Epaminondas,I have no idea if Greece is out of the international law or any other organization.This is not the first time Greece attempted same trick.Before,Greece asked for the Macedonian wine to be moved to a different booth,or furthere from the Greek.From the looks of it,Greece is sticking their nose in Macedonias affaires. This is contrary to international laws.I think if you click on the "Greece wants German markets to stop selling Macedonian wine"you might be able to get the whole story.If you want,I can past it for you.Have a nice day!

Peter - yes, of course you have a very godd point, but I'm sticking to the narrower issue of where Greece is COMPELETLY outside EU wine regime rules in requesting the Germans to ban the import of Macedonian-origin-labelled wines (I'm expressing this carefully !),
and anybody with any EU knowledge in Skopje could have the Greek "guts for garters" as a result.

If only....

Epaminondas,the title was "Greece wants German markets to stop selling Macedonian wine.There is no ilussion about the Greek request my friend.Greece does things like this all the time.I will give you three examples;First they want to the Phillines and asked the than President Corazon to not recognize Macedonias constitutional name,next,told Chile and threatend them of pulling out from a University,thirdly,they promissed 400 old tanks to the DR of Congo to rescend the recognition,fourthly,they went to Mexico,and last but not least,they asked President Obama to reverse the constitutional name of Macedonia.Obama did not accomodate. Do you know why? Macedonia is the [...]

Read the full comment fourth largest country per capita in Afganistan fighting.Where is Greece a NATO member?Have a nice day!

Peter -

Your report that:
<<On March 16th,2010 Greek Embassy in Berlin asked German supermarkets to withdraw from sale the Macedonian wine.Ambassador for Economy and Trade to Germany Alexander Mitrogos to Manfred Rot, the director of Nurnberg that sells wine from Macedonia >>

suggests that Greece is requesting Germany to break EU Wine Law (as contained in EU Council Regulation 479/2008, replacing earlier Regulation 1493/1999) as relating to wine imported from non EU-countries that conforms with the international OIV and WIPO rules covering Indication of Origin.

[...]

Read the full comment This lays down that it is the labelling rules of the exporting country that apply (if it is an OIV member, as Macedonia is), as long as they are in conformance with EU rules (as these are).

So Germany has no room to manoeuvre even at Bundes/Federal level, never mind at Lander/State level.

The Greek "ambassador" must have been either mad, or cheeky, or both, even to have asked for such a thing in Bayern (Bavaria) which covers Nuremburg / Nurnberg.

What "chutzpah" / quel orgueil !

Goce you also livin Makedonia. I understandin from Bulgari Goco polemistis he together with Makedones try finis the tourkis. My father also polemistis against tourki in 1904 and after in 1912. H Makedones good polemistes but also the Bulgaria people. O Goce havin good Makedones fili in Kastoria and Edessa and helpin many Makedones from no kill from Tourkis. My father speakin of Bulgaria polemistis name Sadanskis he also come to Makedonia help Makedones. This people good Bulgaria people but ta skopia and skopiani likin Peco want evything.yiasou apo Makedonia Goce.

Goce, Is there any other country in the world than what you call Macedonia you confused stupid man??

The Western World propaganda, discriminations, crimes, and violations against MACEDONIA AND THE MACEDONIAN NATION!

Read about the “Democratic”-dictators, racist-nazis, fascist, criminal/bandits, terrorist, barbaric, fanatics and corrupt Western Worlds anti Macedonia propaganda, and anti propaganda the Macedonian Organization VMRO-MNM and anti Mr. Ljupco Mircevski-Trepet propaganda.

Read about the Internal Macedonian Revolutionary Organization-Macedonia For The Macedonians (VMRO-MNM)!

VMRO-MNM is for United Macedonia and for United Macedonians Macedonia For The Macedonians.

PS. Before 1860, "Greece" ("Hellas") did not exist. Neither did any "Greek" ("Hellenism") nationality. Before 1913, [...]

Read the full comment no Serbian "Albanian" or "Bulgarian" nationality or country existed. Before the Second World War, no Montenegrin, Croatian, Bosnian or Slovenian nationality or country existed. All of this is old Macedonian territory. As evidence, there are ancient historian maps presented in book Macedonia For The Macedonians.

Yes Peter, I can see your frustration and agree with you that this is wrong. The problems we have lived with for the last decade or so have only been a series of learning curves and tests applied to both our peoples while our governments have been continually sidetracked by 18th century style patriotisms. The only way forward Peter is compromise, all of us. The Greeks need to put this behind them if they are to enter the new Balkan reality of fusion and socio-economic progress. None of us can afford to continue isolationist politics endorsed by petty nationalisms. Our [...]

Read the full comment Macedonian people have suffered politically but more importantly economically, poverty is at its worst in 45 years. There is a time for everything but now it is time to move forward and get out of this status quo.

Long lIve the Macedonia Youth & SDSM

Greece is desperate over Macedonias name. The headline is "Greece wants German markets to stop selling Macedonian wine".On March 16th,2010 Greek Embassy in Berlin asked German supermarkets to withdraw from sale the Macedonian wine.Ambassador for Economy and Trade to Germany Alexander Mitrogos to Manfred Rot, the director of Nurnberg that sells wine from Macedonia. "It is evident that the problem is not in the possible delusion of the foreign wine lovers, but it is purely political and provides a distinct picture of what Greece means by the term "compromise" in the name issue."This is why Macedonia should go directly to [...]

Read the full comment the UN General Assembly and put the name to a vote.Greece is interfeering in Macedonias affairs,and the EU must put a stop to this absurd behaviour childish Greece.

Peter your Bulgarian ancestry will follow you til the day you die and even then all will remember you as Peter the Bulgarian from Lerin. I travel to Lerin every two weeks as part of our field research for our uni in Skopje and funny enough the ones who claim to be Slavic speaking non-Bulgarians are the ones like yourself caught up in the Vinozhito cheats who go round the country side trying to brainwash people that they are different to everyone else. But they get cursed everywhere they go only some of the community people accept them because they [...]

Read the full comment give them money. You should ask yourself why (and without blaming the Greeks this time) over ten years now Vinozhito not once had more than a few thousand votes out of such a large community. Our government has been involved in this for years although they keep saying that Skopje does not fund them for fear of the Greek's retaliation. I met Voskopoulos once and his arrogance far outweighed his intelligence, the man is a walking disgrace he's the richest man in the area and is in Skopje more than he is in Greece. This man was chosen for this position for one thing to deceive our people.

Long Live the Macedonian Youth & SDSM

Sasha,I wont bother with you anymore.Have a nice day!

Forget it Peter you were born by your Bulgarian mother and there is no escaping that. It doesn't matter how much she screamed at your birth for she passed onto you the genes of Gotse Delchev and not AL,VEliki. So fabricate today all you want but when our country celebrates its membership in the EU with its new name we will be celebrating with it. Your narrow minded stupidity is that you think that if we are called northern Macedonians it will somehow compromise our ID. News flash Peter and the rest of your uneducated lot we will always be [...]

Read the full comment called Macedonians regardless of what they put in front.

Long Live the Macedonian Youth & SDSM

Sasha and Valeri,your Bulgarian rant will get you nowhere. Your comments showing your mentality wraped around myth.Since you are Bulgarians,are you called by Slavo-Bulgarians?.It seams to me, you cannot tell the difference between nationality and the difference of language.You and your kind will never succeed to destroy Macedonia.Da zhivee Makedonja!

Peter you are about as much Slavic as the moon is round. Our Macedonian identity is a nationality Peter, created formally in 1991 and informally in 1943. Before that we were all Macedonians of different backgrounds Bulgarians, Greeks, Vlachs, Romas, Albanians, and Turks. Your Slavic roots are no less yours just as Germans are both ethnic Germans and have a language that is called German or the French, Greeks, etc. Your Slavic ethnicity is also a language. You should go to a university in your old disgruntled age and learn the sociological-anthropological socio-cultural constructs of regional identities. The Slavs who [...]

Read the full comment arrived as Slaves of the Avars are through all our Slavic speaking peoples so you can't deny your Slavic roots in exchange for Greek ones just because you like the Greek Al.Veliki more than you like our Slavic forefather Gotse Delchev. Your teacher Stefov is a well know hater of anything Slavic as he himself constantly writes but that does not exclude him from his Slavic heritage no-matter how much he wants to be a descendent of the Greek Al.Veliki.
Grow wise in your old age Peter and not let your vanity guide your life as it does to Stefov.

Long Live the Macedonian Youth, SDSM, BMPO, and the MPO.

Yeah Peter the name does exist but it has nothing to do with the current occupants of the land.
Your language is Slavic, your culture is Bulgarian, your religion is Christian - you are not Macedonian.
Tell me, what then makes the Turks different from the Byzantines?
Only their language, culture and religion is different, the rest is certainly Byzantine...
What rest?
The land they live on?

Sasha, there is no such thing as slavic ethnicity. The only thing that is slavic is the language.It shows how much you know,but I think,your comments are very, very uneducated in historical terms or intelectualy.Please dont embarass yourself any more.Macedonias name exists for centuries,and the people that live there are Macedonians.

Peter you are a very silly man. First you say that we are not a Slavic etnicity then you try to connect us with the ancients. Your circulatory arguments are hollow. Who cares if modern Greeks are connected to the ancient ones. The issue is that the ancient Greek speaking Macedonians were not our forefathers as you imply. Your Slavic ethnicity is at the core of who you are and believe me whether you don't consider yourself Bulgarian is beside the point, the truth is your mother gave birth to you as a Bulgarian which you later decided to leave [...]

Read the full comment and steal your neighbours ID. Whatever your views on this we are all Macedonians the difference is you think you stem from the Greek tribe of Al.Veliki while we think we stem from our revolutionary forefathers who by the way, nowhere in all their documents mention a connection to the ancients. You pretend to be something your not, and there is no scholarly consensus that modern Slavic speaking Macedonians are affiliated to the ancient Greek speaking Macedonians. Soon you will have to live with your real history once our issues are solved within the EU and then you will have to explain why you and many in the diaspora have lied, cheated and stolen an ID which had never belonged to them. We as Macedonians live up to our identity as proud Slavs who should never want to belittle our forefathers as you do.

Long Live the Macedonian Youth & SDSM

Sasha,it looks like you cannot distinguish the difference.We all speak slavic language,but Greece always uses the Slavo-Macedonian,they never use Slavo-Bulgarian or as I said previously. Now, the reason Greeks are using this is to refuse to admmit we are not Greek but Macedonians. By using the slavo Macedonians is to fabricate the history my friend by saying the Macedonians are slavs by ethnicity,do you get it? This supports thei absurd claims that they and only they have a claim to ancient Macedonia,in other words,ancient Macedonians were Greek. They themselves are not even connected to ancient Hellens let along the ancient [...]

Read the full comment Macedonians. I hope,I explained it to you so you can understand it. If you are in fact Macedonian,we would have no argument over this issue, but I think,you are Bulgarian and not Macedonian.If I knew you are Bulgarian I would treat you differently. You see, we as people do things as many others do.This is why we have spys who also turne on their own people like yourself, and I named some on this site who are most of them from the SDSM.After all this, I think Greece will come to its senses and accept the Republic of Macedonia as well will recognize the Macedonian minority.Dobar ti den!

Peter why should they be called Russian-Slavs etc., it doesn't make sense. We are all ethnic Slavs so why would you give them a qualifier. Just as modern Macedonians are ethnic Slavs, Greeks, Vlachs, Roma so too were ancient Macedonians made up of ethnic Greeks, Illyrians (albanians), and Thracians. You continue to repeat yourself forever only giving us Stefovs simple version of our past. Please Peter strive for originality and remember so many young Macedonians have refuted your mental take on our history. This is why you continue to blames the Greeks, SDSM and veeryone else except yourself for your [...]

Read the full comment shortcomings. This is why you are in a foreign land fabricating your ID and we remain true to our Macedonia and fight for the real Macedonian history.
Long Live the Macedonian Youth & SDSM

Sasha,as I have told you on numerouse occassions, you are wearing the same shoes as Georgievski.You seam to complaine about Macedonia,why dont you move to Bulgaria?.You talk about being slavs, well,are the Poles, Serbians, Bulgarians,Slovakians,Russians slavs?,if so,why are they not called "slavo-Bulgarians,slavo-Serbians,slavo Poles?.You dont seam to understand one very importent issue,and that is;we all speak slavic languages.Each country calls itselves as Macedonian,Polish,Serbian,Russian etc.If you cannot distinguish the difference,than you are not educated enough to make that difference. Here is something for you to chew while conteplating your answer.France and Germany called Greece "our spoiled dhild"and rightfully so, it was France [...]

Read the full comment and Germany who gave birth to the country, but things changed somewhat after Bucharest. Athens in order to protect its bixarre myth for purity decided to block Macedonia from NATO, thus making fool out of the USA and their geopolitical plans. Athens did not possess the wits to realize their move made NATO extrimly weak in the eyes of the Chines and Russians. When one silly state can veto twenty some in major decisions, that gave Russia and China more satisfaction as this weakened the NATO and EU. I said it before, Greeces 99.9% purity is a myth and a political decission not to veto Macedonias entry into the NATO.Just look how much effort and money they spent on propaganda againts the Republic of Macedonia and the indigenouse Macedonians in Aegean Macedonia. All this absurd claims by the Greek politicians that we are Greeks,as well Bulgarias claims that we are Bulgarians.Dont you stop and think,we cannot be neither because we are different-we are Macedonians by ethnicity?.Are you not awear,Bulgaria was the first nation to recognise the Republic of Macedonia by than president Zhelev,next was Turkey and Russia, today there are over 127 nations who have recognised the constitutional name of Macedonia.Our neighbor to the south does not in order to hold onto our history and to preserve their absurd purity that is none existant in the Balkan region. Today, the countries that made Greece are turning their backs to Greece because Greece is the most irresponsible state in Europe. Greek politisians cared more about their re-election to high posts and to succeed they resorted to make Macedonia a football.Prime Minister after Prime Minister of Greece have been engaged in destroying the Macedonian people within its borders and outside.You brag about your party that has sold the Macedonian people for over 16 years and done nothing about preserving our Macedonian identity.The SDSM was under Greeces payroll,and you are supporting them,bravo.When Crvenkovski comes out and says "I support our identity and our nation, I will be more than happy to support him,but untill than I cannot.It reminds me of the black garbage bags.As for me,I am Macedonian ethnic as my great,greatparents were.I have no connection to the Greeks nor the Bulgarians or Serbians. My maternal grand father in 1903 sold his property and returned to Macedonia to fight the Ottomans, the Ilinden uprising.This is my connection,unlike Crvenkovski and Frckovski and Sekerinska as well as A1 TV station owners.Sasha, have a nice day!

Peter your home is where you left it, the only differnece is you sold out your neighbours and as such, no-one wants you back. My job is excellent in Macedonia I get to travel throughout the region on field surveys of our peoples demographics. Your home as you call it, was betrayed by people like you who are now living in the diaspora crying about your losses but not accepting the fact that the countless other Macedonians living in Greece whether they are Bulgarian speaking or Greek speaking are grateful that the traitors, liars, and thieves of other peoples historical [...]

Read the full comment narratives stay away. Also remember, that regardless of which way the name issue develops Peter, you for one and many others like you in the diaspora will never, ever, step foot in Greece again. My work just brought me back from there (Kostur) last week and not surprisingly the majority of Slavic speaking Macedonians still claim Bulgarian roots. There is not much good feeling about the diaspora communites who are trying to hijack political issues which create tension back at home. Your illusions of your fabricated ID remain with you and whether you support Gruevski is beside the point. The real issue is that our field reseach reveals that many Slavic speaking Macedonians do regard themselves as ethnic Slavs and not as descendents of ancient Greeks as yourself Peter. The world is kind to some while tormenting to others. While you live in your tormented world spare a thought for our kind people in regional Macedonia who unlike you Peter, are proud of their Slavic roots and find no need to steal their neighbours ID.

Long Live the Macedonian Youth & SDSM.

Sasha,I was taken out of my birth place, and that is Aegean Macedonia.But since we do have one part of Macedonia free from external domination, I am proud. I cannot returne to my birth place because of the Greek anti-Macedonian laws. Since you are a sold0out soul to Bulgerianism,than move as I said to you with Georgievski and if he wins a mayoral race in Bulgaria he might give you a job.Here is what I feel; I am Macedonian,will support any President and Prime Minister regardles of their political stand,as long as they fight for our peoples ethnicity. So far, [...]

Read the full comment Crvenkovski, Frckovski can go to hell for working againts our people by supporting the Greek side.Do you get it?.The problem between Greece and Macedonia is totally political.The greeks are using this for their political life,not for the Greek peoples interests.Only God knows, how much of Euros they have spent on propaganda againts the Republic of Macedonia and the Macedonian minority just to use this issue like a football in politics for their own political life.

Sorry - Macedonian Patriot - it rather helps if you get your facts right.

Greece has not been "independent since 1860" - it was actually independent in 1829-32 (the delay being caused by the time it took the Turkish occupation forces to leave Athens.)

This comment has been removed by the moderator because it contained off-topic content

Why should I leave my home like you, who sold out your Bulgarian people to your neighbourhood cheats. Macedonia is for our Macedonian people and while your disgruntled lot live elsewhere we are thankful, and even lucky for that. Your fabricated antiquisation ID will soon be a thing of the past. Just as Stefov is being pursued for his lying, cheating and stealing other peoples identity, history and culture you Peter are the type of people who like sheep eat all the bull Stefov creates without question. Yes Peter we are very lucky in Macedonia that liars in our diaspora [...]

Read the full comment do live outside of this beautiful free country, free of the diaspora and free of more antiquisationists.

Long Live Vasko Gligorov, the Macedonian Youth & SDSM

Sasha,your idiotic comments do not deserve furthere comment.But, I suggest to you this, join Georgievski and get out of Macedonia like he did.

Peter your Bulgarian identity will go everywhere you live. Remember you were born from your Bulgarian mothers womb and like myself your Macedonian identity belongs to our Slavic ethncity not the Greek like AL.Veliki. As for Stefov, his research is non-evidence based which puts it in a category of sensationalist jargon. He is the same person who is trying to de-Slavitise our people by complaining that he gets offended when Macedonian Greeks, Bulgarians, or even his Canadian neighbours call him a Slav. This is his complex but as for you Peter if you had more courage you would face the [...]

Read the full comment truth and stop hiding behind your historical lies. Our Macedonian nation was not created by liers, cheats and thieves of other peoples history, like yourself and Stefov but by our revolutionary forefathers of IMORO.

Long Live the Macedonian Youth & SDSM

Sasha, at least Stefov has done a great deal of research,unlike you.As far as your claim of me being a Bulgarian,I say to you; you are wearing horses blindes. I am proud Macedonian! As for the talks, I would say; stop the talks right now and tell Greece to change their name to Arvanovlahia.

This comment has been removed by the moderator because it contained off-topic content

Peter as a Bulgarian product from your mother's womb you must remember that even in death you will be buried in that famous Bulgarian rite of the orthodox church. It doesn't take a genious to work out that your level of education has been coloured by your diasporic nationalism. Anyone who would cut and paste Stefov is surely in dire need of an identity. Stefov hates everything Slavic yet his own family in Greece disown the idiot for his refusal of his Slavic ethnicity. Stefov has become fat on his peoples money while he sits and condones cheating, lying, and [...]

Read the full comment stealing other peoples histories. Wake up to yourself Peter you don't need 17 year old Macedonian youths to tell you WHO you are not, and that is a fabrication of some type of ancient descendent of the Greek Al.Veliki. Be proud of your Slavic ethnicity and remember your mothers Bulgarian roots were passed onto you even if you were born in the Greek prvince of Macedonia.

Long Live the Macedonian Youth & SDSM.

Sasha,stop with your stupidity my friend.I can see you are shooting your mouth too wide that makes no sense.I rather die than be a Greek or Bulgarian. You yourself dont know who you are.I did not wanted to get personal,but your comments do require a response.Had you knew anything about history I would correspond with you,obviously you know nothing.Good day!

Whats the matter Peter has Stefov stopped writing so you can steal some more. Your obvious confusion has given you a split ID. One is of your Bulgarian roots given to you from your mothers womb and one is from the fabrications of antiquity which you and other Diaspora nationalists have created to steal the Greeks' rightful ancient heritage. Your anti-Slavic stance (like Stefov who refuses do be acknowledged as a Slavic person) is ABSURD. You will remain of Slavic ethnicity to the day you die so keep your fantasy for a while longer.

Sasha,it is no use to comment on your absurd comment. Dobra Noc or Dobro Utro!

Scipio Africanus,you asked me to provid you with the discovery of the "slab."First I would like to say to you this;I believe if the talks between Greece and Macedonia continue,Greeces concerns allready have been met by Macedonia. The Macedonians cannot change the constitutional name. In the matter of the slab; "Inscription from the time of Alexander the Great unearthed in Afganistan.Archeological excavations in the ancient region of Baktria in Afganistan have revealed a unique marble slab with the image of Alexander the Great and a passage of an inscription. The slab representa an ancient king on a horse heading Macedonian [...]

Read the full comment cavalry and Macedonian phalanx at the background. An inscription written in an ancient language different from ancient Greek or ancient Egyptian languages, on which were written a large part of the stone inscription at the time of Alexander, is placed from the right of the military arena.According to other assumptions,the words of Alexander of Macedonia are written in baktriyan language protolanguage of todays Bulgarians. According to archaelogist from the museum in the town of Balh, the baktiyan language is a language, which had been spoken by the soldiers of Alexander of Macedonia, which had unified language and dialects in his multinational army. Found fragments of ancient Greek inscription at the same site, suggest a possible parallel text." On the Bulgarian language being used is utterly false.There was no Bulgarian language 2400 years ago. This is evidance that some historians are fabricating history to suit their clients of Greece and Bulgaria.This story was reported on April 2nd, 2009 in a paper "Sports PR News."Since you wanted it, I believe you would like to boast that it says written in Bulgarian, but be carefull what that means.I am dlad I was able to posted for you to see. Dobra Noc!

Your Bulgarian background does not change the fact no matter where you live Peter. As for my Macedonian background you must remember that you live in a foreign country cheating, lying and stealing other peoples identity. Whats the matter got no more cutting and pasting? Macedonia 4 the REAL Macedonians who are the hallmark of SDSM

Sasha, once more,you talk nonsense. First of all you are not Macedonian.In Polish,you are "podrzegacz". It means disturbing the facts,or to make claims not true.Write sometimes on your Bulgarianism.What Gruevski has accomplished to date, Crvenkovski could not accomplish in 15 years.Gruevski has met the Greek PM on the question of our name. Crvenkovski met the Greeks fo a payout to work againts his own people,and that is a fact. Good day!

yes I know Peter the truth always hurts. Nevermind your fabricated world doesn't harm us here in Macedonia as long as you keep fabricating in your host country. Don't forget your Bulgarian heritage has been passed down to you through your mother's womb.

Macedonia 4 the Macedonians.
Keep up the good work SDSM

Sasha, you talk nonsens.

Peter, you don't need to worry about your real Bulgarian identity for it was given to you by your mother and father who in turn are descended from our Bulgarian forefathers Delchev, Sarafov, Karev, etc. Now in regards to negotiations you are probably not receiving the same news we are in Macedonia. Your hero Gruevski is pondering changing our name (finally) to Northern Macedonians (Makedonski as it will appear) so as you can see all of your hard diaspora work and money could not corrupt the one person you had so much faith in. I have to admit the Macedonian [...]

Read the full comment Youth under the umbrella of the SDSM throughout the University campuses held many ongoing rallies against the naive manner our government was handling the name issue. Firstly, the one weapon our government had which was first tabled by Nimetz in early 2004 was the double name formula which has since lost its appeal as more Macedonians have realised that it was nothing more than a ploy to gain more time. Secondly, the pendulum has swung in the direction of the masses who have realised that regardless of whoever is in power their self-serving interests have left the country more poverty stricken, an infrastructure that is at breaking point, and one of the worst socio-economic countries in the world. Your infantile views of preserving our name which we will never lose anyway has brought our country to the brink of despair. You live in the past Peter but it is what we do for our future to sustain our Macedonian Youth that is more important than any Greek speaking Al.Veliki that you are trying to usurp. Wake up to yourself Peter, the time has come when we will enter the EU with our proud name of Northern Macedonia without losing our dignity or our modern history. Stop your illusions that we are an ancient people and be proud of your real ancestors whose Slavic ethnicity runs in your veins. Yes you are right you are not Greek but you are certainly like the rest of us, and that is of Slavic roots stemming from our Bulgarian forefathers Delchev & co.

Long Live Vasko Gligorov, the Macedonian Youth, & SDSM

Peter,
Then you are nothing but a Greek Macedonian as I am living in Canada, you are registered as an ethnic Macedonian? Canada will recognise any one who votes. As for Greece stealing history that is real funny as for the talks next week nothing will ever change you will be called whatever we and the EU want live with it.

"Peter"my pessport says born in Greece.In our census of the country I live,I am registered as ethnic Macedonian,so are my children.My second country has recognised the constitutional name of Macedonia. I am happy! My second country recognises all minorities,not like in Bulgaria and Greece,and that is why this country is strong.We are multicultural State.What are people afraid from recognizing the Macedonian minority in your countries?.You have stolen the Macedonian history,thats why you are afraid. Lets see what happens with the talks next week.

"Peter"my pessport says born in Greece.In our census of the country I live,I am registered as ethnic Macedonian,so are my children.My second country has recognised the constitutional name of Macedonia. I am happy! My second country recognises all minorities,not like in Bulgaria and Greece,and that is why this country is strong.We are multicultural State.What are people afraid from recognizing the Macedonian minority in your countries?.You have stolen the Macedonian history,thats why you are afraid. Lets see what happens with the talks next week.

To Peter. I am Macedonian by ethnicity; I am NOT Bulgarian nor-Greek.
You are full of you know what. So then where were you born what part of Macedonia what does your passport say?

Sasha, I am Macedonian not Bulgarian. Please get it through your head,there is a big difference between Macedonians and Bulgarians. Our ancestries came to this area from different areas.Now then, lets talk on the name issue and leave the ethnicity seperate. Bulgaria under the Presidency of Zhelev recognised the Republic of Macedonia,Bulgaria was the first nation to do that,and you are trying to put wool over my eyes,or the contributors on this site,which is it?.Macedonia does not need to talk with Greece on its identity. You know,the UN had no mandate to do this. Article 1 is specific on this [...]

Read the full comment issue,read it you will understand.Greece considers the Aegean Macedonia as a province,the Republic of Macedonia is an independent State.Once more,Greeces problem is not the name,it is the recognition of the Macedoniian minority.You Bulgarians who are in Macedonia are screaming for your rights,what about the Macedonians in (Pirin Macedonia)? Have you looked at their problems? The EU already told Bulgaria to allow the Macedonians to freely organise and recognise the Omo Ilinden.Same has to happen in Greece with Vino Zhito (Ouranio Toxo).In Greece for the EU elections Greece refused to deliver the election material even do they paid the Post Office.Talk about democracy in Bulgaria and Greece.My last comment to you is this; I am Macedonian by ethnicity, I am NOT Bulgarian nor-Greek.

Thats good that it stands Peter, for it reveals that as one good Bulgarian to another our history is separated only by your unfortunate upbringing and of course of the lack of a good, proper education. Remember Peter that you should be proud of your Bulgarian ancestry for as Macedonians our forefathers (Delchev, Karev, Sarafov, Alexandrov, etc.) praised their Bulgarian roots. I knew you would finally accept your Bulgarian heritage in your old age. Good luck in the diaspora and don't forget to mention to your neighbours of your proud Slavic ethnicity. Why would you anyway want to be part [...]

Read the full comment of the Greek Al.Veliki bloodline if you knew of your own proud Bulgarian heritage, this is what continues to dumbfound many of us in Macedonia.

Long Live the macedonian Youth & SDSM

Sasha,my comment below yours stands.Have a nice day dreamer.

You are still wrong Peter in the Greek province of Macedonia you (and my great uncle) are among Bulgarians with the exception of a few confused souls like yourself who consider themselves descendents of the Greek Al.Veliki bloodline. The ethnological studies over the years conducted by various universities are all in agreement that the vast majority of Slavic speaking Macedonians in the Greek province of Macedonia claim Bulgarian origins. There are those who claim Yugoslav connections but in reality it is politically motivated than ethnologically. I am probably more Macedonian than you will ever be Peter because our people know [...]

Read the full comment where they came from e.g. Gotse Delchev & co., and that we still live in Macedonia but where do you live , Ahh thats right in the diaspora. Yes that I have Bulgarian blood doesn't change the fact that our Macedonian heritage is intricately entwined. Your confusion about who you are is typical of people in the diaspora who have years to connect to the real Macedonians back home. Soon there will be a new future for our people and with it the truth of our historical narrative.

Sasha,first of all you are Bulgarian,no argument there.Why dont you stick to the subject on this site but always plugging in the Bulgarianism? The Greek-Macedonian talks will continue for the time being.Most Macedonians like my self think that Macedonia should stop the talks and bring this issue to the UN.Furthere, the UN has no mandate to imposse name talks.On your comment about ROM,you are not reading my comment right.I am talking about the Aegean Macedonia.Well,I can tell you one thing,the Greek army police in my village used to call us Bulgarians when we spoke Macedonian.Today, Greece calls us the same,because [...]

Read the full comment they do not want to recognise our mother tonque.For me is as simple as that.You are acting same as the Greeks, I have nothing else to say to you because you are biased.The talks will continue for a while yet,but wait and you will see once the ICJ starts.

You are wrong Peter the Greeks have always called Macedonia (not ROM) a northern Greek Province as far as my research shows. Also your (and mine) Bulgarian language has always been accepted in the Macedonian province. According to the Greek archives in Solun a Slav minority has always been accepted acknowledging its Bulgarian character. Soon we will have a new name this must disappoint you Peter but the future is for the Youth not the wasted. Gruevski has finally mentioned on Nimitz's upcoming visit that he is ready to compromise. How long can we go on Macedonia has been in [...]

Read the full comment an economic crisis for the last 20 years we need investments, infrastructure, and new capital injections. Your hatred of Greeks, Bulgarians and other anti-antiquisationist Macedonians will soon be a thing of the past when we finally move into a new era with our Northern Macedonian identity.

Long Live Vasko Gligorov, the Macedonian Youth, and SDSM

ok ok take pills and go nani

Why Greece asked Macedonia to pull out of the ICJ? Greece has lost its own confidance. They know very well that Macedonia is on the right track,also the question of the Macedonian minority will come out at the Haque Court of Justice.

On the issue of name talks,the UN has no mandate to impose these talks. Macedonia should present itself at the UN Grneral Assembly and ask for a vote on the name. Greece cannot stop an independent Nation to change its constitutional name just because Greece has a province called"Macedonia". A Nation and a province is totally two different things.Furthere,Greece started to call "Northerne Greece, Macedonia" only when Greece found out that Yugoslavija was being dissintergating.The word Macedonia was forbiden in Greece before than. Greece is under pressure from the EU and NATO as well as the Macedonian minority in Greece. [...]

Read the full comment Papandreous government cannot survive without the Nazi-LAOS party who interrapted the presentation of the Greek-Macedonian dictionary in Athens.Dont forget, the Greek church tells the government what to do.Greece is the only state that has no separation of Church-Government.

Thanks for those clear explanations and sorry for all the troubles.

It is not in the acceptable use policy at this time, but we prefer to see our forum as a medium for discussion, rather than a place for spamming links, which has become an issue with some topics.

Since we do not have the time to go through every link posted, comments containing links run the risk of being deleted as they come to our attention.

Note that this does not mean that you should feel free to copy content in your posts instead - doing so from another news source is [...]

Read the full comment copyright infringement. Any and all posts identified to contain content copy-pasted from other news sources will be summarily deleted.

State your points (brevity is appreciated), but do so without having to rely extensively on hotlinking or excessive copy-paste to do so.

Thank you

My post is deleted again? For which reason? Are you ok today?

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Well there, GMS, I entirely agree with you. A better performer than Gruevski (whose idea of diplomacy is that of a punch-drunk boxer), together with Papandreou, might well produce a mutually satisfactory solution fairly quickly.

"I am less sure that Gruevski would make an ideal Prime Minister for the new "Greater Greece-Macedonia Republic", however, though at least he would be better than Karamanlis was. Papandreou would be a better choice".

>>>At least, we agree on this point: I am not part of PASOK or NEA DIMOKRATIA, but Karamanlis was indeed terrible, one of the worst PM ever seen in Greece. He was too much attentist and weak on the foreign policy - will avoid to speak about he handled the economic matter... Probably the last opportunities about Cyprus and Turkey's EU [...]

Read the full comment aspirations have been lost for stupidities... And he was also too rigid about the Macedonia issue.

On the other hand, I think a new PM in FYROM with a diplomatic personality such as Papandreou could produce together a breakthrough for the name dispute.

Actually, Greek Mac, on reflection, merging the two countries would be a sound economic idea, and would completely solve the Name Dispute for once and for all........

I am less sure that Gruevski would make an ideal Prime Minister for the new "Greater Greece-Macedonia Republic", however, though at least he would be better than Karamanlis was. Papandreou would be a better choice.

Thanks, Greek Mac, that's helpful. Since 1 Nov 10 (1.11.10 - nearly a palindrome !) is also the date pencilled in by Brussels for the possible re-introduction of the drachma into Greece, that indicates real joined-up thinking.

Maybe, given the size of Greek investment in Macedonia that you claim, the two countries should merge their currencies into a New Drachma (or a New Dinar, I suppose)? Depends on which of the countries has the higher Standard & Poor rating, I imagine.

Look forward meanwhile to further events on "S.S. Titanic", as Greek [...]

Read the full comment Minister of Finance Papaconstantinou has rather unfortunately re-christened his country in the world's media !

When does it hit the iceberg ? And how many survivors will there be ? (Apart from you, that is !)

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To Peter:

"GMS,read the following; Poll:Germans want Greece kicked out of Eurozone.More yhan two-thirds oppose handing Athens billions of euros in credit. The poll also showed 67% of Germans did not want Germany and other EU states to give billions of euros in credit to Greece. Michael Fuchs, deputy head of Merkels conservatives in parliament told Welt am Sonutag newspaper. "I cant explain to people on unemployment benefit that they wont get a cent more but Greeks can draw a pension at 63. " Germanys retirement age is at 67 from 65.Greece should continue with the [...]

Read the full comment talks,but must agree,the name is a name".

>>>You are fully right. I think this is quite obvious that Germans and other countries do not want to give any money from their pockets for Greece or Spain and Portugal in the near future. But what politics and people think are two different things. It is in the interest of Germany, as a whole nation and one of the top-heads of the EU to support Greece in those difficult times.
Germany does not help Greece for Greece, but for the image of a unified EU and for the stability of the Eurozone.

Peter
<<<Mitsotakis admitted in his inquiry on how they paid millions of dollars to the news media and to Crvenkovskis friends.These are not my words,they came from the mouth of former PM Mitsotakis in Athens.>>>
A Former PM "admiting" crap where and when this fiction incident occur please name the source of your statement.
I see that you have no control over what you are uttering do a big favor to yourself and to all in the site and quit posting
Don't forget man
The sun rises in the East [...]

Read the full comment and sets in the West!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Sasha,Mitsotakis admitted in his inquiry on how they paid millions of dollars to the news media and to Crvenkovskis friends.These are not my words,they came from the mouth of former PM Mitsotakis in Athens.

GMS,read the following; Poll:Germans want Greece kicked out of Eurozone.More yhan two-thirds oppose handing Athens billions of euros in credit. The poll also showed 67% of Germans did not want Germany and other EU states to give billions of euros in credit to Greece. Michael Fuchs, deputy head of Merkels conservatives in parliament told Welt am Sonutag newspaper. "I cant explain to people on unemployment benefit that they wont get a cent more but Greeks can draw a pension at 63. " Germanys retirement age is at 67 from 65.Greece should continue with the talks,but must agree,the name is a [...]

Read the full comment name.

Peter you should take a deep breathe and stop constantly repeating yourself. These corruption scandals are purposely fed to the naive village idiots whose votes are assured to Gruevski. The only reason why your views are tolerated Peter is because we can understand the lack of education you have. Here a 17 year old Macedonian is trying to teach you that your whole concept of your fabricated identity is flawed for the very reason you stated below. Ofcourse the Russians, Serbs etc., don't need to place a prefix to their Slavic ethnonym because they accept their Slavic ethnicity. As for [...]

Read the full comment us we are a regional identity made up of a Slavic, Greek, Albanian, Vlach ethnicities. For example, we are like the Swiss who are ethnically French, Germans, Italians, or the Belgians who are ethnically French and Flemish, or Luxembourg, ethnically French, German, Flemish or differently the Austrians who are ethnically German. You see Peter Slavic is not just a language it IS ALSO a ethnic denominator. Our people speak Slavic but your antiquisationists are trying to claim that we are always something other for they try to associate us with the ancient Greek speaking Macedonians. The person responsilbe for these anti-Slavic views is youre diaspora compatriot the master imbecile Risto Stefov who seems to be under the view that we are descendent from ancient Greek speaking Macedonians. You seem to disregard Gruevski's Greek ancestry because you dissaprove of everything Greek and Bulgarian. I wonder why all our revolutionary intellectuals taught Bulgarian in all our schools across Macedonia and not some type of antiquisationisms. Yor views are flawed Peter, and you shame and embarrass our young people here. Our proud Macedonian identity stems from our Slavic ethnicity and no-one, not you or any other fabricator can change that.

Long Live Vasko Gligorov, the Macedonian Youth, and SDSM

To Peter .
"Qui vis paces para bellum"
To live in peace prepare for war
My old bloke this is the reason why Greece has taken provisional
measures in Macedonia.
Slav Macedonians, both those who had participated in EAM but also many who saw action in the various collaborationist militias, fled across the border into the Republic of Macedonia, newly formed as part of socialist Yugoslavia.
During the occupation(Axis) many Slav Macedonians had claimed a Bulgarian identity and collaborated with the Bulgarian troops, many now claimed a Macedonian [...]

Read the full comment identity and looked up to Tito’s Yugoslavia; many among them joined an independence movement (NOF) and a unit known as the First Aegean Brigade. Both organizations were closely allied with Yugoslavia’s Communist authorities, who themselves maintained complex ties with the Greek Communists.
There was a growing overlap between the Slavophone linguistic identity the Slav Macedonian (or Macedonian) ethnic identity, and the propensity to side with the Communist Left in 1946-49. Although the overlap was not complete, with a significant minority of Slav Macedonians siding with the Greek government it is clear nonetheless that most Slav Macedonians either collaborated with or openly fought with the Greek Communist rebels between 1946 and 1949 — 85 percent according to one estimate
Many settlers, especially in mixed villages, supported the Greek views . even altough they hail been ardent supporters of the Liberal Party during the interwar period ,
The Greek Civil War in Macedonia was by no means an ethnic war, it took on a pronounced ethnic character. The Slav Macedonians made a significant. indeed a critical contribution to the communist side during the Civil War in Greece; they bore the brunt of the war, since they inhabited the regions of Macedonia where the heaviest fighting took place.
By 1944 the Communist Party “had become almost totally dependent on the relatively small, mainly Slavophone, populated areas it held in central and western Macedonia.” Importantly, however, the nature of the Slav Macedonians’ participation in the Greek Civil War (at least at the elite level) was nationalist rather than Communist. The Communists were convenient allies in a struggle that was supposed to lead to secession from Greece and a merger with the Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia.
For the NOF “it was primarily a national struggle, a battle for the national liberation of the Macedonians in Aegean Macedonia.” a matter of secession.
A EAM-NOF/SNOF directive.
The districts of KILKIS ,ALMOPIAS ,GIANNITSON ,EDESSA, ARIDHEAS,FORINAS AND KASTORIAS are assigned by EAM/ELAS to the custody of SNOF.
SNOF is authorized to extend it’s custody to other areas and also to southern districts as soon as it has taken full control over the above mentioned areas .
The leaders of SNOF and EAM will eventually decide the creation of an autonomous Macedonian State of soviet-like organization which will be set under the direct protection of soviet Russia.
In order to subsidy EAM-SNOF/NOF effort it is taken into consideration that the international brigade to be formed and eastablished in KAIMAKTCHALAN must be endorsed by full ammunition support .
The occupation troops (Bulgarian) which already have control over the region of Macedonia assumes the responsibility after the Germans have left as to remit the control of all urban areas to EAM>
All potentrial nationalist element created since the beginning of the occupation (Axis) should be eliminated by the occupation troops and the establishment of a Soviet type flag with reversed(Bulgarian) colors centered with a star should be considered
On 2 August 1944, the anniversary of the llinden Uprising, the Florina and Kastoria
Slavo-Macedonian battalion (known as the “Goce Battalion”) was established in the village of Halara (Pozdivista) in the presence of representatives of the KKE, the Communist Party of Yugoslav Macedonia , and the political delegate of the 9th ELAS Division, Renos Mihaleas. The commander was Ilias “Goce” Dimakis and the political delegate Hristos Kokkinos.
Goce began systematically recruiting Slavophones in order to swell the battalion's numbers from the original 400. At the same time, liaison officers from Yugoslav Macedonia, notably Petre “Kocko” Bogdanov, were once again spreading propaganda about the right of the “Macedonian people” to self-determination and unification and demanding a GHQ. Having a somewhat hazy Leninist notion of the right to self-determination, Mihaleas tolerated these activities and had frequent clashes with the KKE's Macedonia Bureau, which later stripped him of his title. In a letter to Leonidas Stringos in August 1944, he wrote:
<<<<We have not spread the watchword of ethnic equality in the broadest, freest sense. We have not spread and analysed the message of the Atlantic Charter, the hard-won trophy of the people's struggle. Rather than being his homeland, striking terror and confusion into the heart of capitalism and Fascism, Tito's Macedonia has been a thorn in our side. The Cypriot hails Free Greece and the Atlantic Charter and the Macedonian hails Tito and the Atlantic Charter. So, more broadly,or rather more profoundly, than the 6th Plenary we shall have to show him the close embrace of '21 and Ilinden, and only then will our watchword of “Ethnic equality today!>>>> gleam in his eye

this is why the laws were promulgated in the specific area
because some idiots at that time
tried secession.
The price paid is no macedonian minority exists in Greece.
Go tell Voskopoulos the news which i bet he knows exactly but likes to play dumb.
have a night's sleep!
за утре1!!



the two mistakes whi



Chew my friend and good night

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Sasha,you dont seam to understand one thing,and that is;Ethnicity with Language.We are Macedonians and speak the Slavic language.Let me explain to you.The following people speak Slavic;Russia,Macedonia,Serbia,Bulgaria,Belarus,Ukraine,Slovakia,Poland.Does anyone is called Slavo-Macedonian or Slavo Bulgarian,or Slavo Ukrainian?.The only State that calls us a Slavo-Macedonians is Greece,and for a good reason.They want to hide the Macedonian history.You my friend are blind,of course you might be anti-Macedonian.Furthermore,the communist era is o v e r, Socio Democrats are gone,they sold our country for their own gain-money from a foriegn country.Are you proud that they got paid out by the Mitsotaki,Samaras government? Do you know [...]

Read the full comment what happened when Frckovski went to Gligorov braging about a Rollex watch received from Greece.This Party has sold the Macedonian people.As to Gruevskis ancestry,they were and are ethnic Macedonians like myself.The Socio-Democrats are trying to disscredit his ancestry the same as in the USA on Barak Obama.These people are the extrimists like yourself.Further,your comments are pro-Greek.Were you a benefactor on the 130 million dollars?

It has become quite clear that one of the major Gruevski projects has been to de-Slavitze our people. With the help of the anti-Hellenic antiquisationists and the much needed money from our diaspora our government is openly running anti-Slavic, anti-Hellenic campaigns. He himself (Gruevski) who has yet to answer the claims that his grandfather on his mothers side was a Macedonian of Greek ethnicity has highlighted his attitudes towards appeasing the diaspora while castigating many in our local communities. The concept of anti-Slavicism is only propelled by the lethargic response of many left wing Macedonians while a groundswell of nationalism [...]

Read the full comment continues to serve Gruevski's project of erecting ancient Greek speaking heroes in down-town Skopje while neglecting the all important revolutionary forefathers who created and cemented the identity we have today. There are many throughout Macedonia who disagree with Gruevski as recent polls show in regards to our name issue. If a referendum were held today the majority of our people would opt for a geographic qualifier whereas only 3 months ago they would not. Time is having an impact on our current political situation and it is possible that with the UN visit by Nimitz a compromise could surely be available. The old double name formula has run out of political steam, reality dictates that the economic situation in Macedonia can not live off remittances forever especially if the international banks decide to stop lending. Poverty in Macedonia has reached an all time high of 13% (some analysts claim as high as 20%) of our small population. In my hometown of Prilep we have 29% unemployment of which 17% are young people. The time of truth is knocking on our door.

Long Live Vasko Gligorov, The Macedonian Youth, and SDSM

Peter
Do not bother my friend take a good rest and tomorrow we will
continue

Scipio Africanus,I asked a very plain question,the question was asked for a specific Geek Laws.Why greece issued specific Laws againts the Macedonian minority, but not south of the Olympus mountain? It is a very specific question,and you have no guts to answere it as asked.Since you are unable to ansrwer it,I wont bother asking you again,nor I care to engage with you since you are acting like a Greek polititian who loves to fabricate the historical events.Have a nice day!

Peter
you havre already asked this question and below is the same answer.
Because some of you boys were in the recent past bad bad boys !!!
Nof Snof etc...

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Peter, being high on weed is not good for your brain, especially since at your age you can get schizophrenia from it

oh and peter what does Macedonia mean? I know if I google it or open a book the name means something in greek but not in bulgarian

GMS,"Re-Macedonia does not make an impression of a serious country by A1."First of all,A1 is an agent of the Greek government by receiving part of the 130 million dollars in black garbage bags. Secondly,Sekerinska has been reported,she also received money from the same garbage bags,as did her boss Crvenkovski and others.Greeces demise in the euro-zone today stems from the activities they undertook.Another grave mistake Greece made to pay France for not supporting Macedonia in the tune of between 4-14 Billion dollars for arms deal that does not need.Giving away 400 tanks for free to the DR of Congo is another [...]

Read the full comment fiasko for same reasons. You see GMS,Elena is right about your unsupstantiated arguments. Scipio Africanus,your answer is not what I directly asked you.Once before on my misspelling of your name you said "Do you feel the sting"Now I feel it did sting you,you cannot answer one plain question.Here again the question ;Why did Greece issued all those Laws againts the Macedonian minority but not bellow Olympus!This is a Greek question mark (?)It takes guts to answer a question truthfully,does it not?

"I don't doubt that Skopje is similar, but it hasn't hit the European headlines or the European markets anything as much as Greece has !"

>>>Because Skopje is not EU nor a NATO member, and too small country to be worth to be on headlines, I guess...And also because:

"MACEDONIA DOES NOT MAKE AN IMPRESSION OF A SERIOUS COUNTRY"

GMS - Yawn , yeah, so what ?

This is the leader of the Opposition in Macedonian government talking - what are they going to say ? Gruevski walks on water and cures infants of syphilis by his magic touch ? Come on, pull the other one...

Of course they are going to say that the country is crap and only they, the Opposition, can pull it out of its mess. 'Twas ever thus.

IIRC, Papandreou (PASOK) said precisely the same when in Opposition to Karamanlis of ND. [...]

Read the full comment Again , 'twas ever thus.

Unfortunately, Karamanlis (he of the plutocrat dynasty - just look at his well-fed face ! ) had dug Greece into a Very Big Hole Indeed by falsifying all the financial data fed back to Brussels over the years, doubtless to favour all his plutocrat (good Greek word, that) cronies in ND.

I do have some sympathy for Papandreou. Rarely can an Eastern European politican have had to "clean out the Augean Stables" (another good classical Greek analogy) as much as he.

I don't doubt that Skopje is similar, but it hasn't hit the European headlines or the European markets anything as much as Greece has !

Why ? Minor crime largely goes unreported; only major crimes hit the headlines. 'Twas ever thus, in all countries of the world (except North Korea).

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GMS - so where do you stand then on "protection, nepotism, and corruption" which were identified in today's Times as characteristics of current Greek society and the basis of many of Greece's Euro Woes ?

I must admit that when I first read it, I could not BELIEVE that this was referring to Greece, after all that you have said about this paragon of democracies, and so assumed that it must be referring to Skopje.

Unfortunately, on re-reading the Times, I discovered that I had got the wrong country, and that it [...]

Read the full comment was actually clearly referring to Greece, mother of democracies.

Your comments, either from a PASOK or an ND viewpoint, would be very welcome (or KKE, if that suits you better).

"Oh dear, did I say "Skopje" ?"

>>>I start to love you, Elena. After the greek macedonia salad, you know call it this country with the right name. We will soon become friends again. Cheers!

GrkMacSup- you might wish to see this profile about Skopje in this morning's Times:

<< Turning round an entire economic culture, which has tolerated protectionism, nepotism and corruption, will be difficult. “Sometimes in Greece, we feel like we are a mix of the American Wild West and an African country,” said Stavros Alexakis, an Athens-based entrepreneur. “When one clan is in power, it controls everything, puts its own people in the best jobs, refuses checks and balances, and blames the problems on the other clan’s past governing.

“The Wild West only changed [...]

Read the full comment when the US federal government intervened to correct imbalances and injustices. Maybe this is what we need from the EU.”

THE fear that they were dealing with a bunch of cowboys was what concerned many leaders in Brussels last week >>

Oh dear, did I say "Skopje" ? This all appears to refer to Greece instead. Well, we all make mistakes, including even you !

Gwydyon - to politely answer your question - yes, I know the Berlaymont well (as an EU delegate). The restaurant is not open to the public but is very good, and has lots of Greek staff who were attracted by Belgian wages.

"Macedoine" is just the general French word for mixed vegetables, and has nothing to do with Macedonia, as GMS seems to think.

"Cornichon" is the French for gherkin, and is the origin of a local Bruxellois expression in Brussels: "bande de cornichons", meaning "load of idiots" or worse. (I don't [...]

Read the full comment think it is standard French.)

It is frequently used in Belgian newspapers such as "Le Soir" or "La Libre Belgique" to describe the Flemings or the Greeks, especially recently in the EuroCrisis. It is also used in "Le Journal de Geneve" in Switzerland (the Belgian and Swiss French dialects are very similar.)

Hope this is helpful - garedig iawn i chwi (if you are Welsh, which I think you may be)

Elena
I wonder what is a Cornichon is it of political importance?
would be gratefull if you could clarify because you use Berlyamaont that is the EU HQ in
Brussels.

Skopje is a too turbulent nation to ever pretend to be a european member. Those couple of absurd things describe the slavic genetic character: wars with brothers killing each others (Yugoslavia fiasco), illogical reasonings, implosion, explosion, distortion of history, stealers of culture, extortion, mafia, proxenetism, etc.

All those bad things are typically against the European value. Therefore I am afraid there is no hope to become a EU member or to survive as a state if there are no radical changes within 1-2 years.

"Macedoine de Cornichons a la Grecque": so you finally recognize that Macedonia is Greek! Excellent! Thumbs up!

I think "Grecque Macedoine Supreme de Cornichons" describes our friend rather aptly.

I wouldn't worry about him too much, Scipio, he's incapable of following a close logical argument, and his inability to distinguish between the EU, the EuroZone, and NATO would be worrying if it wasn't so farcical.

(But maybe he's right - all three bodies are based in Brussels, and they serve Macedoine de Cornichons a la Greque in all the staff restaurants. Which supports my original theory that he is really a waiter in the EU Berlaymont staff restaurant.......)
[...]

Read the full comment />
Bon appetit....eet smakelijk, as Van Rompuy would say.

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Peter
you havre already asked this question and below is the same answer.
Because some of you boys were in the recent past bad bad boys !!!
Nof Snof etc...

Greek Macedoine Supreme de Volaille -

Many thanks. A period of silence on your part would be welcome.

GMS,First Greece have to prove what happened with the black garbage gags before UK can condider any help for the big dpenders to buy political favours from the news media. Got that?

To Elena: "Greek McBurger","Greek McSoup Burger", "Greek Mac Soup"?? I have been kind once, twice, to reply to your silly arguments, but I think I cannot consider you as a serious interlocutor anymore if you write childish things like this. I am other than 40 years old and I am not willing to pursue further discussions with an ignorant and unrealistic man as you.
I will avoid to answer to your provocations and childish comments right now. I advice to the other readers to ignore you as well.

Scipio Africanus,I ased you one question,and you cannot answere it.Well, once more; Why Greece issued all these Laws againts the ethnic Macedonians and non south of Olympus? A very simple question. Oh, I forget,you are Greek,it does not surprise me. GMS,you are very,very naive dud.Your arguments like those who day Tito made Macedonia,here I will make a short statement"Tito was not even conceived when Macedonia existed,for that matter,Greece did not exist till 1834.Leave the nonesense behind and start a new.Macedonia never was Greek now or in Antiquity.

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The date of this article is old now: Feb 11 2010. And also you are a bit naive to think that UK will not give money to Greece.
Of course, UK will not say officially that it will help Greece, because of the popular reaction... But unofficially, it will send a big massive check, just like the other countries of the EU. I think France & Germany would not be really happy if UK does not give its contribution to the big money rescue project...

And UK official know it is a big opportunity [...]

Read the full comment to buy some lucrative investments now in Greece.

So I am afraid you are unable to decrypt the official and unofficial language of things that are obvious: billions of euros will go in Greece, while zero dinar will be perceived by Skopje. Simple equation, simple result.

I would not be surprised that Greece would prefered to stop to invest in Skopje and instead in UK. Cannot imagine what kind of huge damages a such decision would create in Skopjaland...

To Elena
Just read some of Sasha’s posts and then go fly a kite around Skopje cause you and yore friends are clueless.

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Elena my sweet
<<<Meanwhile, I imagine Skopje is very grateful that it did NOT invade Aegean Macedonia in the 1990s, as it would have acquired a great deal of toxic unmanageable debt in the process >>>>
Maybe it was the opposite exactly
milosevitc-mitsotakis secret entente then.
Good day to you: for heavens sake decide She or He or shall i have to agree with GMS fot Trans.
cheers

Seamus
<<<<Nobody can suspect the Irish of being crypto-imperialists or being in the pocket of international capitalism (or the Macedonians!)>>>>
you!!! Advocate of indexes
and Stockmarket supremacy usind RED terminology how come mate??
Decide Stockmarket economy or
Real Economy. IMF ECB or Production.

GMS - there none so stupid as those who will not read ! You have read several times on this site that the UK is giving NO HELP to Greece whatsoever, so when you say :
<< Investments from the France, Germany, UK will be injected in Greece in order to create a top-modern economy which will be able to resist to all the other crisis >>

...you are certainly wrong about the UK, very probably wrong about Germany too judging by today's German press, and wrong in a different sense about France.
[...]

Read the full comment />
France wants to erect a "firewall" or "cordon sanitaire" around Greece within the EuroZone. This is an interesting idea which might work, but which would create a "two-tier" EuroZone, with Greek-issued Euro banknotes (for example) only circulating within Greece. There is a workable precedent for this in the split between the Czech and the Slovak currencies in 1991-92.

The French idea is possibly quite a sound one, but it would result in Greece becoming the "Poor Man of Europe" within the EuroZone.

Well, I suppose it makes a change from being the "Sick Man Of Europe", as all the papers are saying today about Greece (papers outside Greece, that is.)

Meanwhile, I imagine Skopje is very grateful that it did NOT invade Aegean Macedonia in the 1990s, as it would have acquired a great deal of toxic unmanageable debt in the process !

Happy days.....

To the same stupid (transexual) guy behind the two aliases, Seamus & Elena:

You are not a visionary man and that was proven dozen of times by the past. Or when you start to predict the future, you say silly anti-hellenic prophecies about Greece being excluded from the eurozone and from the EU, and other crazy things - while a sane person knows that none of this will ever happen.

On the other hand, let is project us in the future. Greece is in the financial crisis, but will overcome it soon, [...]

Read the full comment sponsored by the EU who will manage its economy with top financial analysts & economists throughout Europe. Investments from the France, Germany, UK will be injected in Greece in order to create a top-modern economy which will be able to resist to all the other crisis.

On the other hand, Skopje is static and the retro-policy/strategy of the Macedonia name, which everyone knows obviously that it belongs exclusively to Greece, is going nowhere. The doors of the EU and NATO remain closed, so this country is totally unsecure, with neighbours who are waiting the best opportunity to put an end to this geographic aberration. Greece wants to take its old part of the Macedonian kingdom, Bulgarians of Skopje want to live together with the Bulgarians, same thing for the Albanians.
So keeping the statu quo of ridiculous claims will not only downgrade the political image of this country, but I am very afraid it will soon belong to the past...

And then Skopjans, disseminate in the diaspora like the Jews, will start to have deep regret: "too bad Skopje did not accept "Upper Macedonia", we would have not loose our country nowadays".
But it will be too late...

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Oh dear, to have to explain to Greek McSoup Burger the basics of English !

"We" refers to all readers of this column. It is the plural number, as in "nous" in French or "Wir" in German.

On the economic point, if you have any evidence that "Greece will be the richest Balkan country in five years", you really should have been in Davos or Brussels last week to tell this magic news to the assembled European Heads of State.

I am sure they would have been very [...]

Read the full comment grateful, as would the IMF, ECB, and the international hedge funds who are speculating against the euro.

Meanwhile, I suggest you go back to reading back issues of Kathemerini and re-living past Hellenic glories. There ain't going to be any new ones in the foreseeable future....

"I thought we'd heard the last of you".

>>>Why do you always use "we" instead of "I"? Do you think you are the center of this world? Definitely a sign of megalomania...

But then again, Greece will become by far the richest balkanic country within five years and even more if Macedonia is unified under its own territory. Something which may happen, with the Great Albania project being launched soon, a realistic diplomat says...

Greek MacSoup

Boze moje - I thought we'd heard the last of you. Obviously not. Fools, like death and taxes are always with us, alas.

When you say <<While Greece will become rich>>, just what planet are you living on ?

That certainly wasn't what Prime Minister Papandreou said last night in Athens on his return from Brussels, and he is perhaps in a better position to know than are you.

But then he is a realistic and a successful politician, and you are [...]

Read the full comment not......

This comment has been removed by the moderator because it contained off-topic content

Scipio - you're certainly correct about the rivalry between IMF and ECB, which is one thing that prevented this week's Brussels summit from having a more concrete outcome to help Greece.

Plus the fact that the Netherlands openly espouses IMF, while France backs ECB, and Germany sits uneasily in the middle.

Today's news reports indicate that Papandreou expressed his disappointment very clearly on his return to Athens.

One can entirely understand and sympathise with his personal reaction, even though his PASOK predecessors were partly (only partly) responsible for [...]

Read the full comment the current mess in the first place.

ND were pretty responsible too, as the previous ND Finance Minister recently "broke ranks" to admit. (This is Off Topic for this thread, but it's a pretty interesting subject !)

Yes thats right Peter, Delchev was from Greece but he throughtout his life stated that he was a representative of the Bulgarian people of Macedonia. Karev when he declared the first republic did so for Bulgaria and the flag he raised for this was a Bulgarian flag. You can fabricate your identity Peter but there are many of us who are proud of our Macedonian identity just the way it is and that is Slavic. Your antiquisationism is full of potholes where anyone interested could drive a bus through. Your Macedonian identity rests on the pretense that the Greek speaking [...]

Read the full comment ancient Macedonians were not a Greek tribe but you have failed to answer the most important question. Why is their material record culturally non-Slavic but Greek and why are you not proud of our Slavic heritage. You may have asked one or two people in Stip but beleive me there are a large part of our Macedonian society who openly praise their Bulgarian roots. In other words why is it that we have no Bulgarian minority in Macedonia just as there is in Albania, Serbia, and Greece. You see Peter while some of you who have come from Greece and into the diaspora believe in a fabricated ID others who remained there are still upholding their Bulgarian origins with the one simple fact they speak exactly like you and I. Your ramblings about payouts etc., are nothing more than the docile words of an old disgruntled man who never got to achieve his dreams but sits on his backside and castigates everyone else for his own shortcomings. My family has lived in Macedonia for generations and we don't need a fabricated ID forced upon us when we all know that our forefathers who created our identity were buried over a hundred years ago.

Long Live Vasko Gligorov, the Macedonian Youth, and SDSM

Elena

all these articles spme of which purely populistic have one common denominator "Speculation"
in Money Markets in extensio
the war between the IMF and ECB.
plying a Nasty role not only on Greece but on the whole Eurozone

The Yankees want dollar supremacy
so do the Brits.

Scipio has a certain point here -
there are still dialects of English (such as that on the Northumberland coast) which are half-Scandinavian but are technically classified as English.

I pity the poor foreigner who arrives in Durham or Alnwick (in Northumberland) and tries to understand what the locals are saying, though. Aye oop, bonny lad, wilt ye mak the bairns te greet... and so on.

PETER.
A token of special research
P.A.Brunt.
The relics of the Macedonian language, such as the names of
places and persons, both human and divine {..} show that it
was basically Greek with an ad mixture of [probably] Illyrian.

Martin, Thomas R (1996) “Ancient Greece From Prehistoric to
Hellenistic Times” pg. 188.
“Macedonians had their own language related to Greek, but the
members that dominated Macedonian society routinely learned
to speak Greek because they thought of themselves and [...]

Read the full comment indeed all Macedonians as Greek by blood.”

Hammond & Griffith “A History of Macedonia 550-336 BC” Vol II
"Macedonian was not a non-Greek language but a dialect of the
Greek language in which Alexander spoke for a special purpose;
and in the case of his order the vocabulary, as well as the
pronunciation, was probably particular to this dialect. On
a later occasion the Macedonian”

Hammond (1992) “The Miracle that was Macedonia” pg. 206.
“As members of the Greek race and speakers of the Greek language,
the Macedonians shared in the ability to initiate ideas and
create political forms.”

O.Masson (1996) “The Oxford Classical Dictionary 3rd ed. Macedonia,Language” pgs 905-906
”Yet in contrast with earlier views which made of it an
Aeolic dialect [O. Hoffmann compared Thessalian] we must by
now think of a link with North west Greek [Locrian, Aetolian,
Phocidian, Epirote].

Toynbee, A.J
"King Philip II’s momentous decision to make, not the native
Macedonian variety of North-East Greek, but Attic the official language of the kingdom of Macedon which, in the next generation, had generated the Greek successor states of The Persian Empire.”

are they all are bribed or biased

This comment has been removed by the moderator because it contained off-topic content

This comment has been removed by the moderator because it contained off-topic content

This comment has been removed by the moderator because it contained off-topic content

This comment has been removed by the moderator because it contained off-topic content

Sasha,you have no pride in your ethnicity,do you?.You must be with Georgievski.Look,I respect people of all ethnicities,as long as they dont sell off their own like,Crvenkovski,Georgievski,Frckovski and yourself.Gotse Delchev was from Aegean Macedonia,and you are potraing him as Bulgarian or Nikola Karev the first President of the Krushevo Republic? Did you get some of the 130 million,I bet only your friends did.How dare you clling the Macedonians Bulgarians! The Greeks are saying we are Greeks,are we?We are Macedonians,different than the Greeks and Bulgarians.Sasha,I have been in Stip,friend of my is there,he does not say he is Bulgarian.As I have said [...]

Read the full comment before,you are Bulgarian,not Macedonian at all.I will tell you once more,we are Macedonians,we cannot be either Bulgarian or Greek as both sides claim.We are wanted people because of our long history.The only connection to the Greeks is religion,the Bulgarian connection is the religion and the Macedonian Cyrilic Alphabet,that the Bulgars accepted when Cyril and Methody were spreading it throughout the northern parts of the continent for use of religious cermons.Bulgaria is our friend,they were the first to recognise the constitutional name of the Republic of Macedonia,second was Turkey and third was Russia.Since than 127 recognised Macedonia,and it will continue.Wait till the ICJ decision is rendered between Greece and Macedonia.Todays talks are continuing between Macedonia and Greece.We all have freedom of speach,but lets not falsify the truth.

To Elena la pétasse:

"The Eurozone has not yet promised any precise sum of money to Greece, and anything lent (not given) will be subject to very severe conditions, probably in breach of Greek national sovereignty".

>>>Wake up: EU support = big huge amount of the money for Greece

"Furthermore, for Greece to leave the Eurozone is still one of the options on the table in Brussels".

>>>How, why, who, where did you read that?

"If you don't believe me [...]

Read the full comment , just look at the BBC report of today and the Financial Times".

>>>Where is it? Any link?

"And it is confirmed that the UK is not contributing one Eurocent (or one drachma in old money) to the exercise, so your claim that the "whole EU will give money to Greece" is simply wrong. And it won't be a gift, even from the others, but a loan with very severe conditions attached".

>>>UK is in the EU, right? So it is a contributor.

"If you, as a Greek, are happy with this, you must be living in some fool's paradise one of of the more remote islands in the Aegean...."

>>>Actually I am living Thessaloniki, in Macedonia, I mean the real Macedonia, not the fake one of Skopje.

"If I were a Skopjan, I wouldn't be at all worried'.

>>>If I were a Skopjan, I would have packed my bagage for a long time exil, since my country is almost ready to be eaten in 3 parts between Greece, Albania & Bulgaria...

"I have the IMF 'umbrella' over me, and since IMF members must proceed by 'unanimity', I have a veto on any IMF help to Greece".

>>>The umbrella will not be usefull anymore when Skopjaland will disappear from the map. But you can use it to protect yourself from the ultraviolet radiations of the Greek Macedonia.

Sur ce, bonne journée, petite chienne!

It is quite amusing to read the level of naivety that continues to be written in regards to historical narratives. Peter for example, has never understood that not all his Slavic speaking Macedonians in Greece are as himself antiquisationsts. The vast majority in Greece have openly voiced in our university surveys that they are Macedonians of Bulgarian origins and their mother tongue is Bulgarian. The naivety of Peter continues to prevail that only the ancient Greek speaking Macedonians survived until our Slavic forefathers arrived and that other Greek tribes disappeared. Sadly he really believes this line of fanciful inflations but [...]

Read the full comment reality is sturdy and gritty. He (Peter), like me and all other Slavic speaking Macedonians are all descended from our Bulgarian forefathers. In Prilep where I live the majority of the left wing people openly pride themselves of their Bulgarian ancestry like Gotse Delchev and co. My great uncle for example who fleed Greece after the civil war as a child always retells the amount of Bulgarian communities throughout the Kostur, Lerin, and Voden regions and many of them who are now in foreign lands are constantly under attack by the antiquisationists to drop their Slavic heritage and become part of the new fabrication which people like Peter and co. have already adopted. You see identity is a social construct and unlike Peter's views is a modern construct. Fools are plenty who believe in continuity but realists are few who understand that our ethnicity is but only young and is still in its nurturing stages of evolvement.

Long Live Vask Gligorov, the Macedonia Youth, and SDSM.

"We are Slavs who came to this area in the sixth century ... we are not descendants of the ancient Macedonians."

Quote from FYROM'S President Mr. Kiro Gligorov.
(from the Foreign Information Service Daily Report, Eastern Europe,
February 26, 1992, p. 35. )

Scipio Africanus,I dont speak french.Write in Macedonian, Polish,Greek,Bulgarian or English. Thank you.

Scipio Africanus,do you feel cornered?

Peter

It is what you call in French "un Patois"

Nu brast glarim !!!

over ant out

Scipio Africanus,I am from Aegea Macedonia and I speak the same language as my compatriots there.It is not Bulgarian,it is not Serbian,but a distinct Macedonian language as Dendramis said in 1925.I asked you to answer one question and you are dancing around.You see,when I say,Greeks are in the mythical times,believe me you are there.Why are you shying away from my questions?.Believe me, I know why,and that is your theory of Macedonia being Greek is a big MYTH!.

Greek MacDonalds Soup - just read the news update elsewhere on this site and see how wrong you are !

The Eurozone has not yet promised any precise sum of money to Greece, and anything lent (not given) will be subject to very severe conditions, probably in breach of Greek national sovereignty.

Furthermore, for Greece to leave the Eurozone is still one of the options on the table in Brussels.

If you don't believe me , just look at the BBC report of today and the Financial Times. [...]

Read the full comment

And it is confirmed that the UK is not contributing one Eurocent (or one drachma in old money) to the exercise, so your claim that the "whole EU will give money to Greece" is simply wrong. And it won't be a gift, even from the others, but a loan with very severe conditions attached.

If you, as a Greek, are happy with this, you must be living in some fool's paradise one of of the more remote islands in the Aegean....

If I were a Skopjan, I wouldn't be at all worried. I have the IMF 'umbrella' over me, and since IMF members must proceed by 'unanimity', I have a veto on any IMF help to Greece.

Dobry vecer - have a nice evening !

Peter
Because some of you boys were in the recent past bad bad boys !!!

Peter
Megali idea was about Asia Minor
and a long time before you and I
were even even a suspicion
the language spoken in Fyrom in a
a very close dialect of Bulgarian
while the language spoken in
the Province of Macedonia in Greece is Greek.
on this happy note i bid you good
night!!

Scipio Africanus,one question for you to answer.Please stick to it. Why did Greece pass these Laws againts the Macedonians only? Thank you on advance.

Scipio Africanus,the language spoken in the Republic of Macedonia is spoken in Aegean Macedonia for centuries.You know history you say,but in your blood still exists the "Megali Idea".I truly hope,you did read all the Laws I have written on this site.There is no more I can tell you.These Laws reflect the truth I have been saying.We have a proverb not intended to you personaly,please I mean it.It goes like this "you can take the donkey to the water hole,but if it is not thursty,wont drink".On that note,have a nice day!

Peter/koinos/elena/icoognito
<<<Furtheremore to your question on Slavs.Can you explain who was there in that territory before the Slavs came?.The Ancient Macedonians did not dissapiere like the Hellens did.So, the Slavs and Ancient Macedonians were intergrated society.>>>>
If you can read i made no questions I stated Borza
If the claim is based on ethnicity, it is an issue of a different order. Modern Slavs, both Bulgarians and Macedonians, CANNOT establish a link with anitquity, as the Slavs entered the Balkans centuries after the demise of the ancient Macedonian kingdom. ONLY THE MOST RADICAL SLAVIC [...]

Read the full comment FACTIONS- mostly emigres in the United States, Canada, and Australia- EVEN ATTEMPT TO ESTABLISH A CONNECTION TO ANTIQUITY." - E. Borza, Macedonian Redux.
Definetly sorry if it does suit your views
<<<<Again, they have falsified history to the bone marrow. Now than, if the people of Aegean Macedonia (Northern Greece) are in fact Greek as the Greeks claim ,why all those Laws passed against the Macedonians and not in Greece proper(south of Olympus)?.Are we so narrow sighted?>>>>
Dardanian and Paeonian in Antiquitity cannot be taken as Ancient macedonians they were subdued by them.
<<<< Here are the last few Laws as I promised;1990 OSCE Copenhagen Conference on the Human Dimension,to which Greece is a signatory, states in Article 32. Greek High Court Decision 19,refuses registration of "Center For Macedonian Culture". 1992, Greece and Serbia conspire to overthrow and patrition the Republic of Macedonia. 1993 Macedonian human rights activists Hristos Sideropoulos and Tasos Boulis prosecuted under Greek Panel Code: Article 36,Para 191; disseminating false information;Para192;inciting citizens to distrub the peace.
<<<<Their crime?Declairing themselves as Macedonians in interview for Greek magazine ENA.Macedonian human rights activist and priest Nikodimos Tsarknias derobed and expelled by Greek Orthodox Church because of his human rights activities. Tsarknias refused a Greek bribe which would have elevated him to bishop in 1989,threarened with death. 1994 Extrimists in Australias Greek community burn two Macedonian churches, after Australian recognition of Macedonia. Greece continues to deny the existance of Macedonians in the Aegean Macedonia despite overwhelming evidance to the contrary . >>>
Yes !!! when we have casus pro ante of the SNOF NOF separist guerilla movement in the years 1944-49 the Apotoloski crap and the Vinozito (rainbow) Sic vis paces para bellum about that church burning i would appreciate more documentation because it contradicts Greek values.
"On the other hand, the Macedonians are a newly emergent people in search of a past to help legitimize their precarious present as they attempt to establish a singular identity in a Slavic world dominated historically by Serbs and Bulgarians." - E. Borza, Macedonian Redux.

"Their own so-called Macedonian ethnicity had evolved for more than a century, and thus it seemed natural and appropriate for them to call the new nation "Macedonia" and to attempt to provide some cultural references to bolster ethnic survival." - E. Borza, Macedonian Redux
Cheers
Ps
Do you feel more comfortable under
the nom de plume Peter

Scipio Sfricanus,yesterday,Feb.10th 2010 our time I was watching the entire debate of the EU Parliament.The only speakers who were againts Macedonia were the Greeks and mainly on the name issue.The name issue is a bilateral problem,same as Sloninja and Croatia.Furtheremore to your question on Slavs.Can you explain who was there in that territory before the Slavs came?.The Ancient Macedonians did not dissapiere like the Hellens did.So, the Slavs and Ancient Macedonians were intergrated society.After all,the movement of people did not take overnight,not like what happened in the City States of Hellas with the Albanian people (66%)of them.In spite of history,Greece [...]

Read the full comment is claiming 99.9% purity.If one can believe that.You see how far the Greeks would go just to prove they are descendants of Pericles and Demosthenes?.Again, they have falsified history to the bone marrow.Now than,if the people of Aegean Macedonia (Northern Greece) are in fact Greek as the Greeks claim,why all those Laws passed againts the Macedonians and not in Greece proper(south of Olympus)?.Are we so narrow sighted? Here are the last few Laws as I promised;1990 OSCE Copenhagen Conference on the Human Dimension,to which Greece is a signatory, states in Article 32. Greek High Court Decision 19,refuses registration of "Center For Macedonian Culture". 1992, Greece and Serbia conspire to overthrow and patrition the Republic of Macedonia. 1993Macedonian human rights activists Hristos Sideropoulos and Tasos Boulis prosecuted under Greek Panel Code: Article 36,Para 191; disseminating false information;Para192;inciting citizens to distrub the peace. Their crime?Declairing themselves as Macedonians in interview for Greek magazine ENA.Macedonian human rights activist and priest Nikodimos Tsarknias derobed and expelled by Greek Orthodox Church because of his human rights activities. Tsarknias refused a Greek bribe which would have elevated him to bishop in 1989,threarened with death. 1994 Extrimists in Australias Greek community burn two Macedonian churches, after Australian recognition of Macedonia. Greece continues to deny the existance of Macedonians in the Aegean Macedonia despite overwhelming evidance to the contrary. Greece cintinues represive and unrelenting policies againts Macedonians in the Aegean Macedonia despite objections by international human rights organizations.As you can see,Greeces democracy claimed after the ancient Hellens is not the same. Greece is the champion and best on falsifying history.This honour belongs to them.
Now than Scipio Africanus,can you tell me why Greece issued so many Laws againts the Macedonian minority?Is it because the Macedonians dont exist?

Elena/Icognito/Koinos Nous/....
in Greece we use,on your case
"condition" of overwhelming ardour against greece,an expression
"we asked a madman to fart and the poor man farted his guts out"
"ipan tou trelou na klasi ke o dystichos xekololothike "
watch it man it could lead to dementia. free advice take it or leave it your cup of tea.
ps.
You as Cassandra predict each time catastrophe but the facts prove you wrong.you are certainly not the oracle at Delphi after all
youu are making [...]

Read the full comment a fool out of yourself at most instances!

Incognito, why do use the pseudonym Elena to write a second post? Why do not you merge your views in one post?

Anyway, let is answer to this point:

"...is entirely wrong. Not all the EU is granting any money - the UK isn't, for starters - and no large sums are being unconditionally 'given' at all."

>>>Unfortunately, you are very wrong and you know it perfectly. I will remember to all the people there that yoy said Greece will be excluded from the Eurozone and instead Eurozone [...]

Read the full comment is supporting Greece...

And to save Greece, EU has to do a very big financial effort and support, that means billions of euros will be distributed to Greece the coming years to reduced the deficit debt and all the problems around, while Skopje will receive , well, nothing from this...

And you, Skopjan, should be happy with that. Greece is your number one investor. If Greece plunges, you will immediately plunge too.

But because of the name issue, Greece, which will be stronger than ever once the crisis is overcome, will stop the dreams of Skopje and make it plunge alone... The ultimatum from Greece will be for Skopje to accept "Republic of Vardaska". No alternative than this!

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This comment has been removed by the moderator because it contained off-topic content

I see a desperate attitude in your comments, Incognito/Koinos Nous.
The fact is that Greece will be sponsored by the entire EU right now and will get all the privilege.
EU will use the economy of Greece to practice experiences for future economic models. The best specialists of economy throughout the EU will deserve their time for this goal.

And here is the best thing from the whole story: the EU will give a huge amount of money to Greece and only to Greece - sorry Skopje, you will win zero penny [...]

Read the full comment from this, since you are not - humm - a EU member...


So Greece will become the number one economy of the Balkans and will have the leadership. Therefore I am afraid that Skopje's economy will be under a deep Greek pressure for the coming decades and will have no choice than to drop out the Macedonia name if it does not want to go bankrupt...

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Oh dear, GMS shows his ignorance of geography yet again.

"Prime Minister of South Australia" isn't what it seems. The title really means "State Governor" (Australia has seven States, plus the sovereign territory of Canberra), so Mike Rann is merely a State Governor (despite his grandiose title) with a large Greek diaspora in his constituency.

So of course he's going to spout pro-Greek propaganda; he'd be a fool not to. But this doesn't matter a row of beans in Canberra, the national capital.

Similarly, after today's Summit in [...]

Read the full comment Brussels, the Hellenic Republic could end up either as a German colony (just like in 1941 !) or a vassal state to the rest of the EU EuroZone members, with very strict internal controls imposed by Brussels. And, of course, no veto any more.

I do wish GMS wouldn't "clutch at straws" to establish his vision of a Brave New Hellenic World.

It simply won't happen...

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As Gruevski tries to keep his Greek heritage (mothers side from lerin) out of Macedonian news circles others begin to doubt whether his nationalistic fervour has been only a front to further his own self-aggrandizement. Gruevski's antiquisationism continues to be bankrolled by the diaspora while huge amounts of money are being spent on erecting statues of ancient Greek speaking Macedonians like Al.Veliki elsewhere excavations have taken priority over poverty as to try to find evdence that the ancient Macedonian language was anything other than a Greek dialect. So far Gruevski's chief government appointed archaeologist Pasko Kuzman has sadly admitted (to [...]

Read the full comment himself & Gruevski)that every bit of material evidence thus far dug up in Macedonia unfortunately indicates that the ancients were culturally, linguisticaly, and religiously a Greek tribe. Where does this leave us modern Macedonians who don't believe in Gruevski's (& diasporas) fabrications that we are descendents from anyone other than our Slavic forefathers? Surely when Gotse Delchev said that we are all Macedonians regardless of ethnic background he meant that not only the Bulgarian, Greeks, Vlachs, and Romas were Macedonian but also his own sworn enemies the Turks and Albanians. The vast amount of present literature on the ancients are united in declaring that the ancient Macedonians were a Greek tribe while the modern Macedonians are made up of many ethnicities. In other words our Macedonian identity in ROM is a national one based on citizenship but ethnically Bulgarian (or Slavic for those who disregard their Bulgarian roots) while those Macedonians in Greece are either ethnically Greek, Bulgarian, or as the antiquisationists prefer Slavic but they are never ancient blooded. To the many traitors in the diaspora who like Risto Stefov have poisoned the minds of many of our Macedonian people to the point that they believe in some fanciful way that they are part of the Greek speaking ancient macedonians of Al.Veliki. Thankfully there are just as many here at home (ROM) that deeply believe in their Slavic heritage and so uphold the honour of Delchev.

Long live Vasko Gligorov, The Macedonian Youth, and SDSM

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Greece is the best in this business. Because EU will help, back, secure Greece's future and manage it economically for at least five years. That means Greece will obtain without efforts - with all the precious advices of the EU heads - a top modern economy when the financial crisis will be over. So stay tuned, because I see Greece eat all the Balkans markets the coming years...

Sooner that you might think, the fake Alexander "replica" statues of Skopje will be bought and immediately sold by the Greeks on ebay!

yes, Greek Supredonia Macedremacy, the tsunami will indeed arrive.

Tomorrow, 11 February, in Brussels, and it will strike Greece.

Let us see what is left of Greece's autonomy after the Brussels summit, ECB, IMF, EIB, and the EU Council of Ministers have finished with it....

( One of the few times in life when it is actually better to be a resident of Skopje, when only the friendly Americans are your interlocutors ! Say ten words and they drop a hundred dollars....)

Greek brother, don't pay attention to this schizophrenic guy called Incognito and whatever other name he uses. He is a mad man paid by Skopje to diffuse wrong infos on forums. See how he's trying desperately to find one two people to support the lost cause of "Skopidjia". Everyone noticed it. Game over

To the two salopes, Elena & Incognito, who are the one and same person:

"that was a REUTERS press release that the Sofis Echo was running !"

>>>Stop to fantasize and start to realize. I know you were almost tempted to commit a suicide while this site was down for a few hours and you just confirmed with your stupid comments once again.

And to your other feedback on topic:

"Given today's news, it will therefore join Greece....

L'enfer, c'est [...]

Read the full comment les voisins..,as Sartre said"."

>>>The neighbours will not be a problem anymore after the absoprtion of Skopjaland.

For now, Skopje is still out and this is the most important thing. A country like that, with dangerous-old-fashioned rhetorics cannot pretend to be a european nation. Its countdown for the EU is in 5-6 years, but time is running out, since the Albanians are ready to strike again! So get prepared! Soon the tsunami will arrive!

Incognito,Hear what Borza is saying."Macedonians were not Greeks"Why are you falsifying the history.When Alexander the Great went to Asia he had 30 thousand Macedonians and 7 thousand Greeks who were willing to serve under Alexander.The Greeks did not take part in any fight,but they were looking after the animals they had.There were 50 thousand Greeks who fought againts him protecting Darious.You better get your story right my friend.The Macedonian Empire was Macedonian not Greek.This is a simple fabrication of history by Greece.Get a life dude.

Wed, Feb 10 2010 19:03 CET

Peter
Yes the stories of
Apostolski and Kolitsevski
have been so much imprinted in your brains from 1959 onward
(Rep Yugo time) that its impossible for you to live without them.

Scipio Africanus,can you answer a question if you have read the Greek laws I have mentioned on this site? Why the Greek government issued laws only againts the Macedonian population,and non for the Greek population?.Just a short comment;Greece was and is trying to Hellenize the ethnic Macedonians and to secure our history as being Greek.Greeces history is fabricated right down to the marrow of the bone.

Peter - you say you are Greek child refugee from Poland ? To swietnie ! Co Pan pamieta z Pana pobytu w Polsce ? A gdzie Pan mieskal - przy albo okolo Katowice w Slasku ?

Please share your Polish reminiscences - I would love to hear them.

Do slyszenia, Piotrze

Scipio,I am one of the children refugee from Greece.Learned history in Poland and books I read today.Have a nice day!

Greek Macedonia Supremacy -

you say:
----------------------------------
Skopje still out of the EU for a very long time, if not for ever...
----------------------------------

Given today's news, it will therefore join Greece....

L'enfer, c'est les voisins..,as Sartre said.

Happy days...

GMS - ma petite idiote - that was a REUTERS press release that the Sofis Echo was running ! You cannot get much more authoritative than that !

So I am afraid your comments about :
- a bulgarian online site which was down for hours because of HD troubles -

is VERY unfair to the Sofia Echo and indeed shows invincible ignorance about Reuters.

Suggest you learn a bit more about reputable international news sources before you post again, mon vieux.

I think my source is more accurate than a bulgarian online site which was down for hours because of HD troubles... No offense to Sofiaecho, they are doing a job overall (except for the moderation case), and even if the informations they provide are late to be published.

So I am afraid it is you who is wrong again about Skopje still out of the EU for a very long time, if not for ever...

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Peter
yes those stupid teachers
of yours Apostolski and Kolitsevski
stated the antiqisation process
1959 in yugo fed rep macedonia.

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My apologies, dude... I somewhow don't interprete correctly history and you're right to say I have no nowledg at all about Greek story.
I know Macedonia is all Greek from the first time, but my school and my teachers in Skopje learnt me something different, absurd stuff like we come from Alexander. Don't misunderstand me, dude. Thank you.

Peter.

You may have yourself why this Scipio does not ask a question
Well time is up
Where have you studied the history of Greece and Macedonia.?

Socrates,finaly you addmitt that you are Albanian.Next time do not brag that you are connected to the ancient Hellens,let along to the ancient Macedonians.You have proven to me what I have said,that there are no ancient Hellens living on this earth.Since we are in agreement as to who you are as you said,why are you claining connection to the Macedonians.Socrates, I dont read wykepedia,I learned history of Greece and Macedonia in a third country where there is no bias.Dude,as you say,you must be more careful when saying anything,it will bite you on the rear.Look what the situation is in Greece [...]

Read the full comment on the financial front from the EU report.Did you read the Greek laws I axposed on this site?.I have more,will continue. The fact is, Greece and Macedonia are talking on mutual issues,and that in its self is good sign.There are a lot of issues to resolve in the Balkans,lets see where will it takes us. Have a nice day.

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Socrates my friend - nature abhors a bad loser.

Vlad is quite right about the possible inaccuracy of Wiktionary and Wikipedia - they's a great first source of info, but always confirm it before using it. (Looks as if this time you didn't.)

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Sasga,you should be ashamed.Gruevskis grandparents,and parents are Macedonian.There is no Greek blood flowing in his vanes.Sasha,you are not Macedonian,you must be Bulgarian at best, or you are the supporter of the recipients of the 130 milion dollars.I would be ashamed to pretend other than what I am,and for your information,I am proud Macedonian! I am not againts the Bulgarian or Greek people,I am againts the fabricators of the truth.

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I know the end of Skopje is approaching with huge steps, but is that a reason to sink in the alcohol?

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Those under 20 in Macedonia (like myself) have all been raised on a diet of nationalism and identity politics. Since 1991, the older generations (especially in the diaspora) have been persuaded that their identity was godsent from the times of Al.Veliki and co. For the Macedonian Youth Al.Veliki is no more than another attempt by our right wing government (& diaspora) to glorify our people but unwittingly with a historical figure who does not belong to us. Their shame of our Slavic roots is so deep that Gruevski continues to promote his antiquisation politics at the dismay of foreign but [...]

Read the full comment more importantly local Macedonian academics. Rather than acknowledge that the Macedonian people are a multi-ethnic people (e.g. his own family from Greece has Greek speaking Makedones roots from his mothers side but he never openly admits that he has Greek blood running in his veins)he continues to naively imply that there is a pure Macedonian Race. This is utter nonsense and only proves that nationalism coupled with intellectual poverty is dangerous. It is this simple fact that Gruevski so miserably fails for our Narod and for our region.

Long Live Vasko Gligorov, the Macedonian Youth, and SDSM.

The nominally “Macedonian” nation of FYROM emerged as a byproduct of Yugoslavia’s dissolution in the 1990’s and suffered a major transformation of the internal relationships after the US-supported uprising of its Albanian population in 2001 which led to a de facto confederalization of the country. As of late 2008, it is led by the charismatic ex-boxer Nikola Gruevski surrounded by a clique of young politicians. Plagued by chronic unemployment standing at the rate of 35%, with economy characterized by collapsing light industry based on primitive technologies and decaying public infrastructure, the nationalistic government of VMRO-DPMNE failed to attract any substantial [...]

Read the full comment foreign investments. Most of its economic policies failed to raise the public standard based on average salary of barely 300 USD. At the same time analysts predict that the consequences of the Global financial crisis are yet to strike FYROM, raising the issue of further deterioration of the prospects for decent livelihood.

Your version of the "truth" is one side of the story which you have stretched and radicalised, if you don't care for others opinions then please move to another site

Scipio Africanus,your time is 43 min. after midnight,ny time right now is 6:07 pm.When you wake-up,read on the financial situation of Greece. Good night!

"Greece under EU protectorate as funds shift. The EU told Greece to "spell out the omplementation calendar of (budget) measures within one month." Others must be ready to "adopt additional measures if needed,"and to submit quarterly updates. The cap the humiliation, the EU is taking Greece to court over past falsification of budged figures. This is the first time we have established such an intense and quasi-permanent system of mobitoring said Mr.Almunia. Samir Patel, from the consultaney BH2 said austerity plans will almost certainly send Greece into a deflationary spiral. and tip its banking system into the Mediteranean Sea.One banker [...]

Read the full comment described events as eerily similar to Bear Stearns and Lehman Brothers in 2008, this time involving sovereign State rather than banks".This must hapen under the Article 121 of the Lisbon Treaty.Greeces existance is at risk,I told you so before.Macedonias budget to balance needs only 25 million euro. Socrates,do you see the differance?.Greece must continue talking to Macedonia and must accept the facts,Macedonia does exist.

Peter
Good night!

Tzi Tzu,I dont use derogatory comments.I write only the truth.Does anyone objects to the comments of the Greek laws? It is the truth my dear fellow.Greece and Macedonia are talking,and they will continue.Aegean Macedonia is considered as a Province by Greece,Macedonia is an independent nation,the name is Macedonia.

To:Socrates,Incognito and Scipios Africanus;Dont you wonder why Greece passed so many laws againts the Macedonians?Why there are no laws passed for the proper Greece?.Even a first grader understands the differance,but not you.The xenophobia is choking you.As for Macedonia being Greek,you are in dream land.Learn your history,your shmeless comments are fit only for those who are from the cave era.If you read the Greek laws,you will understand better your own history. Have a nice day!

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Scipio - one does not "open" with the king; that would be impossible; p-k3 or p-k4 must come first.

What your friend actually said was to "lead" with the king, which is another thing entirely, and usually confined to the end game when only the two kings and various pawns are left on the board.

As he said, to 'lead' with the king is highly risky play, and not for the uninitiated. Karpov playing Kasparov (Minsk, 1988) managed it once, however, using all his master's skill.

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To Stupid Nous:

"As for "Alaska", beware Sarah Palin (former Governor of Alaska, now leading US politician). She is on record as saying that "Greeceland" should be re-united with "Turkeyland" so as to strengthen NATO's southern flank."

>>>Where did you read those silly things? In some odd obscure skopjan newspapers I guess, or probably the aftereffects of your estonian vodka... In fact, Sarah Pallin (if she will ever be elected : something I doubt) would be more in favor of the implosion of Skopje and its absorption by the neighbour countries. She [...]

Read the full comment is up to give a boost to the Great Albania project. I think Greece would largely cooperates to it with a fair reunification of Macedonia under its territory. Skopje lave!

Yes we all know david is playing around on this site with multiple names (ie koinos nous, elena etc) The real question is when the moderators will finally do something about it

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Sasha
I have supported most of your views because i think they are
correct and plausible
Be proud of your Slav heritage
it has given a lot to the litterate world.
The slavic Scriptures are world -wide known The Old Church Slavonic is an Academic per se branch in most Unversities even in Greece
I agree about the multi-ethnicity of Macedonia during the Ottaman yoke.
Today you have yours(Fyrom)or whatever it will be called in the near future
the Bulgarians have theirs
[...]

Read the full comment Pirinska(Blagoevgrad province)
and we Greeks ΤΗΝ ΜΑΚΕΔΟΝΙΑ
the Province of Macedonia.
The borders are clear cut and
undistputable.
the Sirenes of antiquisation
and the separist tendencies of some
must not effect the wiil of the majority to live in Peace and
prosperity.

GMS - your grasp of reality is clearly slipping. When you say:

--------------------------------
>>>That is why Skopje has to drop out the old greek "Macedonia" name and use its modern name: Republika of Vardaska (which sounds good, like a reminiscence of "Alaska")
---------------------------------

...you clearly have been imbibing the old ouzo a bit. AFAIK, the Skopje government is still using the "Republic of Macedonia" name, even though some of us might prefer that it used "Republic of Northern Macedonia" instead (as you yourself said that Greece preferred too.) [...]

Read the full comment

As for "Alaska", beware Sarah Palin (former Governor of Alaska, now leading US politician). She is on record as saying that "Greeceland" should be re-united with "Turkeyland" so as to strengthen NATO's southern flank.

Is this the kind of Alaska you had in mind ?

We all look forward to Greece's reunion with Turkey with a certain amount of anticipation. (At least it would solve the current Greek financial crisis !)

Presumably then Sarah Palin would be taught to call Greece "Yunanistanland" instead ?

American politicians are always so refreshing, aren't they ?

I think, Scipio, that you have just fallen into my logical / geographical trap !

In short, just because the name of a modern territory is identical or much the same as an ancient territory, does NOT mean that its modern population, language or ethnicity are anything like the same !

So Magna Britania / Great Britain has the same name but a very different ethnicity. So does Gallia / France - same name, very different ethnic population. So does Hispania / Spain - same name; ethnicity half derived from the Moriscos [...]

Read the full comment or Arabs. As for Italy - after the Visigoths, Lombards, Venetians, Arabs from Sicily, even Greeks from Sicily, their ethnicity is - to put it mildly - mixed. Except around Trieste/Trst, where they are pure Slovene, but speak Italian (and Slovene too, if pushed.)

Precisely the same happens in the Macedonias (all three of them), where the populations is a mix of Illyrian originals,Bulgarians, other Slavs, Vlachs, Pontians, Greeks displaced from elsewhere in the peninsula, and Roma.

Thank you for making my point so clearly !

(PS if you play chess - it helps not to try to lead with the king in normal play !)

Many thanks to Incognito for his brillant linguistic explanations. That shows perfectly that the so-called "macedonian language" of the Skopjans is clearly today an invention to consolidate their "antiquization" propaganda and nothing more...

To Elena/Koinos Nous:

"Harking back to ancient history is unproductive"

>>>That is why Skopje has to drop out the old greek "Macedonia" name and use its modern name: Republika of Vardaska (which sounds good, like a reminiscence of "Alaska")

Elena
My sweet little girl
MAGNA BRITANIA IS THE LATIN FOR GREAT BRITAIN
"Great britain and N.Ireland"

GALLIA WRITTEN LIKE YOU PROPOSE
ΓΑΛΛΙΑ ΙS FRANCE IN GREEK.

Italia (Ιταλια in Greek) is Italy in Italian
Hispania or espana is Spain in Spanish) the e and n in Espana
have a dash on top i don't have a spanish keyboard.
I wholeheartly suggest that you
should learn some basics before
posting.
a person [...]

Read the full comment with rudimentary education would have done better.
Have fun with a couple of dolls
drop posting it may be hazardous
for you.
The word "harking" leaves me little suspicious.
Comprende?
cheers!!!!!

That the ancient Macedonians were a Greek people is, I agree, indisputable as the majority of the material record indicates. But that is not the case with the modern Macedonians. Today our regional Macedonian identity is made up of a multiethnic population. It is a mistake to believe that we (Slavic speaking Macedonians) in ROM are any less Macedonian than the Greek speaking Macedonians in Greece. Those who continue to follow a purist path with jingoistic interests will always look back into history and selectively find events to support their nationalistic views. The Macedonian Youth throughout the region are looking [...]

Read the full comment for leaders with direction and foresight for the future generations. So many here continue to dish out hyperbolic versions of their historical narrative e.g. my own compatriots in the diaspora who naively believe that they are descendents of Al.Veliki, without taking into account that our Slavic origins are from later arrivals and not biblical people as many of their community priests believe and who have no authority on scientific investigations. If Gruevski steps up to the role of diplomat then our people will unite behind him. However, if nationalism continues to be his political tool then many of our already disoriented people especially the young will continue to rally throughout Macedonia until he listens to the masses.

Long Live Vasko Gligorov, the Macedonian Youth and SDSM.

Yeah, taking Ingognito's logic, London should still be Latin-speaking, and the United Kingdom should be called "Magna Britania". Equally, France should be renamed "Gallia", and divided into tres partes / three parts. As for Germany, this shouldn't exist at all. Italy would still be called "Italia", of course, and Spain "Hispania", so everybody would be happy except the Poles and the Finns.

Alternatively, in the 21st century, life and geography have moved on slightly. Macedonia was divided into two halves by the later Romans, and into three sections by the Ottomans: Pirin Macedonia (now Bulgarian), Aegean [...]

Read the full comment Macedonia (now Greek), and Vardar Macedonia (now the Republic of [Northern} Macedonia.

Harking back to ancient history is unproductive, unless it is part of a campaign to woo back the tourists, and to pay academics fat fees for deliberating endlessly about the finer points of the lesser Macedonian obol as used to pay Xenophon's troops when the Persian gold ran out, is rather a waste of public funds.

Especially as Greece now needs every obol / drachma / eurocent it can get to bail itself out of its current financial crisis !

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Scipio Africanus,you need glasses? The title was "Former President of Bulgaria Zhelev spealed the beans"His comment was " Greece is shameless for not recognizing Macedonia".I quess we are not on same page.Scipio,I have never seen a question from you,you always avoiding my questions.You have never answered one to date.
I will be more than willing to answere to your questions,but the fact is,you cannot because the xenophobia of the Greeks got the better of you.

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Peter/Swiezy
My good man I can that you have a problem with eyesight my friend
your eyesight also
<<<<<the word Shamless came from the EU,not from me.Of course,you always go around the issues because you cannot answer the questions I posed to you.Oh one more,former President of Bulgaria Zhelev said those words as well,"Greece is shameless for not recognizing the Republic of Macedonia>>>>>
the word was Shambles
<<<<The Greek economy is in shambles.*-10 billion left the country and I quote;"In the last four to six weeks a lot of money [...]

Read the full comment has been moved abroad.>>>>>
you as peter were supposed to have written.
vai dormire vai you need a good sleep
good night
лека нощ ще видиме утре

Socrates,the Hellens long ago dissapeared,you have no ancestral connection bro.Those Hellens are extinct,so you have no connection.Have you seen Borzas video that shoked Greece about Alexander the Great?Are you learning history from Miller who was disscredited by professors who did signed on his petition and changed their opinion?.If you are interested, I can post what one o these professors said afterwards.Would you like that?

I think the myth comes from your country: Skopjans who believe they are not Slavs but Greek Macedonians. It's very crazy!

To Swaziland, Greece is member of IFM since 26/12/1945 while fyrom is since???

Old dude, did you never hear about the word Hellas? Should I have to explain you the Trojan war and 5000 years of history where Skopje was a Greek city?

Socrates,your 5000 year history is a myth.Greece became a state in 1834,before that there were City States.Just look up the official Greek map of 1925.It will tell you excacly when todays Greece became a nation.Even Crete became Greek in 1913.You realy dont know your history,do you?

"Interesting - Makedonija is on executive committee of IMF, and Greece is not".

I see nowhere written Fyrom is on executive committee of IFM. You badly read the page.

And where is it written Greece is not part of IFM?

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Scipio Africanus,the word Shamless came from the EU,not from me.Of course,you always go around the issues because you cannot answer the questions I posed to you.Oh one more,former President of Bulgaria Zhelev said those words as well,"Greece is shameless for not recognizing the Republic of Macedonia".What is it with you Greek supporters,cant you once tell the truth.after all you claim you know everything.As to the old age sony,I still feel probably younger than you.I can tell you, I know more than you about the Nazi occupation,EAM,ELAS than you can learn in your life time.

In 1829? Definitely you need to buy a good encyclopedia, because the greek history is more than 4000-5000 years old. At those antic times, the word "Albania" and "Slavs" even did not exist.
Ipiros was Greek and never Albanian. The so called Albanians who are living there nowdays have direct greek descendants. You would be surprised to know that you, Skopjanos, are Greek too.

Socrates,in 1829 Greece consisted of Peloponesos and the Athenian province.Epiros was never Greek.Greece got Epiros after they got Thesalea.Epiros became Greek in 1913,same time Aegean Macedonia was swallowed by Greece with the Big Powers consent.Dind you know that Greece and Bulgaria were at War over Macedonia in 1912?Dind the Greeks came to help the Macedonians to free themselves from the Ottomans?.I think,Greece will end up under the protectorate of the EU.Greece economicly will never survive.Few more billions of euro will take flight from Greece,than what?.Macedonia is not in the same situation financialy as Greece.Like I said,black garbage bags are still [...]

Read the full comment active.They dont care about the jo on the street,they care to get elected only, havent you got that yet?.Have a nice day,and dont get upset about the truth.

Sweiezy
when you get nervous (seeing your protegee Fyrom attacked) you make serious tactical mistakes you put the word shambles into "Peter's"
vocabulary the poor old man can't
has some serious orthographical mishaps, one can check his memomarable posts and validate
my saying how in hell he could come up with the word "SHAMBLES"
TO USE THE WORD ONE HAS TO BE AN EDUCATED BRIT.
errare humanum est perse errarum
diabolicuum est
Get hold of yourself man!

Yes, Peter, but you forgot, dude, before to be Albanians, Albanians themselves were Greeks, haha! So it looks all the same: those ministers are all Greeks. North Ipiros was Greek, just like North Macedonia too, haha!

Socrates,you better learn history.How come 27 out of 57 Prime Ministers of Greece are Albanian?Present President is of Albanian ancestry my dear fellow.It looks like you like to brag about history,yet you know nothing.Go ahead, check your ancestry,you might be very surprised when you find out you are Albanian.

Peter, the economic situation of Skopja is worse than Greece. It isn't worth to mention it there. People would be afraid to know how Gruevski ministers handle a very archaic economy nowadays.

"I think I can rest my case: the 'honest' man would probably prefer to live in Bulgaria, rather than either Makedonija or Greece !"


Seriously? Bulgaria is the worst country among the three you mentioned. It seems you have never been there to see what kind of dealers, mafiosos, prostitution are mixing up there. Thanks to Bulgaria and Romania, EU can be proud of the worst chain of proxenetism ever seen in the last 5 decades. So be careful with your words, dude.

The Greek economy is in shambles.*-10 billion left the country and I quote;"In the last four to six weeks a lot of money has been moved abroad. Ive heard extraordinary figures" analyst Kostas Panagopoulos is quoted as saying by the paper." People are moving funds either because they dont trust our banking system,want to avoid what they fear will be taxes on deposits or are simply anxious about the future of our economy" So far 8-10 billion euros have left Greece.I guess,they think Papandreou might do the same as Karamanlis and Samaras with the black garbage bags.

"before you can say anything about the Macedonians and Albanians,you better find out your ancestry.You are related to Papulias my friend,there are no Greeks.Greece is based on the Albanian people.As I said, check your ancestry,you will be surprised who you are".


Greeks coming from Albanians? What the heck? I think you, crazy dude, never study History in your life. Start to buy a good encyclopedy.

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Socrates,before you can say anything about the Macedonians and Albanians,you better find out your ancestry.You are related to Papulias my friend,there are no Greeks.Greece is based on the Albanian people.As I said, check your ancestry,you will be surprised who you are.

I second what Greek Macedonia Supremacy wrote. The whole story about this artificial country called FYROM can be explained in a few words:

The Skopjans who have been invaded by Albanians for a third of their territory are so afraid to claim themselves as Slavs (because of the Great Albania project) they prefered to be considered as Macedonians, therefore that means as Greeks.

Let's not play more with the words: Skopjans stole the heritage of the Greeks in order to survive in the explosive Balkans. Let's not forget they avoided to take [...]

Read the full comment part of the Yugoslavic wars because of their fear once again. That's so obvious and amazing at the same time how Skopjans strongly believe they can be descendants of the Macedonian conquerors while it's nothing but a coward nation.

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Scipio,I wonder why you are unable to answer one question on my last two comments.Believmy, Greece will come in terms with the fact that the Republic of Macedonia has full right to be called with its constitutional name.Furtheremore,Greece knows, it is loosing in NATO and EU,and it will loose at the ICJ. Greece has no way out,but do the right thing. I love to hear from you if you are familiar with Greeces laws againts the indigenouse Macedonians.Well, I will complete them in short version; 1938,law 2366 bans the use of Macedonian language and strives to erase every trace of [...]

Read the full comment the Macedonian identity. Law 1418 reinforces previous laws on renaming. 1940.39 more place-names Hellenized since 1929. 1945 Law 697 more regulations on renaming toponyms in the Aegean Macedonia. 1947 Law L-2citizens suspected of opposing Greek government in civil war stripped of their citizenship. 1948 Law M properties confiscated from citizens who fought againts government and those accused of assisting. 28,000 CHILD REFUGEES,mostly Macedonians in colaboration between the communists and Greek government moved them to the eastern block countries,with no rights to return to their birth places. Resolution 193C(111) UN resolution calls for repatriation to Greece of Child Refugees. UN.Universal declaration of Human Rights Article 19, Greece has ignored. Decree 504 continues property confiscations of exiled and colonization of the Aegean Macedonia with people from Turkey. 1959 Law 3958 allows confiscation of property of those wdo left Greece and did not return within 5 years.Macedonians were forced to swear "Language Oaths" to speak only Greek and renounce their mother tongue Macedonian.1962 Decree 4234 reinforces past laws of confiscation. 1968 European Commission on Human Rights,accuses Greece of humam rights abuses. 1969 Council of Europe,declaires Greece "undemocratic,illiberal,authoritarian, and oppressive." Greece forced to resigne from Council of Europe under threat of expulsion.Military junta continues the policy of colonization and confiscation of Macedonian lands.1982 Greek internal security police,you are familiar with. Law 106841 political exiles can return provided they are of Greek ethnic origin,Macedonians denied. UN. Universal Declaration of Human Rights Article 17,no one can be deprived of his or hers own property againts their wish.1985 Decree Political exiles of Greek ethnicity can reclaim their property,but not Macedonians. UN Universal Declaration of Human Rights Article 13.everyone has the right to leave any country,including his own,as well as to return to his own country.1986 International writers organization, PEN, condemns Greeces denial of the existance of Macedonians and their language. Greece escalates climate of fear in the Aegean Macedonia.Will continue.

SWIEZY
Thanks for the correct spelling of Berlaymont
The late late Milton Friedmam (Nobel Prize Winner) was a Apostle of Monetarism( (thought it better to replace Central Banks with mechanical rules for monetary growth ((Capital and Freedom)). Controversial at the time with the rule of Fort Knox The most economically successful former republic of the USSR, Estonia, achieved its growth with policies inspired directly by Friedman’s work. “No other economist since Keynes has reshaped the way we think about and use economics as much as Milton Friedman.” Quote from Fortune Economy Encyclopedia. The rest is silent [...]

Read the full comment for analysis of the work of the late Milton Friedman is well beyond the scope of this debate.

Pegyy.
Allow me to intrude.
GMS meant those who allied to the separist SNOF during the 1945-49
Greek civil war
These people are the vestiges of the communist era and are followers of Vinozito Party
which is seated in Florina(GREECE)

Greek Mac Supremacy - I've been following this thread, but am getting a bit confused. When you say
---------------------------------
Ironically, those Skopjans who have hatred feelings towards Greeks have also greek descendants and origins-----------------------

does this mean that they are ethnic Greek Macedonians after all ? If so, your point is a bit of an 'own goal', I would have thought.

Surely you can do better than this.

Scipio -

When you say:

<<<<Milton Friedman. When politicians decide to rule economic and monetary issues, the results are usually catastrophic>>It is a politician's den Bellyermont isn't it ??? >

....you are quite right. But unfortunately the European Economic Community ("Common Market") was set up in 1956 on precisely this basis, and its successor the European Union has retained it in the Berlaymont (note spelling) HQ for the Commission and the $300 million Justus Lipsius HQ for the Council, not to mention the TWO HQs for the European [...]

Read the full comment Parliament, one in Luxembourg and the other in Strasbourg (the latter can fairly and squarely be blamed on the French !)

However, where economists ARE in charge of economic and monetary issues, the results can be even worse. Look at OECD and the government of Hungary for starters, and the Marxist-Leninist economists who were long in charge of the Soviet Union's economic policy.

The latter economists, however, left us a useful exemplar of how one country can operate with two separate currencies (in the case of the USSR, the rouble and the US dollar.) This model might be useful for to Greece and to Germany in the coming months, with a new national currency existing side-by-side with the euro....

Many thanks, Veritas. You got an important point there. Ironically, those Skopjans who have hatred feelings towards Greeks have also greek descendants and origins. They even do not know it and this is the pathetic side of the story...

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Sweize

<<<Milton Friedman. When politicians decide to rule economic and monetary issues, the results are usually catastrophic>>It is a politician's den Bellyermont isn't it ???
or maybe not.
Please do specify mon vieux.

Gruzhina.
My sweet little Georgian of course
Nona Gaprindashvili I recall,
Georgian Grandmaster, she was a Soviet chess Champion for about 6 times i think i also recall one great Armenian and World Champion
of the same area Tigran Petrosian
thank you for making me remember my juveline years.
Cheers

Scipio Africanus,France is on the side of Greece because Greece increased its own dept to the tune of 4-14 billion dollars for armes.Who are they afraid of?.No other neighboring state has more armes as Greece.Of course,they gave 400 old tanks to DR of Congo to change their recognition of the constitutional name of Macedonia. Is this worth it?.Greeces xenophobia is greater than it is. As I promised,"League of Nations for my response.In 1925 Dendramis answer to Serbia and Bulgaria .Serbs and Bulgarians protest to League of Nations. Primer undermines their claim that Macedonians are Serbs and Bulgarians respectively. Greece counters [...]

Read the full comment with last minute cable to League:"the population....knows neither the Serbian nor the Bulgarian language and speaks nothing but a Slav Macedonian idiom."Greece "retreats" so as to preserve Balkan alliances. Primer is destroyed after League of Nations delegates leave Solun. Thereafter, Greece denies existance if Macedonians.Refers to Macedonians as "Slavophone Greeks. 1926,Legislative Orders in Government Gazette #331 orders Macedonian names of towns,villages, mountains changed to Greek names. 1927,Cyrilic inscriptions destroyed or overwritten from churches, tombstones, and icons.Church services in the Macedonian language are outlawed. Macedonians Ordered to Abandon Personal Names and under duress adopt Greek names assigned to them by the Greek state. 1928, 1,497 Macedonian place-names in the Aegean Macedonia Hellenized since 1926. English Journalist V. Hild reveals, "The Greeks do not only presecute living Slavs(Macedonians) but they even presecute dead ones. They do not leave them in peace even in the graves. They erase the Slavonic inscripyions on the headstones, remove the bones and burn them." 1929,Greek government enacts law where any demands for national rights by Macedonians are regarded as high treason. Law 4096 directive on renaming Macedonian place-names. 1936. Reign of terror by fascist dictator General Metaxas, 1936-40 Macedonians suffer state terrorism and pogroms. Thousands of Macedonians jailed, sent to internal exile on arid, inhospitable Greek ilands, where many perish. Their crime? Being ethnic Macedonian by birth. Law6429. reinforces law 4096 on Hellenization of toponyms. Decree 87. accelerate denationalization of Macedonians.Greek ministry of education sends "Specially trained" instructors to accelerate conversion to Greek language. The next article of 1938.Law 23666 will appear.

Scipio - did you read to the end of the article ? It's rather long, and easy to log-out half way by mistake.

Sweazy/peter.
Decide Radical or Conservative
you would ally yourself to the Devil to prove yourself correct
in your anti-hellenic attitude
about the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia's conflict with Greece.
BY THE WAY THE ARTICLE IS NOT GLOOMIER THAN OTHERS THAT I HAVE ALREADY READ.
cheers!

by

Let's await next weeks' planned riots and strikes in Athens against Papandreou's attempts at introducing EU-compliant austerity measures before we post any more.

Most press coverage I have seen over the past couple of days about Greece (except from France) has been pretty negative.

And Scipio - you should watch your generalisations. Makedonija was NEVER involved in the Jugoslav civil war 1991-96; Slovenia was only briefly involved, and it is now an EU member-state.

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To Swieze Malowany: of course, some EU members are angry, because Greece will cost a lot of money and reputation to the Euro and the Eurozone. But the facts are that Greece said that it will find an issue to its financial crisis by itself - and with the little help for coordination of the EU statistics. I can copy paste you dozen of articles showing support and confidence in Greece by EU members and heads of the EU to overcome the situation, that means to reduce the deficit debt. And I already did it by the past...

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In few days Papandreou and Gruevski will resume talks.I see this as progress,but I like to answer to the following individuals;Icognito and Scipio Africanus.First to Icognito;the names were and still are Macedonian,but if you have any problems with this,fight it out with the greeks.We as Indigenouse Macedonians are fighting to get back our names as before 1913. Scipio Africanus,my "friend",are you embarassed by these names?Here I will repeat them;Dendramis,Rallis,Skoulariki,Karakasidou,Grossomanidou former ambassador to Macedonia who spoke the truth and got zaped by Bekoyannis,Vallianatos whose book appeared on Papandreous web site before elections,and lets go in the year of 337-338 BC [...]

Read the full comment what Pericles and Demosthenes have written and said about the differance between the Hellens and Macedonians.If you by any cance consider yourself a smart man,can you at least answer once on their line of thinking,I mean all above without skipping the subjects or better still their thinking?.Scipio Africanus,as I said before,I do know my history as well as yours.The history you have learned is fabricated. This is the dilema greece is facing.The greek history is based as being written by Ottos friend.Otto wanted to glorify the country he is assigned to as their King. He saw,the people of this state were not Hellens,but they were Albanian. In order to unify the state,he came up with the glory of lost Hellens.This is how you have been re-named to Greeks.It looks like you people cannot face the truth.Even today President Sulleyman (Papulias) is Albanian. Greece has no one ethnicity,understand that.

To Swieze Malowany:

"Nobody in the EU "prefers" Greece at the moment - if anything, they would rather than a large hole opened in the Aegean and swallowed the whole place up !

(Actually, wasn't that the basis of the 'Atlantis' legend ? So there may be a historical precedent".

>>>I think this a quite sarcastic comment based on your mythologic imagination I should even not give attention nor credit.

Things said, and I will repeat again, Skopje is what it is: "mikroskopjic" : [...]

Read the full comment it has no influence, no decisive power, fragile politically (much stronger when it was under the Yugoslavic occupation) and is waiting desperately from the EU to open its gates. So I do not see how Skopje change this status, and even more with a muppet as Gruevski, hopes are increasingly diminished...

Supremacy Makedonija Greckiyy -

Ah yes, but you forget I Georgian.
What Georgian would do is:

> Wait till EU Council activate Article 121, so removes Greece vote / veto (is likely in May)

> Start negocations in May when Greece vote disabled

> Greece crisis likely last till middle 2011.
By time Greece vote re-abled, Skopje negotations complete.

Is like Georgian chess game. Georgia always good chess player. Also Stalin Dzugashvili Georgian, and he ochen [...]

Read the full comment clever diplomat.

Not sure Makejoniani good chess player. Maybe Tflisi send some help, if they buy Georgia wine.

Georgia also have unpleasant neighbors, so sympathize Makedonija.

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To Gruzhnia:

No apologize for something you interprete wrongly. It seems you are unable to understand what I wrote you. I will developp it simply in those terms:

1/Is there a name dispute nowadays?
>YES

2/Can this article avoid the name dispute to be an obstacle of the EU of Skopje?

>NO:

3/Why?

Skopje has still not started the negociations in december because of Greece.

So you got your answer [...]

Read the full comment now.

This comment has been hidden by the moderator because it contained авторски права.

Peter you forget that you are BULGARIAN

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To Koinos Nous/Swieze Malowany:

<< But there is no doubt that a Greece that is evidently weakened in European institutions such as the European Commission and the European Parliament, will have significantly less political capital to press for diplomatic solutions to its liking. If Greece does not act quickly to restore confidence in its economy, the country's diplomatic clout will be similarly undermined >>

The implications as regards the Macedonia name issue are, I think, pretty obvious".

>>>Not really... Skopje is not enough big and important in the [...]

Read the full comment international scene to become an obstacle of Greece's will. The EU does not really care of Skopje and it is obvious it prefers by far Greece, an EU partner since 1981 than a poor - non EU-NATO member - unstable country as Skopje, or else Greece would have no support from France, Germany, etc for the name dispute...

No, what Kathimerini was meaning: where Greece's influence can be diminished by its financial crisis is against Turkey regarding the sea borders conflict, the cyprus issue and the EU negociations.

To Gruzhnia:

"Very interesting to read all posts. One thing worries me. I read:

"There is also the minor detail that Article 121 of the Lisbon Treaty - already invoked by Brussels - doesn't just invalidate the Greek "veto", it also invalidates the Greek vote on the measures concerned. Not sure that Athens fully realises this yet...."

Is true or not true ?

If is true, no point in this discussion any more. I read Lisbon Treaty, and looks like could be true. But [...]

Read the full comment I not expert in EU things."

>>>Be logical: if Skopje had a such power, there would have been no name dispute anymore, since Greece would have not the possibility to block the EU aspirations of Skopje.
So the name dispute is still there and such a thing does not exist and is part of what I call "silly inventions".

Scipio - you forget the Colonels Regime in Greece from 1967 onwards, when Greece dropped out of NATO and UN participation. UN memories are long.

Also you mention Civil War in Macedonia ? What Civil War ? Macedonia was the only former Yugoslav state to quit the Federation without any bloodshed - even Slovenia had some.

Before commenting any further, maybe you should get your facts straight ?

This quotation from a recent Greek newspaper "Kathimerini" (5 Feb, English edition), seems to confirm Greece's recent loss of diplomatic influence in Brussels and elsewhere:

<< But there is no doubt that a Greece that is evidently weakened in European institutions such as the European Commission and the European Parliament, will have significantly less political capital to press for diplomatic solutions to its liking. If Greece does not act quickly to restore confidence in its economy, the country's diplomatic clout will be similarly undermined >>

The implications as regards the Macedonia name [...]

Read the full comment issue are, I think, pretty obvious.

Sweazie/peter
FYROM is one of the worst performing European countries which together with some other former Yugoslav Republics share a low index of democracy. In the Economist Intelligence Unit's Index of Democracy 2008, Greece sits at position 22, close to France, the United Kingdom and the United States of America, as a full democracy . The Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia (FYROM) sits at position 72, under Flawed Democracies. It is in the general vicinity of the other former Yugoslav republics and Albania, all caught up in the nationalist struggles that caused the break-up of Yugoslavia. It is [...]

Read the full comment highly unlikely the Security Council will support a state that had recently lapsed into civil war and betray one of the original UN members Greece, which so far has a good record and a strong pacifist movement. To this one may add the low indices for FYROM in the Freedom House categories of Freedom of Press, Civil Liberties and Political Rights. Taken together, FYROM will have a hard time convincing the United Nations, European Union and NATO that it is not dragging its feet over its reluctance to cast behind its irredentist and nationalistic attitudes no matter what the ICJ decides.

Very interesting to read all posts. One thing worries me. I read:

"There is also the minor detail that Article 121 of the Lisbon Treaty - already invoked by Brussels - doesn't just invalidate the Greek "veto", it also invalidates the Greek vote on the measures concerned. Not sure that Athens fully realises this yet...."

Is true or not true ?

If is true, no point in this discussion any more. I read Lisbon Treaty, and looks like could be true. But I not expert in EU things. [...]

Read the full comment

Well said, Macedonia for the Greeks Only. I could not agree more with that statement. There are days I am still thinking what Skopje has to do with Macedonia and how those people can think they are Macedonians. What I understand from all this unfortunate joke is that old bad politics from fanatic leads like Tito can create unretrievable damages to the young generations...

FYROM have been brain washed by there government since their country was created by Tito in 1940s, thinking that they are the descent of the Ancient Macedonians who are Greek at the first place. I think that the meeting in London is just another waste of time for the Greeks. FYROM are living in a fantasy and must realise that they are just slavs who come into Europe in the 6th Century AD and are not the real Macedonians who are Greeks at the first place. Today FYROM, a population of just 2 million are mixed of Slavs, Albanians, Serbs [...]

Read the full comment and Muslims. FYROM must find a new name for its country and leave history as it is, in the past.

No, Veritas Vincit

"We have no connection to Alexander the Greek and his Macedonia. The ancient Macedonians no longer exist, they had disappeared from history long time ago. Our ancestors came here in the 5th and 6th century (AD)."
Quote from FYROM'S President Mr.

Kiro Gligorov.
(from the Toronto Star newspaper, March 15, 1992)

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Sorry - I forgot to add for Scipio:

"Grecia Delanda Est"

..et Macedonia vincit.

Scipio - the EU is all about money and economics - that's why it was originally called the "Common Market".

Those Greeks to whom "money does not matter" (your phrase) will therefore be quite happy if Greece is forced to quit the EuroZone ?
Nice to know....

Macedonia will be also very happy if that happens (Back On Topic, Moderators !)

Peter
o not forget to mention
Dendramis
rallis
et pour desert
with SKOULARIKI
AND KARAKASSIDOU
Carthago delenda est

Swieze Malowane
A Greek ranting? you better not be there and in the vincinity of a mile.
Not Crossed disgusted.
Simplement et carrement degoute
mon vieux.
To some "people" money-matters prevail to some not.
Cheers!

Yeah Peter, we all know that history, but 90% of the "Macedonians" that the Greeks kicked out after the 1913 war went to Bulgaria.
There is a reason for that.
Macedonians, Thracians - those are just locations - they were all Bulgarians.
We in turn kicked out many Greeks, mainly from the Black Sea region, which was mostly Greek at the time.
So if you go to the BG south coast, you'll see those so called "Macedonians" living in traditionally Greek towns, building their homes facing inland, betraying their attachment to land [...]

Read the full comment and fear of the sea, obviously missing their northern Greece farm lands.

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Peter you forget that Skopje changed the names of its villages from the greek to bulgarian

To:Valeri and Scipio Africanus. Greek Laws and Decrees;The following chronicles the method employed by Greece in its effort to eradicate the centuries old Macedonian ethnic presence in the Argean Macedonia in the name of Greek territorial expansion. Specific laws and decrees are presented againts the backdrop of relevant historical events affecting Macedonians in the Aegean Macedonia.The chronology begins with the year 1912 when Greece, for the first time ever, comes into possession of Macedonian territory by force of arms.Almost a decade had passed since the 1903 Ilinden Uprising lead by the IMRO(Internal Macedonian Revolutionary Organization) in a failed effort to [...]

Read the full comment free Macedonia from the Ottoman yoke.The ominous prophecy of Harilaos Trokoupis, Greek Prime Minister from 1882-1895, foretold what the neighboring Greek state had in mind for Macedonia and its people:"When the great war comes, Macedonia will become Greek or Bulgarian, according to who wins.If it is taken by the Bulgarians, they will take the population Slavs. If we take it, we will make all of them Greeks".In 1912 Irredentist Greece, Serbia Bulgaria and Montenegro drive a crumbling Ottoman Empire out of the Balkans and pursue territorial expansion into Macedonia. Greek army enters Aegean Macedonia ostensibly to "liberate" Macedonia from the Ottomans. 1913,Greek, Serbian,Bulgarian alliance breaks down over competing claims for Macedonia. Bulgaria miscalculates and attacks Serbia and Greek armies. Ottoman forces rejoin war againts Bulgaria. Bulgaria defeated, loses territorial gains in Macedonia. From "Liberation to tyrany", Greek army commeces savage and blody "ethnic cleansing" of the towns of Kukush, Doiran, Demir-Hisar and Serres in the Aegean Macedonia.160 Macedonian villages burned, and atrocities committed. Mass exodus of refugees.Treaty of Bucharest ends the war and partiyions Macedonia. Greece refers to conquered Macedonian lands as the "new territories" under "military administration". Not yet officially incorporated into the Kingdom of Greece. Professor R.A. Reiss reports to the Greek government:"Those whom you would call Bulgarian speakers I would simply call Macedonians... Macedonian is not the language they speak in Sofia.. I repeat the mass of inhabitants there (Macedonia) remain simply Macedonians" 1917 LAW 1051, Greece inaugurates new administrative juriediction for governing newly aquired lands in the Aegean Macedonia. 1919 Treaty of Versailles (Paris): England and France ratify the principles of the Bucharest Treaty and endorses the partitioning o Macedonia.Article 51 of Treaty of Versailles espouses equality of civil rights, education, language, and religion for all national minorities which Greece violates and ignores. Neully Convention and forced exchange of populations. About 70,000 Macedonians expelled from the Aegean Macedonia to Bulgaria and 25,000 Greeks transplanted from Bulgaria to Aegean Macedonia. 1920, Greek Ministry of Internal Affaires published booklet:"Advice On The Change of The Names of Municipalities And Villages"in Aegean Macedonia.1925, 76 names of Macedonian villages and towns in the Aegean Macedonia Hellenized since 1918 by Greek authorities. On my next comments I will give you a tast of the "League of Nations"

Don't get cross, Scipio, it doesn't suit you to rant like that.

The plain fact is that most modern politics is dictated by economics and markets (Karl Marx was right about that, at least), and not by 'philotimo' or concepts of a spurious national honour. Everywhere, perhaps, except the Balkans, where ancient blood-feuds and ethnic rivalries still seem to apply, and not just in Greece.

Under the current circumstances Greece is going to have to endure a bit of a "baptism of fire" into the modern economic world, and - as I [...]

Read the full comment said earlier - the Macedonia name issue is THE VERY LEAST OF ITS PROBLEMS.

There is also the minor detail that Article 121 of the Lisbon Treaty - already invoked by Brussels - doesn't just invalidate the Greek "veto", it also invalidates the Greek vote on the measures concerned. Not sure that Athens fully realises this yet....

Tough, but true, "Trudno", as they say in the Czech Republic, but then (as another small EU nation) they don't have any of these problems, not least as they know how to run their economy.

Shouting "MOLON LABE" - "come and get us" - at the outside world, may have suited the Ancient Greeks at Thermopylae, but it doesn't work now.

Macedonia must be wondering how the Good Lord put such a prize into their lap, not least because they don't deserve it !

Cornelius/koinosnous/seamus/vlado/pravda/peter/ Swieze Malowany have i missed any?
God knows what other ... follow
Are you still harping your anti-hellenic harp hearing your favorite populistic tune
it may look propaganda to you "Brits" who are 3000 miles away but for us here in the Balkans it's principles.
Fyrom is doomed if it continues the Antiquisation crap the Albanians are not next
door they are within the Walls of Jericho not to mention the ones out of them ( Kossovo
and the Great Albania aspiration of Tiranna.) .
[...]

Read the full comment As for the fiddling you mention it is Greek common practice to fiddle around and sing on dear and difficult circumstances it has been so since the most remote Antiquity up to
our times Pindar(odes),.Aeschylus, Sophocles through Seferis, Elitis , and Ritsos revealing a deep sense of the vicissitudes of life with passion and occasionally fiddling around in mockery, Aristophanes through modern leitmotif play writers.
This is our tradition FOR OVER 2700 YEARS AND MAYBE MORE that is exactly why there
exist Philhellenes and Greek haters like yourself .
by the way relevant comment about Pindar
His house in Thebes became a landmark long after his death, especially when Alexander the Great demolished the rest of the city, leaving the house spectacularly intact in gratitude for some verses praising his ancestor, king Alexander I of Macedon
you should understand more about Hellenistic world my man By the way the name is not "Bahtria" very good decoy Peter but "Bactria" . Google Greco-Bactrian _Kingdom and see for yourself.

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Valeri
yes! you are quite right seeing the issue as you actually do.

Why not?
I like that he's posting so much. We need to hear people like Peter.
There are still so many Bulgarians who either don't care (90%) or support FYROM and they need to see how dangerous those ex-Yugoslavs really are.
Just because they speak like us, and look like us, we shouldn't feel close and support them, because at this point they are damaged goods.

They have been infected with that Yugoslav virus of ethnic/genetic hair splitting and 19th century nationalism.
Can you see any difference between [...]

Read the full comment Serbs, Croats or Bosnians?
Zero!
Yet they killed 1/4 of a million of each other's, (at the close of the 20th century!!!) civilians over those exact issues - land history, and pseudo-genealogy..

Let him post about how we are occupying his inheritance from Alexander the Great - it's perfect actually...

Valeri
The guy has his own crooked way of thinking and will continue ranting all along ad infinitum
delenda est.
ignore him.

Take it back - 98 years of anti-Bulgarian propaganda - 1913 -- 2010.

100 almost years of non-stop banging on your head that you are not what you are, can convince any nation that they even come from Mars...

good nigh, brate;0

Peter my old maan
when you are cornered you always backfire
Now i can say
Cathago Delenda est

Peter,
that was an ironic comment on my part making fun of people that label stuff "only in Bulgaria" when it cones to corruption and say that they are ashamed. Read the "Oops,sory,got confused.)))." part? It's a joke - have you heard of those?
You are playing different tunes in that you are bringing my personal unrelated posts on one hand, on the other you are saying: "According to the editors on this site,we should be dissusing on the subject of Greece-Macedonia meettings,not personal issues."
Make up your mind.

The [...]

Read the full comment Greeks are not claiming that you, in FYROM are Greek, they are saying that the Macedonians were Greeks, and you in FYROM have nothing to do with the Hellenistic kingdom of Macedon. You are 100% Bulgarians, but 80 years of anti-Bulgarian propaganda has prompted you to look for identity in other's people's backyards....

Scipio,you dont even have a drop of blood from the ancient Hellens let along from the Macedonians. Please, stop the mythical nonesens.

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Valeri,is the following comment is it you? "Valeri,shame on Bulgaria! Bulgaria doesnt belong in the EU! Corrupt criminals! Oops,sory,got confused.))). Is this your comment on Jan.15,2010? Are you playing two different tunes?. On the Cyrilic alphabet,it is Macedonian alphabet,period! According to the editors on this site,we should be dissusing on the subject of Greece-Macedonia meettings,not personal issues.The problem I find is your constant harping that Macedonians are Bulgarians. The problem is,the Greeks are claiming we are Greeks.The fact is, we are Macedonians!

"Does it bother you so much that we are different than you?"

No it bothers me that you are NOT different at all.

You are the same people and only socialist brainwashing back in Yugoslavia, has turned you into some imaginary ancient nation of Macedon - it's very embarrassing actually. The Byzantines commissioned the Cyrillic alphabet to entice us you and us - us, to accept Christianity from them - very unfortunate if you ask me, had we accepted it from Rome, and used the latin alphabet, which was very close to [...]

Read the full comment happening, we probably would've integrated with Europe much sooner, and better.

With love from "Republic of Thrace";)

Macedonians indeed....

Valeri,you and your friend Scipio should look to Bahtria,not Macedonia.Does it bother you so much that we are different than you?.Macedonia gave you the light with the Kirilica,but dont worry,we dont mind."Sfienata makarona"reflects on you and your thinking.You cant stand the truth.Read what Zhelev said,your former President.The papers wrote about his comment "Former President Zhelev speald the beans" the comment "Greece should be ashamed".I believe,Greece will come to terms with the recognition of the Republic of Macedonia soon.Talks are still going on.Valeri,let go of the communist past.Social Democrats are just that.I prefer democracy.

Valeri
Very nice "крив макарон" много ми харесва i like the parallelism
i have a vivid imagination and can imagine our good old friend Peter
on one end of the twisted macaron
trying to have a glimpse of EU
it must be wquite difficult to install a system of mirrors to refract the light.

You can take your minority issues to the Greeks, but 99.9% of all Bulgarians do speak "Macedonian" already, because it's our language - only difference is that we still call it "Bulgarian" whereas you have, for some bazar reason, named it after the ancient kingdom of Macedon, which didn't speak that language, nor had they even heard of Slavs, the only connection being some obscure chunk of real estate that they used to occupy back in the bronze era....
You keep talking about Greek and Bulgarian occupied "Macedonia" and will indeed see the EU through "крив макарон", or [...]

Read the full comment do you need translation....

Valeri,exacly what I am saying. The EU has put forth steps for Macedonias accsession to the EU.One of the most reasent is; "Its good for minorities to speak only their mother tonque and become segregated within Macedonian society."This comment made by Knut Volleback who is supported by Fouere.Are these people realy representing the European idials? Why are they not going after Greeces Human Rights abuses of the Macedonian minority,and the Bulgarian as well?.The Macedonian Minister of education is right to start the Albanian school children learning Macedonian language. This will improve their cances when they comlete school to get better [...]

Read the full comment job positions,as being pointed out the Macedonian business community speaks 99.9% Macedonian.I wish Greece and Bulgaria did the same. In the country I live,my first priority was to learn the language so I can make better living for my family.I dont regret knowing 5 languages myself.I must admitt,I got litle rusty on some because most of the time I use two languages,English and Macedonian for the last 50 years.The Prime Ministers of Macedonia and Greece must discuss this issue when they get together.As for Scipios answers,he is skipping the real questions as you do.Today, I live in a country that has the best democracy in the world.Regardles where you come from,you can learn your own language,go to a church of your choice and associate with whom you please.Our Balkans are centuries behind.We all trying to hang onto ancestry forgetting that whole history has been fabricated by one or the others.This can be solved by getting historians from Bulgaria,Greece and Macedonia,and solve it once for all.Greece is unwilling to do this.Macedonia did suggested it to Greece.I must say one more thing,the EU does not want slavic speaking countries into EU.Just look what are they doing to Bulgaria and Macedonia.

"We are Slavs who came to this area in the sixth century ... we are not descendants of the ancient Macedonians."

Quote from FYROM'S President Mr. Kiro Gligorov.
(from the Foreign Information Service Daily Report, Eastern Europe,
February 26, 1992, p. 35. )

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Valeri
I hope wholeheartly that the majority of people who live in Fyrom do not have the same attitude of populistic perceptuiion as Peter if yes
the whole BALKANS have a problem
as you correctly point out
thanks!!

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Peter:

"Tell me,what procentage in todays Greece there are Albanians, and how many ancient Hellens? I will answer it for you; More than 40% are Albanians,no Hellens exist."

I am sure Scipio will answer for himself, but if I may:

Peter, the constant harping on, what is essentially GENETIC, not ETHNIC identity, is what makes this new Yugoslav nation of FYROM so dangerous. With every post you are cementing anyone reading's conviction that the name issue is important and needs to be checked by Greece.

[...]

Read the full comment /> Personally, until Gruev (ski) I was one of, what was then majority Bulgarians, who were completely on the side of FYROM and wanted to bring them into asap the NATO EU mix, and couldn't comprehend Greece's, what we saw as petty vindictiveness. I've come to see that the Greeks are right and this is nothing more than the continuation of the terrible Yugoslav saga. Get on with fixing your country, not agrivating your neighbors pointlessly...

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FYROM would have desintegrated long time before this would ever happen... Albania, Greece, Bulgaria will eat the three parts of the cake and this geographical aberration called Skopjaland will be deleted from the map.

The Republic of Macedonia will retake Aegean Macedonia in 2013 and this dispute shall be over. Say goodbye to Solun you silly greeks

and you Elena have no right to tell Macedonian Greeks that they are not Macedonian. Greece recognises the Greek identity of Macedonian culture...go find another culture to steal.

Not a minority?

The UN called them such and in the CERD judgment against Greece in September 2009, told Greece to recognize them.

The idea that a government can determine whether a person is a minority or not runs contrary to UN Human Rights. If I lived in Greece like my grandparents did - you have no right to tell me I am not a Macedonian - it is a violation of my human rights.

Alas Greece has shown over and over that they have little respect for [...]

Read the full comment those values. Perhaps Takis Michas is right; Greece is not a Western country - it is Middle Eastern.

"Valeri, you must be on the Bulgarian payroll. Your style is very sophisticated. Do you work for the special police."

Special police?

Isn't all police "special" as of "special needs"? No I detest cops of any sort. No normal person becomes a cop, and I don't care the country. It's nice though that we've finally arrived at my favorite subject - me;)

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Valeri, you must be on the Bulgarian payroll. Your style is very sophisticated. Do you work for the special police.

Bulgarian people get it through your thick skulls. MACEDONIA is free.

Now lets move on..

Sorry about the last two lines in previous post they are irrevalent

<<<The Makedonians in BG are Bulgarians living within the geographical location of ancient Macedonia - not a Slavic entity.
They are not a minority, anymore that those living within the geographical areas of ancient Thrace.
That kind of thinking is a classic Yugoslav vintage, and the Greeks are right to try to stop it, for if unchecked, it could contaminate the rest of us with the Yugoslav sickness that claimed 250,000 lives in the 90s. >>>

well said Valeri !!!!!

They should be stopped and will be stopped [...]

Read the full comment should the need arise
by axe and by fire




Considering that our languages are essentially the same, what books are you talking about?

Prespa:
"Valerie,I am from the Greek part of Macedonia."

Oh I always make it a point to believe everything people post about themselves on the internet.

If that's the case, why did your Macedonian village use the Greek word for foreigners "xeni"? Why not the FYROM (Bulgarian) version?



Besides no Slavic speaker would call me "Valerie" - that's the western version of the name, commonly used for women...

The recognition of our people is a parallel issue created by our naive PM and his antiquisationists. Before he brought the issue of a connection to Al.Veliki and his Greek speaking people our identity as Macedonians was always accepted for what it is - a Slavic ethnicity separate from the ancient & modern Makedones of Greece. Yes there are many Slavic speaking Macedonians in Greece but they are like us of a Slavic heritage NOT Greek and certainly not ancient. Compromise for our constitutional name has always been an ambiguous path for our governments policy never really knowning what to [...]

Read the full comment do but resist everything (on the orders of the diaspora). Soon we will receive a geographic qualifier whilst preserving our Slavic roots stemming from the great revolutionaries Delchev & co. Their unwavering determination to save our people from tyranny was the seed to our identity and without them we would possibly have taken a different historical course. Delchev & co. always supported our Slavic ethnicity whilst aknowledging that Macedonians of other ethnicites like Greeks, Vlachs, Roma, etc., were equally part of our identity. As far as Delchev loved his Bulgarian origins he always warned of those who would betray fellow Macedonians regardless of their Bulgarian, Greek, Vlach, Roma, etc., heritages for the sake of political gain and manouvering. Our Macedonian Youth throughout Macedonia today are finally educated enough to read the scriptures of Delchev, Gruev, Sarafov, etc., in their original Bulgarian texts to evaluate, contextualize and critically analyze just what our proud leaders were thinking of at the time of our national birth. Soon we will continue our drive on the Universtiy campuses for more government freedom on our media, student groups, and of course politcal expression without the fear of the late night knock on the door by our governments right wing police.

Long Live Vasko Gligorov, the Macedonian Youth & SDSM.

<< Yes I agree with you on some of your comments on the last posting. Your second posting is not true. In 1995 agreement, Macedonia changed its constitution on two very importent issues.1)The flag,2)Territorial asspirations-recognising the present borders. On the name of the airport,Greece named the Salonika airport to Alexander the Great Greece does not have the exclusive rights on ancient names.>>
My man when referring to a historical person who created an empire and when historians attribute to him the identity of being of Greek = Hellenic stock then yes the rights are exclusive
<< [...]

Read the full comment On the Bulgaria-Macedonia problem The Macedonian territories were divided amongs Greece ,Serbia , Bulgaria and a small part to Albania.>>
Wrong again my old man the Geographical area which was sought to be Ancient Macedonia the one Romans divided into Prima and Salutaris in 143 BC the in question area between Paeonia roughly the area around today’s Skopje and was populated by Greeks,Turks, Bulgars, Serbs, Vlachs , Koutsovlachs, Aromanians ,and some Albanians,that geographical area was divided and not Macedonian territories as you say.
<<With the disentregation of Yugoslavja, Macedonia declaird independance, and became an independent State. This part of Macedonia from 1913 to 1944 was treated the same way as Greece is treating the Macedonian minority in Greece. With Bulgaria that continues even today, non recognition of the Macedonian minority. In 1945 in Bulgaria the Macedonians did enjoy all the rights same as the Bulgarians. >>
Again the same error Macedonia “declaird” declared independence it was the Socialist Republic of Macedonia that declared autonomy on former Yugoslavia under the provisional name Former Yugoslav Republic of Yugoslavia . Sorry to hear that you where treated badly by the nomenclatura although well deserved . in Bulgaria all inhabitants of the Blagoevgrad district are Bulgarian citizens and there was no and is no minority whatsoever that you imply.
<<<There were Macedonian schools , Macedonian books etc >>>
There were Bulgarian schools and books
<<<Remember one thing, the first post 2nd world war President of Bulgaria was Georgi Dimitrov who was Macedonian by ethnicity>>>
Georgi Dimitrov Mikhaylov : (June 18, 1882 - July 2, 1949) was a Bulgarian co founder of the Communist party (1919) born in Kovachevtsi in today's Pernik Province, as the first of eight children to working-class parents who had ties with the Pirrin . I think his mother was a protestant the family moved to Razlog and Sofia, Dimitrov

Valerie,I am from the Greek part of Macedonia. In my home town there were two Pontiac families,we called them "xeni"or foreighners.My whole village was and spoke Macedonian. no one can tell me I am other than Macedonian.Your comments on this issue are false.I am not willing to argue other than the truth.You can continue your free speach as anybody else,but concentrate on the truth.

Valeri,I dont know in what planet you are.

"The talks between Macedonia and Greece should be more on how to improve the lives of the people in the Balkans.Wars have devastated this area,enought is enought.Lets get to the rael things that matter."

Exactly, so stop with the provocations, by projecting future territorial aspirations in every post, based of ancient history, with which your, (our) people had nothing to do with.

Gruzhnia,here is the differance on the name and flags. The discoveries made in Northern Greece "Macedonia" are found only there.Non of these discoveries were made in the Greek part before 1913.The sun of Virgina has a red background,Greece uses blue to match their flag.The Greek falsifications are endless.Scotland uses the "Lion,"Macedonia does as well.As for the people of "Pirin" Macedonia,they did use the Macedonian alphabet.I can tell you,I learned my Macedonian after the 2nd world war from books published in Bulgaria and from the Federal Yugoslav Socialist Republic of Macedonia.Both books were same.Further,just because you learn a language in different [...]

Read the full comment language,does not make you as such.For one instance;A great Macedonian Misirkov completed his 6th grade in Greek.When you read his writtings, you will see that he is a Macedonian.His last wish after returning from Russia to Bulgaria was to be able to die in his birth place of Macedonia in 1926.We can argue on variaty if subjects,but the truth is Greece and Bulgaria are fabricating the truth.As I have said before,the indigenouse Macedonians in Greece and Bulgaria are treated as second class citizens,with no rights to their own schools,language,freedom of association.In Greece,the church dictates even the names of a newborn.Greek priests refuse to register the newborn according to their parents wishes.When a parent asks for "Vasil,Pando,Petre,Giorgy etc."The Greek priest refuses to register that name,unless it is;"Vasilis,Pandelis,Petros,Giorgos"These names are not Macedonian.On the Macedonian expension,was it not the Salonica bishop who said that they must go after Bitola?.I rest my case on this subject.The talks between Macedonia and Greece should be more on how to improve the lives of the people in the Balkans.Wars have devastated this area,enought is enought.Lets get to the rael things that matter.

Peter mentions Republic of Georgia. This country has two issues of conflict with Western states, similar maybe to Makedonija,

First is flag. Georgia flag is Cross of St George - red cross on white background. So, unfortunately, is flag of England. But Georgia was founded centuries before England, so Georgia has right to flag.

Second is name of state. USA also has state named Georgia, but our Georgia was founded nearly two thousand years before US imitator, so original Georgia has right to name. Also causes consumer confusion when tasting wine, as [...]

Read the full comment both real Georgia and 'fake' US Georgia make wine and sell it on international market.

Problem needs solution. Georgia cannot join NATO as neighbour Russia gets cross, so maybe another way ?

Article 10 of the Interim Accord has room for some subjective interpretations. If you think that Macedonia has not shown good neighborly relations - you need to take that to the ICJ yourself as clause 21 of the Accord states.

You can't say "We don't agree with Macedonia on issue 'X' therefore they aren't showing good neighborly relations". You would need the ICJ to determine that for you in line with Article 21 of the Accord.

In any case - it is hardly a defense for Greece's own violation of the Accord. [...]

Read the full comment Could any Greek stand up and honestly say "We didn't oppose Macedonia's entry into the EU or NATO"? Because that act in itself violated the Accord.

Macedonia did not seek to join NATO or the EU as 'Republic of Macedonia'; they used 'former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia' - so any opposition by Greece is illegal in the context of the Accord.

The Makedinians in BG are Bulgarians living within the geographical location of ancient Macedonia - not a Slavic entity.
They are not a minority, anymore that those living within the geographical areas of ancient Thrace.
That kind of thinking is a classic Yugoslav vintage, and the Greeks are right to try to stop it, for if unchecked, it could contaminate the rest of us with the Yugoslav sickness that claimed 250,000 lives in the 90s.

Considering that our languages are essentially the same, what books are you talking about?
[...]

Read the full comment

Did Veritas previously write for the English-language version of PRAVDA in the old Communist days ?

His contributions contain exactly the same verbose style: never use only one word where twelve will do instead. Especially when he goes on about "collectivist groupthink" (whatever that is !)

Scipio Africanos,Yes I agree with you on some of your comments on the last posting. Your second posting is not true.In 1995 agreement,Macedonia changed its constitution on two very importent issues.1)The flag,2)Territorial asspirations-recognising the present borders. On the name of the airport,Greece named the Salonika airport to Alexander the Great.Greece does not have the exclusive rights on ancient names.Throughout the world,there are centers and towns called;Athens,Macedonia,Paris etc.There are even countries named Georgia-US state of Georgia.Are we going to war over names?.On the Bulgaria-Macedonia problem;The Macedonian territories were divided amongs Greece,Serbia,Bulgaria and a small part to Albania.With the disentregation of Yugoslavja,Macedonia [...]

Read the full comment declaird independance,and became an independent State.This part of Macedonia from 1913 to 1944 was treated the same way as Greece is treating the Macedonian minority in Greece.With Bulgaria that continues even today,non recognition of the Macedonian minority.In 1945 in Bulgaria the Macedonians did enjoy all the rights same as the Bulgarians.There were Macedonian schools,Macedonian books etc.Remember one thing, the first post 2nd world war President of Bulgaria was Georgi Dimitrov who was Macedonian by ethnicity.Yes he was a communist,but dont you think, in todays democracy should be even better for all?.I alway hrar what who said from the Macedonian side "Gligorov,Crvenkovski"etc.Mr Crvenkovski was the beneficiary of the 130 million payout by the Greek government according to Mitsotakis.This is true with all the Lobbyists all over the world.Every country is being run by Lobbyists.As my last comment,I do tip my hat to you for referring to Macedonia as Republic of Macedonia.On your second comment is reversed to "FYROM" My last comment on Spaska Mitrova. She holds dual citizenships,and as such she is Macedonian living in Macedonia and with Macedonian husband ,according to the Bulgarian Minister on dual citizenships.

Peter take a good look below
At the beginning of June 2009 the means of mass communication spread the news relevant to one of the many uncivilized political acts in Skopje. Every citizen of Republic of Macedonia, who has Bulgarian ethnical descent and self -consciousness and a Bulgarian passport, suffers specific humiliations in case he travels to Bulgaria.
“The passport war” of Skopje is only one element in the global anti-Bul­ga­rian campaign which is led towards the Bulgarian culture near Vardar, already two de­cades the name “Bulgarian” has been criminalized and not permitted in the offi­cial [...]

Read the full comment state statistics; citizens having Bulgarian national self -consciousness were fired and are still being fired, public organizations by Bulgarians were disrupted and forbidden and their newspapers were stopped from being published; people were sued, fined and even put in prison only because they showed their Bulgarian na­tional self-consciousness.
A similar policy is pursued at the beginning of XXI c. by a state power that claims to observe the criteria of EU and requires an access to membership in the organization.
The Macedonian scientific institute in Sofia, not for the first time, presents to the attention of the Bulgarian public and state authorities the necessity of development a new policy regarding the Republic of Macedonia. It should contain several obligatory steps which could be organized in the following sequence:
1. A new official vision for the relationship with the Republic of Ma­ce­do­nia which to be announced at the highest political level in the state and also pre­sen­ted to our political partners in Brussels.
2. The conception should contain an evaluation of the situation of Bul­ga­rians in the Federal Republic of Macedonia after the Second world war and es­pe­cial­ly after the former Yugoslavian republic became an independent country.
3. The topic which should be officially discussed is about the citizens who vo­luntarily showed their Bulgarian national self-consciousness and their rights to be guaranteed in the Constitution.
4. A statement that Bulgaria will take care for the observing of the in­di­vi­dual rights of Bulgarians in the Republic of Macedonia and the rights of their asso­cia­tions and organizations according to the norms and standards of the EU.

Peter my good man

In 1995 Greece and the FYROM signed a United Nations-brokered Interim Accord that, among other things, commits them to not "support claims to any part of the territory of the other party or claims for a change of their existing frontiers";
Whereas a pre-eminent goal of the United Nations Interim Accord was to stop the FYROM from utilizing, since its admittance to the United Nations in 1993, what the Accord calls, "propaganda", including in school textbooks;
Whereas a television report in recent years showed students in a state-run [...]

Read the full comment school in the FYROM still being taught that parts of Greece, including Greek Macedonia, are rightfully part of the FYROM;
Whereas some textbooks, including the Military Academy textbook published in 2004 by the Military Academy "General Mihailo Apostolski" in the FYROM capital city, contain maps showing that a "Greater Macedonia" extends many miles south into Greece to Mount Olympus and miles east to Mount Pirin in Bulgaria;
Whereas in direct contradiction of the spirit of the United Nations Interim Accord's section "A", entitled "Friendly Relations and Confidence Building Measures", which attempts to eliminate challenges regarding "historic and cultural patrimony", the Government of FYROM recently renamed the capital city's international airport "Alexander the Great";
Whereas the aforementioned acts constitute a breach of the FYROM's international obligations deriving from the spirit of the United Nations Interim Accord, which provides that FYROM should abstain from any form of "propaganda" against Greece's historical or cultural heritage;
Whereas such acts are not compatible with the Article 10 of the United Nations Interim Accord regarding "improving understanding and good neighbourly relations", as well as with European standards and values endorsed by European Union member-states; and
Whereas this information, like that exposed in the media report and elsewhere, being used contrary to the United Nations Interim Accord instills hostility and a rationale for irredentism in “portions” of the population of the FYROM toward Greece and the history of Greece:
See you in Carthago1!!!!!1



sEE YOU

Valeri
Yes!!!! Can one aargue with such
an expert on linguistic
He must be one of the team that
described the Coptic(demotic) inscriptions on the Rosetta Stone as being an "Ancient Macedonian Script"

Scipio Africanos,Was Markos Alfliadis a pro Greek government that on his return was greeted by 50 thousand people in Athens rail station?.He was the head of the communist party of Greece.Furtheremore,it was him who decided to expell the Macedonian children from ages of one month to 14 years. This would have been much more easy to Hellenise the older population,and extinction of the Macedonian people.Mr.the reasons of not allowing the Macedonians back to their birth places is exactly that.Did Greece succeed? I dont think so! Things are changing in Europe,both countries are talking,both have their red lines.But lets see what [...]

Read the full comment the Europeans are saying about this subject.I hope you will have a chance to read it. "IT IS PAST TIME FOR MACEDONIA TO JOIN NATO" These are the words of Sally McNamara who is a Senior Policy Analyst in European Affaires in the Margaret Thatcher Center for Freedom. "Greece continues to block Macedonias NATO membership and has extended its obstuctionism to Skojes ambitions to accede to the EU, despite widespread support in the region and from broader Euro-Atlantic community.The US must work with Macedonias allies within NATO to push their accession up the agenda and pressure Greece to abide by NATOs long standing precedent that one country does not block anothers membership on a purely bilateral matter.Greece assrrts that the Republic of Macedonia gives the nation a territorial claim over Greeces northern region of same name.Greece undoubtely has the upper hand, unashamedly wielding its veto power over Macedonias accession despite a 1995 interim accord between the two nations agreeing not to do so. Furthere, Macedonia having recently increased its troop commitment to 250 currently has more troops serving under NATO in Afganistan than does Greece.It has shown itself to be capable of providing not just consuming security and has constitutionally mandated that it has no territorial aspirations againts its neighbor.NATO must send a clear message that it remaines open for business and that accession is possible for all free, democratic nations in Europe."

Lol;)))
well that explains a lot...

Is this what they teach you in school - that Makedonia means "motherland"?;)))

... " chosen people", move over;)))

who can argue with such academic brilliance;)

One more post for the intellegencia on this board.Think of Macedonia like this. The history of Bulgaria, Serbia, or Greece, is incomplete without claim to Macedonia. But the opposite is true for it. The future is bleak without first realizing that the key to our past is in Macedonia. The sooner you accept this truth, the veil will be uplifted. You will see everything in a whole new light. As far as Slavic history is concerned, Macedonia is the center. It needs to be studied and researched with open minds. How the Bulgars came to the Balkans and changed there [...]

Read the full comment language and culture is facinating. The beging of the Christian movement of the Roman empire all started in the Balkans, mainly Macedonia and Greece. These are very great truths that many just seam to ignore. Besides Greek history, no other balkan history can trace its roots back farther that the 7th century. That holds true for Albania as well.
For those slavic speakers or should I say a dialect of Macedonic decifer this

MAKEDONIA
MAKE-DONIA
MAKE- or Mayke means Mother in Macedonian
DONIA- Doma or dom means home

In translation it means MOTHERLAND.

Makedonia has NO translation in GREEK

Seamus
Always stuck to procedures missing the facts.
Since when Contempt of Court occurs in Blogs and Internet
the proofs provided to the Bar
are provided through Attorneys representing both parties,
they have the responsabilty of avoiding contempt as the same responsability is passed through
to everybody attendng or taking part in procedure "in extensis" the courtroom.
Facts become public domain when published by the medias
(internet,tv,newspapers,magazines,
and so on)
So old lad Relax
See you around in [...]

Read the full comment Carthago.

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Zoran:

"Thats 51% of geographical Macedonia."

Geographical Macedonia is a dead term. It died with the ancient Macedonians.

So is geographical Bulgaria for that matter - Bulgaria is where the Bulgars live. If there are no (or few) Bulgarians on a given land, it's not Bulgaria and we don't want it. I know that your Yugoslav/Serb mentality is different though. Just like the Serbs thinking that there is a chance to get Kosovo without the people.

Land comes with people. The people are what [...]

Read the full comment matters, not real estate.

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4 February 1999: In an interview with the Ottawa Citizen, Gyordan Veselinov, FYROM'S Ambassador to Canada, admitted, "We are not related to the northern Greeks who produced leaders like Philip and Alexander the Great. We are a Slav people and our language is closely related to Bulgarian."

Veritas,
GOD BLESS GWB and his bold move of recognizing the Macedonian nation as his first offical act after re-election. It truelly was as if all my praires have been answered. I also thank the ever living true GOD for the same. As for you and your worthless retoric. Spare me your dribble and open you mind to the realization that people of Macedonia have been freed. Don't think for one minute that President Barak Obama, that the Greeks offered support to, will be on your side. Your talking about an Afro-American who is very simpatetict to a [...]

Read the full comment people that have been appressed. Not to mention that he is associated with the Macedonian Baptist church of USA.

Keep Dreaming......

Think of Greece as, lets say Serbia, which thought that all that was given to them on consignment was truelly theirs. But when the gig was up, it all unraveled right before there eyes.
They even lost KOSOVO. I pray that I see the day that the ghosts of the balkan past claim the wicked and all the wrongs get right.

Then we (the balkan people) will truelly move ahead.

tO Scipio Africanus;my appology for misspelling. The fact is,there is indigenouse Macedonian minority in Aegean Macedonia "Northern Greece".Are you trying to tell me there are no Macedonians,or are dreaming that you are a Macedonian like Droutsas and Karamanlis claim?.Are you telling me you are pure 99.9%? Both above mentioned individuals are not even Greek in any form.One is a Christian Turk and the other is half Cypriot and half Austrian,and both claim to be Macedonians.You people live in Utopia. How can a non-Greek claim Macedonian identity! Yet, the indigenouse Macedonians like my self cannot say I am of Macedonian ethnicity?! [...]

Read the full comment Who are you kidding,the people on this site,or the world!Have you read the Gay MacDougals UN representative report on Human Rights abuses by Greece? "Tha horevume me to idio violi?"in transalation "Are we going to dance to the same violine"?Why do you Greeks always dancing around the questions?. What do you think of the Greek Secret Service of 1982.Was that because there are no Macedonian ethnics?.Grow-up and be more honest.

"We are Slavs who came to this area in the sixth century ... we are not descendants of the ancient Macedonians."
Quote from FYROM'S President Mr. Kiro Gligorov.
(from the Foreign Information Service Daily Report, Eastern Europe,
February 26, 1992, p. 35. )

This comment has been removed by the moderator because it contained foul, abusive or discriminating language

The international community must intervene energetically if this abomination is to be stopped and the people of FYROM saved from ultranationalist, collectivist fallacies. What is in stake is a wholesale cultural genocide over the countries remaining Slavic populations compromised of Serbs and Bulgarians which remained true to the type, the later being particularly exposed to repression and obstacles to creation of even the most diminutive forms of political and cultural association. The outgoing administration of George W. Bush, in a catastrophic mismanagement of Balkan policy, blindly supported the Pseudomacedonian side which nourishes ambitions of territorial expansion towards Greek Macedonia. This [...]

Read the full comment policy, motivated by US support for creation of east-west communication and transport infrastructure traversing FYROM, created an island of instability in the southern Balkans and obstructed the peaceful harmonization of the region in the European Union. Hope remains that the incoming administration of President-Elect Barack Obama will, after the initial adaptation during the transit of power, have a clear, coherent Balkan policy, a hope strengthened by the fact that it will be shaped by Vice-President Joseph Biden and the next Secretary of State Hillary Clinton, individuals with profound Balkan expertise and history of their involvement in Balkan affairs.

However, the primary place in the process of destruction of the VMRO regime in FYROM should be given to Serbia and Bulgaria, which should, coordinated with other leaderships and thinkers within the Slavic word, work on the palliative process of restoration of country’s true Slavic identity which will be a precondition of cherishing libertarian values in politics, economy and culture. At the same time, a process of healing the catastrophic relationships between Skopje and Athens, which will take certainly more than a decade should start. The first step of this process should be rejection of Skopje’s irredentist program and its machinery and a wholesale reform of public education, universities, museums, institution.

The latest provocative act of FYROM is the erection of a 50ft tall horseman statue of Alexander the Great at Skopje’s central square, scheduled for the later half of January. It remains to be seen whether the resident diplomats, including the representatives of EU will protest over this farce. The expected massive hysteria will coincide with the time of downfall of the economic parameters. The occult symbolism of “Alexander returning abroad” and the apparent manifestation of “our king” as the crowd shall cheer will be a prime example of futility of emotions and moods manipulating politics which isolated a European country into a brainwashing camp. In the war between freedom and individuality and collectivist groupthink , FYROM is the most acute hotspot in Europe. Decisiveness in the treatment of VMRO gang is what the civilized world owes to itself.

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Peter.
>>>Scorpio Africanos;
On the rights of return for the 1945-1949 exodus you are 100% wrong. The Greek law was written only those who can return must be of Greek ethnos. Those who claim they are Macedonian ethnics were not allowed, period. I remember 1988 on our 40th anniversary of children refugee in Macedonia, Greece blocked the borders and only few were allowed to cross the border. Don’t be missliding, I was there. <<<<<<
Did you feel the sting of a Scorpio reading my post to Valeri my nom de plume is Scipio not [...]

Read the full comment Scorpio as for Africanus=Africanos no problem. Tell me something my good man why you people over there are playing victims all the time Some of you have made your choices back in 1945-1949 with NOF and SNOF what in the hell you are asking now and what SPECIAL TREATMENT are asking from the Greek state ? To forgive what ? your secession motivation and your Stalins’ dream of a big Communist Macedonia so as to give the USSR and outing to the Mediterranean thing which even the EAM-ELAS rejected at the time; or your still buoyant irredentism and let the borders open for every single monkey on the tree. The directive was specific the only persons allowed to pass the border were those who where of Greek ethnicity those who held other ethnicities ,Yugoslavian at the time, could apply for a Visa thru the Geek consulates.
See you around in Carthago.

"Well Greece you have the UN telling you to recognize minorities...

Let me show what your page you are quoting from says:

"Jose Lindgren Alves, the Committee Expert who served as country Rapporteur for the report of Greece"

"He could however not ensure that his colleagues had no doubts and that the Committee would not issue its recommendation in a different way."

They told you TO RECOGNIZE THE MACEDONIANS!"

>>>I am sorry to inform you that Macedonians are already recognized [...]

Read the full comment by Greece since they are Greek people...

So what you wanted to say is : "they have to recognize the Skopjans!!".

A mountain of evidence exists against this postulated linear connection brought by two centuries of historical and linguistic studies against any connection, including those of cultural, linguistic and demographical type between Macedonians of antiquity and FYROMian Slavs of Bulgarian and Serbian type. However, the lack of any kind of public discourse as well as absence of alternative media brought confusion about the national identity of the population of self-styled Bulgarian-speaking “Macedonians”. Although, with the possible exception of North Korea, the phenomenon of collective government-imposed delusion in FYROM is the largest and most profound such example in modern times, it didn’t [...]

Read the full comment attract the due interest from scholars and thinkers worldwide. History and politicology never hitherto witnessed that a massive disposition in an ethnic groups towards symbolical connection with a imagined ancestral stock whose alien character is apparent from a cursory glance over history, geography and facts of language may function as a central foundation of both internal and external politics in their totality.

Yet, the politics of lie and eradication of the true history of Pseudomacedonian people continues unchallenged. From 2006 onwards the entire landscape has been turned into a theme-park celebrating the Ancient Macedonians. In what was named a “renaming spree” by some observers, enormous number of public facilities were named either “Philip the Macedonian” or “Alexander the Great” and plenty of statues of these ancient Greek historic persons were erected. Usage of the names of other Macedonian figures is avoided most likely because their Greek character would be more salient. The “Vergina Star”, the political and dynastic symbol of the historic Macedonians is cherished and implemented in a number of architectural and decorative projects. The state-organized education instills a sense of ethnic superiority , namely the idea that the entire human civilization originated among FYROMians. Private historical research is forbidden and challenge of the official identity dogma is a criminal offense carrying lengthy prison sentence (article 179 of the Criminal Code).

Funny Elena how no previous occupier ever recorded a "macedonian" population neither the romans nor the turks. In all of the Ottoman population records there are mention of greek, muslim, jewish and slavs in Macedonia but no ethnic 'macedonians'. You decided to steal another nation's history and now you will suffer the consequences.

On 28 August 2009, the UN Committee on the Elimination of Racial Discrimination (CERD) released its report

It was concerned about the obstacles encountered by some ethnic groups in exercising the freedom of association, and in this regard takes note of information on the forced dissolution and refusal to register some associations including words such as minority, Turkish or Macedonian, as well as of the explanation for such refusal.

Looks like the UN wasn't impressed as Jose!

Well Greece you have the UN telling you to recognize minorities...

Let me show what your page you are quoting from says:

"Jose Lindgren Alves, the Committee Expert who served as country Rapporteur for the report of Greece"

"He could however not ensure that his colleagues had no doubts and that the Committee would not issue its recommendation in a different way."

They told you TO RECOGNIZE THE MACEDONIANS!

@GreekMacedonaSupremecy

Actually you didn't answer the question about those 3 Macedonian textbooks that were published in the 1800's.

Brother, Let us Greeks hold up our head and fight this gracefully. I see to many erratic destabilized Greeks & Macedonians with foul language.

"The agreement says FYROM entery into organisation

Sorry you broke the agreement and now you will pay for it by accepting another name. They say it will be Northern Macedonia"

>>>Many thanks to Scott there. Greece is definitely not in a weak position, or else FYROM would not have dropped the double formula very recently...
Everything shows that FYROM is too much under pressure that they need to settle a deal for the name issue, before instability took place within its multiple communities.

Greece has even [...]

Read the full comment not to show that the interim agreement was violated by FYROM years before, since the ICJ judgement will go most probably nowhere and have zero impact on the name issue.

If there is a result from this, it will be indirectly to force FYROM to accept "Northern Macedonia" as soon as possible and to recognize once for all the Greek Macedonia as the "father country", in a few words, the GREEK MACEDONIA SUPREMACY.

Have a nice evening!

Yann,Macedonia went to Bucharest on April 2008 with FYROM.Greeces vito was illigal then and it is now.Lets avoid lies.

Veritas,you are still in Greek mythology.You still looking up to "Kiklopas" arent you?.I would like to turn your attention to the Greek map "Teritories gained in 1913.This is an official Greek governments map.The absurd claims you are making are in line of those who run for office in the Greek Parliament.We used to put side blinds on the horses not to be sistracted.I believe,the Greek gov. has done just that to you people.One question;why the Greek government paid thousands of dollars to "Ouranio Toxo"from the Haque courts?.Why the Post Office refused to deliver election material durring the EU elections which [...]

Read the full comment the material was paid to the Post Office?.Dont you think,Greece is afraid of the Macedonian wake-up call?.Let me tell you,I am Macedonian from Lerin (Florina) I have never heard anyone speaking Greek in my home town,we spoke Macedonian.Greece is stepping on a very thin ice Mr.This ice is melting right under their feet.

he new provocative measures undertaken by the regime of Nikola Gruevski show that the political leadership of the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia decided to create a virtual reality as a substitute for normal free life of its citizens. The Prime Minister of the small Balkan nation, termed “the immortal and eternal shepherd and leader of his people” by the state TV continued the policy of historical revisionism carried through occult usurpation of the space much to the disbelief and revolt among outside observers which slowly but steadily begun to understand its eerie monstrosity.

Since its [...]

Read the full comment separation from Yugoslavia in 1991, FYROM struggled with its troubled past originating from the ideology of separate “Macedonian” nation formulated by the Bulgarian VMRO, later by Communist Internationale in 1934 and implemented on its soil from 1944 onwards by Yugoslav Communist dictator Josip Broz “Tito”. While there is a convergence in the global Balkanology-oriented historiography that prior to 1944 most of FYROMian so-called “Macedonian” population was ethnically Bulgarian, energetic Titoist policy of allocating large funds to creation of schools, media outlets, institutions, museums and other cultural institution among the hitherto extremely backward people managed to instill a strong sense of one’s “Macedonian” ethnicity, neither Bulgarian, nor Serb and categorically as well as diametrically opposed to any other interpretation of local culture and politics. After 60 years of such totalitarian “national-communist” model which is continued today in altered form by the ruling “Internal Macedonian Revolutionary Organization” (VMRO), this view escalated into widespread belief among the general public that the Pseudomacedonian ethnic group has its direct ancestry from Ancient Macedonians, a Greek entity bulk of which historically inhabited modern-day northern Greek province of Macedonia.

@Elena

The agreement says FYROM entery into organisation

Sorry you broke the agreement and now you will pay for it by accepting another name. They say it will be Northern Macedonia

@Scott

If you claim that Macedonia broke the Interim Accord first - according to the Accord itself - it needs to go to the ICJ.

If Greece believed that Macedonia has broken the IA - then they are required to have that claim tested at the ICJ.

Greece has not made a claim at the ICJ. Macedonia has. Greece is the defendant in this case - not Macedonia. As a consequence this case has only two outcomes - Greece has not breached the IA or Greece has breached [...]

Read the full comment it.

Proving that Greece opposed Macedonia's entry in violation of article 11 (art 11 was about the only thing Greece was obligated to do)- will not be hard.

Tell me do you believe they opposed Macedonia's entry?

Scorpio Africanos;On the rights of return for the 1945-1949 exodus you are 100% wrong.The Greek law was written only those who can return must be of Greek ethnos.Those who claim they are Macedonian ethnics were not allowed,period.I remember 1988 on our 40th aniversary of children refugee in Macedonia,Greece blocked the borders and only few were allowed to cross the border.Dont be missliding,I was there. To Veritas;Little history for you,Macedonia was the first people who embraced Christianity in Europe.The Macedonian church was preaching in Macedonian slavic language centuries before Greece existed.Our Northern neighbors were asking for Macedonian teachers,not gor Greek. This [...]

Read the full comment is why Bulgaria,Russia,Ukrain,Serbian churches do preach in their Orthodox churches in slavic, I may add,they all speak slavic. As to your existance as Greeks is a western myth.At the time you became a State in 1834,there were many different languages spoken.The majority was Albanian.Even then,this state was thinking to use two different languages.In 1856-1858 the Greek state closed the Albanian news media and even killed the founders of those papers.You are called "Greeks" today because the western historians thought they wiil re-juvenate the Hellenic past,the one you have no connection to. To GMS;You are avoiding the real issues.I will not repeat what I wrote above,so I will answer your question. Macedonia pre-existed Greece for many centuries.Part of Macedonia was never Greek prior to 1913. The Macedonian organizations existed while the Macedonians fought the Greek fascist government with ELAS.Macedonians fought along with the EAM againts the Nazis while Greek gov. capitulated to the Nazis.Briefly,let me tell you how the ELAS came about.In 1945 there was an agreement for EAM to put down the armes and have a free elections.Than the Greek gov. started to imorison officers and those who were suspected being communist and sent them in prison to Makroniso and other ilands.Just remember,Markos and Zahariadis thought they won something that turned out to be a myth.So,they took armes againts the Government and became ELAS.There were more than 200 thousand Macedonians who fought for the promise they received from the communist Party that we will have our rights restored,live as equals in the State.In fact,they sold us out,and in 1948 took most of the young children of Macedonian identity and shipped us to the Eastern Europe.The Macedonian part that Serbia got in 1913 today is the Republic of Macedonia.The Macedonian people fought the Nazis along with Titos armies,and in 1944 the ASNOM declaired Macedonia as a Federated Socialist Republic of Macedonia.Since than,Greece has been signing agreements under this name and had no problem with the name Macedonia.But, just before Yugoslavija disintegated,Greece changed the tune.We all know very well why.Greeces purity went out of the window.Today,Greeces elections are based around Macedonia.The xenophobia has griped Greece.The harder one goes againts Macedonia the more votes. It is political at its best.

So 3 books makes you a nation?

"We are Slavs who came to this area in the sixth century ... we are not descendants of the ancient Macedonians."
Quote from FYROM'S President Mr. Kiro Gligorov.
(from the Foreign Information Service Daily Report, Eastern Europe,
February 26, 1992, p. 35. )

Sorry Lena but it has indeed been proven that Skopje has broken the Interim Accord. Game Over

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@George

George, when the ICJ is through with Greece, this issue will go to the UN General Assembly. If (as most people expect) Greece loses - this will go before the General Assembly. The most likely course of action is that as Greece was not able to abide by the IA, the UN would recognize the name issue is going nowhere. Countries like RoM and the USA would then call a UN General Assembly vote on Macedonia joining the UN under the constitutional name. Given that 127 of 194 members already use the constitutional name and [...]

Read the full comment only 97 members are needed for a majority - Macedonia has 30 more than they need. It doesn't look good for Greece.

Yann, Marcos -

Macedonia sought to join NATO and the EU as Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia. Therefore any opposition by Greece is illegal in the context of Article 11 of the IA.

Lena - Greek claims that RoM broke the Interim Agreement have not been proven - that is what the ICJ is for. If you claim that is what has happened you need to lodge your own claim in the ICJ. This has not happened.

Macedonia has not done anything as serious as the Greek opposition. Also if the Interim Agreement is broken it will go to the UN General Assembly. Macedonia has the numbers there and Greece has no veto.

AND Finally our government is willing to drop the double formula. It didn't take a rocket scientist to work out that this was the bargaining chip Gruevski and co. have been hanging onto for a compromise. Gruevski believes that by allowing a geographic qualifier to our name the Greeks will equally recognise our identity. This has taken years for our not too intelligent ex-boxer PM to realise that Greece recognises our Macedonian identity as for what it is " A Slavic ethnicity". As long as we stop this pathetic portrayal from those in our mist like the antiquisationist supporters and [...]

Read the full comment their diaspora backers that we are descended from the ancient Greek speaking Macedonian Al.Veliki and his Greek people then we are all on a realistic and honest footing. In other words, our modern Slavic speaking Macedonians are not descendents of the ancient Greek speaking Macedonians but rather a people who share like everyone else in this area a regional Macedonian identity.
Compromise takes intellectual diplomacy not cunning ambiguity!

Long Live Vasko Gligorov, the Macedonian Youth & SDSM.

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24 February 1999: In an interview with the Ottawa Citizen, Gyordan Veselinov, FYROM'S Ambassador to Canada, admitted, "We are not related to the northern Greeks who produced leaders like Philip and Alexander the Great. We are a Slav people and our language is closely related to Bulgarian." He also commented "there is some confusion about the identity of the people of this country."

To SeaNous, please answer to this instead of being ironic with catalogue and Irish comparisons. Thanks.

"What are you trying to say? There is no fanatism, nor territorial intentions in Skopje's mind? How do you explain "Macedonia" in the map include also the greek region of Macedonia? Please, do not make a fool of us. Thank you".

Valeri
I am afraid we must ignore some relics of the past as Peter.
These people live and breathe for long past activities with NOF and SNOF those two Guerillas organizations 1945-1949 seeking secession of Greece helped by Tito their plan of course failed and they were forced to live (expelled) in neighboring Yugoslavia at that time Vardar Banovina then Tito had the bright idea on naming Vardar Banovina mostly in fact populated by Bulgarians to FEDERAL YUGOSLASV REPUBLIC OF MACEDONIA just for the sake of annoying both Bulgaria and Greece and give the people of [...]

Read the full comment VARDAR BANOVINA a separate reality .The years passed by .
In late 1974-75 the Greek government gave the opportunity to the political expulsed willing to return to Greece some of them did in fact return (many of them in Florina) while some of them already had formed the the diaspora in Canada and Australia. The diaspora seeking an Identity molded the Antiqusation theory spending billions on propaganda . The others in Florina Vinozito (Rainbow) like Peter and others seeking Recognition in their separate reality play their part.
Carthage

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Gk Mack Suppy - yeah, we did see the same in Greece: badly executed monochrome murals saying "Makedonia Ellenika" or something, together with hand-drawn maps covering the area from Salonika to Nis. Yawn.

These were all so badly drawn and displayed, with a total lack of skill in deploying painting materials, that you really should call in our Belfast Boys to do proper murals for you.

Sure the EU will have a grant under "cultural activities" if you approach them through the right channels (try a bribe in the EU Athens office [...]

Read the full comment first)

Failte

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Peter listen to yourself:
".. I never lived in Jugoslavija.I am from the Aegean part of Macedonia."

Where you really come from or live in is anybody's guess, this being the internet and all, but the language is pure proof of the necessity for the Greeks to challenge the adoption of that name. Do you mean to say that you are a "Macedonian" from Greece, or that Greece is occupying Macedonia, because last time I checked the Aegean coast is divided between Turkey and Greece only and FYROM is nowhere near the Aegean. You [...]

Read the full comment calling yourself "from the Aegean part of Macedonia" is a provocation whatever way you chose to look at it.

People should listen to the language carefully ... it doesn't bode well for the future of the Balkans, given the history and the mentality of your former country Yugoslavia...

Peter:

"Valeri,I never lived in Jugoslavija.I am from the Aegean part of Macedonia. Valeri,do you think Misirkov was a Bulgarian, Greek or Macedonian?"

Peter, your personal life story, albeit surely interesting, isn't really a part of my sphere of interests. Nor Misirkov's.

All I see that you look like me, (shorter but still;) and speak like me, and have adopted a name which is as ridiculous as if I denounce my Bulgarian nationality, and insist to be called Thracian, just because we hail from those lands for the [...]

Read the full comment last 13 centuries and surely have some % of genetic connection with the original Thracians... It's embarrassing...

Well Zoran,
it's very simple. Think of it as the Budweiser saga - two Americans visited the town of Budweis (Ceske Budejovice) late 19th century, and fell in love with the beer made there since 1245.
Brought the formula to the US and in a world with long distances and weak patent rights laws, they got away with it.
What helped divorce the two Buds in the post war years, was the Iron Curtain, which allow the American brand to assume the identity, unchallenged - (ala "Macedonia in YU).
Not surprisingly in [...]

Read the full comment the 90's the Czechs challenged the use of the name Budweiser by Anheuser Busch.

This is exactly what it's happening now with FYROM.
It doesn't help that Gruev (ski) is not very diplomatic about exhibiting future territorial
demands from BG and GR based on the geographical borders of ancient Macedonia, which identity they have assumed, as a replacement for their Yugoslav one.

Valeri,I never lived in Jugoslavija.I am from the Aegean part of Macedonia. Valeri,do you think Misirkov was a Bulgarian, Greek or Macedonian? First,he finished 6th grade in greek.Fought for Macedonias liberation,lived in Odessa,than he came to Bulgaria where he wrote"My wish is when I die,my bones (telo) is (zakopani)in my birth place Macedonia.He died in 1926. To GMS,I find it very strange,in the Greek history there are not mentioned the Macedonian heroes who fought the Ottomans.By Greeces claim,"Macedonia is Greek"why not mentioning Goce Deltsev,Pitu Guli,Damian Gruev,Nikola Karev the first President of the Republic of Macedonia in 1903?.Goce Deltsev was born [...]

Read the full comment 35 km north of Salonika.Dont you think your claims are realy absurd?.You recognise Ion Dragumis who sold his soul to the Greeks,and fought againts his own people,the Macedonians?. As of Athens durring the Alexanders time,Athens was 99% Albanian,in todays terms Athens was just a Village.Greeces PM since inception had 57,of which 27 were Albanians.Today the Greek President Papulias (Sulayman)is of Albanian ancestry.His ancestors changed the name and religion 125 years ago.Were you awere of this?. Even that we cannot solve our mutual problems,we must allow our elected officials to continue to talk on even keel, because Greeces boat is sinking fast.

I think you people are all extremelly nuts. Macedonia has every right to live amoung the free nations in Europe and the World. People sould understand that the future is bleak in regards of how the balkans portray there neighbors.
Here is some food for thought. If the Bulgars, Serbs, Croats, etc. are Slavs, why are they allowed the benifit of self determination. Respectfully, they all call themselves what they believe to be. There is no despute. It boggles my mind how the Balkans turns inside out when the term Macedonia is raised. The name itself sends sublime [...]

Read the full comment meanings and reations that can not be duplicated. Its amazing.
Even the Great Powers fear it the use of the name. To me it seems that there is something much bigger at play here. AMAZING>>>>

Gk Mack Supp - have now seen your posting of the "heavily offensive mural" about 'Makodonija'. Yawn - it all looks a bit sad.

Firstly the flag shown (Star of Vergina) is common to the region, secondly, it's badly executed in monochrome, and thirdly, our boyos from Ulster could do a MUCH BETTER JOB, complete with black-capped gunmen, brilliant polychrome murals, and properly-calligraphed inscriptions in Greek, Macedonian, Irish Gaelic, English, and any other language you pay for (I suggest Arabic).

Jeez, these Macedonian mural-painters are bloody amateurs. Turn to us Irish for [...]

Read the full comment the professionals...and we accept being paid in Euros, but without a Y- prefix on the notes ( Y- means they are allocated to Greece.)

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One small point to Gk Mak Sup - when you say:

<< And then again, from a legal point of view, the 127 countries that recognized FYROM will change nothing to the fact that Greece is still hanging the sword of Damocles of FYROM >>

...maybe the "Sword of Damocles" approach is not the most effective means/method of international diplomacy ?

It was last used extensively by the Nazi Germans against Austria, Czechoslovakia and Poland, with short-term success but with long-term drastic failure for Germany.

[...]

Read the full comment /> If I was feeling uncharitable - which I am not - I could comment that there is a Sword of Damocles hanging over Greece itself at the moment,both from the European Union and from the world investment banking community (in theory that makes it two Swords, not one !)

However, 'Swords' is also a very pleasant suburb of Dublin, so I shan't mention Swords any more.

Go raith maith agaibh

Seamus McGrath

I read these comments with interest as there is no precedent in history to the request that a country should have to change its name to appease a neighbour. There are people here who are kidding themselves if they believe that the Republic of Macedonia was created by tito in 1944 and that's where the identity was created. The region and the Slavs within that region have called themselves either Bulgarian or Macedonian depending on where they reside for centuries.The identity was there before Tito formalised the name around the Socialist Republic of Macedonia. I am staggered by the seething [...]

Read the full comment hatred underlining some of these comments over the months that I have read them. The Republic of Macedonia poses no threat to its southern neighbour. They wont change their name that would threaten their identity. Its as simple as that. The insecurity by the southern neighbour is highlighted on a daily basis when you find Macedonian news sites or any other Macedonian webistes inundated by the so called sons of alexander trying to tell the world that Macedonia is Greek. Dont be so insecure. The EU is their for you politically as well as economically.They will bail you out of your economic mess.

Have a great day.

Finally our naive government has realised that their ongoing antiquisationist attitudes have fallen on deaf ears. The only people still in a state of fabricated flux are our diaspora compatriots. Soon they will feel the reality of our region and that is that we will accept a geographic (Northern) qualifier to our name and also that our historical narrative will receive its pride among the Slavic ethnicities and away from these illusionist theories of descending from Al.Veliki and his Greek people. Our rightful place remains as part of our founding forefathers in the revolutionary years at the turn of last [...]

Read the full comment century. Delchev, Sandanski, Sarafov, Karev, Gruev, etc., always knew that our Slavic pride was among all the Bulgarian peoples throughout regional Macedonia. They left a plethora of Bulgarian documentation which has over the years filtered its way into the archives of our universities throughout Macedonia. The antiquisationiats are faced with new problems of how to de-slavitize our historical narrative as it was written by these famous revolutionaries. Even the great majority of our academics are trying to openly (at much discomfort and sometimes threats of imprisonment by the authorities) debate the Bulgarian origins of our forefathers which are evidenced in these documents. The diaspora are understandibly irritated by these advances since they (the academics) amputate their fairytale dreams of continuity to the ancient Greek speaking Macedonians of Al.Veliki. As long as we compromise on our name we will always be known as Macedonians of a Slavic ethnicity but with the distinguishment from our friends over the border who are Macedonians of a Greek origin. This my friends is the state of affairs, we are all Macedonians some are just more recent than others and some are Slavic, Greek, Albanian, Vlach, Roma, etc., speaking but still Macedonian nevertheless. Those who are nationalists especially from the diaspora, and nationalists in our own countries will always find a way to subvert progress but in the end we will win the Macedonian Youth in all our lands.

Long Live Vasko Gligorov, the Macedonian Youth & SDSM.

FYROM have been brain washed by there government since their country was created by Tito in 1940s, thinking that they are the descent of the Ancient Macedonians who are Greek at the first place. I think that the meeting in London is just another waste of time for the Greeks. FYROM are living in a fantasy and must realise that they are just slavs who come into Europe in the 6th Centuery AD and are not the real Macedonians who are Greeks at the first place. Today FYROM, a population of just 2 million are mixed of Slavs, Albanians, Serbs [...]

Read the full comment and Muslims. FYROM must find a new name for its country and leave history as it is, in the past.

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Great post!

@Valeri

Valeri,i my self bellong to the small categorie of Greeks that do not like the Serbs for the reason that you just mentioned.As for back then,well Greece was always a tool of the great power so you are right to be pissed off i understant.I have relatives in Vardar(in Kumanovo basically) and i know from first hand what you mean trust me..I never understood this whole friendship circus between Greeks and Serbs,the problem is that many Greek do not aware of this issues.Like me there are many people who can tell you the same storie..I [...]

Read the full comment dont find it strange that so much time on the net i would actually had a fight with a second cusin from Vardar..The problem i beleive that today starts from outside not inside.Anyway this thing is a big conversation..Good night from Greece and btw im really sorry for the farmers(its has nothing to do with the matter)but im sorry really...They hust both of as but we cant do anything..

Well, in a way you have to understand them, I suppose...
For 80 years the Serbs tried to beat their identity out of them, now the Serbs are gone, and those folks are like a bunch of lost children with identity issue.
After all those decades of anti-Bulgarian propaganda, surely they won't admit to themselves that we are essentially the same peoples, yet the Yugoslav identity is gone and dead - ah Alexander sounds pretty good!

But you know what my Greek friends, if Greece hadn't team up with Serbia in 1913 [...]

Read the full comment to stab their ally in the back while we were holding the front against the Turks in Chatalja, and allow them to take over that area populated with Bulgarians, the only question right now would be the Bulgarian -Albanian relations in what is today FyROM.
Just as well for us, actually.

@Peter

I like the plan and how you people have it in your brains(regarding eu)but sorry to tell you that there will be a veto in the end and as NATO noone will ever say that we even VETO you!!Now as for Drutsas no comment.Droutsas recently said"The Macedonian idedity is part of the Hellenic and we do not negotiate with it with noone!!He brought you to reallity didnt he?? :-)!!I like the fact that he pisses you off,get used to it he will be the foreign minister in some weeks from now officially.
Now [...]

Read the full comment regarding UN and the 127 countries and whatever your goverment tell you to feel safe(cause they are trying hard to hide the Albanian reallity but from what we see they simply cant!!)i have to say only this.
If your problem was what the rest of the planet would call you then there wouldnt be any discussion at all.Cause neither you like it my friend the realli ty is this.As you and all of you the same will happen with your children and your grandchildren and so own(in a hepothetic future that your country will stay as a whole).The idetity crisis that you people are experience canot be changed even if all the planet will call you by my history a name that you dont even understant.Cause neither you like it or not my friend the truth is this:There will always be the Bulgarians there to remind you who you people really were and are,and there will always be the Macedonians and the rest of the Greeks here to remind you what you NEVER were and NEVER going to be.This is your reallity the rest are bull.

The 21st century one.
How's life in planet Antiquity?

Valeri,you are not worth to comment.Pne question for you; in what planet do you live?

Yeah Peter,
what ever Macedonia did or did not do has nothing to do with you.
You look and speak Bulgarian and your cousins are in Sandanski - Bulgaians - deal with that fact instead of looking for imaginary ancestry - it's embarrassing...
Free yourself from Tito, ones and for all...

"We are Slavs who came to this area in the sixth century ... we are not descendants of the ancient Macedonians."
Quote from FYROM'S President Mr. Kiro Gligorov.

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To Greek Macedonia.My dear friend,you dont even know your own history.May I remind you of Demosthenes and Pericles in 337-338 BC.May I remind you why Karamanlis claimed that the Pontious who are Christian Turks are the real Ancient Macedonians. How can you explain this? How can you explain why Droutsas said "I am born Macedonian and will die Macedonian"First of all,Droutsas is Cypriot,his mother Austrian.He is not even Greek.This is what you people cannot comprehand.It is unfortunate,you Greeks have put horses blindes in your eyes and cannot see any furthere. Historicly,Macedonia never belonged to Greece because Greece did not exist [...]

Read the full comment before 1829.Remember history,Macedonia dominated Hellas,it was not the other way.Just read what Pericles wrote to Phillip in 337 BC.I am sure,the majority of the audience on this site will agree with history that was written than.Look,we the Macedonians are different than you,even our physical appearance is different.We can pronounce words that you cannot.For example,the Zh-Zhaba,zhena as in the name of "Zhelev".It is too bed that the Greek government took the wrong turn on Macedonias history.Greece has fabricated it to a point that there is no returne for mainly political reasons.

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And then again, from a legal point of view, the 127 countries that recognized FYROM will change nothing to the fact that Greece is still hanging the sword of Damocles of FYROM.
I know this is frustrating for you, but that is the true reality.
On the other hand, you should be prepared soon to accept "Republic of Northern Macedonia" as the future name of your country and to recognize at the same time "de facto" the region of Greece to be the only one named as "Macedonia" between both countries.
Have a nice [...]

Read the full comment evening!

To Greek supremacy,just read my last comment.Greece is facing the reality.127 countries recognised Macedonia,that makes it the majority in the UN.Greece can do nothing on this matter once it goes to the UN.Say what you want,the reality is the vote will take place in New York,not Athens.

To Peter:

"The Greek alternate FM Droutsas suggested to Macedonia to withdrawl the ICJ knowing Greece is in breach of the agreement of 1995 under article 11.There is a furthere comment that Greece will be isolated by the world and will loose the argument over the constitutional name.Macedonia has been recognised under its constitutional name by 127 countries.If Greece looses the Haque ICJ,Macedonia can than go to the UN and ask for a vote on the name without Greeces consent.This is a thorn on Greeces politics".

>>>This is an interpretation based on [...]

Read the full comment personal feelings, but far from the reality I am afraid...
Greece did not transgress at all the agreement of 1995. The agreement became unvalid since Fyrom started its negatively-seen "antiquization" propaganda to provocate its southern neighbour, Greece and to create ethnic tensions. We do not know what will be the result of the ICJ, but when I see Milososki dropping out the double formula, that makes me feel that the judgement would not be in favor of Skopje. But let is wait and see it first, and then start to interprete what will be the next diplomatic steps.

As for your sentence "If Greece looses the Haque ICJ,Macedonia can than go to the UN and ask for a vote on the name without Greeces consent" : the "without Greeces consent" is just impossible to achieve for FYROM. It would be a legal transgression of the whole NATO consensus and the right of the veto of every country member. The judgement will not change anything... Greece is still holding the key of FYROM's EU & NATO aspirations in all the cases.

Seamus,here is an article from Jan. 20th 2010. "Greece will not wait for the decision of the ICJ in the Haque and will probably ask for non-binding resolution of the name dispute over violation of the temporal agreement. According to experts in the process Greece knows it can loose the case and thus to loose its authority. This means Greece would agree under conditions Macedonia to become NATO member state under the name of FYROM and the country to forfeit the process".

Seamus,the Greek alternate FM Droutsas suggested to Macedonia to withdrawl the ICJ knowing Greece is in breach of the agreement of 1995 under article 11.There is a furthere comment that Greece will be isolated by the world and will loose the argument over the constitutional name.Macedonia has been recognised under its constitutional name by 127 countries.If Greece looses the Haque ICJ,Macedonia can than go to the UN and ask for a vote on the name without Greeces consent.This is a thorn on Greeces politics.I hope I answered your question.By the way,Republic of Ireland has recognised Macedonias constitutional name,thanks.Have a nice [...]

Read the full comment day.

Valeri,I am not surprised by your comment.Have you not heard what former President of Bulgaria said?. Here in part his comment "Greece should be ashamed for not recognizing Macedonias constitutional name".