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Sat, May 26 2012
Bulgaria to give evidence in World Court case on Kosovo
An archive photo of the International Court of Justice in The Hague conducting a public hearing.
Photo: International Court of Justice
Bulgaria was scheduled to give evidence on December 4 2009 in the International Court of Justice in The Hague in support of Kosovo’s unilateral declaration of independence from Serbia.
The court began hearing oral evidence on December 1 in the case, which arises from a United Nations General Assembly resolution secured by Serbia in 2008 a few months after Kosovo’s self-declared independence, which Belgrade rejects as illegal.
When proceedings opened, lawyers for Serbia argued that Kosovo's move not only challenged Serbia's sovereignty, but undermined international law.
Harvard law professor Andreas Zimmermann is one of the lawyers arguing Serbia's case in court.
"With all due respect to the actors involved, it was certainly not helpful - to say the least - for the mediator appointed by the [UN] Secretary-General to refer publicly to Serbia as a thief that had stolen Kosovo from the Albanian Kosovo population, as if Serbia did not have a valid title to the territory ever since 1913," Zimmermann said, according to a report by the Voice of America.
And even before that, Serbia's lawyers said, Kosovo had been the "historical cradle of Serbia," one of the "essential pillars of its identity".
But Kosovo foreign minister Skender Hyseni told the court it would be "inconceivable" to re-open negotiations with Serbia on Kosovo's future. He said that "would be highly disruptive, and could even spark new conflict in the region."
Bulgaria is one of 15 countries speaking in support of Kosovo. The others are the United States, France, the UK, Germany, Albania, the Netherlands, Norway, Croatia, Austria, Saudi Arabia, Bahrain, Denmark, Finland and Jordan.
Those backing Serbia include China, Russia, Spain, Romania, Argentina, Azerbaijan, Belarus, Bolivia, Brazil, Burundi, Cyprus, Venezuela and Vietnam.
Belarus and Azerbaijan told the ICJ that the declaration on independence of Kosovo was contrary to international law and not based on legal arguments.
On the third day of hearings, Belarus representative Elena Gricenko said that the Yugoslavian constitution of 1974 had granted Kosovo wide autonomy and the status of a federal unit and that the subsequent limitation of that status could not legitimise the right of Kosovo Albanians to self-determination, Serbian media reported.
Azerbaijan representative Agshin Mediev said that entities could not be regarded as states if they seceded in violation of the internal laws of a state.
Mediev said that ever since its foundation, the UN has been opposed to infringements of the sovereignty and territorial integrity of its member states.
No unilateral declaration of independence that had been opposed by the mother state had been recognised by the UN, Mediev said.
Russian news agency Itar-Tass quoted Austrian representative Helmut Tichy as having told the ICJ that Vienna’s view was that Kosovo’s declaration of independence was "in accordance with international law".
There were "no rules that prohibited a declaration of independence or secession in international law", Tichy said. He said that the declaration had been adopted by "elected officials who expressed the will of the people in Kosovo, and that was not illegal in international law".
The Albanian, German and Saudi Arabian representatives told the ICJ that Kosovo was already a state, with statehood in full accordance with international law.
Argentina called the declaration of independence a violation of international law.
Germany’s legal representative also cited the right of self-determination of the people of Kosovo, adding that the German people had invoked this right when they united to dismantle the Berlin Wall.
Gazmend Barbullusi, Albania’s ambassador to the Netherlands, told the court: "Kosovo is now an independent and multi-ethnic state, in which democracy and law are ruling, and citizen’s rights are respected.
"In this respect, Kosovo is an example for many other states. Kosovo is making its contribution to peace and stability. Albania and many other countries have recognised the independence of Kosovo, considering that the declaration is in full accordance with international law," Barbullusi said.
Apart from Bulgaria, Bolivia, Brazil, and Burundi were scheduled to give evidence on December 3. The hearings are scheduled to continue until December 11.
The court began hearing oral evidence on December 1 in the case, which arises from a United Nations General Assembly resolution secured by Serbia in 2008 a few months after Kosovo’s self-declared independence, which Belgrade rejects as illegal.
When proceedings opened, lawyers for Serbia argued that Kosovo's move not only challenged Serbia's sovereignty, but undermined international law.
Harvard law professor Andreas Zimmermann is one of the lawyers arguing Serbia's case in court.
"With all due respect to the actors involved, it was certainly not helpful - to say the least - for the mediator appointed by the [UN] Secretary-General to refer publicly to Serbia as a thief that had stolen Kosovo from the Albanian Kosovo population, as if Serbia did not have a valid title to the territory ever since 1913," Zimmermann said, according to a report by the Voice of America.
And even before that, Serbia's lawyers said, Kosovo had been the "historical cradle of Serbia," one of the "essential pillars of its identity".
But Kosovo foreign minister Skender Hyseni told the court it would be "inconceivable" to re-open negotiations with Serbia on Kosovo's future. He said that "would be highly disruptive, and could even spark new conflict in the region."
Bulgaria is one of 15 countries speaking in support of Kosovo. The others are the United States, France, the UK, Germany, Albania, the Netherlands, Norway, Croatia, Austria, Saudi Arabia, Bahrain, Denmark, Finland and Jordan.
Those backing Serbia include China, Russia, Spain, Romania, Argentina, Azerbaijan, Belarus, Bolivia, Brazil, Burundi, Cyprus, Venezuela and Vietnam.
Belarus and Azerbaijan told the ICJ that the declaration on independence of Kosovo was contrary to international law and not based on legal arguments.
On the third day of hearings, Belarus representative Elena Gricenko said that the Yugoslavian constitution of 1974 had granted Kosovo wide autonomy and the status of a federal unit and that the subsequent limitation of that status could not legitimise the right of Kosovo Albanians to self-determination, Serbian media reported.
Azerbaijan representative Agshin Mediev said that entities could not be regarded as states if they seceded in violation of the internal laws of a state.
Mediev said that ever since its foundation, the UN has been opposed to infringements of the sovereignty and territorial integrity of its member states.
No unilateral declaration of independence that had been opposed by the mother state had been recognised by the UN, Mediev said.
Russian news agency Itar-Tass quoted Austrian representative Helmut Tichy as having told the ICJ that Vienna’s view was that Kosovo’s declaration of independence was "in accordance with international law".
There were "no rules that prohibited a declaration of independence or secession in international law", Tichy said. He said that the declaration had been adopted by "elected officials who expressed the will of the people in Kosovo, and that was not illegal in international law".
The Albanian, German and Saudi Arabian representatives told the ICJ that Kosovo was already a state, with statehood in full accordance with international law.
Argentina called the declaration of independence a violation of international law.
Germany’s legal representative also cited the right of self-determination of the people of Kosovo, adding that the German people had invoked this right when they united to dismantle the Berlin Wall.
Gazmend Barbullusi, Albania’s ambassador to the Netherlands, told the court: "Kosovo is now an independent and multi-ethnic state, in which democracy and law are ruling, and citizen’s rights are respected.
"In this respect, Kosovo is an example for many other states. Kosovo is making its contribution to peace and stability. Albania and many other countries have recognised the independence of Kosovo, considering that the declaration is in full accordance with international law," Barbullusi said.
Apart from Bulgaria, Bolivia, Brazil, and Burundi were scheduled to give evidence on December 3. The hearings are scheduled to continue until December 11.
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Hearings on Kosovo at International Court of Justice nearing end
Nine days of oral argument end on December 11 2009 after advocates for and against Kosovo’s independence conclude their exchanges at the ICJ.
Bulgaria ‘again stabbed Serbia in the back’, Belgrade says
By defending Kosovo’s independence in the International Court of Justice, Bulgaria again had stabbed Serbia in the back, as it had done many times before in history, according to the Serbian delegation to the court case.
Bulgaria supports Kosovo independence in International Court of Justice
A transcript of the evidence given on December 4 2009 by Bulgaria's representatives in the International Court of Justice case on Kosovo.
International Court of Justice proceedings on Kosovo underway
Public hearings from December 1 to 11 2009 see presentation of rival arguments on the question of the independence of Kosovo.
Kosovo launches television ad campaign
Advertisements to promote the image of Kosovo are to be broadcast on major television channels including CNN, BBC and euronews, a media report in Pristina says.
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The Sofia Echo
Koinos Nous
Fri, Dec 25 2009 21:24 CET
"Peggy - what on earth gave you the idea that I am an Albanian ?
Another instance of the unwarranted assumptions to which you appear to be distinctly prone...
========================
You fit the profile.
Oh no, I just openend a can of worms. You will want to know all bout my ability to profile prople etc. Not interested in debating stuff which is off topic with you. [...]
Read the full comment
Stick to the topic. You are always trying to divert from topic but it isn't going to work any more.
I answered your question now let's move on or go and bother someone else.
Can somebody tell me why the relations between Bulgaria and Serbia are so bad? I mean, you have same religion and other prabales. I think that the EU have affected Bulgaria since they became a member. I'm a litle bit surprised... but at the same time happy for my country, The Republic of Kosova.
Peggy - what on earth gave you the idea that I am an Albanian ?
Another instance of the unwarranted assumptions to which you appear to be distinctly prone...
I see you are trying to provoke me.
First you imply a certain word then you deny it.
How typical of an Albanian.
Why did you even imply something you are not ready to back?
Because you don't have any constructive arguments so you resort to vulgarities.
Peggy:
What is on my mind is:
(a) the site rules (no rude swearwords, even accidentally), and
(b) your own complete and demonstrable lack of anything resembling a sense of humour !
Koinos Nous
Fri, Dec 18 2009 13:32 CET
"Peggy - for heaven's sake, don't put an "F" before the "UCK", or the Moderators will have kittens"
===================
What the hell is on your dirty little mind?
Peggy - for heaven's sake, don't put an "F" before the "UCK", or the Moderators will have kittens !
Sorry, that comment under 1 is mine. Just an error in posting.
Ben, what is there to be jealous about?
The fact that Bulgaria is siding with UCK?
No thanks, I wouldn't side with KLA aka UCK for anything in the wrld. They are nothing more than a bunch of terrorists.
I would rather side with Russia, China, India, Greece, Spain and so many more.
UCK can have Bulgaria.
Peggy Sat, Dec 05 2009 00:21
far as Bulgaria supporting Albanians, what's new? Since when did Bulgaria side with Serbia? They always stabbed Serbia in the back and in keeping with tradition they haven't disappointed this time either.
Paggy you seem to be a bit nervous jealous perhaps?
Peggy:
"Besides it was Tito the dictator who recognised Macedonia as that, NOT SERBIA."
Peggy, the area populated with Bulgarians which also happens to be part of the land of ancient Macedonia, was taken by Serbia in 1913 - 32 years before Tito came to power.
Tito established FYROM because he was sure that Yugoslavia is forever - it was a sign of confidence. Tito wasn't equipped with the foresight to predict her imminent demise. I disagree that Serbia was a victim there - Serbia was very much [...]
Read the full comment in charge and that was the problem. Like I said - Serbia doesn't have what it takes to incorporate different cultures under her auspices, nor does BG quite frankly and this is why we haven't tried to. Having a minority isn't the same, but even in that we don't do too well - relatively speaking - compared to ethnic cleansing and mass killings, we do just fine with our minorities, I have to say.
Quite frankly the way Bulgarian birth rate is going, the day may come when we lose our country - and that would be fine because it's all Europe now. I'll still have my homes, my favorite places - only my neighbors may change. Hell, that's probably how my neighbors in Austria feel about me - I have a little farm home near Vienna that I use in the winter (heading there for Christmas) - I bet they are sick of foreigners, or perhaps are just grateful that I am not North African or something - who knows, and who cares;)
So if I were Serb, I would accept what's going on now in the World Court - Kosovo isn't gone, it's still there. The sooner Serbia becomes EU member, the sooner Kosovo will too, and the sooner the dispossessed Serbs from there will have the legal recourse to reclaim their property - it's a good thing!
Serbia is on track to join long before Kosovo and that will give you some serious negotiating leverage to impose conditions, if Serbia plays her cards right.
Night!
"In other words, if people only knew what Serbs were really like they would support the government."
No Peggy, those are your "other words", not mine. I make no judgment on the "Serbs" as it were. "The Serbs" are too numerous and complex for any one to know "what they are really like", the same way Bulgarians are. I am basing it on my own thought process. I was extremely angry with NATOs actions in Serbia, at the time. As a Bulgarian I couldn't stomach NATO killing Christians for the sake of Muslims whom, I still [...]
Read the full comment feel, have little respect for Western values.
So I understand why many, if not most, Bulgarians tend to take Serbia's side, it's purely a tribal instinct and like it or not, we are pretty close with you folks, as far as tribes go. However, I am an inquisitive nature, and I always like to dig dipper into issues. Frankly, any emotional reaction is a sign of weakness, so I like to correct it when I can, mostly with information so that I can make an informed opinion..
I started filling the gaps that my history teachers left in my young, at the time, mind and discovered that 20th century's Serbian territorial greed is the source of much of our tragedies - not excusing any of the mistakes we, through our governments, have made. Try to see it through my eyes - in the same "stab in the back" while Bulgarian forces are busy dealing with the beaten by all of us Turks (Greece, BG, Serbia, Monte Negro) Serbia and Greece move in and occupy much of the Bulgarian speaking people bordering their countries.
As it happens, in that same "stab in the back" (ironic wording by Serbian press) the Serbs took over the mostly Albanian populated Kosovo, as well. That right there makes it silly, and frankly stupid, for me, as a Bulgarian to take Serbia's side on that issue. If the place was 90% Serb, perhaps I would've. No one should be up rooted in the 21st century because of nationality, but to do it to the majority, as it was done to us, and to the Albanians incidentally in the late 90s, would be doubly criminal.
as far as doing you favors - one thing we in BG have had in the last say - 15 years is pretty smart governments. No one knows better than me, that our EU membership is a political achievement. We will help Serbia in any way we can, not our of emotions, but because that would serve our own interests as well. No one wins living in a isolated poor neighborhood.
Valeri:
"As far as most Bulgarians - I actually think that the people are very pro- Serb, but that's because most aren't that aware of our local dynamics. Not so with folks in government."
______________________________
In other words, if people only knew what Serbs were really like they would support the government.
Perhaps you don't give your own people enough credit. Are you saying that most Bulgarians are uninformed? The implication is there and coming from a person who says he likes Serbs.
You [...]
Read the full comment could've fooled me.
Valeri, please don't do us any favours. Please support your government and try to open your people's eyes so that they can see how evil Serbs were throughout the ages. We really don't want friends like you anyway who say in one breath they like Serbs and in the other how if only people knew they real face they wouldn't.
I don't have any anger because of the way you feel but I do appreciate honesty.
Funny how Bulgaria blames Serbia for all their problem and you excuse an alliance with Hitler because of Serbia but you don't see how we all are responsible for our own actions and cannot bleme anyone else for them. I don't recall anyone else blaming Serbia for Macedonia's existance. Besides it was Tito the dictator who recognised Macedonia as that, NOT SERBIA. Serbs were oppressed in that country called Yugoslavia more than any other people there.
Far from it Peggy.
I like Serbs, and I think that my government will support Serbia in her endevors towards the EU and in any infrastructure or economic matters. If Serbia accepts her ethnic borders and stops aspiring to areas populated by other folks, (and I think there are plenty of responsible Serbs in charge who understand that), Serbia will find a natural ally in Bulgaria.
As far as most Bulgarians - I actually think that the people are very pro- Serb, but that's because most aren't that aware of our local dynamics. Not so with [...]
Read the full comment folks in government.
OK Valeri, I get it. You hate Serbs and the whole of Bulgaria hates Serbs too.
You know you are right in hating Serbs because poor poor innocent Bulgarian suffered so much that they had to turn to Hitler for justice.
Valeri, frankly Serbia will survive without your support but don't be surprised or upset when the favour is returned one day. Nobody is going to beg for your support but just keep in mind that other Orthodox countries are supporting Serbia.
Again, FYROM and Montenegro had their own reasons for recognising [...]
Read the full comment Kosovo and that speaks volumes about them.
Montenegro's PM is trying to save his own skin so by doing exactly as the is told is the only thing he can do now while FYROM doesn't even know which way is up.
You are free to remove yourself from Orthodox unity. I don't think countries like Russia, Greece or Romania will miss you terribly either.
Interesting bit of irony though:
The 1913 Greek and Serbian division, of the mainly Bulgarian populated land of ancient Macedonia, seems to still be the gift that keeps on giving.
The Greeks, wisely in retrospect, cleansed most of the Bulgarians living in their share of the land, by compelling them to move, by force, to what was left of BG at the time. We in turn did the same to our Greek population, sadly.
The Serbs on the other hand, cleansed the teachers, priests, any intellectuals among the Bulgarians, from their share, and set [...]
Read the full comment to re-educate the rest, if only because their language and culture are close enough to that of the majority Bulgarians, to make that a reasonable proposition - an interesting benefit from the much vaulted Slavic Orthodox brotherhood, I have to say...
Well, those folks are back now, in the wake of their shallow Yugoslav identity, reinvented as the magnificent heirs of Alexander the Great, taking Hellenistic heritage, for no other reason than they've been left with none other...
Yes Koinos,
but also our Black Sea coast was mostly Greek and that had been the case since for about 4000 years until the Balkan wars.
Also much of eastern BG was mixed with Turk/BG population. There was much population exchange and ethnic cleansing going on so things have changed, but others haven't - like Kosovo.
If you go to the south coast (in BG) you'll see older homes with it's only window towards the sea being the small toilet one. I've always wondered and it turns out that those are mainly homes of [...]
Read the full comment Bulgarian farmers kicked out of northern Greece, taking the place of Greeks kicked out of BG.
Any way those farmers had such fear and hate towards the sea, that they built their homes uniformly facing inland. A curious human note and such a waste of a view....
Valeri - I have to say that I have a German map (in the original !) dated 1916 that completely agrees with the one that you posted.
The Greek-speaking population were confined to a narrow coastal band south of Salonika (but including all of the Kalkhides peninsula), so nearly all of present-day Greek Macedonia AND fYRoM Macedonia are marked then as being Bulgarian-speaking.
Just a factual observation, and I make no present-day political point at all. But it supports what you say.
"That is the same excuse Albanians are giving. So siding with Hitler is OK when you have a reason?"
BG certainly wasn't the only one to do so. Frankly it has much more to do with the vindictiveness of the Entente in the so called "peace settlement" after the First War, than it had with Serbia. BG had no choice but to side with Germany again, because by punishing and isolating the Central powers, by reparations and other restrictions, the allies in effect set the stage for WWII and BG at this point was too dependent [...]
Read the full comment on Germany for everything...
Peggy I am not blaming anyone because the Serbs responsible are long dead by now. All I am saying that Kosovo was majority Albanian in 1914 when Serbia took it, (just look at the ethic map) and Makedonia was majority Bulgarian. You are crying about land, not people. We were crying over people, which we considered to be our nationals at the time.
I think people are more important than land and I for one wouldn't want BG to rule over other nationalities. Just don't expect support in territorial issues from any BG government. This is the history from our perspective and I have to assume that you were thought something different, otherwise Serbs wouldn't no naively expect BGs support on Kosovo - as far anything about you, personally - that's far beyond my sphere of interests....
1
Wed, Dec 09 2009 21:33 CET
" Lol Paggy,
Using history to solve current problems is almost always counterproductive. I will indulge you though, because you were obviously brought up with that peculiar brand of Serb "patriotism" that invariably leaves you with serious factual gaps. "
You can laugh all you want but your argument about me using history to prove a point is incorrect. For a start, I was responding to a statement which said that Serbs are to blame for [...]
Read the full comment Bulgaria's troubles. Valeri is the one trying to use history to back up his argument and I was answering him. So go and tell him to stop it.
Second, you don't know anything about me upbringing at all. You assume too much. Please state facts instead of your assumprions if you want your arguments to hold water.
Third, your Albanian pets are the ones using Illyrian myth all the time to back up their claim to Kosovo. Now that's not even hystory. It belongs in mythology.
You also said:
"Our siding with Germany in both wars is directly connected with trying to redress the injustice".
That is the same excuse Albanians are giving. So siding with Hitler is OK when you have a reason? I know you said you sided with Germany but back then Germany WAS Hitler and there can be NO excuse for that no matter how hard to try to justify it.
Like I said, perhaps if Bulgaria chose the moral and just side for a change you guys would not have so many problems. Don't blame the Serbs for your stuff ups.
Sorry, that was me, below...
Lol Paggy,
Using history to solve current problems is almost always counterproductive. I will indulge you though, because you were obviously brought up with that peculiar brand of Serb "patriotism" that invariably leaves you with serious factual gaps.
This is an Ethnographic snap shot of our neighborhood at the close of 19 century.
As you can see, the proud descendants of Alexander the Great are nowhere to be found.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Ethnographic_Map
close up:
http://www.reisenett.no/map_collection/historical/
[...]
Read the full comment /> So the point is that after the victorious Orthodox allies' war that practically cleared the Balkans from Turkey, Serbia, with the help Greece and Romania, moved on and occupied ethnically Bulgarian lands, (to use the term "stab in the back") as you can see, the southern part of Serbia since 1914 is half Albanians and half Bulgarians in composition, then they started to remake the Bulgarian majority and suppress Bulgarian identity there. There was nothing they can do about the Albanians, because they are too different - culturally and linguistically.
As our "allies" did that, the Turks used the situation to re-occupy much of what Bulgarians have liberated in Trace. One thing though that I have to give the Turks credit for is that they stopped at Adrionopol (Edrine, Odrin). With the Serbian attack in our back, they could've easily re-taken the whole of BG.
Our siding with Germany in both wars is directly connected with trying to redress the injustice.
Peggy, BG has made mistakes, but I think that the only difference is that we were trying to incorporate lands populated with people, who at the time were Bulgarian. Serbia incorporated lands that had very few Serbs, like Kosovo and Makedonia. This is why you never hear responsible Bulgarians talk about re-taking Makedonia. If the people don't consider themselves Bulgarian anymore - why incorporate them? Also as Ludvig said - the ethnographic balance has changed too and it will become majority Albanian - why would we want to incorporate Albanians and end up in upstream of the same shitcreek as our fellow Serbs...
Serbia stabbed BG in the back three times in the 20th century, not because she was so great, but because her side won the day - Serbia was itself beaten soundly in both WWI and WWII.
Yugoslavia was given to them by the victorious Entente after 1918 and we all know how that ended up.
All that isn't that relevant any more except to illustrate to folks like you, raised on Serb propaganda, why is it that we are not Orthodox brothers. Many, mostly less informed Bulgarians are taking the side of Serbia on Kosovo, but that's mostly an emotional response.
Most informed Bulgarians understand that helping Serbia continue the injustice of the 20th century is a betrayal to what BG went through in the last 100 years...
Anonymous Valeri:
>>It's not that - we don't want that impoverished land, full of confused and frankly lost people, reaching for a new identity all the way to antiquity.. <<
==========================
Something does not add up in your reasoning. Way back Serbs took away Macedonia from you. Now the Serbs have nothing to do with it, but you do not want to take back Macedonians former Bulgarians, because Serbia has change them, made them lost, confused, queer, poor people. O.K. I got that. On the other hand, didn't you [...]
Read the full comment notice tremendous progress that your new best friends, oppressed Albanians brought into the new FYRM creation? The Albanians have been multiplying so fast that FYRM population is approaching 50-50 parity (Albanians vs. Macedonians, i.e. former Bulgarians, according to you). Doesn't that make you happy, wishing to form a go lucky union with those brothers of yours (MacoBulgarians and Albanians)? Or you think that the Serbs have changed Albanians too, made them also queer, primitive and undesirable for your unification?
Valeri, so now it's Serbia's fault for all the problems you have?
Yep, Serbia did a lot of bad things to the Nazis and Nazi supporters. Don't forget whose side Serbia was during both world wars and whose side some others were.
Where does Bulgaria fit into all this?
Now if Serbia was so powerful to ruin your life I am truly sorry but I doubt Serbia ever had that much might. Perhaps if Bulgaria backed a winning side once in a while you would be OK.
Peggy:
"Why don't you go and get your Macedonia if it is indeed yours?"
It's too late. Serbia has had 80 years to erase much of the Bulgarian consciousness, and in the wake of Yugoslavia there's that queer "Makedonism" going on there that's just going to cause more troubles for the region in the future, as pretty much everything else Serbia did in the 20th century.
It's not that - we don't want that impoverished land, full of confused and frankly lost people, reaching for a new identity [...]
Read the full comment all the way to antiquity.. Princip just asked if we know how does it feel to lose an integral part of your national and cultural heritage - I explained that we are familiar with the feeling...
Peggy -
I think (as I am sure do others on this site) that it might greatly aid your dialogue if you clearly distinguished between quotation and new comments in your postings (using clear quotation marks such as << >>, and drawing a line
------------------
between quotation and your posting, as others do, might be very helpful indeed.
Valeri
Tue, Dec 08 2009 08:17 CET
Princip:
"Which is why I ask Bulgarians to consider how they would feel in the same scenario were it to unfold on them.
Let me ask my grandfather. He lived in BG still reeling from the Serbian theft and incorporation of Makedonia in 1913, 1918, and 1944 and the forceful expelling of Bulgarian teachers, priests and people who would not have their names changed by the Serb authority in Makedonia.
[...]
Read the full comment />
Serbia has not been our "friend".
Why don't you go and get your Macedonia if it is indeed yours? Who is going to stop you? Not Serbs I can assure you.
So go on, march into Skopje and plant your big Bulgarian flag there. I certainly couldn't care less nor could any Serb.
Princip:
"Which is why I ask Bulgarians to consider how they would feel in the same scenario were it to unfold on them.
Let me ask my grandfather. He lived in BG still reeling from the Serbian theft and incorporation of Makedonia in 1913, 1918, and 1944 and the forceful expelling of Bulgarian teachers, priests and people who would not have their names changed by the Serb authority in Makedonia.
Serbia has not been our "friend".
Bulgaria has NO friends in Serbia, or Greece this was shown in the second Balkan war, regardless of the religions aspect that most Serbs are trying to bring to the table here for obvious reasons. So it only makes sense that Bulgaria looks for new friends, not just in Albanians but most importantly the west and the united states.
This comment has been removed by the moderator because it contained foul, abusive or discriminating language
TO: tr3 zotet
You might be a nice person and all, but your unfounded opinions only pollute legitimate discussions. First of all, you don’t read. Second, you don’t read. Third, you don’t read.
Why would I enter a debate with physicists about gravity if I don’t really know much about gravity? The answer is I wouldn’t come to argue with them, just like you shouldn’t talk about issues you’re not educated in. You’re not stupid; you just don’t have the necessary information to carry out a legitimate conversation.
You might ‘feel’ that [...]
Read the full comment you know ‘something’, IE. Serbs = Bad; Everyone Else = Victims. But you have no basis to hold that opinion. It’s been formed by your community which is ignorant like most other communities. It also doesn’t read and it relies heavily on the media (which is a psychological/ paradigm control mechanism)
What happened in the Balkans now, and what has been happening not only in the Balkans, but Africa, South America and Western Asia, is part of the same MOVEMENT if you will. EMPIRE!!!
There are several layers of people involved.
Layer 1 = people who don’t read (they engage in irrelevant debates which don’t touch on the actual issue and are used to wage war; they respect and obey those in power! Why? … Because they don’t know any better)
Layer 2 = Agents of propaganda (Media, Politicians, Mafia etc)
Layer 3 = (Bankers, ‘Nobility’ and Industrialists) who manipulate Layer 1 for their own benefit through Layer 2.
Brainwashed? You should look in the mirror Mr. Layer 1 who doesn’t read books.
Bulgarian and Serbian people have been friends and will be friends forever, united by common roots.
Layer 2 who manipulate for their own benefit are the problem and have always been the problem. What makes their job easy is people like you who don't read. If you read more, Layer 3 would not exist because Layer 2 could not manipulate you as easily on Layer 3’s behalf. Layer 1 (you) would not be fighting stupid wars and you would have a much better life.
BUT ….NOOO !!! BLAME THE SERBS….THEY ARE THE PROBLEM … THEY ARE GUILTY FOR MY SHITTY LIFE !
Anonymous Bulgarian
>>I know that this is a difficult time for Serbia, but if the attitudes (nationalism, victimhood etc.) finally change, things will get better and the Balkans will finally become a peaceful and prosperous area that it should!<<
---------------------------
You remind me of (Bulgarian Rep.) Dimitrov's introduction, where he said that he will be arguing for Kosovo independence, wishing Serbia all the prosperity and luck in the World. Nice guys, the two of you, ahhh? You are very generous with somebody else's land, but if it was 15% [...]
Read the full comment or 10% of Bulgaria, say around Bosporus Straight populated by the ethnic Turks, to be separated, what do you think Mr. Dimitrov would argue?
@tr3 zotet,
using profanities does not help what you are trying to accomplish here. You want to put your best Albanian foot forward, not the filthy one. Plus you will have problem w/ the moderators. Hence, this way you introduce yourself, indirectly tell us about yourself, for whatever it's worth. We could know right away how far you went to school, whether you're a law disabiding citizen, or what? When you talk in your post about "ass" "scums" etc..., I immediately imagine that you live in a shack, surrounding by filth, wood insects, with bullets flying around, occasionally. [...]
Read the full comment
Anonymous Bulgarian
>>I know that this is a difficult time for Serbia, but if the attitudes (nationalism, victimhood etc.) finally change, things will get better and the Balkans will finally become a peaceful and prosperous area that it should!<<
---------------------------
You remind me of (Bulgarian Rep.) Dimitrov's introduction, where he said that he will be arguing for Kosovo independence, wishing Serbia all the prosperity and luck in the World. Nice guys, the two of you, ahhh? You are very generous with somebody else's land, but if it was 15% [...]
Read the full comment or 10% of Bulgaria, say around Bosporus Straight populated by the ethnic Turks, to be separated, what do you think Mr. Dimitrov would argue?
"Dear Bulgarian Orthodox brothers. These are the sort of people you are supporting."
thats in plural boy, so according to you all serbs are scum who commited genocide killed all ethinic religions incluing their own PM and orthodox Ukr peace keepers? all servs are slaves to politicians? and are also as pathetic as you? good for you pegboy
"I say stop now." or what? will you be scary and kill rape loot burn all innocent bulgarians in their own homes?
"If you lie with dogs you will get fleas.
[...]
Read the full comment /> Be careful."
in what kind of stinky ass did serbia pull itself from to be the dirtiest and most psycho chriminals in the balkans?
genocide rapists who give fake passports all the way to New York for its pathetic scum of criminals citizens to face justice, to Serbia were Saddam capture scenes are repeated dayly with Serb genociders being chased.
LAPAC thank you for the great ignorant post, at least we can know how avarege serbs think.
"Bulgaria is weak and has a tendency to sellout its allies!"
Why would a weak anybody sell their allys?? or are you thinking that they were serb allies?
your logic is 2nd grade garbage
"Albanians are drug pushers working with the CIA."
is that what you get tought from primary school there in that russian enclave?
Serbs, tried fighting against Empire 2.0 and lost by [...]
Read the full comment means of western PUBLIC RELATION (propaganda)
you still have rocket holes in your russian enclave renamed belgrade :) great propaganda !
and therefore, foreign 'manufacture of consent'.
You want to know what happened in Yugoslavia? Youtube: Dr.Michael Parenti ( Yale University Historian)
HOw about you type in google video scorpion paramilitary servs???
words vs evidence, you serbs are not good with evidence, just with fabrication(propaganda) :D have fun brainwashed one
Bulgaria is weak and has a tendency to sellout its allies! Albanians are drug pushers working with the CIA.
Serbs, tried fighting against Empire 2.0 and lost by means of western PUBLIC RELATION (propaganda) and therefore, foreign 'manufacture of consent'.
You want to know what happened in Yugoslavia? Youtube: Dr.Michael Parenti ( Yale University Historian)
Agron Forlani
Sat, Dec 05 2009 20:11 CET
Puknite serbi jebem vam mater ....
BULGARIA thank you.
Dear Bulgarian Orthodox brothers. These are the sort of people you are supporting. I say stop now.
If you lie with dogs you will get fleas.
Be careful.
"bulgarian
It is a great pity! with this our politicians support the creation of new boundaries. and also making the existing ones ever more difficult to overcome ... when will we live like civilized Europe?"
Civilised europe does not tolerate ethnic nationalists and genocide commiters or hourbouring of genocidal killers. Fabricator and lieers are not welcomed. Up till now only Serbia matches all the criteria. With killings and hatred still omphing out every day from that landlocked country.
It is a great pity! with this our politicians support the creation of new boundaries. and also making the existing ones ever more difficult to overcome ... when will we live like civilized Europe?
Puknite serbi jebem vam mater ....
BULGARIA thank you.
This comment has been removed by the moderator because it contained foul, abusive or discriminating language
Sorry, Bulgarian, but you ask me to check period near beginning of 20th century (= years 1900 to 2000), and so I give you and example from 1915 to 1918. This is not to mention the terrorist group IMRO that was backed and financed by Bulgaria for decades and caused instability in Serbia.
Because there are more of any race in some states in the United States ...like Kosovo...we should grant Independence to them. More Cubans in Florida Cuban Flag.....More Muslims in Michigan... Cresent flag......More Mexicans in California and Texas..... Mexican flag....More Italians in Albania....Italian flag.......More Muslims in the Vatican.... Minarets and Cresents on there churches.. Deal or no Deal ? All of the countries that are breaking International law by saying they recognize Kosovo Independence from a Soverign Nation .......hereby grants there land available for Independence by any ethnic population unbalance in those states.
I think the USA should grant Independence to the Cubans in Florida, The Mexicans in California, Yexas and New Mexico and grant Independence to the Muslims in Michigan. How does that feel ????? Now ???? Now Serbia will give up there land up if the USA does. If Russia bombed us for 78 days and then came here and make Statue of Medev like the did for Clinton in Kosovo. What do you think. Let's include the American Indians in this the Trail of tears ( Blood ) Do as we say not as we do???
This comment has been removed by the moderator because it contained foul, abusive or discriminating language
Ivan
Fri, Dec 04 2009 18:04 CET
Serbia and Serbs are not welcomed in Europe, this is a fact and until delivered it will be proven,,,next Bulgaria will support Vojvodina and so on until Serbia rests in peace....
So Ivan, where do you think Serbia is? In Asia?
Is that way Serbia won't be needing visas to travel around Europe, becuase they are not welcome?
This is only your wish and nothing more?
As far as Bulgaria supporting Albanians, what's [...]
Read the full comment new? Since when did Bulgaria side with Serbia? They always stabbed Serbia in the back and in keeping with tradition they haven't disappointed this time either.
Burundi argued in favor of recognizing Kosovo's independence, not against it.
It said that secessions are "of an entirely factual nature" and that "international law is generally silent as to their legality." And in any event, a ruling that the declaration of independence was illegal would have no practical consequences.
Thanks bulgarian great coment.West you are such a jerk you know why you are just internet hero you hidin your self behind a desktop.
once again all world knows who are serbs what they did etc etc and once again if they have chance serbs will do it again but game is over for serbs .
Thanks to all democratic people and open mind for helping us kosova in the worst days .
p s who cares what the serbs have to say.
To Jovan:
Well, now you changed the historic period... You have given an example about German and Bulgarian atrocities during WWI, right?
I am not saying that there were no atrocities (on all sided by the way), but that's not the issue. An important issue now is the mentality of victimhood... that has to be overcome.
But you know that, don't you.
Let's keep in perspective what was happening in the region in 1912. The nightmare is finally over...
---
SERVIAN ARMY LEFT A TRAIL OF BLOOD; Thousands of Men, Women, and Children Massacred in March to Sea, Say Hungarian Reports.
Special Cable to THE NEW YORK TIMES.
December 31, 1912, Tuesday
Page 3, 683 words
To 'Bulgarian': try using (non-Serbian) source of the books of German-born criminoligist and forensic scientist, Dr Archibald Rudolph Reiss. Many photos of Serbian women mutilated and raped by Bulgarian forces, men mutilated (amputations also) by Bulgarian army, to say nothing of the slaughter and mass graves full of Serbian civilians bones. The photos do not lie. Still waiting for the apology from the Bulgarian people for that. Archibald Reiss was his name, a German, who produced evidence that Bulgarians can not look at or even acknowledge even in 2009!
Jovan,
Please, check again your knowledge of history, especially the period of the Balkan wars at the beginning of the 20th Century. And this time, please, do not use only Serbian sources. Maybe then you will see that your claims for "treachery" are quite inappropriate!
I know that this is a difficult time for Serbia, but if the attitudes (nationalism, victimhood etc.) finally change, things will get better and the Balkans will finally become a peaceful and prosperous area that it should!
Jovan,
Please, check again your knowledge of history, especially the period of the Balkan wars at the beginning of the 20th Century. And this time, please, do not use only Serbian sources. Maybe then you will see that your claims for "treachery" are quite inappropriate!
I know that this is a difficult time for Serbia, but if the attitudes (nationalism, victimhood etc.) finally change, things will get better and the Balkans will finally become a peaceful and prosperous area that it should!
Jovan,
Please, check again your knowledge of history, especially the period of the Balkan wars at the beginning of the 20th Century. And this time, please, do not use only Serbian sources. Maybe then you will see that your claims for "treachery" are quite inappropriate!
I know that this is a difficult time for Serbia, but if the attitudes (nationalism, victimhood etc.) finally change, things will get better and the Balkans will finally become a peaceful and prosperous area that it should!
Serb population in Kosovo has decreased ten times over the last century,
and Albanian pop. has increased X 20.
More Serbs were forced out of their homes after the peace in 1999. then Albanians during the war.
The rest is just good PR of Albanian NY based lobby agency ...
Forgot to add 1915. Sorry to any 'historians' out there who want to be updated on Bulgarians stabbing Serbs in the back, mostly in an extremely bloody fashion in 1913, '15, and '41. Still waiting for their apology for their actions in these instances.
As many times before Bulgaria have stubbed Serbia in the back.
Never gonna go to Bulgaria on vacation again. It is not great anyway.
Thank you Bullgaria. God bless you.
Serbia need to apologize to Balkan people for all the crimes it did, so we can move on.
Serbia and Serbs are not welcomed in Europe, this is a fact and until delivered it will be proven,,,next Bulgaria will support Vojvodina and so on until Serbia rests in peace....
Jovan, Bulgaria has nothing against nobody, they just want to move on. After all, you cant blame Bulgaria for what Serbia did in Balkan wars. Bulgaria is thinking for the best, and quite frankly more advanced than Serbia at this point for the simple fact that Bulgaria is in EU & Serbia is not. Serbia has to follow Bulgaria's steps & you know what that means sooner or later.
Serbia's biggest mistake was killing the people, they should have just done what the US does...drive around with immigration vans and drop off the Albanians on the Albanian side of the border. That is how US is trying to stop its problem with Mexicans. Kosovo was a christian slavic majority in the early 1900s. After occupation of the area during the world wars Albanians were able to immigrate to Kosovo. Now with high birth rates and increased immigration they have become the majority. Once the majority they drive out the minority through violence and politics.
When [...]
Read the full comment Serbia went to do something about this problem and fight back, the rest of the world only saw that. It is like in a hockey or basketball game, a player pushes or gives a cheap shot to the other team, the other player retaliates and the ref only sees that and punishes only the 1 person.
I feel bad for Serbia and hope the ICJ opens their eyes and rules in favour for them.
jovan!Who can blame them when the Serb brothers are sadistic ethnic cleansing murderers?
Bulgaria has a history of treachery against its Serbian 'brothers' in 1913, 1941, 1999, and 2009.