Disappointment and frustration, leavened with a few notes of determination and optimism, have characterised official reaction in Skopje to the decision by the European Council of Ministers to delay naming a date for the start of EU accession talks with Macedonia.
The decision not to decide a date was taken to give Skopje and Athens time to resolve their dispute about the use of the name Macedonia, the EU’s top envoy to Macedonia, Erwan Fouere, was reported as saying.
Fouere said that the December 8 decision by the EU Council of Ministers should not be likened to the decision at a Nato summit in Bucharest in 2008 not to invite Macedonia to join the military alliance. Greece was behind the decision not to invite Macedonia to join Nato, against the urging of major members of the alliance including the United States.
Fouere said that the EU decision was made to extend an opportunity for the continuation of name talks with Greece, Balkan Insight said.
European Enlargement Commissioner Olli Rehn said that "silent diplomacy" was being conducted about the name dispute, adding that the recommendation of the EU foreign ministers was not discouraging, Macedonia’s Utrinski Vesnik said, according to Bulgarian news agency Focus.
"There was progress over the past period. It is a matter of silent diplomacy. Thus, let me make a silent commentary," Rehn told journalists in Brussels.
Swedish foreign minister Carl Bildt said that there was new momentum in Skopje-Athens relations.
Bildt said that he believed that Greek prime minister George Papandreou and Macedonian prime minister Nikola Gruevski wanted to achieve a solution and, Bildt said, he was "a bigger optimist than before".
Macedonia was not happy about the decision to delay naming a date for membership talks, but it would not give up the process of EU integration and of negotiations on the name dispute with Greece, Macedonian daily Dnevnik said on December 10.
"Up to now, Greece did not want such a solution; it put conditions, which no government could accept. During my talks with Greek prime minister George Papandreou I said that he would not find a government that could fulfil his conditions over the next 100 years," Gruevski was quoted by Dnevnik as saying.
On December 9, Macedonian Radio and Television quoted the country's justice minister Mihajlo Manevski as saying that Macedonia would secure a start date for its EU membership negotiations, but not at the expense of its identity.
"We are not discouraged by the EU's decision to put off setting a date for Macedonia's EU entry talks. We will proceed with our comprehensive reform agenda," Manevski said.
On December 8, Gruevski said that the events at the EU Council of Ministers meeting had unfolded as expected, because Greece had announced its intention several times to block Macedonia’s EU aspirations if the two nations could not find a mutually acceptable resolution to the name dispute.
Earlier the same day, Macedonian president Gjorge Ivanov said that the EU was guilty of double standards.
"We will not cave in to pressure to change our name or identity just to be a part of the EU. We've lived this (hi)story many times before, not again. Whatever the outcome of the talks in Brussels, Macedonia will stay right here. We have a European perspective that will be achieved together, with the support of all ethnic and religious communities, all parties and all citizens of Macedonia," Ivanov said.
Greek news agency ANA-MPA quoted Greece’s alternate foreign minister Dimitris Droutsas and Cyprus foreign minister Markos Kyprianou as having expressed, in a joint statement, their satisfaction with the decision about Macedonia, underlining that the positive results were supported by close coordination between Greece and Cyprus.
Meanwhile, Deutsche Welle, in a report on December 10, quoted Bulgarian Prime Minister Boiko Borissov as rejecting claims that Bulgaria had been among those that had blocked a date being named for Macedonia’s EU membership talks.
"Our position was the same as the one we agreed with Macedonian prime minister Nikola Gruevski. Bulgaria backs Macedonia," Borissov said, adding that claims that Sofia had stood in the way of Sofia’s hopes originated from people that wanted to foul bilateral relations between the two neighbouring countries.
Borissov declined to comment on whether Skopje would get a starting date for talks during the Spanish presidency of the EU, which will be in the first six months of 2010, but said that he hoped that the name dispute would be resolved soon.
Here is something new,the EU comission has told Greece to recognize the Macedonian minority.Will this help Greece to come out with the truth on their 99.9% mythical purity?. Will this help Greece to come to reality and recognize the Republic of Macedonia?.Will this make Greece to change the fabrication of history? Lets hope,they will recognize their mythical claims.
still being an anti-greco activist on sofia echo? funny how the husband of your queen is a greek... and we all know that the heir to the throne did not get his looks from his father!
PS - call yourselves of higher status than the Mediterranean but was it not and english king who had 7 wives and executed one of them because he falsely accused her of having slept with her brother? (poor Anne Boleyn!)
GMS - Many thanks for the compliment. I always knew you were an admirer really...just occasionally your inadvertent misuse of language got in the way. (I can meanwhile recommend "Les usuels de Robert : Dictionnaire de Proverbes et Dictons, une partie d'une collection de guides pratiques, consacres a la langue francaise et a la culture." Don't bother doing your usual nit-picking act about French genders - I'm typing this verbatim off the back cover of the book, so if you have any issues, contact La Maison Robert directly.)
Greek Macedonia SupremacyWed, Dec 30 2009 00:31 CET
Never mind the Albanian Brigands - probably the Moderators will get there first ! Or else the "Sense of Humour Guardians", employed by blogsite monitors the world over...
Clearly you, even though an avowed French speaker, have never read "Hara Kiri - Journal Bete et Mechant", published in Paris for some years now. This would make anybody blush !
Compared with that, this site is a model of decorum, propriety, and sweet language.
Greek Macedonia SupremacyTue, Dec 29 2009 22:37 CET
"I suggest we terminate this correspondence now, before those Macedonian or Albanian or Turkish brigands (your choice: there is a drop-down menu somewhere) come and get you out of your Ivory Tower and then do unspeakable things of which this site cannot approve...."
>>>After the insults, now the threat? What is the next degree of your madness, nasty man?
Fine - GMS - you now admit everything that I suggested, but with your customary bad grace.
I suggest we terminate this correspondence now, before those Macedonian or Albanian or Turkish brigands (your choice: there is a drop-down menu somewhere) come and get you out of your Ivory Tower and then do unspeakable things of which this site cannot approve....
Greek Macedonia SupremacyTue, Dec 29 2009 15:00 CET
To the silly Koinos Nous, let's analyze your aggressive-provocative-extremist comments:
"Meanwhile, I begin to get the imnpression that my earlier comment that:
<<Meanwhile, I guess that GMS is an elderly unemployed lawyer somewhere in Northern Greece with an axe to grind as he hasn't been paid this month... >>
is entirely accurate, especially as you now confirm that you live in Greek Macedonia."
>>>So your reasoning is : "I am living in Macedonia" > "therefore I am an unemployed lawyer?" Great logic! Congratulations! You [...]
"Now that the border has been re-opened with Macedonia's Schengen membership and the recent Greek concession, are you afraid about a visit from the original family who owned your house and land 50 years ago, before the Great Deportations ?"
Really nice one. Bravo! And let's combine it with this other quote of yours:
"I suggest, GMS, that you descend from your Ivory Tower somewhere near Athens (before the Macedonians invade it and hang you from the rooftops, that is)
>>>And then you say you have a scholar view and not a fanatic dream of a "Great Macedonia"...
"Ach, wie schwerigkeit mit idioten zu konversieren.....as they say in Koln."
>>>I do not need to speak German to understand that you think I am an "idiot" and you a scholar. You show a very nice attitude insulting the other interlocutors in different language there. Let me tell you that does not honour your person. But I think you even do not realize the bad image the people have from you on this blogsite. I will put it on the count of your disturbed psychology and your desperate jealousy of Greece.
The actual phrase in English is "to be precise", not "to be precised". But then I am tolerant of your many linguistic mistakes, much more so than you are about the linguistic mistakes of others.
Meanwhile, I begin to get the imnpression that my earlier comment that:
<<Meanwhile, I guess that GMS is an elderly unemployed lawyer somewhere in Northern Greece with an axe to grind as he hasn't been paid this month... >>
is entirely accurate, especially as you now confirm [...]
Now that the border has been re-opened with Macedonia's Schengen membership and the recent Greek concession, are you afraid about a visit from the original family who owned your house and land 50 years ago, before the Great Deportations ?
It rather sounds like it......
Greek Macedonia SupremacyTue, Dec 29 2009 13:08 CET
"Meanwhile, I guess that GMS is an elderly unemployed lawyer somewhere in Northern Greece with an axe to grind as he hasn't been paid this month..."
>>>A silly bias coming from a childish interlocutor. Not worth to comment.
>>>Northern Greece: to be precised, I am living in Macedonia, the real and only one who is and has always been inside the greek state. The upper region outside Greece is called Skopje or the Republic of Vardaska and is quite uninteresting.
GMS - you say << Skopje's dreams of the EU and NATO >> (as you say - exact quote) is your own dream-world version of this title.
In contrast, I merely said:
<< Macedonia's EU Aspirations >>.
The actual title of this heading is (SEE ABOVE) :
<< EU membership talks delay means ‘disappointment but not surprise’ in Macedonia >>
I leave it to other readers to judge who is the more accurate of the two of us.... [...]
Read the full comment
Meanwhile, I guess that GMS is an elderly unemployed lawyer somewhere in Northern Greece with an axe to grind as he hasn't been paid this month...
Greek Macedonia SupremacyMon, Dec 28 2009 19:48 CET
Before the Moderators enforce it upon us, GMS, I think this correspondence had better close. We are getting VERY OFF TOPIC, as the Topic originally was Macedonia's EU aspirations.
KONIEC - TERMA - TELOS
Greek Macedonia SupremacySat, Dec 26 2009 14:31 CET
Articles from 2008 now? Why not from 2002? Not really worth the reading...
I will not waste my time to reply to the three uninteresting and largely off-topic posts that you wrote below and which reflect more a desperate attitude than an objective and serious approach of the situation. We cannot do changes like "exclusion", "punishment" so easily inside the EU nowadays. In the uncivilized Skopje maybe, but in EU not.
Everything has already been said and perfectly explained from part, while there is still any proof from your part on the table that [...]
Read the full commentEU officials ever thought to show the exit door of the Eurozone to Greece, nor for Ireland...
Therefore I am afraid I cannot talk with you if you do not submit to this precondition, just like the change of the name of Skopje...
There are many similar comments from the US/Canadian financial world.
I am afraid that we in "Fortress Europe" cannot ignore such market sentiments from Across The Pond - look at the effect that the Lehmann Brothers collapse had on European economies last year and this year !
On [...]
Read the full commentthe other hand, I suppose we can all cry "Molon Lave" in our best Greek and expect the earth suddenly to become magically flat !
(MODERATORS - apologies that this (though interesting) is getting Off Topic: is there somewhere else on this site where we can follow up this highly topical thread instead ?
GMS - since you are clearly of the "earth is flat" belief about Greece leaving the EuroZone, here is something to suggest that the earth may be round after all:
Not a bad summing-up of the situation (with quotes from the Financial Times), and it accurately states that Ireland is in rather the same boat.
I can post lots more posts from the international financial community than this, and they all say the same thing. As with any major financial devaulation / [...]
Read the full commentrealignment (as we in the UK know well), the more denials there are, the more likely it is to happen.
I suggest, if you have any old drachma notes left, you carefully conserve them.....
GMS - On reflection, I should have explained a great deal more about how to read newspaper 'links', as clearly you did not realise you had to scroll down to the extreme end of the item (had you done so, you would have seen the exact verbatim extract that I had previously posted on this site).
I am being more polite than I would normally be to you, as others might find this topic interesting too.
Going "Top Down":
(a) the UK Financial Times is perhaps the best [...]
Read the full commentUK source of international economic news, and it is easily accessed on screen via Google. BUT - and this is a big BUT - you can't download or post a 'link'(except for a snippet twice in every 30 days, which is about as much use as a chocolate teapot.)
(b) the next is the Times, where you can download and post links (so far - they're going to tighten up in 2010). And in theory you can add comments on the end of the article you post. BUT - in practice, if you try to post a comment, the Times will email back to you to ascertain your professional credentials and experience first. ADVANTAGE - comments appended to an article (such as I recently posted here) are authoritative and relevant. DISADVANTAGE - don't even try to post comments to the Times yourself, unless you're Government Minister or of similar rank. The same notoriously applies to the Times "Letters" column.
(c) the Telegraph is similar to the Times, but slightly less strict.
(d) the Independent equally so, though politically more left-of-centre
(e) the Grauniad - sorry, Guardian, is even more left-of-centre, but famous/notorious for its spelling mistakes.
Hope this is helpful to EVERYBODY
Greek Macedonia SupremacySat, Dec 26 2009 12:51 CET
For the desperate argumentation of Mr. Koinos Nous, the advocate of the lost FYROM cause:
"(a) you didn't scroll down far enough. The comments below the article are all from professionals (The Times vets them extremely carefully to make sure they are authoritative and that those posting are qualified to comment), and one of them rehearses the possibility of Greek leaving not just the Eurozone, but the EU itself"
>>>Answer: this is laughable: you are talking about comments written by an unknown X person who read this article and expressed his personal [...]
Read the full commenttheory, just like you are doing. He is far from being a professional as you want us to believe it, but sounds more like one of those British Museum defenders of the Parthenon marbles... I can register an account there and write a comment too. That is not a big deal.
What I was waiting for you is comment from EU officials, that this thought of excluding Greece from the Eurozone ever came to their mind. But you failed to show me it... once again!
"b) the following article from last week's Daily Telegraph is even more illuminating:
Seemingly not only is Greece's enormous "defence" budget a State Secret from the EU, but even Papandreou may not know exactly what it is. The legacy of the Colonels Regime clearly lives on....
Even more "amusing" (to you and me but not to the EU Financial Authorities !) is the revelation that some Greek Ministries do not yet use standard double-column book-keeping, a mere 700 years after the Venetians invented it !!
(presumably the Greek Ministries concerned are also still using the abacus rather than computers !)
This will have gone down like the proverbial Ton Of Lead with the EuroZone authorities. What further revelations of poor Greek government fiscal practice have still to emerge, one asks oneself ?"
>>>Answer: lot of talks for finally nothing... You did not learn us anything new about the greek financial crisis. The greek government did not hide it and openly asked help from Brussels. There are current plans to restablish the situation under the own recommandations of the EU. And I have to remind you that any economical/political sanctions were taken by the EU till now... So no problem at all. You are definitely a drama queen.
"You can take it that, when I talk of the possibility of Greece leaving the EuroZone, I know of what I speak......"
>>>Answer: From what I read, the way you are desperately trying to manipulate some odd articles to convince anyone seems not indicate it...
That Greece would leave the Eurozone is just impossible and a crazy/unlogical theory on the top of that. Why? Because Greece would have to change the Euro and instead restablish the old drachma? Are you serious?? Haha, that would cost far more money to the EU than to help Greece with its financial crisis. And I do not count that all the euros will have to be reimprinted without euro written in greek, "ΕΥΡΟ"...
So nah, just for this, it will never happen. Sorry if I just demolished your utopic hopes...
On the other hand, we cannot talk about Skopje and the Eurozone. This project is too far to think seriously about it... Skopje would have first to enter the EU, do reforms to modernize its very old fashioned economy, change the name, etc, etc... Nah, that is still a dream...
(a) you didn't scroll down far enough. The comments below the article are all from professionals (The Times vets them extremely carefully to make sure they are authoritative and that those posting are qualified to comment), and one of them rehearses the possibility of Greek leaving not just the Eurozone, but the EU itself.
(b) the following article from last week's Daily Telegraph is even more illuminating:
Seemingly not only is Greece's enormous "defence" budget [...]
Read the full commenta State Secret from the EU, but even Papandreou may not know exactly what it is. The legacy of the Colonels Regime clearly lives on....
Even more "amusing" (to you and me but not to the EU Financial Authorities !) is the revelation that some Greek Ministries do not yet use standard double-column book-keeping, a mere 700 years after the Venetians invented it !!
(presumably the Greek Ministries concerned are also still using the abacus rather than computers !)
This will have gone down like the proverbial Ton Of Lead with the EuroZone authorities. What further revelations of poor Greek government fiscal practice have still to emerge, one asks oneself ?
You can take it that, when I talk of the possibility of Greece leaving the EuroZone, I know of what I speak......
Greek Macedonia SupremacyFri, Dec 25 2009 23:43 CET
OMG! Are you kidding me and the people of this blogsite, Mr Koinos Nous? I read your article and it is NOT the same one you wrote below with the link you provided me??! There is any single mention of "Greece being excluded from the Eurozone", but simply an analysis of the financial crisis...
Definitely you have some serious malfunctions with your argumentation...
Also some terrible french orthographic mistakes like "vriae orgeuil" instead of "vrai orgueil", "un" fois instead of "une" [...]
Read the full commentfois, "paraissuex" instead of "paresseux", seems to be the confirmation of a distorted language and a severe mark of illiteracy.
But what comes out from your weird personal story, is that you are unable to quote one article coming from an EU official. Thus, Greece encounters no danger with the Eurozone and that those words about exclusion/isolation of Greece come exclusively from your mouth.
GMS - rather a long quote from today's London "Times" (also see other headings on the Sofia Echo site):
<< Most analysts have failed to mention that since joining the euro, Greek retail prices have shot up, loans have become cheaper and more plentiful and patronage and corruption has ballooned out of all proportion. This example of bad governance is not helped by spiralling military spending, a still growing public sector and salaries and expenses for MPs and other Greek civil servants that make Germany, France and the UK look mean. Interestingly, many Greeks blame the [...]
Read the full commentEU and the European Bank for making too much money available and for enticing Greece to enter into large, expensive public sector projects. They forget that the Greek government has a choice to say no if it believes a project is not in its interests. They also forget that 10 million Greeks last year received almost 9 billion euros in EU handouts, more than Poland with a population of 40 million. Greeks who continue to blame everyone except themselves for their greed should take note that Stalin and Churchill sacrificed the liberty of Eastern Europe to allow Greece to be free after World War 2. It seems to me this was a big mistake -- Greece's Communist rebels should have been allowed to take over the country and Eastern European states should have been allowed to be free and outside the Stalinist bloc. If the Greeks continue to spend other people's money they should be shown the door and expelled from the EU (and also NATO, since most of them say they dislike it so much). Greece is no longer strategically important and should not, therefore, be allowed to blackmail its Western partners, when there are so many East European countries that are so much more deserving of Western aid such as Romania, Bulgaria, Slovakia, the Czech Republic, Poland, Hungary and the Baltic states. >>
I myself make no comment....
Greek Macedonia SupremacyFri, Dec 25 2009 16:35 CET
Let is be serious for Christmas: where did you read Greece will be excluded from the Eurozone? Give me at least ONE "serious" quote or source from distinguished EU officials which was saying it?
If you do not deliver me at least ONE quote, that will show nothing but negative/unrealistic feelings with a crazy dose of fanatism against Greece.
GMS - in which case, fYRoM could very well be joined by Greece, at least as far as exclusion from the EuroZone is concerned.
Kales Giortes....
meanwhile, even a five-year old child could calculate that establishing a "pariah state" on your own borders is Probably Not A Very Good Idea, especially if your own economy is weak.
just a thought to the wise...
Greek Macedonia SupremacyThu, Dec 24 2009 19:14 CET
Nah, it is not going to happen. Too much interests are in the game to afford to do a single modification to the actual VETO system.
I am sincerely afraid Fyrom will stay away from Europe for a very very long time...
GMS - Nah, the much more likely outcome is that the Council Secretariat and the members of the "Troika" ( the previous EU Presidency, the present Presidency, and the immediately future Presidency) will get together to disable the entire "single Member State" veto mechanism. Under the Lisbon Treaty they can in fact do this, but it needs a bit of organising.
Srecen Bozic. as they say in Slovenia for "Happy Christmas"....
Greek Macedonia SupremacyThu, Dec 24 2009 01:21 CET
This are actually good news for Greece. If more countries will apply the VETO, then the diplomatic game behind the exercize of VETO will be more complex and change. In a few words, we can expect some strategies between countries to block massively the entrance of Skopje for example and in return to let/block the accession talks of Serbia. I let you imagine the possibilities and obviously the great prejudice the generalization of the VETO can occur for Skopje...
Getting Back On Topic (hearty sigh of relief from Moderators !), on 22 December Serbia applied to join the EU.
Now this is going to make "Veto" into an art form - existing member-states will be queuing up in the EU Berlaymont building to apply it !
First in the queue will be Netherlands, still smarting over Srebrenice and their peace-keeping force being maltreated by Serbs.
Next in line will be Slovenia, for all the usual ex-Yugoslav reasons (the Slovenes basically don't want any other ex-Yugoslav states into [...]
Read the full commentthe EU. They haven't vetoed Macedonia yet, but only because the Greeks have done the job for them so far.)
Queueing behind Slovenia will be Croatia (if it has managed to force/bribe its way into the EU despite the Slovene veto), and then Denmark and Finland.
And then will come Hungary, with its own Serb issues in Voivodina, and finally possibly Bulgaria, who owes the Serbs no favours during the past 20 years (let alone the Balkan long-memory factor.)
Happy Days to Come - a Veto a Day Keeps the Balkans Away !
Aries - I'm not at all trying to revise Homer (moi ?), but what's the Ancient Greek for the English texts that you quote ?
I must admit that I was better at Xenophon, who has 'douloi' now and again as well as lots of mentions of bustards (grateful if you can remind me of what the Ancient Greek for "bustard" is, and no - Peggy - I haven't made a spelling mistake.)
I must admit that, of the two ancient languages, I preferred Latin at school, although the flexible and inventive [...]
Read the full commentway that Ancient Greek used participles was rather attractive, and the Lidell&Scott Greek lexicon was much better than its Latin equivalent.
Also, I don't recall the Romans writing great drama, whereas the Ancient Greeks certainly did.
The trouble is, that modern Athens certainly isn't Ancient Greece in any respect (except for the alphabet), any more than Trastevere is Ancient Rome. And the area around Roma Termini station is definitely best avoided....
Well, Aries, thanks for the Greek text of what we call the "Nunc Dimittis" (Lord, lettest Thou Thy servant depart in peace), but I'm not sure which side of the case you are supporting. Or possibly neither.....
You seem to be agreeing with me that "sklavos" is not Classical Greek, and is derived from the later Latin word "esclavus".
As for the older word "doulos", it seems to have changed its meaning slightly over time during the Classical period; my recollection is from Homer that it meant "slave" in a rather more [...]
Read the full commentliteral sense (definitely with exploitation, and probably chains too.)
Not sure that this will get our Australian friends anywhere except to crack open another stubbie (can of beer) over the barbie (barbecue), but it doesn't seem likely that there is any direct reference to Slavonic culture or history.
Koinos.Nous
Category error
1) In the Classic Times of Athens there was no word ΣΚΛΑΒΟΣ
2) ΣΚΛΑΒΟΣ Sklavos or Slave are attributed to someone who is working under conditions of exploitation
3) Doulos is used in the Holy Scriptures with the sense of servitude without exploitation in modern Greek ΔΟΥΛΕΙΑ means work which in turn means ΕΡΓΑΣΙΑ
ΣΥΜΕΩΝ
Νυν απολύεις τον δούλον σου
Δέσποτα, κατά το ρήμα σου εν ειρήνη,
ότι είδον οι οφθαλμοί μου το σωτήριόν
σου … Φως εις αποκάλυψιν εθνών [...]
Read the full comment
και δόξαν λαού σου Ισραήλ».
Simeon says when he is given infant Jesus Christ before Salomon’s temple thus seeing Him cries out
Simeon
<< Now , You can relieve Your servant of his life,
as You have promised , in peace. For my eyes
Have seen the Savior …. Light for all nations
and to the Glory of your people Israel>>
===================================Servant is used and not slave.
the modern Greek Sklavos Derives
from the latin Esclavus.
I accept the SERF version.
In brief, the Greek word "sklavos" is very late Byzantine Greek (c.1000 AD), and is derived from the Latin "esclavus", and the early French word "esclave". The Greek word does NOT appear to have been known or used in Ancient or Biblical Greek, which should settle one argument at least !
And, as I [...]
Read the full commentsaid before, it seems to have covered a variety of positions from absolute personal imprisonment to "serf" time (or servitude) labour for a Lord of the Manor for a fixed period of days' work per year, which existed in nearly all Northern European countries until the sixteenth century, and in France rather longer.
I take your point, but the linguistic distinction between "servant" and "slave" in a very fine one - the Confederate States in the US always used to refer to their slaves as "servants", for a start ("unpaid servants") of course !
Classical English-Greek thesaurus dictionaries such as the reputed Liddell & Scott always translate "doulos" as "slave", which is good enough for me (and probably also good enough for Xenophon and Herodotus.)
New Testament Greek is often a victim of its translators, as many theologians have [...]
About "Slava" (glory) versus "Slovo" (word) there is less of a firm academic reference, though the point about "Nie miec" referring to the "speechless" Germans remains unanswered if you adopt the "Slava" theory; the early Slavs clearly seem to have adopted a kinship criterion of who understood whom and who didn't.
Mind you, even the "Slava / Glory" theory doesn't fit if the word is meant to mean "slave" !
I look forward to GMS's informed and masterly contribution in due course....
No mate had to ask around at the pub and me Greek mates reckon that slave comes from sklavos which was what they called all these Yugislavs back then. Your doulos mate happens to mean worker, servant, etc. Me Yugislav mates on the other hand reckon that slovo is also a name so I dunno.
Wheres me mate Dr. Yugislav I was betting down the pub he would've had an answer for me Yugislavs with Gold teeth question. The boys reckon he'll have a good answer and I can't wait actually. Come on doc get your act together [...]
Read the full commentand ask some of your Yugislav mates why they all wear gold teeth. Ah yeah and don't forget an answer why you stealing our Aussie (Dr.Oz)identity when we all know you are a Yugislav from the Yugislavia lands.
K.Nous
<<<(1) the Greek word for "slave" is actually "doulos", both in Ancient and in Mediaeval / Modern Greek. Certainly in the Greek New Testament it is "doulos", declined the same way as "thanatos". The Greek surname "Christodoulos" (slave of Christ) is a good example
>>>
================================
I think That "servant" instead of slave would be more correct and more "a propos" with The Holy
Scriptures
As for the Slav I am not sure if Slovo "the Word " "LOGOS" or
Slava "Glory" "DOXA" [...]
Jeffery - 'fraid there are two slight flaws in your argument, cobber:
(1) the Greek word for "slave" is actually "doulos", both in Ancient and in Mediaeval / Modern Greek. Certainly in the Greek New Testament it is "doulos", declined the same way as "thanatos". The Greek surname "Christodoulos" (slave of Christ) is a good example.
(2) the word "Slav" actually derives from the term "slovo", meaning 'word' in all Slavonic languages. So the Slavs were the people who had "the word". Hence the term "Niemiec" to describe the Germans in Slav [...]
Read the full commentlanguages - "nie" means 'not', and 'miec' means 'to speak' in older Slavonic, so the Germans were "those who do not speak", i.e. those who do not have "the word".
This is slightly over-simplifying obviously, as whole books have been written on this issue, but that's basically the origin of both words.
So I'm afraid that your blokes in the pub got this one a bit wrong.
I don't know if any native-Greek speakers want to comment on this, but even GMS might find it hard to disagree for once.
Oh come on mate! Dr. Yugislav the reason I reckon the Greeks have a better stake to their identity than you Yugislavs is that Aussie history has taught us that Alexander the Great was a famous general who spread Greek civilisation. You can't argue with that mate regardless you already have a Yugislav ethnicity. We been talking at the pub an the word is you Yugislavs are called slavs because you were once upon a time slaves of the Greeks when you came to that land in middle ages. I mean thats an unreal way to get an identity slaves=slavs [...]
Read the full commentunreal or what. Who would have thought that your mob who were once slaves now want to change to a Greek name. Why didn't you change that when all your lives you are called Yugislavs and especially here in OZ mate where if you don't say Yugislavs no-one knows who are. You still haven't answered Doc Yugislav why so many of your Yugislav countrymen all wear Gold teeth is it what the word is a head swelling exercise or is it to promote your identity. If you remember Tony the Yugislav in the movie he showed how Yugislav culture hasn't changed for years. Another question Dr. Yugislav if you are a Yugislav why do you call yourself Oz when that is stealing our identity in Oz is it a Yugislav pastime to hijack everyones ID or what. I reckon that the boys down at the pub are right that Yugislav history is younger than our Aussie history and we are happy to civilise you and educate you on world history.
So dr. Yugislav have a reply about you Yugislav gold teeth and why you hijacking our Aussie ID.
Come On Aussie, Come on, Come on.
Greek Macedonia SupremacyMon, Dec 21 2009 00:13 CET
To Koinos Nous: now I understand from where comes your communist approach of the Skopje conflict... Adoration to the Great Alexander, - sorry -, "Great Lenin" seems to be your moto.
As for the greek KKE, it is now an old-fashioned party mostly ruled by old generation persons. It will soon disappear from the greek political map. Such ideas cannot work any longer nowadays.
GMS - how dare you ! The immortal V.I.Lenin is/was never wrong. His legacy was somewhat traduced by neo-revisionists under Leon Trotsky, that is true. And Jozef Dhughashvili (a.k.a. Stalin) did him no favours either. (Note how I spell "favours"....) But the Great Man had a vision that still inspires Leninists and true Marxists today.
I suppose Greece always has the KKE as supposed beneficiaries of the "Lenin Legacy", but they always appear to be more pre-occupied with local in-fighting (and Hating the Turks / Bulgarians / Albanians / fyrMacedonians as well.) God, doesn't Greece like [...]
To Koinos Nous, the "V.I.Lenin" reference is not a good quote: look what happened to the USSR...
Though there are good chances this case applies to FYROM in one-two years.
GMS - the Athenians had a very clear idea about how their "polis" ("city-state" to those who don't read Greek) was different from all others in Ancient Greece, and since their population was more inclined to literature as compared to (say) Sparta, they have left us quite a lot of record of this.
Greece might be better employed these days in working out how best to get itself out of its current financial mess, rather than speculating yet again about ancient history.
As the immortal V.I.Lenin said, it is modern history that [...]
Aries,you have to be blind or maybe ignorant not to understand why Mitsotakis did not take Milosevices proposal.Remember,Bulgaria has part of Macedonia and Albania as Greece has.What part of Macedonia would they have gone after you think? I wonder,why Mitsotakis bribed so many journalists,publishers and shamefuly I will admmitt the highest office of the Republic of Macedonia.The names are published where the money ended up.Macedonias Prime Minister Gruevski has accomplished more in just 2 years than Crvenkovski,Frckovski,Sekerinska and others combined.Those Macedonians who have accepted money in black garbage bags simply are the garbage of the Republic of Macedonia.The reason of [...]
Read the full commentthe delay to joing the NATO and EU is the obstruction of these same people who have sold their sole to a foreighn country-Greece.I guess,Georgievski did not get anything from Greece since he turned out to be sold to Bulgaria.I wonder if he got something from the Bulgarians.On the Greek side though,you should be ashamed of Karamanlis declairing that the Pontious are the real ancient Macedonians.Why than a double standard?.Why Greece,the none Pontious are claiming they are the ancient Macedonians? Can three identities claim one identity?.How can a Greek Albanian (40%) the population of Greece claim to be Macedonian?.I bet my bottom penny,you are unable to answer these questions historicly,dont bother politicly as we know where that will get us.The EU need to have guts to tell Greece to stop the historical lies it spreads.EU,must tell Greece to stop using the money given to them by the EU for political purposes,but invest in peoples interest.The longer Greece objects to Macedonias membership the worst for Greece,mark my word.Suggestion;Read what Karakasidou and Skoulariki have said on the Macedonian question,than maybe we can have a meaningful discussion.
Greek Macedonia SupremacySun, Dec 20 2009 17:35 CET
To the schizophrenic Dr Jekyl and Mr. Hide, - sorry I should to say, Dr Oz and Mr. Koinos Nous -, you would do to all of us a favor for Christmas if you decide to stop to copy paste everytime your old revisionnist articles with your distorted facts and own "abracadrabesque" interpretations of the World History, because they will convince anyone except you...
Every normal person knows the Greek History well, while Skopje's one remains really obscure and quite uninteresting at the end.
Also you reach a very low level of [...]
Read the full commentculture when you decide to distinguish Greeks from Macedonians, Thracians, etc. Soon you will separate Athenians from the Greeks. Not only your ridiculous approach is very wrong, but it proves to all of us that you have no idea what Greeks are as a civilization.
I would suggest you to waste all your energy for the promotion of the history of Vardaska instead. There is maybe something to get out from it.
And - Moderators - please do not block this on grounds of "spam - repeated content". I am simply trying to ensure that what I intended to post in the first instance actually gets posted !
Ozy.
Oh ! dear not again !!!
Back to square one !!!
The sun rises in the east sets in the west wether you revisionists like or not.
Come up with something smarter.
Cheers
Koinos Nous, as to the article you suggest we read, again some historians I feel mislead the public in their inaccurate descriptions.
Where he states," traditional Greek lands of Macedonia and Thrace", should have stated that the Greeks had colonies in Macedonia and Thrace and totally ignores the other cultures that have resided in these areas since ancient times!
It is to these biased historians that the Greeks have any legs to stand on!!!
Je regrette respectivement d'etre en desaccord.
Jeffrey, I see you improved your English writing skills since your last post, I guess you can thank me for that.
I should not have taken your bait, as your chides have become pathetic and just take on more and more the repetitive uneducated Greek line of promoting hate and racism, from I'm sure a hero of yours called Hitler!!!
Un qui jette des accusations doit les soutenir avec l'intelligence pas avec un espirit vide!!!
I know that GMS will immediately leap to decry Wikipedia, but this is an exceptionally well-researched entry that quotes a good number of external academic sources, and is studiously neutral in its analytical approach.
Would that some of the postings on this site observed the same discipline !
My dear Greek friends, I see I have been admonished, by the moderator and I must apologize for stooping to the Greek level of belittling and insults!
To the discouragement of Aries and G.M.S., I am not Koinos Nous's shadow.
It's seems also I must watch my spelling as it is also susceptible to stern criticism, which seems hypocritical since I have seen many grammar mistakes made by my honourable and arrogant Greek friends.
Now how can I rebut such distinguished answers from my Greek friends without encoring the wrath of the moderator? Oh [...]
Read the full commentyes, Macedonia will join the E.U. in 2010 and all Macedonians will rejoice as one!!!
Oh come on Dr. Yugislav our Aussie language is not that different from any other English. You know mate I'm actually liking this new Greek identity stuff its pretty cool. My mate Zoran would disagree but like most Yugislavs his command of Australian is as good as most migrants in our country. Dr. Yugislav you oughta get out more mingle with our Aussie culture get to learn our lay back lifestyle and then you Yugislavs would for sure mingle more with Aussies. Just comin back to why so many of your Yugislav people have gold teeth. Last night at the [...]
Read the full commentpub me mate luigi who is Italian background said that Yugislavs were the last people in Europe to break out of poverty and high level of uneducated people, so gold teeth was a way you Yugislavs could show all your neighbours how well of you were hiding your poverty. I reckon mate that makes good sense. When my ancestors came here in the convict boats they only had the rags on their backs mate nothin else. So it makes sense mate that there are many Yugislavs today who need gold teeth to show their fellow Yugislavs how well off they are and their individual importance. You know Dr. Yugislav there ain't that many Yugislavs who can speak proper Australian most even have a strong accent and also born here that is bad social skills. Mate you should embrace the land you migrate and not create little ghettoes its not fair to everyone. Look at the Italians, Chinese, Greeks, Spanish, Portuguese thay all have integrated mate but your mob Dr. Yugislav still hang together. If you go to any primary or high school you can spot the Yugislavs because of their funny shaved, rattail hairdo's hanging in the corner of the playground speaking Yugislav. Not good mate you oughta tell your Yugislav mates Dr. yugislav that they should become part of our Aussie people and not be an unecessary burden on us. Well mate do you Yugislavs have christmas the same time as us if you do have a good one.
Come On Aussie, Come on , Come on.
*******Sun, Dec 20 2009 02:08 CET
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Greek Macedonia SupremacySat, Dec 19 2009 23:48 CET
Godness, the last posts of Koinos Nous with the Molon lave lessive were so, humm, impressive... Really, I am speechless by this skopjan cultural knowledge. I understand better know why people from this country think they are the inheritors of Alexander and are building crazy greek statues. This is simply part of a genetic syndrome, I cannot explain it differently.
Koinos NousSat, Dec 19 2009 21:52 CET
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Aries.Sat, Dec 19 2009 21:27 CET
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Aries.Sat, Dec 19 2009 21:27 CET
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Koinos NousSat, Dec 19 2009 20:55 CET
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Aries.Sat, Dec 19 2009 20:44 CET
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<<nothing to do with ancient Egyptians they are of Arab / Nubian descendance the real descendents of the Egyptians are the Copts most of them Christianized through the ages. >>
....this is analogous to modern Greece (read the iGenia DNA files !). Somewhere, someplace, there may well be ethnic descendants of Ancient Greeks dotted around the Aegean basin (as much in Turkey as in modern Greece !)
But elsewhere, as iGenia says, the modern Greek population appear to be as "de nature heteroclite" [...]
Read the full comment(i.e. heavily ethnically mixed) as anywhere else in Europe, with the possible exception of the Balts and the Bretons, who were simply too far away for ethnic miscegenation to occur.)
I don't recall any ethnic distinction in Egypt between Copts and other Egyptians, except that some of the Copts had red hair...I suppose a genetic market of sorts.
Aries.Sat, Dec 19 2009 19:31 CET
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K.Nous/Oz.
<<<Well, there's always the earlier example of the Ancient Egyptians, who set up an even more impressive ancient civilisation < 1000 years before Ancient Greece; thanks to the Rosetta Stone we can now understand what their hieroglyphics signified.
Compare their civilisation with the modern Egyptians...do I need to press the analogy any further ?
Or maybe a walk round the soukh in Luxor would do the trick >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
As usual when cornered you start displaying “unexpected ignorance”
About the Rosetta stone (R.s) I was [...]
Read the full commentthe one who first attecked the subject in a former post responding to a mind game publication which no more no less stated that the middle language on the R.s was Ancient Macedonian.
The Rs as known is a slab of basalt on which archeologists found engraved with three scriptures first the Hieroglyphic the language of the Priests and educated Egyptians second the Demotic or Coptic the language of the less educated and third language was the lingua franca of all the Mediterranean of the time Ancient Greek.
My point is that the people at Luxor’s soukh have nothing to do with ancient Egyptians they are of Arab / Nubean descendance the real descendents of the Egyptians are the Copts most of them Christianized through the ages.
The sun rises in the East!.
cheers
"Classics" at university is nothing to do wuth modern politics - read Bismarck on that one - and (as I posted earlier) Egypt is rather a good example.
Dr Oz and I are not the same person, but we share the same Secret Witches Coven in Transylvania so as to plot even more dastardly deeds against Agia Ellas / Holy Greece, with the aid of the Romanian government and our old friend Count Dracula (him of the many empty coffins).
Our patron is Stefan Cel Mare Si Sfint, former ruler of the [...]
"Molon Lave" (in Romanian / Moldovan) is a well-known brand of washing-powder / lessive inherited from the Communist days. But is does wash "whiter than white", so people still but it (a bit like some Communist-era products have done quite well in today's united Germany.)
<< Persil washes white, but Molon Lave washes even whiter...>>
Ozy/Koinos.nous
<<<Wow! You Greeks amaze me, not only are your uneducated, foul and demeaning but you intellectuals get the same way when cornered!(must be a Greek trait, found in you D.N.A)
Aries your words trying to associate me with the stazi, simply shows your great fear that ___________we Macedonians ___________are right and so you try the old trick of associating your opposition to the evil side. As for your demand for references that has been quite fulfilled by others who have done so splendidly, but seems to be arrogantly dismissed by yourself.
>>> [...]
Read the full comment/>
We Macedonians my foot it is We
Macedonian in disguise mon vieux go play around AS MUCH AS YOU LIKE with the INGEA
but refer too to Cambridge , Oxford , Harvard ,Berlin, Sorbonne, just to name a few,
libraries on classics.
We Greeks are not very much different from other people ceteris paribus but when we
hear nonsense and specially we react To peoples who try to prove that THE SUN RISES IN
THE WEST to justify their existence.
To assist you in your quest in Marxian Economics ,satisfy the Marxian side of you thru Joan Robinson’s Essay on Marxian Economics which the late Professor examines the Economic only implications of Marxism I would suggest “The Accumulation of Capital” her Grand Opus. She was a legend in her field I can assure you.
about being corenered
"on ne parle pas de corde dans la maison d'un Pendu "
how many times do i have to tell
you that.
Greek Macedonia SupremacySat, Dec 19 2009 17:54 CET
Well see, Aries: Koinos Nous & Dr Oz are the same person. Because Koinos Nous is unable to give strenght to his silly arguments against Greece, he needs an alter ego to prove he is right while he is not. Kinda schizophrenic for an attitude...
Also I have the worse difficulties to understand where his reasonings are going such like this one:
"Doubtless the Greek "veto" will re-kindle and recall such memories amongst Macedonia's more elderly inhabitants....."
>>>I cannot get what Macedonia and the Greek veto have in [...]
Read the full commentcommon, since Macedonia is Greek and in Greece. A weird paradox...
I would not mention his strange (morbid) interpretation of the "Emphylios Polemos" which sounds like a clear provocation (Skopjans are the best for that) and which has nothing to do with Skopje's non- entrance to the EU and NATO.
It is because of distorted minds like Koinos Nous and Gruevski that the poor country of Skopje cannot advance logically and is still lost in the middle of nowhere on the map. They are building instead giant meaningless statues and falsified identities.
Well, there's always the earlier example of the Ancient Egyptians, who set up an even more impressive ancient civilisation < 1000 years before Ancient Greece; thanks to the Rosetta Stone we can now understand what their hieroglyphics signified.
Compare their civilisation with the modern Egyptians...do I need to press the analogy any further ?
Or maybe a walk round the soukh in Luxor would do the trick instead ?
GMS - If I recall correctly, (which of course I may not do) Greece had a little local misunderstanding involving not only Macedonia but also the ethnicity of its inhabitants from 1946 to 1949, in which apparently 10% of the Greek population died.
I know you don't like Wikipedia as you think it's biased against Greece, so here is a much better link to what was called at the time "Ellenikos Emphulios Polemos" (Greek Civil War - to non-Greek speakers).
Doubtless the Greek "veto" will re-kindle and recall such memories amongst [...]
I like the bit about concentration camps for Slav-speakers within Greek territory and their subsequent deportation - maybe some Macedonians remember this ?
*******Sat, Dec 19 2009 15:28 CET
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K.Nous.
Yes mate "Hellenic, Roman, and Byzxantine Cultural Imperio in Europe (greek name).
if you need proofs on that just visit the libraries of all civilized nations' Universities.
ne fait surtout pas "l'inteligent" mon vieux
Greek Macedonia SupremacySat, Dec 19 2009 13:36 CET
You are a wise man: you finally recognize the superiority of Greece and its great history and cultural heritage are entire part of your knowledge nowadays. You cannot live without it I noticed.
I love the fact that a slavic country as Skopje is so poor that it is stealing a part of Greece's greatness to get some prestige in their unexistant history.
I love also the fact that Greece is the number one investor in Skopje and generously gives a hand to their miserable neighbours, so they can avoid the starvation. [...]
I will love even more the fact that the game over is coming soon for Skopje: it will have to be renamed into "Northern Macedonia", and Greece will get the monopole of the undisputed original "Macedonia" name.
GMS - yes, Greece has quite some experience in forcible tuition of the Hellenic tongue to ethnic Slavs, especially in the mid-1940s, and you are right to remind us of this splendid Hellenic tradition of cultural imperialism.
Maybe there's a stock of the old 1945 Greek-language textbooks that could be re-used ? There are probably quite a few in Lerin/Florina, for a start.....
JefferySat, Dec 19 2009 11:39 CET
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Greek Macedonia SupremacySat, Dec 19 2009 11:32 CET
"Koinos Nous" and now "Molon Lave", well, it seems I have to moderate your hellenophobic views, since you cannot resist to utilize the greek language in your posts. You just did there the first step for the recognition of greek as the official language of "Republic of Northern Macedonia".
Well, as I posted earlier, always expect the unexpected !
Slovenia has decided to block Croatia's EU Accession again, for unspecified reasons (but we know it's not the border dispute !) This has prompted something of an outburst from the Swedes:
<< Carl Bildt, Sweden's foreign minister, said after Slovene foreign minister Žbogar's comments:
“We will not allow anyone to politically veto their neighbours, as this is not the way we work in Europe" >>
This Swedish statement could apply to Greece as much [...]
Read the full commentas to Slovenia.
Expect some last-minute action from the Swedish EU Presidency.....
Peter/Petraki
When i hear you people shoving around such nonsense the only thing that comes to my mind is
Why that Mitsotakis did not accept the Milosevic proposal.
leka nost.
Aries,did you read the report from Elefterotypia who bribes whom?.Who paid millions of dollars to the journalists Greek and Macedonian,including the former President of the Republic of Macedonia Crvenkovski,Frckovski and just reasontly Frckovski with Trifun secret meeting in a restaurant.I wrote on this issue long time ago,and I was right.Never the less,please read the repport that the bribes started since 1945 and intensified durring 1990 and former Greek PM Mitsotakis. Dr. Oz,I respect your oppinion greatly,thank you. To Macedonia always greece,you my dear fellow have no idea what you are talking.I wont bother giving you a reason for this comment. [...]
GMS - We have the international right to use our own name /appellation for other countries , so we'll call it "Macedonia" for as long as we want to do so.
Until of course the Greek Navy (?)decides to blockade us, those parts of it that haven't been sold to the Turks or re-possessed by the Americans, that is.
Molon Lave ! - preferably in a rowing-boat !
Greek Macedonia SupremacyFri, Dec 18 2009 21:50 CET
We do not really care how your country uses to call Skopje nowadays, but I guarantee you it will soon have anymore the right to call it "Macedonia".
It will be forced to call it "Republic of Northern Macedonia" and for the greek region, well, you will spell it "MACEDONIA", the real and original name.
To Dr. Oz, your language is really insulting for all the members of this blogsite and I should even not give any attention. But I will try to be as diplomatic as I can for the few uncorrected things you mentionned:
1/Macedonian language: it cannot be accepted by Greece, since it is an artificial thing. Macedonian language simply never existed. Or if it ever existed in the Ancient Alexander Times (something we cannot prove at 100% historically wise), this language is lost and has little to do with the one actual of Skopje.
I [...]
Read the full commentam sorry, but this "macedonian" language is something you create and not something that already existed.
2/Far from me this curious idea you have that I ask for violence in Skopje. I am in favor of peace, but the dangerous position taken by Skopje will not create damages for Greece, but there are some possibilities it will explode in the face of the Skopjans.
3/Also the main problem is not to call Skopjans as "Macedonians". Geographically, Greece already accepted to call them "Macedonians" in the proposals of Nimetz such as "Republic of Northern Macedonia". But what Greece does not accept - and for obvious reasons - is that Skopje wants to monopolize the name "Macedonians" and its identity and ignore the fact that Macedonians are also Greek people called like this since thousand of years, just like Athenians, Spartans, etc.!
So, no, in those conditions, Greeks cannot accept it. The "Macedonian" name must be shared between both people, or it will not.
Dr Oz or whatever
<<<Aries your need for references is a need to justify Greece's existence, as you really feel it is modern Greece the needs to explain it's non homogeneous race!
>>>
This is a comment which has its roots deep in the "soviet disimformation system"
or the "Stazi"
its you the fool always evasive
whem cornered.
My well intentioned ill informed Greek friends (i.e. Aries, G.M.S, Jeffrey and others). I see the range of your oikoyeveia consists a journalist, lawyer, pretender, and fool, but what I don't see is any clear reason why Macedonians can't be called Macedonians!
Aries your need for references is a need to justify Greece's existence, as you really feel it is modern Greece the needs to explain it's non homogeneous race!
G.M.S your call for violence. doom and gloom in the midst of Greece's potential bankruptcy, shows that you feel that to back up a lie is [...]
Read the full commentto create havoc!
Jeffrey to make up an identity, shows us you are afraid of the truth and the repetitive nature of using a different name other then Macedonia, only fulfills your insecurity!
For the fools out there foul, demeaning and belittling language, only shows us that you are fools!
Listen Jeffery, it is one thing to be informed by studies, and personal experience of a culture but quite another by a movie. Our people need no British lessons as we have had them time and time again. If it is to our Macedonian identity you refer to then I strongly disagree with your mediocrity. We have just as much right to be called Macedonians as the Greeks have. Although I will always respect those among the Greeks who have Macedonian heritage I similarly expect that they (and you) respect us Macedonians who have a Slavic heritage. I have come [...]
Read the full commentto understand in the last few years that our identity is a shared one and as such support understanding. The people in multicultural Australia should know very well that identity is created by the very people who breathe it and not by the imperial motherlands. Reading at uni yesterday I discovered that your Australian identity was created in 1901 and that many of your countrymen hold close ties to their British ancestors. It is in the same way that our Macedonian people hold close what is dear to them, their ancestors in Europe.
Yeah Dr. Yugislav (Oz) I'm an Aussie who just happens to support my Macedonian friends who for years have invited our Aussie clan to their parties. There's nothing wrong with being Yugislav Doc. its just part of who you are. My Macedonian friends in melbourne reckon that there are heaps of Yugislavs who like to also call themselves Macedonians but got to far when they claim the most famous of all Macedonians Alexander the Great who spread Greek civilisation. It must be hard for you Yugislavs Doc. to have a neighbour like Greece with its famous history and all and [...]
Read the full commentyour Yugislavs only have is Burek to be proud of which I found out mate is actually Turkish (maybe mate you also have turkish mix). Look Dr. Yugislav our Aussie culture is mainly British our forefathers colonised the place just like the Greeks under Alexander colonised the East. I guess the Yugislavs colonised somewhere but to be honest mate I have no idea where. I you remember the cult movie the 'wogboy' you Yugislavs apparently lived in chicken pens I mean mate not bad everyone has to start somewhere. The British like the Greeks, Romans all had empires in the past the Yugislavs seem only to have had Burek. By the way the Greeks also make Burek so it ain't only Yugislav food.
Come on Aussie, Come on, Come on.
Greek Macedonia SupremacyFri, Dec 18 2009 01:05 CET
To my dear friend and orthodox brother Koinos Nous, I think I can return you the comments below for your anti-hellenic/hellenophobic views expressed openly many times on this blog:
"If somebody like GMS posts something distinctly lurid and even apocalyptic (references to Sword of Damocles etc.), then others are quite entitled to take the posting at face value and respond appropriately.
If in doubt, take the plain sense of the words used. In this case GMS used words more appropriate to the Last Judgment or Dante's Inferno, but maybe his English isn't [...]
comment.
Out of the myriad of classicists Donski picked up the late
Felix Jacobi
<<As a Jew I find myself in a difficult position. But as a historian I have long learned not to view historical events from a private perspective. I have voted for Adolf Hitler since 1927 and I am happy that in the year of the National Rising I am allowed to lecture on Augustus.
Because Augustus is the only figure in world history that may be compared to Adolf Hitler.
The rest is silent. [...]
To Peter and Nicola
The following is a litle example
of who is trying via Propaganda to misinform who.
The Lost Writings Of The Ancient Macedonians.
The Macedonian public knows very little about the
dozens of historians that have described the history of ancient
Macedonia in detail, and other states as well. Some are contained
in written manuscripts, but these material proofs are not readily
accessible to today’s reader. Unlike many numerous works by
ancient authors, Greek and others, these manuscripts are [...]
Read the full commentnot
found on the internet, nor are they easily found in libraries.
However, a good portion of original historical materials,
written by ancient Macedonian historians, have been found
in the private collection of the German professor, Felix Jacoby
(1876 – 1959). A professor of classical philology in Kiel for 30
years, he resumed teaching at Oxford in 1939. During his career,
he collected several thousand fragments from texts by ancient
writers, most of which have been transmitted by successive
authors. Among these are fragments of the writings of 15 ancient
Macedonian historians. The Macedonian ethnic identity of these
historians is evident by the attachment of the identifier, “The
Macedonian”, added to the writer’s name, or by a particular
Macedonian topographic name denoting their place of birth.
Today Prof. Jacoby’s collection is accessible in a costly
electronic form. Access to this material was made possible when
Prof. Maria Kubaiska (in honour of her daughter Emilia Doneva
Kubaiska) kindly acquired it and placed it at the disposal of the
author of this article.
The initial survey of this material, containing fragments
from the lost works of more than 850 ancient historians, clearly
reveals the names of 15 Macedonians. Among them are: Marcia
from Pela, Kriton of Pieria, Anhang the Macedonian, Antigon
the Macedonian, Antioch the Aegean, Antipater the Macedonian,
Marcia from Philipi, Phillip from Amphipole, Pole the Aegean,
Ptolomy the son of Lag, and others. Prof. Jacoby’s collection
contains several hundred additional ancient historians. It is very
probable that some of these writers too are ethnic Macedonians,
an issue which has yet to be scientifically deciphered, since their
names have yet to be ethnically or geographically defined.
Regarding the contents of the lost works by ancient
Macedonian historians, we know that Prof. Jacoby carefully
compiled them from the preserved fragments of other ancient
writers These fragments provide compelling evidence that most
of these writers dealt with the history of ancient Macedonia. For
example, the ancient Macedonian historian Marcia from Pela,
who is described as a Macedonian aristocrat, is also referred to
as the one who created the “most detailed patriotic history of
his time” (“The Dictionary of the History of Ideas” Electronic
Text Center; University of Virginia Library, 2003).
The upcoming release of these materials to the public
will illuminate new findings in Macedonian historiography.
By Alexander Donski.
<< Mr Donski only reference is Felix Jacoby>>
Felix Jacoby (March 19, 1876 – November 10, 1959) was a German classicist and philologist. He is best known among classicists for his work Fragmente der griechischen Historiker, a collection of text fragments of ancient Greek historians.
Also significant is his long entry in the Realencyclopädie der Classischen Altertumswissenschaft on the Greek Historian Herodotus; written in 1913, this article established many of the questions that would come to dominate modern Herodotean scholarship.[1]
Jacoby was born in Magdeburg. Though he was expelled from the University of Kiel during the Gleichschaltung of Nazi Germany, Jacoby was one of a very small number of Jews who supported Adolf Hitler. He went so far as to make the startling comparison in 1933:
As a Jew I find myself in a difficult position. But as a historian I have long learned not to view historical events from a private perspective. I have voted for Adolf Hitler since 1927 and I am happy that in the year of the National Rising I am allowed to lecture on Augustus.
Because Augustus is the only figure in world history that may be compared to Adolf Hitler
He died in Berlin.[2]
. Dewald and Marincola, eds. (2006). The Cambridge Companion to Herodotus. Cambridge. pp. 1-2.
2. Safranski, Rüdiger. Martin Heidegger: Between Good and Evil. pp. 230
Retrieved from "[deleted link]"
17 Dec 2009 ... Click here to read the new issue of UMD Voice: http://umdiaspora.org/images/UMDVoiceWinter2009.pdf
Aries - not sure your original point was taken (or was well-aimed !)
If somebody like GMS posts something distinctly lurid and even apocalyptic (references to Sword of Damocles etc.), then others are quite entitled to take the posting at face value and respond appropriately.
If in doubt, take the plain sense of the words used. In this case GMS used words more appropriate to the Last Judgment or Dante's Inferno, but maybe his English isn't that good, so let us pardon him.
Aries mon ami - all I was doing was trying to paraphrase GMS's rather lurid words, not adding any interpretation of my own.
When GMS says:
<<But there we return again to Greece which hold the Sword of Damocles on the head of Skopje. I already predicted what happened for the december summit, so stay tuned on march to see what kind of damages the third VETO (officially the second) of Greece will create to Skopje... >>
...how else would YOU interpret it, other than as an imprecation [...]
K.Nous
<<<when you prophecy the doom of Macedonia thanks to Greece >>>
Wrong my dear fellow it is the idiotic most midly put statements of their top ranking officials
and all the subsequent tensiion
that we are after
A favor please don't play dumb
Read carefully my previous post"to whom it may concern"
Si jamais tu veu continuer ton petit dada avec Fyrom tu est libre majeur et vaccicne"
Merci.
Dear Peter - it is clearly a long time since you were in Poland. The instrumental case ("Polakiem") is always used with the verb 'to be' to indicate a temporary condition, including (by Polish usage) nationality: so "jestem Polakiem" = I am Polish, and "jestem Anglikiem" = I am English.
This can cause some difficulty in translation with plural nouns, often placed at the start of the sentence (Polish journalists seem to think this is good "style"). As in:
"Zatrudnianymi obcokrajowcymi robotkinami sa wykorzystani obecnie w Szczebreczynie miedzy chrzasczcami." (which combined both [...]
Read the full commentuses of the instrumental case, i.e. both with verb and with preposition.
A better idea of all this can be gained from one of the main Polish newspapers (Rceczpospolita):
To Koinos Nous,my dear fellow,I speak polish.When you say that person is Polak you identifie the individual.When you say Polakiem woukd be used as in"I was fishing with"Even though I have left Poland for over 55 years,I still can communicate very well.This is my third language I speak.I speak,Macedonian,Polish,Greek and English and limited Russian.Please, domt give me any lessons in Polish.Did you read the 130 million dollars Mitsotakis spent to haras the Macedonian people? its on this site,take a good look.It seams most of the comments are about Macedonia from the Greeks.I wonder why! For starters it is because it [...]
Read the full commentburnes Greeces behind for all the fabrications they themselves created.It also incudes the Bulgarians.Why are you both fighting over Macedonia that does not belong to you? Can you settle that between the two of you so we can at least fight one of you?.To me it looks like both of you must love macedonias history,but it is not yours.You people are so deep in a hole that you cannot reach its top to get out of it.Whe I was still in Northern Greece (Macedonia) we were not allowed to speak our own Macedonian language,are you not allowed to speak your language wherever you are? Our streets on Danforth are even in Greek,a whole identity of people in the Greek Macedonia are bot even allowed to baptise their children in Macedonian,figure that out." E mythiki Eleniki Demokratia ene mono mythos".That is why you people went after the Macedonian history that never belonged to you,and it will destroy Greece politicly and economicly."Do widzenia e wesolyh swiat"last word read "sviont".
GMS - when you prophecy the doom of Macedonia thanks to Greece :
<< Its geostrategic situation in the Balkans is quite artificial with a very composite population and the only way to consolidate its position as a state is determined by an hypothetic entrance in the EU and NATO family. NO EU and no NATO, the artificial "macedonian" identity is very fragile.
But there we return again to Greece which hold the Sword of Damocles on the head of Skopje. I already predicted what happened for the december summit, so stay tuned on [...]
Read the full commentmarch to see what kind of damages the third VETO (officially the second) of Greece will create to Skopje... >>
...this is about the most irresponsible thing I have heard said since George W Bush invaded I-raq !
What on earth does Greece gain by de-stablising a whole volatile region, all because of a name ? It sounds like one of Aesop's more dire and dreadful fables.
If Greece really wants to let the Albanians and the Turks in to "fill the vacuum" of a vanished Macedonia (which in itself is no real threat to Greece), then that is a Pyrrhic Victory worthy of classical times.
It all sounds as if the Americans are right to keep Camp Bondsteel going, if your thoughts are at all typical of a major strand in Greek politics (which I hope they are not, but which I fear they might be.)
By the way - changing topic slightly - Slovenia resents intensely being labelled as a "Balkan" country. It is an Alpine country, and very proud of it, and is 1000 km from the Balkans proper. Any Slovene will tell you that "Europe ends at Dobova"
( For those whose knowledge of Slovene geography may be less than mine, 'Dobova' is the main railway border crossing between Slovenia and Croatia, 20 km from Zagreb.)
The Australian Macedonian Advisory Council (AMAC) is appalled by the latest statements made from FYROM´s President Gjorge Ivanov. According to MINA news, President Ivanov controversially stated "We will not cave under any pressure to change our name or identity just to be a part of the European Union. We've lived this (hi)story many times before, not again. Whatever the outcome of the talks in Brussels, Macedonia (FYROM) will stay right here" threatening to remain outside the EU as the ´Republic of Macedonia´. Ivanov continues: "Europe unfortunately still has leaders who allow [...]
Read the full commentto be carried away by someone's petty interests and hidden agenda.. We see the absence of vision at the EU".
These statements have revealed FYROM´s ongoing disregard for reaching a compromise to the name dispute with Greece, that has delayed it entry into the EU and NATO. AMAC hopes FYROM will change its current hardline policy, and not continue to insult the European Union and its member states, but instead to tackle the real issue at hand.
GREECE PAID JOURNALISTS TO PROMOTE 'GREEKNESS' OF MACEDONIA
National.
During 1989 to 1993 from secret funds of the Greek Foreign Ministry headed by Andonis Samaras, Greek journalists received $130 million dollars (US) to promote the "greekness of Macedonia"!
Although these funds were originally intended for external promotion (read disinformation), they, according to the testimony of former Prime Minister Constantinos Mitsotakis, ended up in pockets of Greek journalists.
- All of the funds were in black plastic bags, like those black [...]
Read the full commenttrash bags you see, filled only with 5,000 bank notes. There were never checks, it was always cash. The money was mainly for propaganda over Macedonia's name, but instead of going abroad, this propaganda was directed towards the inside, our country - said Mitsotakis in front of a commission summoned to clarify the case.
The payment of huge lump sums coincided with the independence of Macedonia and the strengthening of internal propaganda and the so called "macedoniazation" in Greece.
This scandal, which was first actualized by Athens based Eleftherotypia was burried in 1994 though it re-emerged once again after Andonis Samaras was elected as leader of New Democracy, which suffered a defeat by PASOK in the fall elections.
Samaras had been dismissed in 1992 as a Foreign Minister by then-Prime Minister Mitsotakis, who, like Papandreou has now himself assumed the foreign ministry.
The investigation was completed without conclusions. These secret payments were investigated by Mitsotakis’ successor, the Greek Foreign Ministry, Government and current president Karolos Papoulias. The Greek Government issued no information and closed the investigation in the name of "higher national interests".
The dilemma whether the Greek Government bribed journalists as well as publishers across the country to publish material that would promote Athens’ agenda hangs in the air.
Andonis Samaras publicly acknowledged large amounts of money were paid to publishers, journalists, even local officials, adding all money were used for “national useful purposes”.
It is indicative that all documents were destroyed prior to Mitsotakis’ takeover of Greece’s FM from Samaras - on April 13, 1993. Samaras himself attested that the documents were destroyed on March 17 that year. The only thing left are the total amounts and recorded statements - the money were distributed by (Manolis Kalamidas close to Samaras and Dimitris Avramopoulos, a man of trust to Mitsotakis).
The scandal itself surfaced following the collapse of the Mitsotakis government in October 10, 1993. To make things more interesting, the Foreign Minister of the new government of PASOK - after Mitsotakis and Samaras - was none other than the current present President of Greece Karolos Papoulias!
Papoulias engaged a United States attorney, former judge, who practically discovered the secret funds. The investigation never revealed the names of journalists and news organizations that were at the receiving end of these payouts.
According to documents from the investigation on March 10, 1994 Mitsotakis before the Commission confirmed that there were secret funds from the MFA, adding funds also became available from banks and other large companies. Since taking office, Mitsotakis described the situation in the MFA as "bad" adding “presently we have only 40-48 million drachmas (220 thousand dollars), while large sums of money are directed to unknown persons without the appropriate paperwork”.
Mitsotakis explained the funds were distributed by the Minister, and controlled by three member commission appointed by the Minister. All documents, if any, were destroyed twice annually.
The former Greek prime minister asked Samaras to explain where the money went. Samaras never provided a concise answer, saying the money were spent on “Advertisement”.
GMS.
There is nothing simplistic when
and where Bondsteel is involved
Greece is a part of Southeastern
Europe along with Albania, Bulgaria,Fyrom,Serbia,Bosnia,
Croatia,Slovenia.
<<<there we return again to Greece which hold the Sword of Damocles on the head of Skopje. I already predicted what happened for the december summit, so stay tuned on march to see what kind of damages the third VETO (officially the second) of Greece will create to Skopje...>>
consider the system as a whole first.then make that grandiose statement of yours. [...]
Read the full comment/>
Btw have you heard of Davutoglu's "pax Ottomana" project Within Fyrom,Bosnia,Albania.
that makes things even more complex in geopolitical terms and nature
Cheers.
Dr Oz.
There is a french saying "Idees
preconcues ,il ne faut pas attribuer aux autres ses pensees "
as for your classical evasive technique when cornered quite amusing i.e
<< , if I give you references you will just try to refute them in your own twisted uncanny ways.
>>
come on my lad grow up a little,
afraid of criticism on your
sources sit back and enjoy the dogfight without being part of it,
AND MOST OF ALL LEARN!!!!!! [...]
"I am afraid that the only threat right now is the political section of the KLA residing in Fyrom.
for the time being as long as Camp Bondsteel eists "aux alentours" (in the vincinity) no major action
will take place so the only deastabilisation efforts if any taken will remain in the political realm".
>>>I am afraid this view is too simplistic and quite subjective. I would not be so categoric with this statement if I was you. Skopje is "officieusement" in deep troubles both politically, [...]
Read the full commenteconomically and ... historically. Its geostrategic situation in the Balkans is quite artificial with a very composite population and the only way to consolidate its position as a state is determined by an hypothetic entrance in the EU and NATO family. NO EU and no NATO, the artificial "macedonian" identity is very fragile.
But there we return again to Greece which hold the Sword of Damocles on the head of Skopje. I already predicted what happened for the december summit, so stay tuned on march to see what kind of damages the third VETO (officially the second) of Greece will create to Skopje...
Greek Macedonia SupremacyThu, Dec 17 2009 14:37 CET
My dear friend Aries , if I give you references you will just try to refute them in your own twisted uncanny ways. As for simple emotional arguments, that seems the only way for you and other Greeks seem to understand, and by the way it seems to irk that mixed Greek blood of yours!
Les personnes simples ont besoin de reponses simples!
Of that Bulgarian or Serbian Language you speak of, is that the turkic language of the orginal Bulgars and Serbs or the slavic one that seems to encompass millions of people and territory [...]
Read the full commentthat covers 1/6 of the world! So in essence that would make his idea the correct one.
To my new friend Le Cervoise, je pense que vous n'aimez la biere!!
As for Jeffrey, Jeffrey, Jeffrey my sad illogical Aussie friend, what can I say, it's seems you do not understand sarcasm and by your repetitious nature, only can spout out the same Greek line, but then your just an Aussie Greek pretending to be an English Aussie, isn't this fun mate!!
To GMS.
I am afraid that the only threat right now is the political section of the KLA residing in Fyrom.
for the time being as long as Camp Bondsteel eists "aux alentours" (in the vincinity) no major action
will take place so the only deastabilisation efforts if any taken will remain in the political realm.
Merci pour votre attention.
Greece’s Deputy Foreign Minister Dimitris Droutsas. yes big mouth is an albanian wannabe greek.
Dnevnik: Athens sharpens rhetoric towards Macedonia
Skopje. Athens sharpened the rhetoric over the name dispute with Macedonia, Macedonian Dnevnik “Macedonian identity is party of every single Greek citizen. We are born and die with this identity”, said Greece’s Deputy Foreign Minister Dimitris Droutsas. According to him, his party has presented its clear position to Greek citizens and it is not afraid to assume responsibility.
“We should defend the national red line in terms of the name for international [...]
Read the full commentuse”, Droutsas remarked.
Head of the EU mission in Macedonian, Erwan Fouere, on the other hand, declared that time does not work to Macedonia’s favor and thus a solution should be found to the name dispute.
“Over the next months, it is important to establish a national consensus among all political parties”, Fouere said.
To Dr. Yugislav in Oz if you think mate that just because our Aussie teachers taught us history the way it is and you think they were Greek well just shows how dumb some of your people are. Believe me when most Aussies talk about Yugislavs they know who you are so I can say that I speak for most of our Aussies. Right On! And by the way mate English is our mother language because most of us have British ancestry just like you guys all have a Yugislav ancestry. I reckon you guys here in Oz have decided [...]
Read the full commentto call yourselves somethin different to your Yugislavs names because of the negative Yugislav history and want the Greek name instead. Mate if you ever watch the cult movie 'wogboy" you'll see that all the ethnic people in Oz are represented the Greeks, Italians, and your Yugislav people Doc. So why are you trying to change your Yugislav name now after so many decades. Mate, You should maybe call yourselves New Yugislavs, First Yugislavs, or how about this one Native Yugislavs. I reckon the world is big enough for all of us mate so you should be able to come up with a name which doesn't steal other peoples history. The Yugislavs of Oz are not that many so what;s the big deal. If you want a new name go to Yugislavia or anywhere where they like to call you both Yugislavs and anything else you want. You know Dr. Yugislav if Alexander spread a Yugislav language in history you wouldn't have this problem with the real Macedonians today who in the history books say all spoke Greek thus showing they were a Greek tribe. Tough Luck Dr. Yugislav maybe in your next life the hero can speak Yugislav. Maybe you have someone like Lupcho the GReat, Vlade the blade or Zoran the Terrible they sound heroic what do you reckon mate. Going for a surf mate.
Come On Aussie, Come On, Come On.
Greek Macedonia SupremacyThu, Dec 17 2009 02:16 CET
I have nothing against "les jeux de mots", if they are not turned in the silly goal to ridiculize ("tourner en dérision" if you prefer in french) your interlocutor, which was the case many times in your posts and the ones of Koinos Nous. So I do not who is the most arrogant person between me and you both guys then... Anyway, let's not hijack this topic any longer.
The albanian minority is a concrete problem, because there is no Skopjan unity. Also the precedent case of Kosovo can be repeated with FYROM, even more because [...]
Read the full commentGreece does not let this fragile country in the EU and NATO. So the more Skopje is waiting to change their name, the more risk they encounter. Hope this reasoning is crystal clear. Thank you.
To GMS.
Telling you the truth my friend
nobody really missed your arrogant manners if you cannot cope with "les jeux de mots" it's not our fault.
If you want to discuss your fears on the destabilisation in the region due to Kossovo and the Ablanian minority of Fyrom then we can proceed on he discussion.
thank you for your attention.
Greek Macedonia SupremacyThu, Dec 17 2009 00:12 CET
I have signed off for one day and from what I noticed the debate by Koinos Nous and Aries is as always going nowhere. The last 10 posts I have read are not only out of subject, but totally pointless, Messieurs, with ridiculous comments in french, greek & other languages unknown by the other users, so they cannot understand they are insulted in a undirect/ashamed manner.
If I am not there to elevate this debate, I am afraid this blog will loose its value and seriousness, just like the ridiculous positions of the Skopjans about the [...]
Read the full commentname dispute that you, Koinos Nous and Aries, are represented in a disguised(but unmasked) form.
I would like to speak for once about the critical political instability of Skopje which is about to grow more and more til march and which reminds me old dangerous events of this decade in this region...
I was always taught that "absolument" was too upper-class (bon chic-bon genre ou BCBG) en France, so we all used "vachement" instead, especially with "chouette", hence the English satire of "cowly owl" (vachement chuette).
Doubtless GMS - from his enormous personal repertoire of "Les Dictons" will prove us - and the rest of France - wrong !
K.Nous.
Que faire mon ami.
ou voi-tu le "vachement" le mot
adequat est "absolument".
i will translate what i said
in Greek.
"that makes you well over 65 so
enjoy a cup of nice Chamomele tea
and drop the Dandramanis dictum and please do come up with something new you are being too
much repetative".
to Peter - if you are referring to a Polish individual in European English, he is a "Pole", not a "Polak". To do otherwise is thought very impolite, by Poles and other Europeans alike.
"He" is only called a "Polak" in the Polish language, and then only in the "nominative" case. The most common case used is in fact the "instrumental", so to say 'he is a Pole' you would say "On jest Polakiem". The plural is "Polacy", and never "Polaks".
For the feminine gender, the nominative is "Polka", and the instrumental [...]
Read the full comment"Polke", with a nasal accent under the 'e' that my keyboard won't do. The plural is "Polkie", though "Polacy" is in fact often used as well.
The instrumental plural for both genders (always used) is "Polakami"
Aries, mon ami, what are you saying ? Un instant de reflexion, peut-etre ? Lui, peut-etre il est vachement idiot, mais faut pas le dire aussi directement.
Also, for some of us, it's easier to read Greek in the Greek alphabet than it is in transliteration into Latin script, as also in Cyrillic too.
Peter
Demosthenes was a Athenian statesman and one of the most hailed orators of Antiquity rivaled by Cicero of Rome only.
Demosthenes was an hoplite at thwe Battle of Chaeronia.
hope that is helpfull futher
you can "read" at Wikipaedia
under Demosthenes
Peter
Were in the devil did you see Dr oz
to my last post.
you say
<<Yes,I am in the diaspora since I was 11 year old,but never forget who I am.I have traveled to the Republic of Macedonia and in Northern Greece to my birth place.Let me tell you a very sad thing;my birth place used to have 600 citizens in 1948,today there are 5.The houses are crumbling down,the landscape has changed,but my hart is still there.I never new the Greek language,we spoke Macedonian>>
So according to you "eisai [...]
Read the full commentpano apo 65 xronwn agapite mou giati den pineis to xamomilaki kai afhse ta alla dandramanides kai allous telos pantwn. allaxe tropario olo
ta idia kai ta idia mas les .
TO macedonia always greece. I am proud Macedonian and speak the slavic language. It is too bad,you cannot understand the difference betwwen identity and language.Please go get some education.I see you speak English,are an Enlishman,or that I speak Polish,does that make me a Polak,does the Americans english speaking are they English? What is there you dont understand?Are the Russians slaves?They speak the slavic language!Why dont you get lost,or write something real subject,say like the battle of Chaeronia between the Macedonians and the Hellens in 338 BC.What Demosthenes write for the fallen Hellens.I wonder why he ignored the fallen Macedonians. [...]
Dr.Oz,your answer to Aries is perfect.The problem falls in education that is;if you educate yourselve in Greece,there can never be the same as in any other place on this planet.Greece still believes in the myth that they are the only people on this planet. Sasha,for the first time we agree on something.As I have said before,I respect you for who you are,but politicly and historicly we differ.Yes,I am in the diaspora since I was 11 year old,but never forget who I am.I have traveled to the Republic of Macedonia and in Northern Greece to my birth place.Let me tell you [...]
Read the full commenta very sad thing;my birth place used to have 600 citizens in 1948,today there are 5.The houses are crumbling down,the landscape has changed,but my hart is still there.I never new the Greek language,we spoke Macedonian.As far as the Bulgarian language goes,here one Greek high ranking representative at the League of Nations in 1925 said"The Macedonian language is neither Serbian nor Bulgarian,it is a different language that is on its own"
Dr.Oz,your answer to Aries is perfect.The problem falls in education that is;if you educate yourselve in Greece,there can never be the same as in any other place on this planet.Greece still believes in the myth that they are the only people on this planet. Sasha,for the first time we agree on something.As I have said before,I respect you for who you are,but politicly and historicly we differ.Yes,I am in the diaspora since I was 11 year old,but never forget who I am.I have traveled to the Republic of Macedonia and in Northern Greece to my birth place.Let me tell you [...]
Read the full commenta very sad thing;my birth place used to have 600 citizens in 1948,today there are 5.The houses are crumbling down,the landscape has changed,but my hart is still there.I never new the Greek language,we spoke Macedonian.As far as the Bulgarian language goes,here one Greek high ranking representative at the League of Nations in 1925 said"The Macedonian language is neither Serbian nor Bulgarian,it is a different language that is on its own"
too peter!you are slavs for sure!!!like russian,serbian,bulgarian,like all slavs.if you feal more bulgarian,or serbian or i dont now???this is not or problem!!!!you are not makedonian my friend!!!for sure!!!!you live <<back>>your realy nation!why????stop believe the tito mythos!!it wass for politic ways and not because you are <<makedonian>>visit vergina too see!!!!!
too peter!you are slavs for sure!!!like russian,serbian,bulgarian,like all slavs.if you feal more bulgarian,or serbian or i dont now???this is not or problem!!!!you are not makedonian my friend!!!for sure!!!!you live <<back>>your realy nation!why????stop believe the tito mythos!!it wass for politic ways and not because you are <<makedonian>>visit vergina too see!!!!!
Dr Oz.
FOR YOUR REFERENCE
<<<The Slavic language he [Delchev] spoke and the one spoken here now is closer to Bulgarian than to Serbian. But on account of Tito's break with Stalin, the Yugoslav government, encouraged by the Serbs, promoted a separate ethnic and linguistc identity for Macedonian, in order to sever any emotional link between the local population and the one next door in Bulgaria >>>
[Robert D. Kaplan, Balkan Ghosts, p.60]
Dr Oz.
Give us your <<references>> of your simplistic arguments and
pure revisionistic views
because the exposition you give here is an exposition of a brainwashed mind nothing more nothing less.
My man, Jeffrey of Oz, your childish and simplistic approach to the Macedonian name question beckons a response.
I will try to answer you as simply as I can.
You speak English in Oz, why are you not English then?
As you state there are Greeks, Italians,Bulgarians, etc, in Oz, so why are you not English then?
As for your history lessons presumably you had a Greek teacher?
You note that since WWII that somebody told you (probably another Greek) that Yugoslavs were known as such, well I guess your [...]
Read the full commentGreek friend forgot to tell you that Yugoslavia broke up in the 1990's, and I assume you don't read do get any facts right!
As for your statement of Greeks calling themselves Macedonians for centuries, Macedonia was known as Northern Greece before the 1980's and only the small minority of Greeks living in Macedonia called themselves that, prior to the great exchange!
So my Aussie friend, do not try and talk for all Aussies and stop drinking that fine Australian beer that seems to be clouding your mind!
Well, GMS, don't try to get out of it so easily. You yourself posted to me only a few days ago:
<<and I seriously doubt your feet touched the territory of Slovenia... >>
so you can hardly complain if I authoritatively contradict you !
I regard most of the rest of your statements as demonstrating the same lack of veracity on your part.
As regards the future of the Greece/Macedonia issue, bear in mind two things:
(a) economic issues always [...]
Read the full commentprevail in the end (Karl Marx). Nobody should gain any joy or pleasure from the current Greek economic crisis, as I have posted elsewhere, but it may dictate events in 2010 more than you think.
(b) as any MFA official knows, pure "Murphy's Law" (or "Sod's Law") - "whatever can go wrong, will go wrong, and when you least expect it" - applies to international relations. In other words, always expect the entirely unpredictable !
I can't believe I'm going to agree with my diaspora friend Peter for once.
Yes you are absolutley right that we will never lose our Macedonian identity but you must also be careful of just how objective and credible your sources are.
Greece will never be able to change our identity as it is a part of the earth we walk on. But similarly Peter we should be careful in what an identity means to each and everyone of us. For example just as you claim the Greeks are fabricating history there are many in our [...]
Read the full commentquarters who are doing the exact same e.g. antiquisation politics. In other words we can't cry foul about the others if there are those among us who are doing the very exact same. The Greeks can claim whatever they like but they can never claim our identity. Our identity is now part of the global fabric and as such has created a momentum of its own so don't fret with frail politics Peter and point your nose to the future (not the past). Whether you like it or not there will always be different views of our identity. But it is certain that as a believer in Delchev and his doctrines of our Slavic pride you my friend will always have the view of antiquisationism and there is where we part ways although as Macedonians our identity remains in tact, one a proud Macedonian of Slavic heritage the other (yourself) proud of some romantic heritage linked to Al. Veliki (possilbly a Greek tribe).
I just came across an article that says "Greece paid 130 million to promote the "greekness of Macedonians"It is no surprise,Mitsotakis revealed that they paid publishers and journalists to promote the extinction of the Macedonian identity.It is so absurd when the former PM Mitsotakis saying they were paying in black trash bags in bank notes(cash) so there cannot be traced.Is this State a member of EU and NATO can resort to this absurd way to extinguish a newly indeoendent State? What is with EU harboring a member State like Greece?why these same EU are demanding good neighborly relations from the [...]
Read the full commentRepublic of Macedonia and for that matter from all aspiring States who want to join this institution? Is Mr.Barroso a realist or just propping up his friends like Greece? How can the EU ask Macedonia to relinguish its identity that exists for centuries.Even the Greek intelectuals are againts Greece itself.Here is professor Skoularikis statement on the name issue "The Greek arguments are not convincing because it is a fundamental right of all people to freely choose their name. We insist that our neighbor has no right to use the name Macedonia,ignoring the fact that during the 19th and 20th century there was a wider region called Macedonia".EU and you anti-Macedonians take note,Macedonia will and cannot change its identity.It identifies who we are and come from.We are Macedonians who have no connection to the Greeks or the ancient Hellens who have disapeared long time ago.Greece, stop the absurd fabrication of history!
Greek Macedonia SupremacyTue, Dec 15 2009 23:54 CET
I am sorry, Messieurs Koinos Nous and Aries (as far I know I communicated with K.N and not with you, karagiozi), but your aggressive comments about my person are not only uninteresting, but also out of subject. The one to be insulted here by two men at the same time is ME. I would ask you both to keep your calm if you are unable to accept the reality of the facts which is... (let's return on topic)
>The future of Skopje is in jeopardy and to be more precised, in the hands of Greece. In 6 months [...]
Read the full commentthere will be a second deadline for Skopje to find a compromise about the name with Greece. If Skopje refuses to do it, then it will loose its credibility towards the EU members, showing any good will in resolving bilateral issues. So there will be no escape.
I would appreciate we talk about this subject and not about silly-childish translations to prove if X or Y has ever been in Slovenia...
Thank you. Trying to be as diplomatic as possible as always.
Oops, sorry - I forgot that you had (you say) been there many times and that I had not. A thousand pardons......meanwhile, please still try to link the name of the castle with the Slovenian word for "snow"......
Gms.
There is an old which goes something like that
"It is often better to be sought
a fool ,than open one's mouth
an remove all doubts"
in french it goes
dans le doute abstiens toi.
Slovenia is not the one balkanic country to back Greece for the name dispute. Serbia did it too and Bulgaria, even unofficially, is upset by Skopje. I am afraid therefore the multi-gravitational problems of FYROM are showing that good relationships with their neighbours is far from being a priority for them...
So no, Skopje will not enter EU and maybe never if Albanians...
GMS - once again you exemplify the old saying that "Ignorance Is Bliss". Slovenia is a pleasant and civilised country - and if you'd been to the nationwide annual Gornja Radgona agricultural fair, as I have, you would know this.
Two Slovene questions for you (I'll put them in English as this is an English-language site):
(a) what is commemorated in the town of Ptuj ? (Clue: could be more than one item)
(b) when is the national dormouse-hunting season, and where is the National Dormouse Museum ? [...]
Come on Gazza its not that bad being a Yugislav mate. All you need is a bit of good ol' Aussie education and you'll see that there are thousands of Yugislavs in Oz. If you ever watch the cult movie classic WogBoy you'll see that your countrymen Gazza are part of the ethnic community together with Greeks, Italians, etc. Whats wrong anyway with being a Yugislav especially because most Aussies can't tell the difference mate. Let me put it a another way mate, if you are not Yugislavs why do you continue to have that name in your FYROM. I [...]
Read the full commentmean anyone who wouldn't call themselves a Yugislav would have left that out but you dudes leave it in. You know something Gazza your bloody well lucky that you live in our civilised Oz otherwise you Yugislavs would be having to find another rich land to go to maybe USA. Take care buddy.
To our friend Jeffery. You cannot even spell the term "Yugoslav" correctly. That despatches your view or opinion to oblivion. There is no longer a country called or recognised globally as "Yugoslavia", including by Greece. Ask your (Athenian) government to consult its fellow EU member countries if necessary. Enjoy your garlic-infused souvlaki buddy
Whats up Nik can't handle your Yugislav background mate. Greeks are Greeks and Yugislavs are Yugislavs. So tell me smart man why did you wait so many years to decide to call yourself macedonian in Oz. I was told that since WWII all your people here have called themselves Yugislavs. The problem mate is you are a racist mob here in Oz the poor Greeks who have had their Macedonian identity for yonks are now your little targets. You know what mate if you had half a brain you'd know that Yugislavs could never have a Greek name because I [...]
Read the full commentwas told here by your own countrymen that many of you Yugislavs claim a Bulgarian language and have a Bulgarian history. So why is it all so confusing. For most of us Aussies your still just the typical Yugislavs around town just like in the Wogboy movie, one of the best movies out about the Yugislavs, Greeks and Italians. In that movie they called the guy Tony the Yugislav so whats so different about you Nik you are for sure a Yugislav who just wants to be part of the Greek tribe the Macedonians. I mean I'm no historian but I do remember at school that we were told that Alexander the Great was king of the Macedonians a Greek tribe and together with other Greeks conquered India. I guess it must be envy that your Yugislav people who don't speak Greek, look Greek or even had any knowledge of civilisation would today want to own a Greek name. Don't worry mate there are heaps of Yugislavs around and not all of yous are united so good luck. As I read here half of your countrymen aren't sure who they are. My guess is you are Yugislavs made from Bulgarian origins with a Greek, Serbian, Albanian and Turkish overlay, thats the best I can do.
Come on Aussie, come on, come on.
Greek Macedonia SupremacyMon, Dec 14 2009 23:46 CET
To Koinos Nous: "Its a good paper and a good site, but it does help to know Slovene, which luckily I do".
>>>Is it just me or is it another of your "bad tasty" april fools? This newspaper is one of the best of the Balkans and I seriously doubt your feet touched the territory of Slovenia... When you are unable to contradict the reality of the facts, your arguments definitely lack of imagination.
Sorry to inform you once again that Slovenia backed Greece for the name dispute and the words do [...]
Aries - you're right in your posting some way below about the Catholic Church in Prague using the Old Slavonic rite. The Church still exists - in the Stare Mesto between the Powder Tower and the Old Town Square. I've forgotten the dedication, but the words in Czech are "Staro Slovenski Chram", with the double Cross of Orthodoxy.
GMS - sorry, your earlier story about Slovenia supporting Greece appears to be quite unfounded. I have gone through all the current pages and online archives in the main Slovenia (www.vecer.si/) newspaper, and there is no trace
of any mention.
Its a good paper and a good site, but it does help to know Slovene, which luckily I do.
Greek Macedonia SupremacyMon, Dec 14 2009 16:47 CET
And the US put the pressure on the shoulders of Skopje:
"Washington recommends the name “Republic of North Macedonia” to be carried as resolution of the name dispute between Athens and Skopje, Greek Elftherotypia newspaper writes. The U.S., which has said several times it is about time Athens and Skopje, to close the name issue, are now pressing the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia (FYROM) to demonstrate good neighbor relations with Greece by adopting the name “Republic of North Macedonia” as the specifying of the comprehensiveness of the usage to be left for the future".
Periclis.
<<pacet steal you born pacet steal you die!!>>>
<<!!!!sirius historic IN fyrom have fun with this <<makedonian>>nation!!!and because fyrom is one fasistic nation!!all this people is <<back>>we look the future >>>
what in the hell do you mean
my friend.
*******Mon, Dec 14 2009 14:57 CET
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nicola
Perhaps this link will persuade you on the proportion of Latins in Italy at that time. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magna_Graecia
i am very glad to help you with your education
What brillant mind did give you the infos on 2013 and the Bucarest treaty really i would like some
serious references about it.
Wrong again albanians are only 22% to 25% the good news there are macedonian albanians called tosk or toski the lesser are called ghegs, now for the bad news there is more albanians in greece than in present macedonia.
Albanians make up around one quarter of the population in Macedonia, and according to opinion polls, many would "rather trade the name of the country in return for a speedy EU and NATO accession than the Macedonian majority."
Jeffery, or maybe Jefferypoulos a pretend aussie who's really greekI see it right through your biased comments, now read some facts. (That Greece didn't name their northern region 'Macedonia' until the 1980s.) Greece is most afraid of having to face the Fact, (Greece has only occupied part of Macedonia since 1913.) Greece agenda will continue until there is no more Macedonians and Republic of Macedonia. But The Burcarest Treaty Ends In 2013, And Think Greece Seeing Red. and Billions in Compensations.
Listen up people can someone tell me why the Yugislavs in Oz want to be known as macedonians. To us mate Macedonians have always been Greek so how do you get these triangle headed. dark hair Yugislavs in Oz to become a Greek tribe. Its go me buggered. This Dr. Oz dude is certainly no Aussie by the sound of his heavy accent LOL, he sounds pretty Yugislav to me. Maybe The Yugislavs have a need to call themselves somethin different to get more global handouts. As far as Oz goes Yugislavs have always been known like that forever so [...]
Read the full commenthow come there is this sudden change. Why did you call yourself Yugislavs forever and now you want to call yourself a Greek name. I dunno what this is all about except that there are heaps of Yugislavs in Oz and heaps of Greeks but it seems to be that it is the Greeks who have been calling themselves Macedonians forever while the Yugislavs started about 10-15 years ago. Strange or what.
Come on Aussie come on, come on.
Greek Macedonia SupremacyMon, Dec 14 2009 00:05 CET
I am sorry to make you angry, GMS and Aries, but I just copies articles which describe the reality of the situation and comments coming from Skopjan officials. The words do not come from my mouth, so I do not know what is wrong with that.
If you have difficulties to accept the real transcript facts, then I am afraid the problem is internal, that means it comes from you both.
I entirely agree with Aries - GMS, stop "being Balkan". Civil unrest in Macedonia is the last thing that the region needs, whatever the 'rights and wrongs' over the name issue.
"Albanians make up around one quarter of the population in Macedonia, and according to opinion polls, many would "rather trade the name of the country in return for a speedy EU and NATO accession than the Macedonian majority."
Greek Macedonia SupremacySun, Dec 13 2009 22:44 CET
Here is an interesting article I found on the examiner.com newspaper which describes the consequence of the new unofficial Greek Veto. Tensions are dangerously growing with the Albanians and I am afraid the situation of Skopje will be totally out of control within the next weeks...
"Macedonia's ethnic-Albanian opposition calls for government to resign:
Macedonia's ethnic-Albanian opposition party, the Democratic Party of Albanians (DPA), has called on the ruling VMRO-DPNE government to step down for not being able to provide its people with a Euro-Atlantic future. Menduh Thaci, the leader of the [...]
Read the full commentDPA, stated that "'both [Prime Minister] Gruevski and VMRO-DPMNE want to resume their historical mission dating back 100 years ago i.e. to annex Macedonia to Bulgaria'" ([deleted link]/). He also urged the ethnic-Albanian junior government partner, the Democratic Union for Integration (DUI) to quit the government. However, DUI leader Xhevat Ademi said in a statement that "'the negotiations are not closed and all political factors will use the next six months as a chance to solve name issue'" ([deleted link]/).
Aries - nonsense, Mythos is one of Greece's finest beers (I can recall its restorative powers after a very long ans dry drive on Kephalonia's intimidating mountain roads very well !)
It is only beaten within Greece by imported Warsteiner from Germany, though in Bulgaria Kamienitsa is virtually as good.
Let's have a healthy topic of conversation for once ! Pivo will do (only don't they call it 'bira' in Bulgarian ?)
macedonia always greece
My friend i have the impression that you are stuck . Just like an old vinyl disk on a old pick up
being repitative is a bit boring
for others.
Koinos Nous (Campaign for Real Ale)Sun, Dec 13 2009 19:14 CET
This happens all the time with the EU nothing to worry about... the EU economy is a priority that needs to be sorted out first before talks for further EU enlargement... if you look at other countries such as Bulgaria and Greece it took 10 years for these two to join the EU... so try to not make this an issue for Macedonia and the rest of the Balkan countries. Intelligent people can see that the monster that is the European Union will take all the European countries under its wing even if these countries do not want to join [...]
Read the full commentthey will be forced economically to do so... the EU is the new USSR.
*******Sun, Dec 13 2009 17:12 CET
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My dear friend Aries, it's amazing how you always try and defend the Greek position but end up proving the Macedonian side.
The link you gave aptly shows that the Greeks were colonizers, where they would send their excessive populations to foreign lands and try for a land grab. Such was the case for Macedonia, because of your colony's there and small minority population in Macedonia throughout the years you somehow equate that with the right of calling Macedonia a Greek state.
Well my friend you are wrong and Macedonians will be known as Macedonians for [...]
Read the full commenttime immortal.
As for your friend Jeffrey of Oz, who put his foot in his mouth,when he said, "the yugoslavs are dark haired, pale and no blue eyes", should take a look at the modern Greeks who uncannily have the same resemblance!! So keep drinking your fine Aussie beer, but do get some knowledge before writing something so childish.
*******Sun, Dec 13 2009 16:25 CET
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Greek Macedonia SupremacySun, Dec 13 2009 14:51 CET
Skopje. Slovenia, too, considers compromise with Greece on the name issue and starting EU accession talks as existentialistic issue, said Slovenian Prime Minister Borut Pahor on Friday, quoted by Macedonian Dnevnik newspaper. Pahor confirmed that Slovenia has showed at the meeting of EU foreign ministers on December 7 understanding towards Greek’s position negotiations with Macedonia cannot be started until the name dispute is solved.
According to diplomats in the European Union this position (of Slovenia) is very logical in the view of the fact it relies on the solidarity of the member states and is blocking for a year negotiations with Croatia. However, there is no doubt, Ljubljana has contributed to strengthening the method bilateral disputes to be used for blocking integration of EU candidate member states, the newspaper reads.
On December 7 and 8, during the sitting of the EU foreign ministers, Greece was supported by Cyprus, Malta, Spain and France and “understanding of Greece’s position” was shown by many countries, including Slovenia, Bulgaria, Romania, Luxembourg, Belgium, Portuguese, Germany and the Netherlands, the edition writes".
to Moderator - aren't you being just a bit over-zealous ? The links I gave to your fellow-newspapers Vecer (Slovenia) and Dnevnik (Macedonia) were hardly commercial, and were very relevant to the subject at hand.
I reckon all you wannabe Macedonians over their in Yugoslavia should look at your selves in the mirror mate and realise that I'm no historian but Alexander the Great was supposed to be blond and blue eyed pretty much like us Aussies down at the beach but every Yugislav here in Australia is dark haired, pale, and no blue eyes. You oughta stop stealing other peoples identity and keep your Yugislav one after all you were so happy with that identity untill you all had your stupid war in the 90s. There are heaps of Yugislavs in Oz and I [...]
Read the full commentreckon the majority are not blond like the ancient Macedonians which means you are not part of that race. Maybe your Yugislav genes are a mixture of all the people in your area like Bulgarians, turks, Albanians, serbs who knows but if you ask most of the Aussies they reckon your to Yugislav looking to have any blond and blue eyed features. But keep trying you might convince some other people in the world. In Oz the land of the fair go we know who are the real macedonians and thats why we will never allow Yugislavs to hijack other peoples names. Even the governments speaker said it right in your Yugislav governments face in your country that there is no way in this lifetime or the next of having Yugislavs trying to take other peoples history. good luck though I'm sure there are heaps of gullible countries out there who obviously have no yugislavs living there to have some scope.
Yugislavs are Yugislavs and thats that guys.
So keep dreaming Sasha and all your Yugislavis there is no hope. We have the best music in the world here in Oz and I was talkin to a mate to see what the Yugislavs are famous for and we couldn't find one thing. So good luck in Yugislavia and when I go to preston tonight I'm picking up my Yugislav babe Neka who reckons my blond hair and blue eyes are really beaut. maybe I qualify a little better that you guys what to you reckon.
Cheers from down under.
*******Sun, Dec 13 2009 03:36 CET
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*******Sun, Dec 13 2009 03:09 CET
This comment has been removed by the moderator because it contained foul, abusive or discriminating language
Peter.
At last you have named a source
Assiros (Άσσηρος) to which to which Karakassidou refers
in her Anthropolgical quest is a municipality in the Thessaloniki Prefecture, Greece. Population 3,861 (2001).
The Tomba archaeological site of Assiros , a 4000 yr old settlement mound, is located within the territory of modern Assiros excavated between 1975 and 1989 at this site has made a major contribution to understanding the nature of settlement, society, economy and material culture in prehistoric Macedonia. In addition a combination of radiocarbon and dendrochronological research on building [...]
Read the full commenttimbers recovered from the site has provided one of the few accurate dates for the transition from Bronze to Iron Age in the Aegean area c. 1070 BC.
The Burden of the Balkans Anastasia Karakasidou Wellesley College
(Very nice diction excellent I must admit in political extortion
and Marxian theology
At the outbreak of the First Balkan War in 1912, a young political correspondent left Vienna on the 25th of April, traveling by train to Belgrade. Although he had visited the Balkans before, he was still impressed with the natural beauty of the landscape, and still intrigued with what he called this "multicultural, motley, culturally and politically confused East." Aboard the train, he observed, the first and second class carriages were Anastasia N. Karakasidou - The Burden of the Balkans - Anthropological Quarterly occupied by middle-class passengers, clean-shaven and rather homogenous in appearance. Third class carriages, by contrast, were filled with a mix of peoples communicating in an "incredible language made up of Bulgarian, German, Serbian, and French words." Throughout his writings on the Balkan War, this journalist -- and activist -- consistently referred to the Balkans as 'the East." This imagery seems to have been provoked by the spectacle of violence, and a pervasive injurious sense of lack expressed among the populace, set in a context of unresolved conflict. The correspondent repeatedly comments on the lack of industry in the countries he visits. His commentaries on the backwardness of the peasantry are reminiscent of Marx's now infamous analogy to a sack of potatoes. The autocratic character of the Balkan monarchies... "
VESTIGES OF COMMUNIST THOUGHT ON EXPLOITATION .
while intermarriage is a key element in Karakasidou's argument, none of the seven genealogiesof Greek patrilines in the appendix identify
spouses by ethnicity or locality, and only "one contains their names". As a result, the township of Assiros
does not emerge as a flesh and blood community,and Karakasidou offers little sense of having
been there. I found this disappointing and puzzling.
Second, the core of the analysis rests upon a single
and simple thesis: that Greek speakers were able to dominate local affairs through intermarriage, patronage,
wealth, and commercial power. Their
domination was buttressed through local connections
with the Greek Orthodox Church, the school
system, political parties, and various national
movements. The problem with this thesis is that that it is not been demonstrated.
An example lies in the case of local Greek
notables (tsorbadjidhes).
HOPE THAT THE ABOVE ARE HELPFULL
ps.
please leave Sasha in peace he is a young person he has his own beliefs.
Sasha,you have no voice in the Macedonian decisions.Speak about Bulgarias deniel of the existance of Macedonian minority in Bulgaria.Just remember 1913 what happened.What the Prime Minister Gruevski and the President of Macedonia have said I applaud them for standing up to EU and Greece. Republic of Macedonia will never change its identity or language,a language that is connected to the ancient Macedonians.Greeces absurd claims of Macedonia being Greek is a falshood,fabrication of history.If Greece is so adamant on the Macedonian people being Greek,why are they denying the rights of the indigenouse Macedonian people?Why is Bulgaria doing the same with its [...]
Read the full commentMacedonian people in Bulgaria?Is this a coincidance? Miss.Karakasidous book"Wheat,Hills of Blood:Passages to Nationhood on Greek Macedonia 1870-1990(Universiyu of Chicago Press,1997)Karakasidou pursued an inquiry into the ethnological origin of certain rural inhabitants in Greek Macedonia and challenged the myth of the Greek national homogeneity of the region."Miss.Karakasidou also made a statement that shows Macedonia was not Greek or Bulgarian but existed centuries before Greece did.With or without EU Macedonia has the will to survive as it did for centuries before.Greece is acting like a child that just dropped the bottle of milk from its mouth.Greece knows wevy well,Macedonia does not belong to Greece or Bulgaria.Why Turkey,Serbia and Albania are not againts Macedonias name?They are our neighbours as well,but the countries who occupy parts of Macedonia do.Is this such a mystery to be able to recognise the reasons behind it?It is obvious,they dont want to loose the occupied lands.
nicola
Perhaps this link will persuade you on the proportion of Latins in Italy at that time. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magna_Graecia
i am very glad to help you with your education,for obessions are usely the result of ignorance
and lead very bads manifestations of psychological instability.
*******Sat, Dec 12 2009 15:14 CET
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*******Sat, Dec 12 2009 15:10 CET
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For "1 and other Greeks let go of your past because greatness comes from the acts you do today, not from history! This show you are putting on only proves that you are not the Greeks of yesteryear, but a mixed race trying to prove one's own identity!
My young friend Sasha, I see that your youth and biased Bulgarin roots are interfering with your rational thoughts
Your quite reasonable comments on other posts have become irrelevant by your insults and demeaning attacks, such as the Greeks would do, showing that the arguments you put forward are of questionable value!
The pointing out of this grand "Tito" conspiracy, suggests that you are the one duped by the Greek propaganda and has been taken in with them.
As for your work ethic, again your youth speaks volumes. I feel that you rely on [...]
Read the full commentthe state to give you a job and handout. My young friend the world of capitalism is not like that. One must get off one's intellectual ass and look for or create a job!!
By the way, there is nothing wrong with a delightful glass of rakije, maybe you should have one to put a few hairs on your chest!
GMS - thanks for the article, but I can possibly ask for an English translation ?
You are quite properly "pointilleux" about the use of French with all the right accents, so I feel entitled to ask for the same equivalence in English.
Greek Macedonia SupremacySat, Dec 12 2009 12:38 CET
To the poor Koinos Nous who is saying everytime Greece has no support by EU members about the name dispute, here is an interesting article:
"Slovenia turns its back on Macedonia as well"
Skopje. Slovenia, too, considers compromise with Greece on the name issue and starting EU accession talks as existentialistic issue, said Slovenian Prime Minister Borut Pahor on Friday, quoted by Macedonian Dnevnik newspaper. Pahor confirmed that Slovenia has showed at the meeting of EU foreign ministers on December 7 understanding towards Greek’s position negotiations with Macedonia cannot be started until [...]
Read the full commentthe name dispute is solved.
According to diplomats in the European Union this position (of Slovenia) is very logical in the view of the fact it relies on the solidarity of the member states and is blocking for a year negotiations with Croatia. However, there is no doubt, Ljubljana has contributed to strengthening the method bilateral disputes to be used for blocking integration of EU candidate member states, the newspaper reads.
On December 7 and 8, during the sitting of the EU foreign ministers, Greece was supported by Cyprus, Malta, Spain and France and “understanding of Greece’s position” was shown by many countries, including Slovenia, Bulgaria, Romania, Luxembourg, Belgium, Portuguese, Germany and the Netherlands, the edition writes".
Best Regards,
GMS
*******Sat, Dec 12 2009 06:39 CET
This comment has been removed by the moderator because it contained foul, abusive or discriminating language
357 world famouse historians protest against fyroms propaganda and falsification of history:
"The answers are clear: Alexander the Great was Greek, not Slavic, and Slavs and their language were nowhere near Alexander or his homeland until 1000 years later. This brings us back to the geographic area known in antiquity as Paionia. Why would the people who live there now call themselves Macedonians and their land Macedonia? Why would they abduct a completely Greek figure and make him their national hero?"
"the government in Skopje to understand that it cannot build a [...]
Read the full commentnational identity at the expense of historic truth. Our common international society cannot survive when history is ignored, much less when history is fabricated."
To Aries thanks for the link, colony i question that because they moved into that region 800bc,and it was latin land thats why you were called theifs, thats how german historians fabricated an identity while he was employed by prince otto of baveria who became your first king. greci means theif and magna grecia is big theif.
Macedonian-American: I was going to say how much I agreed with your two most recent postings, before I saw your kind comments further below.
This whole issue does tend to become a "dialogue of the deaf", especially as some people seem to think that they have to shout all the time, especially in CAPITAL LETTERS. (No, Periclis, why should I possibly be thinking of you ?)
I'll be in contact bilaterally - thanks for the email address.
I'd also like to mention that I am an American that hold Europe and the EU in high esteem. It saddens me that some of the Greeks I see commenting on the internet seem to rejoice in having another chance to veto Macedonia. I hope it is the older, more nationalistic and conservative, that hold hard-line positions on both sides. Like me, I'm sure the Macedonian youth only want to have the opportunity that comes with being part of the EU, both personally and for their country. Hopefully, even the younger Greeks are just as puzzled that some people are [...]
Read the full commentso threatened by a region of their country sharing a name with a neighboring country. Republic of Northern Macedonia for all international dealings makes it clear that there are no territorial demands. Can't we just move forward?
Oops, I cute myself off by accident. I meant to say:
I have my Google news feed set to send me all the news regarding Macedonia and the EU and sadly, there is very little reported by anyone anywhere. No one really cares about Macedonia. The truth is, as much as the Greeks rant and rave, Macedonia is a small and weak country that poses no threat to anyone. Unfortunately, Greek's obstinacy could play a part in destabilizing the country and creating ethnic conflict, which would be terrible for the entire Balkan region. This is harmful [...]
Read the full commentfor Europe as a whole and one would think that Greece EU would happily accept a compromise (such as Northern Macedonia for international use) for the sake of the greater good and harmony, over what is a pretty minor issue. I'm surprised that the EU is not putting more pressure on Greece in this matter. But again, no one cares about a tiny, weak country.
I agree that much of the press I find seems questionable and far from unbiased. However, I assure you, there is nothing at all about Macedonia in the American news services like the Associated Press and Reuters. Neither is there any news from reputable European press, such as the BBC. I have my Google news feed set to send me all the news regarding Macedonia and the EU and sadly.
I'm happy to see any news at all. (Perhaps I should be setting my feed to search for French or German [...]
Read the full commentlanguage news?)Sadly, it's difficult to get a sense of things from the perspective of the EU, and all the political and bureaucratic machinations therein, which is all that matters to me.
No macedonian politician has the mandate or rights to change the historical name of macedonia. And so the name issue its artificial greece has no rights to the name.
2013 end of the burcarest treaty that divided macedonia, into three parts, greece is worried that european union will have to make revision and return the lands by law.
Hope greece saved billions for compensating the macedonian people that lost there lands and for hardship, genocide they suffered in the hands of the greek dictatorship.
your question from before here's your [...]
Read the full commentanswer.
the burcarest treaty is it still valid, answer is yes till it expires in 2013.
the term magna grecia was not situated in present greece but the southern part of today's italy, guess who your neighbors were, correct it was the latins they named you thiefs greci and magna grecia big thiefs. it doesn't take einstein to figure this out.
you greeks should question how you recieved macedonian land,was it by inheritance or deception, I think it was the later, also you should question your own identity as greeks as there was no ancient greeks but, people called danai, coincidently they where named as thiefs by latin as greci. most of you are probably macedonians but you have a mix of danai.
My friend Sasha, there were more old people then young people at the protest because it is these old people who remember the past correctly!
They witnessed the injustices of the Greeks who took their lands and tried to assimilate them into their culture and change their names!
The old people who remember their fathers and grandfathers stating they are Macedonians not Greek Bulgarian or Serbian!
The old people who suffered through war, degradation, humiliation and ethnic cleansing!
As for you Sasha get a job any job and work to the best [...]
Read the full commentof your ability, get off your high intellectual horse, and really see the truth and work for a stronger and prosperous Macedonia!!!
too peter you claim, the europe is not some think!!!!(look greece is pure now)agess in fyrom you dont have news from world!!!!!!!IS C-R-I-C-Y O-N A-L-L W-O-R-L-D,is clear!!!!greece have 270 bilion economy and you have 15-20??? bilion,so dont worry for greece!!!!!wen greece take some eurofighter, and then you see how e.u stop all this about greece economy!!!!!butt the point is you not greece!!!!we dont have problem you are no nato,no e.u,and what he say the gruefski????and if the past 100 years still look for solution,a dont now how happy you are now!!!!!!!about your diaspora,is very <<fanatic>> butt you live in fyrom [...]
Read the full commentthe live too U.S.A or AUSTRALIA or EUROPE,you have the realy problem!!!!!a think is time too think very sirius!!!!!!one name like slavomakedonia os some thing like that!!!!sirius historic IN fyrom have fun with you,about your makedonian nation!!!!!!!!just because you are one fasistic country all this people is <<back>>you born with propaganda a now is not izzy for you too see <<OPEN>>only idiot the believe that you are makedonian!!!!!!you are slavic nation and you say you are makedonian!!!!!you speak slavic dialect and you say this is makedonian!!!!!!kiro gligorof (PM on fyrom 1990)says on greece press:we are not makedonian,we are slavs,we dont have nothing close too alexandros,we come on this area latter!!!!!!!!!!!this is very clear for sirius people!!!!!a aske lott of time on this forum the people from fyrom:what means makedonia?????no answer!!!!!!is normal because is greece word!!!!!the makedonian speak greece,have greece name,the old makedonia coin have greece word!!!!!the alexandros is prout ass hellenas (achileas)and not because is slavic like you!!!!!!this is clear by sirius historic and not by fyrom books!!!!!a think you dont realy care for history and just you want the propaganda!!!!!agess you feal shame like slavs!!!!!why???????only you now!!!!!greece look the future you stay with propaganda!!!!!!just you lose time and not the gruefski!!!!!!he is part of the problem!!!he want the problem he is PM because of the problem!!!!!!think!!!!!!!!
Greek Macedonia SupremacyFri, Dec 11 2009 12:14 CET
This is the second great diplomatic victory by Greece for a fair cause after the NATO summit in Bucharest. And more wins like this one will follow.
The next one will be the change of FYROM's name which is unevitable. No escape is possible.
the term magna grecia was not situated in present greece but the southern part of today's italy, guess who your neighbors were, correct it was the latins they named you thiefs greci and magna grecia big thiefs. it doesn't take einstein to figure this out.
you greeks should question how you recieved macedonian land,was it by inheritance or deception, I think it was the later, also you should question your own identity as greeks as there was no ancient greeks but, people called danai, coincidently they where named as thiefs by latin as greci. most of you are probably macedonians but you have a mix of danai.
"he would not find a government that could fulfil his conditions over the next 100 years," Gruevski was quoted by Dnevnik as saying."
With these statements Gruevski helps in finding a sollution with Greece? If fyrom has the right to self determination as "Macedonia" and "macedonians", why doesn't Greece and makedon-greeks don't have the right of being self determined so? Greece doesn't claim any land of fyrom and it is clear. Greece also can wait for 100 years to find a sollution. Fyrom can wait for so long???
Sorry macedonia-american MINA is part of nationalistic opinions. MINA always represents all news in nationalistic prose. You in big trouble to find a FYROM news which not nationalistic. Try american news they are better for europe news.
As a 1st generation American that qualifies for dual Macedonia-American citizenship, I have a personal interest in Macedonia gaining EU acceptance.
Your comments on this article and others on Sofia Echo regarding the "name issue" seem to be some of the most level-headed and in-depth analysis on the topic I've been able to find on the web. Perhaps because you are of neither Greek nor Macedonian descent and have some knowledge of the inner-workings of EU bureaucracy.
Do you happen to have a blog or [...]
Read the full commentwrite for any websites? I would love to find more intelligent and informed commentary on this issue. The English language news reports from sites like MINA are scant and appear to be rather poorly translated. The rest of the internet commenting on Macedonia and the EU seems to consist of mostly inexplicably angry Greek nationalists that YELL IN ALL CAPS. (In fact, if you can wait about a week for this semester is over, I'll build you a free Wordpress blog. You'll have one dedicated reader!)
If you'd rather not post here, feel free to contact me at novaroad at gmail dot com.
Thank you for being a voice in the wilderness, Koinos Nous.
If the Makedonski people receive EU membership it will be because their government accepted their identity as Makedonski and this is positive for the Land. EU should try harder to help the Makedonski people and stop supporting the Greeks. The Greek government still has its ancient Macedonian heroes but they should let the Makedonski with their Bulgarian heroes be Makedonski.
My Makedonski friends we support you in Spain.
2010 will bring good news to all Makedonskis.
To Peter and all his fascist diaspora this is for you for continual disregard of Macedonian freedom.
To all the diaspora and internal fascist supporters of our country here is what our student Macedonia Youth have always pronounced that it has always been a government inspired farce that our Macedonian Youth were partaking in any of these so-called nationalistic public protests. Here to all our jingoistic nationalists here read your crap, read it and then explain to the Macedonia Youth why we don't trust your ideologies.
9/12/09 FOCUS [...]
Read the full commentSkopje. More old than young people have presented at the protest in front of EU Representation in Skopje devoted to the deferred decision of EU Council EU Council on opening membership talks with Macedonia after Greece opposed an early start to the negotiations, Macedonian A1 television informed. Employees of the state administration from the east part of Macedonia told the television their boss have told them if anyone have not presented at the protest would not receive wage. In their words they have arrived with five busses and were free from work the whole day to come to the protest. No one wished to say who the organizer is or whether they have been politically motivated but confessed they support the ruling party.
Despite the protest was announced to be student most of the people have graduated long time ago.
The official organizer, the Student Parliament and the Union of Gymnasiums, denied of being politically motivated.
This farce has finally been highlighted why would our students support the most fascist government in the Balkans.
Long Live the Macedonian Youth Forever.
Students united against the fascists of Macedonia.
Gruevski and his monkey Milososki once again let down our Macedonia. He claims the alternative was losing our identity. The political rhetoric never changes when you've been using the same spin doctors for the last few years. Most of the Macedonian youth have caught on to his political rebounds after a national failure. More Macedonians are waking up to him they are realising that our identity was not on the negotiating table but rather our country's name. As long as he keeps the masses believing that the Greeks (& Bulgarians) want us to erase our Macedonian identity he will have a nationalistic following. The diaspora have won an enormous victory over this national failure. For the diaspora will gain far more influence in our domestic politics dictacting and bankrolling the puppets in our government and further dividing public opinion. While Gruevski stays in power we are to remain the country that could've but couldn't make the cut. As Georgi Spasov (leader of the Macedonian Think Tank DEMOS) said, Gruevski needs the Greek antagonism to stay in power which means no compromise. It would be ironic in deed if the fascists of our land were to negotiate our freedom. Its like saying that the Croation Ustase Fascists actually wanted Serbian neighbours while carrying out daily executions of tens of thousands of ordinary Serbian people. We will never forget.
Long Live the Macedonian Youth.
May the diaspora fascists build more houses, buy more cars and dream of more ancient tunics.
But please leave us alone!
Your pockets are filled deep with misery creating anguish. You don't live here so YOU shouldN'T have a saY IN OUR FUTURE.
mACEDONIA 4 THE mACEDONIAN yOUTH
Peter
Learn
The Glagolithic alphabet is followed by an entry, in both Glagolithic script and Latin translation, stating that this azbukinidarium (abecedarium) was commissioned by Abbot Divissus (Lat. also Dionysius, Cz. Diviš). The name Diviš also comes under the Cyrillic alphabet. It is hard to tell whether the reference here is to Diviš I, Abbot of the Monastery of Břevnov between 1360 and 1366 and a known doctor of theology, or Diviš II, Abbot between 1385 and 1409. The presence of the two alphabets in the Codex Gigas, however, must be connected with the upsurge of [...]
Read the full commentinterest in Slavic liturgy during the fourteenth century and the foundation in Prague of the Catholic-Slavic monastery of Emmaus (Cz. Emauzy), which obtained papal permission to hold its services in Church Slavonic. Monks from Croatia were called in to teach the Czech monks both the Church Slavonic language and the Glagolithic alphabet. The missionary brothers Cyril and Methodius were nominated the monastery’s patron saints, together with St Procopius. It was he who in the eleventh century founded the monastery of Sazava, a Benedictine community with a Slavic rite. Procopius’ successors, however, were expelled from Sazava, and in 1097 the Slavic monastery was captured by the crusaders and its library destroyed.
After March of 2010 if Macedonia is not given date for EU membership,Macedonia will withdrawl from the name talks.This is my prediction.I wish the Macedonian people all the best for protecting our identity.EU is not everything,just look at Greece who is poorer than ever.
Aegean KingThu, Dec 10 2009 21:05 CET
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Sorry Donbasillo to disapoint you,there was no Greece before 1829.Lets stick to the truth on history and without any bias.Historicly,Greece had a counsular services in Macedonia durring the Ottoman Empire durring 1903.If Macedonia was Greek as per your claim,why would Greece have a counsular service but not in Pelopones?Is it not a fact that the Greek PM Rallis boasted his co-operation with the Turks againts the Macedonian revolutionaries?Read his comments on "The New York Times".The year was 1903.Furthermore my friend Donbasillo,in 1925 at the League of Nations Greece agreed to produce the Abcedar for the Macedonian school children,is this a [...]
Read the full commentcoincidance.Why the Greek high ranking representative Vasilis Dendramanis told the Serbs and Bulgarians at that meetting that a Macedonian identity,language and customs do exist? That the people and their ethnicity is different than those of the Greeks,Serbs and Bulgarians?Did he make a mistake then,and now things changed,and how so?Why after the population exchange between Greece and Turkey all our toponims,familly names were changed to Greek?Why the ND leader Karamanlis declaired that the Christian Turks are the real Macedonians who are the ancient Macedonians?Than why today you Greeks claim you are the connection to the ancient Macedonians if the Turks are?This does not make any sense for your absurd claims,does it?In reality, you Greeks are denying your own identity by claiming you are Macedonians.History will sort its self out,not your politics.The whole problem with the question of Macedonia is purly Greek propaganda that is being exposed now.Once more,Greeks claim the Macedonians are Greek,so does Bulgaria claims we the Macedonians are Bulgarians.The question is;Can we be Macedoniana with two different identities?Think for a moment,same people,different identities,how can that be?The obvious reason is this,Greece does not want to admitt there are indigenous Macedonian people under Greek occupation,so does Bulgaria.Once more, it amounts to politics,not reality.
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AriesThu, Dec 10 2009 19:50 CET
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i personally agree with peter!!Afterall the EU path will be the same as NATO.You will enter finally but splited and with a proper name!!Until then be happy and celebrate with the bad things that are happening to Greece,so u can forget really really bad reallity...Peter i agree with u,EU is not for u time to understant it!
the correct translation of "Makedonski" into English is "Macedonian", the same as the correct translation of "Polski" is "Polish", or "Russkiy" is "Russian".
The pre-1913 German and French maps of the region (available elsewhere on this site) clearly show the area of both today's Greek Macedonia and that of former Jugoslav Macedonia as being ethnically populated by Slavs, Vlachs, and Turks. No mention there of "Macedonia Always Greek" - indeed very much the opposite.
Just a small point of historical accuracy to put against all this rhetoric from the Greek side (but [...]
It is ironic when a nation like Greece controling 27 member countries hostage on importent decisions as to who will or wont joing the club.The EU will selfdestructby allowing Greece to destroy ones nation that pre-existed them for many centuries.The EU knows very well why Greece is on this path,and this path must be stopped by nations of consciens.As a private citizen and Macedonian I believe Macedonia can do without the EU membership,and it should look to the east and USA.
Brief meeting between Macedonian president Gjorge Ivanov and Greek prime minister George Papandreou revives hopes for dialogue, according to Skopje media, while an EU official hopes the Macedonia name dispute will be solved in early 2010.
Prime Minister Boiko Borissov tells journalists in Brussels that Herman van Rompuy, European Council President-designate, will pay a brief working visit to Sofia on December 14 2009.
EC President Jose Barroso, meeting Macedonian prime minister Nikola Gruevski, says that there is a ‘real opportunity’ if both sides agree, to end the standoff about the use of the name Macedonia.
From December 19 2009, citizens of Serbia, Macedonia and Montenegro will be able to travel visa-free to the Schengen zone, a move seen as a step on the three countries’ way to European integration.
Greece needs the aid package from the European Union, the European Central Bank and the International Monetary Fund in order to avoid defaulting on $19 billion in bond payments due in March.
Here is something new,the EU comission has told Greece to recognize the Macedonian minority.Will this help Greece to come out with the truth on their 99.9% mythical purity?. Will this help Greece to come to reality and recognize the Republic of Macedonia?.Will this make Greece to change the fabrication of history? Lets hope,they will recognize their mythical claims.
still being an anti-greco activist on sofia echo? funny how the husband of your queen is a greek... and we all know that the heir to the throne did not get his looks from his father!
PS - call yourselves of higher status than the Mediterranean but was it not and english king who had 7 wives and executed one of them because he falsely accused her of having slept with her brother? (poor Anne Boleyn!)
GMS - Many thanks for the compliment. I always knew you were an admirer really...just occasionally your inadvertent misuse of language got in the way. (I can meanwhile recommend "Les usuels de Robert : Dictionnaire de Proverbes et Dictons, une partie d'une collection de guides pratiques, consacres a la langue francaise et a la culture." Don't bother doing your usual nit-picking act about French genders - I'm typing this verbatim off the back cover of the book, so if you have any issues, contact La Maison Robert directly.)
Yes, your racist sharp sense of humor is indeed really pleasant to read...
Never mind the Albanian Brigands - probably the Moderators will get there first ! Or else the "Sense of Humour Guardians", employed by blogsite monitors the world over...
Clearly you, even though an avowed French speaker, have never read "Hara Kiri - Journal Bete et Mechant", published in Paris for some years now. This would make anybody blush !
Compared with that, this site is a model of decorum, propriety, and sweet language.
"I suggest we terminate this correspondence now, before those Macedonian or Albanian or Turkish brigands (your choice: there is a drop-down menu somewhere) come and get you out of your Ivory Tower and then do unspeakable things of which this site cannot approve...."
>>>After the insults, now the threat? What is the next degree of your madness, nasty man?
Fine - GMS - you now admit everything that I suggested, but with your customary bad grace.
I suggest we terminate this correspondence now, before those Macedonian or Albanian or Turkish brigands (your choice: there is a drop-down menu somewhere) come and get you out of your Ivory Tower and then do unspeakable things of which this site cannot approve....
To the silly Koinos Nous, let's analyze your aggressive-provocative-extremist comments:
"Meanwhile, I begin to get the imnpression that my earlier comment that:
<<Meanwhile, I guess that GMS is an elderly unemployed lawyer somewhere in Northern Greece with an axe to grind as he hasn't been paid this month... >>
is entirely accurate, especially as you now confirm that you live in Greek Macedonia."
>>>So your reasoning is : "I am living in Macedonia" > "therefore I am an unemployed lawyer?" Great logic! Congratulations! You [...]
Read the full comment just earned the first price of stupidity!
"Now that the border has been re-opened with Macedonia's Schengen membership and the recent Greek concession, are you afraid about a visit from the original family who owned your house and land 50 years ago, before the Great Deportations ?"
Really nice one. Bravo! And let's combine it with this other quote of yours:
"I suggest, GMS, that you descend from your Ivory Tower somewhere near Athens (before the Macedonians invade it and hang you from the rooftops, that is)
>>>And then you say you have a scholar view and not a fanatic dream of a "Great Macedonia"...
"Ach, wie schwerigkeit mit idioten zu konversieren.....as they say in Koln."
>>>I do not need to speak German to understand that you think I am an "idiot" and you a scholar. You show a very nice attitude insulting the other interlocutors in different language there. Let me tell you that does not honour your person. But I think you even do not realize the bad image the people have from you on this blogsite. I will put it on the count of your disturbed psychology and your desperate jealousy of Greece.
GMS -
The actual phrase in English is "to be precise", not "to be precised". But then I am tolerant of your many linguistic mistakes, much more so than you are about the linguistic mistakes of others.
Meanwhile, I begin to get the imnpression that my earlier comment that:
<<Meanwhile, I guess that GMS is an elderly unemployed lawyer somewhere in Northern Greece with an axe to grind as he hasn't been paid this month... >>
is entirely accurate, especially as you now confirm [...]
Read the full comment that you live in Greek Macedonia.
Now that the border has been re-opened with Macedonia's Schengen membership and the recent Greek concession, are you afraid about a visit from the original family who owned your house and land 50 years ago, before the Great Deportations ?
It rather sounds like it......
To Koinos Nous:
"Meanwhile, I guess that GMS is an elderly unemployed lawyer somewhere in Northern Greece with an axe to grind as he hasn't been paid this month..."
>>>A silly bias coming from a childish interlocutor. Not worth to comment.
>>>Northern Greece: to be precised, I am living in Macedonia, the real and only one who is and has always been inside the greek state. The upper region outside Greece is called Skopje or the Republic of Vardaska and is quite uninteresting.
GMS - you say << Skopje's dreams of the EU and NATO >> (as you say - exact quote) is your own dream-world version of this title.
In contrast, I merely said:
<< Macedonia's EU Aspirations >>.
The actual title of this heading is (SEE ABOVE) :
<< EU membership talks delay means ‘disappointment but not surprise’ in Macedonia >>
I leave it to other readers to judge who is the more accurate of the two of us....
[...]
Read the full comment
Meanwhile, I guess that GMS is an elderly unemployed lawyer somewhere in Northern Greece with an axe to grind as he hasn't been paid this month...
The topic was originally Skopje's dreams of the EU and NATO. Just wanted to clarify this thing.
Have a nice day and New Year's Eve!
GMS
Before the Moderators enforce it upon us, GMS, I think this correspondence had better close. We are getting VERY OFF TOPIC, as the Topic originally was Macedonia's EU aspirations.
KONIEC - TERMA - TELOS
Articles from 2008 now? Why not from 2002? Not really worth the reading...
I will not waste my time to reply to the three uninteresting and largely off-topic posts that you wrote below and which reflect more a desperate attitude than an objective and serious approach of the situation. We cannot do changes like "exclusion", "punishment" so easily inside the EU nowadays. In the uncivilized Skopje maybe, but in EU not.
Everything has already been said and perfectly explained from part, while there is still any proof from your part on the table that [...]
Read the full comment EU officials ever thought to show the exit door of the Eurozone to Greece, nor for Ireland...
Therefore I am afraid I cannot talk with you if you do not submit to this precondition, just like the change of the name of Skopje...
GMS -
nt/archive/2008/12/13/david-frum-violence-in-greec e-could-make-euro-a-victim.aspx
And here's a link to an informed US financial journalist who is saying exactly the same thing about Greece (and Ireland) leaving the EuroZone:
http://network.nationalpost.com/np/blogs/fullcomme
There are many similar comments from the US/Canadian financial world.
I am afraid that we in "Fortress Europe" cannot ignore such market sentiments from Across The Pond - look at the effect that the Lehmann Brothers collapse had on European economies last year and this year !
On [...]
Read the full comment the other hand, I suppose we can all cry "Molon Lave" in our best Greek and expect the earth suddenly to become magically flat !
(MODERATORS - apologies that this (though interesting) is getting Off Topic: is there somewhere else on this site where we can follow up this highly topical thread instead ?
GMS - since you are clearly of the "earth is flat" belief about Greece leaving the EuroZone, here is something to suggest that the earth may be round after all:
ks-financial-armageddon-while-ireland-makes-cuts.h tml
http://www.creditwritedowns.com/2009/12/greece-ris
Not a bad summing-up of the situation (with quotes from the Financial Times), and it accurately states that Ireland is in rather the same boat.
I can post lots more posts from the international financial community than this, and they all say the same thing. As with any major financial devaulation / [...]
Read the full comment realignment (as we in the UK know well), the more denials there are, the more likely it is to happen.
I suggest, if you have any old drachma notes left, you carefully conserve them.....
GMS - On reflection, I should have explained a great deal more about how to read newspaper 'links', as clearly you did not realise you had to scroll down to the extreme end of the item (had you done so, you would have seen the exact verbatim extract that I had previously posted on this site).
I am being more polite than I would normally be to you, as others might find this topic interesting too.
Going "Top Down":
(a) the UK Financial Times is perhaps the best [...]
Read the full comment UK source of international economic news, and it is easily accessed on screen via Google. BUT - and this is a big BUT - you can't download or post a 'link'(except for a snippet twice in every 30 days, which is about as much use as a chocolate teapot.)
(b) the next is the Times, where you can download and post links (so far - they're going to tighten up in 2010). And in theory you can add comments on the end of the article you post. BUT - in practice, if you try to post a comment, the Times will email back to you to ascertain your professional credentials and experience first. ADVANTAGE - comments appended to an article (such as I recently posted here) are authoritative and relevant. DISADVANTAGE - don't even try to post comments to the Times yourself, unless you're Government Minister or of similar rank. The same notoriously applies to the Times "Letters" column.
(c) the Telegraph is similar to the Times, but slightly less strict.
(d) the Independent equally so, though politically more left-of-centre
(e) the Grauniad - sorry, Guardian, is even more left-of-centre, but famous/notorious for its spelling mistakes.
Hope this is helpful to EVERYBODY
For the desperate argumentation of Mr. Koinos Nous, the advocate of the lost FYROM cause:
s/financialcrisis/6827320/SandP-downgrades-Greece- while-concerns-mount-over-secret-defence-budget.ht ml
"(a) you didn't scroll down far enough. The comments below the article are all from professionals (The Times vets them extremely carefully to make sure they are authoritative and that those posting are qualified to comment), and one of them rehearses the possibility of Greek leaving not just the Eurozone, but the EU itself"
>>>Answer: this is laughable: you are talking about comments written by an unknown X person who read this article and expressed his personal [...]
Read the full comment theory, just like you are doing. He is far from being a professional as you want us to believe it, but sounds more like one of those British Museum defenders of the Parthenon marbles... I can register an account there and write a comment too. That is not a big deal.
What I was waiting for you is comment from EU officials, that this thought of excluding Greece from the Eurozone ever came to their mind. But you failed to show me it... once again!
"b) the following article from last week's Daily Telegraph is even more illuminating:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk:80/finance/financetopic
Seemingly not only is Greece's enormous "defence" budget a State Secret from the EU, but even Papandreou may not know exactly what it is. The legacy of the Colonels Regime clearly lives on....
Even more "amusing" (to you and me but not to the EU Financial Authorities !) is the revelation that some Greek Ministries do not yet use standard double-column book-keeping, a mere 700 years after the Venetians invented it !!
(presumably the Greek Ministries concerned are also still using the abacus rather than computers !)
This will have gone down like the proverbial Ton Of Lead with the EuroZone authorities. What further revelations of poor Greek government fiscal practice have still to emerge, one asks oneself ?"
>>>Answer: lot of talks for finally nothing... You did not learn us anything new about the greek financial crisis. The greek government did not hide it and openly asked help from Brussels. There are current plans to restablish the situation under the own recommandations of the EU. And I have to remind you that any economical/political sanctions were taken by the EU till now... So no problem at all. You are definitely a drama queen.
"You can take it that, when I talk of the possibility of Greece leaving the EuroZone, I know of what I speak......"
>>>Answer: From what I read, the way you are desperately trying to manipulate some odd articles to convince anyone seems not indicate it...
That Greece would leave the Eurozone is just impossible and a crazy/unlogical theory on the top of that. Why? Because Greece would have to change the Euro and instead restablish the old drachma? Are you serious?? Haha, that would cost far more money to the EU than to help Greece with its financial crisis. And I do not count that all the euros will have to be reimprinted without euro written in greek, "ΕΥΡΟ"...
So nah, just for this, it will never happen. Sorry if I just demolished your utopic hopes...
On the other hand, we cannot talk about Skopje and the Eurozone. This project is too far to think seriously about it... Skopje would have first to enter the EU, do reforms to modernize its very old fashioned economy, change the name, etc, etc... Nah, that is still a dream...
GMS -
s/financialcrisis/6827320/SandP-downgrades-Greece- while-concerns-mount-over-secret-defence-budget.ht ml
(a) you didn't scroll down far enough. The comments below the article are all from professionals (The Times vets them extremely carefully to make sure they are authoritative and that those posting are qualified to comment), and one of them rehearses the possibility of Greek leaving not just the Eurozone, but the EU itself.
(b) the following article from last week's Daily Telegraph is even more illuminating:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk:80/finance/financetopic
Seemingly not only is Greece's enormous "defence" budget [...]
Read the full comment a State Secret from the EU, but even Papandreou may not know exactly what it is. The legacy of the Colonels Regime clearly lives on....
Even more "amusing" (to you and me but not to the EU Financial Authorities !) is the revelation that some Greek Ministries do not yet use standard double-column book-keeping, a mere 700 years after the Venetians invented it !!
(presumably the Greek Ministries concerned are also still using the abacus rather than computers !)
This will have gone down like the proverbial Ton Of Lead with the EuroZone authorities. What further revelations of poor Greek government fiscal practice have still to emerge, one asks oneself ?
You can take it that, when I talk of the possibility of Greece leaving the EuroZone, I know of what I speak......
OMG! Are you kidding me and the people of this blogsite, Mr Koinos Nous? I read your article and it is NOT the same one you wrote below with the link you provided me??! There is any single mention of "Greece being excluded from the Eurozone", but simply an analysis of the financial crisis...
>>>Therefore: source unvalid, article falsified = error
Definitely you have some serious malfunctions with your argumentation...
Also some terrible french orthographic mistakes like "vriae orgeuil" instead of "vrai orgueil", "un" fois instead of "une" [...]
Read the full comment fois, "paraissuex" instead of "paresseux", seems to be the confirmation of a distorted language and a severe mark of illiteracy.
But what comes out from your weird personal story, is that you are unable to quote one article coming from an EU official. Thus, Greece encounters no danger with the Eurozone and that those words about exclusion/isolation of Greece come exclusively from your mouth.
You got trapped yourself...
Best Regards,
Greek Macedonia Supremacy
GMS - you've got a cheek / tu avez un vriae orgeuil un fois, Mijnheer
economics/article6967246.ece
As it's Christmas, I'll give you the link, but otherwise
(a) do your own homework and don't be paraissuex / lazy
(b) read elsewhere on this very site and you'll find all the gen you need on the Greek economy.
Link is: http://business.timesonline.co.uk:80/tol/business/
( By the way, major financial decisions like leaving the EuroZone or reducing / increasing interest rate are [...]
Read the full comment NOT normally announced in advance !)
Link please? I want confirmation from the source.
GMS - rather a long quote from today's London "Times" (also see other headings on the Sofia Echo site):
<< Most analysts have failed to mention that since joining the euro, Greek retail prices have shot up, loans have become cheaper and more plentiful and patronage and corruption has ballooned out of all proportion. This example of bad governance is not helped by spiralling military spending, a still growing public sector and salaries and expenses for MPs and other Greek civil servants that make Germany, France and the UK look mean. Interestingly, many Greeks blame the [...]
Read the full comment EU and the European Bank for making too much money available and for enticing Greece to enter into large, expensive public sector projects. They forget that the Greek government has a choice to say no if it believes a project is not in its interests. They also forget that 10 million Greeks last year received almost 9 billion euros in EU handouts, more than Poland with a population of 40 million. Greeks who continue to blame everyone except themselves for their greed should take note that Stalin and Churchill sacrificed the liberty of Eastern Europe to allow Greece to be free after World War 2. It seems to me this was a big mistake -- Greece's Communist rebels should have been allowed to take over the country and Eastern European states should have been allowed to be free and outside the Stalinist bloc. If the Greeks continue to spend other people's money they should be shown the door and expelled from the EU (and also NATO, since most of them say they dislike it so much). Greece is no longer strategically important and should not, therefore, be allowed to blackmail its Western partners, when there are so many East European countries that are so much more deserving of Western aid such as Romania, Bulgaria, Slovakia, the Czech Republic, Poland, Hungary and the Baltic states. >>
I myself make no comment....
Let is be serious for Christmas: where did you read Greece will be excluded from the Eurozone? Give me at least ONE "serious" quote or source from distinguished EU officials which was saying it?
If you do not deliver me at least ONE quote, that will show nothing but negative/unrealistic feelings with a crazy dose of fanatism against Greece.
Aurais-tu mangé la barbe du Père Noël, Charlot?
GMS - in which case, fYRoM could very well be joined by Greece, at least as far as exclusion from the EuroZone is concerned.
Kales Giortes....
meanwhile, even a five-year old child could calculate that establishing a "pariah state" on your own borders is Probably Not A Very Good Idea, especially if your own economy is weak.
just a thought to the wise...
Nah, it is not going to happen. Too much interests are in the game to afford to do a single modification to the actual VETO system.
I am sincerely afraid Fyrom will stay away from Europe for a very very long time...
GMS - Nah, the much more likely outcome is that the Council Secretariat and the members of the "Troika" ( the previous EU Presidency, the present Presidency, and the immediately future Presidency) will get together to disable the entire "single Member State" veto mechanism. Under the Lisbon Treaty they can in fact do this, but it needs a bit of organising.
Srecen Bozic. as they say in Slovenia for "Happy Christmas"....
This are actually good news for Greece. If more countries will apply the VETO, then the diplomatic game behind the exercize of VETO will be more complex and change. In a few words, we can expect some strategies between countries to block massively the entrance of Skopje for example and in return to let/block the accession talks of Serbia. I let you imagine the possibilities and obviously the great prejudice the generalization of the VETO can occur for Skopje...
Getting Back On Topic (hearty sigh of relief from Moderators !), on 22 December Serbia applied to join the EU.
Now this is going to make "Veto" into an art form - existing member-states will be queuing up in the EU Berlaymont building to apply it !
First in the queue will be Netherlands, still smarting over Srebrenice and their peace-keeping force being maltreated by Serbs.
Next in line will be Slovenia, for all the usual ex-Yugoslav reasons (the Slovenes basically don't want any other ex-Yugoslav states into [...]
Read the full comment the EU. They haven't vetoed Macedonia yet, but only because the Greeks have done the job for them so far.)
Queueing behind Slovenia will be Croatia (if it has managed to force/bribe its way into the EU despite the Slovene veto), and then Denmark and Finland.
And then will come Hungary, with its own Serb issues in Voivodina, and finally possibly Bulgaria, who owes the Serbs no favours during the past 20 years (let alone the Balkan long-memory factor.)
Happy Days to Come - a Veto a Day Keeps the Balkans Away !
Aries - I'm not at all trying to revise Homer (moi ?), but what's the Ancient Greek for the English texts that you quote ?
I must admit that I was better at Xenophon, who has 'douloi' now and again as well as lots of mentions of bustards (grateful if you can remind me of what the Ancient Greek for "bustard" is, and no - Peggy - I haven't made a spelling mistake.)
I must admit that, of the two ancient languages, I preferred Latin at school, although the flexible and inventive [...]
Read the full comment way that Ancient Greek used participles was rather attractive, and the Lidell&Scott Greek lexicon was much better than its Latin equivalent.
Also, I don't recall the Romans writing great drama, whereas the Ancient Greeks certainly did.
The trouble is, that modern Athens certainly isn't Ancient Greece in any respect (except for the alphabet), any more than Trastevere is Ancient Rome. And the area around Roma Termini station is definitely best avoided....
O tempora, o mores....
k.Nous
Do not try to revise Homer
Iliad book III.
and let their wives become the slaves of strangers.
once in illiad Douloi.
Odyssey book VIII
the back and shoulders, and carry her off into slavery, to a life of labor and sorrow
and once in the Odessey douleia
I come to the conclusion that you were forced to study classics
from then emanates a bitterness
toward anything Greek.
[...]
Read the full comment />
and
Well, Aries, thanks for the Greek text of what we call the "Nunc Dimittis" (Lord, lettest Thou Thy servant depart in peace), but I'm not sure which side of the case you are supporting. Or possibly neither.....
You seem to be agreeing with me that "sklavos" is not Classical Greek, and is derived from the later Latin word "esclavus".
As for the older word "doulos", it seems to have changed its meaning slightly over time during the Classical period; my recollection is from Homer that it meant "slave" in a rather more [...]
Read the full comment literal sense (definitely with exploitation, and probably chains too.)
Not sure that this will get our Australian friends anywhere except to crack open another stubbie (can of beer) over the barbie (barbecue), but it doesn't seem likely that there is any direct reference to Slavonic culture or history.
Koinos.Nous
Category error
1) In the Classic Times of Athens there was no word ΣΚΛΑΒΟΣ
2) ΣΚΛΑΒΟΣ Sklavos or Slave are attributed to someone who is working under conditions of exploitation
3) Doulos is used in the Holy Scriptures with the sense of servitude without exploitation in modern Greek ΔΟΥΛΕΙΑ means work which in turn means ΕΡΓΑΣΙΑ
ΣΥΜΕΩΝ
Νυν απολύεις τον δούλον σου
Δέσποτα, κατά το ρήμα σου εν ειρήνη,
ότι είδον οι οφθαλμοί μου το σωτήριόν
σου … Φως εις αποκάλυψιν εθνών [...]
Read the full comment
και δόξαν λαού σου Ισραήλ».
Simeon says when he is given infant Jesus Christ before Salomon’s temple thus seeing Him cries out
Simeon
<< Now , You can relieve Your servant of his life,
as You have promised , in peace. For my eyes
Have seen the Savior …. Light for all nations
and to the Glory of your people Israel>>
===================================Servant is used and not slave.
the modern Greek Sklavos Derives
from the latin Esclavus.
I accept the SERF version.
I have now dug up the best Internet reference I could - in French, but I assume we all read French, so that should be ok / ca ira assez bien :
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Esclavage
In brief, the Greek word "sklavos" is very late Byzantine Greek (c.1000 AD), and is derived from the Latin "esclavus", and the early French word "esclave". The Greek word does NOT appear to have been known or used in Ancient or Biblical Greek, which should settle one argument at least !
And, as I [...]
Read the full comment said before, it seems to have covered a variety of positions from absolute personal imprisonment to "serf" time (or servitude) labour for a Lord of the Manor for a fixed period of days' work per year, which existed in nearly all Northern European countries until the sixteenth century, and in France rather longer.
Aries -
I take your point, but the linguistic distinction between "servant" and "slave" in a very fine one - the Confederate States in the US always used to refer to their slaves as "servants", for a start ("unpaid servants") of course !
Classical English-Greek thesaurus dictionaries such as the reputed Liddell & Scott always translate "doulos" as "slave", which is good enough for me (and probably also good enough for Xenophon and Herodotus.)
New Testament Greek is often a victim of its translators, as many theologians have [...]
Read the full comment found (notably St Thomas Aquinas).
About "Slava" (glory) versus "Slovo" (word) there is less of a firm academic reference, though the point about "Nie miec" referring to the "speechless" Germans remains unanswered if you adopt the "Slava" theory; the early Slavs clearly seem to have adopted a kinship criterion of who understood whom and who didn't.
Mind you, even the "Slava / Glory" theory doesn't fit if the word is meant to mean "slave" !
I look forward to GMS's informed and masterly contribution in due course....
No mate had to ask around at the pub and me Greek mates reckon that slave comes from sklavos which was what they called all these Yugislavs back then. Your doulos mate happens to mean worker, servant, etc. Me Yugislav mates on the other hand reckon that slovo is also a name so I dunno.
Wheres me mate Dr. Yugislav I was betting down the pub he would've had an answer for me Yugislavs with Gold teeth question. The boys reckon he'll have a good answer and I can't wait actually. Come on doc get your act together [...]
Read the full comment and ask some of your Yugislav mates why they all wear gold teeth. Ah yeah and don't forget an answer why you stealing our Aussie (Dr.Oz)identity when we all know you are a Yugislav from the Yugislavia lands.
Come on Aussie, Come on, Come on.
K.Nous
<<<(1) the Greek word for "slave" is actually "doulos", both in Ancient and in Mediaeval / Modern Greek. Certainly in the Greek New Testament it is "doulos", declined the same way as "thanatos". The Greek surname "Christodoulos" (slave of Christ) is a good example
>>>
================================
I think That "servant" instead of slave would be more correct and more "a propos" with The Holy
Scriptures
As for the Slav I am not sure if Slovo "the Word " "LOGOS" or
Slava "Glory" "DOXA" [...]
Read the full comment etymologically more correct
it may be a little out of topic.
Jeffery - 'fraid there are two slight flaws in your argument, cobber:
(1) the Greek word for "slave" is actually "doulos", both in Ancient and in Mediaeval / Modern Greek. Certainly in the Greek New Testament it is "doulos", declined the same way as "thanatos". The Greek surname "Christodoulos" (slave of Christ) is a good example.
(2) the word "Slav" actually derives from the term "slovo", meaning 'word' in all Slavonic languages. So the Slavs were the people who had "the word". Hence the term "Niemiec" to describe the Germans in Slav [...]
Read the full comment languages - "nie" means 'not', and 'miec' means 'to speak' in older Slavonic, so the Germans were "those who do not speak", i.e. those who do not have "the word".
This is slightly over-simplifying obviously, as whole books have been written on this issue, but that's basically the origin of both words.
So I'm afraid that your blokes in the pub got this one a bit wrong.
I don't know if any native-Greek speakers want to comment on this, but even GMS might find it hard to disagree for once.
Oh come on mate! Dr. Yugislav the reason I reckon the Greeks have a better stake to their identity than you Yugislavs is that Aussie history has taught us that Alexander the Great was a famous general who spread Greek civilisation. You can't argue with that mate regardless you already have a Yugislav ethnicity. We been talking at the pub an the word is you Yugislavs are called slavs because you were once upon a time slaves of the Greeks when you came to that land in middle ages. I mean thats an unreal way to get an identity slaves=slavs [...]
Read the full comment unreal or what. Who would have thought that your mob who were once slaves now want to change to a Greek name. Why didn't you change that when all your lives you are called Yugislavs and especially here in OZ mate where if you don't say Yugislavs no-one knows who are. You still haven't answered Doc Yugislav why so many of your Yugislav countrymen all wear Gold teeth is it what the word is a head swelling exercise or is it to promote your identity. If you remember Tony the Yugislav in the movie he showed how Yugislav culture hasn't changed for years. Another question Dr. Yugislav if you are a Yugislav why do you call yourself Oz when that is stealing our identity in Oz is it a Yugislav pastime to hijack everyones ID or what. I reckon that the boys down at the pub are right that Yugislav history is younger than our Aussie history and we are happy to civilise you and educate you on world history.
So dr. Yugislav have a reply about you Yugislav gold teeth and why you hijacking our Aussie ID.
Come On Aussie, Come on, Come on.
To Koinos Nous: now I understand from where comes your communist approach of the Skopje conflict... Adoration to the Great Alexander, - sorry -, "Great Lenin" seems to be your moto.
As for the greek KKE, it is now an old-fashioned party mostly ruled by old generation persons. It will soon disappear from the greek political map. Such ideas cannot work any longer nowadays.
Thanks, Aries - I hope you don't disagree too much with my description of the KKE ?
(If you're going to have a Communist Party, let it at least be a useful and effective one, like the Chinese...)
All of us i must admit owe a great thanks to K.Nous for the Ellegy to
Leninn.
GMS - how dare you ! The immortal V.I.Lenin is/was never wrong. His legacy was somewhat traduced by neo-revisionists under Leon Trotsky, that is true. And Jozef Dhughashvili (a.k.a. Stalin) did him no favours either. (Note how I spell "favours"....) But the Great Man had a vision that still inspires Leninists and true Marxists today.
I suppose Greece always has the KKE as supposed beneficiaries of the "Lenin Legacy", but they always appear to be more pre-occupied with local in-fighting (and Hating the Turks / Bulgarians / Albanians / fyrMacedonians as well.) God, doesn't Greece like [...]
Read the full comment ANYBODY ?
Lenin's doctrine of the Universal Brotherhood of All Workers would have solved that....
Proletarians of all the World, Unite / Proletariusz wszystkich krajow, lacznie sie (as they used to say in Warsaw until the Great Betrayal in 1989.)
To Koinos Nous, the "V.I.Lenin" reference is not a good quote: look what happened to the USSR...
Though there are good chances this case applies to FYROM in one-two years.
Ozy/K.Nous
Qui s'assemble se ressemble
Plaid Cymru-the Party of Wales
Rainbow-Vinozhito
Scottish National Part
Silesian Autonomy Movement
Slovenska Skupnost
Parties with left-separist tendencies
from florina.org for the full list
under New manifesto.
the rest is silent!
Cheers
GMS - the Athenians had a very clear idea about how their "polis" ("city-state" to those who don't read Greek) was different from all others in Ancient Greece, and since their population was more inclined to literature as compared to (say) Sparta, they have left us quite a lot of record of this.
Greece might be better employed these days in working out how best to get itself out of its current financial mess, rather than speculating yet again about ancient history.
As the immortal V.I.Lenin said, it is modern history that [...]
Read the full comment counts !
(By the way, in Europe "favor" is always spelled "favour".)
Aries,you have to be blind or maybe ignorant not to understand why Mitsotakis did not take Milosevices proposal.Remember,Bulgaria has part of Macedonia and Albania as Greece has.What part of Macedonia would they have gone after you think? I wonder,why Mitsotakis bribed so many journalists,publishers and shamefuly I will admmitt the highest office of the Republic of Macedonia.The names are published where the money ended up.Macedonias Prime Minister Gruevski has accomplished more in just 2 years than Crvenkovski,Frckovski,Sekerinska and others combined.Those Macedonians who have accepted money in black garbage bags simply are the garbage of the Republic of Macedonia.The reason of [...]
Read the full comment the delay to joing the NATO and EU is the obstruction of these same people who have sold their sole to a foreighn country-Greece.I guess,Georgievski did not get anything from Greece since he turned out to be sold to Bulgaria.I wonder if he got something from the Bulgarians.On the Greek side though,you should be ashamed of Karamanlis declairing that the Pontious are the real ancient Macedonians.Why than a double standard?.Why Greece,the none Pontious are claiming they are the ancient Macedonians? Can three identities claim one identity?.How can a Greek Albanian (40%) the population of Greece claim to be Macedonian?.I bet my bottom penny,you are unable to answer these questions historicly,dont bother politicly as we know where that will get us.The EU need to have guts to tell Greece to stop the historical lies it spreads.EU,must tell Greece to stop using the money given to them by the EU for political purposes,but invest in peoples interest.The longer Greece objects to Macedonias membership the worst for Greece,mark my word.Suggestion;Read what Karakasidou and Skoulariki have said on the Macedonian question,than maybe we can have a meaningful discussion.
To the schizophrenic Dr Jekyl and Mr. Hide, - sorry I should to say, Dr Oz and Mr. Koinos Nous -, you would do to all of us a favor for Christmas if you decide to stop to copy paste everytime your old revisionnist articles with your distorted facts and own "abracadrabesque" interpretations of the World History, because they will convince anyone except you...
Every normal person knows the Greek History well, while Skopje's one remains really obscure and quite uninteresting at the end.
Also you reach a very low level of [...]
Read the full comment culture when you decide to distinguish Greeks from Macedonians, Thracians, etc. Soon you will separate Athenians from the Greeks. Not only your ridiculous approach is very wrong, but it proves to all of us that you have no idea what Greeks are as a civilization.
I would suggest you to waste all your energy for the promotion of the history of Vardaska instead. There is maybe something to get out from it.
With my deepest respect,
GMS
I'm not sure whether my previous link to the Wikipedia site worked - if not, here it is again:
19%E2%80%931922)#Shift_of_support_towards_Turkish_ Revolutionaries
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greco-Turkish_War_(19
And - Moderators - please do not block this on grounds of "spam - repeated content". I am simply trying to ensure that what I intended to post in the first instance actually gets posted !
Ozy.
Oh ! dear not again !!!
Back to square one !!!
The sun rises in the east sets in the west wether you revisionists like or not.
Come up with something smarter.
Cheers
Koinos Nous, as to the article you suggest we read, again some historians I feel mislead the public in their inaccurate descriptions.
Where he states," traditional Greek lands of Macedonia and Thrace", should have stated that the Greeks had colonies in Macedonia and Thrace and totally ignores the other cultures that have resided in these areas since ancient times!
It is to these biased historians that the Greeks have any legs to stand on!!!
Je regrette respectivement d'etre en desaccord.
Jeffrey, I see you improved your English writing skills since your last post, I guess you can thank me for that.
I should not have taken your bait, as your chides have become pathetic and just take on more and more the repetitive uneducated Greek line of promoting hate and racism, from I'm sure a hero of yours called Hitler!!!
Un qui jette des accusations doit les soutenir avec l'intelligence pas avec un espirit vide!!!
This thorough Wikipedia study of the Greek / Turkish war of 1919/21 will interest everybody on both sides of this everlasting debate:
19%E2%80%931922)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greco-Turkish_War_(19
I know that GMS will immediately leap to decry Wikipedia, but this is an exceptionally well-researched entry that quotes a good number of external academic sources, and is studiously neutral in its analytical approach.
Would that some of the postings on this site observed the same discipline !
(No connection with Dr Oz, by the way - [...]
Read the full comment he and I certainly agree on that one.)
My dear Greek friends, I see I have been admonished, by the moderator and I must apologize for stooping to the Greek level of belittling and insults!
To the discouragement of Aries and G.M.S., I am not Koinos Nous's shadow.
It's seems also I must watch my spelling as it is also susceptible to stern criticism, which seems hypocritical since I have seen many grammar mistakes made by my honourable and arrogant Greek friends.
Now how can I rebut such distinguished answers from my Greek friends without encoring the wrath of the moderator? Oh [...]
Read the full comment yes, Macedonia will join the E.U. in 2010 and all Macedonians will rejoice as one!!!
Oh come on Dr. Yugislav our Aussie language is not that different from any other English. You know mate I'm actually liking this new Greek identity stuff its pretty cool. My mate Zoran would disagree but like most Yugislavs his command of Australian is as good as most migrants in our country. Dr. Yugislav you oughta get out more mingle with our Aussie culture get to learn our lay back lifestyle and then you Yugislavs would for sure mingle more with Aussies. Just comin back to why so many of your Yugislav people have gold teeth. Last night at the [...]
Read the full comment pub me mate luigi who is Italian background said that Yugislavs were the last people in Europe to break out of poverty and high level of uneducated people, so gold teeth was a way you Yugislavs could show all your neighbours how well of you were hiding your poverty. I reckon mate that makes good sense. When my ancestors came here in the convict boats they only had the rags on their backs mate nothin else. So it makes sense mate that there are many Yugislavs today who need gold teeth to show their fellow Yugislavs how well off they are and their individual importance. You know Dr. Yugislav there ain't that many Yugislavs who can speak proper Australian most even have a strong accent and also born here that is bad social skills. Mate you should embrace the land you migrate and not create little ghettoes its not fair to everyone. Look at the Italians, Chinese, Greeks, Spanish, Portuguese thay all have integrated mate but your mob Dr. Yugislav still hang together. If you go to any primary or high school you can spot the Yugislavs because of their funny shaved, rattail hairdo's hanging in the corner of the playground speaking Yugislav. Not good mate you oughta tell your Yugislav mates Dr. yugislav that they should become part of our Aussie people and not be an unecessary burden on us. Well mate do you Yugislavs have christmas the same time as us if you do have a good one.
Come On Aussie, Come on , Come on.
This comment has been removed by the moderator because it contained foul, abusive or discriminating language
Godness, the last posts of Koinos Nous with the Molon lave lessive were so, humm, impressive... Really, I am speechless by this skopjan cultural knowledge. I understand better know why people from this country think they are the inheritors of Alexander and are building crazy greek statues. This is simply part of a genetic syndrome, I cannot explain it differently.
This comment has been removed by the moderator because it contained off-topic content
This comment has been removed by the moderator because it contained off-topic content
This comment has been removed by the moderator because it contained off-topic content
This comment has been removed by the moderator because it contained off-topic content
This comment has been removed by the moderator because it contained off-topic content
sorry - awkward typo. "genetic market" should be "genetic marker"
Aries - when you say:
<<nothing to do with ancient Egyptians they are of Arab / Nubian descendance the real descendents of the Egyptians are the Copts most of them Christianized through the ages. >>
....this is analogous to modern Greece (read the iGenia DNA files !). Somewhere, someplace, there may well be ethnic descendants of Ancient Greeks dotted around the Aegean basin (as much in Turkey as in modern Greece !)
But elsewhere, as iGenia says, the modern Greek population appear to be as "de nature heteroclite" [...]
Read the full comment (i.e. heavily ethnically mixed) as anywhere else in Europe, with the possible exception of the Balts and the Bretons, who were simply too far away for ethnic miscegenation to occur.)
I don't recall any ethnic distinction in Egypt between Copts and other Egyptians, except that some of the Copts had red hair...I suppose a genetic market of sorts.
This comment has been removed by the moderator because it contained off-topic content
K.Nous/Oz.
t;>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>&g t;>>>>>>>>
<<<Well, there's always the earlier example of the Ancient Egyptians, who set up an even more impressive ancient civilisation < 1000 years before Ancient Greece; thanks to the Rosetta Stone we can now understand what their hieroglyphics signified.
Compare their civilisation with the modern Egyptians...do I need to press the analogy any further ?
Or maybe a walk round the soukh in Luxor would do the trick >>>>>>>>>>>>&g
As usual when cornered you start displaying “unexpected ignorance”
About the Rosetta stone (R.s) I was [...]
Read the full comment the one who first attecked the subject in a former post responding to a mind game publication which no more no less stated that the middle language on the R.s was Ancient Macedonian.
The Rs as known is a slab of basalt on which archeologists found engraved with three scriptures first the Hieroglyphic the language of the Priests and educated Egyptians second the Demotic or Coptic the language of the less educated and third language was the lingua franca of all the Mediterranean of the time Ancient Greek.
My point is that the people at Luxor’s soukh have nothing to do with ancient Egyptians they are of Arab / Nubean descendance the real descendents of the Egyptians are the Copts most of them Christianized through the ages.
The sun rises in the East!.
cheers
"Classics" at university is nothing to do wuth modern politics - read Bismarck on that one - and (as I posted earlier) Egypt is rather a good example.
Dr Oz and I are not the same person, but we share the same Secret Witches Coven in Transylvania so as to plot even more dastardly deeds against Agia Ellas / Holy Greece, with the aid of the Romanian government and our old friend Count Dracula (him of the many empty coffins).
Our patron is Stefan Cel Mare Si Sfint, former ruler of the [...]
Read the full comment Republic of Moldova (whose picture is on all their banknotes).
"Molon Lave" (in Romanian / Moldovan) is a well-known brand of washing-powder / lessive inherited from the Communist days. But is does wash "whiter than white", so people still but it (a bit like some Communist-era products have done quite well in today's united Germany.)
<< Persil washes white, but Molon Lave washes even whiter...>>
Ozy/Koinos.nous
<<<Wow! You Greeks amaze me, not only are your uneducated, foul and demeaning but you intellectuals get the same way when cornered!(must be a Greek trait, found in you D.N.A)
Aries your words trying to associate me with the stazi, simply shows your great fear that ___________we Macedonians ___________are right and so you try the old trick of associating your opposition to the evil side. As for your demand for references that has been quite fulfilled by others who have done so splendidly, but seems to be arrogantly dismissed by yourself.
>>>
[...]
Read the full comment /> We Macedonians my foot it is We
Macedonian in disguise mon vieux go play around AS MUCH AS YOU LIKE with the INGEA
but refer too to Cambridge , Oxford , Harvard ,Berlin, Sorbonne, just to name a few,
libraries on classics.
We Greeks are not very much different from other people ceteris paribus but when we
hear nonsense and specially we react To peoples who try to prove that THE SUN RISES IN
THE WEST to justify their existence.
To assist you in your quest in Marxian Economics ,satisfy the Marxian side of you thru Joan Robinson’s Essay on Marxian Economics which the late Professor examines the Economic only implications of Marxism I would suggest “The Accumulation of Capital” her Grand Opus. She was a legend in her field I can assure you.
about being corenered
"on ne parle pas de corde dans la maison d'un Pendu "
how many times do i have to tell
you that.
Well see, Aries: Koinos Nous & Dr Oz are the same person. Because Koinos Nous is unable to give strenght to his silly arguments against Greece, he needs an alter ego to prove he is right while he is not. Kinda schizophrenic for an attitude...
Also I have the worse difficulties to understand where his reasonings are going such like this one:
"Doubtless the Greek "veto" will re-kindle and recall such memories amongst Macedonia's more elderly inhabitants....."
>>>I cannot get what Macedonia and the Greek veto have in [...]
Read the full comment common, since Macedonia is Greek and in Greece. A weird paradox...
I would not mention his strange (morbid) interpretation of the "Emphylios Polemos" which sounds like a clear provocation (Skopjans are the best for that) and which has nothing to do with Skopje's non- entrance to the EU and NATO.
It is because of distorted minds like Koinos Nous and Gruevski that the poor country of Skopje cannot advance logically and is still lost in the middle of nowhere on the map. They are building instead giant meaningless statues and falsified identities.
Even Albania is more civilized than Skopje...
Well, there's always the earlier example of the Ancient Egyptians, who set up an even more impressive ancient civilisation < 1000 years before Ancient Greece; thanks to the Rosetta Stone we can now understand what their hieroglyphics signified.
Compare their civilisation with the modern Egyptians...do I need to press the analogy any further ?
Or maybe a walk round the soukh in Luxor would do the trick instead ?
Koinos.nous/Dr.Oz
Continue my friend under a new
"nom de plume" making a fool out
of yourself.
I like the word "arogantly"
very "a propos"
Cheers
GMS - If I recall correctly, (which of course I may not do) Greece had a little local misunderstanding involving not only Macedonia but also the ethnicity of its inhabitants from 1946 to 1949, in which apparently 10% of the Greek population died.
dex.htm
I know you don't like Wikipedia as you think it's biased against Greece, so here is a much better link to what was called at the time "Ellenikos Emphulios Polemos" (Greek Civil War - to non-Greek speakers).
Doubtless the Greek "veto" will re-kindle and recall such memories amongst [...]
Read the full comment Macedonia's more elderly inhabitants.....
http://www.marxists.org/subject/greek-civil-war/in
I like the bit about concentration camps for Slav-speakers within Greek territory and their subsequent deportation - maybe some Macedonians remember this ?
This comment has been removed by the moderator because it contained foul, abusive or discriminating language
K.Nous.
Yes mate "Hellenic, Roman, and Byzxantine Cultural Imperio in Europe (greek name).
if you need proofs on that just visit the libraries of all civilized nations' Universities.
ne fait surtout pas "l'inteligent" mon vieux
You are a wise man: you finally recognize the superiority of Greece and its great history and cultural heritage are entire part of your knowledge nowadays. You cannot live without it I noticed.
I love the fact that a slavic country as Skopje is so poor that it is stealing a part of Greece's greatness to get some prestige in their unexistant history.
I love also the fact that Greece is the number one investor in Skopje and generously gives a hand to their miserable neighbours, so they can avoid the starvation. [...]
Read the full comment
I will love even more the fact that the game over is coming soon for Skopje: it will have to be renamed into "Northern Macedonia", and Greece will get the monopole of the undisputed original "Macedonia" name.
Let's celebrate while Christmas is approaching.
GMS - yes, Greece has quite some experience in forcible tuition of the Hellenic tongue to ethnic Slavs, especially in the mid-1940s, and you are right to remind us of this splendid Hellenic tradition of cultural imperialism.
Maybe there's a stock of the old 1945 Greek-language textbooks that could be re-used ? There are probably quite a few in Lerin/Florina, for a start.....
This comment has been removed by the moderator because it contained off-topic content
To Koinos Nous: "Molon Lave !"
"Koinos Nous" and now "Molon Lave", well, it seems I have to moderate your hellenophobic views, since you cannot resist to utilize the greek language in your posts. You just did there the first step for the recognition of greek as the official language of "Republic of Northern Macedonia".
Kindest Regards,
Greek Macedonia Supremacy
Sorry - I should have given my full source for the Slovenia/Croatia story, and indeed the full story itself rather than just one quote.
enia-finds-new-ways-to-block-croatia%27s-eu-bid/66 719.aspx
Here is the link to the full source:
http://www.europeanvoice.com/article/imported/slov
Well, as I posted earlier, always expect the unexpected !
Slovenia has decided to block Croatia's EU Accession again, for unspecified reasons (but we know it's not the border dispute !) This has prompted something of an outburst from the Swedes:
<< Carl Bildt, Sweden's foreign minister, said after Slovene foreign minister Žbogar's comments:
“We will not allow anyone to politically veto their neighbours, as this is not the way we work in Europe" >>
This Swedish statement could apply to Greece as much [...]
Read the full comment as to Slovenia.
Expect some last-minute action from the Swedish EU Presidency.....
Peter/Petraki
When i hear you people shoving around such nonsense the only thing that comes to my mind is
Why that Mitsotakis did not accept the Milosevic proposal.
leka nost.
Aries,did you read the report from Elefterotypia who bribes whom?.Who paid millions of dollars to the journalists Greek and Macedonian,including the former President of the Republic of Macedonia Crvenkovski,Frckovski and just reasontly Frckovski with Trifun secret meeting in a restaurant.I wrote on this issue long time ago,and I was right.Never the less,please read the repport that the bribes started since 1945 and intensified durring 1990 and former Greek PM Mitsotakis. Dr. Oz,I respect your oppinion greatly,thank you. To Macedonia always greece,you my dear fellow have no idea what you are talking.I wont bother giving you a reason for this comment. [...]
Read the full comment
K.Nous.
addendum.
SI CELA EST POUR CONTINUE TON DADA
D'ACCORD MAIS SI NON MON AMI FOURE
TA TETE DANS UNE CUVEE DE GLACE!
Koinos.nous
Did I touch any soft point????
in my address to Dr.Oz
sit back and relax.
GMS - We have the international right to use our own name /appellation for other countries , so we'll call it "Macedonia" for as long as we want to do so.
Until of course the Greek Navy (?)decides to blockade us, those parts of it that haven't been sold to the Turks or re-possessed by the Americans, that is.
Molon Lave ! - preferably in a rowing-boat !
We do not really care how your country uses to call Skopje nowadays, but I guarantee you it will soon have anymore the right to call it "Macedonia".
It will be forced to call it "Republic of Northern Macedonia" and for the greek region, well, you will spell it "MACEDONIA", the real and original name.
Thank you, Donald.
Best Regards,
GMS
to Greek Macedonia Supremacy - as regards calling the inhabitants of fYRoM "Macedonians", we'll do what we like, 'me old duck'.
My country recognises fYRoM as "Macedonia", so basically that's it.
You can huff and puff, and fume and subsume, but we're going to talk about "Macedonians", and there ain't nuffin you can do to stop us.
Molon Lave, or "up yours" as we say in more northern parts of Europe.
To Dr. Oz, your language is really insulting for all the members of this blogsite and I should even not give any attention. But I will try to be as diplomatic as I can for the few uncorrected things you mentionned:
1/Macedonian language: it cannot be accepted by Greece, since it is an artificial thing. Macedonian language simply never existed. Or if it ever existed in the Ancient Alexander Times (something we cannot prove at 100% historically wise), this language is lost and has little to do with the one actual of Skopje.
I [...]
Read the full comment am sorry, but this "macedonian" language is something you create and not something that already existed.
2/Far from me this curious idea you have that I ask for violence in Skopje. I am in favor of peace, but the dangerous position taken by Skopje will not create damages for Greece, but there are some possibilities it will explode in the face of the Skopjans.
3/Also the main problem is not to call Skopjans as "Macedonians". Geographically, Greece already accepted to call them "Macedonians" in the proposals of Nimetz such as "Republic of Northern Macedonia". But what Greece does not accept - and for obvious reasons - is that Skopje wants to monopolize the name "Macedonians" and its identity and ignore the fact that Macedonians are also Greek people called like this since thousand of years, just like Athenians, Spartans, etc.!
So, no, in those conditions, Greeks cannot accept it. The "Macedonian" name must be shared between both people, or it will not.
Dr Oz or whatever
<<<Aries your need for references is a need to justify Greece's existence, as you really feel it is modern Greece the needs to explain it's non homogeneous race!
>>>
This is a comment which has its roots deep in the "soviet disimformation system"
or the "Stazi"
its you the fool always evasive
whem cornered.
My well intentioned ill informed Greek friends (i.e. Aries, G.M.S, Jeffrey and others). I see the range of your oikoyeveia consists a journalist, lawyer, pretender, and fool, but what I don't see is any clear reason why Macedonians can't be called Macedonians!
Aries your need for references is a need to justify Greece's existence, as you really feel it is modern Greece the needs to explain it's non homogeneous race!
G.M.S your call for violence. doom and gloom in the midst of Greece's potential bankruptcy, shows that you feel that to back up a lie is [...]
Read the full comment to create havoc!
Jeffrey to make up an identity, shows us you are afraid of the truth and the repetitive nature of using a different name other then Macedonia, only fulfills your insecurity!
For the fools out there foul, demeaning and belittling language, only shows us that you are fools!
Listen Jeffery, it is one thing to be informed by studies, and personal experience of a culture but quite another by a movie. Our people need no British lessons as we have had them time and time again. If it is to our Macedonian identity you refer to then I strongly disagree with your mediocrity. We have just as much right to be called Macedonians as the Greeks have. Although I will always respect those among the Greeks who have Macedonian heritage I similarly expect that they (and you) respect us Macedonians who have a Slavic heritage. I have come [...]
Read the full comment to understand in the last few years that our identity is a shared one and as such support understanding. The people in multicultural Australia should know very well that identity is created by the very people who breathe it and not by the imperial motherlands. Reading at uni yesterday I discovered that your Australian identity was created in 1901 and that many of your countrymen hold close ties to their British ancestors. It is in the same way that our Macedonian people hold close what is dear to them, their ancestors in Europe.
Macedonia 4 the Macedonian Youth
Yeah Dr. Yugislav (Oz) I'm an Aussie who just happens to support my Macedonian friends who for years have invited our Aussie clan to their parties. There's nothing wrong with being Yugislav Doc. its just part of who you are. My Macedonian friends in melbourne reckon that there are heaps of Yugislavs who like to also call themselves Macedonians but got to far when they claim the most famous of all Macedonians Alexander the Great who spread Greek civilisation. It must be hard for you Yugislavs Doc. to have a neighbour like Greece with its famous history and all and [...]
Read the full comment your Yugislavs only have is Burek to be proud of which I found out mate is actually Turkish (maybe mate you also have turkish mix). Look Dr. Yugislav our Aussie culture is mainly British our forefathers colonised the place just like the Greeks under Alexander colonised the East. I guess the Yugislavs colonised somewhere but to be honest mate I have no idea where. I you remember the cult movie the 'wogboy' you Yugislavs apparently lived in chicken pens I mean mate not bad everyone has to start somewhere. The British like the Greeks, Romans all had empires in the past the Yugislavs seem only to have had Burek. By the way the Greeks also make Burek so it ain't only Yugislav food.
Come on Aussie, Come on, Come on.
To my dear friend and orthodox brother Koinos Nous, I think I can return you the comments below for your anti-hellenic/hellenophobic views expressed openly many times on this blog:
"If somebody like GMS posts something distinctly lurid and even apocalyptic (references to Sword of Damocles etc.), then others are quite entitled to take the posting at face value and respond appropriately.
If in doubt, take the plain sense of the words used. In this case GMS used words more appropriate to the Last Judgment or Dante's Inferno, but maybe his English isn't [...]
Read the full comment that good, so let us pardon him".
Best Regards as always,
GMS
comment.
f
Out of the myriad of classicists Donski picked up the late
Felix Jacobi
<<As a Jew I find myself in a difficult position. But as a historian I have long learned not to view historical events from a private perspective. I have voted for Adolf Hitler since 1927 and I am happy that in the year of the National Rising I am allowed to lecture on Augustus.
Because Augustus is the only figure in world history that may be compared to Adolf Hitler.
The rest is silent.
[...]
Read the full comment This is the correct link to UMD.
17 Dec 2009 ... Click here to read the new issue of UMD Voice: http://umdiaspora.org/images/UMDVoiceWinter2009.pd
To Peter and Nicola
f
The following is a litle example
of who is trying via Propaganda to misinform who.
The Lost Writings Of The Ancient Macedonians.
The Macedonian public knows very little about the
dozens of historians that have described the history of ancient
Macedonia in detail, and other states as well. Some are contained
in written manuscripts, but these material proofs are not readily
accessible to today’s reader. Unlike many numerous works by
ancient authors, Greek and others, these manuscripts are [...]
Read the full comment not
found on the internet, nor are they easily found in libraries.
However, a good portion of original historical materials,
written by ancient Macedonian historians, have been found
in the private collection of the German professor, Felix Jacoby
(1876 – 1959). A professor of classical philology in Kiel for 30
years, he resumed teaching at Oxford in 1939. During his career,
he collected several thousand fragments from texts by ancient
writers, most of which have been transmitted by successive
authors. Among these are fragments of the writings of 15 ancient
Macedonian historians. The Macedonian ethnic identity of these
historians is evident by the attachment of the identifier, “The
Macedonian”, added to the writer’s name, or by a particular
Macedonian topographic name denoting their place of birth.
Today Prof. Jacoby’s collection is accessible in a costly
electronic form. Access to this material was made possible when
Prof. Maria Kubaiska (in honour of her daughter Emilia Doneva
Kubaiska) kindly acquired it and placed it at the disposal of the
author of this article.
The initial survey of this material, containing fragments
from the lost works of more than 850 ancient historians, clearly
reveals the names of 15 Macedonians. Among them are: Marcia
from Pela, Kriton of Pieria, Anhang the Macedonian, Antigon
the Macedonian, Antioch the Aegean, Antipater the Macedonian,
Marcia from Philipi, Phillip from Amphipole, Pole the Aegean,
Ptolomy the son of Lag, and others. Prof. Jacoby’s collection
contains several hundred additional ancient historians. It is very
probable that some of these writers too are ethnic Macedonians,
an issue which has yet to be scientifically deciphered, since their
names have yet to be ethnically or geographically defined.
Regarding the contents of the lost works by ancient
Macedonian historians, we know that Prof. Jacoby carefully
compiled them from the preserved fragments of other ancient
writers These fragments provide compelling evidence that most
of these writers dealt with the history of ancient Macedonia. For
example, the ancient Macedonian historian Marcia from Pela,
who is described as a Macedonian aristocrat, is also referred to
as the one who created the “most detailed patriotic history of
his time” (“The Dictionary of the History of Ideas” Electronic
Text Center; University of Virginia Library, 2003).
The upcoming release of these materials to the public
will illuminate new findings in Macedonian historiography.
By Alexander Donski.
<< Mr Donski only reference is Felix Jacoby>>
Felix Jacoby (March 19, 1876 – November 10, 1959) was a German classicist and philologist. He is best known among classicists for his work Fragmente der griechischen Historiker, a collection of text fragments of ancient Greek historians.
Also significant is his long entry in the Realencyclopädie der Classischen Altertumswissenschaft on the Greek Historian Herodotus; written in 1913, this article established many of the questions that would come to dominate modern Herodotean scholarship.[1]
Jacoby was born in Magdeburg. Though he was expelled from the University of Kiel during the Gleichschaltung of Nazi Germany, Jacoby was one of a very small number of Jews who supported Adolf Hitler. He went so far as to make the startling comparison in 1933:
As a Jew I find myself in a difficult position. But as a historian I have long learned not to view historical events from a private perspective. I have voted for Adolf Hitler since 1927 and I am happy that in the year of the National Rising I am allowed to lecture on Augustus.
Because Augustus is the only figure in world history that may be compared to Adolf Hitler
He died in Berlin.[2]
. Dewald and Marincola, eds. (2006). The Cambridge Companion to Herodotus. Cambridge. pp. 1-2.
2. Safranski, Rüdiger. Martin Heidegger: Between Good and Evil. pp. 230
Retrieved from "[deleted link]"
17 Dec 2009 ... Click here to read the new issue of UMD Voice: http://umdiaspora.org/images/UMDVoiceWinter2009.pd
learn my friends
Aries - not sure your original point was taken (or was well-aimed !)
If somebody like GMS posts something distinctly lurid and even apocalyptic (references to Sword of Damocles etc.), then others are quite entitled to take the posting at face value and respond appropriately.
If in doubt, take the plain sense of the words used. In this case GMS used words more appropriate to the Last Judgment or Dante's Inferno, but maybe his English isn't that good, so let us pardon him.
Christmas spirit and all that [...]
Read the full comment (hang on, it isn't the Orthodox Christmas yet, is it ?)
K.Nous.
Yes mon ami when the Sun rises in the West.
But i see that my point is taken.
Aries mon ami - all I was doing was trying to paraphrase GMS's rather lurid words, not adding any interpretation of my own.
When GMS says:
<<But there we return again to Greece which hold the Sword of Damocles on the head of Skopje. I already predicted what happened for the december summit, so stay tuned on march to see what kind of damages the third VETO (officially the second) of Greece will create to Skopje... >>
...how else would YOU interpret it, other than as an imprecation [...]
Read the full comment or a 'prophecy of doom' ?
Sorry, but to me that is the plain sense of the words that GMS used.
(It is of course open to GMS to post back, to say that all he intended was Happy Christmas Greetings to the Macedonian People.)
K.Nous
<<<when you prophecy the doom of Macedonia thanks to Greece >>>
Wrong my dear fellow it is the idiotic most midly put statements of their top ranking officials
and all the subsequent tensiion
that we are after
A favor please don't play dumb
Read carefully my previous post"to whom it may concern"
Si jamais tu veu continuer ton petit dada avec Fyrom tu est libre majeur et vaccicne"
Merci.
Dear Peter - it is clearly a long time since you were in Poland. The instrumental case ("Polakiem") is always used with the verb 'to be' to indicate a temporary condition, including (by Polish usage) nationality: so "jestem Polakiem" = I am Polish, and "jestem Anglikiem" = I am English.
This can cause some difficulty in translation with plural nouns, often placed at the start of the sentence (Polish journalists seem to think this is good "style"). As in:
"Zatrudnianymi obcokrajowcymi robotkinami sa wykorzystani obecnie w Szczebreczynie miedzy chrzasczcami." (which combined both [...]
Read the full comment uses of the instrumental case, i.e. both with verb and with preposition.
A better idea of all this can be gained from one of the main Polish newspapers (Rceczpospolita):
http://www.rzeczpospolita.pl/rzeczpospolita.html
The example text here gives several examples of the use of the instrumental case with the verb "to be" that I describe.
Z szacunkiem
To Koinos Nous,my dear fellow,I speak polish.When you say that person is Polak you identifie the individual.When you say Polakiem woukd be used as in"I was fishing with"Even though I have left Poland for over 55 years,I still can communicate very well.This is my third language I speak.I speak,Macedonian,Polish,Greek and English and limited Russian.Please, domt give me any lessons in Polish.Did you read the 130 million dollars Mitsotakis spent to haras the Macedonian people? its on this site,take a good look.It seams most of the comments are about Macedonia from the Greeks.I wonder why! For starters it is because it [...]
Read the full comment burnes Greeces behind for all the fabrications they themselves created.It also incudes the Bulgarians.Why are you both fighting over Macedonia that does not belong to you? Can you settle that between the two of you so we can at least fight one of you?.To me it looks like both of you must love macedonias history,but it is not yours.You people are so deep in a hole that you cannot reach its top to get out of it.Whe I was still in Northern Greece (Macedonia) we were not allowed to speak our own Macedonian language,are you not allowed to speak your language wherever you are? Our streets on Danforth are even in Greek,a whole identity of people in the Greek Macedonia are bot even allowed to baptise their children in Macedonian,figure that out." E mythiki Eleniki Demokratia ene mono mythos".That is why you people went after the Macedonian history that never belonged to you,and it will destroy Greece politicly and economicly."Do widzenia e wesolyh swiat"last word read "sviont".
GMS - when you prophecy the doom of Macedonia thanks to Greece :
<< Its geostrategic situation in the Balkans is quite artificial with a very composite population and the only way to consolidate its position as a state is determined by an hypothetic entrance in the EU and NATO family. NO EU and no NATO, the artificial "macedonian" identity is very fragile.
But there we return again to Greece which hold the Sword of Damocles on the head of Skopje. I already predicted what happened for the december summit, so stay tuned on [...]
Read the full comment march to see what kind of damages the third VETO (officially the second) of Greece will create to Skopje... >>
...this is about the most irresponsible thing I have heard said since George W Bush invaded I-raq !
What on earth does Greece gain by de-stablising a whole volatile region, all because of a name ? It sounds like one of Aesop's more dire and dreadful fables.
If Greece really wants to let the Albanians and the Turks in to "fill the vacuum" of a vanished Macedonia (which in itself is no real threat to Greece), then that is a Pyrrhic Victory worthy of classical times.
It all sounds as if the Americans are right to keep Camp Bondsteel going, if your thoughts are at all typical of a major strand in Greek politics (which I hope they are not, but which I fear they might be.)
By the way - changing topic slightly - Slovenia resents intensely being labelled as a "Balkan" country. It is an Alpine country, and very proud of it, and is 1000 km from the Balkans proper. Any Slovene will tell you that "Europe ends at Dobova"
( For those whose knowledge of Slovene geography may be less than mine, 'Dobova' is the main railway border crossing between Slovenia and Croatia, 20 km from Zagreb.)
To whom it may Concern
The Australian Macedonian Advisory Council (AMAC) is appalled by the latest statements made from FYROM´s President Gjorge Ivanov. According to MINA news, President Ivanov controversially stated "We will not cave under any pressure to change our name or identity just to be a part of the European Union. We've lived this (hi)story many times before, not again. Whatever the outcome of the talks in Brussels, Macedonia (FYROM) will stay right here" threatening to remain outside the EU as the ´Republic of Macedonia´. Ivanov continues: "Europe unfortunately still has leaders who allow [...]
Read the full comment to be carried away by someone's petty interests and hidden agenda.. We see the absence of vision at the EU".
These statements have revealed FYROM´s ongoing disregard for reaching a compromise to the name dispute with Greece, that has delayed it entry into the EU and NATO. AMAC hopes FYROM will change its current hardline policy, and not continue to insult the European Union and its member states, but instead to tackle the real issue at hand.
Australian Macedonian Advisory Council (AMAC)
To m.o.g.
mi to paraxezeis to pragma blaptei
pio poli apo oti ofeli.
kaatalavenis ti sou lego
Eyxaristw.
This comment has been removed by the moderator because it contained foul, abusive or discriminating language
Nicola
What about The American Chronicle
and Risto Stefov.
Name the source soucre of this Document my friend.
This comment has been removed by the moderator because it contained Обиди, дискриминация, срещу журналисти
GREECE PAID JOURNALISTS TO PROMOTE 'GREEKNESS' OF MACEDONIA
National.
During 1989 to 1993 from secret funds of the Greek Foreign Ministry headed by Andonis Samaras, Greek journalists received $130 million dollars (US) to promote the "greekness of Macedonia"!
Although these funds were originally intended for external promotion (read disinformation), they, according to the testimony of former Prime Minister Constantinos Mitsotakis, ended up in pockets of Greek journalists.
- All of the funds were in black plastic bags, like those black [...]
Read the full comment trash bags you see, filled only with 5,000 bank notes. There were never checks, it was always cash. The money was mainly for propaganda over Macedonia's name, but instead of going abroad, this propaganda was directed towards the inside, our country - said Mitsotakis in front of a commission summoned to clarify the case.
The payment of huge lump sums coincided with the independence of Macedonia and the strengthening of internal propaganda and the so called "macedoniazation" in Greece.
This scandal, which was first actualized by Athens based Eleftherotypia was burried in 1994 though it re-emerged once again after Andonis Samaras was elected as leader of New Democracy, which suffered a defeat by PASOK in the fall elections.
Samaras had been dismissed in 1992 as a Foreign Minister by then-Prime Minister Mitsotakis, who, like Papandreou has now himself assumed the foreign ministry.
The investigation was completed without conclusions. These secret payments were investigated by Mitsotakis’ successor, the Greek Foreign Ministry, Government and current president Karolos Papoulias. The Greek Government issued no information and closed the investigation in the name of "higher national interests".
The dilemma whether the Greek Government bribed journalists as well as publishers across the country to publish material that would promote Athens’ agenda hangs in the air.
Andonis Samaras publicly acknowledged large amounts of money were paid to publishers, journalists, even local officials, adding all money were used for “national useful purposes”.
It is indicative that all documents were destroyed prior to Mitsotakis’ takeover of Greece’s FM from Samaras - on April 13, 1993. Samaras himself attested that the documents were destroyed on March 17 that year. The only thing left are the total amounts and recorded statements - the money were distributed by (Manolis Kalamidas close to Samaras and Dimitris Avramopoulos, a man of trust to Mitsotakis).
The scandal itself surfaced following the collapse of the Mitsotakis government in October 10, 1993. To make things more interesting, the Foreign Minister of the new government of PASOK - after Mitsotakis and Samaras - was none other than the current present President of Greece Karolos Papoulias!
Papoulias engaged a United States attorney, former judge, who practically discovered the secret funds. The investigation never revealed the names of journalists and news organizations that were at the receiving end of these payouts.
According to documents from the investigation on March 10, 1994 Mitsotakis before the Commission confirmed that there were secret funds from the MFA, adding funds also became available from banks and other large companies. Since taking office, Mitsotakis described the situation in the MFA as "bad" adding “presently we have only 40-48 million drachmas (220 thousand dollars), while large sums of money are directed to unknown persons without the appropriate paperwork”.
Mitsotakis explained the funds were distributed by the Minister, and controlled by three member commission appointed by the Minister. All documents, if any, were destroyed twice annually.
The former Greek prime minister asked Samaras to explain where the money went. Samaras never provided a concise answer, saying the money were spent on “Advertisement”.
GMS.
There is nothing simplistic when
and where Bondsteel is involved
Greece is a part of Southeastern
Europe along with Albania, Bulgaria,Fyrom,Serbia,Bosnia,
Croatia,Slovenia.
<<<there we return again to Greece which hold the Sword of Damocles on the head of Skopje. I already predicted what happened for the december summit, so stay tuned on march to see what kind of damages the third VETO (officially the second) of Greece will create to Skopje...>>
consider the system as a whole first.then make that grandiose statement of yours.
[...]
Read the full comment /> Btw have you heard of Davutoglu's "pax Ottomana" project Within Fyrom,Bosnia,Albania.
that makes things even more complex in geopolitical terms and nature
Cheers.
Dr Oz.
There is a french saying "Idees
preconcues ,il ne faut pas attribuer aux autres ses pensees "
as for your classical evasive technique when cornered quite amusing i.e
<< , if I give you references you will just try to refute them in your own twisted uncanny ways.
>>
come on my lad grow up a little,
afraid of criticism on your
sources sit back and enjoy the dogfight without being part of it,
AND MOST OF ALL LEARN!!!!!!
[...]
Read the full comment /> Cheers
to Aries:
"I am afraid that the only threat right now is the political section of the KLA residing in Fyrom.
for the time being as long as Camp Bondsteel eists "aux alentours" (in the vincinity) no major action
will take place so the only deastabilisation efforts if any taken will remain in the political realm".
>>>I am afraid this view is too simplistic and quite subjective. I would not be so categoric with this statement if I was you. Skopje is "officieusement" in deep troubles both politically, [...]
Read the full comment economically and ... historically. Its geostrategic situation in the Balkans is quite artificial with a very composite population and the only way to consolidate its position as a state is determined by an hypothetic entrance in the EU and NATO family. NO EU and no NATO, the artificial "macedonian" identity is very fragile.
But there we return again to Greece which hold the Sword of Damocles on the head of Skopje. I already predicted what happened for the december summit, so stay tuned on march to see what kind of damages the third VETO (officially the second) of Greece will create to Skopje...
Yes, it is quite obvious it is you, Koinos Nous. You would play very well the role of Louis de Funès character: Don Salluste de Bazan.
By the way, I would please you to stay on topic for once, si ton cerveau d'arriéré pouvait enregistrer çà...Thank you.
My dear friend Aries , if I give you references you will just try to refute them in your own twisted uncanny ways. As for simple emotional arguments, that seems the only way for you and other Greeks seem to understand, and by the way it seems to irk that mixed Greek blood of yours!
Les personnes simples ont besoin de reponses simples!
Of that Bulgarian or Serbian Language you speak of, is that the turkic language of the orginal Bulgars and Serbs or the slavic one that seems to encompass millions of people and territory [...]
Read the full comment that covers 1/6 of the world! So in essence that would make his idea the correct one.
To my new friend Le Cervoise, je pense que vous n'aimez la biere!!
As for Jeffrey, Jeffrey, Jeffrey my sad illogical Aussie friend, what can I say, it's seems you do not understand sarcasm and by your repetitious nature, only can spout out the same Greek line, but then your just an Aussie Greek pretending to be an English Aussie, isn't this fun mate!!
GMS - when you say:
<<If I am not there to elevate this debate, I am afraid this blog will loose its value and seriousness >>
...one asks oneself the question who has the most << delusions of grandeur /
folie de grandeur >> amongst us all / parmi nous ?
I think the answer is fairly obvious....
To GMS.
I am afraid that the only threat right now is the political section of the KLA residing in Fyrom.
for the time being as long as Camp Bondsteel eists "aux alentours" (in the vincinity) no major action
will take place so the only deastabilisation efforts if any taken will remain in the political realm.
Merci pour votre attention.
Greece’s Deputy Foreign Minister Dimitris Droutsas. yes big mouth is an albanian wannabe greek.
Dnevnik: Athens sharpens rhetoric towards Macedonia
Skopje. Athens sharpened the rhetoric over the name dispute with Macedonia, Macedonian Dnevnik “Macedonian identity is party of every single Greek citizen. We are born and die with this identity”, said Greece’s Deputy Foreign Minister Dimitris Droutsas. According to him, his party has presented its clear position to Greek citizens and it is not afraid to assume responsibility.
“We should defend the national red line in terms of the name for international [...]
Read the full comment use”, Droutsas remarked.
Head of the EU mission in Macedonian, Erwan Fouere, on the other hand, declared that time does not work to Macedonia’s favor and thus a solution should be found to the name dispute.
“Over the next months, it is important to establish a national consensus among all political parties”, Fouere said.
To Dr. Yugislav in Oz if you think mate that just because our Aussie teachers taught us history the way it is and you think they were Greek well just shows how dumb some of your people are. Believe me when most Aussies talk about Yugislavs they know who you are so I can say that I speak for most of our Aussies. Right On! And by the way mate English is our mother language because most of us have British ancestry just like you guys all have a Yugislav ancestry. I reckon you guys here in Oz have decided [...]
Read the full comment to call yourselves somethin different to your Yugislavs names because of the negative Yugislav history and want the Greek name instead. Mate if you ever watch the cult movie 'wogboy" you'll see that all the ethnic people in Oz are represented the Greeks, Italians, and your Yugislav people Doc. So why are you trying to change your Yugislav name now after so many decades. Mate, You should maybe call yourselves New Yugislavs, First Yugislavs, or how about this one Native Yugislavs. I reckon the world is big enough for all of us mate so you should be able to come up with a name which doesn't steal other peoples history. The Yugislavs of Oz are not that many so what;s the big deal. If you want a new name go to Yugislavia or anywhere where they like to call you both Yugislavs and anything else you want. You know Dr. Yugislav if Alexander spread a Yugislav language in history you wouldn't have this problem with the real Macedonians today who in the history books say all spoke Greek thus showing they were a Greek tribe. Tough Luck Dr. Yugislav maybe in your next life the hero can speak Yugislav. Maybe you have someone like Lupcho the GReat, Vlade the blade or Zoran the Terrible they sound heroic what do you reckon mate. Going for a surf mate.
Come On Aussie, Come On, Come On.
I have nothing against "les jeux de mots", if they are not turned in the silly goal to ridiculize ("tourner en dérision" if you prefer in french) your interlocutor, which was the case many times in your posts and the ones of Koinos Nous. So I do not who is the most arrogant person between me and you both guys then... Anyway, let's not hijack this topic any longer.
The albanian minority is a concrete problem, because there is no Skopjan unity. Also the precedent case of Kosovo can be repeated with FYROM, even more because [...]
Read the full comment Greece does not let this fragile country in the EU and NATO. So the more Skopje is waiting to change their name, the more risk they encounter. Hope this reasoning is crystal clear. Thank you.
With deep respect,
GMS
To GMS.
Telling you the truth my friend
nobody really missed your arrogant manners if you cannot cope with "les jeux de mots" it's not our fault.
If you want to discuss your fears on the destabilisation in the region due to Kossovo and the Ablanian minority of Fyrom then we can proceed on he discussion.
thank you for your attention.
I have signed off for one day and from what I noticed the debate by Koinos Nous and Aries is as always going nowhere. The last 10 posts I have read are not only out of subject, but totally pointless, Messieurs, with ridiculous comments in french, greek & other languages unknown by the other users, so they cannot understand they are insulted in a undirect/ashamed manner.
If I am not there to elevate this debate, I am afraid this blog will loose its value and seriousness, just like the ridiculous positions of the Skopjans about the [...]
Read the full comment name dispute that you, Koinos Nous and Aries, are represented in a disguised(but unmasked) form.
I would like to speak for once about the critical political instability of Skopje which is about to grow more and more til march and which reminds me old dangerous events of this decade in this region...
Aries - many thanks /un grand merci.
I was always taught that "absolument" was too upper-class (bon chic-bon genre ou BCBG) en France, so we all used "vachement" instead, especially with "chouette", hence the English satire of "cowly owl" (vachement chuette).
Doubtless GMS - from his enormous personal repertoire of "Les Dictons" will prove us - and the rest of France - wrong !
K.Nous.
Que faire mon ami.
ou voi-tu le "vachement" le mot
adequat est "absolument".
i will translate what i said
in Greek.
"that makes you well over 65 so
enjoy a cup of nice Chamomele tea
and drop the Dandramanis dictum and please do come up with something new you are being too
much repetative".
to Peter - if you are referring to a Polish individual in European English, he is a "Pole", not a "Polak". To do otherwise is thought very impolite, by Poles and other Europeans alike.
"He" is only called a "Polak" in the Polish language, and then only in the "nominative" case. The most common case used is in fact the "instrumental", so to say 'he is a Pole' you would say "On jest Polakiem". The plural is "Polacy", and never "Polaks".
For the feminine gender, the nominative is "Polka", and the instrumental [...]
Read the full comment "Polke", with a nasal accent under the 'e' that my keyboard won't do. The plural is "Polkie", though "Polacy" is in fact often used as well.
The instrumental plural for both genders (always used) is "Polakami"
Hope this is helpful
Z szacunkiem
Aries, mon ami, what are you saying ? Un instant de reflexion, peut-etre ? Lui, peut-etre il est vachement idiot, mais faut pas le dire aussi directement.
Also, for some of us, it's easier to read Greek in the Greek alphabet than it is in transliteration into Latin script, as also in Cyrillic too.
Peter
Demosthenes was a Athenian statesman and one of the most hailed orators of Antiquity rivaled by Cicero of Rome only.
Demosthenes was an hoplite at thwe Battle of Chaeronia.
hope that is helpfull futher
you can "read" at Wikipaedia
under Demosthenes
Peter
Were in the devil did you see Dr oz
to my last post.
you say
<<Yes,I am in the diaspora since I was 11 year old,but never forget who I am.I have traveled to the Republic of Macedonia and in Northern Greece to my birth place.Let me tell you a very sad thing;my birth place used to have 600 citizens in 1948,today there are 5.The houses are crumbling down,the landscape has changed,but my hart is still there.I never new the Greek language,we spoke Macedonian>>
So according to you "eisai [...]
Read the full comment pano apo 65 xronwn agapite mou giati den pineis to xamomilaki kai afhse ta alla dandramanides kai allous telos pantwn. allaxe tropario olo
ta idia kai ta idia mas les .
TO macedonia always greece. I am proud Macedonian and speak the slavic language. It is too bad,you cannot understand the difference betwwen identity and language.Please go get some education.I see you speak English,are an Enlishman,or that I speak Polish,does that make me a Polak,does the Americans english speaking are they English? What is there you dont understand?Are the Russians slaves?They speak the slavic language!Why dont you get lost,or write something real subject,say like the battle of Chaeronia between the Macedonians and the Hellens in 338 BC.What Demosthenes write for the fallen Hellens.I wonder why he ignored the fallen Macedonians.
[...]
Read the full comment />
Well, given that we have Dr Oz telling us that:
<<So my Aussie friend, do not try and talk for all Aussies and stop drinking that fine Australian beer that seems to be clouding your mind! >>
and we have Makedonia Olways Greece telling us that:
<<stop believe the tito mythos!!it wass for politic ways and not because you are "makedonian" visit vergina too see!!!!! >>
in which (in so far as understand his fractured English) he seems to be promoting excellent Greek "Mythos" [...]
Read the full comment pivo/beer, should we not convene a meeting of regular contributors to this column to a:
"JOINT GREEK/AUSTRALIAN/MACEDONIAN BEER FESTIVAL"
...to be held in Sofia at a time and place that suits the organisers best (my bet would be the Irish Pub near Alabin, though.)
Dr.Oz,your answer to Aries is perfect.The problem falls in education that is;if you educate yourselve in Greece,there can never be the same as in any other place on this planet.Greece still believes in the myth that they are the only people on this planet. Sasha,for the first time we agree on something.As I have said before,I respect you for who you are,but politicly and historicly we differ.Yes,I am in the diaspora since I was 11 year old,but never forget who I am.I have traveled to the Republic of Macedonia and in Northern Greece to my birth place.Let me tell you [...]
Read the full comment a very sad thing;my birth place used to have 600 citizens in 1948,today there are 5.The houses are crumbling down,the landscape has changed,but my hart is still there.I never new the Greek language,we spoke Macedonian.As far as the Bulgarian language goes,here one Greek high ranking representative at the League of Nations in 1925 said"The Macedonian language is neither Serbian nor Bulgarian,it is a different language that is on its own"
Dr.Oz,your answer to Aries is perfect.The problem falls in education that is;if you educate yourselve in Greece,there can never be the same as in any other place on this planet.Greece still believes in the myth that they are the only people on this planet. Sasha,for the first time we agree on something.As I have said before,I respect you for who you are,but politicly and historicly we differ.Yes,I am in the diaspora since I was 11 year old,but never forget who I am.I have traveled to the Republic of Macedonia and in Northern Greece to my birth place.Let me tell you [...]
Read the full comment a very sad thing;my birth place used to have 600 citizens in 1948,today there are 5.The houses are crumbling down,the landscape has changed,but my hart is still there.I never new the Greek language,we spoke Macedonian.As far as the Bulgarian language goes,here one Greek high ranking representative at the League of Nations in 1925 said"The Macedonian language is neither Serbian nor Bulgarian,it is a different language that is on its own"
too peter!you are slavs for sure!!!like russian,serbian,bulgarian,like all slavs.if you feal more bulgarian,or serbian or i dont now???this is not or problem!!!!you are not makedonian my friend!!!for sure!!!!you live <<back>>your realy nation!why????stop believe the tito mythos!!it wass for politic ways and not because you are <<makedonian>>visit vergina too see!!!!!
too peter!you are slavs for sure!!!like russian,serbian,bulgarian,like all slavs.if you feal more bulgarian,or serbian or i dont now???this is not or problem!!!!you are not makedonian my friend!!!for sure!!!!you live <<back>>your realy nation!why????stop believe the tito mythos!!it wass for politic ways and not because you are <<makedonian>>visit vergina too see!!!!!
Dr Oz.
FOR YOUR REFERENCE
<<<The Slavic language he [Delchev] spoke and the one spoken here now is closer to Bulgarian than to Serbian. But on account of Tito's break with Stalin, the Yugoslav government, encouraged by the Serbs, promoted a separate ethnic and linguistc identity for Macedonian, in order to sever any emotional link between the local population and the one next door in Bulgaria >>>
[Robert D. Kaplan, Balkan Ghosts, p.60]
Dr Oz.
Give us your <<references>> of your simplistic arguments and
pure revisionistic views
because the exposition you give here is an exposition of a brainwashed mind nothing more nothing less.
My man, Jeffrey of Oz, your childish and simplistic approach to the Macedonian name question beckons a response.
I will try to answer you as simply as I can.
You speak English in Oz, why are you not English then?
As you state there are Greeks, Italians,Bulgarians, etc, in Oz, so why are you not English then?
As for your history lessons presumably you had a Greek teacher?
You note that since WWII that somebody told you (probably another Greek) that Yugoslavs were known as such, well I guess your [...]
Read the full comment Greek friend forgot to tell you that Yugoslavia broke up in the 1990's, and I assume you don't read do get any facts right!
As for your statement of Greeks calling themselves Macedonians for centuries, Macedonia was known as Northern Greece before the 1980's and only the small minority of Greeks living in Macedonia called themselves that, prior to the great exchange!
So my Aussie friend, do not try and talk for all Aussies and stop drinking that fine Australian beer that seems to be clouding your mind!
Well, GMS, don't try to get out of it so easily. You yourself posted to me only a few days ago:
<<and I seriously doubt your feet touched the territory of Slovenia... >>
so you can hardly complain if I authoritatively contradict you !
I regard most of the rest of your statements as demonstrating the same lack of veracity on your part.
As regards the future of the Greece/Macedonia issue, bear in mind two things:
(a) economic issues always [...]
Read the full comment prevail in the end (Karl Marx). Nobody should gain any joy or pleasure from the current Greek economic crisis, as I have posted elsewhere, but it may dictate events in 2010 more than you think.
(b) as any MFA official knows, pure "Murphy's Law" (or "Sod's Law") - "whatever can go wrong, will go wrong, and when you least expect it" - applies to international relations. In other words, always expect the entirely unpredictable !
I can't believe I'm going to agree with my diaspora friend Peter for once.
Yes you are absolutley right that we will never lose our Macedonian identity but you must also be careful of just how objective and credible your sources are.
Greece will never be able to change our identity as it is a part of the earth we walk on. But similarly Peter we should be careful in what an identity means to each and everyone of us. For example just as you claim the Greeks are fabricating history there are many in our [...]
Read the full comment quarters who are doing the exact same e.g. antiquisation politics. In other words we can't cry foul about the others if there are those among us who are doing the very exact same. The Greeks can claim whatever they like but they can never claim our identity. Our identity is now part of the global fabric and as such has created a momentum of its own so don't fret with frail politics Peter and point your nose to the future (not the past). Whether you like it or not there will always be different views of our identity. But it is certain that as a believer in Delchev and his doctrines of our Slavic pride you my friend will always have the view of antiquisationism and there is where we part ways although as Macedonians our identity remains in tact, one a proud Macedonian of Slavic heritage the other (yourself) proud of some romantic heritage linked to Al. Veliki (possilbly a Greek tribe).
Macedonia 4 the Macedonian Youth Forever.
I just came across an article that says "Greece paid 130 million to promote the "greekness of Macedonians"It is no surprise,Mitsotakis revealed that they paid publishers and journalists to promote the extinction of the Macedonian identity.It is so absurd when the former PM Mitsotakis saying they were paying in black trash bags in bank notes(cash) so there cannot be traced.Is this State a member of EU and NATO can resort to this absurd way to extinguish a newly indeoendent State? What is with EU harboring a member State like Greece?why these same EU are demanding good neighborly relations from the [...]
Read the full comment Republic of Macedonia and for that matter from all aspiring States who want to join this institution? Is Mr.Barroso a realist or just propping up his friends like Greece? How can the EU ask Macedonia to relinguish its identity that exists for centuries.Even the Greek intelectuals are againts Greece itself.Here is professor Skoularikis statement on the name issue "The Greek arguments are not convincing because it is a fundamental right of all people to freely choose their name. We insist that our neighbor has no right to use the name Macedonia,ignoring the fact that during the 19th and 20th century there was a wider region called Macedonia".EU and you anti-Macedonians take note,Macedonia will and cannot change its identity.It identifies who we are and come from.We are Macedonians who have no connection to the Greeks or the ancient Hellens who have disapeared long time ago.Greece, stop the absurd fabrication of history!
I am sorry, Messieurs Koinos Nous and Aries (as far I know I communicated with K.N and not with you, karagiozi), but your aggressive comments about my person are not only uninteresting, but also out of subject. The one to be insulted here by two men at the same time is ME. I would ask you both to keep your calm if you are unable to accept the reality of the facts which is... (let's return on topic)
>The future of Skopje is in jeopardy and to be more precised, in the hands of Greece. In 6 months [...]
Read the full comment there will be a second deadline for Skopje to find a compromise about the name with Greece. If Skopje refuses to do it, then it will loose its credibility towards the EU members, showing any good will in resolving bilateral issues. So there will be no escape.
I would appreciate we talk about this subject and not about silly-childish translations to prove if X or Y has ever been in Slovenia...
Thank you. Trying to be as diplomatic as possible as always.
Best Regards,
GMS
Aries - a very fair point, but none of us likes being insulted (probably GMS likes it less than most !)
I know Sloveni(j)a like the back of my hand, whereas he can probably just about find out where is it with the aid of a map.
K.Nous
Tale it easy
on ne saute pas du sublime au ridicule.
Well, GMS, old man, I'll make it just a bit easier for you. Here is the link for the Slovene National Dormouse Museum :
;cat=41
http://postojna-cave.com/?lang=en&mono=107&
Oops, sorry - I forgot that you had (you say) been there many times and that I had not. A thousand pardons......meanwhile, please still try to link the name of the castle with the Slovenian word for "snow"......
Prosim...
Gms.
There is an old which goes something like that
"It is often better to be sought
a fool ,than open one's mouth
an remove all doubts"
in french it goes
dans le doute abstiens toi.
Well, well done GMS for avoiding the question once again (very possibly because you yourself have never been to Slovenia and do not know the answer !)
Clue: the Dormouse Museum is in the south of the country and its name may have something to do with 'snow'.
(How much easier can I make it for one of your masterly and patronising superior intelligence and Central European knowledge ?)
Slovenia is not the one balkanic country to back Greece for the name dispute. Serbia did it too and Bulgaria, even unofficially, is upset by Skopje. I am afraid therefore the multi-gravitational problems of FYROM are showing that good relationships with their neighbours is far from being a priority for them...
So no, Skopje will not enter EU and maybe never if Albanians...
GMS - once again you exemplify the old saying that "Ignorance Is Bliss". Slovenia is a pleasant and civilised country - and if you'd been to the nationwide annual Gornja Radgona agricultural fair, as I have, you would know this.
Two Slovene questions for you (I'll put them in English as this is an English-language site):
(a) what is commemorated in the town of Ptuj ? (Clue: could be more than one item)
(b) when is the national dormouse-hunting season, and where is the National Dormouse Museum ? [...]
Read the full comment
For a bonus prize, what is the correct Latin name for the Slovene dormouse ?
Come on Gazza its not that bad being a Yugislav mate. All you need is a bit of good ol' Aussie education and you'll see that there are thousands of Yugislavs in Oz. If you ever watch the cult movie classic WogBoy you'll see that your countrymen Gazza are part of the ethnic community together with Greeks, Italians, etc. Whats wrong anyway with being a Yugislav especially because most Aussies can't tell the difference mate. Let me put it a another way mate, if you are not Yugislavs why do you continue to have that name in your FYROM. I [...]
Read the full comment mean anyone who wouldn't call themselves a Yugislav would have left that out but you dudes leave it in. You know something Gazza your bloody well lucky that you live in our civilised Oz otherwise you Yugislavs would be having to find another rich land to go to maybe USA. Take care buddy.
Come on Aussie, come on, come on.
To our friend Jeffery. You cannot even spell the term "Yugoslav" correctly. That despatches your view or opinion to oblivion. There is no longer a country called or recognised globally as "Yugoslavia", including by Greece. Ask your (Athenian) government to consult its fellow EU member countries if necessary. Enjoy your garlic-infused souvlaki buddy
Whats up Nik can't handle your Yugislav background mate. Greeks are Greeks and Yugislavs are Yugislavs. So tell me smart man why did you wait so many years to decide to call yourself macedonian in Oz. I was told that since WWII all your people here have called themselves Yugislavs. The problem mate is you are a racist mob here in Oz the poor Greeks who have had their Macedonian identity for yonks are now your little targets. You know what mate if you had half a brain you'd know that Yugislavs could never have a Greek name because I [...]
Read the full comment was told here by your own countrymen that many of you Yugislavs claim a Bulgarian language and have a Bulgarian history. So why is it all so confusing. For most of us Aussies your still just the typical Yugislavs around town just like in the Wogboy movie, one of the best movies out about the Yugislavs, Greeks and Italians. In that movie they called the guy Tony the Yugislav so whats so different about you Nik you are for sure a Yugislav who just wants to be part of the Greek tribe the Macedonians. I mean I'm no historian but I do remember at school that we were told that Alexander the Great was king of the Macedonians a Greek tribe and together with other Greeks conquered India. I guess it must be envy that your Yugislav people who don't speak Greek, look Greek or even had any knowledge of civilisation would today want to own a Greek name. Don't worry mate there are heaps of Yugislavs around and not all of yous are united so good luck. As I read here half of your countrymen aren't sure who they are. My guess is you are Yugislavs made from Bulgarian origins with a Greek, Serbian, Albanian and Turkish overlay, thats the best I can do.
Come on Aussie, come on, come on.
To Koinos Nous: "Its a good paper and a good site, but it does help to know Slovene, which luckily I do".
>>>Is it just me or is it another of your "bad tasty" april fools? This newspaper is one of the best of the Balkans and I seriously doubt your feet touched the territory of Slovenia... When you are unable to contradict the reality of the facts, your arguments definitely lack of imagination.
Sorry to inform you once again that Slovenia backed Greece for the name dispute and the words do [...]
Read the full comment not come from me, but from the Slovenian government...
K.Nous
Thanks for appreciating.
Aries - you're right in your posting some way below about the Catholic Church in Prague using the Old Slavonic rite. The Church still exists - in the Stare Mesto between the Powder Tower and the Old Town Square. I've forgotten the dedication, but the words in Czech are "Staro Slovenski Chram", with the double Cross of Orthodoxy.
Well done on your scholarship !
GMS - sorry, your earlier story about Slovenia supporting Greece appears to be quite unfounded. I have gone through all the current pages and online archives in the main Slovenia (www.vecer.si/) newspaper, and there is no trace
of any mention.
Its a good paper and a good site, but it does help to know Slovene, which luckily I do.
And the US put the pressure on the shoulders of Skopje:
"Washington recommends the name “Republic of North Macedonia” to be carried as resolution of the name dispute between Athens and Skopje, Greek Elftherotypia newspaper writes. The U.S., which has said several times it is about time Athens and Skopje, to close the name issue, are now pressing the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia (FYROM) to demonstrate good neighbor relations with Greece by adopting the name “Republic of North Macedonia” as the specifying of the comprehensiveness of the usage to be left for the future".
Periclis.
<<pacet steal you born pacet steal you die!!>>>
<<!!!!sirius historic IN fyrom have fun with this <<makedonian>>nation!!!and because fyrom is one fasistic nation!!all this people is <<back>>we look the future >>>
what in the hell do you mean
my friend.
This comment has been removed by the moderator because it contained foul, abusive or discriminating language
nicola
Perhaps this link will persuade you on the proportion of Latins in Italy at that time. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magna_Graecia
i am very glad to help you with your education
What brillant mind did give you the infos on 2013 and the Bucarest treaty really i would like some
serious references about it.
Wrong again albanians are only 22% to 25% the good news there are macedonian albanians called tosk or toski the lesser are called ghegs, now for the bad news there is more albanians in greece than in present macedonia.
Albanians make up around one quarter of the population in Macedonia, and according to opinion polls, many would "rather trade the name of the country in return for a speedy EU and NATO accession than the Macedonian majority."
Jeffery, or maybe Jefferypoulos a pretend aussie who's really greekI see it right through your biased comments, now read some facts. (That Greece didn't name their northern region 'Macedonia' until the 1980s.) Greece is most afraid of having to face the Fact, (Greece has only occupied part of Macedonia since 1913.) Greece agenda will continue until there is no more Macedonians and Republic of Macedonia. But The Burcarest Treaty Ends In 2013, And Think Greece Seeing Red. and Billions in Compensations.
Listen up people can someone tell me why the Yugislavs in Oz want to be known as macedonians. To us mate Macedonians have always been Greek so how do you get these triangle headed. dark hair Yugislavs in Oz to become a Greek tribe. Its go me buggered. This Dr. Oz dude is certainly no Aussie by the sound of his heavy accent LOL, he sounds pretty Yugislav to me. Maybe The Yugislavs have a need to call themselves somethin different to get more global handouts. As far as Oz goes Yugislavs have always been known like that forever so [...]
Read the full comment how come there is this sudden change. Why did you call yourself Yugislavs forever and now you want to call yourself a Greek name. I dunno what this is all about except that there are heaps of Yugislavs in Oz and heaps of Greeks but it seems to be that it is the Greeks who have been calling themselves Macedonians forever while the Yugislavs started about 10-15 years ago. Strange or what.
Come on Aussie come on, come on.
I am sorry to make you angry, GMS and Aries, but I just copies articles which describe the reality of the situation and comments coming from Skopjan officials. The words do not come from my mouth, so I do not know what is wrong with that.
If you have difficulties to accept the real transcript facts, then I am afraid the problem is internal, that means it comes from you both.
Best Regards,
GMS
I entirely agree with Aries - GMS, stop "being Balkan". Civil unrest in Macedonia is the last thing that the region needs, whatever the 'rights and wrongs' over the name issue.
GMS.
Stop thinking like a school-boy.
The enemy of your enemy is not your friend.
God forbids... Kanun of Lekm mentality.
Also I kept the best quote for a special post:
"Albanians make up around one quarter of the population in Macedonia, and according to opinion polls, many would "rather trade the name of the country in return for a speedy EU and NATO accession than the Macedonian majority."
Here is an interesting article I found on the examiner.com newspaper which describes the consequence of the new unofficial Greek Veto. Tensions are dangerously growing with the Albanians and I am afraid the situation of Skopje will be totally out of control within the next weeks...
"Macedonia's ethnic-Albanian opposition calls for government to resign:
Macedonia's ethnic-Albanian opposition party, the Democratic Party of Albanians (DPA), has called on the ruling VMRO-DPNE government to step down for not being able to provide its people with a Euro-Atlantic future. Menduh Thaci, the leader of the [...]
Read the full comment DPA, stated that "'both [Prime Minister] Gruevski and VMRO-DPMNE want to resume their historical mission dating back 100 years ago i.e. to annex Macedonia to Bulgaria'" ([deleted link]/). He also urged the ethnic-Albanian junior government partner, the Democratic Union for Integration (DUI) to quit the government. However, DUI leader Xhevat Ademi said in a statement that "'the negotiations are not closed and all political factors will use the next six months as a chance to solve name issue'" ([deleted link]/).
Aries - nonsense, Mythos is one of Greece's finest beers (I can recall its restorative powers after a very long ans dry drive on Kephalonia's intimidating mountain roads very well !)
It is only beaten within Greece by imported Warsteiner from Germany, though in Bulgaria Kamienitsa is virtually as good.
Let's have a healthy topic of conversation for once ! Pivo will do (only don't they call it 'bira' in Bulgarian ?)
To koinos nous
i am afraid i must do the same comment i did with M.A.G
"the Mythos beer" is a bit boring
move on man .
macedonia always greece
My friend i have the impression that you are stuck . Just like an old vinyl disk on a old pick up
being repitative is a bit boring
for others.
to Makedonia Olways Greece - where did you find Mythos beer brewed in Macedonia ?
Interested to know, as we can send a Fact-Finding party of beer drinkers there....maybe it's called "Mythos Pivo" ?
the deal is here:change your name,stop propaganda,stop lies and europe is open!!!!or stay with makedonian mythos!!!!!your chose!!!!your future!!!!
This happens all the time with the EU nothing to worry about... the EU economy is a priority that needs to be sorted out first before talks for further EU enlargement... if you look at other countries such as Bulgaria and Greece it took 10 years for these two to join the EU... so try to not make this an issue for Macedonia and the rest of the Balkan countries. Intelligent people can see that the monster that is the European Union will take all the European countries under its wing even if these countries do not want to join [...]
Read the full comment they will be forced economically to do so... the EU is the new USSR.
This comment has been removed by the moderator because it contained foul, abusive or discriminating language
My dear friend Aries, it's amazing how you always try and defend the Greek position but end up proving the Macedonian side.
The link you gave aptly shows that the Greeks were colonizers, where they would send their excessive populations to foreign lands and try for a land grab. Such was the case for Macedonia, because of your colony's there and small minority population in Macedonia throughout the years you somehow equate that with the right of calling Macedonia a Greek state.
Well my friend you are wrong and Macedonians will be known as Macedonians for [...]
Read the full comment time immortal.
As for your friend Jeffrey of Oz, who put his foot in his mouth,when he said, "the yugoslavs are dark haired, pale and no blue eyes", should take a look at the modern Greeks who uncannily have the same resemblance!! So keep drinking your fine Aussie beer, but do get some knowledge before writing something so childish.
This comment has been removed by the moderator because it contained foul, abusive or discriminating language
Koinos Nous, stop to think everytime you are the 8th wonder of the world and respect the moderators. Thank you.
I advice you to read carefully this article below which does not come from me, but from the Focus Information Agency: http://www.focus-fen.net/index.php?id=n203150
If their english does not satisfy you, try to deal this issue directly with them, not with me.
You will maybe finally realize that your hellenophobic view is exclusively part of you and not from the other EU members...
[...]
Read the full comment
"Slovenia turns its back on Macedonia as well"
Skopje. Slovenia, too, considers compromise with Greece on the name issue and starting EU accession talks as existentialistic issue, said Slovenian Prime Minister Borut Pahor on Friday, quoted by Macedonian Dnevnik newspaper. Pahor confirmed that Slovenia has showed at the meeting of EU foreign ministers on December 7 understanding towards Greek’s position negotiations with Macedonia cannot be started until the name dispute is solved.
According to diplomats in the European Union this position (of Slovenia) is very logical in the view of the fact it relies on the solidarity of the member states and is blocking for a year negotiations with Croatia. However, there is no doubt, Ljubljana has contributed to strengthening the method bilateral disputes to be used for blocking integration of EU candidate member states, the newspaper reads.
On December 7 and 8, during the sitting of the EU foreign ministers, Greece was supported by Cyprus, Malta, Spain and France and “understanding of Greece’s position” was shown by many countries, including Slovenia, Bulgaria, Romania, Luxembourg, Belgium, Portuguese, Germany and the Netherlands, the edition writes".
to Moderator - aren't you being just a bit over-zealous ? The links I gave to your fellow-newspapers Vecer (Slovenia) and Dnevnik (Macedonia) were hardly commercial, and were very relevant to the subject at hand.
I reckon all you wannabe Macedonians over their in Yugoslavia should look at your selves in the mirror mate and realise that I'm no historian but Alexander the Great was supposed to be blond and blue eyed pretty much like us Aussies down at the beach but every Yugislav here in Australia is dark haired, pale, and no blue eyes. You oughta stop stealing other peoples identity and keep your Yugislav one after all you were so happy with that identity untill you all had your stupid war in the 90s. There are heaps of Yugislavs in Oz and I [...]
Read the full comment reckon the majority are not blond like the ancient Macedonians which means you are not part of that race. Maybe your Yugislav genes are a mixture of all the people in your area like Bulgarians, turks, Albanians, serbs who knows but if you ask most of the Aussies they reckon your to Yugislav looking to have any blond and blue eyed features. But keep trying you might convince some other people in the world. In Oz the land of the fair go we know who are the real macedonians and thats why we will never allow Yugislavs to hijack other peoples names. Even the governments speaker said it right in your Yugislav governments face in your country that there is no way in this lifetime or the next of having Yugislavs trying to take other peoples history. good luck though I'm sure there are heaps of gullible countries out there who obviously have no yugislavs living there to have some scope.
Yugislavs are Yugislavs and thats that guys.
So keep dreaming Sasha and all your Yugislavis there is no hope. We have the best music in the world here in Oz and I was talkin to a mate to see what the Yugislavs are famous for and we couldn't find one thing. So good luck in Yugislavia and when I go to preston tonight I'm picking up my Yugislav babe Neka who reckons my blond hair and blue eyes are really beaut. maybe I qualify a little better that you guys what to you reckon.
Cheers from down under.
This comment has been removed by the moderator because it contained foul, abusive or discriminating language
This comment has been removed by the moderator because it contained foul, abusive or discriminating language
Peter.
At last you have named a source
Assiros (Άσσηρος) to which to which Karakassidou refers
in her Anthropolgical quest is a municipality in the Thessaloniki Prefecture, Greece. Population 3,861 (2001).
The Tomba archaeological site of Assiros , a 4000 yr old settlement mound, is located within the territory of modern Assiros excavated between 1975 and 1989 at this site has made a major contribution to understanding the nature of settlement, society, economy and material culture in prehistoric Macedonia. In addition a combination of radiocarbon and dendrochronological research on building [...]
Read the full comment timbers recovered from the site has provided one of the few accurate dates for the transition from Bronze to Iron Age in the Aegean area c. 1070 BC.
The Burden of the Balkans Anastasia Karakasidou Wellesley College
(Very nice diction excellent I must admit in political extortion
and Marxian theology
At the outbreak of the First Balkan War in 1912, a young political correspondent left Vienna on the 25th of April, traveling by train to Belgrade. Although he had visited the Balkans before, he was still impressed with the natural beauty of the landscape, and still intrigued with what he called this "multicultural, motley, culturally and politically confused East." Aboard the train, he observed, the first and second class carriages were Anastasia N. Karakasidou - The Burden of the Balkans - Anthropological Quarterly occupied by middle-class passengers, clean-shaven and rather homogenous in appearance. Third class carriages, by contrast, were filled with a mix of peoples communicating in an "incredible language made up of Bulgarian, German, Serbian, and French words." Throughout his writings on the Balkan War, this journalist -- and activist -- consistently referred to the Balkans as 'the East." This imagery seems to have been provoked by the spectacle of violence, and a pervasive injurious sense of lack expressed among the populace, set in a context of unresolved conflict. The correspondent repeatedly comments on the lack of industry in the countries he visits. His commentaries on the backwardness of the peasantry are reminiscent of Marx's now infamous analogy to a sack of potatoes. The autocratic character of the Balkan monarchies... "
VESTIGES OF COMMUNIST THOUGHT ON EXPLOITATION .
while intermarriage is a key element in Karakasidou's argument, none of the seven genealogiesof Greek patrilines in the appendix identify
spouses by ethnicity or locality, and only "one contains their names". As a result, the township of Assiros
does not emerge as a flesh and blood community,and Karakasidou offers little sense of having
been there. I found this disappointing and puzzling.
Second, the core of the analysis rests upon a single
and simple thesis: that Greek speakers were able to dominate local affairs through intermarriage, patronage,
wealth, and commercial power. Their
domination was buttressed through local connections
with the Greek Orthodox Church, the school
system, political parties, and various national
movements. The problem with this thesis is that that it is not been demonstrated.
An example lies in the case of local Greek
notables (tsorbadjidhes).
HOPE THAT THE ABOVE ARE HELPFULL
ps.
please leave Sasha in peace he is a young person he has his own beliefs.
Chew my friend.
Sasha,you have no voice in the Macedonian decisions.Speak about Bulgarias deniel of the existance of Macedonian minority in Bulgaria.Just remember 1913 what happened.What the Prime Minister Gruevski and the President of Macedonia have said I applaud them for standing up to EU and Greece. Republic of Macedonia will never change its identity or language,a language that is connected to the ancient Macedonians.Greeces absurd claims of Macedonia being Greek is a falshood,fabrication of history.If Greece is so adamant on the Macedonian people being Greek,why are they denying the rights of the indigenouse Macedonian people?Why is Bulgaria doing the same with its [...]
Read the full comment Macedonian people in Bulgaria?Is this a coincidance? Miss.Karakasidous book"Wheat,Hills of Blood:Passages to Nationhood on Greek Macedonia 1870-1990(Universiyu of Chicago Press,1997)Karakasidou pursued an inquiry into the ethnological origin of certain rural inhabitants in Greek Macedonia and challenged the myth of the Greek national homogeneity of the region."Miss.Karakasidou also made a statement that shows Macedonia was not Greek or Bulgarian but existed centuries before Greece did.With or without EU Macedonia has the will to survive as it did for centuries before.Greece is acting like a child that just dropped the bottle of milk from its mouth.Greece knows wevy well,Macedonia does not belong to Greece or Bulgaria.Why Turkey,Serbia and Albania are not againts Macedonias name?They are our neighbours as well,but the countries who occupy parts of Macedonia do.Is this such a mystery to be able to recognise the reasons behind it?It is obvious,they dont want to loose the occupied lands.
nicola
Perhaps this link will persuade you on the proportion of Latins in Italy at that time. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magna_Graecia
i am very glad to help you with your education,for obessions are usely the result of ignorance
and lead very bads manifestations of psychological instability.
This comment has been removed by the moderator because it contained foul, abusive or discriminating language
This comment has been removed by the moderator because it contained foul, abusive or discriminating language
For "1 and other Greeks let go of your past because greatness comes from the acts you do today, not from history! This show you are putting on only proves that you are not the Greeks of yesteryear, but a mixed race trying to prove one's own identity!
My young friend Sasha, I see that your youth and biased Bulgarin roots are interfering with your rational thoughts
Your quite reasonable comments on other posts have become irrelevant by your insults and demeaning attacks, such as the Greeks would do, showing that the arguments you put forward are of questionable value!
The pointing out of this grand "Tito" conspiracy, suggests that you are the one duped by the Greek propaganda and has been taken in with them.
As for your work ethic, again your youth speaks volumes. I feel that you rely on [...]
Read the full comment the state to give you a job and handout. My young friend the world of capitalism is not like that. One must get off one's intellectual ass and look for or create a job!!
By the way, there is nothing wrong with a delightful glass of rakije, maybe you should have one to put a few hairs on your chest!
GMS - thanks for the article, but I can possibly ask for an English translation ?
You are quite properly "pointilleux" about the use of French with all the right accents, so I feel entitled to ask for the same equivalence in English.
To the poor Koinos Nous who is saying everytime Greece has no support by EU members about the name dispute, here is an interesting article:
"Slovenia turns its back on Macedonia as well"
Skopje. Slovenia, too, considers compromise with Greece on the name issue and starting EU accession talks as existentialistic issue, said Slovenian Prime Minister Borut Pahor on Friday, quoted by Macedonian Dnevnik newspaper. Pahor confirmed that Slovenia has showed at the meeting of EU foreign ministers on December 7 understanding towards Greek’s position negotiations with Macedonia cannot be started until [...]
Read the full comment the name dispute is solved.
According to diplomats in the European Union this position (of Slovenia) is very logical in the view of the fact it relies on the solidarity of the member states and is blocking for a year negotiations with Croatia. However, there is no doubt, Ljubljana has contributed to strengthening the method bilateral disputes to be used for blocking integration of EU candidate member states, the newspaper reads.
On December 7 and 8, during the sitting of the EU foreign ministers, Greece was supported by Cyprus, Malta, Spain and France and “understanding of Greece’s position” was shown by many countries, including Slovenia, Bulgaria, Romania, Luxembourg, Belgium, Portuguese, Germany and the Netherlands, the edition writes".
Best Regards,
GMS
This comment has been removed by the moderator because it contained foul, abusive or discriminating language
357 world famouse historians protest against fyroms propaganda and falsification of history:
"The answers are clear: Alexander the Great was Greek, not Slavic, and Slavs and their language were nowhere near Alexander or his homeland until 1000 years later. This brings us back to the geographic area known in antiquity as Paionia. Why would the people who live there now call themselves Macedonians and their land Macedonia? Why would they abduct a completely Greek figure and make him their national hero?"
"the government in Skopje to understand that it cannot build a [...]
Read the full comment national identity at the expense of historic truth. Our common international society cannot survive when history is ignored, much less when history is fabricated."
read more in
www.macedonia-evidence.org
To Aries thanks for the link, colony i question that because they moved into that region 800bc,and it was latin land thats why you were called theifs, thats how german historians fabricated an identity while he was employed by prince otto of baveria who became your first king. greci means theif and magna grecia is big theif.
img3maggrecmap.html here above is [...]
It is known that a picture has a value of a thousand words
please before making a complete fool of yourself most midly put
learn!!!!
http://www.utexas.edu/courses/introtogreece/lect8/
Read the full comment a link for you to see
open your and chew.
Macedonian-American: I was going to say how much I agreed with your two most recent postings, before I saw your kind comments further below.
This whole issue does tend to become a "dialogue of the deaf", especially as some people seem to think that they have to shout all the time, especially in CAPITAL LETTERS. (No, Periclis, why should I possibly be thinking of you ?)
I'll be in contact bilaterally - thanks for the email address.
I'd also like to mention that I am an American that hold Europe and the EU in high esteem. It saddens me that some of the Greeks I see commenting on the internet seem to rejoice in having another chance to veto Macedonia. I hope it is the older, more nationalistic and conservative, that hold hard-line positions on both sides. Like me, I'm sure the Macedonian youth only want to have the opportunity that comes with being part of the EU, both personally and for their country. Hopefully, even the younger Greeks are just as puzzled that some people are [...]
Read the full comment so threatened by a region of their country sharing a name with a neighboring country. Republic of Northern Macedonia for all international dealings makes it clear that there are no territorial demands. Can't we just move forward?
Oops, I cute myself off by accident. I meant to say:
I have my Google news feed set to send me all the news regarding Macedonia and the EU and sadly, there is very little reported by anyone anywhere. No one really cares about Macedonia. The truth is, as much as the Greeks rant and rave, Macedonia is a small and weak country that poses no threat to anyone. Unfortunately, Greek's obstinacy could play a part in destabilizing the country and creating ethnic conflict, which would be terrible for the entire Balkan region. This is harmful [...]
Read the full comment for Europe as a whole and one would think that Greece EU would happily accept a compromise (such as Northern Macedonia for international use) for the sake of the greater good and harmony, over what is a pretty minor issue. I'm surprised that the EU is not putting more pressure on Greece in this matter. But again, no one cares about a tiny, weak country.
Hari,
I agree that much of the press I find seems questionable and far from unbiased. However, I assure you, there is nothing at all about Macedonia in the American news services like the Associated Press and Reuters. Neither is there any news from reputable European press, such as the BBC. I have my Google news feed set to send me all the news regarding Macedonia and the EU and sadly.
I'm happy to see any news at all. (Perhaps I should be setting my feed to search for French or German [...]
Read the full comment language news?)Sadly, it's difficult to get a sense of things from the perspective of the EU, and all the political and bureaucratic machinations therein, which is all that matters to me.
Sorry to all the prevous post with 1 is mine
thanks
Nicola. img3maggrecmap.html here above is a link for you to see
It is known that a picture has a value of a thousand words
please before making a complete fool of yourself most midly put
learn!!!!
http://www.utexas.edu/courses/introtogreece/lect8/
open your and chew.
No macedonian politician has the mandate or rights to change the historical name of macedonia. And so the name issue its artificial greece has no rights to the name.
2013 end of the burcarest treaty that divided macedonia, into three parts, greece is worried that european union will have to make revision and return the lands by law.
Hope greece saved billions for compensating the macedonian people that lost there lands and for hardship, genocide they suffered in the hands of the greek dictatorship.
your question from before here's your [...]
Read the full comment answer.
the burcarest treaty is it still valid, answer is yes till it expires in 2013.
the term magna grecia was not situated in present greece but the southern part of today's italy, guess who your neighbors were, correct it was the latins they named you thiefs greci and magna grecia big thiefs. it doesn't take einstein to figure this out.
you greeks should question how you recieved macedonian land,was it by inheritance or deception, I think it was the later, also you should question your own identity as greeks as there was no ancient greeks but, people called danai, coincidently they where named as thiefs by latin as greci. most of you are probably macedonians but you have a mix of danai.
To #1, when you tell the censor taker your Macedonian and he writes something else what can you do!
My friend Sasha, there were more old people then young people at the protest because it is these old people who remember the past correctly!
They witnessed the injustices of the Greeks who took their lands and tried to assimilate them into their culture and change their names!
The old people who remember their fathers and grandfathers stating they are Macedonians not Greek Bulgarian or Serbian!
The old people who suffered through war, degradation, humiliation and ethnic cleansing!
As for you Sasha get a job any job and work to the best [...]
Read the full comment of your ability, get off your high intellectual horse, and really see the truth and work for a stronger and prosperous Macedonia!!!
too peter you claim, the europe is not some think!!!!(look greece is pure now)agess in fyrom you dont have news from world!!!!!!!IS C-R-I-C-Y O-N A-L-L W-O-R-L-D,is clear!!!!greece have 270 bilion economy and you have 15-20??? bilion,so dont worry for greece!!!!!wen greece take some eurofighter, and then you see how e.u stop all this about greece economy!!!!!butt the point is you not greece!!!!we dont have problem you are no nato,no e.u,and what he say the gruefski????and if the past 100 years still look for solution,a dont now how happy you are now!!!!!!!about your diaspora,is very <<fanatic>> butt you live in fyrom [...]
Read the full comment the live too U.S.A or AUSTRALIA or EUROPE,you have the realy problem!!!!!a think is time too think very sirius!!!!!!one name like slavomakedonia os some thing like that!!!!sirius historic IN fyrom have fun with you,about your makedonian nation!!!!!!!!just because you are one fasistic country all this people is <<back>>you born with propaganda a now is not izzy for you too see <<OPEN>>only idiot the believe that you are makedonian!!!!!!you are slavic nation and you say you are makedonian!!!!!you speak slavic dialect and you say this is makedonian!!!!!!kiro gligorof (PM on fyrom 1990)says on greece press:we are not makedonian,we are slavs,we dont have nothing close too alexandros,we come on this area latter!!!!!!!!!!!this is very clear for sirius people!!!!!a aske lott of time on this forum the people from fyrom:what means makedonia?????no answer!!!!!!is normal because is greece word!!!!!the makedonian speak greece,have greece name,the old makedonia coin have greece word!!!!!the alexandros is prout ass hellenas (achileas)and not because is slavic like you!!!!!!this is clear by sirius historic and not by fyrom books!!!!!a think you dont realy care for history and just you want the propaganda!!!!!agess you feal shame like slavs!!!!!why???????only you now!!!!!greece look the future you stay with propaganda!!!!!!just you lose time and not the gruefski!!!!!!he is part of the problem!!!he want the problem he is PM because of the problem!!!!!!think!!!!!!!!
This is the second great diplomatic victory by Greece for a fair cause after the NATO summit in Bucharest. And more wins like this one will follow.
The next one will be the change of FYROM's name which is unevitable. No escape is possible.
To Koinos Nous
polaz-ottomana1911.jpg
Maybe you can explain where all the Macedonians (Makedonski) were in Macedonia in 1911?
http://www2.units.it/~storia/corsi/Dogo/tabelle/po
Still waiting for Godski to come...
the term magna grecia was not situated in present greece but the southern part of today's italy, guess who your neighbors were, correct it was the latins they named you thiefs greci and magna grecia big thiefs. it doesn't take einstein to figure this out.
you greeks should question how you recieved macedonian land,was it by inheritance or deception, I think it was the later, also you should question your own identity as greeks as there was no ancient greeks but, people called danai, coincidently they where named as thiefs by latin as greci. most of you are probably macedonians but you have a mix of danai.
"he would not find a government that could fulfil his conditions over the next 100 years," Gruevski was quoted by Dnevnik as saying."
With these statements Gruevski helps in finding a sollution with Greece? If fyrom has the right to self determination as "Macedonia" and "macedonians", why doesn't Greece and makedon-greeks don't have the right of being self determined so? Greece doesn't claim any land of fyrom and it is clear. Greece also can wait for 100 years to find a sollution. Fyrom can wait for so long???
Sorry macedonia-american MINA is part of nationalistic opinions. MINA always represents all news in nationalistic prose. You in big trouble to find a FYROM news which not nationalistic. Try american news they are better for europe news.
Hello, Koinos Nous
As a 1st generation American that qualifies for dual Macedonia-American citizenship, I have a personal interest in Macedonia gaining EU acceptance.
Your comments on this article and others on Sofia Echo regarding the "name issue" seem to be some of the most level-headed and in-depth analysis on the topic I've been able to find on the web. Perhaps because you are of neither Greek nor Macedonian descent and have some knowledge of the inner-workings of EU bureaucracy.
Do you happen to have a blog or [...]
Read the full comment write for any websites? I would love to find more intelligent and informed commentary on this issue. The English language news reports from sites like MINA are scant and appear to be rather poorly translated. The rest of the internet commenting on Macedonia and the EU seems to consist of mostly inexplicably angry Greek nationalists that YELL IN ALL CAPS. (In fact, if you can wait about a week for this semester is over, I'll build you a free Wordpress blog. You'll have one dedicated reader!)
If you'd rather not post here, feel free to contact me at novaroad at gmail dot com.
Thank you for being a voice in the wilderness, Koinos Nous.
Cheers,
Stuck in America & Dreaming of Europe
The name of the first Bulgarian cosmonaut is George Ivanov
Fyroms president is named George Ivanov
So strange that two totaly unrelated people ,the Bulgarians and ancient macedons have the same names
Both people also say Solun, but not Thessaloniki like the ancient macedons.
If the Makedonski people receive EU membership it will be because their government accepted their identity as Makedonski and this is positive for the Land. EU should try harder to help the Makedonski people and stop supporting the Greeks. The Greek government still has its ancient Macedonian heroes but they should let the Makedonski with their Bulgarian heroes be Makedonski.
My Makedonski friends we support you in Spain.
2010 will bring good news to all Makedonskis.
Ivanov is famous Bulgarski man but now president of Makedoniya. Many time Bulgarski Narod in Makedoniya want EU and hope to get.
To Peter and all his fascist diaspora this is for you for continual disregard of Macedonian freedom.
To all the diaspora and internal fascist supporters of our country here is what our student Macedonia Youth have always pronounced that it has always been a government inspired farce that our Macedonian Youth were partaking in any of these so-called nationalistic public protests. Here to all our jingoistic nationalists here read your crap, read it and then explain to the Macedonia Youth why we don't trust your ideologies.
9/12/09 FOCUS
[...]
Read the full comment Skopje. More old than young people have presented at the protest in front of EU Representation in Skopje devoted to the deferred decision of EU Council EU Council on opening membership talks with Macedonia after Greece opposed an early start to the negotiations, Macedonian A1 television informed. Employees of the state administration from the east part of Macedonia told the television their boss have told them if anyone have not presented at the protest would not receive wage. In their words they have arrived with five busses and were free from work the whole day to come to the protest. No one wished to say who the organizer is or whether they have been politically motivated but confessed they support the ruling party.
Despite the protest was announced to be student most of the people have graduated long time ago.
The official organizer, the Student Parliament and the Union of Gymnasiums, denied of being politically motivated.
This farce has finally been highlighted why would our students support the most fascist government in the Balkans.
Long Live the Macedonian Youth Forever.
Students united against the fascists of Macedonia.
Gruevski and his monkey Milososki once again let down our Macedonia. He claims the alternative was losing our identity. The political rhetoric never changes when you've been using the same spin doctors for the last few years. Most of the Macedonian youth have caught on to his political rebounds after a national failure. More Macedonians are waking up to him they are realising that our identity was not on the negotiating table but rather our country's name. As long as he keeps the masses believing that the Greeks (& Bulgarians) want us to erase our Macedonian identity he will have a nationalistic following. The diaspora have won an enormous victory over this national failure. For the diaspora will gain far more influence in our domestic politics dictacting and bankrolling the puppets in our government and further dividing public opinion. While Gruevski stays in power we are to remain the country that could've but couldn't make the cut. As Georgi Spasov (leader of the Macedonian Think Tank DEMOS) said, Gruevski needs the Greek antagonism to stay in power which means no compromise. It would be ironic in deed if the fascists of our land were to negotiate our freedom. Its like saying that the Croation Ustase Fascists actually wanted Serbian neighbours while carrying out daily executions of tens of thousands of ordinary Serbian people. We will never forget.
Long Live the Macedonian Youth.
May the diaspora fascists build more houses, buy more cars and dream of more ancient tunics.
But please leave us alone!
Your pockets are filled deep with misery creating anguish. You don't live here so YOU shouldN'T have a saY IN OUR FUTURE.
mACEDONIA 4 THE mACEDONIAN yOUTH
Peter
Learn
The Glagolithic alphabet is followed by an entry, in both Glagolithic script and Latin translation, stating that this azbukinidarium (abecedarium) was commissioned by Abbot Divissus (Lat. also Dionysius, Cz. Diviš). The name Diviš also comes under the Cyrillic alphabet. It is hard to tell whether the reference here is to Diviš I, Abbot of the Monastery of Břevnov between 1360 and 1366 and a known doctor of theology, or Diviš II, Abbot between 1385 and 1409. The presence of the two alphabets in the Codex Gigas, however, must be connected with the upsurge of [...]
Read the full comment interest in Slavic liturgy during the fourteenth century and the foundation in Prague of the Catholic-Slavic monastery of Emmaus (Cz. Emauzy), which obtained papal permission to hold its services in Church Slavonic. Monks from Croatia were called in to teach the Czech monks both the Church Slavonic language and the Glagolithic alphabet. The missionary brothers Cyril and Methodius were nominated the monastery’s patron saints, together with St Procopius. It was he who in the eleventh century founded the monastery of Sazava, a Benedictine community with a Slavic rite. Procopius’ successors, however, were expelled from Sazava, and in 1097 the Slavic monastery was captured by the crusaders and its library destroyed.
Are you patronizing the Glagolithic Alphabet??
Peter
The only thing i agree with you
is that the EU is not a panacaea
After March of 2010 if Macedonia is not given date for EU membership,Macedonia will withdrawl from the name talks.This is my prediction.I wish the Macedonian people all the best for protecting our identity.EU is not everything,just look at Greece who is poorer than ever.
This comment has been removed by the moderator because it contained off-topic content
This comment has been removed by the moderator because it contained off-topic content
This comment has been removed by the moderator because it contained foul, abusive or discriminating language
This comment has been removed by the moderator because it contained foul, abusive or discriminating language
Sorry Donbasillo to disapoint you,there was no Greece before 1829.Lets stick to the truth on history and without any bias.Historicly,Greece had a counsular services in Macedonia durring the Ottoman Empire durring 1903.If Macedonia was Greek as per your claim,why would Greece have a counsular service but not in Pelopones?Is it not a fact that the Greek PM Rallis boasted his co-operation with the Turks againts the Macedonian revolutionaries?Read his comments on "The New York Times".The year was 1903.Furthermore my friend Donbasillo,in 1925 at the League of Nations Greece agreed to produce the Abcedar for the Macedonian school children,is this a [...]
Read the full comment coincidance.Why the Greek high ranking representative Vasilis Dendramanis told the Serbs and Bulgarians at that meetting that a Macedonian identity,language and customs do exist? That the people and their ethnicity is different than those of the Greeks,Serbs and Bulgarians?Did he make a mistake then,and now things changed,and how so?Why after the population exchange between Greece and Turkey all our toponims,familly names were changed to Greek?Why the ND leader Karamanlis declaired that the Christian Turks are the real Macedonians who are the ancient Macedonians?Than why today you Greeks claim you are the connection to the ancient Macedonians if the Turks are?This does not make any sense for your absurd claims,does it?In reality, you Greeks are denying your own identity by claiming you are Macedonians.History will sort its self out,not your politics.The whole problem with the question of Macedonia is purly Greek propaganda that is being exposed now.Once more,Greeks claim the Macedonians are Greek,so does Bulgaria claims we the Macedonians are Bulgarians.The question is;Can we be Macedoniana with two different identities?Think for a moment,same people,different identities,how can that be?The obvious reason is this,Greece does not want to admitt there are indigenous Macedonian people under Greek occupation,so does Bulgaria.Once more, it amounts to politics,not reality.
This comment has been removed by the moderator because it contained foul, abusive or discriminating language
This comment has been removed by the moderator because it contained off-topic content
This comment has been removed by the moderator because it contained foul, abusive or discriminating language
This comment has been removed by the moderator because it contained foul, abusive or discriminating language
i personally agree with peter!!Afterall the EU path will be the same as NATO.You will enter finally but splited and with a proper name!!Until then be happy and celebrate with the bad things that are happening to Greece,so u can forget really really bad reallity...Peter i agree with u,EU is not for u time to understant it!
Don’t you think you FYROM bone heads are trying to control 27 member Countries.
the correct translation of "Makedonski" into English is "Macedonian", the same as the correct translation of "Polski" is "Polish", or "Russkiy" is "Russian".
The pre-1913 German and French maps of the region (available elsewhere on this site) clearly show the area of both today's Greek Macedonia and that of former Jugoslav Macedonia as being ethnically populated by Slavs, Vlachs, and Turks. No mention there of "Macedonia Always Greek" - indeed very much the opposite.
Just a small point of historical accuracy to put against all this rhetoric from the Greek side (but [...]
Read the full comment then "rhetoric" is a word derived from Greek ! Makes sense...)
Sorry Peter but there was no "macedonian nation" before the beginning of the 19th century and it became "official" in 1945 as part of Yugoslavia...
You are Makedonski-not Macedonian!
Macedonians alaways were and still are Greeks!
It is ironic when a nation like Greece controling 27 member countries hostage on importent decisions as to who will or wont joing the club.The EU will selfdestructby allowing Greece to destroy ones nation that pre-existed them for many centuries.The EU knows very well why Greece is on this path,and this path must be stopped by nations of consciens.As a private citizen and Macedonian I believe Macedonia can do without the EU membership,and it should look to the east and USA.