plight the children refuggees from the Aegean Macedonia.I grew up in a Socialist country,I know the differance,and thats why I say to you,Crvenkovski with Frckovski and Sekerinska will never come to power in Macedonia. I could not care about tha Ancient times,but why the Greeks are, even that they have non so ever connection to the Hellens.As for me,the truth is I could not care who is the President or Prime Minister or [...]

Read the full comment for that matter they can install a King/Queen as long as they look after the Macedonian people and not be bought by a foreign government.The talks that are going on,tome will tell.

To Julius: no needs to say "Macedonia Greece", dear compatriot. Because Macedonia means obviously the greek original region of Alexander kingdom. What is in the north is uninteresting, because it does not belong to the original Macedonia and has never been so. Pella, Thessaloniki, are part of the federate Greek state and this is what counts now.

Skopje is the name of this pseudo-state, and must be called as it, or Vardar if you prefer. End of the story.

To Peter .
"Qui vis paces para bellum"
To live in peace prepare for war
My old bloke this is the reason why Greece has taken provisional
measures Macedonia.

Slav Macedonians, both those who had participated in EAM but also many who saw action in the various collaborationist militias, fled across the border into the Republic of Macedonia, newly formed as part of socialist Yugoslavia.
During the occupation(Axis) many Slav Macedonians had claimed a Bulgarian identity and collaborated with the Bulgarian troops, many now claimed a [...]

Read the full comment Macedonian identity and looked up to Tito’s Yugoslavia; many among them joined an independence movement (NOF) and a unit known as the First Aegean Brigade. Both organizations were closely allied with Yugoslavia’s Communist authorities, who themselves maintained complex ties with the Greek Communists.
There was a growing overlap between the Slavophone linguistic identity the Slav Macedonian (or Macedonian) ethnic identity, and the propensity to side with the Communist Left in 1946-49. Although the overlap was not complete, with a significant minority of Slav Macedonians siding with the Greek government it is clear nonetheless that most Slav Macedonians either collaborated with or openly fought with the Greek Communist rebels between 1946 and 1949 — 85 percent according to one estimate
Many settlers, especially in mixed villages, supported the Greek views . even altough they hail been ardent supporters of the Liberal Party during the interwar period ,
The Greek Civil War in Macedonia was by no means an ethnic war, it took on a pronounced ethnic character. The Slav Macedonians made a significant. indeed a critical contribution to the communist side during the Civil War in Greece; they bore the brunt of the war, since they inhabited the regions of Macedonia where the heaviest fighting took place.
By 1944 the Communist Party “had become almost totally dependent on the relatively small, mainly Slavophone, populated areas it held in central and western Macedonia.” Importantly, however, the nature of the Slav Macedonians’ participation in the Greek Civil War (at least at the elite level) was nationalist rather than Communist. The Communists were convenient allies in a struggle that was supposed to lead to secession from Greece and a merger with the Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia.
For the NOF “it was primarily a national struggle, a battle for the national liberation of the Macedonians in Aegean Macedonia.” a matter of secession.
A EAM-NOF/SNOF directive.
The districts of KILKIS ,ALMOPIAS ,GIANNITSON ,EDESSA, ARIDHEAS,FORINAS AND KASTORIAS are assigned by EAM/ELAS to the custody of SNOF.
SNOF is authorized to extend it’s custody to other areas and also to southern districts as soon as it has taken full control over the above mentioned areas .
The leaders of SNOF and EAM will eventually decide the creation of an autonomous Macedonian State of soviet-like organization which will be set under the direct protection of soviet Russia.
In order to subsidy EAM-SNOF/NOF effort it is taken into consideration that the international brigade to be formed and eastablished in KAIMAKTCHALAN must be endorsed by full ammunition support .
The occupation troops (Bulgarian) which already have control over the region of Macedonia assumes the responsibility after the Germans have left as to remit the control of all urban areas to EAM>
All potentrial nationalist element created since the beginning of the occupation (Axis) should be eliminated by the occupation troops and the establishment of a Soviet type flag with reversed(Bulgarian) colors centered with a star should be considered
On 2 August 1944, the anniversary of the llinden Uprising, the Florina and Kastoria
Slavo-Macedonian battalion (known as the “Goce Battalion”) was established in the
village of Halara (Pozdivista) in the presence of representatives of the KKE, the
Communist Party of Yugoslav Macedonia , and the political delegate of the 9th ELAS
Division, Renos Mihaleas. The commander was Ilias “Goce” Dimakis and the political delegate Hristos Kokkinos.
Goce began systematically recruiting Slavophones in order to swell the battalion's
numbers from the original 400. At the same time, liaison officers from Yugoslav
Macedonia, notably Petre “Kocko” Bogdanov, were once again spreading propaganda about the right of the “Macedonian people” to self-determination and unification and demanding a GHQ. Having a somewhat hazy Leninist notion of the right to self-determination, Mihaleas tolerated these activities and had frequent clashes with the KKE's Macedonia Bureau, which later stripped him of his title. In a letter to Leonidas Stringos in August 1944, he wrote:
We have not spread the watchword of ethnic equality in the broadest, freest
sense. We have not spread and analysed the message of the Atlantic Charter, the
hard-won trophy of the people's struggle. Rather than being his homeland, striking
terror and confusion into the heart of capitalism and Fascism, Tito's Macedonia
has been a thorn in our side. The Cypriot hails Free Greece and the Atlantic
Charter and the Macedonian hails Tito and the Atlantic Charter. So, more broadly,
or rather more profoundly, than the 6th Plenary we shall have to show him
the close embrace of '21 and Ilinden, and only then will our watchword of “Ethnic equality today!” gleam in his eye21

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Pot and kettle, Julius, pot and kettle...

Now David haven't you heard of hypocrisy? You have on more than one occasion insulted people on this site, especially since the moderators have deleted some of your posts several times. If I remember correctly, you verbally molested a Ukrainian girl who lives in Macedonia Greece ;)

Well, if defeated by logic and scholarship, only the illiterate and half-educated turn to personal abuse.....

It all rather reminds me of Northern Ireland.....

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This comment has been removed by the moderator because it contained off-topic content

how about the Republic of David=Poustis?

"The largest single country now seems to be Australia, thanks to the Macedonian diaspora".

>>>Another crazy thing coming from your part: you are doing a misunderstanding I am afraid: Greeks are the first minority of Australia which always supports Greece, and on the contrary, in any way Skopje. Last time, the PM of Australia himself said that "Skopje is stealing the greek cultural and historical heritage and that Macedonia is exclusively Greek".


Australia does not recognize Skopje under its "stolen" constitutional name and shows this country with a very negative [...]

Read the full comment eye.

"Only a fool takes Wikipedia as his/her single source of information. You seem to fall into that category".


>>>Last time you said that wikipedia is a sure international reliable source...

David(Incognito) do get a life, we all know you have used wikipedia on more than one occasion.

Only a fool takes Wikipedia as his/her single source of information. You seem to fall into that category.

Greece was the largest single country investing in Macedonia some years ago (this is different from "largest single investor" - work it out !) but this is now no longer the case. The largest single country now seems to be Australia, thanks to the Macedonian diaspora.

It all rather proves Kathiremini's point......do you need the link to that too ?

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Sorry, Greek Macedoine Salade, you're simply wrong, as you often are about economics. Greece is NOT Macedonia's No 1 investor.

That position is taken by certain international hedge funds, the same as are now betting against the Euro in the hope of Greek bankruptcy. If so, they will pick up what Greek investments that there are in Macedonia at a bargain price.

"Kathimerini" said on Saturday 13 February that there are two sorts of Greeks in PASOK: those who are realistic about the present economic crisis, and those who live an a [...]

Read the full comment little world of their own and refuse to recognise economic reality.

Something tells me that you fall into the latter category.

To Incognito/Shemalena:

"The only thing in their favour is that, with backing like that, Macedonia will never go bankrupt, as is now threatened in Greece".

>>>Are you dreaming? Greece is Skopje's number one investor. If Greece plunges, Skopje will plunge too and suffer from severe starvation. So the damages will be collateral...

Sasha - you have a very good point in questioning Peter's wilder claims, but now and again he does speak some sense.

As he says, there were various names given to Greece before 1830-32 independence took place (the delay was because Turkey still occupied Athens !), and most of them bore no resemblance to "Ellas" or "Graecia" at all. Rumelia was one, Yunanistan another. "Arvanovlahia" was not a silly suggestion at the time.

"Macedonia" was certainly the name given under the Roman Empire from 146BC onwards to the current territory of that [...]

Read the full comment name, but later on under the Byzantines the name Macedonia shifted to Thrace instead, for obscure reasons lost in time.

Gruevski is simply an idiot who should never have become Prime Minister in the first place, though he is the tool of some very powerful and rich diaspora interests in Australia and the USA. The only thing in their favour is that, with backing like that, Macedonia will never go bankrupt, as is now threatened in Greece.

It has become quite clear that one of the major Gruevski projects has been to de-Slavitze our people. With the help of the anti-Hellenic antiquisationists and the much needed money from our diaspora our government is openly running anti-Slavic, anti-Hellenic campaigns. He himself (Gruevski) who has yet to answer the claims that his grandfather on his mothers side was a Macedonian of Greek ethnicity has highlighted his attitudes towards appeasing the diaspora while castigating many in our local communities. The concept of anti-Slavicism is only propelled by the lethargic response of many left wing Macedonians while a groundswell of nationalism [...]

Read the full comment continues to serve Gruevski's project of erecting ancient Greek speaking heroes in down-town Skopje while neglecting the all important revolutionary forefathers who created and cemented the identity we have today. There are many throughout Macedonia who disagree with Gruevski as recent polls show in regards to our name issue. If a referendum were held today the majority of our people would opt for a geographic qualifier whereas only 3 months ago they would not. Time is having an impact on our current political situation and it is possible that with the UN visit by Nimitz a compromise could surely be available. The old double name formula has run out of political steam, reality dictates that the economic situation in Macedonia can not live off remittances forever especially if the international banks decide to stop lending. Poverty in Macedonia has reached an all time high of 13% (some analysts claim as high as 20%) of our small population. In my hometown of Prilep we have 29% unemployment of which 17% are young people. The time of truth is knocking on our door.

Jesus christ Peter stop embarrasing our people. Where do you get this crap from e.g. before 1834 Greece was called Graico, just listen to yourself. As for that our nation Macedonia existed for centuries, implying longer than Greece and presumably every other Balkan nation you have some serious learning deficits. Obviously you have been learning your version of history from your diasporic counterpart R. Stefov the chief fabricator of our people's history. Just take a deep breathe Peter and listen closely, the antiquisationists of Macedonia and the diasp[ora are on their last legs. Recent polls have shown that our people [...]

Read the full comment are ready to compromise when Nimitz arrives putting Gruevski in a difficult situation. Gruevski's long-term project of anti-Slavicism and anti-Hellenicism will be put to the test, when and if, a referendum is put to our people. Your bombastic and naive views do little else but embarrass the very people you believe to protect. The Macedonian Youth are ready for realism and progress. There is no need to fabricate continually Peter. Macedonia is as old as our revolutionary forefathers who cemented our Slavic identity. Your assumptions of some type of ancient linkage is futile. Your identity Peter is as old as the nation state we inherited. You continue you cyclic argument that the Greek state was created in the early 1800s but so were we in the 1900s. Your distate for truth is compelling but you distrust is infantile, and you are what in your 60s-70s thats pretty sad. You should come to Macedonia more often I think your host country is letting you down.

Long Live Vasko Gligorov, the Macedonian Youth, and SDSM.

Peter, anyone on this site just reads your name and skips your post. You are the new meaning of the word barbarian as your posts are bar bar bar bar = blah blah blah

how about the Republic of DAVIDEINAIPOUTSIS?

Socrates,funy you used the word "Barbarians",yup,the Hellens called the Ancient Macedonians that.But, coming to the subject of name dispute.The Republic of Macedonia will remain for another centuries to come as it exists for cenyuries.Greeces existance started in 1834,before that Greece did not exist.But in 1834 you were called Graico,not Greece.There was a debate whether to call the newly established State as Alvanovlahia,but in 1858 that changed.Also a debate anout using the Albanian language.Check it out.Macedonia might be poor,but not as poor as Greece is today.As long as Greece pays the news media and politicians,Greece will never recover from the mess [...]

Read the full comment they are in.My personal advise is for Greece to recognise the Republic of Macedonia and recognise the Macedonian minority in Aegean Macedonia.Otherwise,the Greek polititians will never be able to rest.On the Albanians in Macedonia;they have the same rights as any citizen,their language is recognised,they have schools unlike Greeces fear of the Macedonian language.Remember,Greece recognised the Macedonian ethnicity and language back in 1925.

Albanians don't care about the name of Skopje. If Greece wants "Republic of Vardar" or "Republic of Barbarians" to continue to invest in Skopidjia, Albanians will push their other compatriots to accept it, or else it will be the implosion and the Great Albania will see the light, backed immediately by USA, Greece and Bulgaria.
And since Skopjidia is still not part of the EU, there are good chances it will happen soon.

Incognito,Vladimir and Olga,are we living in the same planet? First of all we are talking about a name that has existed for centuries before Greece came into play.In 1834 "Greece" should have been named Arvanovlahia,not Greece.Furtheremore,they were called Graico,it only changed when Prince Otto came to the thron,installed by the French insistance.First,you must learn your own history before you can comment about someone elses history or name.We are Christians,and Christened Macedonians,that cannot change! The Greek name is a mythological one,not real name.How can you call yourselves "Greek" when 66% of this State are Albanians?.

The news media report of Mr. Nimitz visit to Macedonia and Greece is an inspiring moment.It is understandable both countries have a red line.Greeces red line is to eradicate the Macedonian ethnicity,language, culture etc.Macedonias red line is to preserve its ethnicity,language and culture that is totaly different than the Greek.For starters,Greece never recognised "Northerne Greece" as Macedonia.But in 1982 they recognised that Yugoslavja is dissintergrating after Titos death,Greece started to use "Northerne Greece" as Macedonia, fearing that the Macedonian minority will be asking for same Human Rights as all Greek citizens.Greece doug into this mess by themselves.Same thing happened to [...]

Read the full comment the Republic of Macedonia with the Socio-Democrats accepting Greeces demmands on name issue.Who were these people who accepted this? It was ,Crvenkovski and Frckovski who sold Macedonia.These people have committed treason againts the Macedonian people,and recently,accepting money from Greece.No wonder why the American Macedonians did not meet Crvenkovski on his visit to Washington.The Macedonian people have a long memory.Greece cannot re-name us,we exist for centuries,and never lost our name. It is not acceptable for the UN or EU to demmand name change.We have a right to call ourselves that what we feel, Macedonians.

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How about Republika Ths Klepokratias (the Kleptocracy Republic) for Greece then, parakalw ?

how about Republic of Skopje? Republic of Paionia? Republic of Tito? Republic of Ethnokleptonia (Identity Stealers)

Republic of Northern Macedonia - a logical name that promotes the area as it is & its people thus it does not encroach on Greek , Bulgarian & Albanian Macedonians living in THEIR own countries peacefully.
What other sensible name can there be ???

That you're psycho and need help

In 2001 there was a small conflict in ROM. I would rather let them have the name they want, than have people killed because their country isn't stable(no NATO or EU membership). If the Albanians and ethnic Macedonians start killing each other, Greece would be partly to blame.

What is the point you are making ?

Ladies and Gentlemen,

I would like to point that the so-called Elena is actually David who is a British retiree and is upset that he cannot relive his days in the UN. Proof of this is if you go back to past articles in Sofia Echo with respect to Greek news and you will find the same writing style and also in many of them he talks about how Turkey could attack Greece in just the same detail and manner. David is also Koinos Nous and Epaminondas. In actual fact there are not many people posting [...]

Read the full comment on this site but rather it is this one person pretending to be different characters. It is only a matter of time the moderators will finally figure it out and do something about it.

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About the IMF you keep writing it but i still dont get it,probably your country will take another loan from IMF so its nice to have a good face so i understant.About Turkey LOL,i mean mercy!!Wake up to the reallity for god shake,for what war what attacks what a hell with some freaks from Fyrom like you internet has messed your brains for good!!Its like you are traped in the Matrix or something!!
A good idea for you Elena,Epaminonda,Koinos Nous or whatever you call your self from time to time would be to start taking your pills and [...]

Read the full comment this is not a joke,i mean just for a second see what you write!!Its unbeleivable what is happening inside the minds of some people,i wonder why they even let you free in the society!!Where do u leave in which parallel dimension Elepamikoinonou freak??Ask your self,what is happening to me is logical,go in the mirror and do it!!

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A third - and most regrettable - option would be for Turkey (which has already send a very high-level military reconaissance mission to FYR Macedonia) decides to attack on two fronts, as it did most successfully in Cyprus in 1974.

Front 1 is the Aegean Islands

Front 2 in FYR Macedonia, but using entirely Turkish aircraft and pilots, with some facilities in Camp Bondsteel.

Result - Partition of Greece. FYR Mac escapes relatively unharmed.

Show me how it can't happen....

[...]

Read the full comment

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Greek Macedoine Supreme de Cornichons -

You seem obsessed by a "big fat cheque" from the EU that will somehow convert Greece from an "oriental" economy into a modern "occidental" Western one (your words in quotes).

This will simply never happen. Firstly, it goes against the EU "State Aids" rules in the Treaty.

Secondly, no other member-state is remotely inclined to do it (nor is the Commission); indeed, Germany's words last Thursday at the Summit were scathing about even the possibility.

Thirdly,Papandreou (though a [...]

Read the full comment rather better politician than Greece deserves) was not mincing his words on his return from the Summit. He had worked hard, and he was a disappointed man. All politicans sometimes - just sometimes - speak the truth, especially when they are fatigued and 'plein de desespoir' after an onerous fortnight in Davos and Brussels with little to show for it.

Fourthly, at least FYR Macedonia admits quite freely that it is an "oriental" economy in some respects. Greek has tried to pretend that it isn't, and this week has conspicuously failed.

If you were the IMF, would you prefer the "honest man" or the "poseur" who pretended to be something that he was not ?

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This comment has been removed by the moderator because it contained off-topic content

Epaminonda

First of all when exastly Greece asked for money from anyone??I mean some clowns like you continue saying the same and the same but when did we said that we want money and from whom??Do u freak understant what bonds and loans is??This is something that noone gives you for free.If the bankers the stockers want to make something more and they use the easy target(Greece)to achieve their goal for biggest profit now thats another storie.Now i will ask you again.Do u actually compare the economic situation in Greece,with the one of Fyrom??Do u understant [...]

Read the full comment how diferent by any point of view our stantard of life is??Do u reallise that even the fact that you do this comparison in reallity you humiliate your self like some nationalists Fyromians who never went out their village??Is like comparing night and day.The day Greeces economy will reach the level of Fyroms will be the day we will say YES now we are banckrupted,doomed or whatever you freaks dream off.Until then be happy with the happy articles from the British media which its well know that they always enjoyed-liked the idea of Euro and European union and continue to expose the complex about Greece that is left in you people since the Yugoslavian times!In the end of the day you dont understant some simple things.Greek economys problem is not that the people dont have money or work,but that until now there was so much coraption so many people who didnt payed taxes so we reached this level.But what is this level anyway??I mean what are we talking about here??Its redicilus with you people and your dreams!!Btw just for the history(its something that you dont understant generally but give it a try!!)Fyrom since 1992 took 1,5 billion Euros from EU which mean that it took it from my pocket too.

Dear shemale Epaminondas/Elena: the problem is that the odd links and articles you provide are irrevelant and quite useless at the end, since what you are saying and their content are two distinct things. The least I could say is you probably suffer from severe myopia, or you interprete facts with an unrealistic/personal approach which is going too far from the initial content. But anyway, that is not the real matter of the talks.

You have to be reasonable with the fact that Greece will be a leader in the Balkans, a top modern economy and [...]

Read the full comment therefore will have every authority on Skopje the next week, since Skopje is not part of EU and NATO (and will probably never be...) Skopje will have to choose to drop out the Macedonia name or to go bankrupt and to be divised for good by its growing Albanian population. This is a cornelian dilemma, and I should remember you the recent civil wars were almost the final signal of Skopje's extinction. There is no alternative than to drop out the Macedonia name and to consider Greece, Skopje's first investor, like the one to save them. The Damocles sword is on the top of the head of Gourevvveski...

Oh dear, this is precisely the type of Hellencentric thinking that got Greece into its current economic mess !

I have given you below the link to the IMF site - try looking at it and actually r-e-a-d-i-n-g the words and figures. You will then see that FYR Macedonia comes out much better than Greece in IMF eyes.

Not my eyes, but those of the International Monetary Fund.

Read, Mark, Learn, and Inwardly Digest....(if you can that it !)

Alternatively, shout MOLON LABE and [...]

Read the full comment ignore all the evidence ! Clearly a perennial Hellenic trait, as German Chancellor Angela Merkel was overheard to observe in Brussels this week....no wonder she didn't give Greece any money !

To l'arriéré Epaminondas/Elena,

"the most healthy economy in the Balkans (according to the IMF) is currently - and surprisingly - FYR Macedonia !"

>>>This is the joke of the year, haha! Talking about Skopje, we cannot say the word "economy" is applicable te this pseudo-state. Buying giant statues instead of creating jobs is not what I can call a serious economy. Its government is taking care of the economic portfolio like some european countries did 200 years ago. I should even not mention in which directions the money (when it appears in [...]

Read the full comment this poor country) goes > most probably in the pockets of Gruevski and his muppets.

No this is really ridiculous to start to do comparison with a miserable country like Skopjaland, which has no knowledge of politics and economics, and on the top of that, of History...

Epaminonda or whatever nickname you will use next time:

Do u actually compare the economy of Greece with Fyrom or i missunderstood??What are u mental or something??LOL!!!Get your pills mate honestly!!

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No needs to be worried about the Macedonia case. I am pretty optimistic now that Skopje will even not be renamed as "Northern Macedonia", but as "Republic of Vardaska".

Why am I so optimistic? The EU will make Greece a top modern economy and do lot of investments the coming years. Greece will become the number one economy of the Balkans and therefore will get the supremacy of the markets.
So a simple embargo from Greece against FYROM could lead Skopje to be forced to drop out its territorial claims ambitions - that means [...]

Read the full comment the name "Macedonia".
So what Greece is doing is to just to wait a couple of years without to find a solution within the UN. The solution will be in fact found with economic blackmails from Greece to Skopje, which will have no other choice than to choose "Vardar" if it wants to survive as a country.

Pandito has a good point - what is disgraceful is that this petty dispute has been allowed to linger on for so long !

In any other domain of foreign policy, a "mediator" like Nimetz who has drawn a fat fee for 11 years with no tangible results to show for it would have been FIRED !

Sure, both parties are being equally intransigent, but the whole point of being an international mediator is to be able to cajole/persuade/bully/ threaten/incentivise/blackmail/coerce both parties into agreement and submission.

Look at [...]

Read the full comment Ashdown in Bosnia for a really good example of a mediator who earned his money, or General de Chastelain in Northern Ireland....

what a disgrace the E.U is!!! this is not a dispute, this is a problem within greece that needs to be settled.

FYROM should give up its false claims against Greece and find a name that is suitable for its country since they are a mixed race of Slavs, Albanians,and other.
History can not be change because of a small country, and eveyone should remember that Ancient Macedonians always claimed to have been Greek and not slavic.

I agree about the christening arguments.
But to distinguish between people who bear the same christian name we use surnames, and this is what is required from FYROM, a surname.
Further two people sharing the same name and even name and surname, but still unrelated, it doesn t necessary mean that one can rise claims on the family heritage of the other.
This is what exactly it is still asked from FYROM to accept.
Thus a surname and abandoning claims on allien heritage.
Whats wrong with that?
[...]

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If your arguments can be turned around to fit the other side's point of view, then they are FLAWED

There certainly seems to be an element of "CULTURAL IMPERIALISM" in the Greek position.....a bit like the Russians telling the Americans to re-name St.Petersburg, Florida. Or the British telling the Australians to re-name "New South Wales"....

Still, logic and the Greeks never did lie easily in the same bed together. Hopefully by the time Nimetz finally reports (and after eleven years he really should - talk about a Job For Life !) , Greece will be so far Down The Tubes economically that it won't matter any more !

The UN had no legal right to ask the Republic of Macedonia to negotiate its constitutional name with Greece.Everyone has the right to call itselves what they feel are.UN is a farcical organization serving only to the mightiest.There is no prescedance in the history of the world asking an independent nation to change its name.In the Christian religion we are Christened only once,and that name is for life,so is the name of the Republic of Macedonia.