Let them put lots of flying hours on the jet the more they fly the more the stractural damage .it takes more balls to restrain then to act like bully ,Israeli jets are in the Aegean sea they can practice on Turkish jets for free,they can get away from USA very strong lobby Greece can't us will do what usually does support turkey is not new .Greece has the hands tight behind their backs is too hard to see that .Greece is too stupid to have fear for numbers but you have to be realistic who is behind turkey the [...]

Read the full comment powerfully USA as long is this way is going to a game .finally turkey never attacked greek land Cyprus is not Greek land because if was Greece enter from evros . You have to an idiot turkey does not have power I'n eastern thrace because can be trapped .80 per cent of the Greek mechanize units are close to their border forget evros you never there is clear tank war open ground foot soldiers are waist a machine gun can cut them like. Grass so peace people

Greece must reverse the roles. Greece must become the invader and the terrorizer. Greece should shoot down those intruding jets. Greece should turn North Cyprus into Gaza. Greece must send commandoes deep into Turkey to assassinate the Grey Wolves and the Turkish Mafia that traffic heroin into Europe. Greece must become like Israel. That is how Greece must act.

Said how bunch of patriots and ill-informed citizens of whatever country think Turks or Greeks are the problem. I never knew any Turks that hated or disliked any Greek. Some of the people might be manipulated but still, I bet they have no personal experience to weigh in on.
I blame no one but the uncivilized, stupid and narrow-minded politicians and military of each country for this ongoing heated situation.
This is nothing more than a prolonged, silly Mexican Stand-off!
Recep and other Turkish people, please stop calling names to Greek fellas, even if [...]

Read the full comment they are calling names! Stop being so F'ing proud.
Life in hatred is a life wasted...

turkey is to powerful forget it greece

J

Wed, Dec 16 2009 19:45 CET

"Maybe the news your reading might be what's one-sided? That would help explain why the blame here seems so one sidedly put on Turkey.

For example the article says nothing about Greek aircraft ever flying into Turkish airspace. I doubt that's because it never happens. "
===========================

Can you please tell us when that has happened and what was the outcome?
I would love a link to that story.
You are [...]

Read the full comment making it sound like this is all payback by the Turks.

I am Greek and have visited Turkey many times. The Turkish people I have met are very nice, kind, and warm people. I hope to god a war never starts. There would be great loss of life on both sides! Greece should make one final warning! The next time Turkey flies into Greek airspace you will be shot down! No questions asked. Long live Greece and piece be with the Turks.

@ Recep.

The russians screwing over the Greeks is nothing new.

Actually, on reflection, the Romanian swords would have been more useful, as a sword is a self-contained weapon that doesn't need ammunition / ammo (so, for that matter, is a bayonet.)

In contrast, a rifle is useless without precisely the correct size of ammunition for its bore (the wrong size ammo will either jam it, explode in the rifleman's face, or refuse to fire at all.)

In addition, in "casernes" or military stores in all countries, it is customary to keep the rifles and their ammunition well separate under heavy lock-and-key, so [...]

Read the full comment that a casual thief cannot just walk off with a load of firepower.

The downside of this otherwise sensible practice is that the 'caserne' can easily end up with a load of rifles for which there is no ammunition, or equally a load of ammunition that doesn't fit any rifles in stock. (This happened to the Americans in Vietnam !)

So this explains why the Russians would have been free to send a load of rifles to Turkey without the ammunition to fit them.

(If the Turks had meanwhile acquired ammunition but no rifles, this could still have been of great help to the Turks. But we don't know this for a fact...)

NOTE TO MODERATORS : THIS IS INTENDED PURELY TO BE HELPFUL FACTUAL BACKGROUND, IN THE LIGHT OF THE POSTINGS MADE.

Yeah, but the Greeks captured the ammo (in the Smyrna arms 'caserne'), and the Turks got the rifles. (The Russians only donated the rifles as they didn't have the ammo either.)

Next question ?

I agree with the homosexual Koinos Nous. Clearly the 1.5 million Turkish riffles returned to the Ottomans were made out of paper and cardboard. Lets face it, the military genius and bravery of the Turks won this war! No the backing of France, Russia and Italy! LOL

1-2 year old Ottoman riffles, 1.5 million of themtobe exact, they were captured from the Ottomans a year earlier, and given back. Of course they have amo!!! What a fool you are. These are major factors in the Turkish defeat of the Greeks!

My numerical interlocutor "1" asks how 1 million rifles can become obsolete. Easy...

(1) read the relevant item once again:
<< On August 4, Turkey's representative in Moscow, Riza Nur, sent a telegram saying that soon 60 Krupp artillery pieces, 30,000 shells, 700,000 grenades, 10,000 mines, 60,000 Romanian swords, 1.5 million captured Ottoman rifles from World War I, 1 million Russian rifles, 1 million Mannlicher rifles, as well as some older British Martini-Henry rifles and 25,000 bayonets would be delivered to the Kemalist forces.>>

...and then work it out (if [...]

Read the full comment "1" has any military experience, which I doubt):

Issue 1: does the 1920 Turkish army have any ammunition to fit any of the rifles ? (Except for some of the ex-Ottoman ones, almost certainly not. Therefore they are valueless, because they cannot be fired !)

Issue 2: the British Martini-Henry rifles dated from the Boer War 1899-1901, and ammunition was no longer available, even by World War One (which is why the UK sent them to Russia !)

Issue 3: the calibre of the Russian rifles is unknown, but was almost certainly obsolete by 1919, otherwise the Russians would have retained them. Ditto for the Mannlicher German rifles, otherwise the Germans wouldn't have ditched them after the Treaty of Versailles.

I know this doesn't accord with the Greek concept of "philotimo", but in military matters small details (such as precise diameter of ammunition down to 1/100 mm) are actually rather important.

In short, in 1920 the Russians made a Grand Gesture that cost them nothing, as they couldn't use the rifles concerned against the opposing White Russian forces, having no ammunition to fit them.

Amazing how the stupid Greeks and Russians act like brothers now when clearly the Russians were to thank for the Turks defeating the Greeks..
The Greeks really are stupid.

How can 1 million Riffles be obsolete? You only choose to mention the 20,000 Romanian swords.
I am afraid that foreign backing to Turkey was decisive and I am glad that you Koinos Nous finally understand and admit that even though it took you a wiki ink to get there when most residents of the balkans already know the massive support the soviet gave Attaturk. Even though you appear 14 years old, at least now you realise the 1922 has more to do with Russia and the other great powers than Turkish military brilliance!! HAHAHA!

Just a friendly footnote to Pavel: the Russians can't have sent any trains to Turkey (or to Greece) as the track gauge (distance between the rails) is quite different - 1524 mm as opposed to 1435 mm.

This was deliberate policy by the Imperial Russian Government, continued by the Soviets, and was defensive in nature, especially in an era when train movements were essential in pursuing war (as the Germans knew very well indeed !)

It remains as an operating problem even today for Polish and Lithuanian railways, as the Polish gauge [...]

Read the full comment is 1435 mm and the Lithuanian one (ex-Soviet) 1524 mm.

The Turkish and Greek gauges have always been 1435 mm, although neither country has a dense rail network.

Hope this is helpful and neutral !

Well, thanks to Pavel and "1" for the Wikipedia link to the history of the Greco-Turkish War 1919-1921. By Wikipedia standards it's a good and well-balanced article, and quotes lots of academic references (always a good sign).

It doesn't say that Russian help was the key factor in helping Ataturk win, though. True, Russia did send a lot of rather obsolete weaponry (I liked the bit about 10,000 Romanian swords), but the key factors in Greece's defeat appear to have been:

(a) collapse of foreign support in 1920, aided by the Venizelos/Constantine [...]

Read the full comment factor. After that Greece was on its own.

(b) brilliant generalship by Ataturk, who abandoned the then-current "line of defence" military doctrine in favour of something much closer to guerilla war. It worked !

(c) Greece ran out of morale, money, and men. Very few Greeks living in Asia Minor volunteered to fight on the Greek side.

Both sides seem to have committed an equal number of atrocities, especially around and in Izmir/Smyrna.

A good article, and thanks.

No offence but the Soviet backing of the Kamalist Turkish revolutionaries against the Kingdom of Greece invasion during the Greco - Turkish war is legendary/ The Soviets sent over millions of riffles and even military trains. The Italian also took turns in training whole Turkish units.

As the supply situation worsened for the Greeks, things improved for the Turks. Initially, they enjoyed only Soviet support from abroad, in return for giving Batum back to the Soviet Union. On August 4, Turkey's representative in Moscow, Riza Nur, sent a telegram saying that soon 60 Krupp artillery pieces, 30,000 shells, 700,000 grenades, 10,000 mines, 60,000 Romanian swords, 1.5 million captured Ottoman rifles from World War I, 1 million Russian rifles, 1 million Mannlicher rifles, as well as some older British Martini-Henry rifles and 25,000 bayonets would be delivered to the Kemalist forces.[20] Soviets also provided monetary aid to [...]

Read the full comment the Turkish national movement, not to the extent that they promised but almost in sufficient amount to make up the large deficiencies in the promised supply of arms. The Turks in the second phase of the war also received significant military aid from Italy and France, who threw in their lot with the Kemalists against Greece which was seen as a British client[35]. The Italians were embittered from their loss of the Smyrna mandate to the Greeks and they used their base in Antalya to arm and train Turkish troops to assist the Kemalists against the Greeks.

This comment has been removed by the moderator because it contained foul, abusive or discriminating language

Soviet Union DID NOT back Attaturk??
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greco-Turkish_War_(1919%E2%80%931922)#Shift_of_support_towards_Turkish_Revolutionaries

Learn to read fool. This war was fought and lost by foreign powers.

Well, THAT'S a revisionist view of history if ever I saw one:

<< The Greek army lost its backing from the international european powers and Russia rearmed the Turks FOR FREE because they believed Ataturk was a communist! So in reality, the Greeks were easily defeating the Turks despite limited numbers until the international powers decided the outcome in favour of the Turks. >>

Presumably in the same revisionist history book we read that the French Revolution would have been won by the monarchy except for English intervention, and that the American [...]

Read the full comment War of Independence was helped at a vital moment by little green men from Mars....

IIRC, in 1922/23 the Leninist wing of the Bolshevik Party had grave problems of its own in sustaining the Russian Revolution (as recounted in recent books by UK activist Arthur Ransome, Lenin's secretary and subsequent UK children's author), and was in little position to influence any exterior events anywhere outside Russia's immediate boundaries, let alone in far-away Greece or Turkey...

But I wouldn't want the facts to get in the way of a good argument....maybe the little green men could help too ?

The Greek army lost its backing from the international european powers and Russia rearmed the Turks FOR FREE because they believed Attaturk was a communist! So in reality, the Greeks were easily defeating the Turks despite limited numbers until the international powers decided the outcome in favour of the Turks.

Fred -
When you say:
<< The turks forget that little Greece kicked their butts in WWI until the super powers stopped supplying the Greeks. >>

.....that is slightly misleading. When the Turks got reorganised under Ataturk, the Turks rather thoroughly won their war against the Greeks in 1922/23, resulting in the mass deportations of Pontian Greeks from Asia Minor, and the Greek loss of a fair amount of territory.

The Greeks, predictably, have never forgotten this episode, but they don't broadcast it as this would be contrary [...]

Read the full comment to national pride, or "philotimo".

Greece is part of the EU. So what don't our EU partners ever say anything about Turkish jets violating its territory ?

Let the turks waste their fuel. The fly bys with their jets is just posturing. The turks can not even handle their own eternal problems. The turks forget that little Greece kicked their butts in WWI until the super powers stopped supplying the Greeks.

Guys don't forget that Turkey has a population of over 70 million & Greece just touching 11 million. What can a small country do? The turks are a bunch of bullies flexing their muscle towards their neighbours instead of working towards peace in the region.

Poor Greece, still bullied by the descendants of ottoman 90 years after the collapse of the Ottoman Empire. Flying military aircraft into a neighbors airspace is a huge symbol of dominance. Greeks appear to like to take it from the Turks. Why complain? Why make this article? For fetish? Greeks like to take it from their Islamic masters and complain the next day like a woman. Nothing to write about.

You guys relax.Wars are over long time ago in the balkans it will simply wont happen again.In 1996 Greece and Turkey was a breath before war and the last minute we stoped it.And back then the relationships between the two countries was 100 times worst than now.Now there are many reasons except the good relationships of the two nations,its the economy(tourism is a big part of GPD of both Greece and Turkey)bussines,and ofcourse lets not forget that Turkey hasnt still said no to the EU..But all this are bull..The thing is that the people simply dont want it anymore thats [...]

Read the full comment all.Even the pilots themselfs dont,this is why noone does the mistake.I think the last change regarding the borders in the balkans will be in Fyrom.And it will happen without war this time.This is not a secret anymore and i think this is better.

Despite my name (in Greek), I am not the same person posting as "Common Sense", but what he says does have a certain 'resonance of realism'.

It's a bit of a "doomsday scenario", but I can't really disagree with any of it.

The only thing his war-game omits is that, as Greece and Turkey struggle on the Eastern Front, Albania and Macedonia invade Greece from the western side.....'twas ever thus in the Balkans.

This is what I think;

Greece should shoot down at least one jet and Turkey responds with a sizable force. Greece declares war and Turkey declares war. Turkey starts invasion from Trace and captures closest islands while Greek Jets are pounding Smyrna and Constantinople. Turkey starts bombing Athens. At the same time, UN is trying to stop the war but it cannot meet with all members of security council. The meeting will be held after the 6th day of the Greek-Turkish war. During the sea war, Greece looses 5 Navy ships in different sizes and Turkey [...]

Read the full comment has 8 loss. Because of the strategic bombings Greece looses most of Hellenic air force, Turkey’s loss is unknown. According to the records, Greece and Turkey have only 10 days of large caliber ammunition (bombs, missiles, etc.) (according to the 7 to 10 rule, Turkey might have a little more than 13 days).

UN puts sanctions against both countries after the 10th day and NATO decides not to side with any country and warns all the countries that might side with any of these countries. The thought behind is not to convert a regional war to a world war. Because of the resource constraints, the war slows down to small militia activities, while Turkey looses one fifth of its 1 million peace time military force and drafts approximately 1 million additional soldiers, Greece drafts another 50,000, Greece’s loss is unknown. After 20th day, Turkey has most of Thrace and approximately 30 strategic islands, this is not due to any military is better than other, it is the geographical disadvantage of Mora peninsula and soldier head count. Both countries declare truce and negotiations start. Turkey and Greece cannot agree on the islands and Thrace. Turkey decides on continuing to occupy these lands in order to "protect himself".

Year 2050, negotiations are still going on between Greece and Turkey for the lands that was captured by “Turkish Imperialists” during a regional war in 2009. By the way the economies of these countries are still recovering and the cost of war is getting finally paid off. Weapon manufacturers’ stocks are higher than ever; they give more taxes to their countries and their economies are stellar.

Thanks Greece and Turkey, our kids can live a better life because of your differences. Can you fight again please?

For those who say why Greece doesnt do anything,basically its not that simple..First of all,the Turks have this habbit for years now basically since 1996,as the years are passing this whole thing looks like an exerice for the pilots from both countries!!Its like something common i would say..On the other hand its who will make the first move,I mean the Turks are coming the Greeks senting them back to their home,but in the end nobody dears to fire..Anyway maybe its better this way for both of as.The Bulgarians should keep this name(Sardic)and be very very carefull with him.Ive heard that [...]

Read the full comment he is moving to Bulgaria(he is in Greece the last 2 years)just be very carefull and protect the Pomachs.

A friend from Greece!Peace!!!

Agreed St Greg.
I am so ashamed of being Greek and constantly getting humiliated by these Turkish fighters. they flew over my Grandmother's Island last year and she was terrified. I am so sad greece gets abused like this and does nothing. It tells turkey our country is a joke which doesn't even deserve its independence from the the Ottoman yoke.

Maybe the news your reading might be what's one-sided? That would help explain why the blame here seems so one sidedly put on Turkey.

For example the article says nothing about Greek aircraft ever flying into Turkish airspace. I doubt that's because it never happens.

Greece allows islamic military to fly over its Islands (Andros?? - so close to Athens!) simplybecause Greece is populated by cowards who always complain about Turkey, but never act. Greece simply gets abused, humiliated and shamed by the Turkish incursions, and what does it do? Make a small complaint. If a Greek jet flew near Ankara, it would be shot down in one second. When Islamic jets fly over Greece, Greek offer them their back side.

Hey, folks, why don't we get incidents like this elsewhere in Europe / other NATO countries ? We don't often read of spats involving French jets over Germany or British planes over Spain.

Maybe both Greece and Turkey are playing "schoolboy games" with live armaments and expensive NATO aircraft ?

Shot them down. Enough is enough.

Shoot them down Greece

what would other countries do?? Temeber the passenger airliners that have been shot down for straying off course. Greece has international law behind them to shoot the jets down and are showing remarkable resilience in not doing so and escallating a possible dire outcome. Hats off to them but NATO should take serious sanctions against Turkey a memebr country

TX: "...do something more positive towards trying to stop them"

you mean like pull them over in mid-flight and offer them some tea and biscuits?

I do not understand why Greece keeps letting them do this and they just don't do something more positive towards trying to stop them.

shot first ask questions later

This comment has been removed by the moderator because it contained foul, abusive or discriminating language

USA: Hey turkey, you are our best friend in the region.
Turkey: ok, I can play a bit, right? Just enough to piss your other not so best friends and let them know that I am your best friend. Just in case they decide to not have the news in turkish anymore.

USA: Hey turkey, fly over greece today

Turkey: ok.


G, you're a moron. Get an education.

The Greeks should have shot the damn planes down. Enough is Enough with these american hand puppets.