No, Peggy the humourless, I was merely (genuinely) quoting from Vatican Radio.... much as there are very many Catholics in Australia, you clearly do not listen to it !

Epaminondas

Fri, Dec 25 2009 15:58 CET

"Peggy - om second thoughts, was it you who attacked His Holiness the Pope during yesterday's Midnight Mass ?

The media broadcasts reported that it was a female clad in a red anorak with hood, and speaking with an Australian accent....."
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Resorting to personal insults now?

Again and again I ask you to keep on the topic and not sway away from it. Do you have such a short attention [...]

Read the full comment span?

Peggy - om second thoughts, was it you who attacked His Holiness the Pope during yesterday's Midnight Mass ?

The media broadcasts reported that it was a female clad in a red anorak with hood, and speaking with an Australian accent.....

Peggy - only two (depending upon context, which helps other readers). The site permits it, and it is reader-friendly.

Suggest you try it yourself some time, cobber....

Epamin, why are you avoiding telling us how many names you post under?
I don't need your help at all. Actally, I don't think very much of your "intelligence" and don't need you to spread it.

All I want is for you to explain this small matter to us here.
I wonder why you keep avoiding it.

Oh well, Peggy, obviously what I said WASN'T helpful. Sorry.

I must admit that I don't read your posts as "discussing" anything - they read more like a series of Infallible Pronouncements.

Have you ever thought of becoming Pope ?

(Actually, on second thoughts, a knowledge of Latin for that particular job is rather a rerequisite....so you mightn't be eligible. Pity...)

Koinos, your arrogance is incredible.
So you may know Greek and Latin. Does this make you a smarter and a better man than the one who doesn't?
What has this got to do with anything I was discussing?

Again, Epaminondas, George II and other alieses you use, please stick to the topic and you are not fooling anyone by commenting under so many names.

"The Mark of A Proper Education Is To Have a Thorough Understanding of Greek and Latin" - UK Prime Minister W.E.Gladstone, 1880.

What more can I say, O Peggy, except that it helps to know one's "andres athenaioi" from one's
"timeo danaos et dona ferentes"....

Especially in the context of Serbia, where Greece and Greek have had so much influence over the years....

Kal(h)emera sas - hope this is helpful

Koinos, a.k.a. Epaminondas and various others what has my lack of Greek got to do with anything?
Please keep to the point as you like to adivse me and do tell me if you do go under various names here.

You try to steer away from what is discussed in hope of evading the issue.

Not knowing Greeks does not disquality me from having opinions or from exposing you as a person with multiple personalities here.

Peggy's problem is that she doesn't understand Greek - Koinos Nous means "common sense", and Epaminondas was a Greek general in classical times who was renowned for his common sense on the battlefield.

Not sure how much farther I can help Peggy out here, except to suggest she chills out with a couple of stubbies of the chilled article...

I can recommend her the book "Teach Yourself Greek", though, although I learned mine via a different method at university.

Ludvig, this Koinos is someone who calls himself Epaminondas and many other names here.
The guys is quite confused about his identiy and posts under many names.
A real sad case so don't take him seriously.

Ludvig - my thanks for your "informed" comments about my grammar and syntax.

However, I am writing standard educated British English, and you appear to be writing in the peculiar North American over-syntaxed dialect that is difficult to understand over here.

Les francais en France say precisely the same thing about French Canadians and their strange dialect and pronounciation of French, if that is any consolation.

By the way, bustard is very tasty if casseroled at 150 degree centigrade for about five hours.

Koinos Nous
>>>Ludwig - "Bustard" isn't just a typo (I'm spelling this carefully for the Moderators' benefit), but a large game bird only now being re-introduced to Europe after Xenophon's army rather ate the lot, as recorded in the "Anabasis".

The bustard is rather larger than the standard North American turkey, which its flesh rather resembles, and is easy to rear (and to catch) as its flying and running abilities are rather restricted by its size.

More to the point, Uncle Sam has declared an interest in [...]

Read the full comment the bustard issue as in the following extract from the Afghan / Iragi borderlands (well, at least that'll teach American servicemen to be more careful with SpellCheck !)
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Now you are advancing beyond silly pettiness. What is the difference between going completely of tangent posts and those gut wrenching spewing of vulgarities (practice mostly mastered by the Albanian visitors here)? Both are meant to be a distraction. Likewise, a speech writer would add a handwritten note on the side of his typed paragraph: "Here the argument is weak, raise your voice".
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Having said that, I am now going to give you the taste of your own medicine.
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As you know, the typo "spell check" thingy is easy to conquer. It is much more difficult to master the other substantive aspects of any language. Just look at the grammatical chaos in your above post.

These are excellent examples of strange word construction highlighting missing antecedent in dependent clause of "run-on" sentences, coupled with missplaced modifier and incompatible tenses (Total linguistic nightmare that defies the text raison d'être).

It is impossible to know for sure who is who, who is doing what to whom. Did "Xenophon's army rather ate the lot"? Or maybe this is a typo - you meant to say "Xenophon's army rather ate A LOT". In either case the modifying phrase has a dangling/squinting modifier, that comes out RATHER funny.... Is this a simple affirmative statement (they may have eaten a lot), or a comparative preference (for some unexplained reason they preferred to eat a lot)?

"The bustard is rather larger than the standard North American turkey, which its flesh rather

Incompatible tenses is a big no-no. In that sense English is unique. Bundedness results from the presence of the defining adverbial.

The bird could be "rather large", but it cannot be "RATHER LARGER" (competing pleonasm - increasingly bigger...).

There is no such a thing as "STANDARD NORTH AMERICAN TURKEY", or standard Indian elephant, standard Albanian donkey...

If you have a kid in school please show him/her the following sentence (use this as so called teaching moment - tell him, this is what you are going to become, if you do not write your homework and skip school): >>The bustard is rather larger than the standard North American turkey, which its flesh rather resembles, and is easy to rear (and to catch) as its flying and running abilities are rather restricted by its size.<< I dare you to figure out whose "flesh" it is, who is doing "flying and running" and who is "rearing" whom. Is the author flying and running or rearing certain "standard turkey", or is it the other way around?

Ludwig - "Bustard" isn't just a typo (I'm spelling this carefully for the Moderators' benefit), but a large game bird only now being re-introduced to Europe after Xenophon's army rather ate the lot, as recorded in the "Anabasis".

The bustard is rather larger than the standard North American turkey, which its flesh rather resembles, and is easy to rear (and to catch) as its flying and running abilities are rather restricted by its size.

More to the point, Uncle Sam has declared an interest in the bustard issue as in the following [...]

Read the full comment extract from the Afghan / Iragi borderlands (well, at least that'll teach American servicemen to be more careful with SpellCheck !)
:

link is:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/royal-falconers-in-search-of-bustards-clash-with-tribesmen-735998.html

Ludwig, simplicity is effective when people are on the same page, otherwise much must be explained to be understood. For example, a maths teacher must explain why and how X=5, and the reason why I write on this site is to explain how and why kosovo is serbian. I really respect what you have to say. Your a man who has the power to think strongly, but in this instance simplicity will not take us far, for this situation has gone far beyond simple, it has become complex and moved us into a real war of words, where the power [...]

Read the full comment of the mind, speech and knowledge can make a difference. But I can simplify something for many. Kosovo is Serbia, Serbia is Kosovo.

Branimir Maksimovic,
The beauty is in simplicity. Also, being humble is a virtue. The smarter the professor, teaching a class is, the easier, more comprehensive explanation he/she would give you.

Fellow humans. There is simply one outcome to this situation. Negotiating table! The arguments presented by so called intellectuals, professors, experts on the legality of seccesion by the temporary government in pristina is a complete farse. They do not realise that there great names and acheivments will loose all credentials and respect by the international community in response to falsely portray international law, resolution 1244, and general principals as such. All you must do and be, is open minded, understanding and work off all facts given to us by all sides to come to the conclusion that this entire process [...]

Read the full comment is entirely pure interest and the further it goes on the closer we come to instability, and possible conflicts spreading not only in kosovo and metohija but macedonia, bosnia and further more to the former ussr, middle east, asia and many other disputed regions, which at the same time are also interest related. Knowledge and the way you think is an individuals power, but it cannot match to ones armed forces unless there are many who share the same vision and understanding. Personally, im uneducated, no school. Born in kosovo, citizen of australia, age 23 and what I learned was how magnificent books were from a young age, which gave me the opportunity to gain my own view of the world, geopolitically, historically, economically and combining all of them together, using 1 plus 1 how and why things happen. Mayby before many of you comment, you also should spend many years, firstly understanding then commenting. 1 example, the USA attacked iraq claiming in the senate and before the highest of people in the american society, iraq is a direct threat to the existence of the usa, it posseses weapons of mass destruction, links to terrorism, and bla bla bla. That was 6 years ago, obviously today we know none of the above were true, yet it was used as a basis for attack. So if people put 1 and 1 together back then and used general knowledge and common sense things like this would never happen, but they dont, people are easy to manipulate, trick, play with and those intelectuals use it upon those they can, usually the vast vast vast majority. So its up to the individual to decide in which section he belongs, with an effort in spending time to understand and usually the hard way they are todays minority, otherwise the become the majority, who listens to a 2min news clip and 40word news article. Unlike many books and years of knowledge, the 40 words and 2min usually make and individual who looks highly upon himself whilst trying to make argument on a particular topic really, excuse my language, Stupid! But is that the fault, probably not at times, because they simply do not know. What I am trying to say is, 'skola ne cini coveka, covek cini sebe' a serbian saying which means, school dosnt form a man, a man forms himself. Kosovo and Metohija, was, is and will be Serbia. :-) Branimir Maksimovic

Koinos Nous, after reading it on the board, I see you that could fish out a couple more of those annoying typos in this last, long post (ivy league, decide etc..). Thanks in advance for all corrections

>>Koinos Nous
Ludwig - WRONG ! You definitely said "bustardise" in the following extract of your on this same post, which to those of us who know Ancient Greek clearly led back to the experience of Xenophon's army in the <<
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O.K. C'mon my chap. Now I see what you meant. You were chasing my "typo"! You wrote one post about one typo... Look there must be more than that one, as I keep banging on the keys. Please feel free to correct my typo any time. Thanks.

Albanoi:
>>Ludviw, you have been brainwashed by serbian propaganda. Who started 4 wars in the Balkans? War in Slovenia, Croatia,Bonsia and Kosovo. The biggest massacre after WW2 was in Bosnia, 200 000 people died, 500 000 left their homes. In Croatia thousnads of people died. In Kosovo 15-20 000 died, 500 000 left their homes. Serbs has allways been ruthless in wars, extremely ruthless. Unless Milosevic came to power, so would these wars never happened.Tito was for everyone. Serbia must be more punished, this is nothing! Hundreds of war criminals hiding in Serbia. Today, they se Arkan, [...]

Read the full comment Milsoveic, Mladic and Karadzic or other serbian extrimists as heros. Very democratic countrey my friend (Y)<<
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Maybe I could tell you my case. I'm half Croat Serb, half Montenegro Serb> We lived in Belgrade until my 8th grage. then we kept moving around - studed, worked, lived on four continents. I'm an American citizen, first and foremost. That is my country, my homeland. Serbija or Montenegro are my old countries, not my countries. My kids (teenagers) speak pigeon Serbian. So much for my brainwashing. Sure where ever you are, you will get in the media or through schooling a slanted view. Therefore, I had been brainwashed in Serbian, as well as in German, French, Spanish and English. Having said all that, I am in a position to see things as close as possible the way they actually are, free of propaganda items. Hence, you are not going to find me supporting Milosevic, Mladic, Arkan, Tudjman, Isetbegovic, Oric, Thachi, Haraindaj... any of those idiots. These are people that belonged to the communist era in Eastern Europe. "Daleko im lepa kuca" (Far be their dwellings"), as they say in Serbia. What we have here is the case of TWO WRONGS CANNOT MAKE IT RIGHT. Do you remember how father Bush handled Iraq in 1991. Saddam Husein attacked and occupied Kuwait. Like your Albanians, he proclaimed that Kuwait is Iraqi land, he also was doing "liberation". What did the father G.Bush do? He went to the UN, got the resolution, formed the coalition and before attacking gave Saddam a day or two to start pulling out or else. Saddam had 4,000 tenks T72, he thought Americans were sissies, they were not going to fight him in the desert. He was wrong. It took 100 hours for our troops w/ the coalition forces to destroy the Iraqi army. Would you belive along the US forces fought the Egyptians, Syrians, Jordanians etc, as well as the rest of the NATO forces. Father Bush was not stupid to destroy Baghdad and to occupy and hold the country. As a result of Kuwait liberation we got the permanent bases in Kuwait, with the full consent of the people. Now compare that case with Clinton attack on Serbia, as well as G.W. Bush occupation of Iraq and Afghanistan. Both occupations were done in a militarily might makes everything right way. Life is made out of small details. Look how our polititions, military officers and soldiers go to these occupied land AT WILL, as they please. They fly into those bases, and there they feel at home. Entertainers follow, our soldiers walk around with sun glasses... Put yourself in a position of a local person. I am not talking about Islamic fanatics, who treat women as their possessions...talking about a regular, smart local guys. They may pretend to be our friend, but they are rooting for those Islamic killers, terrorists. Why? Because, if they are going to be occupied, they rather be occupied by the Taliban for instance. Then we start dropping bombs, whereby their civilians get blown up... They have no International Court to go to to complain. And what do they do? they FIGHT BACK. They set traps for our young soldiers (in a few years it could be my son). Then what happened? Then we back home start debating what to do. Each our soldier in Afghanistan costs us $1 million per year! We are going to have soon 100,000 ouir guys there. That costs 100 billion dollars per year!!!How long cou;ld you go like that? If we are attacked, like we were by the Al Kaida, then we could go like that as long as it takes. But now comes Obama, who although a Democrat (I'm a Republican) has my views of the foreign policy. He studded and studded, used the counsel of the best and the brightest and desided - we are going to add another 30,000 soldiers, not to win the occupation war. On the contrary, Obama is a PEACE PRESIDENT, not a war president. He proclaimed - we are not the occupiers, we do not take other countries' land (compare that with Clinton grabbing Kosovo from Serbia), we are your partners, not patrons. The new troops are coming to help facilitate THE TRANSITION from the US/NATO occupation to democratic Afghan government. Then he set the date - you have 18 months to get your sh*t together, after that we start pooling out!!! He understands in-justice. Being an African Americans he knows what it means when people full of themselves hold down the weak and disadvantageous.
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All the above had everything to do with Kosovo. Klinton was talking about WINING/ VICTORY over Serbia, Iraq. Obama never mentioned "VICTORY", he spoke about SUCCESS. Do you understand the difference? In Kosovo Clinton, then my guy Bush Jr. only spoke about VICTORY, defeating evil. Bush is no thinker. He was a "C" student. We have Justice Anthony Scalia (who happens to be my idol), who said - when the cases come in front of him (U.S. Supreme Court) he always decides having in mind - WHAT IS THE BEST FOR ALL THE SIDES INVOLVED - IN THE LONG RUN). Apply that in Iraq, Afghanistan, Serbia... TO WIN/ SUCCEED IN THE LONG RUN, YOU HAVE TO BE RIGHT FIRST. In the case of Kosovo, yes it was true, Albanians were looked upon as primitive terrorists, who are multiplying manifold and keep spreading without trying to assimilate. On the other hand the Albanians never thought that Serbia was their land. They simpathized w/ Tito, because he had more understanding for their point of view. Even today I was told that in Belgrad live something like 40,000 Albanians. The highest ladder step they could climb in the Serbian society is - a baker. In Montenegro it was always a little bit better. That is why I have Montenegro Albanian friends here in NYC, but not Kosovo Albanians friends. O.K. What should we do now. I gave you my long speech about my background (I hold the highest Ivy leag degree, BTW) for the reason to summerize at the end that what my U.S. has been doing in Kosovo is the same wrong approach by the two previous presidents (Clinton & G.W. Bush), while the new guy (Obama) has earned the admiration of the entire World (as opposed to one sided passing sympathy of the uneducated Albanians and alike, that the other two president enjoy). In other words, Obama's studious, sophisticated approach to everything is the approach that I am also advocating here.

Ludwig - WRONG ! You definitely said "bustardise" in the following extract of your on this same post, which to those of us who know Ancient Greek clearly led back to the experience of Xenophon's army in the "Anabasis" and the fact that the humble bustard / "otis" was their only source of protein during their long return home through the desert.

Source of this is (you wrote it) :

<< Wrong. KLA was on the Terrorist Organizations List of the U.S.S.D. all the way up to 1998. Go ahead, check it. [...]

Read the full comment Then came Monica Lewinsky w/ 32 B.J.s in the Oval Office and the rest you know…. As for KLA defending Albanian population - do you know that they are the only Liberation Army in the World, that has never liberated even one square foot of the land that it has laid the claim on?
Albanians do not even have a name for Albania #2. They call it “Kosova”. They had to bustardize our sacred name Kosovo (the land of black birds) >>

Blackbirds actually make quite a nice casserole too, but there the credentials are more Northern European, as in the old nursery rhyme "Sing a Song of Sixpence"....

Ludviw, you have been brainwashed by serbian propaganda. Who started 4 wars in the Balkans? War in Slovenia, Croatia,Bonsia and Kosovo. The biggest massacre after WW2 was in Bosnia, 200 000 people died, 500 000 left their homes. In Croatia thousnads of people died. In Kosovo 15-20 000 died, 500 000 left their homes. Serbs has allways been ruthless in wars, extremely ruthless. Unless Milosevic came to power, so would these wars never happened.Tito was for everyone. Serbia must be more punished, this is nothing! Hundreds of war criminals hiding in Serbia. Today, they se Arkan, Milsoveic, Mladic and Karadzic [...]

Read the full comment or other serbian extrimists as heros. Very democratic countrey my friend (Y)

Or look at this fact: All the names of the Kosovo towns, cities, mountains, rivers, streams, monestaries, old monuments, graves have Serbian name ....Prizren, Pec, Pristina, Urosevac, Gnjilane, Djakovica, Kosovo, Kosovo Polje, Strbac, Bjelasica, Djokovici, Petrovo selo, Ibar, Sitnica, Zapadna Morava, Klina, Gracanica, Decani... on and on, every single one. in 1999 and 2004 while protected by NATO Albanians burned 100 churches. What does that tell you about them? Why were they doing that? To form a multietnic, democratic society? Multiethnic-democratic my foot.

>>Koinos Nous Sun, Dec 06 2009 21:23 CET
Inappropriate comment?

I must congratulate Ludwig Boltzmann on his classical scholarship : Xenophon's "Anabasis" of full of mentions of 'bustards' (the only meat his troops could find), which in Ancient Greek is (I think) "Otis"<<
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No sir/madam. Not me. I didn't mrention "bastards", I said the following: [[Albanians do not even have a name for Albania #2. They call it “Kosova”. They had to bastardize our sacred name Kosovo (the land of black birds)]]. Before, you were taking things out of [...]

Read the full comment context, now you are a plain fabricator.

Branimir Maksimovic Thu, Dec 03 2009 12:36 CET
>>the UN Has 192 members, 63 have accepted independance the remaining majority have not. By this kosovo will never be an internationally recognised nation. The albanians tried doing so during and after ottoman rule and they try again, but it is not a one sided path, there is an opposition, a very large 1, supported by russia and china. By egypt, south africa, india, brazil, argentina to mention a few. <<
Just counting “for” and “against” states would give completely distorted picture. Take a look who are those [...]

Read the full comment 63 states. First come 20 out of 25 NATO states. What would you expect them to do? To say now – we were wrong in bombing Serbia. Actually in the case of Spain (they had two planes out of 1000 NATO planes, that were bombing Serbia) and Rumania that miracle actually happened. Now, they are not recognizing this NATO creation. Then you have banana republics whose hands were twisted of the likes of Montenegro, Macedonia, Jordan and all kind of island states, whose main industry are the off-shore accounts. You could say that if you do not count NATO countries, only Croatia, Albania and S. Arabia FREELY supported steeling Kosovo Province (the cradle of Serbian culture) from Serbia. Imagine Montenegro supporting Kosovo independence! That is a travesty. If that did not happened, 100% Djukanovic would be indicted and prosecuted by the Italian Court. Both Djukanovic & Co. and Macedonian Macedonians openly said that they had no choice but to recognize this illegal entity! They said – how could we become member of NATO and go against their policies?!! Imagine. Forget that, take for example Serbia. The “International Community” is even today talking (the Germans…) that Serbia has to recognize the plunder of the 15% of its territory, as a precondition to join EU!! What does that mean? International Law? Human rights/ freedom loving “International Community”? In the Anglo-Saxon Law there is another axiom that the contract signed under duress is not valid. Add to that another basic doctrine in the US Law – the Doctrine of Clean Hands, that does not allow people to testify in behalf the party while they may benefit by the outcome (wife cannot testify in behalf of the husband, because everybody knows in advance what she is going to say). If you summarize it all, you could actually count on your fingers all the state that in reality, freely have recognized “Kosova”. On the other hand, little Serbia has no power whatsoever to force any country in the world to vote in favor of its sovereignty. Imagine – almost all Muslim and Arab states are supporting Serbia instead of their Muslim Albanian bros. China, India, Russia, Brazil, Indonesia, Egypt, Palestinians, Iraq, Iran, Argentina, Venezuela, most of Africa, even Israel (!!)… practically all the states in the world that were able to withstand the pressure and come with their own opinion. There is no chance in the World that ICJ could come on the side of unilateral force.

Kosovari102:
>>I wanted to make it clear that this International Court of Justice was created to punish states for violating basic human rights against their own people; a good example is the Nazi Germany and the Nurnberg Trials. As a result, how can you or anyone possibly think for a second that the ICJ will vote in favor of Serbia when they clearly committed many atrocities against its so called “own people”. Of course I’m talking about the massacres they committed in Bosnia and Kosovo. Any wise person will tell you that you must study the past in [...]

Read the full comment order to foresee the future and looking at Serbia’s violent past clearly illustrates that Kosovo has to be an independent state. <<
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First, I’d like to give you credit, that you are a thinking Albanian, which hard to come by here, as you could see.
As for ICJ “was created to punish states for violating basic human rights against their own people”, that is again plain wrong. You are referring to ICTY – Tribunal, which has a questionable reputation (Ad hock court, rules were made “on the way”, retroactive use of new laws, dead people testifying, witness without the name, or face…). ICJ is a the top UN court, the guardian of the UN Charter, completely different league from ICTY little cousin. The difference is like between the Earth and the Moon. One prosecutes individual crimes in the former YU, committed after 1993 (ICTY), while the other - ICJ is considered the World court (with undisputable integrity) actually predates the UN (under different name). The ICJ considers only civil, binding arbitration between the UN states. In the case of “Kosove” they accepted the case to render non-binding Opinion, for which the participant did not have to be both member states.

Kosovari102,
>>Moreover, Maksimovic, you said “the world has already learned that from the past”. I agree, the World has learned its lessons from just sitting on the side line and doing nothing while thousands upon thousands of people get displaced, massacred, and exterminated. The only possible outcome to this situation is that Kosovo’s independence can NEVER go back and that’s the reality! <<
• You do not have independence, by any means. The provisional interim government in Pristina decides practically only about snow removal, local taxes…. things like that. One of the lethal weapons that so called [...]

Read the full comment International Community (NATO) keeps you in line is ICTY. Any little disobedience could land your leaders a day in criminal court/ tribunal.
• Have you heard of expression “taken out of context”? Example: I call you tonight and say >All the Jews should be led to crematorium…<< At that point you stop me and started yelling profanities!!! “Hey you fascist, degenerate…” etc. But if you let me finish the sentence, I was going to say the following: >>All the Jews should be led to crematorium – Hitler once said<< Do you see the power of taking something out of context. That is what you, as well as the key western countries (they called themselves in the process “International Community”) did with bombing of Serbia. Namely, they proclaimed that the world history had started from March 1999 on! And what about Ultimatum given to Serbs at Rambouillet and subsequent NATO announcement that the bombing was imminent! Then and only then came said exodus of KLA and Albanians to Albania and Macedonia. Whether they were all pushed or left at their own will is only relevant if you take the things out of context, thinking that the Serbs just like that got mad and cracked down on their minority, Albanians. The U.S. law recognizes the axiom “totality of circumstances”. That is the doctrine that prevents parties to do what you did, to select only the facts, that they like to present, creating totally distorted picture. Picture 19 NATO countries (700 million population) announced that they are about to make a parking lot of Serbia (8 million people). On the ground KLA was fighting preparing the landing strips for incoming NATO invasion. Now, please tell me – how the Serbs were supposed to defend themselves, their freedom?

I must congratulate Ludwig Boltzmann on his classical scholarship : Xenophon's "Anabasis" of full of mentions of 'bustards' (the only meat his troops could find), which in Ancient Greek is (I think) "Otis" (glad to be corrected on this - it's 50 years since I read Anabasis in Greek in school.)

Visi:

>>KLA defended its own population and it stopped to exist after Serbia was forcibly removed from Kosovo by NATO (after many failed diplomatic efforts)!
The adjective "terrorist" was added by Serbian propaganda to make it easier for the Serbs to justify their ever increasing attrocities toward the albanian population of kosovo.<<
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Wrong. KLA was on the Terrorist Organizations List of the U.S.S.D. all the way up to 1998. Go ahead, check it. Then came Monica Lewinsky w/ 32 B.J.s in the Oval Office and the rest [...]

Read the full comment you know…. As for KLA defending Albanian population - do you know that they are the only Liberation Army in the World, that has never liberated even one square foot of the land that it has laid the claim on?
Albanians do not even have a name for Albania #2. They call it “Kosova”. They had to bustardize our sacred name Kosovo (the land of black birds)

Hasi,
Making arbitrary parables falls in realm of sophism and circular reasoning from classical Greek philosophy. For the comparison to be valid, enough identical circumstances have to be identical. Could your marriage analogy be applied on Tetovo Region vs. Macedonia ? Ulcinj-Tuzi vs. Montenegro, Tirol vs. Austria, Kurdistan vs. Iraq, Corsica vs. France, Northern Ireland vs. GB, Kashmir vs. India, Basque vs. Spain, Québec vs. Canada? Take for example the last case. The same ICJ has rendered an opinion that Québec has no right to succeed from Canada. You may think that Québec is like an unhappy wife, [...]

Read the full comment why should husband be able to keep her under marriage chains? The International law, of course does not accept stupid analogies. Explain to all of us why Cosovo Albanians should be some elite minority to be entitled to more rights than Québec people? I do not know whether you are aware of the fact that Milosevic is long gone, while Democratic Serbia has offered its Albanian minority more rights than Québec was given by Canada.

Koinos Nous,
You are in The World Public Discourse Court, the court of public judgment, not in ICJ. The Rule Book is different here.

Giovani,
I did not know that Albanian was similar to English. I found a lot of English words in your post.

Agron, you are sentenced never to make more than $19,000/year. I would start w/ GED, ESL... cuz u now wada I meen?

The person who use words and do not understand them shows their ignorance. I am an American and proud of it. There has been a lot of brain washing from the former Yugoslav communist government to its own people.

They first took the land away from its own people and destroyed history.

The Albanians are exercising a right they do not have. They are living in a foreign land that does not belong to them. Look at history folks. Tito allowed the Albanians to settle in Kosovo. This was Tito’s way to [...]

Read the full comment keep the Serbs under oppression.

If you look at history unless the Serbian and Albanian government changed it. The territory was Christian. The Ottoman Empire planted the seed which has destroyed Albania and now threatens Serbia.

I consider all the facts read the true history of Skanderbeg. If you know the true history you will see his wife and child settled in today’s Montenegro. Now are you Albanians going to declare Montenegro as your state as well?

Let’s look at the authors who write Serbs are terrorists. I am born and raised here in U.S.A. and I am a law enforcement official. When the war was occurring in the Balkans. I did not see any Serbs destroying any thing here in the good ole USA. The Albanians were coming over here and robbing banks to finance the war. The Department of Justice named them Y.A.C.K.S I could go on but what is the point.

Let’s look at my country we have a lot of illegal immigrants from Mexico. You think the United States government will give California, Arizona, New Mexico and Texas to Mexico. NOT why should the Serbs?

When are we going to stop and let this go Kosovo never plane to split from Serbia if kosovars head given the rights like everyone-else they head no rights to go to school or vote in there own interests WHERE DO YOU SEE A CITY 98% OF PEOPLE kOSOVAR/ALBANIAN THEY HEAD TO HAVE A SERBIAN MAYER WTF IS THIS MAN

Peggy i m so greatfull that i m albanian ..
And i respect people with open mind , like Bulgarian ..
You peggy are just serbian garabage who hate your self ....But we all know that who is right who is wrong .
Peggy shame an you ,and stay in topic.

I really think (as I have said on the Macedonia site) that, if an ICJ case is in progress, nobody should comment as to the likelihood of the outcome of the case until the Court has pronounced its verdict.

To do so could be to risk being held in "Contempt of Court" ('outrage a magistrat' in French).

And none of us, I am sure, wants to get ourselves or the Sofia Echo into legal trouble of this nature. It is only a very small risk, but it is there.

[...]

Read the full comment /> So a bit of restraint in some comments might be a very good idea.

Meanwhile, much as I do not necessarily espouse the Serbian side of the argument, I must compliment Branimir on arguing his side of the case really well.

I see you copy/paste really well, but what I also noticed is that, like the supporters are trying to somehow interperet and change the meaning of international law and right for seccesion. You also have the ability to do so, except this time what I have said. I can assure you of 1 thing, what I meant I said, how I said it, I wrote it, thats how I meant it. At the same time, I could go back over what was said and make many different asumptions that suit my ideoligy. But that would be wrong, what you have [...]

Read the full comment done, is not smart. I am a serb, as my name shows, and by no means will I debate on the side of the temporary government in pristina, but I wil accept mistakes and work off them to move forward. Mayby, thats what you should do, and think using your own mind, write using your own words and ill be more then happy to debate. Because really my mind is full of this, and it takes me mins to respond. But how do I respond to my own words, when I have already explained my self. What ever it takes for you to write to make your day more pleasing, please go ahead, but the matter fact is, kosovo is eventually coming back to a negotiating table and it wont be people like you doing the negotiating, take my wore on that. Kosovo is Serbia

Visi, I see that you are plucking your info out of your a**e.

So you are trying to tell me that most of the Serbs who have lived in Kosovo prior to 1999 have died and so their numbers have gone down by hundreds of thousands. Who then is still in refugee shelters in Serbia?
You Albanians talk of such massive numbers of the dead and you have managed to replace them quickly.
When was the last cencus done in Kosovo to know how many were born since then and how many [...]

Read the full comment have stayed?

No, it is the Albanians who have ethnically cleansed the Serbs. That much is obvious but you just cannot tell the truth. Typical.

Argon I can see that you are suffering a great deal because you simply cannot accept that all your scheming and lies have not paid off and will not pay off.

I would suggest you stop writing here because you are really making a fool of yourself. Take a look at the way you write. I'm sure many feel sorry for you as I do now as well. I used to think that you are just a bastard but I can see now that you are mentally challenged.

@hasi
a woman has the right to leave yes but a different story if she wants to take my house - my car and my dog with her..no one in serbia has ever blocked albanians from leaving ...go .. just not with our stuff :)) we'll get it back soon enough !!

times have changed.in a democraci you can do and say what you want. if a woman dont want to be with a men she simply tells him that she is going cos she is very unhappy ,the man gets very upset but lets her go.some man who act aggresivly go to jail. so, whats wrong with KOSOVO having had enough of serbia wanting to go her own way.i think those who try and stop that are a bunch of LOOSER who should be put away !

Branimir - I should let you know out of courtesy that I copied across to the "Macedonia" part of this site the following extract of yours (which I entirely support):

<<< As regards the results of an ICJ verdict, I am doing an unusual thing and cross-copying a very wise comment made by Branimir Maksimovic (I think a Serb) on the "Kosovo" section of the Sofia Echo site, as follows (this is Branimir's comment, not mine):

<<The reality here is, 129 nations are unwilling to recognise such independance, which is why they [...]

Read the full comment granted it to go before the ICJ where a non binding decision will have great impact, wether someone likes the idea or not. >>

>>>

I then added as follows:

<<< Reverting to my comment, Branimir says "the ICJ non-binding decision will have a GREAT IMPACT, WHETHER SOMEONE LIKES THE IDEA OR NOT" (my capitals). When the ICJ decides on Macedonia/Greece, the same will be true.

In the case of Macedonia, however, Branimir's figures are reversed : 126 HAVE ALREADY recognised the "constitutional name" of Republic of Macedonia, as opposed to 129 who have NOT recognised Kosovo. So his point is even stronger about Macedonia than it is about Kosovo.

I will let Branimir know that I have copied and used his text, out of courtesy. >>>

(END)

uuauauau Internet heros are serbs i see how they write .Anyway who ellse PEggy is here peggy peggy soon as you open your mouth you lia peggy ..But anyway i will stay in topic serbs they were and allways will stay albanians enemy cuz serbs are worst than animals they dont know god religion ore faith they prove that in many wars but the problems is ...and this problem knows Peggy to in 30 years they going to be 50 %less serbs ...is very old nation ...and why for crist name PEggy is so scary cuz she knows that albanians [...]

Read the full comment are the younges nation and is growin and growin every day .
Grow up peggy serbs will have just /beogradski pashalluk/ like they have when they move from kaukazus siberia..to Europ.

@Branimir
I am sure KLA was not healthy for Serbia the same way as serbia was not healthy for kosovars.

KLA defended its own population and it stopped to exist after Serbia was forcibly removed from Kosovo by NATO (after many failed diplomatic efforts)!
The adjective "terrorist" was added by Serbian propaganda to make it easier for the Serbs to justify their ever increasing attrocities toward the albanian population of kosovo.
It sounded so good for Serbs, "hey, they are terrorists, thus we have the right to kill them (the [...]

Read the full comment albanians) don't we"!

Anyway... that's already history and Kosovo is now an Independent Republic with its own constitution, parliament and freely elected institutions. So you can go on and dream about it ;)

@Peggy,
Since you have some difficulties in understanding very simple concepts, I'll try to give you a simple answer to your question.
There is one main reasons why in kosovo there are more Albanians now than before 1999. After 10 years, the population of Kosovo, as of any other country in the world grows demographically. I hope you can grasp this!

And your naive question has nothing to do with the fact that Serbia committed genocide, mass murder and other atrocities toward the Albanian population of Kosovo, as it did with Bosnians. [...]

Read the full comment By the way, even in bosnia now, the population is greater than it was in 1999.
And be sure that in 2019-2020, the figures will be even higher!

Kosovari102, I don't with to debate you either. I just want you to answer my question. That's all.

Is that too difficult for you?

First and formost, I believe we can agree to disagree, by saying that we probably have our own views on every matter we discuss. So I will leave it there. But, I have to say, the KLA was not a healthy organisation for anyone. It commited crimes of all altitudes, against men women and children, so seeing that you do carry plenty of understanding, im sure you understand its not in the interest of any albanian to associate themselves with them, because the time will come when people must answer for the crimes. It was a terrorist organisation, only partly [...]

Read the full comment taken off the list for a certain cause to gain momentum on the ground, and finally dismembered and banned from existence. Regarding the UN, it was formed after the greatest war man knows of, and I wont go into who was on whos side. But, as an organisation with many members, worldwide, you will never have agreement on a particular subject by all members, so it was made to function as such. Neither you or I can change that. The reality here is, 129 nations are unwilling to recognise such independance, which is why they granted it to go before the ICJ where a non binding decision will have great impact, wether someone likes the idea or not. Could you imagine if the situation were opposite, 22 EU members not in support of independance, but 129 nations world wide in support, it would carry some weight right? That is the reality, and an agreement must be made, im sure you will disagree but that is the situation. Kosovo is still under Resolution 1244, and with time we will be witnesses to dramatic changes of events. Kosovo is Serbian

Dear Peggy, truth be told, I don’t have the nerves to argue with the likes of you. I’ve been around these forums for a few years now and I know exactly what I’m talking about when I say you are narrow minded etc… I’ve never seen you agree to disagree with anyone who you didn’t see eye-to-eye. If you did please post an example I would love to see it.

Branimir Maksimovic;
Right off the bet, you make it seem like KLA was responsible for the destruction of Yugoslavia. That credit my friend goes [...]

Read the full comment to Serbia alone. Serbia did not want to share power with any of the provinces; they wanted to be the sole ruler of Yugoslavia. Furthermore, KLA was created in early mid 1990s as a result of Serbian aggression towards the ethnic Albanians. It was created by people who had lost everything their homes, families, children and had nowhere to go. The second thing you touched on is that Koha Ditore (news paper) was bias, nothing new there the media is always bias. Are you by any chance suggesting that the media in Serbia are not bias towards Kosovo and ethnic Albanians? As far as the UN goes and my doubts in its systems, I believe I made it clear it was my opinion. I believe anyone who has studied the United Nations knows it has a long way to go.

Moreover, Maksimovic, you said “the world has already learned that from the past”. I agree, the World has learned its lessons from just sitting on the side line and doing nothing while thousands upon thousands of people get displaced, massacred, and exterminated. The only possible outcome to this situation is that Kosovo’s independence can NEVER go back and that’s the reality!

Take care everyone.

jebac pusi kurec albancima jebemti majku cigansku srpku

F Albania is the most criminal country in the world. That ugly nation does not desirve to live close to Serbia..
Kosovo is Serbian teritory!!

Those poor albanians in Kosovo are being mislead a lot like Georgia 2008. "'F' Russia they said ..just do it we got ur back" and as shocked as the Georgians were so will the Albanians be ....eventually..not with military but rather will dramatic loss of support and funding. Then u'll wish for the offer on the table now Albanians make peace ur support is see through paper thin..

All Serbiens are butcher,killer. Because when they born the Parents they teach them to hate,to kill people.Kosova is state now clock does not go back it goes forwared

You continuosly mention, human rights, own people, constitution. What is interesting is, Yugoslavia's constitution was disobeyed, basic human rights taken away, and an act of aggresion towards the state and its citizens by a paramilitary group by the name of the kla which committed many horific crimes and I was at the time a terrorist organisation. Human organ trafficking, 117 religious sites destroyed just to mention a few things. I really would not want to go any further, because I have much to say, and clearly as opposite sides and freedom of speech we could go on forever. I respect [...]

Read the full comment your point of veiw, but I completly disagree with the way you think, and the outcome of the situation. Koha ditore, continuosly uses the unimportant fact that the majority of nations still support serbia. Dismiss the UN, yet, you on 1 hand support it, but see doubts in its system. On the grounds of kosovo and metohija, the ethnic albanians wish no cooperation with unmik, dismiss and object to work and allow eulex to investigate into crimes, such as organ trafficking. But you praise it so much. You mention history,but interperet it in your own way, because as I know the outcome was always kosovo part of serbia. In bosnia there were 100000 deaths, serbs accounted for 35%, croats and bosniaks the remaining 65. In kosovo there are 250000 displaced serbs, who contributed just under 20% of the people on the land, yet of all people missing to date they contribute 60%. I just wished in short to add onto your proganda type comments. As they say, it takes two to tango. No doubt members of the serbian people commited crimes which we all know about because of the abuse of the media, but so did the albanians, whos crimes are not publicised because of the interest and cause the many countries of the west are on at the present time. I simply, truelly believe there is 1 outcome, which is an agreement. Otherwise, there will be global consequences which is not in the interest of many because the are over 6.5 bil people 192 recognised nations, and to think there should be catastrofic consequences because of a small land and a few people, I dont think so, the world has already learned that from the past. Goodluck to everyone, I wish you all peaceful lives. Kosovo is Serbia

adam
Thu, Dec 03 2009 19:19 CET

"serbia is biggest terorist in world serbs they fightin in slovenia, crotia bosnia,and kosovo killing 100 eff 1000 off people serbia is terorist cuntry they got links withe osma bin laden
serbia is shit"

Wow, is your vocabulary this limited that you have to use inappropriate words to express yourself?
For your information, it is Bosnia who has links with Osama and Al-Qaeda. That's why Bin Laden has an honorary citizenship of Bosnia and had his training camps there. [...]

Read the full comment
KLA was also a terrorist organisation before Americans found them useful and took them off that list. So if you are going to link anyone with terrorism, look at your own bac yard.


Kosovari102

Thu, Dec 03 2009 18:55 CET

"Peggy, I do not have much to say to you. Again, I think you are a narrow minded person and frankly I just don’t want to waste time arguing with the likes of you (ignorant, selfish, thinks she’s right and everybody else is wrong)."

For someone who doesn't have much to say to me you sure said plenty and have analyzed me quickly.

I only asked you a simple question which you obviously have no guts to answer so you go on the attack.

So, why is there more albanians in Kosovo now and less Serbs than before 1999 if the Serbs are the ones who have ethnically cleansed you?

Simple question, which you cannot answser for fear of proving yourself wrong.

BTW, I don't think that everyone else is wrong, only you.

Is not ilegal to declare independence.Is ilegal to kill children and women Serbia is the one who broke international low not Kosovo

This comment has been removed by the moderator because it contained foul, abusive or discriminating language

kla is the best

kosovo will be free end off story kosovo is independent end off

serbia killde 200,000 th bosnians in bosnia serbia terorist cuntry in world rember this

This comment has been removed by the moderator because it contained foul, abusive or discriminating language

Peggy, I do not have much to say to you. Again, I think you are a narrow minded person and frankly I just don’t want to waste time arguing with the likes of you (ignorant, selfish, thinks she’s right and everybody else is wrong).
Branimir Maksimovic,
You said you understood what I said earlier but I don’t think you do. Right off the bet, you made this statement “As any nation and its armed forces who are authorised to protect and serve the people”. In other words, destroy the very people they are authorized to protect [...]

Read the full comment if they are questioning or resisting their own state. Well my friend that is a very fascist mentality, to believe that the state/nation outweighs its own people. I don’t know about you but that just seems wrong to me. This is exactly what I was talking about in my post, the belief that the state comes before human lives is problematic and in order to change this we have to reshape this whole mentality that says State is more important than the very people its constitutions sets out to protect.
The United Nations is a step forward in my opinion because it was created on the idea that Human lives are important and that there needs to be an international body that protects individuals from their own state. In other words, when a state takes away basic human rights from the very people it has sworn to protect, there needs to be a body that can intervene in the state’s so called “domestic affairs” and provide those basic human rights to individuals whose rights were taken away.
I am not saying the UN is perfect, in fact it is far from it but its very existence is a direct challenge to state sovereign. The first flaw with UN is the fact that it has five permanent members in the Security Council. These members are supposed to act in a way that it balances the power. In addition, they can veto anything they want so this is clearly a problem because not everyone has an equal say, sure everybody has a vote in the General Assembly but when it comes down to important issues, these five permanent members can do whatever they like. The second flaw with UN is that anyone can be a part of it and have a vote in the General Assembly, to prove this point all I have to say is the mere fact that Somalia who has not had a government in over a decade but still has a sit and a vote in the General Assembly goes to shows you how out of order the UN really is.
Anyways, I got off track here a bit but I wanted to make it clear that this International Court of Justice was created to punish states for violating basic human rights against their own people; a good example is the Nazi Germany and the Nurnberg Trials. As a result, how can you or anyone possibly think for a second that the ICJ will vote in favor of Serbia when they clearly committed many atrocities against its so called “own people”. Of course I’m talking about the massacres they committed in Bosnia and Kosovo. Any wise person will tell you that you must study the past in order to foresee the future and looking at Serbia’s violent past clearly illustrates that Kosovo has to be an independent state.

I understand everything that you have stated, but you do not understand many things. We wont use history facts, because we will most certainly disagree, but I will comment on such treaties and what a nation can and cannot do. Up untill the time of 1998 the kla was a terrorist organisation under the FBI. The albanian population was a minority with many rights within the borders of then yugoslavia. The kla began a guerilla war against a recognised state of the UN, causing deaths, kidnapping, cleansing of the citizens of the nation and directly violated international law, and the [...]

Read the full comment Constitution. As any nation and its armed forces who are authorised to protect and serve the people, so did the Yugoslav army, the police and special units, by doing so they immediatly reacted to a threat of the nation. As the Russians went into Georgia or americans into iraq, it was never going to be 'fair' but in saying so, this conflict was on its territory and it had all rights to act in the manner it did. Indeed, different people will interpret it in many ways, but thats another matter, another topic. Media, interest, propaganda, west vs east what ever you wish. The conclusion was a bombing campaign which will always go down as a coward act, but following it was Resolution 1244 agreed upon by all sides, which stated kosovo is legally part of serbia but will be administered by an international peace force. Prior to the conflict Kosovo had 1.8mil people, 350000 serbs with a majority albanians, why the demographic picture is as such thats also for another topic. During the war, 700000 albanians left the borders, returning during the bombing raids and exit of serb paramilitary. By the end of this there were, 1.9mil people, 120000 serbs, and a rise in albanians, which was the illegal entrance by relatives from macedonia and albania. I only state these things so you could also understand. But im sure the current debate at the icj will include what you will never understand. One this is certain, the UN Has 192 members, 63 have accepted independance the remaining majority have not. By this kosovo will never be an internationally recognised nation. The albanians tried doing so during and after ottoman rule and they try again, but it is not a one sided path, there is an opposition, a very large 1, supported by russia and china. By egypt, south africa, india, brazil, argentina to mention a few. The outcome has a global effect, and it will not finish how you may have been told. Greater interests between great nations, the future of states, seccesion, law, minorities and principal are at stake. When you understand this, only then could you move on. It wasnt and it wont be a push over. Unfortunatly its a games that involves real people, theres lives, emotions, feelings, and its played for a long time untill there is an agreement, not a winner! Kosovo will stay part of Serbia!

Kosovari102, then please explain to me how is it that there are more Albanians in Kosovo now than before 1999 and less Serbs if the Albanians were the ones who got cleansed from there.

BTW, I am not stupid. If you can't see that then you must be.

A province cannot become a country..res-1244 thankyou...

Peaple can understand easier:
Kosovo is Serbia like California is America..
Kosovo definitely belongs to Serbia.

This comment has been removed by the moderator because it contained foul, abusive or discriminating language

Branimir Maksimovic wrote: "It is in the interest of the UN and all its institutions for further progress of mankind, nation states and world peace"

In other words, a nation state can do whatever it wants and the International community can not intervene. hmm does that mean the International community can not intervene even if a state violates basic human rights of its own people?

My friend this way of thinking is very problematic and has been around for many years. It goes back to the Treaty of Westphalia in 1648 where [...]

Read the full comment the first states emerged, where they had this type of mentality which was this is my state and I can do whatever I want and nobody has the right to interfere in my business. As a result of this mentality, we have seen horribly things and horrible conflicts in the world. Finally the World is waking up and realizing that this way of thinking has to change. You can NOT simply oppress a population on the grounds of this Westphalia Treaty and tell the world there is nothing to see here just move along. This argument alone shuts down Serbia’s main argument that the Kosovo issue was a domestic issue.

Its time people wake up and accept the reality that Kosovo is an independent and sovereign state.

Peggy wrote "Tim, what ethnic cleansing?
You mean the one where the Serbs are cleansed out of Kosovo? "

My god you are stupid! i mean just look at the first thing you said (above). There is a saying what goes around comes around and if you actually are a smart person as you clam to be in so many of your post, you'll know that serbia kicked thousands of Kosovars (ethnic Albanians) out of their own homes in the mid to late 1990s. So just the fact that you do not realize that, [...]

Read the full comment goes to show that you are narrow minded who believes serbs are saints which is far from reality.

It is in the interest of the UN and all its institutions for further progress of man kind, nation states and world peace that the final conclusion clearly says, kosovos self proclaimed independence was against international law. Otherwise the consequences will be severe, not only on the and around the balkan peninsular where you have Republika Srpska, and other Albanian majority provinces trying to gain support for independance but also in all other regions of the world. The court will show that since the introduction of peace keepers there has been a rise in population only on the side of [...]

Read the full comment the ethnic albanians, but a major decrease of the serbian, roma, bosnjak, montenegrin communities. It will prove, that the stability of the balkans was interupted, ethnic composition heavilly changed, geopolitical influence destabilizing the region, historical monuments being destroyed, religious freedom stolen, rise in criminal activities, rise in unemployment, inability to fairly bring to justice criminals which shows by using eulex judges, as well as the overall picture international funds are constantly being used for the support of a cause the minority of the world sees as reality, and many more factors. Justice should and will prevail! Kosovo is Serbia

Tim, what ethnic cleansing?
You mean the one where the Serbs are cleansed out of Kosovo?

How can you say that Albanians were clensed when there is more of them now in Kosovo than before 1999?
Please do explain that one to me.
Now we have hundreds of thousands of Serbs still not being able to return to Kosovo and yet you claim all these ridiculous things.

We have heard all the propaganda before. Try to prove any of it. Sure things have happened to both [...]

Read the full comment sides as a result of war but you really do stretch the truth.

Serbian Foreign Minister Vuk Jeremic noted this was the "first time in history" that Serbia has sought to resolve an issue of a province declaring autonomy peacefully in a court of law.
Especially after ethnic cleansing half a million of Albanians, mass grave murders of over 12000 people, raping, stealing, burning and killing anything Albanian in the province.
The world knows your peaceful ways Serbia.

Thanks the whole democratic people
and democratic states they made possible to help kosova in the worst days.