GMS - don't be puerile. No, Greece doesn't "win" - this is just a normal part of the EU process (i.e. slow).

As I said to you earlier, better to get a bit more educated first before posting any further puerile comments.

Tot ziens et je vous souhaite une bonne fin de journee (as we say in Brussels in our impeccable French !)

This is amazing that Skopje even didn't get a date for the accession talks, after being blocked by Greece once again. No NATO & no EU for Fyrom. Greece wins!

GMS - about as much as you can distinguish between the "Judets" of Moldova in Romania and the "Republika Moldova" in an autonomous republic (one of your better 'own goals' !)

I really would suggest that you travel a bit on a "fact-finding" tour of the entire region before posting any more opinions derived from a selective minority of websites.

If your journeys only involve going to and from Pella and Florina within Greece, you had better expand your horizons slightly ! (I can recommend the excellent archaeological site at Veles, Republika Makedonija, for starters.)

Meanwhile - bon voyage, srecni put, and laimingos keliones (as we say in Lithuania.)

Still not signing off? "Tu n'as aucune parole, mon vieux". How can we trust you?

GMS - dealing with Unfinished Threads, as "due diligence" says on should do....

Hopefully you will do the same in due course.

I thought you were signing off?

GMS - I can do no better than attach a link to this very site a few months back, where under my 'alter ego' of Boris Johnson I had a long and amicable dialogue with the Moderator/Reporter Alex Bivol about this very subject, citing my own experience in Chisinau. Link is:

http://sofiaecho.com/2009/07/24/760366_moldovas-choice

This dialogue includes the point that the Romanian language as used in Republic of Moldova is officially termed "moldovanesc", owing to political sensitivities.

Local people tend always to use the term "Republica Moldova" in order to distinguish themselves from the Romanian judets/province of Moldova (not "Moldava"), much as this can be a bit cumbersome in conversation.

As to how you get to Republic of Moldova, from London this involves a flight either to Vienna or Budapest, followed by an Air Moldova flight in a small aircraft to Chisinau. There are no direct flights from Chisinau to any other Western capital.

I simply do not think you have ever been there, not least as it is extremely hard to get to".

>>>I was thinking about the same thing for you.

GMS - I am beginning to think you really are in Cloud Cuckoo Land.

If you really WERE in Chisinau for this occasion, which I very much doubt, tell me who was the lead speaker at the "Forumul" in question, and also who gained the Award for the best EU contribution.

I also happen to have retained a full list of delegates for that occasion (as I was one of the speakers I was given one), so please tell me which name you were using and I shall look it up.

As may be clear, I do feel that you are becoming somewhat challenged in the veracity department. Perhaps you are getting old, as we all do.....time dims all our recollections.

But it is still hard to forget a visit to Chisinau, as it leads the world in pavement/sidewalk casualties, and the less said about the public transport the better.

I simply do not think you have ever been there, not least as it is extremely hard to get to. But as always, I am happy to be proved wrong.

"The Romanian-language extract I gave you (verbatim) in fact comes from the Republic of Moldova"

Are you kidding me? I was there too and it was not in the Republic of Moldova, but in the Moldova region of Romania. Oh my... seriously you are really a curious person.

GMS - sorry, you got your languages wrong and fell into my trap, as I suspected you might.

The Romanian-language extract I gave you (verbatim) in fact comes from the Republic of Moldova: dates of the conference/forumul were 15-16 November 2007, and location Chisinau / Kishinev (it's a bilingual country), in the Hotel Leo Grand conference centre.

I happened to be there myself at this occasion, so have all the relevant conference materials to hand. Indeed, I even gave a presentation in PowerPoint (along with many other international guests.)

I suggest you file this exchange under "Defeats".....

In English it is customary to refer to the institution as the "Academie Francaise", without the l-apostrophe definite article, and - as you yourself recently and firmly reminded us all - this is an English-language site.

>>>If it was only the "l'" apostrophe... There you forgot la cédille du "c" > "ç" + l'accent aigu > "é". You forgot to mention them in your demonstration...

"In the same way, when referring to us, the French say "les anglo-saxons", and not "les the Anglo-Saxons". So the mutual practice is symmetrical. I have never heard anybody - from either side - complain about it".

>>>You misread my post and you enter into weird and way too obvious reasonings once again...

Here's a nice one for you, if you really are as gifted a linguist as you claim. There was a recent high-level forum chaired at Prime Ministerial level entitled "Forumul National Al Agribusinessului Din Moldova".

Tell me (a) where the definite article(s) are, (b) what it means, and (c) in which country it took place (careful- this could be a trap).

>>>You are not lucky once again, since I speak a bit of Romanian and this Moldava is obviously not the Republic of Moldova, but the "Moldava", a region of Romania (some references to "Macedonia", isn't it?). Try again to trap me, or maybe I should say you have been already trapped yourself...

In English it is customary to refer to the institution as the "Academie Francaise", without the l-apostrophe definite article, and - as you yourself recently and firmly reminded us all - this is an English-language site.

In the same way, when referring to us, the French say "les anglo-saxons", and not "les the Anglo-Saxons". So the mutual practice is symmetrical. I have never heard anybody - from either side - complain about it.

I would have thought that this point was so blindingly obvious to an educated man that I would not have to point it out. Assuming, of course, that you are an "educated man", which your endless pedantic postings make me begin to wonder.

Here's a nice one for you, if you really are as gifted a linguist as you claim. There was a recent high-level forum chaired at Prime Ministerial level entitled "Forumul National Al Agribusinessului Din Moldova".

Tell me (a) where the definite article(s) are, (b) what it means, and (c) in which country it took place (careful- this could be a trap).

Clue: it is in a Latin language, and it also isn't in Italy.

Tot ziens

so you still believe fyromanian you are makedonian???????????????the propaganda is over the game is over.you are slavs and you now this better then me.

"French is perfectly comprehensible without the accents, as the Academie Francaise admitted only recently"

>>>Where? Who? What? How? etc. etc.

Not "Academie francaise" > "l'Académie Française": you forgot l'accent aigu "é" et la cédille du "c": "ç". Not really luck this time again. Try again...

Avec mes respectueuses amitiés très sincères,

GMS.

GMS - French is perfectly comprehensible without the accents, as the Academie Francaise admitted only recently. In German one has to add an "e" in place of the umlaut, and Poles will happily admit that Polish is perfectly comprehensible without accents too (though this tends to produce odd gender results if the crossed "L" is omitted !) But they are happy to tolerate that. As for Belgian French, we always used to put the accents on on rather a haphazard basis, and nobody minded. (Just don't use a Flemish expression when using ABN in Dutch, though , as everybody minds !)

This is the voice of pragmatism over purism, and I suspect that you incline very strongly to the latter !

Mit freundlichen Gruessen

Dear Koinos Nous, if you are unable to add accents, then to not add quotes in french. You are speaking an incomprehensible and wrong french without them and you would avoid publically to show proofs of your illiteracy. I would not mention your greek language which is far worse...

Also, should I repeat you it is quite unpolite to speak in other languages than english on an international blogsite? Or did you still not assimilate what the question of "respect" is all about?

Just trying to show you with nice words how immature your attitude is.

Have a nice day,
GMS

GMS - some of us have told you before that QWERTY keyboards (as used on the majority of the world's computers) do not 'support' accents, nor even less the Greek alphabet.

So your "kind" offer is about as much use as a microwave oven in a desert, to use one of the few printable Australian expressions.

However, this offer is about as useful as the rest of your postings, namely "as much use as a kangaroo in a brothel" (to use one of the less printable ones!)

G'day, sport

My dearest friend, I am there if you need some help with your french orthograph and linguistic deficiences. Do not be shy to recognize that you are quite "ignare" and "analphabète". Those things can be corrected. You can start to add accents (aigu, grave, circonflexe) and when you will assimilate this language, I can help you then with the syntax. Just trying to be as much helpful as possible.

We can use the same process to explain you that Macedonia is Greek and has always been so.

Best regards,
GMS

GMS - you appear to be using the language of the early twentieth century, certainly in English. Your word order is all to pot, for starters.

Where did you learn English, when, and how ?

Otherwise you are beginning to appear either dated in your choice of expression, or "illiterate" to use your term, or maybe both.

Do you have perhaps another European language that you can more easily converse in ? Moze byc jezyk polski, albo russkij jazyk ?

s uvazheniem

I can riposte that the term "illiterate" applies equally well to your good self.

>>>I don't think so, dear lawyer who loves to utilize the old greek rhetorics... "Illiterate" goes to a unilateral direction, that means at your residence of Skopje.

"A bon chat, bon rat" is an old fashioned french proverb which did not fit in any way in the present context... Therefore I am afraid your cultural bagage is useless if you cannot use correctly french expressions.

GMS - I loved your comment about

<<you systematically insert some bad critics about Greece>>

Who are the bad critics that I inserted, and what are their names ?

(The word "critics" in English only refers to individual people, as any fule kno.)

So when you tell me:

<<The answer is "apli", not "aplos", illiterate... >>,

I can riposte that the term "illiterate" applies equally well to your good self.

A bon chat, bon rat, comme on dit en France....

Greek Macedonian Supremacy: Don't waste your time with Koinous - he's ignored all the presented facts and tried changing the topic several times only to nitpick minor irrelevant details and follow up with ad-hominems.

Koinous: yes, economy not going so well for Greece - nor is it for the rest of the EU and super power USA. You see this, as an opportunity to badger Greece into yielding on other disputes. No way Greece will say mercy over the name issue - over 90% of Greeks support the current position, that is the point you miss.

Sasha: I think your country can have more pride with a true identity and naming itself something unrelated to Macedonia, Bulgaria or Serbia - like Vardar Republic? Not sure what you think on that exactly but even after the name issue I don't think Greeks have animosity against people from FYROM only disgruntled with a few bad choices from nationalist leaders.

It is true that in WWII our Bulgarian forefathers in Macedonia allied with Bulgaria, Germany, Italy and Croatia's Ustasi but then it was all about territorial expansion. Today it is all about recognition. Only the most hardliners e.g. Gruevski and certain fascist elements in the diaspora are forever still supporting irrendentist aims. When our leader got caught with his pants down last year photographed laying a wreath at the foot of a grave (of one of our greatest Macedonian leaders, Gotse Delchev) the condemnation from everywhere came because of his idiotic prostation to a map of a Greater Macedonia, the actual grave was overlooked. It is thses types of imbecilic misadventures that our current leader is so famously known for here among the left wing Youth of Macedonia. He (Gruevski) continues his antiquisation dreams at full speed ahead steamrolling any Slavic past we may have had and is pressing our countries archaeologists to find evidence. Pasko Kuzman is our chief archaeologist and to date has admitted several times that if we want to beat the Greeks we have to find an acropolis as proof of our ancient roots here in our republic. Ironically every bit of evidence he has found has all been identified as coming from the ancient Greek tribes. Instead of looking at our real inheritance our government is trying to dig its way into the history books of the world. Sadly our 19 & 20 the century history takes the backseat in the history books written under this government but once they are removed from power our new generation will rewrite our history boioks and give our Slavic forefathers the recognition they deserve, Long live our leaders Delchev and co.

The answer is "apli", not "aplos", illiterate...

You did not answer "precisely" to my questions. Did I ask you to speak about Greece? I asked you about "the economy of FYROM" and you systematically insert some bad critics about Greece. You are very addictive to Greece in fact. I understand it now: you love Greece and you have a complex way to show it.

Also you are out of subject. I asked you about FYROM and not about Macedonia. I am afraid therefore I cannot consider you as a serious interlocutor, if you are unable to understand and answer correctly to my questions...

GMS - the answer is simple / aplos - Macedonia is not part of the EU Exchange Rate Mechanism (ERM) nor of the EURO. Greece is both.

Hence the obvious fact - as any fule kno - that Greece has currency and economic problems at the moment, deriving from its EURO membership (i.e. it can't unilaterally devalue its own currency in response to external pressures.) Read articles elsewhere on this Sofia Echo site.

Macedonia has none of these problems, as it didn't join either ERM or the EURO. Nor has the Czech Republic (a good example of a successful non-EURO economy.)

Can I answer any more of your complex academic questions (preferably without using Wikipedia, which you strangely detest ) ??

This service is gratuit / free, thanks to the Sofia Echo and its excellent blogsite

veto too nazi,xitler nation fyrom,fasistic you are olways and stealer.

To Koinos Nous: What about FYROM's economy? Why do you try everytime to avoid the debate about FYROM, coward?

What about FYROM's economy? Why do you try everytime to avoid the debate about FYROM, coward?

Sasha, you are missing one point. Not only will the name change to Republic of Northern Macedonia. But Papandreou has already said that he wants the passports and ethnicity and language to be known as northern macedonian, not just macedonian....it is these facts that are really holding up the process not just the name of the country. But as i said, FYROM will eventually comply with all of Greeces requests because it has no other choice.

Nah, GMS, read the "Financial Times" (and also the Sofia Echo columns on the same subject too.)

The Greek economy is going down the tubes (a) because it should never have joined the EURO in the first place,(b) a lot of the services sector is in the "grey" market, and (c) national GDP is more in the Middle-Eastern league than the European one.

Other contributors on this site have said precisely the same, so I am not the first (or the last).

Single most pressing factor is that Greece should NEVER have joined the fixed-rate system (within a very narrow deviation band) of the EURO. But it only did this out of "philotimo", having successfully got its alphabet onto the EURO banknotes as a last-minute tactic (which annoyed the Germans in particular.)

Answers on a postcard, please, to Papandreou in wherever the Greek govermment is at the moment.

Personally, I would feel more confident in the government of the Republic of Moldova under the sure hand of outgoing President Vladimir Voronin.....

What about FYROM's economy? What about FYROM's completely isolated, not being in NATO and not in EU? What about FYROM never getting the name of "Macedonia"? What about FYROM's illitteracy and its backward uneducated population?

Why Greece is in trouble financially? Because Greece is the 1st investor in FYROM and it wastes too much money for a lost cause...

Nah, GMS and Stan, "jokers" is quite right, and the quality of your intellectual input is best summarised by "Macedonia Olways Greece" (do step in and correct his spelling, GMS, please. Otherwise some of us might suspect this in a "one way rule", like so much of Greek legislation...)

Nah, get real, the two of you. Greece is going down the economic tubes, and all Greece worries about are effing names. Must be a better way of managing a twenty-first century economy than that - even the Republic of Moldova does better these days !

"Greek Macedonia Supremacy

My pseudonym is not about the topic. I would not joke about such a serious issue, it's aimed at some of the bile written on here. Take for instance your pseudonym. Need i add more?"

>>>Do you refute the greek macedonian supremacy of Alexandros o Megas? Then this is indeed a "joke".

O and let's be precised and clear once for all to not repeat the same things everytime. You, Skopjans of FYROM, are Macedonians "only geographically". Let's be clear with that point. That is also the only compromise I could do for you.

I am sorry to tell you have nothing to do with the Macedonian history at any times. Forget the Roman times Macedonia Prima & Macedonia Salutaris (do the same thing like Epirus Vetus & Epirus nova nowadays). Your people were even not living at that time in this region and those Roman Macedonians were and are Greeks now, just like the Byzantines...

Your territory was greek and constituted a small part of our millenary greek region of Macedonia, before you invaded it there was not so long. Because you own one small part of this region, you can be called "Macedonians". Slavomacedonians would fit better in order to be distinguished with the Macedonians (which there is no need to say they are Greeks, just like Athenians)and the problem of identity will go into this direction.

Hope I was clear. Thanks for your attention.

Best Regards,
GMS

fasistic you are before fasitic you are now.shame on you fyromanian.how prout you are now????all world make defence the nazi and you are welcome too nazi shame,shame on you fyromanian.your DNA is fasistic like before you are the new neonazi.very thanks too stan

thanks too stan,so the new fyromanian is the new neonazi,very clear.wen all world make defence the nazi you say welcome,shame on you.before you are welcome too nazi today you are stealer history,for sure your

18 years of propaganda in FYROM? I think there's more to it than that.You have to be amazed at their tenacity. Their traditions are worthwhile and strong, but they will compromise on the name. Not because they want to, but because they have no choice. Greece is very lucky to be in the EU, otherwise things would have turned out differently. As a Greek-Australian, I call them Macedonian because I've read their modern history.

Sorry, original source of last photo: http://www.historyofmakedonia.com/?p=23

jokers: just some advice, bringing Nazis into a discussion ordinarily disqualifies you - it's called Godwin's Law. But if you really want people to bring Nazis into it here's a picture here's one for you:

http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff101/macedonia2/bulgarpro/skopjenazi.jpg

Sad isn't it? Is that a picture of "Greater Macedonia" a Skop/Gruev pipe dream with a portrait of Hitler in front? Yes, very sad.

(original source with many more pictures: http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff101/macedonia2/bulgarpro/skopjenazi.jpg)

Greek Macedonia Supremacy

My pseudonym is not about the topic. I would not joke about such a serious issue, it's aimed at some of the bile written on here. Take for instance your pseudonym. Need i add more?
Your argument or debate is based on who you once were and my country is bigger and better than yours. Which is just plain ridiculous, childs stuff. You quote that you have held the Olympic games. News flash for you so did Nazi Germany and more recently China. Both who are not recognized for the humanitarianism.
Being in Euro zone isn't an argument.Sweden and the UK aren't along with quite a few other nations. Its the people who make the country and not vice versa. You can harp on all you like about your ancient history. It doesn't count for anything in today's political society.
Both Greece & Republic of Macedonia need to resolve this issue asap. But it wont happen not with the kind of right wing and fascist attitudes shown from each side.

"there are many such accounts stored in the Oxford and Cambridge university libraries. (I know - I wrote one myself in 1962 !)"

Speaking of people from Oxford and Cambridge, according to Koinous, while they were busy jotting down how un-evolved the Greeks were they must have made some discoveries that, you guessed it, Macedonia is Greek and FYROM is part of the Paionia region. Oh my, those naughty professors:

http://macedonia-evidence.org/obama-letter.html

"We believe that this silliness has gone too far, and that the U.S.A. has no business in supporting the subversion of history."

Wow, so that's where the "silliness" reference came from?

Koinous:

"About the 1790 Greek "newspaper" of which Stan makes much - it was (a) published in Vienna, using the then new technology that I mentioned earlier, and printed to serve an emigre community numbering at best 500 people, probably far less."

That's fantastic completely irrelevant information - if you can manage to take the printing press discussion topic to another forum please do so.

The relevant point was the first newspaper printed in Greek with references to Macedonia were 1790. After that the list goes on into the 1800s and early 1900s: http://www.americanchronicle.com/articles/view/88760

http://www.americanchronicle.com/articles/view/88760

"as a country and nation you have not evolved much since. Greece is no different to most Balkan countries" - that's what happens after 400 years of Ottoman rule, two world wars and a civil war. Funny that Greece is more evolved than the rest of the Balkans but that's what communism did to eastern Europe, propaganda and indoctrination an obvious by product in FYROM still. Keep the jealousy up - Koinous, what were you doing in the 60s? plundering Greek statues?

To "jokers", with a such pseudonym, I cannot discuss "seriously" with you. The name dispute and the political problems are not "jokes". If you think so, then you don't have your place there.

"Greece is no different to most of the Balkan countries".


>With the "GREAT" exception that Greece did not take part of the Yugoslavia wars (brothers killing each others), that Greece is in the EU since 1981, that Greece hosted the Olympic Games in 2004, that Greece utilizes the european currency, that Greece has one of the most glorious histories in the world that still stokes the of jealousy their neighbors(while Skopje has nothing...), that Greece has the Aegean and Ionian seas and thousands of islands... etc. etc.
Well finally, Greece is way different to the other balkanic countries...

I am afraid Jokers is right when he says:

<< Your glorious history stopped thousands of years ago and as a country and nation you have not evolved much since. Greece is no different to most Balkan countries. >>

That was precisely the opinion of Hellenophile UK Oxbridge students when they first started travelling to present-day Greece in the 1950s and 1960s, once the aftermath of the Greek Civil War was over: there are many such accounts stored in the Oxford and Cambridge university libraries. (I know - I wrote one myself in 1962 !)

About the 1790 Greek "newspaper" of which Stan makes much - it was (a) published in Vienna, using the then new technology that I mentioned earlier, and printed to serve an emigre community numbering at best 500 people, probably far less.

(b)No record that it ever got as far as Greece. Similar newsletters were published in Imperial Habsburg Vienna in Slovene, Czech, and Croatian to serve the emigre communities of these nationalities that then lived in ( then fairly liberal) Vienna.

I doubt the technology involved in printing a newsletter at the time would ever have penetrated to Greece itself, not least as the Yugoslav north-south "autoput" had somehow not yet been built. (Careless of the Greeks, that.)

jokers: Greece in a bad financial state - that's the news of this week and hate to break it to you that's been the news of the world the last 1-2 years. FYROM negotiating on the name issue - that's been around for 18 years+. You can try to kick us when we're down but we will never sell our name.

At least people like Sasha would rather live a prosperous and peaceful life than ride the high on a wave of nationalism that's got the Balkans nowhere.

Greek Macedonia Supremacy

I'm not Macedonia or Greek.

Your glorious history stopped thousands of years ago and as a country and nation you have not evolved much since. Greece is no different to most Balkan countries.

Excellent stuff Sasha.

If only more people were like that, maybe the region would stand a chance .

I think FYROM is in a far worse situation than Greece: no NATO, no EU, country with no name, no glorious history... That's poor.

Lucky for you Greece is the number one investor of your country, or else I am afraid you would be suffering from starvation now...

I think Greece have far more pressing problems in their own backyard I.E being 1 of the most corrupt countries with in the EU and a completely bankrupt economy. Stop living in the past, you may have being an advanced culture more than 2000 years ago but nothing much has moved on since then in Greece.The future is now. Welcome to the real world.

Yes, it will change to the Republic of Northern Macedonia but as such we will still be recognised as macedonians.
It is inevitable!
Just as the americans are refered to as north americans from time to time we will also have a geographic qualifier from time to time. Ultimately, many of our people (especially the Youth) have realised for a long time that change was coming. Gruevski and his clowns, and even our own SDSM have only slowed the process by trying to encourage many (over 120) countries to recognise us unilaterally. But as many of our law student colleagues pointed out to us most of these countries only recognised Macedonia on an unofficial tokenistic platform placing their signatures as symbolic bilateral support rather than as an official international UN ratification.
So you as long as there is a will there will always be a way. Compromise by all is good for all. Stubborn conservative, jingoistic nationalistic rhetoric brings us nothing but unemployment, domestic frustration, lack of infrustructure and services and above all a over strethced egotistical diaspora whose fascist leanings will reverberate here in Macedonia for years to come. If the diaspora get their way we in Macedonia will go backwards to the days of tyranny. We have to proceed forward for the only other way is the diaspora way and that is backwards to autocratic fascism, torture, public censorship, and the disolvement of free speech.
Macedonia 4 the Macedonian YOUTH.
We must take our political fight to the fascist diaspora.

Koinous: Gone missing on this thread? - did you read all the overwhelmingly Greek Macedonian newspapers from the ages and wept? Run along now little one, you got nothing.

FYROM already changed their flag in the 90's, they will change the name too. its inevitable...

Greek Macedonian Supremacy: yes I know "Macedonia" is more prestigious because it has Hellenic history behind it. Funny that country claims to be "Macedonian" with less than 40% of a region drawn up by Ottoman borders under occupation (that's right, originally Macedon was originally 90% within Greece) who descended from Slavs that speak a Bulgarian dialect claim to be "decedents" of Alexander the Great and claim to be "Macedonian". Some of them did have property in Greece but lost it because they were communist traitors along with their Bulgarian cousins and not usurp Greek history by cooking their own history and claiming they lost their property along ethnic lines. Greece cannot let them get away with it.

Koinous: Here's the other list:
http://www.americanchronicle.com/articles/view/88760

Oh my 1790, that is in the 18th century.

Stan is right. Before Tito, this region was called Vardar/Vardaska. This should have been the name of this country: Republic of Vardar. But Vardar has a such poor history (to not say any) that it would not have been possible for this country to get an international spot with a name which sounds more like "Barbar".

On the other hand, "Macedonia" and Alexander sound more prestigious. Alexander the Greek is internationaly well-known and probably one of the most impressive conquerors ever with Ghengis Khan in the world history (while Vardar has any hero, but zero anyway...). So then they decided to fabricate a Macedonia ethny and to deny the existence of the already-undisputed-original Macedonia, which is not a state, but a region of Greece. That's the whole story with this subject: how to steal the history and cultural heritage of another country? You got the manual with FYROM.

Koinous, you are correct was a typo - 19th century is what it it meant to say - go read: http://www.macedoniaontheweb.com/forum/free-speech-macedonia-forum/874-greek-macedonian-newspapers-late-19th-century.html

The fake "macedonians" with the Bulgarian dialect of today were overwhelmingly called Bulgarians back then.

Stan -

<< Go back to the 18th Century and you will find Greek newspapers (written in GREEK) with Makedonia all over it. >>

Really ? Newspapers only emerged even in England in the late 1780s with the advance of printing / paper feed technology, and it would be surprising if TO BHMA or TA NEA emerged in Athens at the same time under the Turkish occupation, not renowned for its innovation in technology.

Do tell us more - you may have achieved a break-through in the history of technology.

Or is it maybe another "Cornish episode" for you ?

(Your history of Cornwall's "Nordic Past" has already prompted gales of email LOL laughter, all the way from Penzance to Bodmin. I took the liberty of copying your immortal words to Mebyon Kernow, the Cornish nationalist organisation.)

the deal nead two,and gruefski just play too win time,i now 50 years propaganda is not izzy too forget,be sirius you never be macedonian you are slavs,total difrent from macedonian by sirius historic,and not by fyrom books.

agess some people from fyrom the forget,greece is member of europe!!we never give you the okey.if you dont stop the propaganda and the lies.on e.u we have lot of pacet stealer we dont nead more!!!

As for the article, who does it matter to the most if there is a breakthrough or not? A few years ago Gruev likened the veto to a diplomatic atomic bomb - so by Gruev's own assessment that means not so good news for FYROM? Jobs, not statues Gruev.

observer: Greece never wanted the term Macedonia obliviated - that is FYROM propaganda. Go back to the 18th Century and you will find Greek newspapers (written in GREEK) with Makedonia all over it. How do you explain the FYROM region being called Vardar before Tito?

It would be good to have a different leader but as it stands we have a right wing conservative (failed ex-boxer) running our country with the diaspora pulling the strings to every bit of decision making taking place. EU will see Macedonia as one of its members but as said before the question is when. As a new wave of nationalistic pride sweeps our country prior to the dec.7 EU meeting, Gruevski is stoking the flames of nationalism by broadcasting a reinvigorated diaspora push to convince the people that it is the Greeks, Bulgarians, and the opposition (SDSM) who are barricading progress and not him. As usual he refrains from telling our people what his strategies are (except for recycled crap like the double name formula, with a sprinkle of antiquisation rubbish) and plays on the public's ignorance for self gratification. Thankfully many of the educated young are not so easily deceived by our ex-boxer leader and have voiced their concerns throughout Macedonia. So yes everybody it is only a matter of time and the EU will have a new member.
Macedonia $ the Macedonian Youth Forever.

Sorry - Periclis - as Clear As Mud.

the greece side is very clear!

Sahsa: hate to tell you but the "whether you like it or not" part, afraid so - only Greece if likes it you will get in just as FYROM entered NATO. The people of FYROM deserve better yes I admire the quote "jobs not statues". Next election vote the nationalists out.

"Proud Mac": why do you consider Turks Greek inbreds? Had you known your real history you would know that FYROM and most of the rest of the Balkans were part of the Ottoman empire.

This weekend Droutsas said for FYROM not no get it's hopes up..lol! How are we selfish? We have people here that want our history and name and you call it sefish? Now you my friend are selfish.

Get over it and stop living in the past. All this proves why this region of Europe is in such a mess. I'm sure the Greeks will try and oppose Turkeys entry to the EU as well. Greece is nothing in the modern world other the a selfish nation of people who cheat each other.

To all my nationalistic Greek friends, Macedonia will get in whether you like it or not. This is not about the regressive jingoistic politics playing straight into the hands of the blinkered few who represent what is the worst in every society (mine included). This is about having the rightful justice to allow a people to participate in the membership of the European family. We have our own nationalists starting from our current leader but that does not mean to say that our people are all nationalists. Many of our educated youth have realised the futile political rhetoric our current government has been disemminating for the last few years and are ready for a fair compromise (a geographic prefix and not a double formula) which will not harm our Slavic identity. Yes we are Macedonians but unlike you (Greeks, Vlachs, Albanians, Roma), we have a Slavic background. The antiquisation that Gruevski and his little sidekick Milososki have been supporting is an imported strategy thanks to our fascist minded diaspora who somehow are brainwashed in believing we are descendeds of Al. Veliki. There are many in Macedonia who have been caught up in this illusionary farce but I assure you there are far many more who won't be ridiculed with these fabrications and know their ancestry from our Slavic ancestors such as Delchev, Gruev, Sarafov, Karev, etc. As Macedonians we are proud of our Slavic heritage and will defend it. There is room for all of our Macedonian identities (Slavic, Greek, etc.) and just as the Americans, Swiss, Belgians, Australians, Canadians, etc., we can easily live with the knowledge that we are all hybrids of regional identities. Remember one thing, nationalism (esp. in diaspora) seaches for sheep minded people to recruit for autocraticism, while the rest of us are fighting for a fair,just, and equal society which allows our people to practice freedom. The current state machinary has its hands in every cog that operates the instituional fabric. Our media and Uni's are stringently monitored by the state not allowing a shred of information into the public domain until state censorship has had its turn, although most if not all (esp. our Albanian citizens) of us have learnt to live with this injustice. The EU means an end to this fascist style practice which means Gruevski's power would automtically receive its first taste of life as a puppet. This would be a big blow to his diaspora nationalistic (antiquisationists) alliance who would feel their grip slipping on our country. EU we are coming if not this year we will see you soon enough.
Macedonia for the Macedonian Youth Forever.

I say get Cyprus to veto FYROM; it's as simple as that and let Gruveski Velikiotov get ripped apart by the rabid hordes for his abject failure and idiotic nationalistic posturing; that'll teach him and all the other FYROMistani knuckledraggers.

Isn't it ironic now greece wants a geographic qualifier when at the beginning of this stupid dispute they claim whole ownership of Macedonia. I do think now they realise that history is starting to unfold their injustce. Before the break up of Yugoslavia, greece did not have a problem. Infact they wanted the term macedonia oblivious in their society. Funny how now they are trying to convince the world that this new state is trying to steal history with a straight face.. We are not stupid :-)

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Papandreou, Veto them again! Don't let their propaganda go any further. We have the real Macedonia.With her real history, museums,and real statues,coins, and inscriptions all written in greek.Slavic nothing. Let these slavs enjoy dying a slow death by becoming muslims. Gruevski sold them out already. Let the Albanians turn them to nothingness.You slavs can never have Macedonia.Try and we here nothing you will be bombed.

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Gruevski is doing the best for both Macedonia and Europe. Lets stop these Greeks(Turk inbreads) from spreading more propeganda.

Don't worry. Even if Greece doesn't utilize his VETO, and it can still use it during the negociations process.
The EU members will acclaim a non VETO of Greece for a brilliant diplomatic attitude, and back then Greece's position.
It's a win-win situation for both cases.

Papandreou please do not fall for Grueskis Tactics, you have to Veto fyroms entry into the European Union. and continue the veto for Nato.
You cannot negotiate in good faith with such a fanatical group.