Sasha,if you realy are Macedonian you dont show it.By supporting the Socio-Democrats who have sold us to the Greeks for 16 years for their own pockets,than you are a fool.I see you are supporting the secret meettings of Frckovski and Trifun with the enemies of our people.My friend, the communist era is long gone,and the conservative government of the Republic of Macedonia with Gruevski on the helm,I am HAPPY!If the Socio-Democrats were fighting as much as Gruevski,I would have said the same.Unfortunatly,the SD are selling us to the higher reward of money.Dind Frckovski receive a rollex from the Greeks?Did any Macedonian for 16 years before Gruevski asked about the fate of the Macedonians in Greece?Tell me, who is the joker?Oh,one more thing to ask you;You are complaining about the living conditions in the Republic of Macedonia,have you asked yourself how are our brothers and sister in Aegean Macedonia?They are even denied the basic Human Rights,I should know,I come from there.

Peter, the problem with your diaspora views is that while you live in your host country you portray yourself as an ardent patriot. But in fact when your bunch of antiquisation dreamers come to Macedonia all you do is complain about every bit of social deficiency we have, starting with the lack of reliable infrastructure. It is so typical to give us an account of your hysterical history no doubt gobbled and digested from the master diaspora IDIOT R. Stefov who has fabricated more Balkan history than anyone. When our Macedonian Think Tank DEMOS recently held seminars at various Universities one of the most significant topics was the dangers of fabricating our historical narrative. Your famous fascist leader (Gruevski)has done everything in his power (with diaspora money) to bring antiquisationism into our beloved Macedonia building statues so your tunic loving boys can fantasise. Thanks to many in our uni's especially the Macedonian Youth and with support of our SDSM student leaders the real history of our nation of our Slavic roots will never die out. Gotse Delchev must turn in his grave every night to know that the VMORO he created has been taken over by right wing fascists denouncing our Slavic heritage and especially his praise for the "resilient character of our Bulgarian people throughout Macedonia." You say Peter that we are somehow trying to be you, my friend we only your Bulgarian surname belongs to us your fascist ideology belongs to your idiot leader Gruevski and your diaspora. Whatever Miller has done to your arguments is only of your concern. The Greeks have also a reason to defend their identity but here in Macedonia we will defend ours as well without your Greek Al. Veliki crap. Just as you can forever wish to wear skirts and drink rakiye under the new AL. Veliki statue in Skopje with all your Bum friends when you come here for your annual holiday, we the locals who live here remain under Delchev's, Gruev's, Karev's, Sarafov's, hadjinikolov's, etc., words of wisdom. You can't sell us out for your idiotic fantasies and we will never reduce ourselves to people of your nature which we are not.

Macedonia 4 the Macedonian Youth forever.

May the diaspora buy ever bigger houses to fit their ever bigger heads in and also bigger cars to carry around their bags of money.

Sasha,What is wrong with you my friend,you cant find your ancestry? Why in the world you denying your own identity and trying to steal our Macedonian?Is it our history that tends to take you away from your own,or are ashamed of your own history?I can find no other reason for you to continualy fabricate the facts of history.Are you part of the Miller group?Do you know that Miller lost more than 75% of his co-signatories?Remember,the truth is the might!People who tend to pretend they are what they are not,for me you are nobody.

Dear Sasha,
I am greatly impressed with your enlightened comments about the fascist diaspora and your bulgarian roots. how can i contact you? i want more insight into the bulgarian people in macedonia?

Yes I am a Macedonian who has Bulgarian origins like the vast majority of my Macedonia countrymen.
Nikola Karev raised the flag at krushevo and despite your mistaken source the flag was the same Bulgarian flag type that Sandanski used to march into istanbul with during the young turk event. The 16 ray sun is not part of who we are as Slavs but part of a regional symbol hijacked by many to usurp their pretensions. Yes there are some images looking like 16 ray suns in our churches throughout macedonia (& Greece, Bulgaria, and even St sophia in istanbul) but that is stretching the issue a bit trying to imply that it has some type of continuity. Gruevski is at the moment the biggest enemy of all left leaning Youth in Macedonia and as our universities disemminate information ridiculing this fabricated campaign of antiquisation by Gruevski and his fascist diaspora we the Youth of Macedonia are working hard to reach our misinformed people. You can try to create crap about Al. Veliki and his Greek background but our revolutionary leaders as you mentioned Delchev and co. fought for our Macedonian freedom regardless of background. Everyone who has taken the time to educate themselves parallel to our oppresive school curriculum will have read Gotse Delchevs private memo's which not only revere our Bulgarian origins in Macedonia but coming from Prilep myself he writes of our towns famous Bulgarian school system which he himself helped establish. We will never lose our Macedonian identity regardless of who compromises but with Gruevski we lose our pride of who we are now and that is not fabricated ancients but a true Slavic people proud of our Bulgarian language, oros, cuisines, etc.
You see # 1 you may regard Gruevski as your saviour but in reality he is your curse the curse of the diaspora who have for years let this issue carry on unresolved for it suited them to have some crap association with an ancient fabricated past and suckers like Gruevski are but mere puppets of these fascist people and nothing more. As long as our Macedonian Youth counter the oppresive propaganda from our right wingers we will always fight for the truth about our identity just as Delchev wanted not some Al. Veliki rubbish.
Macedonia $ the Macedonian Youth forever.
Down with the fascist diaspora and their puppet Gruevski.

Shasha,you obviously are Bulgarian,and I respect you.What I dont respect you for is the following;The krushevo Republic raised the 16 Ray flag that has been found in the occupied Macedonia,not in Bulgaria or Greece proper.Throighout the geographical Macedonia you are able to find the 16 Ray flag in every Macedonian churches.You donnot find this in a Greek or Bulgarian churches.The Prime Minister of Macedonia Gruevski will never sell us out to you or the Greeks.Of course we do have people who would sell their soul,skin for money like the likes of Crvenkovski,Frckovski etc.But,we also have people like Gruevski who continues in the path of Gotse Delchev,Nikola Karev,Jane Sandanski,Pitu Guli and many more who fought for the freedom of all Macedonians and the oppresset.As Gotse Delchev said"I am not againts the Turks,I am againts the tyrany they bestowed upon us".Todaythis Macedonian leader Gruevski is holding the same principal.We the Macedoniana do not hate people like you do,we hate the lies you are spreading throughout the world.It is ketchin g up with you and your fabrications.

Risto - what's the wine like in Macedonia ? Greek wine can be an acquired taste that few have acquired, but Bulgarian wine can be genuinely very good indeed (especially from the Mavrud grape variety.)

What olive branch, Macedonia doesn't grow any olives! Macedonia is the land of pigs, everywhere you go the farms have pigs. In Bulgaria we have cattle, the Greeks Olive trees, and the Macedonians pigs. So they should have offered us a nice succulent piglet and a few apples. Good luck!

Peter is right we will never lose our Macedonian identity but not on the terms he thinks (e.g. Gruevski). We will become the new EU member Northern Macedonia and all who like it or not will end up having to put up with it. Our diaspora (Peter?) who have bankrolled Gruevski thus far will also, although grudgingly have to accept the new reality. Our forefathers Delchev, Karev, Sarafov, etc., will rejoice that our country will have finally entered the EU with all our Slavic, Greek, Albanian, and Vlach cousins. All of us proud Macedonians and all as he wrote Macedonians from all our different backgrounds. When Delchev studied Levski's famous revolutionary strategies the one he admired the most was how Levski who criss-crossed Macedonia frequently stated that our Bulgarian people are everywhere and with the rest of the other Macedonian peoples (e.g. Greeks, Vlachs, Romas, Turks) they will liberate themselves from tyranny and oppression. Macedonia is home to us all and as such we will never give up our Macedonian identity. Our Slavic roots are as deep as many of the other Macedonians (except for the Greeks, Albanians who are longer here) so we have a right to call ourselves like the rest of you Macedonians.
Long live the Macedonian Youth.

On my honor of a Bulgarian businessman;)!
Seriously.
I saw them on A1 Salzburg to Munich, but on the German side.
Actually, driving in the US at times I wished that they had those Turkish types too, because folks there would step on the regular ones, because they are notoriously filthy - you can regularly see the footprints on the seat.

Enough filth talk;)

Valeri - you DO surprise me about the "squatting" toilet facilities in German Autobahn Rasthausen / rest stops. Were these in former West Germany, or in former East Germany ?

If the latter, they could well be former facilities for the Russian Army turned over to civilian use.
(There use to be a big "Mitropa" Rasthaus complex at the north-south / east-west AutobahnKreuzung between Gera and Jena in the old DDR, with separate facilities reserved for Russian troops. None But The Brave went in there !)

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There is one thing for sure,Macedonia will not accept loosing theire identity as Greece demmands.Macedonians,relax,Gruevski will never sell off the Macedonian nation.These commentators on this site can continue making absurd comments as long as rhey wish.We will remain Macedonians as long as we are able to breath.No one was able to change us,let the dogs bark.

They have those in Singapore - actually it's more like a shower head right behind you - kind of unpleasant, all the more because you need to handle them if you'd like to use them.

Koinos,
I've seen Turkish (squatting) toilets in Germany on Autobahn rest stops.

Sorry, two small corrections:

(a) the current Turkish water-squirt is actually just below the loo seat, in the centre, and turned on by a small tap in the wall.

(b) the Soviet Army Imperial Model is only 0,5 metres off the ground (without a step, though - they breed 'em tough in Mother Russia !)

Sorry for the mistakes

Sasha - there's nothing wrong with Muslim-style toilets/loos as long as you can balance properly and are not overweight (neither of which is probably true for Diaspora Greeks and Macedonians alike.)

Curiously, they are pretty rare these days in Turkey, though Turkish loos have a water-squirt in the middle of the seat that takes time to master for foreigners. Not sure how the Diaspora would cope with this...

The best (or worst) loos are to be found in the former Soviet Union, ranging from the Imperial Squattie (1,5 metres off the ground, in bomb-proof ceramic, favoured by the military), to the archetypal Hole In The Ground, as found in the public loos in Chisinau.

Sorry, Moderators - off topic, but a fascinating one to post about !

O.t.F
You are right my friend the Sun rises in the West.

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Aries, your fables are approaching the level of Aesop, congratulations!!

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Education is a virtue. For many in the diaspora education is big cars and even bigger houses. They care little of our woes at home. History has taught little to many who claim they know it (e.g. Peter). It is a farce to propose that our Macedonian ancestors were the only ones locked in a struggle. When VMORO decided to use the revolutionary Levski's symbols of pistols and bible our forefathers were commiting themselves to the fight for freedom not against people's but ideology's. Nikola Karev put up the Bulgarian flag in Krushevo to proclaim the first Macedonian republic and it flew freely until it was torn down by the invading Turks. In Bitola, Krushevo, Ohrid, Gevgeljia, strumica our famous rebel leaders have left their seed and nobody not the diaspora or even the nationalistic government can change that not even you Mr Facts man (diaspora cynic). Live in your ivory towers for as long as you can for as your diaspora mentality assures us here in Macedonia that you will always remain an outsider. We know of many in the diaspora who have never set foot in Macedonia and when they do they complain about everything from lack of water to muslim style toilets to what they call backward living standards. We know of your arrogance towards us here but it is true that we also know of your blinkered views and as such you remain a threat to all Macedonians who want a future (without Big houses and cars). Macedonia for the Macedonian Youth forever!

Not much sign of an olive branch on this site so far (!), but I think Sasha is right about the undue influence of the diaspora on all this issue. (And maybe not just the Macedonian diaspora.....)

Meanwhile, Aries, the sun of course rises and sets in the south (at least it does round here ! - south-east in the morning, south-west in the evening.)

Yes my man Peter/dr Oz.
The sun rises in the west as you wish.......

It is so absurd for people who claim that there is no Macedonia or Macedonians.You people if I can clasify you as such are such liers or you dont know the history.The Macedonian people fought for their freedom for centuries againts the Ottoman Empire.The problem is that the Greeks and Bulgarians pretending to go after the Ottomans,they in reality were after the Macedonian teritoties in 1912-13.Today, Macedonia is trying so hard as painful as it is to improve the relations with those who are still thinking the demise of Macedonia and its people.You people are shameles for the claims of Macedonia being either Greek or Bulgarian.Bulgaria has shown its fangs in 1925 at the League of Nations when the Greek high ranking representative Vasilis Dendramanis acknowleadged that "there is Macedonian language that is neither Serbian nor Bulgarian but a distinct Macedonian language,distinct identity and culture."The big problem with our neighbours is their internal politics of how to excite the popolution for votes.Knowing the Balkans who are way behind the European countries it is no suprise.The Macedonian Prime Minister was correct to tell Mr.Borisov that the history belongs to the historians.The problem is Bulgaria nor Greece want to establish a panel of historians to decide the truth.The question than is;Why Greece and Bulgaria are afraid of a panel such as the one PM.Gruevski proposed?Both these countries know,it will show who are the historical liers.

O.t.t
The facts were from a turkish source the rest is silent.
You are right my friend the sun rises in the west and sets in the
east.

My good friend Sasha me thinks you are not one who you propose to be! So stop with your Bulgarian or Greek twisted logic and be straightforward as Aries, but whom makes up his own imaginary census!!!

Its always good to get all these Diaspora (film Chicago) wannabes out of the woodwork. They live in a host country and attempt to dictate our country's politics. One thing will remain constant our Macedonian heritage cannot separate itself from its Slavic roots and thereby all these fantasy seeking diaspora dreamers can keep living in their own little caribbeans. When VMORO created its network it depended on all Macedonians whether they were Bulgarian (Delchev, Gruev, Sarafov, etc.), Greek (Hadjisavas), Vlach (Pitu Guli), Albanian (Karageorg) and even Roma (Petrov) who all fought the common enemy. I know it takes a lot of education for our diaspora brothers to pull their heads in and read something more recent than Al. Veliki and his Greek escapades, but let me assure you before we became Yugoslavs we were Macedonians of Bulgarian ancestry and many of our people all still know it in Macedonia. Otherwise there would be no famous revolutionary songs and oro celebrating our forefathers feats.
One last word film Chicago and all your Yugoslav orientated diaspora, here in Macedonia, we the Macedonian Youth will uphold and keep your right wing mentality accountable for all your narrow-minded views. Thankfully we the Macedonian Youth are finally breaking free from your irrendentist agendas, and antiquisation politics.
Just Grow up and face your future in the EU as good proud Macedonians upholding our Slavic origins.
Macedonia for the Macedonian Youth.

basilmacedon
please do me a big favor.
GET LOST
h aldelfh tou meg'alexandrou

yeah yeah yeah. .and bla bla bla.

Thessaloniki (name of Macedonian Princess) or.. Solun?
Simple bre.. just a question to answer. .and you cant bre.. "Macedonians"..lol lol :)

Have a better look my friend
In Bitola only
a/muslims and albanians 24.713
b/ Greeks and Grecianized Vlahs 30,036
c/ Bulgarians 30,891
d/ Jews 4,264
Krusevo
A/ Muslims 140
b/ Grecianized Vlahs and Greeks 5,305
c/ Bulgarians 5,838
in Ohrid.
a / muslims 8135
b/ Grecianized Vlahs and Greeks 746
c/ Bulgarians 17,535/
and so on
a simple addition if your arithmetic is sstill wirthh for the whole vilaet of Monastir the number of Greeks and Grecianized Vlachs is approaching minwe and not yours
the majority of the BULGARIANS IS UNCONTESTED OF COURSE.
HENCE YOU ARE OF BULGARIAN ROOTS
THAT IS FOR SURE THE SOONER YOU ACCEPT IT THE BETTER FOR YOU.





Cheers

To the modern Greeks, How can you be so racist and vulgar,when your people consist of Slavs, Albanians, Turks, Vlachs, Roma and today Indian,Pakistani and African!!
To Aries, the 1873 Ottoman tax census Bedel-Askeriye of Monastir Vilaet states 150,000 Slavs, 40,000 Muslim and 700 Greek men!!So get real and get your facts right!!
To you other Greeks, also get your facts right, sure you had some of your people in Macedonia since antiquity, but you were always a minority and in all true democracies the the majority rules baby!!

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Dimitri
Sorry my friend,there was no Macedonian vilayet.There was a Monastir Vilayet with over 40.000 Greeks in it. Monastir today Bitola there exists a Greek Cemetry.

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"Nikola Gruevski was right in those comments in Australia."
Why?
There was a Macedonian vilayet in the Ottoman Empire?
When the terms "Aegean Macedonia Prin Macedonia" etc appear?
Did they exist before the treaty of San Stefano? The "Macedonian identity" was a Bulgarian creation to unite territories of the Ottoman Empire that they where not included as Bulgarian after the treaty of Berlin. Look the Internal Macedonian Revolutionary Organization everything is Bulgarian. Tito used this "Macedonian identity" to separate the the Vardaskan population from Bulgaria and to get territorial claims from Greece.
He is right to what?
His state of mind is in the 1800's
He and his group of Nazis are a danger not only for his country but for the entire region and the sad part is that in his country people are afraid to speak up. Did you read his statement about getting rid of traitors?

Not all of us macedonians (like CK) have such blinkered views. There are many in Macedonia who openly declare our Bulgarian origins as opposed to the Yugoslav identity. It is one thing to call yourself a Macedonian but another to quantify which one. Gruevski's disillusionment continues everywhere he goes. He openly proclaims antiquisation rhetoric at home causing incredible division among our people while he keeps trying to appease the diaspora communities by a call of unity. Many of us are aware of our proud Slavic heritage and have revealed in many Macedonian University campuses platforms of public debate but Gruevski's supporters tend to be absent. The logic we are told is that there are not many right wing students and thus Gruevski has little support among the bigger universities. Gruevski, is where he is, thanks to the ongoing financial charity of the diaspora otherwise he would have been long gone like his failed and highly ridiculed boxing career which he probably should have continued, at the very least to keep us amused. The Macedonian Youth will prevail and in the end we will be in the EU with or without this incompetent government. Macedonia 4 the Macedonian Youth!

Todor:

"The Balkan Wars ran from, what, 1910 to 1912? didn't you get the memo! they are over!"

To us they are Todor, not to them. They are still in the Yugoslav inertia of ethnicity and land, and the Balkan wars as far as they are concern were in 1999, not 1912.

CK, the problem is this was long a regional name for a wider region including Greeks, Bulgarians, other Slavs who did not consider themselves Macedonians, as well as Slavs who considered themselves Macedonians, Bulgarians, Greeks and Albanians who considered themselves Macedonians in the regional but not ethnic sense, etc.

Look at your comment "from Pirinska to Vardarska" It is a claim in another country!

I hear all the time from people in "Macedonia" that they have a claim to "Macedonia" and "Macedonians" outside the borders. Well what about the Bulgarians, Greeks and Albanians within your borders?

Right no estimates are that there 40% Albanians in Macedonia and the number will be 60% in two or three generations. What if they wish to change the name of the country to Eastern Albania? Would that be ok?

CK, the fact is the kind of language you just used is EXACTLY why Greeks, Bulgarians and others who want to move forward are worried by nationalists like yourself in Skopje. If we were hearing out of Skopje that the name was a formality based on the traditional regional name it would be one thing, not so worrying; but as long as you talk of "Pirin Macedonia" "Aegean Macedonia" or "Macedonians in Greece or Bulgaria you remaini in a mode from a hundred years ago and you neighbors to the south and East who are DONE with those wars and absurd claims and wan to move forward.

I live in a town (Tsarevo) that was formally entirely Greek. My great grandparents were thrown out of Greece that was entirely Bulgarian just as militants here threw out the Greeks of Tsarevo a couple of years earlier. I do not want my children to fight those wars anymore. When you and your idiotic politicians in Skopje get with the program of stopping claims, let us know and everyone will be happy to let you join the club of civilized Balkan neighbors!

The Balkan Wars ran from, what, 1910 to 1912? didn't you get the memo! they are over!

Yeah CK,
you called yourselves that because you were born there. So were the Albanians, so were a bunch of Greeks.
It's a region, not a nation.
You are trying to expropriate something that isn't yours, and on top of that, at time of desperate need you antagonize your neighbors by projecting future territorial complications.

You can cry to me all you want how poor you are, but as they say in Bulgaria (your grandfather's country) "цървули нема за гайда плаче";)
Need Serb translation?

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Nikola Gruevski was right in those comments in Australia. I say that any country has its own sovereign right to declare itself whatever it has been. Fair enough, if it was a made uo thing, but us Macedonians actually have been calling ourselves as long as we can remember, it has passed on form generation to generation. I will not let any president or current political figure of any neighbouring country make me say something any different as we would be damaging our identity. Quite simply it just is not fair. I mean think about it, Macedonia is one of the poorest if not poorest countries in Europe. Ensuring EU membership means everything economically. Surely one must think, hold on, maybe these guys actually think and feel macedonian... maybe they arent lying about their identity after all etc.. Anyway, from egejska to pirinska, to vardaska, to canada and australian and everywhere else in the world: Macedonia for the Macedonians - as millions around the world will agree with me on this 1 :)

After he messed up for them with all of their neighbors with fantastic ancient history gibberish, he's come to Sofia for some R&R ass kissing to make it better.

"This included abjuring the use of hate speech, and a refusal to tolerate groups who created problems in bilateral relations,"

LOL, like telling folks in Australia that he'll liberate the "Pirin Makedonians"?

That loser should be kicked out before any support for FYROM. Go back to Serbia - oh forgot! They dropped them too....