Socrates and Odysseus,Turkish Air Force penetrated the outskirts of Athens,dont you forget it.Greece is unable to keep its Air Force on the air,no petrol for it to buy.As I said before,the boots Greeces army is wearing are not paid,how can they wage a war againts even Macedonia or Turkey.As for the name,Macedonia has a red line as well.The EU is out of date.Their Human Rights works only for the members,not for the aspiring nations.Barroso talks on this subject,but the EU members are ignoring the facts that both Greece and Bulgaria are abusing the very subject.Both countries were told to recognize [...]

Read the full comment the Macedonian minorities on several occassions,and the last one being last week.Before you open your mouth, read the vote in EU parliament.It is a fact,Macedonians do exist in both countries,and their recognition will materialize soon.No one can stop people from identifying themselves what they are,it is written in the UN Charter No 1.Read it and learn.

This comment has been removed by the moderator because it contained foul, abusive or discriminating language

The reinvention of ancient Macedonia.

Schoolbooks in the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia consistently represent Macedonia as encompassing a region that consists of FYROM, the Greek administrative district of Macedonia and parts of other countries. An astonishing fabrication of history teaches schoolchildren that these borders of "Macedonia" existed from antiquity and that their country was "dismembered" and Macedonians underwent a genocide by the Greeks.

Indeed, young children in the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia are taught through their schoolbooks that Macedonians were a non-Greek people that have inhabited the land of Macedonia [...]

Read the full comment continuously. They are taught that this exact land as shown in the maps of Greater FYROM, was exactly the same as that inhabited by the ancient Macedonians. The boundaries are shown again and again in their schoolbook maps to have remained the same from antiquity! These schoolchildren are taught that the Greeks expelled the "Macedonians" from the "Aegean" part of this country in the middle of the 20th century. Generations of poisoned minds have since the days of Tito and again since 1998 been taught to believe that Greeks expelled their "Macedonian" but Slav speaking forefathers from their ancestral lands in some kind of genocide – that mysteriously no international organisation ever recorded. Raised with this kind of modern myth, it is no surprise Greece is faced with an insistence that their country (FYROM) should be named Macedonia and that no other name would be acceptable to them.

It is sad but true. Furnished with this kind of evidence, one is convinced that people can be raised in schools to believe in anything whatsoever, and to be poisoned as children to hate a people for imagined reasons. Unfortunately, this tactic of the FYROM government also revives the expansionist policies of Tito against historic Macedonia (in Greece). It reveals a sinister side in the claims of FYROM on Macedonian history and heritage despite assurances made to the United Nations prior to the Interim Agreement. These aggressive policies are carried out at a time when FYROM paradoxically wants to join the European Union and NATO - of which the invented enemy Greece is a member. Even more ironically, the current FYROM government claims and says to NATO that this policy of inciting ethnic hatred against Greece (and suitably inventing history schoolbooks for this purpose) is in the interests of peace in the region.

In the school books, there is again and again a map of Macedonia with fixed borders. It includes not only FYROM but also the present administrative region of Macedonia in Greece and parts of Bulgaria and Albania. This "Macedonia" is shown unaltered from times immemorial. Something like this type of map appeared for the first time in an ethnological description in 1899 by a Greek named C. Nicolaides and had formed the Greek view for the 1913 Bucharest Treaty discussions regarding the ethnicities in the region.

Odysseus, I second you. FYROM would fall in 1-2 days under Greek hands if a war ever happen. Greek forces are ready for this opportunity. And if it ever happens the name "Republic of Macedonia" is accepted by everyone (something which will never happen), there are good chances Greece wants to unify his old macedonian kingdom with the northern stolen part. Albania and Bulgaria would help immediately to achieve this military operation.

Odysseus - I thought we had agreed to close this debate down.

Since however you wish to reopen it (in rather blood-curdling terms), I should point out that there is a fully armed "volunteer" Turkish air-base near Skopje, equipped with all the latest NATO technology...

But then, as we know, Turkey and Greece are both NATO member-nations, and so there is no prospect of this Turkish air-base in Macedonia ever becoming operational in conflict...

Oops, have I said something I shouldn't have ?

" BEWARE OF THE GREEKS ! "

Military Generals state that a 2 day battle between
Greece and FYROM and FYROM will fall !

FYROM will be under Greek command !

WAR what is it good for ?
Absolutley Nothing ?

( A Quick trip to the Undertaker ,
and good for the Economy )

I just cant understand why you FYROM SLavs are trying so hard to be Greek ?
Come on next your going to say you invented the souvlaki !

Before the Balkan war in 1992 you were all so proud to be Yugoslav !
When Yugoslavia split during the Balkan War and Serbia, Croatia, Bosnia, became independent countries, POOR little FYROM as its known now was left with no Identity.

So what do you do ?
You cant say your Russian !
You cant say [...]

Read the full comment your Serbian !
You cant say your Bosnian !
You cant say your Croatian !
So your poor people were left in the corner sooking of no Identity and culture.

"Oh hand on " said a few smart Skopjans.
We can be Greek. We can be MACEDONIANS !!
lets Steal the Greek culture and history to make our own Identity !
Oh we are so exited ! YES, YES we are the REAL MACEDONIANS !
YES , YES we are the descendants of the Ancient Greek. YES , YES we are the descendant of Alexander The Great !

After there enthusiastic excitement was over ...
The Smart Skopjans looked at each other and said.
"But we have a slight problem. All the history books in the Universities around the world state that Macedonia is Greek and Alexander The Great is Greek . OH never mind Greece wont mind. After all we are Orthodox same as the Greeks."

Well this Fairy Tale goes on , and on....
Another 500 pages....
Don't want to bore you any more than i have !

Come on people of FYROM !
See its all just a FAIRY TALE !
STOP Defaming your Orthodox neighbor Greece !
STOP Provoking Greece !
STOP stealing the identity of Greece !
STOP stealing Greek culture !
STOP believing your the descendant of the Ancient Greek !
Stop believing that your the descendant of Alexander The Great ( MEGAS ALEXANDROS ).
STOP believing that Alexander The Great was not Greek but Slavic !
STOP believing that Macedonia is not Greek but Slavic !

So you see people of FYROM.
STOP living in a DREAM WORLD !
STOP living in a FANTASY !

Just be proud of who you are !
I'll tell you who you are.
Your Skopje. Your Slavs !
Call yourselves Skopjens !!
That is a far better name than Macedonian.!
Just leave the Macedonians to the GREEKS.
They have been doing a much better job of the Macedonian identity for THOUSANDS OF YEARS !

Take if from me !!
I know because i was there !
The Odysseus BC
Homers Odyssey. The Iliad !

On that particular point, Odysseus, I do agree with you.

Unless anyone else sparks up pretty quickly, let us both agree to disagree, and close the dialogue down.

Konios. It seems we are the only two people commenting on this site.
Is there any one else that would like to comment ?
It would be far more interesting .

Odysseus -

You presume to quote Hitler and Stalin(!!!!) in support of your case ?

Your credibility is completely shredded. But maybe you have some endorsement from Mao Tse-Tung as well ?

Tell me more, though , about the three warring Greek "resistance" factions from 1944 to 1949 (ELAS, KKE, EADM, and some other Greeks products of acronym soup) that killed around 10% of the Greek and Macedonian population between those years in internecine conflict in the so-called Greek Civil War.

Some "resistance", some [...]

Read the full comment "success"! I wonder what the Germans would have achieved had the Greek "resistance" been more (or less) united at the time ?

I think we should be told. And clearly you know all the answers, so tell us, please....

" The Russian people will always be grateful to the Greeks for delaying the German army long enough for winter to set in, thereby giving us precious time we need to prepare.
We will never forget. "

Joseph Stalin, in an open letter read frequently on Radio Moscow during the war.



" Historical justice forces me to admit that among all the enemies who stand against us, the Greek soldier above all, fought with the most courage. He surrendered himself only when the continuation of resistance [...]

Read the full comment was not possible any longer, and when he had no reason not to ... However. he fought so bravely, that even the enemies cannot deny their respect for him... Thus, the Greek prisoners of war were released immediately, having in mind the heroic stance of these soldiers."

Adolph Hitler, Reichstag, 4 May 1941



" Our country, in which virtue is especially honoured, watches with admiration the struggle of the Greeks in Albania. we are so much touched, that, by letting aside every other feeling, we shout: LONG LIVE HELLAS ! "

Mainichi Simbun, Japanese newspaper 7 December 1940



" If there had not been the virtue and courage of the Greeks we do not know which the outcome of World War II would have been. "

Sir Winston Churchill, Prime Minister of the United Kingdom



" Hence we will not say that Greeks fight like heroes, but that heroes fight like Greeks. "

Sir Winston Churchill, Prime Minister of the United Kingdom



" Without Greek studies there is
no education. "

Leo Tolstoy, Russian writer



" If in the library of your house you do not have the works of the ancient Greek writers, then you live in a house with no light. "

George Bernard Shaw, Irish-British playwright




" How can any educated person stay away from the Greeks ?
I have always been far more interested in them than in science. "

Albert Einstein, Jewish American scientist




" I would prefer to be a Greek rather than a heir apparent of a throne. "

Ludwig I, King of Bavania




" Macedonian s. We are all here today in Persia for battle at Guagamela. For the FREEDOM and GLORY of GREECE !

Alexander The Great ( Megas Alexandros) Guagamela Persia 331 BC




Xerxes King of Persia states...

" You Greeks ! I will have you all put to the sword !
For Darius 10 years ago was leading a mere wave.
Now i am leading an ocean !
You and your 300 Spartans ?
The whole of Asia will descend upon you !
Our arrows will block out the sun !
Surrender Leonidas and I shall spare you and your Spartans. "

" Then we will fight in the shade !
When do Greeks ever count numbers in battle !
MOLON LAVE ( COME AND TAKE THEM )"

King Leonidas of Sparta. Addressing Xerxes King of Persia.
Battle of Thermopylae. 480 BC

Sorry - typo re Bulgaria. For "1978" read "1878".

Apologies to all.

Re Greece, though, the 1829-32 dates are apparently entirely correct. Greece won its war of independence (with some naval help from the French and British) in 1829, but the formal Treaty of Constantinople was only signed and ratified in 1832, when the Ottoman Turks agree to vacate Athens.

Treaties of Independence were rare in those days - the great impetus towards them only came in 1848 with the "Spring Of The Peoples" - so a three-year [...]

Read the full comment gap was nothing extraordinary.

Oh dear, Odysseus, you just ain't got a notion of satirical humour. A modern grown-up state can tolerate its flag being defaced: we Brits have got fairly accustomed to it over the years.

Somebody else wisely posted that Greece as a modern nation only started in 1829/1832, Bulgaria in 1978, and Republic of Macedonia in 1991. So that is when the "clock started ticking" for all three countries, and all the rest is irrelevant ancient history of interest only to academicians.

That said, your theory that Greece was solely responsible for Russian [...]

Read the full comment victory over the Germans in the Great Patriotic War 1940-45 is certainly a novel and interesting one: I shall get this theory peer-group reviewed by some historians that I know, both in Cambridge (UK, of course), and St Petersburg.

How many Greek tanks were there in the Battle of Kursk, as a matter of interest ?

OH ! Here we go again Konios ?
You must of noticed by now , that on all your replys Of your opening sentence you have personally attacked me with insults !
Your not an intelligent nor friendly person.
Well as you can see i return your insults with a devastating punch !!
So far Mr Konios i an winning !
You have taken the bate !
You tell me to " Get off this Site" And just who are you ?
I will tell you [...]

Read the full comment at the end who you are.
The government in Skopje is to understand that it cannot build a national identity at the expense of historic truth. Our common international society cannot survive when history is ignored, much less when history is fabricated.
Konios, i will tell you what the worst and biggest mistake the people of Scopje have done to the Greek people and to the Greek Nation.
The name issue and identity theft of your Orthodox neighbour Greece is far more shameful in what im about to tell you.
The mockery and defamation of The National Flag of Greece !
Removing the Orthodox cross from the flag and replacing it with the Nazi swaseika .
During WW2 Greece was the only country in the world that was attacked by 3 countries. The Italians , Albanians and Germans .
Greece held resistance enough to give Russia time to prepare for battle and delay the German army for winter to set in.
The outcome is that if Greece didn't delay the Germans , Germany could of defeated Russia and won the War .
Greece fought bravely. So did Yugoslavia and its partisans !
Greece had been in war with Turkey
for many centuries and not ONCE did Turkey alter and defame the Greek flag !
They had respect !
Greece will never forget nor forgive FYROM for this disgraceful defamation of the Greek Flag !
You sit here and tell me your not provoking your Orthodox neighbour Greece !
Greece in the near future WILL retaliate against Fyrom in one way or a nother !
So Mr Konios its time for you to know who you really are !
An incompetent fool and Blasphemous coward !

Oh dear, Odysseus, you really are "away with the fairies" !

My view - supported by various academicians - is that the ancient Macedonians indeed spoke Greek as a "lingua franca", just as St Paul did (if in doubt, look in the Bible !) A good Jewish Boy speaking a foreign language ? But St Paul was both streetwise and a very good linguist.

But this did not mean that the Macedonians' ancient Illyrian tongue was not used amongst themselves, although it did lack an alphabet (hence the paucity of written records [...]

Read the full comment of it.)

Turning to modern times, a great number of Indians (upper classes) speak and write English, but this does not mean that they have any part in the British state (indeed, it would be politically highly controversial to suggest so !)

So the fact that the ancient Macedonian upper classes spoke Greek is about as much proof of national Greek identity as is the current propensity of the Indian upper classes still to apeak English !

Nobody has suggested that the Ancient Macedonians were Yugoslav, and nobody (apart from you) has suggested any possibility of a Greek - Republic of Macedonia war on the issue.

Both Greece and Republic of Macedonia have more important things to worry about at the moment than that.

Get real, and get off the site (said he politely).

Conios,
I am living in the real world !
But not too shore about you !
It looks like you didn't comprehend
what i wrote in my previous post to you.
I gave you so many facts on why Ancient Macedonia was Greek .
Read over it again as i am not going to repeat my self.
As you stated Ancient Macedonians spoke and wrote Greek !
For a convenience ?
Come on i think your much smarter than that !
[...]

Read the full comment /> They read and spoke Greek because they were GREEK !
Well Conios they could definitely not of been Yugoslav !
As i stated Yugoslav people came to Europe 1000 Years after Alexander !
That is a fact and you know it !
You would be so ignorant and not be able to accept the truth that you would rather say and believe that the Ancient Macedonians came from Mars !
Rather than you accept the fact they were Greek !
And further more this is the Second time you ignore my question about a possible war in the near future between Greece and Fyrom !
Do you have something to be frightened of ?
Once the Greeks fight back you fanatical Fyrom trouble makers .
Fear will grip the others !

Odysseus - try living in the real world. First of all, no European country (with the possible exception of Lithuania) can be truly linked with its ancient past.

Secondly, Greek was the 'lingua franca' or 'koine' of the eastern Mediterranean for a very long time, but just because somebody spoke or wrote Greek did not mean that they were ethnically Greek.

St Paul is perhaps the best example of all - we know that he was fluent in Greek, as he addressed the elders in the Athens agora in that language (and [...]

Read the full comment - then as now - you don't address a public meeting in a foreign language unless you're bloody fluent in it !)

But he makes it very clear in the Acts of the Apostles and in the rather interminable Epistles to everybody in sight, that he was a Jew and that Greek was a second language to him (he also seems to have spoken Latin as well, given the ease with which he escaped Roman imprisonment on various occasions.)

So don't argue that because people spoke Greek for convenience, they necessarily were ethnically Greek. This is far from the case.

So ancient Macedonians may well have spoken Greek (or written it) for convenience. This does NOT signify that they were ethnically Greek, any more than the large number of Indians currently speaking English indicates that they are ethnically British.

QED.

Koinos Nous,
We have a problem !
During the Orthodox Christmas i was sober !
It seems you may of just had a bit too much alcohol on that day !
You didn't answer my question !
Ignorance i see !
Don't you think its a possibility war may break out in the near future between Greece and Fyrom ?
Even before Alexander I, the Macedonians traced their ancestry to Argos, and many of their kings used the head of Herakles - the quintessential Greek hero [...]

Read the full comment - on their coins.
Alexander’s father, Philip, won several equestrian victories at Olympia and Delphi, the two most Hellenic of all the sanctuaries in ancient Greece where non-Greeks were not allowed to compete. Even more significantly, Philip was appointed to conduct the Pythian Games at Delphi in 346 B.C. In other words, Alexander the Great’s father and his ancestors were thoroughly Greek. Greek was the language used by Demosthenes and his delegation from Athens when they paid visits to Philip, also in 346 B.C

Another northern Greek, Aristotle, went off to study for nearly 20 years in the Academy of Plato. Aristotle subsequently returned to Macedonia and became the tutor of Alexander III. They used Greek in their classroom which can still be seen near Naoussa in Macedonia.
Alexander carried with him throughout his conquests Aristotle’s edition of Homer’s Iliad. Alexander also spread Greek language and culture throughout his empire, founding cities and establishing centers of learning. Hence inscriptions concerning such typical Greek institutions as the gymnasium are found as far away as Afghanistan. They are all written in Greek.

The questions follow: Why was Greek the lingua franca all over Alexander’s empire if he was a “Macedonian”? Why was the New Testament, for example, written in Greek?

The answers are clear: Alexander the Great was Greek, not Slavic, and Slavs and their language were nowhere near Alexander or his homeland until 1000 years later. This brings us back to the geographic area known in antiquity as Paionia. Why would the people who live there now call themselves Macedonians and their land Macedonia? Why would they abduct a completely Greek figure and make him their national hero?
The traditions of ancient Paionia could be adopted by the current residents of that geographical area with considerable justification. But the extension of the geographic term “Macedonia” to cover southern Yugoslavia cannot. Even in the late 19th century, this misuse implied unhealthy territorial aspirations.

The same motivation is to be seen in school maps that show the pseudo-greater Macedonia, stretching from Skopje to Mt. Olympus and labeled in Slavic. The same map and its claims are in calendars, bumper stickers, bank notes, etc., that have been circulating in the new state ever since it declared its independence from Yugoslavia in 1991. Why would a poor land-locked new state attempt such historical nonsense? Why would it brazenly mock and provoke its neighbour?
However one might like to characterise such behaviour, it is clearly not a force for historical accuracy, nor for stability in the Balkans.
Skopje is to understand that it cannot build a national identity at the expense of historic truth. Our common international society cannot survive when history is ignored, much less when history is fabricated.
This action not only abrogated geographic and historic fact, but it also has unleashed a dangerous epidemic of historical revisionism, of which the most obvious symptom is the misappropriation by the government in Skopje of the most famous of Macedonians, Alexander the Great.
So Koinos Nous ,
Are you sober yet ?
I don't think so !
When you sober up then return to me with a reply !
Until then as you can see i'm the master of words !

Oh dear, Odysseus, what have you been drinking on the Orthodox Christmas Eve ?

To say - as you do - << This issue has gone on too far !
FYROM must withdraw its blasphemous provocations to its neighbour Greece ! >>

....is actually an assault on the sovereignty of a neighbouring state.

Firstly - where is the "blasphemy" ? To my knowledge, the Republic of Macedonia has not invoked the Holy Ghost in support of its case, so "blasphemy" cannot validly be alleged.
[...]

Read the full comment
Secondly, as regards "provocations", Macedonia has already changed its flag and its constitution in response to Greek protests. (If this were Africa, we would all call this 'cultural imperialism", and Greece would be suspended from the UN as a result. )

I think that Greece now needs to "get real" about this long-standing issue, before the World Bank does (cut to Greece's more pressing problems with its economy !)

The people of FYROM are already making territorial claims to the Greek Macedonian State of Thessaloniki.
Since 1995 FYROM is the only country in Europe to be recognised without blood shed !
This issue has gone on too far !
FYROM must withdraw its blasphemous provocations to its neighbour Greece !
All it takes is a few radical extremist on both sides on the border of Greece and Fyrom to take up arms and fire on each other. It will start a war !
Is that what we want ? [...]

Read the full comment

Aries - thanks, yes I recognise this as the Encyclopedia Brittanica item on the same subject. The only reason I didn't quote it myself is that it doesn't mention the curious business of who-ratified-what which went on under the Treaty of Sevres.

The original question (of which it is easy to lose sight !) is why the Greek government was apparently implementing the Treaty of Sevres in the Macedonian region, when:

(a)Greece hadn't ratified the Sevres Treaty, and (b) for other overriding reasons - the Turkish ones that you entirely correctly cite [...]

Read the full comment - the Treaty of Sevres never came into effect anyway !

This question still remains to be answered, and the answer might be very interesting as relating to the Macedonian region at the time.

And as we all know, memories in that region - on all sides - are long ones. So maybe somebody personally remembers ?

K.nous.
A more definite exegisis about Sèvres and Lausanne
Sèvres, Treaty of, 1920, peace treaty concluded after World War I at Sèvres, France, between the Ottoman Empire (Turkey), on the one hand, and the Allies (excluding Russia and the United States) on the other. The treaty, which liquidated the Ottoman Empire and virtually abolished Turkish sovereignty, followed in the main the decisions reached at San Remo (see San Remo, Conference of). In Asia, Turkey renounced sovereignty over Mesopotamia (Iraq) and Palestine (including Transjordan), which became British mandates; Syria (including Lebanon), which became a French mandate; and [...]

Read the full comment the kingdom of Hejaz. Turkey retained Anatolia but was to grant autonomy to Kurdistan. Armenia became a separate republic under international guarantees, and Smyrna (now Izmir) and its environs was placed under Greek administration pending a plebiscite to determine its permanent status. In Europe, Turkey ceded parts of E Thrace and certain Aegean islands to Greece, and the Dodecanese and Rhodes to Italy, retaining only Constantinople and its environs, including the Zone of the Straits (see Dardanelles), which was neutralized and internationalized. The Allies further obtained virtual control over the Turkish economy. The treaty was accepted by the government of Sultan Muhammad VI at Constantinople but was rejected by the rival nationalist government of Kemal Atatürk at Ankara (Young Turks). Ataturk's separate treaty with the USSR and his subsequent victories against the Greeks forced the Allies to negotiate a new treaty in 1923
Lausanne, Treaty of, 1922–23. The peace treaty imposed by the Allies on the Ottoman Empire after World War I had virtually destroyed Turkey as a national state. The treaty was not recognized by the nationalist government under Mustafa Kemal Pasha (later known as Atatürk) and the movement of the Young Turks.After the nationalist victory over Greece and the overthrow of the sultan, Kemal's government was in a position to request a new peace treaty. Accordingly, the signatories of the Treaty of Sèvres and delegates of the USSR (excluded from the previous treaty) met at Lausanne, Switzerland. After lengthy negotiations a peace treaty was signed in 1923. Turkey recovered E Thrace, several Aegean islands, a strip along the Syrian border, the Smyrna district, and the internationalized Zone of the Straits, which, however, was to remain demilitarized and remain subject to an international convention (see Dardanelles). Turkey recovered full sovereign rights over all its territory, and foreign zones of influence and capitulations (see Ottoman Empire) were abolished. Outside the Zone of the Straits, no limitation was imposed on the Turkish military establishment. No reparations were exacted. In return, Turkey renounced all claims on former Turkish territories outside its new boundaries and undertook to guarantee the rights of its minorities. A separate agreement between Greece and Turkey provided for the compulsory exchange of minorities.

Aries - according to my information Greece didn't ratify it either, link is:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_S%C3%A8vres

The reason for Greek non-ratification is apparently to do with the new borders that the Treaty imposed (even though Greece gained Smyrna and its hinterland.)

But other sources do indeed say that Ottoman Turkey was the main objector, and that the new Ataturk administration (after its military victories) had no reason to sign or ratify it at all: hence the Lausanne Treaty of 1923 with its radically different provisions (i.e. Greece [...]

Read the full comment lost Smyrna etc etc.)

K.nous.
The Sublime Porte signed the Sevres Treaty butthe governement
at Ankara under Kemal Ataturk and the Young Turks did not.

K.Nous.
Historically, Vlachs have lived on the plains of Myzeqe, greater Epirus both north and south Iperos,Thessaly, and geographic Macedonia, although some small groups may still be living in the Rhodopes. There is also a significant Vlach population in Romania (Dobrudja, especially Constanza and Tulcea), but these are colonies that emigrated from the southern Balkans after World War One. The Romanian Vlach population is estimated at 30,000, but elsewhere the figure mounts up to 80,000-100,000 of which approximately 50,000 are in Dobrudja. For Muslim Vlachs, this has meant complete assimilation to another language group, while Orthodox Vlachs, options [...]

Read the full comment of choosing a nation-state based national identity coincide with religious identity in Greece and FYROM. In Albania, these same routes are used to gain access to economic opportunities available in other states (Greece, Romania). In Romania The Western diaspora by 1980 has had a significant effect on the nation-state The Vlach language and identity issues, but it is remarkable that precisely Macedonia has been the center of the most vigorous language planning activities since the Republic of Macedonia became independent.

Aries - many thanks for this thorough and exhaustive exegesis about the 1920s origins of the Macedonian language issue within Greece. I note that the Vlachs took a hand, and managed to upset each side equally by producing a grammar to the Macedonian Slavonic dialect (of Bulgarian), written in the LATIN alphabet !!! (Just how inept can you get ??)

Two minor questions:

(1) where are the Vlachs now ? Have they all moved to Romania or Moldova, or what ?

(2) as I read it, the 1920 [...]

Read the full comment Treaty of Sevres was never enacted (nor was it even ratified by either Greece or Turkey), as it was overtaken by the Turkish War of Independence. Instead, many (but not all) of its provisions were enacted in the Treaty of Lausanne 1923.

How does this alter or add to the otherwise exhaustive and authoritative account that you have given in your last posting ?

(Easy question - difficult to answer, I know, so don't feel that you're under any pressure to do so ! This is a horrendously difficult area of recent history to research, and passions still run deep among some of the protagonists.)

To Peter und alles
Pietro mon ami I promised and I deliver
people who probably hold 1948-style views
people who genuinely believe in the "antiquisation" of Macedonia, and
The Gruevski clique
Peter you have been misleading with ”vasiis Dendramanis “ it is not Dendramanis but Dendramis and the story with the Abecedar originated as Helleno-Bulgar issue long before Fyromians took advantage .
The real issue was that the Bulgarian Excharque was schismatic respectively to the Ecumenical in Constantinople.
In Greece, meanwhile, the reaction against the Politis-Kalfov [...]

Read the full comment Protocol was peaking because public opinion stood fervently against the recognition of (or, rather, the creation of) a “Bulgarian” minority in the northern provinces . Various associations and communities joined in the protest. The following telegram dispatched jointly by refugees and natives of the village of Youmenissa in Central Macedonia was typical : Natives and refugees from the region of Youmenissa protest the Geneva Protocol and demand its cancellation. The Protocol enhances the prospects for propaganda in Macedonia and Thrace and calls for foreign intervention in domestic affairs. . . . The Protocol is an insult to our national pride; it will complicate the settlement of the “Minute Sheet” submitted to the secretary general, January 1925.Minor refugees and their brotherly coexistence with the natives. (Efimeris ton Valkanion, 7, 10, 25 January 1925) Moreover, deputies from Macedonia protested strongly in parliament . At the same time, diplomatic relations with Serbia were aggravated, for Belgrade abrogated the 1913 Greek-Serbian Treaty of Alliance signed just before the second Balkan War .Eventually, on 2 February 1925, the Greek parliament voted against the protocol. Some time later, on 14 March 1925, the Council of the League of Nations released Greece from all of its obligations related to the protocol.
The cancellation of the protocol did not mean, however, that Greece was going to ignore its obligations toward the minorities as those obligations had been defined by the Treaty of Sèvres. The League of Nations was clear on this matter. Eric Drummond, the secretary general. submitted three questions to the Greek government regarding Slavic speakers in Greece:
(1) What measures were taken by Greece after 29 September 1924 in order to implement the minority treaty it had signed on that day?
(2) What measures would be taken in case Greece could not comply with the terms of the treaty?
(3) What were the Greek views regarding the educational and religious needs of the Slavophones and what measures did the governmentintend to take to meet those needs? (Tounda-Fergadi 1986:136-138.)

At the end of March 1925, Colban met Vasilis Dendramis, the Greek chargé d'affaires in the League of Nations. Dendramis told Colban that his government intended to introduce, for the sake of the Slavophones, measures similar to those applied to Germans in Czechoslovakia and Poland. Colban disagreed, stressing that the cases were not exactly similar. It was hard for himto accept that forty applications would be required for the establishment of a minority school while in the same region a Greek school would be permitted to operate with fewer students. The principle had to be the same, he argued, for both majority and minority schools Two months later, on 29 May 1925, Dendramis communicated the Greek response to the secretary general: the Greek government maintained that no measure could be taken before the completion of the Greek-Bulgarian voluntary emigration that had been decided in Neuilly in 1919 and was still in process. He affirmed, however, that Greece intended to respect the terms of the Treaty of Sèvres. Regarding the third question, he stressed that Greece was open to any suggestions concerning the education of the “Slavic-speaking linguistic minority” but that the existence of a religious (i.e., Exarchic) minority was completely unacceptable. Greece would volunteer to examine only the possibility of religious services in the minority language The Greek government's reply communicated its new policy toward the Slavophones. They were no longer an ethnic minority; they were a linguistic one In late 1925, following a legislative decree, a department was established in Greek Macedonia for the administration and supervision of elementary non-Greek education. The new department was manned by three members of the educational council appointed by the minister of education, in addition to the director of the Second Political Department of the Foreign Ministry and three unpaid citizens, all living in Macedonia, suggested by the foreign minister and appointed by the minister of education. A counselor of education proficient in one of the local dialects was appointed head of the new department for a three-year period. It was also decided that only teachers who knew the local dialects would be appointed to teach the non-Greek classes
The establishment of the Department of Non-Greek Education was just a beginning. Following the decision to employ the local Slavic dialect in the minority schools, the Greek government entrusted to a three-member committee of specialists the preparation of a primer that became known as the “Abecedar.” The three members were Georgios Sagiaxis—who had been involved since the early years of the century in folklore and linguistic studies concerning Vlach- 6 ASN, S.343, No. 3, note by Eric Colban, 31 March 1925. ASN, R.1695 (6), dossier No. 39349, doc. No. 44274, “Minorités Bulgares en Grèce,” Greek Delegation to the Secretary General, Bern, 29 May 1925.
Filippos Dragoumis Papers (Gennadios Library National Library ), F.104.1., « Peri idruseôs idiou tmêmatos tês stoicheiôdous Ekpaideusôs tês Boreias Elladas para tô ekpaideutikô sumbouliô tou Pspourgeiou tôn Ekklêsiastikôn kai tês Dêmosias Ekpaideuseôs ».
Speakers and Slavic-speakers and had studied ethnography and linguistics abroad on a Foreign Ministry scholarship9—and two philologists, Iosif Lazarou and a certain Papazachariou, both native Vlach-speakers who also knew the local Slavic dialect (Makedonia, 9 February 1926) .
The product of their combined efforts was a primer in the local Slavic dialect but written in Latin characters. This choice caused an immediate, furious reaction by Bulgaria, since the use of the dialect instead of standard Bulgarian undermined Sofia's traditional argument that Slavic speaking clearly indicated Bulgarian ethnicity. Mikov, the Bulgarian representative in the League of Nations, expressed his government's discontent regarding the Greek initiative. At the same time, Ivan Sismanov, a university professor in Sofia, published an article in a local newspaper stressing that these measures would reduce the population of Macedonia to a “semibarbarous”condition (La Bulgarie, 23 February 1926; L.M. 1925: 229-232; Nouvelles Macédoniennes, 15 October 1925). Moreover, the use of the Latin alphabet was condemned as constituting a “rude insult” for Macedonia's “suffering Bulgarian population” (Central Committee 1928: 23). Macedonian pro-Bulgarian refugee organizations also protested, demanding the immediate introduction of the Cyrillic alphabet (Makedonski Nacionalen Komitet.

Aries, Peter, Sasha -

The position is almost certainly less 'binary' than you all seem to think. In other words, you could all be right, or equally you could all be wrong !

Let us try to identify the different groups we are talking about:

(A) people who have definitely been bribed

(B) people who have possibly been bribed

(C) people who have not been bribed

In category (C) we have sub-categories of (1) people who [...]

Read the full comment probably hold 1948-style views, (2) people who just love being awkward (an enduring Balkan trait), (3) people who genuinely believe in the "antiquisation" of Macedonia, and (4) the Gruevski clique.

So it's not a case of either "yes" or "no" - slightly more subtle analysis is required on both sides of the argument. (Maybe not from GMS - he doesn't "do" subtlety !)

Petraki
<<<< Here are the names who have been bribed: Branko Crvenkovski, Vladimir Buckovski, Ljubomir Frckovski, Radmila Sekerinska Nikola Galevski, Branko Geroski, Vladimir Milcin,Ivica Anteski,Maja Bojadzievska,Dzabir Derala,Lidija Dimova,Gordana Duvnjak,Gjuner Ismail, Ema Markovska Erol Rizaov, Ida Protugjer, Biljana Sekulovska Slobodanka Jovanovska ,Mariela Trajkovska,Goce Mihajlovskietraki.
>>>>>>
===================================
Man the persons were not bribed the stated that they were opposite to the anbtiquisation politics dictated by your diaspora and and that idiot Gruevski.
Janovski sorry my friend your are a relic belonging to 1948 it is not my fault and not even yours [...]

Read the full comment i can say somebody at that
time made a wrong choice.

1 or should I say Peter in disguise of 1. There are thousands of fools in Macedonia but the biggest fools are the ones who believe everything they read. You see Peter (or 1 if you wish), these are unsubstatiated fabrications which you and the rest of the diaspora are well rehearesed in. The amount of BULL that comes out of our compatriots in the diaspora has propelled rocketships to their fabricated Unza, Hunza, Bullza tribes in some fable land in modern day Pakistan. You fools remain a fantastic source of material for our Youth in Macedonia at our weekly [...]

Read the full comment uni. campus comedy hour. NO wonder the diaspora with their antiquisation dreams have become the butts of many of our native jokes. While you preside in your host countries in huge houses and bigger cars our people in Macedonia become slowly disenfrachised from your inflated views. You have a brain to think with 1 or Peter ( & diaspora antiquisationists) not to sit on it as you seem to all do. Its a shame that you divide our country more than unite us and in the end you cry about SDSM politics. Fools like yourselves are common but liars and deceitful elements that you all harbour are abhorrent. The day will come when our people will have deserved respect from you harlekins in the diaspora but while you don't even have a say in our domestic lives,butt out from these atrocities that you continue to commit. Macedonians will one day have freedom from the diaspora supported right wing and when that time comes our left wing SDSM will rejoice as the saviours of our real identity and not some concocted fabrication with some type of continuity with the ancient Greek tribe whose leader Al.Veliki and his father Filip died at the hands of their favourite male lovers.

Long Live the Macedonian Youth & SDSM.

To Sasha;in case you have not read "greece bribes Macedonian journalists,politicians to support Athens" Here is a Party you support in your comments throughout these sites."The 15 year-old scandal resurfaced again in Athens,in which current and gormer Greek politicians admitted to paying large sums of money to journalists and News organizations to spread Anti Macedonian propaganda, though without ever releasing the names of the receipients of these money. In Macedonia, different story. The Greek Government while paying their own journalists to spread propaganda and hatred againts Macedonians living there at the same time re inventing history. Athend had also deposited [...]

Read the full comment large sums of money to Macedonian journalists and politicians to support Greece in the naming dispute. Though this was evident since 1990, it went over the top after PM Gruevski took office. More than a dozen Macedonian journalists and several politicians support Athens views and propaganda immediate change of the countrys name. In fact these people support whatever Athens views are. How good are these bribes? Some of Macedonias journalists(see below) apart from supporting Athens, go in hysteria mode sending letters to EU organizations misinforming them of how terrible the Macedonian Government is to its people and neighbors!? Few journalists and organizations have been fined over 40,000 Euros each gor deliberatly printing false information after being challenged in Court by Government officials. The journalists paid the court ounishment(on what salary?),and continued to misinform. Athens keeps tabs on who received the 130 million dollars of bribes in Greece to spread propaganda on how "greek"Macedonia was, and this information is of "high national interest",therefore not available to the public despite challenges from Greek npaper (Eleftherotypia). In Macedonia, journalists and Newspapers on Athens payroll are not attempting to hide this fact. Some of them go as far to drive around in cars bearing Greek license plates! The following list is of Macedonian journalists and newspapers whose direct deposit accounts are on one way street to the Greek Government. The list is well known, and has been recently published by a Skopje based paper Vecer and TV Sitel. Where does Greece have all this money available from? Paying "Greeks" on average 1,500 drachmas (award went up each year) to report anyone who spoke Macedonian to a local police station since 1945. This kind of irreponsible spending eventually caught up to Athens.../Valentina Trajkovska. Here are the names who have been bribed: Branko Crvenkovski, Vladimir Buckovski, Ljubomir Frckovski, Radmila Sekerinska Nikola Galevski, Branko Geroski, Vladimir Milcin,Ivica Anteski,Maja Bojadzievska,Dzabir Derala,Lidija Dimova,Gordana Duvnjak,Gjuner Ismail, Ema Markovska Erol Rizaov, Ida Protugjer, Biljana Sekulovska Slobodanka Jovanovska ,Mariela Trajkovska,Goce Mihajlovski.Sasha, these are your heroes who want to destroy our own country.You support them,you are one of them who wants destruction to our own country. As to Aries,yes it is west to east for you.Facts are facts my friend.I stand 100% behind my comments as being true and factual.Happy New Year 2010!

Greece denies that there is an ethnic Macedonian identity. It has ethnically cleansed Macedonians historically, prior to its liberation from the Ottoman Empire and after. As long as it does not recognize the heritage of the Macedonian people and step up to the plate for past injustices in Greece, the problem will never go away.

Poor, Poor Peter you must take lessons in history my diaspora fiend. You don't stop to amaze me and now many other Macedonian Youth on campus. You should stick to independent arguments and distance yourself from this recycled haggis which Risto Stefov is so famous for. Develop your own critical skills in analysing sources because Stefov unfortunately has brought disrepute to the methodology of enquiry. Your Slavic background will not desert you Peter no-matter how many unzas, kunzas, and punzels you find from Pakistan to try and strengthen your ridiculous assertions of a connection to antiquity. Its coming on the [...]

Read the full comment point of embarrasment explaining to others, especially international students that there is yes those among us but especially in the diaspora who for some reason think that Al. Veliki, Filip, Aristotle, and even Constantine Veliki who founded constatinople are all our ancestors. I'm telling you Peter when you come back to Macedonia next summer invest in Gotse Delchev one of our country's founders and read about our Bulgarian roots and pride. Our Slavic pride should not Peter be humiliated just that you and other like-minded antiquisationists can create some type of pseudo narrative for our country living 1000s of kilometers away. Our people are proud of who they are and our identinty my friend will never change even if they do put a north in the equation so your lies are hitting more and more Delchev walls and will only continue to do so. Your silly revisionist politics will forever keep a stain on the memory of the many Macedonians who forever have wanted peace among all Macedonians regardless of their background. 2013 will be the biggest celebration our people would have ever experienced when Macedonians of all ethnicities Bulgarian, Greek, Turk, Vlach, Albanian, Roma, and Pomaks will dance to their unity of a common regional identity.

Long Live the Macedonian Youth & SDSM.

On this occasion, and not for the first time, I rather agree with Aries.

The Unzi-language words you describe could equally well derive from Sanskrit, which is widely believed to be the common root of all Indo-European languages, including both Greek and the Slavonic languages (and English too), but NOT Hungarian, Finnish, or Estonian.

So I am afraid your example doesn't count for much. Good try, though...

To Peter
<<<<<<<The ancient Macedonian language has been traced to Pakistan,the Unzi people who are the ancient Macedonians>>>>.
============================
my dear friend
with all my respects i think that
the have achieved the impoosible
you have proved that the sun rise west and sets in the east
bravo!!!!!!!!
my compliments

To Balkan Unity.Just a add on to above.The ancient Macedonian language has been traced to Pakistan,the Unzi people who are the ancient Macedonians.here are few words we today use as the Unzi, First in Macedonian than in English.Gaza-Stepping,Vada-Watering as in garden, and many more that are used today by the Macedonians.Do these words mean to you anything in Greek?.OK,Mr.Barroso,do you see a difference in the language before you came out and said "Republic of North Macedonia?"Macedonia is one country that was divided in 1913 by the Big Powers.Tell Greece to recognise its Macedonian citizens the same rights as the rest [...]

Read the full comment of its citizens.

To Balkan Unity.My dear fellow,of course it makes a difference from where you originated as people.There are two claims I dont agree with you,1)Macedonians have no ancient,present or otherwise connection with the present or ancient Hellens. 2)Macedonians have absolutly no relationship by ethnicity or nationality. Untill you recognise that Macedonia is not Greek,your arguments are just a bunch of bull.Greeces politics will sink Greece even farther into the hole of have not States.Furthermore, I dont like Sollana to get involved in Macedonias name talks is due to the fact, he has been unfairly supporting Greece againts Macedonia.He is biased 100%.As [...]

Read the full comment to Barroso,he is in the same category as Sollana.I would preffer Merkel to any others.Remember my friend,it does make a difference where you come from.You dont call the Peruvians as Spanish,they are indigenouse people,Spaniard are not.Macedonians are the indigenouse people in all geographical Macedonia,not the Greeks.So, it is different,is it not?.As per your comments,this wont make any difference for you anyway,because its all politics for you Greeks.

koinos nous and Greek Macedonian Supremacy you are all stupid. I am a greek and I feel not any satisfaction with the delay of entry talks for Macedonia. No celebration friends. Enough of this crap. Some people in Skopia say, me as a Greek I have no relation to the ancient Hellenes> but we come from Africa or maybe from Venezuela what als. So what man?
What the difference? We are still humans. Your very statement is extreme rasist. Mind you, one man from Africa is in the White House.
Anyways most Greeks feel no desire [...]

Read the full comment to celebrate for any failure of the
Skopja. Instead they are totally ffrustated With this redicoulous Situation. I cannot understand why you insist you are coming directly from ancient MMacedonians. If you really believe this then I come from the moon.
Let's be practical. We have many other problems to deal with. Why we in the Balkans must always fight and kill oushelves?
I don't know if Alexander 's Macedonians had a language of their own as you claim, but it is a historical fact, that no traces of this language found anywhere written in the many places Alexander went.Instead all the monuments and signs are written in Greek, and Greek was also the Language of the Eastern Roman Empire(Byzantium).
So if you so badly want to be called Macedonias, remember your idol Alexander, adopted (according to you ) the Greek Language. So you people learn the Greek Language and join Greece. That is the better solution for you and for us. Strength is in unity. This is not a joke. The Balkan countries finally must find a way to co-operate. If you feel so much strongly you are Macedonians, remember ancient Macedonians were so much interconnected with other Greeks they were one nation and their monuments are in greek. So learn Greek and join the Greece.
Forget about all this ancient crap. Your Language sounds Bulgarian whether you like it or not.

I write this for Peter from the diaspora whose Slavic background seems to scare the living daylights out of him. Our
Macedonian nation is proud of its Slavic origins and as Delchev always said "we are proud of our Bulgarian people of Macedonia."

This comment has been removed by the moderator because it contained foul, abusive or discriminating language

This comment has been removed by the moderator because it contained foul, abusive or discriminating language

This comment has been removed by the moderator because it contained foul, abusive or discriminating language

Sasha,stop with your malaky.You as a Bulgarian have no say about us Macedonians.Please reveal yourself if you are a man.I quess, you cant do that ,can you?The communists are ling gone my friend,they will never govern our Republic because they are agents for the Greeks like Crvenkovski,Frckovski,and Grorgievski a pro Bulgarian.We are not asleep on the wheell,you are.When a person has no shame to claim other than what this person is,than you are nothing!I predicted,Macedonia will stop the negosiations with Greece and it is comming soon.No nation can be denied its identity.Greece has no identity,because of the mixture of different [...]

Read the full comment people.Bulgarians are Tatars,it is expressed in their popular songs.Lets stick to the truth,and stop with the absurd fabrications.Read"Wheat,Hills of Blood:Passages to Nationhood in Greek Macedonia 1870-1990 by Karakasidou.Also Population Exchange in Greek Macedonia:the Rural Settlement of Refugees 1922-1930 by Elisabeth Kontogiorgi,Claredon Press(Oxford)2006.Read the outcam of the League of Nations in 1925.Read what former Greek Prime Minister Rallis said to "The New York Times in 1903.Read what Professor Skoulariki said,here is just a sample "The Greek arguments are not convincing because it is a fundamental right of all people to freely choose their name.We insist that our neighbor has no right to use the name Macedonia, ignoring the fact that durring the 19th and 20th century there was a wider region called Macedonia."Furtheremore,I will prove to you that Macedoniana existed by the registar in the USA.In 1860 Richard Casaus born in Macedonia in 1806,declaired as Macedonian,Ellis Iland has hundreds of registered Macedonias from 1900-1909In 1870 the census Ithaca,New York,1880 Macedonians registered in Massachusets,1880 a Macedonian priest registered in Massachusets born in 1840 in Macedonia,1900 Macedonians registered in Newville Philladelphia,1910,423 were registered born in Macedonia in Lake-Indiana,Indianapolis,Pembroke New Hamphire,Manhatan,New York,Springfield,Clark,Ohio,Pensylvania,Salt Lake City,Utah,Casllewood etc.These people came before the first world war.No one declaired Greek or Bulgarian,is this a coincedence?.I dont have to prove more that we are Macedonians to anyone.Facts always speak for themselfs,dont they?

This Peter is what you and your fascists are below just big fabricating liars. IT is you my friend who is not a real Macedonian but probably some diaspora wannabe ancient Macedonian
betraying our people for some crap
obsession with the Al.Veliki fancy dressers in skirts. Whenyou realise our nation you will always support the left wing who protect the well being of our people not the concentration camp mentality of Gruevski and his monkey Milososki. Be proud of our heritage not your fantasy.

To all the diaspora and internal fascist supporters [...]

Read the full comment of our country here is what our student Macedonia Youth have always pronounced that it has always been a government inspired farce that our Macedonian Youth were partaking in any of these so-called nationalistic public protests. Here to all our jingoistic nationalists here read your crap, read it and then explain to the Macedonia Youth why we don't trust your ideologies.


9/12/09
Skopje. More old than young people have presented at the protest in front of EU Representation in Skopje devoted to the deferred decision of EU Council EU Council on opening membership talks with Macedonia after Greece opposed an early start to the negotiations, Macedonian A1 television informed. Employees of the state administration from the east part of Macedonia told the television their boss have told them if anyone have not presented at the protest would not receive wage. In their words they have arrived with five busses and were free from work the whole day to come to the protest. No one wished to say who the organizer is or whether they have been politically motivated but confessed they support the ruling party.
Despite the protest was announced to be student most of the people have graduated long time ago.
The official organizer, the Student Parliament and the Union of Gymnasiums, denied of being politically motivated.

This farce has finally been highlighted why would our students support the most fascist government in the Balkans.

Long Live the Macedonian Youth Forever.
Students united against the fascists of Macedonia.

Especially the fascists of Gruevski supporters including you peter the Judas of all Macedonians.

Peter
<<We the Macedonians do pre-exist the Bulgarians and Greeks on this Peninsula,dont you forget that.
>>.
I will not forget it only if you properly document it.
because you may not know the exact
meaning of documentation i will
explain what i mean.
documenting a assertation is providing all possible information
about the where and when and how
of this particular claim; in other simple words the sources of the claim, asertation.

Sasha,why dont you show your real identity?Your anti-Macedonian comments are exposing you as a Bulgarian,and that you are.Your anti-Macedonian comments will not deter our people from achieving our goals.Today I am pro-Gtuevski as long as he deffends the Macedonian identity, language etc.I am againts Crvenkovski,Frckovski not because they are the SD but because they are openly selling our identity for money from the Greeks.What I mean is this;I will support any Macedonian Party that fights for our Human Rights for all Macedonians,regardles of their political,religious believes.We the Macedonians do pre-exist the Bulgarians and Greeks on this Peninsula,dont you forget that. [...]

Read the full comment

Moderator
With all respect due
the comment was quite revlant in nice poetic terms.

This comment has been removed by the moderator because it contained off-topic content

This comment has been removed by the moderator because it contained foul, abusive or discriminating language

Aries - As the Greek author Aesop said, viewed from the perspective of the elephant the situation is one thing; viewed from the perspective of the mouse it is quite another, and from the perspective of the cat quite a third.

Unfortunately Greece and (now) Greek-speaking Cyprus (I wonder how much it took to bribe them ?) have now taken the side of the cat.

It takes a lot to mobilise an elephant, but once aroused it can squash both cat and mouse alike...

Let's all bet meanwhile [...]

Read the full comment on Icelandic membership of the EU. It has the immeasurable advantage of not being situated anywhere near the Balkans....

This comment has been removed by the moderator because it contained off-topic content

This comment has been removed by the moderator because it contained foul, abusive or discriminating language

I think what happened with Skopje is the beginning of a tragedy on the international scene. A delay means more pressure on Skopje for the name dispute and therefore obligations for the next round of talks in march. While Greece showed a perfect sense of diplomacy, because it didn't exercize its veto. The international experience of Papandreou worked a lot for this case.
Skopje is desperately trying to find an escape, but there is no door... To change the name is unevitable, hehe!

This comment has been removed by the moderator because it contained off-topic content

An interesting article below:

"Macedonia expresses discontent with delay of EU accession talks

Macedonia is unhappy the European Union has postponed the startup of accession talks with the country because of Greek opposition tied to an ongoing name dispute, local media reported Wednesday".

To all the diaspora and internal fascist supporters of our country here is what our student Macedonia Youth have always pronounced that it has always been a government inspired farce that our Macedonian Youth were partaking in any of these so-called nationalistic public protests. Here to all our jingoistic nationalists here read your crap, read it and then explain to the Macedonia Youth why we don't trust your ideologies.


9/12/09
Skopje. More old than young people have presented at the protest in front of EU Representation in Skopje devoted to the deferred [...]

Read the full comment decision of EU Council EU Council on opening membership talks with Macedonia after Greece opposed an early start to the negotiations, Macedonian A1 television informed. Employees of the state administration from the east part of Macedonia told the television their boss have told them if anyone have not presented at the protest would not receive wage. In their words they have arrived with five busses and were free from work the whole day to come to the protest. No one wished to say who the organizer is or whether they have been politically motivated but confessed they support the ruling party.
Despite the protest was announced to be student most of the people have graduated long time ago.
The official organizer, the Student Parliament and the Union of Gymnasiums, denied of being politically motivated.

This farce has finally been highlighted why would our students support the most fascist government in the Balkans.

Long Live the Macedonian Youth Forever.
Students united against the fascists of Macedonia.

Gruevski and his monkey Milososki once again let down our Macedonia. He claims the alternative was losing our identity. The political rhetoric never changes when you've been using the same spin doctors for the last few years. Most of the Macedonian youth have caught on to his political rebounds after a national failure. More Macedonians are waking up to him they are realising that our identity was not on the negotiating table but rather our country's name. As long as he keeps the masses believing that the Greeks (& Bulgarians) want us to erase our Macedonian identity he will have [...]

Read the full comment a nationalistic following. The diaspora have won an enormous victory over this national failure. For the diaspora will gain far more influence in our domestic politics dictacting and bankrolling the puppets in our government and further dividing public opinion. While Gruevski stays in power we are to remain the country that could've but couldn't make the cut. As Georgi Spasov (leader of the Macedonian Think Tank DEMOS) said, Gruevski needs the Greek antagonism to stay in power which means no compromise. It would be ironic in deed if the fascists of our land were to negotiate our freedom. Its like saying that the Croation Ustase Fascists actually wanted Serbian neighbours while carrying out daily executions of tens of thousands of ordinary Serbian people. We will never forget.

Long Live the Macedonian Youth.
May the diaspora fascists build more houses, buy more cars and dream of more ancient tunics.
But please leave us alone!
Your pockets are filled deep with misery creating anguish. You don't live here so YOU shouldN'T have a saY IN OUR FUTURE.
mACEDONIA 4 THE mACEDONIAN yOUTH

"Lysergic acid"? You do not use to utilize such badly inspired insults with your interlocutor. Some sign of frustration?

Yes, I know I was right from the beginning about the december summit.

"In other words - and yes, Gruevski is a prat and his country deserves better than him"

>>>Finally you recognize it: "Gruevski is a prat". Hope Skopje will do more concessions like the one you just did for us now.

Oh dear, GMS, what are they feeding you on holiday ? Lysergic acid ?

Things are rumbling on with Macedonian accession talks as I always predicted. Greece's membership of the EUROzone is likely now to be of limited duration (DO READ what is being posted elsewhere on this site about the dire state of the Greek economy, please)

Meanwhile, not much will happen until the ICJ resumes its proceedings in mid-January 2010.

And as I think I told you before, not much happens in the last couple of [...]

Read the full comment weeks of ANY member-state's EU Presidency (unless one involves the "Troika" mechanism, which is rarely done, and only used for something really urgent like Iraq.)

In other words - and yes, Gruevski is a prat and his country deserves better than him - yawn, yawn, life goes on as usual.

If looking for unusual holiday actvities, try haunting graveyards at night (but beware Romanian ones - they all have watchtowers against vampires - really !)

La revedere

Should feel sorry for you, Koinos Nous, but I am actually bursting out laughing by the fact that all your EU pronostics/prophecies for december were wrong... I remember about the Greek isolation and Greek will be banned from the eurozone and the EU, and other silly things like those ones...

And what happened? Greece turned to its advantage everything while "Skopja-land" received another sophisticated/deturned/equivalent VETO and is still outside the EU with even EU members blaming them for no progress for the name dispute.
Also the bad comments from Gruevski and Ivanov after the [...]

Read the full comment decision were very badly perceived by the EU.
What's coming next? For march, it will happen the same thing and Gruevski's government will be certainly in big troubles. This pseudo-country will encounter many problems with their albanian big minority and only God knows what could happen then...

No, GMS, it wasn't "proved" at all - that's just the usual EU inertia at its most typical (the same happened in 1984/85 with Spanish / Portuguese Accession too).

Yawn, Yawn, is the usual response to the frantic and frenetic pace of EU proceedings.....

Meanwhile, what's happening with the Greek economy (or what's left of it !) Even at EU level - which rarely moves quickly - this is a bit of an urgent problem.

(Possible solution - sell off some of the islands to the Turks and [...]

Read the full comment their mega-rich friends, and the Greek economy will re-balance in no time at all. Skopelos, anyone ?)

The fact is that Greece even does not need a VETO to cut the EU ambitions of Skopje. This was proved yesterday. Even the swedish friends of Skopje were unable to settle a date for the accessions talks, haha! That's why > let's celebrate!

Greek Macedonia Supremacy - thanks for your posting, but yawn, yawn, yawn. No news here.

Firstly, it is quite customary for an outgoing EU Presidency to put particular dossier "on ice" for the last few weeks of its term of office (as we are now in), and transfer it to the incoming Presidency : that's what the "troika" mechanism is for. It was done with Spanish and Portuguse EU accession in the 1980s, so it is hardly new.

Secondly, economic factors begin to intrude. Macedonia always was an economic "basket case", but [...]

Read the full comment it is NOT a member of the EURO, nor is its not-very-good international credit rating any worse than it was before. So situation normal.

BUT - Greece has begun to drop into the economic depths (read Sofia Echo article posted yesterday about the likely drop in Greece's Standard&Poor rating to BBB, and Greece's current inability to get out of this mess unless it abandons the EURO, which politically it cannot do.)

Thirdly, as someone else quite unconnected has very recently posted on this site under a different heading relating to Turkish EU accession:

<< Too late Turkey! The Lisbon Treaty is in force now and that brings qualified majority voting (by nation state and by population)on any new member.

It would only take say Greece, Bulgaria, Holland and one other state of any size to prevent Turkish inclusion. So far those against are Denmark, Holland, Latvia, Estonia, Hungary, Austria, and Greece.

Also bear in mind that the EU would have to change its title to accept a non-European state into the Club. - And Turkey is not European by any stretch of geography. >>

Which means - as I said earlier in a different context - that Greece no longer has a Veto on its own, without support from a couple of other Member-States.

Sorry - that's EU life for you, I am afraid.

Meanwhile, enjoy your holidays and don't eat too many shellfish, as they can poison you (especially if they are from Albanian waters !)

I am writing you from my vacations to deliver those amazing news which I had predicted weeks ago (let's celebrate!):

"Macedonia is unhappy the European Union has postponed the startup of accession talks with the country because of Greek opposition tied to an ongoing name dispute, local media reported Wednesday.

EU foreign ministers in Brussels on Tuesday said the Macedonia issue would not be discussed until the Spanish EU presidency, which runs from Jan. 1 to June 30, 2010. The ministers urged Macedonia and Greece to do more to solve their name [...]

Read the full comment dispute.

Macedonian Prime Minister Nikola Gruevski said the events unfolded as expected, since Greece had announced its intention several times to block his country's EU aspirations if the two nations can't find a mutually acceptable resolution to their dispute.

Athens claims Macedonia's official name implies territorial demands over its northern province, also called Macedonia. Skopje, for its part, says the name is closely linked to Macedonia's identity.

"Greece has already done a big political damage and history will prove this. But we will not be broken by injustice," Gruevski said.

He promised that his country will step up its efforts to gain EU accession and do more to find a solution to the name dispute.

Macedonia has been an EU candidate country since December 2005.In an autumn progress report, the European Commission said Skopje was ready to start accession talks, and recommended member states extend a start date for the western Balkan country.

However, Greece has all along said it will block any decision to give Skopje a start date pending a solution to the 18-year-old name dispute with the country. In April 2008, Greece also blocked NATO's invitation for Macedonia's membership in the alliance for the same reason.

Macedonia's opposition parties have accused the government of not putting enough effort into resolving the name dispute, thus missing a chance at the Brussels meeting to remove the final obstacle to the country's two strategic goals, the EU and NATO memberships.

"The only chance that was missed is a chance to erase ourselves from the map of nations and erase our own identity," Gruevski said in response to the criticism".

just forget the name makedonia!!!!!maybe north makedonia,or slavomakedonia,butt republic of makedonia NO WAY!!!!!!!if you look for new enemy stay with this propaganda,if you look for friend,stop lies,stop propaganda,we the original greece makedonian we olways stop you!!!!!!!

An interesting article below about the deep economic crisis of Macedonia and why this country wants so much to be in the EU family:

"Macedonia expects the opening of the membership talks with unemployment three times higher than the average for the European Union, Macedonian Alfa television informed. More than 1/3 of the active population in Macedonia, or 350 000, have registered in the Employment Agency every month. The employment agencies said a work can be found but mostly for young and qualified people. With 38% unemployment Macedonia tops the list on this index in the [...]

Read the full comment region, media informed".

Peter whether you come from Aegean Macedonia or not it doesn't change the fact that your diaspora imbeciles are fabricating our very history of who we are as Macedonians. No where and I mean no where do the scriptures of Delchev, Gruev and others mention any connection to a fanciful, romantic affiliation to Al. Veliki. If these intellectuals, revolutionaties, and leaders of our people didn't speak of anything other than a Bulgarian background of our people, your diaspora liars have given birth to a new national narrative. This one point alone divides our people right down the middle. You can [...]

Read the full comment be a conservative or socialist it would never matter as long as our historical narrative wasn't fabricated to tailor support from men who adore other men in skirts. We support whoever has the guts to tell the truth that the Slavic origins of our forefathers like Delchev, Karov, etc., are not for sale to the diaspora antiquisationists who live in a dream world of Oliver Stone. The left may have dealt with the so called enemy but it is better knowing who your enemy are from up close than creating a mutant ethnicity duplicating your enemy's historical narrative. We are proud of our Macedonian origins and they are Slavic origins like many in our country know, but are afraid of the oppresive nature of our current regime. Tell me Peter,why only 5000 people turned out in Skopje last year to support antiquisationism (with free public transport). The reason my friend is that is is a superficial belief among our people if it wasn't for the diaspora who keep it alive on a daily basis here it would have died many, many years ago with only your 5000 local diehards being the remnants of some Al. Veliki descendents.

Macedonian through and through are the Macedonian Youth.

You poor man Peter. If the diaspora were pro-Macedonian then most of our people would end up in the fascist gas chambers of WWII. Wake up to yourself Peter your diaspora are destroying our country. We will NEVER lose our Macedonian identity yet your imbeciles in the diaspora claim otherwise if we were to put a North in front of our name. This is the most gross type of stupidity, creating a climate of uncertainty among our people just that you and your diaspora lot can claim some narciccistic love affair with the Al. Veliki and the other skirt wearing [...]

Read the full comment men. Stay on your side of the planet and as far as the SDSM is concerned many among the young support them more as a counterweight to your Fascist leader Gruevski. Our beautiful land needs no more morons like the diaspora around we have enough here (our right wing conservatives)already who peddle half-baked truths about our origins. As long as the Macedonian Youth stands up to what is just you and your simpleton diaspora Peter can dream forever in a land of big houses and big ideas but no real Macedonian guts to stand up to the misery makers of our land who you have helped to turn into some of the richest men in the Balkans.

Long Live Macedonia and the Macedonian Youth.

May the diaspora crawl back into their antiquisation hole and take the ex-boxer imbecile with them.

makedonian you be only IN your dream.be prout like slavs,stop steal greece history,pacet steal nation!!!!!

Sasha,rather than complaining about the diaspora of being pro-Macedonian,you should if you have not join the Crvenkovski and Frvkovskis party who have been destroying ou Republic.Sundly there is a patriot like Gruevski who defends Macedonias identity,you my friend are trying to destroy.For 16 years Crvenkovski and Frckovski done nothing for you but pocket enormous amount of money from the Greeks for selling our country.Just look what happened two weeks ago,Frckovski and Trifun had a secret meetting with the worst of our enemies in a secret restaurant.I gues they ran-out of money.Macedonians,wake-up to preserv our one small and dear part of [...]

Read the full comment Macedonia.

Why is it that Greece and Bulgaria are worried about Macedonia? Any reasonable person knows,they both hold Macedonian teritories that dont belong to them.These macedonian terirories along with its macedonian people were divided in 1913.Never before this date Macedonia belonged to them in any shape or form.So,why are they trying to steal our identity?The reason is,Greece would have no history to fall back to ancient times since they have absolutly no connection to the Hellens but, the Macedonians do have that connection to ancient Macedonia.The reason I am sauing this is,when the City States were occupied by the Macedonians the [...]

Read the full comment Athenian population was 90%Albanian and not ancient Hellens.Even today,Greece is 40% Albanians who have learned the language and therefore they are considered as Greeks,there are slavic speaking Macedonians,Vlahs,Turks Roma etc.,and Greece considers them as Greek through the knowledge of the language.So you see,to be Greek is to speak the language,regardles of your ethnicity.Greece has no ethnicity as such.What Mr. Barroso is asking the Macedonian government is to become same as Greece without their ethnicity so Greece can claim the Macedonian ancient and present history.Well Mr.Barroso,the EU is not worth to us as much as our identity as Macedonians.Our base is not like that of Greece,we do have ancient and present base.You people who are anti-macedonian need to learn the true history,not as the powerfull tels it(Greece).I also would like to tell you,wait till the International Court of Justice render its decision Macedonia V Greece.This time Greece will show its paws on the above decision,and it will help the world to decide who is the historical liers.

I'm not sure that "Makedonia Olways Greece" fully understands (a) the issue from both sides, or (b) what is involved in EU "Qualified Majority" voting (i.e. no one Member-State holds a veto) under the Treaty of Lisbon.

Will somebody else please explain to him - I'm getting tired of doing so.

no solution no e.u no nato,very clear by greece.the greece history is part of europe history,stop steal olways.you give and you take!!!!

As regards Macedonia's EU accession prospects, here's a very relevant point from elsewhere on this site (the item about Turkey and religious tolerance):

<< Too late Turkey! The Lisbon Treaty is in force now and that brings qualified majority voting (by nation state and by population)on any new member.

It would only take say Greece, Bulgaria, Holland and one other state of any size to prevent Turkish inclusion. So far those against are Denmark, Holland, Latvia, Estonia, Hungary, Austria, and Greece.

Also bear in mind that the EU [...]

Read the full comment would have to change its title to accept a non-European state into the Club. - And Turkey is not European by any stretch of geography. >>

The application of this logic to Macedonian EU accession is fairly clear - Greece (on its own) doesn't have a veto anymore.

(And no, I did NOT write the post above - check it out elsewhere on the Sofia Echo site !)

If Gruevski doesn't compromise for the EU he will again shove his tail between his legs and sprint home crying to us all on national tv that the Greeks will pay for their insolence (maybe more ancient statues e.g. Olympia, Filip). All Macedonians want the EU and those who say otherwise are just a bunch of nationalistic liars, sacrificing the health of the nation for the egoistic trend of some long lost love with Aleksander Veliki. The people want honest government not fascist liars. OUT with Gruevski and IN with SDSM.

Bonnes vacances, GMS, but don't fall into the "everlasting abyss and the eternal burning pit" as mentioned by Dante in his "Inferno", on the way.

I suggest you fly Ryanair instead, which gives much the same experiences without the expense.

Still not signing off, dear Koinos Nous? Well, we definitely cannot trust the content of your posts therefore.

I will sign off for the holidays to prove you I am not addictive and fanatic as you, and when I said something, this is for real and not lie.

I let the other interlocutors try to discuss with you (if they are able to communicate with you, something I really doubt anyway). But I will be back soon...

Sorry to all - the EU Regulation is often referred to on the Internet as EU Reg 2081/91, but is technically 2081/92 (as I originally referred to it). This also applies to Regulation 2082/92 as well.

Google searches under either "/91" or "/92" will throw up much the same result. But meanwhile here is an authoritative US source that describes the ambit of both Regulations in more detail, and (predictably) expresses its dislike of them.

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_7529/is_200907/ai_n32320595/

Greeks are not political fools. They cannot allow FYROM into NATO or the EU, even under the name FYROM.Gruevski is just playing for time. He knows he is wedged in a corner. When he comes to a compromise with Greece, he will flee the country-the same way he ran, with his tail between his legs in Bucharest.

No, GMS, the "feta cheese" case never went to the European Court of Justice under (old)Article 169 or (new) Article 224 of the Treaty, so your putative points about "Contempt of Court" / outrage a magistrat and so on fall (or fail). With the greatest possible respect, you don't know what you're talking about (much as that has never restrained you from commenting before !)

The issue arose first in the competent Management Committee dealing with EU PDO/PGI (Protected Deisgnation of Origin / Protected Geographical Indication) registrations under Regulations 2081 and 2082/91, where Member-States applied for [...]

Read the full comment registration of traditional "appellation controllee (AOC) / denominacion de origen (DO)" food/drink products outside the wine/spirits sectors (which were already governed by other EU Council legislation).

Many applications were made and approved, mainly on grounds that member-states had an existing AOC or DO control system for the product already in place. Let us stick to cheese for the moment, but French 'Munster' and Spanish 'Queso Manchego' all got unanimous approval from all member-states present, as they had effective AOC/DO systems already in place nationally, and all the EU had to do was to rubber-stamp this for EU-wide protection under Reg. 2081. So far so good; all member-states agreed unanimously, and the implementing Regulation was duly passed by the Management Committee and automatically approved by the Council, as is normal procedure.

The problem arose when the Greeks proposed "Feta" for PDO/PGI protection. It emerged that:

(a) there was no national AOC/DO system in place at all;

(b) Feta was/is an industrial food product typically marketed in the same 5 litre cans as are used for motor oil and diesel fuels. Walls built of such discarded Feta cans are frequently seen in Greek islands (I even photographed a few !) This, in short, is not an artisanal high-quality individually-wrapped entire cheese such as the PDO/PGI scheme is meant to protect.

(c) it also turned out that a lot of Feta was imported in bulk into Greece from Bulgaria as an industrial product, and then re-packaged and re-labelled as an artisinal product "worthy" of PDO/PGI status.

(d) Denmark had a major production of cheese labelled "Feta" (actually made under better conditions than in Greece), and objected at the highest level to Greek claims for PDO/PGI protection.

I'd better stop now, as this posting is getting too long, but if anyone wants to know the sussequent story about how Greece finally got PDO/PGI protection by using every trick in the book, illegitimate and well as legitimate - including at one point threatening to leave the EU because of it (boy, did we miss an opportunity there !), then post on this site and I'll fill in the rest of the EU Feta Cheese story.

(Sorry, Moderators, if this is getting off-topic, but GMS raised it (maybe he wishes he hadn't done so now !), and it shows just how Greek "diplomacy" in Brussels really works. And none of it is "contempt of court", as GMS seems to think.)

I'm also Macedonian from Thessaloniki and I'm not going to be called enything else. But FYROM has deprived all the other 5,000,000 Macedonians (Greeks, Bulgarians, Albanians, Serbs) of this right by monopolizing the name "Macedonia". Now, if i go to abroad and say "I'm Macedonian", nobody will understand I'm Greek. We have never seen anyone of those human-rights protector to say something about this abuse. Very strange... It's better for Slav-macedonians to see what they are gonna do with their 30% Albanian minority and how to make elections in a democratic way (without Albanian 23-year-old young people dead).
[...]

Read the full comment They even have war criminals in their government (Ahmeti, Boskovski), they support Tarkulovski and don't co-operate with the ICTY, they cannot even control the region around Tetovo. They should improve their economy, as Greece is fidding them and stop looking at my state, because the so-called "macedonian minority" here are just 3000 old men. I won't pay taxes to benefit just 3000 people no matter how much Gruevski is trying to sponsor Zinovito party. It has no meaning...

uhm im a 17 yr old boy who is very puzzled with the circumstances of the realtions of macedonia and greece with this so called name dispute i love both macedonia and greece though im full macedonian and refuse to be called something else we have held this name for thousands of years and do not see how it can be seen as a name in need of change at this point of time it is a right to the people of macedonia to be called macedonians and none other in the minds of a politician or a public figure [...]

Read the full comment we macedonians share things like religion and history eg alexander the great wich was a half greek in my mind a very good connection with greeks all that leads on to me wondering wether greece are trying to terminate links or just create inconviniances to the identity of macedonia i appologise if i have not written this well enough to couse a positive response of the greek public because i think that we can really get along and have a future together that can see major improvements to our balkan countries

I agree with the notion of Greece refusing to abide by the resolution of the ICJ.But the reasons are not in their advantage internationaly.If a country that is a member of the EU disregards the International Court of Justice,this one State makes the whole Union a stinking corps.Will the rest of the members will step aside and allow the stinking corps to reach their capitals?What kind of a signal will this send to the rest of the world?Since 1913 Greece has been breaking international and domestick agreements like no other State has ever done.Look at the 1925 League of Nations,1937 [...]

Read the full comment Varkiza,1945 with EAM.The 1995 agreement with the Republic of Macedonia.The nonecompliance with the ICJ Greece V "Ouranio Toxo"Vino Zhito etc.Is anyone surprised by Greeces actions?In order for Greece to get rid of the bagage is first to recognise the Macedonian and Turkish minorities in Greece.Secondly,Greece must give equal rights to its citizens of all ethnicities,religious freedoms,own schools for the children of minorities to learn their mother tongue.Only than Greece can free its self from the lies based on mythology.

The Feta Cheese case (under the EU PDO/PGI rules under EU Regulation 2081/92), was as blatant a case of EU fiddling and lobbying as I have ever seen. The Danes were the outraged Party, and the Greeks pulled every trick in the book, legitimate and illegitimate.

The Greeks got their own way in the end by dint of persistent "Molon Lave" posturing, but senior people in other Member States capitals (not least Copenhagen) have never forgotten nor forgiven.

I doubt the Greeks will get away with the same trick again, within lving [...]

Read the full comment memory in EU capitals at least.

Yes, of course you did not forget the feta cheese case, since Greece won it and feta remains a greek product. "Cela t'est resté en travers de la gorge" as we used to say in french.

We had the pseudo-Feta mark "Salakis" (a greek consonance fabricated name btw) in France whose taste has nothing to do with the feta. Then they were forced it into "fromage de chèvre Salakis". A nice taste of victory...

Yes, of course you did not forget the feta cheese case, since Greece winned it and feta remains a greek product. "Cela t'est resté en travers de la gorge" as we used to say in french.

We had the pseudo-Feta mark "Salakis" (a greek consonance fabricated name btw) in France whose taste has nothing to do with the feta. Then they were forced it into "fromage de chèvre Salakis". A nice taste of victory...

Makedonia Olways Greece (do learn to spell !) - I thought that Mythos is a brand-protected Greek beer. If it is indeed being produced in fYRoM, you have a very good legal case indeed under international trade-mark law.

Do you wish me to advise you further ? (I know a bit about trade-mark and "appellation d'origine" EU legislation, and I shall never forget the Greek "Feta Cheese" case.)

this is normal too be prout like slavs,you are slavs.stop the makedonian mythos,stop the propaganda,stop the lies.

skopje 4 ever,we dont need greek names we rare slav's and we are proud eat shit and keep your stupid name

Ok, let's be wise for once, Koinos Nous. We will wait and see for the judgement if it bothers you so much. But promise first that you will not speak about the ICJ on this blogsite before the judgement and the case is closed. Agreed?

Aries - yes, you're quite aright about the 850 billion euro. Blame our government and the bankers!

Greece's turn next.

As regards the GMS business and the impending ICJ case, I have now received very firm informal legal advice to stop posting any opinions in advance of the reopening of the hearing of the ICJ Macedonia / Greece case, lest they may be "contempt of court / outrage a magistrat."

I HAVE BEEN GIVEN SERIOUS ADVICE HERE, WHICH APPLIES TO ALL OF US.

So [...]

Read the full comment will everybody please note.

Gruevski's Horrible HairStyle, yes - fair game to comment.

Macedonia versus Greece in the ICJ
- NO COMMENT, PLEASE.

Koinos Nous abdicated from his "irredentist"/"nationalist" throne and let us quite for the holidays. Thank you my friend. God bless you.

Just remember this final word that you can bring with you in your travel back to Lithuania, oops, sorry to Skopje:

Greece is secure inside the EU and NATO
FYROM is unsecure outside the EU and NATO. FYROM is composed by a big minority of Albanians who are wishing to create a Great Albania, which is also supported by the USA.

There is a precedent [...]

Read the full comment for Skopje and its name is KOSOVO. This what will happen soon or later to FYROM or I should say "the Republic of Vardar".


Chronia polla & hope you enjoy this Christmas gift!

GMS.

K.nous
I nearly fotgot The banks in GB
need a transfusion of 850 Billion
pounds sterling...... how come !!!!
ceteris paribus it is quite a sum.

K.Nous.
I am afraid that you are heasding
for the rocks
with all respects due

Oops - sorry, before I forget, Greece got kicked out of NATO once before, in the days of the Colonels' Regime (remember them ?) So there is a precedent.....

Aegean and GMS - as an EU insider I have made my points, and let us see what actually transpires. Greece may be the "most important investor" in the region, but if this turns out to be Monopoly money invested through crashed banks, it may not be worth much.

Similarly, Sarkozy always tells his audience what it most wants to hear - that's why he got elected (apart from the fact that his wife speaks very good English.)

As for the Unanimous Vote, look at the Lisbon Treaty text (and ALL its [...]

Read the full comment many annexes) most carefully.

I'm signing off now - I've made my various points, and we'll see what happens in mid-January in the ICJ (can't say any more than that, or I am advised it would be Contempt of Court / Outrage a Magistrat. )
The final EU outcome will of course be heavily influenced by that.

Happy Xmas - Wesolych Swiat - Bonne Noel - I'm off to Lithuania !

@Koinous Nous, if you think that the E.U. or Nato will kick out Greece in favor of a NON-MEMBER of both organization you are dreaming. Contrary to popular belief, Greece is an extremely important stabilizing factor in the Balkans. no other country invests more in FYROM, Bulgaria and Albania than Greece. as far as France goes, Sarkozy has already said in his speech to the Greek parliament that he stands with Greece on this issue. I know its hard for you to admit it, But the vote MUST BE UNANIMOUS. There are no exceptions, just look at what Croatia and [...]

Read the full comment Slovenia had to go through. stop dreaming.

This article came from an italian journalist. Try to explain to him (not me) why you are unhappy with the content...

Also he did not say anything good or bad about Greece. On the contrary, he explains that FYROM's future is in jeopardy thanks to its extremist/fascists old-fashioned position on the name dispute. Greece is also "the sword of Damocles" upon FYROM's head. VETO IS THE KEY WORD: THE SWORD

On the contrary, Greece is peaceful and quiet about its position towards a such nationalist regime as Skopje. That Greece will loose [...]

Read the full comment the support of the international community and be excluded from EU are strictly ridiculous prophecies coming out from your mind, just like the one of Tito... I would bet on the contrary that the VETO of Greece will have irreversible consequences and FYROM may disappear soon from the Balkan map...

Lets get the truth out.Greece broke the 1995 agreement by their Veto againts Macedonias NATO membership on April 4,2008.Please, lets be honest on what realy transpired in 2008.Greece and greece along was the one who voted againts Macedonia. It is ironic,on August 3,1913 in the same City of Bucharest Greece had to deal a wrong hand to the people of Macedonia in the Greek occupied and in the Republic of Macedonia by using a single vote.Throughout the history,Greece has never kept agreements in regard to the Macedonian people.In 1903 the than Prime Minister Rallis coloborated with the Ottomans againt the [...]

Read the full comment Macedonian revolutionaries.In 1925 at the League of Nations,Greece defended the Macedonian ethnicity,language and culture.What happened between than and now?For starters,after the population exchange with Turkey Greece adapted the Macedonian history by fabrication.For Greece to change and come out with the truth would be a suicide for any Greek polititian.They even went as far as saying that the Christian Turks are the real ancient Macedonians.You see,the Greeks dont even know who they are,or from where they realy came from.If it was not for Prince Otto this state called today Greece would had a different National Name.Otto,was looking for his own glorification,not the Greeks.It has been proven that todays Greeks have no connection to the ancient Hellens and even less connection to the ancient Macedonians.We call ourselfs Macedonians because we were the first setlers to mix with our ancient Macedonians,not the Greeks.The evidance of this is in our Christian Churches displaying the 16 ray flag.This fenomenon is nowhere to be found in Greece proper.All Macedonian ancient findings are in the geographical Macedonia in all 4 divided parts of Macedonia.It does not matter how much the Greeks and Bulgarians are barking with their lies.Why is it both Bulgarians and Greeks are puting a claim over the Macedonian as being one of them?Is it possible that we the Macedonians are Bulgarians at the same time Greeks?No matter how hard both are barking,we are Macedonians,please get it through your bone marrow.

GMS - Thanks - Aciu labai (as we say in Lithuania / Lietuva; there is an accent missing on the 'c', which you will have immediately noticed, but I can't do it on a QWERTY keyboard ! Atsiprasau - sorry).

The extract you annexed seems quite impartial. To summarise:

(a) Nimetz and the Swedish presidency want to compromise on a "geographic qualifier" name such as Northern Macedonia

(b) The fYRoM government seems content with this compromise

(c) Unfortunately, the Greek government is NOT content [...]

Read the full comment with this compromise, and wants to revisit the entire issue and adopt its original position, plus to add various extra conditions of its own (and to impose them upon 126 UN member-nations into the bargain.)

Perhaps you can tell me what planet the Greek government is living on. This is not negotiation, this is a unilateral "diktat". Such things may be viable when armies have just occupied another country, but not during peacetime.

If Greece persists in this, it will set against itself not only the entire UN establishment but also the EU (with all its many subsidies from which Greece has previously heavily benefited.)

Certainly the Swedish Presidency will be in no mood to propose any further such subsidies (which lie within the Presidency prerogative), and even France may get sufficiently p*ss*ed off to withdraw its support.

The Romans had a phrase "Pyrrhic Victory" to describe winning a battle but losing the war, after King Pyrrhus of somewhere-or-other.

Is there a Greek equivalent of this expression ? If so, it might be quite appropriate.

At the moment, Lithuania looks like a better recipient of foreign investment. It has "neighbour" problems too, with the Russian enclave / exclave of the Kaliningradskaya Oblast', but that issue is all kept very calm both by Russia and by Lithuania.

I think instead you should have a look to this article about the consequences of the forthcoming second greek Veto:

http://www.transconflict.com/News/2009/December/Macedonia_is_the_name_issue_close_to_an_end.php

Here is the interesting quote:

"As December 7th approaches, a growing animosity can be felt in Macedonia. According to a Balkan Gallup opinion poll issued on November 18th, faith in the government has declined. The atmosphere in the Albanian bloc is also charged because of the statements of some politicians that “the Albanians will join NATO and the European Union with or without [...]

Read the full comment the Macedonians”. Another Greek veto will certainly incite nationalism amongst the Macedonian people. The country is not unfamiliar with acts of extreme nationalism and any failure in the EU Council meeting on December 7th could certainly reawaken those dark forces".

As regards the results of an ICJ verdict, I am doing an unusual thing and cross-copying a very wise comment made by Branimir Maksimovic (I think a Serb) on the "Kosovo" section of the Sofia Echo site, as follows (this is Branimir's comment, not mine):

<<The reality here is, 129 nations are unwilling to recognise such independance, which is why they granted it to go before the ICJ where a non binding decision will have great impact, wether someone likes the idea or not. >>

Reverting to my comment, Branimir says "the [...]

Read the full comment ICJ non-binding decision will have a GREAT IMPACT, WHETHER SOMEONE LIKES THE IDEA OR NOT" (my capitals). When the ICJ decides on Macedonia/Greece, the same will be true.

In the case of Macedonia, however, Branimir's figures are reversed : 126 HAVE ALREADY recognised the "constitutional name" of Republic of Macedonia, as opposed to 129 who have NOT recognised Kosovo. So his point is even stronger about Macedonia than it is about Kosovo.

I will let Branimir know that I have copied and used his text, out of courtesy.

Oh, my God, I am very scared now. Nah, I am looking for the zero consequences...

GMS - "Contempt of Court" / "outrage a magistrat" for an opinion published on a blogsite may not be anything like as unlikely as you think : I'm taking legal advice myself on this one (Moderators: please note! Once I get the legal advice, I'll let the Sofia Echo know privately).

Aegean King - Nah, if all that happens, Greece is going to get overruled (or, depending on what else happens on the financial front, kicked out of full membership of the EU and NATO.)

What might make a critical difference - leaving the ECJ aside - is if the fifth member of the UN Security Council (France) decides in fYRoM's favour. The other four Security Council members (Russia, China, USA, and UK) have already done so.

France's attitudes to geo-political issues are dictated not so much by President Sarkozy's personal family links [...]

Read the full comment to Greece/ Macedonia (as many in Greece fondly suppose), but by three governing factors:

-"la France outre-mer", i.e. the DOMs/PTOMs and France's many overseas interests;

- "Afrique francophone" , i.e. France's genuinely successful colonial legacy in ' black' Africa and also in l'Afrique du Nord and the Maghreb territories such as Morocco and Tunisia;

- "L'Europe francophone" - i.e. opposing the "anglo-saxone" influence within the EU wherever it can. France has already identified Greece as being - ever since Lord Byron - as being a repository of "l'influence anglo-saxone", Cyprus too.

The writing is on the wall - whether it is "MOLON LAVE" or "MENE MENE TEKEL UPHARSIN" I leave to others to judge ! Personally, I wouldn't buy any property in Greece for the time being, quite apart from the imminent financial melt-down there....makes Bulgaria look rather a good bet in contrast.

@Koinous Nous, you are really missing the point here man. To get into NATO and the E.U. the vote MUST be unanimous. Whatever the ICJ's verdict, this will not change the political will or climate in Greece. To let Skopje continue its E.U. and Nato accession process unhindered would be political suicide for any politician in Greece. Bottom line is, no matter if every single country in the world were to recognize FYROM as "Macedonia" it still would not matter because it is Greece that holds the keys to FYROMs future. Which is why eventually, FYROM will give in.

"One of yours, I believe....."outrage a magistrat" could seem a bit close. "Wishful thinking" might be a kinder and less legally actionable term to use".

>>>"Outrage à magistrat" for a post published on a tribunal, oh no, sorry, on a blogsite? You have definitely any knowledge of laws and moreover, I start to be afraid by your mental health.

But I have the great pleasure to inform you I will stay here for a very long time. In fact, I am gladly looking for the second greek veto next week at the [...]

Read the full comment EU summit to open the champagne and celebrate it with you the end of the european dreams of the Republic of Vardar.
Santé!

No, GMS, it is not a threat and it is not against you, though if you will permit me a gentle correction to your English (as this is after all an English-language site, as you yourself have pointed out), the correct expression is not "to afraid you", but "to intimidate you". In point of fact, I am doing neither.

The issue is a genuine one, and other blogsites than this could be affected. I genuinely don't know what the answer is, for the moment, though it might be as well for all of us to steer [...]

Read the full comment clear of statements like :

<<Since FYROM has violated the agreement of 1995, it was not more valid... Greece has even not to bring a counter-argument. In this case, I am afraid the judgement will be "nul" and without effects for the Greek side at least; for FYROM not sure though. >>

One of yours, I believe....."outrage a magistrat" could seem a bit close. "Wishful thinking" might be a kinder and less legally actionable term to use.

"Whether blogging comments on a newspaper site such as this could theoretically constitute "Contempt of Court", I do not know, though I suspect the answer might be "yes"."

>>>Is this pseudo-threat a ridiculous attempt to afraid me and pull me out of this blogsite?

Nicola - does the 1913 Treaty of Bucharest really expire in 2013, or is this just a myth that has grown up ?

I can see that its expiry could cause some disturbance in the Balkans, even so, possibly affecting Bulgaria too.

Worrying....

Technically, GMS, you could be in "Contempt of Court" in (a)
forecasting the outcome of the Macedonia/Greece ICJ case, and (b) in belittling the importance of the ICJ itself.

As regards (b), you only have to read the better-informed European press at this very moment about the Kosovo case, where Serbia is in the same position as Greece if this case goes against it. The Serbs are taking this possibility very seriously, and the heavy weight given by the EU to ICJ is underlined.

As regards (a), the ICJ has [...]

Read the full comment not developed much jurisprudence about "Contempt of Court" internationally, but national / domestic courts certainly have. You will not that no responsible journalist ever forecasts the result of a Court Case for this reason. (Sofia Echo professional journalists may wish to comment here !)

The principle still holds good, however, whether on International or national law. (It also holds true in the ECJ too, but that is not the issue here.)

Whether blogging comments on a newspaper site such as this could theoretically constitute "Contempt of Court", I do not know, though I suspect the answer might be "yes".

I myself would never comment on the outcome of a Court Case beyond stating the slightly obvious that "there is a real chance that X might lose, or that Y might win", as I did earlier in this column. I would advise other contributors to be equally careful.

"Contempt of Court" translated into French, by the way, as "l'outrage a magistrat" (grave accent on the 'a') I give this as it is one of those translations that is impossible to work out otherwise.

Maybe the yugoslavs can repay the Bulgarians as well in FYROM for taking their lands since 1913 and turning it into Yugoslav Macedonia. The Macedonian Greeks are very happy with their homes I like mine in Florina. Maybe nicola you can give us some money for calling yourself after a Greek name. Lucky, Lucky, Lucky are the people of FYROM to have Bulgarian background with Greek tribal name. Good Luck nicola 1913-2013 we will dance all night at the liberation of our Macedonia from the Turks and your Yugoslavos. The world is big enough to all celebrate at the square [...]

Read the full comment in Florina a big Choro with good Grrek food, dancing, music, and Greek wine can't wait for 2013.

No macedonian politician has the mandate or rights to change the historical name of macedonia. And so the name issue its artificial greece has no rights to the name.

2013 end of the burcurest treaty that divided macedonia, into three parts, greece is worried that european union will have to make revision and return the lands by law.
Hope greece saved billions for compensating the macedonian people that lost there lands and for hardship, genocide they suffered in the hands of the greek dictatorship.
sorry about the caps below.

NO MACEDONIAN POLITICIAN HAS THE MANDATE OR RIGHTS TO CHANGE THE HISTORICAL NAME OF MACEDONIA. AND SO THE NAME ISSUE ITS ARTIFICIAL GREECE HAS NO RIGHTS TO THE NAME.

2013 END OF THE BURCUREST TREATY THAT DIVIDED MACEDONIA, INTO THREE PARTS, GREECE IS WORRIED THAT EUROPEAN UNION WILL HAVE TO MAKE REVISION AND RETURN THE LANDS BY LAW.

HOPE GREECE SAVED BILLIONS FOR COMPENSATING THE MACEDONIAN PEOPLE THAT LOST THERE LANDS AND FOR HARDSHIP, GENOCIDE THEY SUFFERED IN THE HANDS OF THE GREEK DICTATORSHIP.

The Macedonian Youth (especially the united left) continue to be active. You should all stop your stupid bickering and look to the future.
Elena at least Sasha has a Macedonian name you have a Greek name, so who is the real Macedonian here?
We will never lose our Macedonian identity and as Sasha said, the students are behind the Macedonian think tank DEMOS and its stance against fascism in our country.
All should support the Youth of Macedonia and their struggle for justice.

It seems another diaspora minded individual like Elena thinks that the supposed accurate polls our government supposedly run show that 90% of our people (NOT the Macedonian Youth) are against a compromise. This just shows how distant our dear Elena is from reality on the ground in Macedonia. Firstly, when I always mention the Macedonia Youth I'm usually refering to the Youth inside our land of Macedonia (and not in your diaspora communities). Secondly, many of our Youth like 17 year old Hristian are questioning the very essence of our government's fascist antiquisation. If there is someone who is not [...]

Read the full comment a Macedonian here it is probably you Elena, possibly a Greek trying to sustain some type of discourse. The ICJ is only as good as giving one party or another a good kick up the pants but honestly this is the single most gross waste of resources our government initiated. The Conservatives under the instigation of their diaspora imbeciles thought it possible to sue the Greeks over the Nato veto which showed Gruevskis Boxing expertise on camera on the bucharest airport tarmac openly sobbing his failure and newly directed threats to the Greeks. It takes idiots like Gruevski to waste money on statues, falsified encyclopedia's, etc., and overlook our country's current unemployment debacle, lack of sufficient infrastructure, rise of nationalism and subsequent racism against many in our minority, especially the Albanians. You see Elena obviously you live in one of those huge diaspora houses driving an even bigger car but here the majority of our Macedonian YOuth are unemployed, directionless, and becoming ever more angry. When the december riots took place in Athens last year many of our Youth at the universities especially in Skopje were contemplating what Gruevski would have done if we destroyed his fake dreams. As long as you live in your fabricated antiquisation world Elena with your love of the GReek Al. Veliki, leave us who honour our forefathers Gotse Delchev & co. to revere the true heroes of modern Macedonia. Today the Youth of Macedonia have woken up to the imbeciles who run our country and to the idiots (diaspora goons) who bankroll their policies.
In the future Elena when you speak about our Macedonian Youth make sure you make clear that your views are those of only one individual, and as Vasko Gligorov rightly pointd out on campus, they are only as important as the current state of affairs.
Long Live the Macedonian Youth forever.
May the diaspora fascists build more houses, buy more cars and dream of more ancient tunics but please leave us alone your pockets are filled deep with misery creating anguish. You don't live here so YOU shouldN'T have a saY IN OUR FUTURE.
mACEDONIA 4 THE mACEDONIAN yOUTH

uhm im a 17 yr old boy who is very puzzled with the circumstances of the realtions of macedonia and greece with this so called name dispute i love both macedonia and greece though im full macedonian and refuse to be called something else we have held this name for thousands of years and do not see how it can be seen as a name in need of change at this point of time it is a right to the people of macedonia to be called macedonians and none other in the minds of a politician or a public figure [...]

Read the full comment we macedonians share things like religion and history eg alexander the great wich was a half greek in my mind a very good connection with greeks all that leads on to me wondering wether greece are trying to terminate links or just create inconviniances to the identity of macedonia i appologise if i have not written this well enough to couse a positive response of the greek public because i think that we can really get along and have a future together that can see major improvements to our balkan countries

Facts are facts - black is always black & white is always white - the rest is "POLITICS".

The results have been falsified by a wrong analysis. I am pleased to do the corrections once again with the best realistic and methodic approach.

"Firstly,let's take the "givens". I take it that everybody agrees that Gruevski is hardly the world's best Prime Minister, and that Papandreou is far more skilled and experienced."

>>>Agreed there, but it is more : Disadvantage/handicap for FYROM: -10)

"Secondly, as Niko rightly says, no Greek Prime Minister can now concede the 'name' point, given that 90% of the Greek electorate - of [...]

Read the full comment all Parties -are firmly in support of it. (fYRoM may be in an easier position to agree a geographic qualifier such as "Northern Macedonia")".

>>>With accepting "Northern Macedonia", FYROM would recognize de facto not only the non-exclusive use of the name/culture/history of Macedonia, but also the greek supremacy of Macedonia.Indeed, according to the proposals submitted by the United Nations, Greece would not have to change the name/add a qualifier to their region which will remain - forever- "Macedonia". On the contrary, "Northern Macedonia" will seriously diminish the "Alexandrian" ambitions of Skopje.

>>>Score: Advantage for Greece: + cinq points

Thirdly, as Elena rightly says, the ICJ has no direct enforcement powers, but has already accepted the indictment, opened the case, and heard the Macedonian side of the argument. Greece must come up with a credible counter-argument - sufficient to win the case -by mid-January 2010 (which is very soon), and shouting "Molon Lave" may not be quite enough.

>>>I have already explained this situation, but Koinos Akous did not "hear" it. Since FYROM has violated the agreement of 1995, it was not more valid... Greece has even not to bring a counter-argument. In this case, I am afraid the judgement will be "nul" and without effects for the Greek side at least; for FYROM not sure though.
>>>Score: zéro point ou cinq points for Greece

"Fourthly, to let matters progress quite so far in the ICJ was a mistake by Greece (ok, the Papandreou government can blame the Karamanlis government, and vice versa, but it don't help at this point, except maybe politically within Greece.)
Score: zéro point: argument unvalid, do not justify an advantage for FYROM.

"Finally, as Elena again says, once the ICJ DOES pronounce, it will have a very wide but indirect international effect, and its verdict cannot be ignored (sorry - Greek Mac Sup, Greece can't just ignore it if it doesn't like it)
Advantage - strictly nul points, as nobody can predict the verdict of the ICJ and it would be quite wrong to do so. Unofficially: Macedonia deux points, as the case has got so far already".

>>>The question is not if Greece would ignore or not the ICJ. Simply it will have any impact on the present situation with the name issue. If you want an objective opinion, I would say the ICJ is a useless action from FYROM which will be perceived as "childish" and counterproductive by the EU, since it will not help to create a good climate for the negociations around the name and will delay more this problem. The EU members will loose patience with FYROM and Greece will still be the key for the european/nato dreams of Skopje.
>>>Advantage Greece: cinq points

Overall, there is no utility to count the points in favor of Greece, because Greece has nothing to be afraid of. That Greece will be "pressurized" and "isolated" by its EU co-members are part of a grotesque myth. With a serious international and experienced personality as Papandreou, Greece has much more credibility than this puppet of Gruevski.

On the other hand, the strategy of FYROM is the worst they could find. "L'Arym brasse du vent" as we use to say in french...
There is no doubt it will have bad consequences. The fascist propaganda of FYROM is going nowhere and cannot be tolerated neither by the EU and NATO.

After this polite and detailed answere, I wish "une bonne soirée" to my friend Koinos Pous.

Respectfully yours,
GMS

Macedonia's agreement with the EU sets out benchmarks that it must meet prior to a membership invitation. The "name issue" was never on this list. This list is usually referred to as "Membership Action Plan", which sets out membership criteria.

Greece (or its supporters) can shout about how the issue "should" be resolved, and the EU can agree that it "should" be resolved, but what none can do is mandate this, as it would break an existing EU agreement. Any Veto from Greece will simply add fuel to the ICJ opinion of Greece, and potentially see [...]

Read the full comment another case comming their way.

The ICJ ruling (whichever direction it falls)will have very little effect on the EU or NATO. Indeed Greece has simply ignored previous rulings from this body with impunity.

BUT, It will resonate through the UN (who effectively own the ICJ). And could lead to the UN Security council (all 20 odd members of it) voting on wether to accept RoM at the UN, somewhere where Greece has no veto.

Once the UN punishes Greece by recognising RoM (which isn't outside the realms of possibility), then NATO and the EU will have no choice but to recognise RoM as FYROM will no longer exist.

Had Greece felt that FYROM had broken the UN interim accord prior to the Bucharest NATO summit, then the ICJ was the place to say this, not the NATO summit.

Karamanlis decided to invoke the VETO to try and secure his place in Greek politics. The shooting of a Greek kid by the police made this decision somewhat moot, retrospectively.

Greeks may dismiss the ICJ, but the rest of the world, and the UN doesn't.

Next year will perhaps see a ruling and recomendation (and a swift appeal).

It doesn't pay RoM to negotiate in actuality, simply to appear to be negotiating. The Greek methods will see RoM winning in time, not the Greek arguments.

I think a bit of an attempt at objective analysis might be helpful here, before tempers get too heated.

Firstly,let's take the "givens". I take it that everybody agrees that Gruevski is hardly the world's best Prime Minister, and that Papandreou is far more skilled and experienced. (Advantage - Greece: cinq points)

Secondly, as Niko rightly says, no Greek Prime Minister can now concede the 'name' point, given that 90% of the Greek electorate - of all Parties -are firmly in support of it. (fYRoM may be in an easier position to [...]

Read the full comment agree a geographic qualifier such as "Northern Macedonia") Advantage: neither side (nul points).

Thirdly, as Elena rightly says, the ICJ has no direct enforcement powers, but has already accepted the indictment, opened the case, and heard the Macedonian side of the argument. Greece must come up with a credible counter-argument - sufficient to win the case -by mid-January 2010 (which is very soon), and shouting "Molon Lave" may not be quite enough. Advantage: Macedonia (cinq points).

Fourthly, to let matters progress quite so far in the ICJ was a mistake by Greece (ok, the Papandreou government can blame the Karamanlis government, and vice versa, but it don't help at this point, except maybe politically within Greece.) Advantage: Macedonia, cinq points.

Finally, as Elena again says, once the ICJ DOES pronounce, it will have a very wide but indirect international effect, and its verdict cannot be ignored (sorry - Greek Mac Sup, Greece can't just ignore it if it doesn't like it)
Advantage - strictly nul points, as nobody can predict the verdict of the ICJ and it would be quite wrong to do so. Unofficially: Macedonia deux points, as the case has got so far already.

Overall, Macedonia ahead by a very narrow margin. One would urge the Greek government to take this case VERY seriously from now on, as its verdict (once it is pronounced) cannot be ignored, and it is "cloud cuckoo land" to pretend otherwise.

Posting "Molon Lave" on this site, or shouting it in the streets of Athens, will achieve nothing (except maybe to make people feel better!)

<<The mills of the International Courts grind slow, but they grind exceeding small.>> (Not my saying - English, seventeenth century. I'm sure Grek Mac Sup can come up with the French equivalent)

This comment has been removed by the moderator because it contained foul, abusive or discriminating language

It does not matter what the ICJ says to Greece. Greece will do what is best for its people. To let you keep the name Macedonia would be political suicide for any politician in Greece. listen here is the deal, Greece holds all the cards. Greece holds the key to FYROMs future. whether you like it or not FYROM will comply with Greece eventually or else remain a backwater in the balkans.

"Macedonia has taken you to court over this. On January 20, 2010, at the International Court of Justice, Greece will be required to answer whether it has opposed Macedonia or not. Yes or No. If it has, it is contrary to the 1995 Agreement".

>>>No risk for Greece once again. This agreement was already transgressed by Skopje before Greece exercized its veto during the NATO summit. Therefore the agreement was not longer valid... No agreement, then no consequences: The greek veto was perfectly legal and untouchable.

On the other hand, FYROM is [...]

Read the full comment sinking more and more, since I would not be surprised if the judgment would create more damages to the economy of the Skopjans than anything else...

Your theories to reverse the unevitable VETO of Greece with the help of the other EU members is really utopic. Wait and see in next week in the EU summit. The date of the accession talks for Skopje may even not be part of the EU agenda...

I think Elena's thoughtful analysis is spot-on.

The ICJ judgment (as she says) is not directly internationally enforceable, but it will be heavily influential on EU member-states and NATO member-nations, who will find a way of firmly binding Greece's hands if need be.

(The old technique used to be to turn off all the microphones whenever the delegation in question started speaking, but there are more sophisicated techniques than that available these days.)

how prout you are now fyromanian,new nazi nation???????????????fasistic you are olways and stealer,shame on you fyromanian.

Gligorov is far from a leader - he was a lone nutball. You really seem to have little idea about Macedonia.

The reality is - your government is about to "oppose" Macedonia's entry into the EU. Something it has promised it would not do in the Interim Agreement of 1995.

Macedonia has taken you to court over this. On January 20, 2010, at the International Court of Justice, Greece will be required to answer whether it has opposed Macedonia or not. Yes or No. If it has, it is contrary to the [...]

Read the full comment 1995 Agreement.

While an ICJ ruling wont be binding on Greece (the ICJ can't make a country do anything) - it will be used by NATO and EU members who will act to preclude Greece from vetoing. Removing Greece's right to veto in relation to something the ICJ has said they are not allowed to interfere with would not be a radical step in NATO or the EU.

Sasha you are not Macedonian. You are a Greek pretending to be Macedonian. Probably the same one who posted after you.

If you actually knew Macedonian youth - you'd know that 90% of them are against a name change - as shown in a number of polls.

This paper should show your ISP address. Because I would put 1,000 Euro on the fact that it is in Greece.

Sorry for quadruple posts.

Quote from Gruevski during his meeting with Barroso:

"We hope and dream of membership of a grand and beautiful project like the EU," he said.

>>>But dream remains dream...

Athens can not stand in the way of Macedonian identity. We are at the door of the EU and all we need is mutual respect. There are many of my own people (especially in the diaspora) who would never aspire to the significance of being a member of the EU means. Most of these individuals are right wing hardliners who live in a romantic world full of Al. Veliki and empires, tunics, 16 ray stars/suns, male partners, vehemently anti-Slavic, and most of all in giant houses in the diaspora with even bigger cars. The world has moved on from these [...]

Read the full comment uneducated lot who tend to think they represent our land from thousands of kilometers away. It is so discusting knowing how hard the Macedonian Youth in Macedonia are trying to beat out a living for themselves while you have all these pompous diaspora imbeciles dictating what is good for us. The left wing population of Macedonia are ready for the EU. We can only pray that our right wing idiots will get off their antiquisation crap and start to follow the rest of our people in creating a future for everyone inside the EU. The universities of Macedonia are behind the Macedonian Think Tank Demos which has for some time supported the Macedonian YOUTH. We pay exceptional homage to Vasko Gligorov the leader of the Skopje University students for anti-fascism (Gruevski & co.) and human rights especially the countless students who have been detained by Gruevski's monkeys for voicing their concerns for our country. We don't all believe in your antiquisation politics and as such we will continue to promote Gotse Delchev's Protocol that Macedonia has always been the product of our Bulgarian, Greek, Albanian, Vlach, Turkish, and Roma roots. History is relevant to those who seek it. Those who fabricate it will be condemned for generations to come as the fools who attempted to rewrite and promote hyperbole (e.g. risto Stefov the king in diaspora fabrications). Remember, the world we live in as young Macedonians, is as real as we make it. The lies, contempt, and fabrication serves only a few diaspora dreamers. The rest of us live in the real world of hard work to earn a living and with the relief that one day Macedonia will have decrease its unemployment standing at last weeks poll 43%. The diaspora can dream all they want intheir big, huge houses to fit their big huge ego's but here at home the people are suffering, hungry, and restless. Change is on the horizon.

Long Live the Macedonian Youth.
May the diaspora fascists build more houses, buy more cars and dream of more ancient tunics but please leave us alone your pockets are filled deep with misery creating anguish. You don't live here so YOU shouldN'T have a saY IN OUR FUTURE.
mACEDONIA 4 THE mACEDONIAN yOUTH