Alexandra - the word for Macedonian in French (Macedoine) indicates a food product that is a mixture of ingredients....so basically "Macedonia" means "mixture"

If you want to question the ethnic equivalence of this, look at what happened with the ethnic transfers into geographical Macedonia of Turkish "Pontus" Greeks in 1922-1924, or the ferocious "Civil War" struggles in the same place in 1946-49, which resulted in a fair amount of what is euphemistically called "population movement", otherwise known as mutual deportations between Greece and Jugoslav Macedonia.

Small detail: when you say "Slavonia", you are actually referring to that part of Croatia nearly destroyed by the 1990s Civil War in Jugoslavija, centred upon Osijek, Vukuvar, and Ilok. I'm not sure that that's really what you meant....

call your selves Slavonians my dear not Macedonian.If you are a Macedonian you are Greek in blood.
If You go against the Greeks, you go against the real Macedonians and that proves you are a SLAV.Your last names relate to Russian and Slavonic language not Macedonian.

Here's an interesting view from somewhere else on this site (the post about Turkey and toleration):

<< Too late Turkey! The Lisbon Treaty is in force now and that brings qualified majority voting - QMV - (by nation state and by population)on any new member.

It would only take say Greece, Bulgaria, Holland and one other state of any size to prevent Turkish inclusion. So far those against are Denmark, Holland, Latvia, Estonia, Hungary, Austria, and Greece. >>

This correspondent (no connection at all with me !) makes a very good point.

Apply this new QMV principle to Macedonian EU Accession, and Greece does not have a Veto any more on its own (it would need quite a lot of member-states to support it !)

Interesting.....

It is not worth the flight if you want my humble opinion.
No needs to travel so far for me. I prefer by far to take my car and to visit the archeological macedonian sites of Pella or Vergina... in Greece.

GMS - Maybe you should go on a cheap weekend flight to Vilnius and say that ?

Local young men welcome constructive criticism from foreigners and would be glad of your comments, especially if expressed in an "Alus Baras" or beer bar; I can recommend the one under the Soviet-era Hotel Lietuva as a good starting-place (you can't miss it - it's the tallest building in Vilnius after they knocked down the statue of Lenin !)

Other than that, this site is of interest:
http://www.historyworld.net/wrldhis/PlainTextHistories.asp?historyid=ac98

Or this one from the BBC (note the bit about survival of the old pagan religions):

http://www.historyworld.net/wrldhis/PlainTextHistories.asp?historyid=ac98

Labas vakaras (bonsoir)

And I still do not know a single "historically well-known" personality from Lithuania...

While in Greece, we always have Pericles, Plato, Aristotlee, Constantin, Alexander the Great, to just mention 1-2 examples among thousands...

Nah, the history of Lithuania is too obscure and unknown. It is more a myth than anything else. And since Lithuania is not part anymore of USSR, it losts a big part of its history...

Russia (Rossiska Federatsiya) has the largest land mass of any country in the world, as did the USSR before it.

Lietuva / Lithuania is well known to every inhabitant of Russia and the former USSR, as one of the "heartland" countries of Europe, and the source of Europe's oldest civilisation and language.

Greece, in contrast, is known there as a small and impoverished country with a troublesome post-1945 past, and next-door to the Near East, from whence comes even more trouble daily. Also nobody else can read the Greek alphabet, whereas everybody in the former USSR (including Lietuva/Lithuania)can read Cyrillic, even if they don't use it on a day-to-day basis.

Need I say more ?

S uvazheniem / labanaktis

To Koinos Nous: with the monster difference that Greece's history is internationally known and recognized as one of the greatest ever, while the history of Lithuania is ...hum well ignored/unknown for most of the people in this world.

Thanks to G.M.S. I see what the Greek problem lies in history.
It seems that in ancient times the Greeks translated other peoples names and places in their words then over time believed that these words and places were theirs.
Which brings us to the so-called modern Greeks, who are doing the same thing.
You Greeks must understand that because some words have Greek roots doesn't make it Greek.
Names changed over the centuries does not make one change ones identity!

Well, I'm not sure whether the Lithuanians know where Greece is situated either - the ignorance may be mutual, as the last time I saw a map of Europe in Vilnius it showed Greece as still being part of the Ottoman Empire. (There was some effort made there to obtain pre-Soviet maps back in 1991 with independence from the USSR, and possibly they went back a bit too far !)

Anyway, both countries share an imperial oppressor (USSR and Turkey), both have an ancient Indo-European language (though Lithuanian / Lietuveskai is older), and both have a pantheon of pagan Gods which in Lithuania's case are still respected (and children are still named after them.)

For example: Perkunas (God of Thunder), Sialius (Sun God), Nijole (Goddess of the Underworld), and so on.

Now they are both EU member-states, it may be that Greece has met its match at last in the "antiquity stakes".

Hopefully I am there to rectify some points, or else people would believe in your pseudo-erudition.

Your "buzzin" site is really amateurish and cannot be considered seriously as a source. It seems you consider the thousands of google pages like 100% sure value. You are a bit too much naive, but that makes you a sympathetic person.

I want to point you have "des idées arrêtées" (since you enjoy to speak in different languages: maybe I should select esperanto next time) about things that you even do not know what their meaning is. This is the problem there: syntax and punctuation are both the same and that is internationally known by most of the people. But since you know you are totally wrong, you are desperately looking instead for support with some obscure websites created by pseudo-intellectuals... I am afraid there I cannot help you, if you prefer your ego than to recognize your mistakes.

"Iki pasimatimo - see you soon , as they say in Vilnius - no, sorry, Skopje. As we both know, everybody in Skopje really speaks Lithuanian / Lietuveskai, but they hide it by speaking their Slavonic language to Greek visitors so as to confuse them".

Last time you said you were Belgian? Now you changed nationality ?

"The Lithuanians actually speak Europe's oldest Indo-European language by far, which means that they pre-date the Hellenes / Greeks".

>>>Please, did I read it right? What kind of distorted and unlogic reasoning is that: Lituanians > indo-european language> older language than Greek > Veto from Greece??

This is an impressive story, but what Greece has to do once again with it?
I do not think most of the Greeks even know where Lituania is situated nowadays, unless it assimilates it with the ex USSR...

GMS - here's a "syntax" definition which is not from Wikipedia, which I imagine you will therefore accept. It makes it very clear that syntax is not punctuation (in English it's more about word-order, as Chomsky says). As it is aimed at 12 year old pupils in English schools I hope you will find it easy to understand:

http://www.buzzin.net/english/syntax.htm

Happy to aid in your educational process.

Iki pasimatimo - see you soon , as they say in Vilnius - no, sorry, Skopje. As we both know, everybody in Skopje really speaks Lithuanian / Lietuveskai, but they hide it by speaking their Slavonic language to Greek visitors so as to confuse them.

The Lithuanians actually speak Europe's oldest Indo-European language by far, which means that they pre-date the Hellenes / Greeks.
I don't think that Greece realises this yet, otherwise it would have vetoed Lithuania's EU accession.

Funny old world, innit ?

Oh my dear!

I am afraid that Chomsky will not be helpful for you. Syntax and punctuation are both the same thing.

"Meanwhile, I must go along to the local branch of the British Museum in Skopje (ulica Marshal Tito), and admire their excellent copy of the Elgin Marbles. Which, as the inscription says, were carved by Skopian sculptors enslaved by Greece.)"

>>>And finally, after lot of negociations and efforts, you recognize that you are a Skopjan. Will you do now the same with the Republic of Vardar?

GMS, oh dear, Invincible Ignorance stikes again !

Punctuation and syntax / grammar are NOT the same thing. Just read internationally recognised expert Noam Chomsky, and only then feel free to reply.

Meanwhile, I must go along to the local branch of the British Museum in Skopje (ulica Marshal Tito), and admire their excellent copy of the Elgin Marbles. Which, as the inscription says, were carved by Skopian sculptors enslaved by Greece.)

I must also go into the Skopje English library too, to read all the English papers delivered by air mail the same morning as their publication (a good deal better than you get in Athens !)

Laimingos keliones, as they say in Vilnius.

No, I haven't read such things. But it rather indicates the xenophobia subject obsesses you.

"Meanwhile, did your expertise in French orthography include a course on punctuation"

>>>Syntax and punctuation are the same thing... I mentionned the syntax in my last post, but you misread my posts as always. I could help you for free if the money bothers you. I forgot that all the economy of your country, Skopje, is invested in gigantic old-fashioned statues.

See how a Greek can be so nice and offer a free service for a Skopjan friend.

GMS - have you read Sarkozy recently about "les anglo-saxons" ? He rather leads the field in xenophobia at the moment.

Meanwhile, did your expertise in French orthography include a course on punctuation ? If so, I suggest you ask for your money back.

"Only the French agonise about misplaced prepositions and particles"

>>>Dear Koinos Nous, don't take it wrong, but after adopting an obvious hellenophobic stance, now you hate France as well? How big is your list of banned/hated countries? Your xenophobia never stops to impress me post after post.

"we spend more time making money than worrying about tiny points of theoretical grammar"

>Definitely, the worst argument that you could find to justify your illiteracy...

In Belgium and Suisse we say "matiere linguistique", because we spend more time making money than worrying about tiny points of theoretical grammar. The Canadians do even better. Only the French agonise about misplaced prepositions and particles.

Meanwhile, you have't answered ny own point about your consistent, conspicuous, and flagrant use of faulty English at all. Do you want me to post details of a helpful EFL website ?

(This is supposed to be an English-language site, after all, IIRC.)

Ever at your service - Tot Uw Dienst

On the other hand, we say "en matière de linguistique" et not "matière linguistique"...
I am forced to correct you in each of your posts.

Lucky for you, I will teach you some basic lessons of syntax too.

Always helpful for an helpless man,
GMS.

GMS - when you say:

<< Would you try to learn to a Greek how to speak Greek, while you are even not able to speak french correctly? >>

...you are apparently ignorant of two basic grammatical points in English:

(a) the verb "to learn" is only used in the passive sense. The active sense verb is "to teach", as in: "My teacher taught me Ancient Greek very well, so that I learned a great deal of vocabulary and grammar".

(b) names of languages always are given upper case/ "majiscule" in English, though the reverse is true in French, Lithuanian and Polish, also maybe German and Latvian (not sure about those two - perhaps you can advise).

Hope this helps your revision "en matiere linguistique". I think you need a bit of lingustic rejuvenation ....

Ever glad to be helpful -

mit Freundichen Gruessen

My dearest I am trying to be helpful with you, because you still are late to understand what we are writing to you. God bless me to be so patient with you.
"Megas" and "Megalos", yes both exists. Congratulations you made a stunning discovery.

But when it comes to combine it with Alexandros, we use to say o "Megas Alexandros" and not o "Megalos Alexandros". Would you try to learn to a Greek how to speak Greek, while you are even not able to speak french correctly?

"Il est plus fou d'être sage parmi les fous que d'être fou parmi les sages"...

Your dictionary will not help you if you have a lack of vocabulary and cultural knowledge. "Just another helpless fool [blank] is what you are", like use to say approximatively Teddy Pendergrass.

GMS - Well, my Liddell&Scott Greek lexicon / dictionary gives BOTH forms - megas and megalos , as does my modern Greek dictionary. As does the derivation of the English word "megaLOmania" and the French word "megaLOmanie" ?

Maybe you should buy a better dictionary yourself, or else bother to learn Greek properly ?

Always glad to be of help.

Not "megalos": Alexandros "o Megas" we use to say.
Thank you for spelling correctly the greek names next time, illitt....

Well, GMS , I read on Greek websites that Alexander the Great / Megalos (sic) invented electricity, so who am I to argue ?

It makes me wonder how we in the por benighted parts of Northern Europe ever crawled out of the primaeval swamp...or equally how Greece fell into it between 1453 and 1830 !

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Oh, my dear, this is impressive... What other parenthesis like the electricity can come out from your mind to hijack more this topic from its initial subject?

Clearly you don't know the first thing about that Classical Greek invention (personally supervised by Alexander Megalos), namely Electricity. Named after the Greek Goddess Electra, so how can its progeny be possibly questioned ?

(Clue: look up Ohm's Law on -oops, oh dear - Wikipedia, and all will be revealed. I attach a link which you might find helpful in understanding this major quantum leap in twenty-first century physics :

http://www.kpsec.freeuk.com/ohmslaw.htm )

Clearly a key part of Alexander's legacy to Civilisation As We Know It.

Ohh my dear Koinos Nous! (your forgot this sentence in your last post: some sign of anger?)

It is ironic how someone who is dyslexic (en l'occurence, a Belgian man who does not use or does not know how to utilize the accents) said then to me that I AM the dyslexic... That could be a good april joke.

Also I never wrote "vulgaire" is linked with "vailable". Read again my post. So after suffering of dyslexy, illitteracy, now we will add the myopia in the list.

"How many AC generating stations did the Ancient Romans have ? And was this 79 volts AC at RMS (root mean squared) or peak nominal voltage".

And there I have to interroge sincerely you about the critical condition of your mental health...

"Inventive people, the Romans. No wonder they divided Macedonia into two halves - M. Salutaris (northern bit round Veles) and M. Prima (southern bit round Salonika). Sensible of them - shame we aren't the same these days".

>>>Where is the electrical/logical connection with the "vulgar" wikipedia?

Unless you are dyslexic (in which case much compassion and sympathy), you have not yet explained how "Vailable" (your word) has somehow become the Belgian French word "vulgaire". You seem to enjoy playing with words yourself when it suits you, so "a bon chat, bon rat".

Similarly about dates and figures. You corrected a date (you say) into << 79 AC >>. Really ? How many AC generating stations did the Ancient Romans have ? And was this 79 volts AC at RMS (root mean squared) or peak nominal voltage.

Now I believe all those stories about the Romans having invented electric light, along with the Pompeii mosaic somehow depicting Alexander the Great, who had died 300 years previously (presumably they had also invented photography too.)

Inventive people, the Romans. No wonder they divided Macedonia into two halves - M. Salutaris (northern bit round Veles) and M. Prima (southern bit round Salonika). Sensible of them - shame we aren't the same these days.

Efkharisto poli

Oh, my dearest Koinos Nous!

Do not play with the words, please. You perfectly understand what I mean. So show a more modest attitude and recognize that wikipedia is not a "scholar" source, but a "vulgar" source (I hope you understand the meaning of "vulgar"> "vulgaire" in french belgian, which close to the sense of "popular").

So the Times says wikipedia is now as accurate as the "encyclopedia Britannica"? Really?
So how do you explain I read last time on the wikipedia page of Pompeii, the Vesuvius eruption happened in 79 BC?! I had myself to register an account to correct this "unfortunate" mistake into 79 AC.
So yes, after that, we will say wikipedia is a "serious" source... And as accurate "the encyclopedia what?...

Oh dear, GMS, you do get things wrong sometimes, especially in accusing other people of "illiteracy".

When you say:

<<
Inappropriate comment?
Oh my dear, Koinos Nous! Wikipedia is not a real vailable source. >>

....what, pray, is a "vailable source" ? Define your terms, or else learn how to spell (or equally admit that all of us - including you - make typos occasionally.)

Actually, according to the London "Times", you're also substantively wrong about Wiki,
which the Times says is now as accurate as the "encyclopedia Britannica", but I'll leave that until later.

Oh my dear, Koinos Nous! Wikipedia is not a real vailable source. Everybody can do modifications in their pages and write what they wish. You just have to register an account to do that. So naive you are... In which ivory tower do you live on?
Obviously books, reviews, periodics are still 100% better than wiki/wapedia and sure values...
By the way, it's "Kathimerini" and not "Kathemerini", illiterate...

Oh GMS - do us all a favour ! Everybody recognised wiki- and wa-pedia these days as general information sources (it's how the Sofia Echo gets a lot of its foreign readership !)

In short, please don't be a prissy prat.

Which ivory tower do you live on ?

And how do you get your oh-so-refined schaolarly information ?

Maybe it's Katheremini, or Ta Nea, or other monuments to impartial and informed journalism ?

Personally, I'd rather trust the Sofia Echo. A much better paper all round.

To the ignare pseudo-belge M. Koinos Nous: Wikipedia & wapedia are not what I would call "scholar" sources...

to GMS and to all others trying to work out the differences between French French and Belgian / Canadian French, here is a very useful and complete link:

http://wapedia.mobi/fr/Fran%C3%A7ais_de_Belgique?t=2.

Why should I be so helpful already?
GMS doesn't deserve it, but others might find this very detailed lingustic site more than useful.

For philanthropy, I'll charge more next time !

GMS - O agatheis /ignorant one -

(1) if you're working in Belgium in English or Flemish / ABN, you have a QWERTY keyboard. If you're working in German or Polish, you have a QWERTZ keyboard . Simple as that. Poprostu tak.

(2) if you're on the French side of the Franco-Belgian border, the French authorities make quite a point of being ultra-French. So you can't say "septante" or "nonante", and don't even try to say "Allez une fois" to start a sentence, as the Bruxellois do.

(3)if you are being such an advocate of correct orthography and grammar, may I suggest that you say "blinded" rather than "blind" in your last line ? That would be correct English, as we say in Skopje. To say 'blind' is rather a horrendous mistake.

Just trying to be helpful, as always.

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Greek Macedonian Supremacy:

This was a Koinous comment:

"What we really want is an outbreak of an animal disease such as foot-and-mouth ("la fievre aphteuse", as it doesn't translate otherwise) in the Vardar valley. This carries both the E 75 trunk highway and also the one railway line cannecting Greece with the north of Europe.

Such an outbreak would paralyse Greek trade with the north of Europe, and would not harm Macedonia greatly.

Oh dear, what have I just said ?
(Slap on wrist !!!) "

With such deranged comments this is a person with a deep hatred of Greece and the Hellenic people. To "really want" an outbreak of a disease to paralyse a country financially in allegedly his own country however too blind to see that FYROM truck drivers make a living from transporting goods from Greece.

Koinous is as dangerous to FYROM as Gruev. Keep it up because it supports Greece's position at the next veetooo. There should be a veto countdown clock.

Stan, you got exactly my point there with the case of Koinos Nous. "Jealousy" is the key word and we know what jealousy can have for consequences. Here is a demonstration of his actions and goals on this forum.

1/Greece has one of the greatest history in the world and nobody can refute it. But Koinos Nous tries to discredit, to downgrade, to distort it in all possible ways, and do not hesite to utilize lies...

2/He creates unexistant problems and geostrategical theories that belong to the old times and come from a fantastic book : Greece is isolated, EU members hate Greece and will exclude it because of the financial crisis, FYROM will then invade Macedonia according to Tito's prophecy, a unified Macedonia will born and Greece will be no more, etc.

3/To not say a single good word for Greece - which obviously proves he hates Greece and must be a Skopjan to feel so (that he replies in a bulgarian online newspaper is one more indice). Obviously an unobjective approach based on personal feelings...

4/To minimize the critical political situation of FYROM that he names "Macedonia" (another relevant indice, no use of the international name)

5/To attack Greece with valorizing the neighbour ennemy countries like Turkey, a country which is still not respecting the human rights, recognizing the armenian genocide and the freedom of Kurds...

So here are the portray of an ultranationalist interlocutor of this forum who utilized dozen of other aliases during the past months...

Koinous: I'm beginning to suspect you own land in Northern Cyprus? Was good to see the Orams fall flat on their face in the European Court of human rights - did your internal EU circle see that one coming?

I bet you that France will never recgonise FYROM because 1. Nicholas Sarkozy knows FYROM history and his grandfather is from real Macedonia. 2. The French signed a defense deal with Greece just recently. 3. Gruevski is the lame duck of Europe at the moment just as Sashkavilli is the lame duck of Georgia. Not surprising that both requested the services of Orion Strategies.

Greek Macedonian Supremacy: you see, Koinous is like one of the many jealous people who want see Greece fail. Alot like how Greece's neigbors all want a piece of Greece.

Koinous: Do you really believe Greece will sell the name Macedonia to the Bulgar-Slavs because from the pressure of other countries because of its temporary state of financial affairs? You have completely misunderstood the resolve of the Greeks, that will never happen even if Greece was bankrupt for a decade. As for the finances China will bail Greece out and Greece will return the favour with the world's biggest merchant shipping fleet flooding the market with made in China goods.

And still not willing to answer to this question: why do you wish so much the falling of Greece while it will never be the case?

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To Koinos Nous:

You have worked inside the Berlaimont EU HQ in Brussels? Really? I hope it's just a lie I put on the count of an arrogant attitude... But let's give it a try. Show me some proves. What was exactly your function there? (Be careful with your answer or else I'm afraid not many will believe you after then)

What you call "naive" is in fact a totally realistic approach of the greek situation inside the EU family. Words like "isolation" and "Greece is in a dangerous situation" because of the financial crisis, are called "speculations" and "exaggerations" from your part. What Greece can risk is just a financial sanction by the EU, but it seems it will even not be the case...

Now if your reasoning is mixed with a little fantasy, - as it seems to be the case -, and you have such silly ideas that Greece will be isolated, then FYROM will enter the EU and with the support of the US and the other EU members will invade Macedonia and Greece will explode in multiple parts and disappear from the map, then I have to tell you are good for producing a sci-fi movie. Because that will NEVER happen.
Greece risks anything and that's why they didn't hesitate to use its veto in Bucharest and say a huge NO to FYROM. Simply like that.
And the best thing: even USA & Turkey signed textually the VETO of Greece. So no, there is nothing to be afraid of...
Also if all the countries recognized FYROM as "Macedonia", that doesn't change a thing. Greece can put its veto whenever it can and it's the right of every EU country member.

Please, I ask you to stay on the subject and to stop the psychanalysis and other judgments with your interlocutors there. Respect please. Thanks you.

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"who else is over the 3% GDP?"

France is at 8% GDP...

Are you sure the frustrations are with Greece or FYROM's lack of progress? Tell me what's changed since the last veto that Greece should give Gruev and his team a nod apart from them having built more statues (which the EU did not look fondly on) and naming highways and stadiums after Hellenic figures? What concessions has FYROM made after 18 years? Greece conceded "Macedonia". Any concessions from FYROM?

If Greece is not going to veto then it will only be because they enter as FYROM, considering France and Germany also use FYROM. Greece can have chapters frozen at a later date for lack of progress which is guaranteed to happen if there is no veto now - a page out of Turkey's book.

What's good for Greece financially is good for the rest of the Balkans including FYROM, as I pointed out before Greece is the biggest investor in that country.

As for financial state of affairs, Greece isn't in the greatest position if not the worst? Neither is Iceland (wanting entry) Ireland, Italy, Spain, Portugal - who else is over the 3% GDP? Alot like to single Greece out though.

Isolation because of the financial crisis? I don't get your point and logic.

Learn there is no isolation inside of the EU family. The members did not decided to the EU to be isolated. For a pseudo Euro commissioner, you are far to understand the functionning of the EU.

On the contrary, countries like FYROM are isolated because they don't belong to the EU family yet...

I think the VETO of Greece would worsen this frustrating feeling for Skopje...

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To Koinos Nous: "I can tell you now from an inside source within the EU Commission (whom I met only yesterday in London) that Member-States are getting thoroughly bored / ennuye / langweiligkeitisch/ nudnowe (in other words, P*ss*d Off) with the Greek position on this whole issue. The Danish Prime Minister spoke for all in saying it was "silly" in the perception of other member-states".

>>>That's definitely WRONG!Not all the member-states are getting bored by the greek position as you said. Don't generalize your own frustration...

I can tell you from close diplomatic sources that France,- one of the main founding nations of EU-, totally backs the greek position about the name and find it a fair case. Nicolas Sarkozy stated it himself in clear words last year, during his speech in the Greek Assembly, that he finds unacceptable the anti-historical rhetoric of FYROM and the absurd territorial claims that are going along... You have also a short memory, because due to those issues, Gruevski was not really well received in Paris when he came to visit Sarkozy...

So please, don't spread false rumors and other invented indications over there from unindicated sources you are the one to invent... Wait for december to see the consequences of the summit and adopt a more neutral attitude. Thank you.

Best Regards,
GMS

Stan - I can tell you now from an inside source within the EU Commission (whom I met only yesterday in London) that Member-States are getting thoroughly bored / ennuye / langweiligkeitisch/ nudnowe (in other words, P*ss*d Off) with the Greek position on this whole issue. The Danish Prime Minister spoke for all in saying it was "silly" in the perception of other member-states.

Endless and successive briefings about the Macedonia name issue from the Hellenic delegation to other Member States' (by the way - its "Member States / Etats membres" and not 'member-countries') delegations merely reiterate the same old position with no change and no hint of compromise. At the same time Greece is falling more and more into an economic disaster zone where it will have to call on other Member-States for assistance within the Euro rules. (If only Greece hadn't joined the Euro, the situation would be far better. But 'philotimo' necessitated that it did. )

One does not have to have the intelligence of Einstein to work out what the response of other Memer-States will be to this call for aid from Greece....("Drop the Dead Donkey" as regards Macedonia might be one of them !)

Answers on a postcard please, to Prime Minister Papandreou.....

Koinous Nous: it's preciesly why others who think it's "silly" even within the EU why Greece should ignore what anyone thinks after the next veto. Greece can once again brief the member countries on the dispute.

While Greece was being nice FYROM was not planning on ever resolving the dispute - a nitwit by the name of Dubya made the chance of resolving the dispute worse by giving Gruevski a handshake (recognition of "ROM") for sending 100 troops to Iraq and building the biggest US embassy in the Balkans in Skopje. Unfortunately they miscalculated that Greece or should I correctly say the NATO states would veto. Greece has stuck to its guns because the Greek position holds more water than the Gruev bucket, in not permitting a theft and too bad what anyone else thinks. If you really want to see the extent of FYROM propaganda see this: http://forums.vmacedonia.com/f11/macedonia-s-provocations-their-american-godfathers-14564/

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K.Nous.
You asked for it saying that you don't care a monkey's cuss, you care and very much my friend.
You are talking that way because Britain has really no antiquity apart some edifices In Wales
and Stonehenge(ancient Druid lunar obsevatory belonging to prehistory(Celtic Gaelic ) no antiquities of the beauty and culture of the ones belonging to the Greek or Roman eras, let alone the mystique of the Egyptians Assyrians of which Montague Street (British Museum) is populated,(I have been there twice) I really prefer the National Gallery and of Tate's fantastic exihibition of Blake's provoking paitings superb i must admit.
Petraki.
Please keep HOLDING TIGHT o your preferred Karakassidou and Skoulariki they are part of the picture of the,as Stan correctly states a new version of the Areaa
history to asto fit in Tito <<macedonization>> of Vardar
Yes you have right of self determination but certainly not on the back of others nor at expense of History.
Stan
In a name stand principles no
BUL***It by interpretation of your style you surely know have a strong point. Gruevski has some better things to do besides calling
for elections he should cope with the $3300-3500 per capita income of Fyrom (World Bank) not mine
and a Sasha say Leave the Aleksander Veliki fantasies and concentrate on the above mentioned Ffigures.

Stan - the difference is that Israel is not a member of the EU, nor is it constrained by EU rules and procedures, especially those on "establishing a common European position" on issues with non-Member States.

The Danish Prime Minister has already got on record to say that he regards the whole Greek "name" position as 'silly' (actually, I think the Danish word was ruder, something like "stuepige" ), and others will join him if Athens doesn't get its act together.

(Yes, we all know that Gruevski is "stuepige" too, but he doesn't have the disciplines or obligations pertaining to the head of an EU Member State. Papandreou, alas, does. )

Peter.. Greece always objected to the name Macedonia to be used by a single country, for the outset - in the 90s after Yugoslavia broke up and back in the Communist days since the 40s when Tito renamed Vardar to the "People's Republic of Macedonia" and rewrote the history books. Claiming the entire Northern Greece along with it and claiming Greeks are occupiers, using the Vergina Star and Thessaloniki's castle on money is where it went silly although some of that was settled in 1995 however it's still going silly because Gruevski is exploiting nationalism to stay in power in that country. Funny that Greece is FYROM's biggest financial investor only because Greeks are buying and employing the Balkans and keeping them over a barrel through banking.

Koinous Nous: What's in a name? In this case the same as a theft - but more than a name is being thieved. Better to take the Israeli approach and not care what anyone thinks if everyone else thinks the whole thing is silly. Anyway, whenever Gruev is feeling the heat he calls an election, get ready for early next year.

Oh Stan - don't be silly. You may call them the Parthenon Marbles, we may call them the Elgin Marbles, but in truth if they sank to the bottom of the sea on their way back to Greece, and became the Gibraltar Marbles or the Cretan Marbles, I really couldn't care a monkey's cuss. The same as many Brits.

What's in a name ? Names are ancient history, today is for living.

Greek Macedonia Supremacy, it is very hard to accept the truth,is it not?Greeces dispute on the Macedonian question is absurd to say the least.We are different people now,different people in ancient times as well.Greece gained part of Macedonia in 1913 with the help of the Big Powers of the day.Geographical Macedonia never belonged to Greece,Bulgaria or Serbia.Our languages are different,all be it we speak the slavic language same as Serbia,Bulgaria,Russia,Poland etc.The language as you preffer to say we are slavo-macedonians is absurd,I know it and you know it very well.It is a Greek propaganda to distance us from our ancient people.It is absurd to claim that the people who came from Turkey in the 1922-26 are the real ancient Macedonians.Are you people in your right frame of mind?This slogan must have come out from the former PM Karamanlis who himself is a Pontious.In closing,let me tell you one thing;the membership of EU is not as importent as keeping our identity,of course you people dont pay attention to ethnicity because you are a mixture of Albanians,Macedonians (Slavo-Macedonians" as you would like to call us,Turks,Vlahs etc. I have one more question to ask if I may;Do you think,I have the same right to identify my self as you do?.Dont you think,we all should have the same Human Rights? If you do agree,than what is your problem not recognising me who am I ?

"Greeks as Christianized Turks"?? Who dared to write such stupidity? I have read lot of things on this online newspaper, but there...

And that Koinos Nous back this idea proved indeed his non-recognized hellenophobic attitude. I reply there since 6-7 months and I have never read a single good word about Greece from his part, under his numberous aliases.

Koinos Nous: interesting you called the Parthenon Marbles the Elgin Marbles in your reply - I never referred to them as that, for you see you do care about them. What's the point if they're Greeks from different regions are culturally distinct? They're still Hellenic just as Cypriots are and Greece is officially the Hellenic Republic. And calling Greeks Christianized Turks is an invention of FYROM propaganda.

Stan - I couldn't care less about the Elgin Marbles. Just a lot of rather boring bits of stone that schoolchildren are taken on tedious visits to the British Museum to see.

And as for the Pontus Greeks, it wasn't me that posted on this very site that they were "Christian Turks" - it was a native Greek who said so !

My own view would be that they are/were relations of Metropolitan Greeks, but not necessarily close relations, more distant ones.

Certainly they were culturally distinct and possibly linguistically so (they had lived in Turkey for centuries, after all, so it's more than explicable !

This may also be true of the "Phanariot" Greeks in Istanbul, some of whom repatriated to Greece in the 1960s, rather later than the Pontians.)

G.M.S - when you did your military service in Lefkosia/Nicosia, which nation's army were you with ? (there are several possible options !)

Koinous Nous, are you one of these Brits that are jealous of Hellenic history not for the return of the Parthenon Marbles? Just wondering - because you come across as anti-Hellenic. Claiming Pontus Greeks have no ethnic relation to the rest of Greece is but one hideous claim. As for you don't believe a veto will happen this time that's what everyone thought about NATO entry. And the current ruling party in Greece were the architects of the sanctions against FYROM in the 90s.

To Koinos Nous: "I have actually been to Cyprus as a UK government official, and walked along the Green Line with a military escort - have you done the same ?"

>>>And to walk along the Green Line made you understand the Cyprus problem? Don't find your argument very logic anyway...

In this case, I did my military service in Nicosia for a year and a half, so yes I must know much more things than you.

Aries - I take your point about <<category error>> (I wonder where we have both heard that before ?), but the fact is that it was only Southern Cyprus ("Republic of Cyprus") that was admitted into the EU in the end.

The interesting position of the Turkish half of the island (TRNC) is commented on elsewhere on the Sofia Echo site, and I shan't presume to trespass on the preserve of those better informed than I. (If only this rule were better observed by more people..)

I'm not being in the least Turcophile in saying that the whole situation in Cyprus is a Buggers' Muddle,and has been since 1974. Neither side is 100% right or 100% wrong, but they simply can't agree (Denktash from the Turkish side was one of the worst, but he has had Greek Cypriot worthy counterparts.)

G.M.S. - I have actually been to Cyprus as a UK government official, and walked along the Green Line with a military escort - have you done the same ? There are clearly no easy solutions...

Periclis - you are clearly out of your depth, so "a period of silence on your part would be welcome" (not my words - those of UK Prime Minister Attlee in 1947.)

I fully agree with Aries. Koinos Nous, recognize that you do not know the cyprus problem very well and your anti-hellenic approach betrayed you...

On the contrary, I have to say we share some common views about Macedonia.

BEFORE 1945 HOW IT WAS YOUR NAME?LOOK THE FREE ENCYCLOPEDIA FOR FYROM.SERBIA IS BACK TOO REALITY

Koinos Nous.
Category error.

Not South Cyprus but he whole of Cyprus as one state was the deal

Maybe I overestimated your Turcophile views.

To Koinos Nous: Sources are saying Greece will indeed avoid to exercize his veto. There will be bilateral talks between Gruevski and Papandreou this coming friday.

The proposal would be that FYROM gives a verbal agreement for "Republic of Northern Macedonia" as basis of the negociations. The use of the new name, the question of identity and the use of domain (mk),etc. would be later discussed during FYROM's accession talks, so both parts, both people, can more prepared for constructive negociations in a more positive climate.

So FYROM will most probably receive a date to start the talks with EU together with Iceland which are expected to start for April.

The 19 years old dispute will be solved by 2010.

Aries - for once you got this badly wrong: sorry !

"Eastern Europe" in this context does not refer to Turkey, but to Slovenia, Poland,etc. The sentence relates to the past, not the future, and refers to Greece's rather shameless "veto" on the EU accession of these countries unless Southern Cyprus was admitted as well.

If you play Bridge (as I suspect you might) you will know that you can only use the Ace of Trumps once within a continuing contract....beyond that, you count up all the points within each hand.

K.Nous/
<<The EU can paper over this by transfering large sums of money to Greece. But will Berlin, Paris – and London, also on the hook – feel obliged to bail out a country that has so flagrantly violated the rules of the club, not least by holding Eastern Europe's EU entry to ransom over Cyprus? That is neither forgotten, nor forgiven. >>

Eastearn Europe (Turkrey) there is a slight problem that is both France and Germany are not very fond of rhe idea of Turkey's accession.
Pending are also Christofias-Tallat negotations than may lead
the Turkish army out of Cyprus.

Aries - many thanks for your authoritative posting about Pontus and its complex history, and of course you are quite right.

What I had in mind was more the way other contributors on this site have commented on the "Pontian" or "Pontus" Christian immigrants from Asia Minor into Northern Greece in the period 1922-1926. Some claim they were merely Christianised Turks, others say they were Oriental Greeks. What seems to be certain is that they dressed differently from the native Greek population, spoke a different dialect of Greek, and could not always write in Greek.

The last point is entirely understandable, as in 1922 Turkey itself had only just adopted the Latin script under Ataturk, and as Ottoman citizens the "Pontus" Greeks would have learned to write in the Arabic script as used in Turkey.

All things considered, they were certainly culturally distinct from the Greeks then living in Greek Macedonia, and (possibly) ethnically distinct too (Turkish) as some claim, though I would incline to doubt this. By religion they were certainly Orthodox Christians - of that there is no doubt.

Obviously they have by now assimilated into Metropolitan Greece, but clearly the legacy of those times lingers on in popular memory (and in the Balkans this is always a long memory).

I hope this is the most objective and impartial assessment that I can post, from distant northern Europe !

This morning's serious article about the Greek economy in the London Daily Telegraph (financial section) throws a new light on the Greek "veto" issue.

Apparently (and I had forgotten this) Greece also threatened to use its veto during the last round of EU accession negotiations, unless Cyprus was also admitted to the EU at the same time. As the Telegraph article says (extract below) "this has neither been forgiven nor forgotten by other EU member states". So Greece's prospects of pulling the same trick again look rather bleak.

Extract:

<<The EU can paper over this by transfering large sums of money to Greece. But will Berlin, Paris – and London, also on the hook – feel obliged to bail out a country that has so flagrantly violated the rules of the club, not least by holding Eastern Europe's EU entry to ransom over Cyprus? That is neither forgotten, nor forgiven. >>

As the rest of the article says, the Greek economy is now in terrible trouble. I don't want to clog up this site with lengthy quotes, but here's the link to the relevant long article in today's Telegraph:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/comment/ambroseevans_pritchard/6630117/Greece-tests-the-limit-of-sovereign-debt-as-it-grinds-towards-slump.html

Eventually Macedonia will gain access into the EU my friends with a prefix attached to the constitutional name whether the Greeks, diaspora dreamers or even our own conservatives like it or not. Politics proceeds regardless of who is driving the wheel in government. All that every leader is able to do is only slow the process but never really stop it. Ilinka Mitreva is starting to ask what Gruevski's stance (LOL) is on the Name issue as to create a unified political front. Mitreva has been in consultation with many of the Macedonian Youth Groups in various Uni. campuses and has finally agreed to voice our concerns. What many of us suspect is that Gruevski doesn't have a stance because he is only a puppet of the diaspora hardliners who never want any change to take place in macedonia even if it means a future without EU membership. As long as the diaspora bankroll every single step of Gruevski's career it seems unlikely to see a change. But the Macedonian Youth have faith, maybe Gruevski throws of his Boxer image which is very appealing to the sport orientated diaspora and instead puts on the mantle of a statesman who stands for all his people, especially the poor in Macedonia and not just for the wealthy diaspora. The diaspora continue to fondle our leader while the real job of politics is left to us, the people. As Delchev said "Macedonia will only be truly free if we the Bulgarians, Greeks, Vlachs, Arvanites, and Turks unify against the common enemy of tyranny." Delchev was aware of the pride all Macedonians held regardless of their background and that has not changed today. The difference today as it was then is the fight against ideologies (e.g Tyranny) which are used to manipulate people. Today it is the name issue, tomorrow it will be religion, poverty, racism, etc. No one can afford to let this current status quo continue, it has to be terminated so all the people, especially the young who cling onto education to have hope for a future. The diaspora can live in their big houses and drive their big fancy cars but while they live it up, Macedonia slips further into widespread poverty only recognisable among our people. Progress takes courage, neglect brings suffering.
Macedonia for the Macedonian Youth Forever.

I agree with Periclis that Slavomacedonia would have been better. After all, speaking about the people, even if this region is multiethnic, I think geographically it is slavic. That would not be a so bad idea to rename Macedonia, "Greek Macedonia". But when we speak about Macedonia, everyone knows that Greek & Macedonia is stricly an euphemism... Everyone knows that Macedonia is Greek. But when it comes to speak about FYROM, "Macedonia" alone is not enough to recognize it. It needs a precised compound.

KOINOS NOUS YOU DONT NOW NOTHING ABOUT GREECE HISTORY.THE PEOPLE FROM PONTOS IT WASS GREECE.LOOK THE FREE ENCYCLOPEDIA OF GREECE.AND BEFORE THEM THE LIVE GREEC MACEDONIAN ON THIS AREA.VISIT THE VERGINA TOO SEE THE REALY MACEDONIAN.

Koinos nous>
A little contributionby KLemenns Loeffer to prove that Pontus and the Turks have have nothing in common as heritage nor civilization.

In ancient times, Pontus was the name of the north-eastern province of Asia Minor, a long and narrow strip of land on the southern coast of the Black Sea (Pontus Euxinus), from which the designation was later transferred to the country. Before this the province was called Cappadocia on the Pontus. The country was shut in by high and wild mountain ranges, but was exceedingly fertile in the lower parts on the coast, in the interior, and on the plateaux. It yielded fruit of all kinds, especially cherries, which Lucullus is said to have brought into Europe from Pontus 72 B. C.; also wine, grain, wood, honey, wax, etc., besides iron, steel, and salt. It was inhabited by a number of petty tribes; among these were the Chalybes or Chaldæans, held in high repute by the Greeks as the first smiths. All belonged to the Persian empire, but in Xenophon's day (about 400 B. C.) were to a considerable degree independent of the Persians. At this date, however, these different countries had no common name. Greeks settled early on the coast, and founded flourishing commercial cities, as Trapezus (Trebizond), Cerasus, Side, later called Polemonium, Cotyora, Amisus, and Apsarus. The founder of the Kingdom of Pontus was Mithradates I, son of Prince Mithradates of Cius on the Propontis, who was murdered 302 B. C. Mithradates I, taking advantage of the confusion caused by the Diadochian Wars, came to Pontus with only six horsemen and was able to assume the title of king 296 B. C.; he died in 266 after a reign of thirty-six years. He was followed by Ariobarzanes (died about 258 B. C.), Mithradates II (to about 210 B. C.), Mithradates III (to about 190 B. C.), Pharnaces (to 170 B. C.), Mithradates IV (to about 150 B. C.), Mithradates V (to 121 B. C.), and then Mithradates VI Eupator, or the Great. The kings, Persian by descent, formed relations early with Greece and from the beginning Hellenistic culture found an entrance into Pontus. The religion was a mixture of Greek worships with the old native cults. From the time of Pharnaces the kings were allied with the Romans. Mithradates VI became involved in three wars with the Romans (88-84, 83-81, 74-64), and finally his kingdom, which he had increased by the conquest of Colchis, the Crimea, Paphlagonia, and Cappadocia, was lost to the Romans (63). The territory west of the River Halys, the coast of Paphlagonia, and the valley of the Amnias became a part of Roman territory and with Bithynia were united into the double Province of Bithynia and Pontus. The other parts were made into principalities and free cities, and it was not until 7 B.C., A D. 18, and A.D. 63 that they were gradually absorbed by Rome. Under Diocletian (284-305) Pontus became a diocese of the empire. The Pontus mentioned in the Old Testament of the Vulgate in Gen., xiv, 1, 9, is a mistaken translation, according to Symmachus, for the district of Ellasar (Larsa in southern Babylonia).

In Apostolic times Christianity found an entrance into Pontus. The First Epistle of Peter is addressed to the Christians in Pontus among others, showing that Christianity had spread to some extent in this province. The author in his exhortations presupposes relations between the faithful and the non-Christian population. For the years 111-13 we have the important testimony of Pliny, then Governor of Bithynia and Pontus (Ep. xcvi). Pliny did not mention the cities or villages, and it is uncertain whether Amastris, or Amasia, or Comana, was the place where Christians were tried by him. As concerns Amisus, Ramsay has proved from Christian sources that it contained Christians about the year 100. Later Amastris was the chief Christian community. Eusebius mentions (IV, xxiii) a letter written by Bishop Dionysius of Corinth (about 170) to Amastris, "and the other churches in Pontus". There was, therefore, at this era a metropolitan with several churches. About 240 Gregory Thaumaturgus was consecrated Bishop of Neo-Cæsarea by Phædimus, Bishop of Amasia. It is said that at that time there were only seventeen Christians in the city and its vicinity, and that at his death, shortly before 270, only the same number of heathens could be found in the city. The able bishop converted the people by opposing Christian to heathen miracles and by changing the old feasts into Christian festivals. In the Decian persecution he made concessions to human weakness, advised the faithful to be less aggressive, and fled himself. Comana received a bishop from Gregory. Christianity obtained a foothold also in the Greek cities of the coast of eastern Pontus before 325. In or about the year 315 a great synod was held at Neo-Cæsarea by Bishop Longinus. At the Council of Nicæa there were present among others the Bishops of Amastris, Pompejopolis, Jonopolis, Amasia, Comana, Zela, Trebizond, and Pityus. Towards the end of the fourth century Neo-Cæsarea became itself a Church-province, having as suffragans Trebizond, Cerasus, Polemonium, Comana, Rhizæum, and Pityus.

MEYER, Gesch. d. Konigreiches Pontos (Leipzig, 1879); KLEFFNER, D. Briefwechsel zwischen Plinius u. Trajan (Paderborn, 1907); PAPAMICHALOPULOS, Periegesis eis ton Ponton (Athens, 1903); LE QUIEN, Oriens christianus, I (Paris, 1740), 499-520; RAMSAY, The Church in the Roman Empire (London, 1893), 211, 235; HARNACK, Die Mission u. Ausbreitung d. Christentums in den ersten drei Jahrhunderten, II (2nd ed., Leipzig, 1906), 73, 157-8, 172-7.
KLEMENS LÖFFLER.

Koinos Nous.
If you are talking about the islamized Pontic people
the dervishists then ok on any further instances about the general population of Pontus
the following link will help you
understand the real history of
Pontus and the Trebizond Empire,
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/pontus

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slavomacedonia is better.

"Northern Republic of Macedonia" is the speculated name according to the last sources. I would have preferred "Republic of Northern Macedonia" since the difference between both names is quite sensible...

Sasha - I'm afraid that what you describe is All Too True. The malignant diasporas (diasporai ?) on both side have had too much opportunity to spend their copious dollars in promoting their respective incompatibe agendas.

What it really needs is a "coup d'etat" against Gruevski (or a "putsch" as the Russians call it), but - given that Gruevski has his hands on all the "levers of power", this is unlikely to happen.

Stan - Greece's concern about "identity theft" is best dealt with as a WIPO (World Intellectual Property Organisation) matter, as Greece did very successfully with the Star Of Vergina flag back in 1995. It is not really a UN matter or an EU one, and the Danish Prime Minister has rightly said that in a main EU negotiating forum, it is "ridiculous". As it is.

But in WIPO, Greece would very probably win its case. A shame that - having pursued this avenue so successfully in 1995 - they then seem to have forgotten about it ! For which I blame the Incompetent Bakoyannis...

FYROM has squandered 18 years of negotiations, not 18 weeks or months. Greece was given alot of time and conceded "Macedonian" in some form. FYROM continues to go down that path of nationalism and wasting time. Unfortunately things have been reduced to vetos to make FYROM wake up and still doesn't. Let's not forget that Greece is the bigger financial investor in FYROM so it's not like they want to destroy that country. Greece will not stand for identity theft - over many centuries alot of things have been stolen from Greece, look at the British museum.

Sasha stop the bull , and admit your a Greek!!

Yes Koinos Nous, thats about all of it. Recently a Think Tank by the name of DEMOS was formed here in Macedonia and they have provided nearly every university in the country with a platform for the Macedonian Youth to voice their views on a range of subjects e.g. 41% unemployment, housing problems, increased poverty, racism, domestic violence, name issue, etc. As you can see the name issue is only one of dozens of pressing problems Macedonia has (like most other nations). Not surprising the government has tried its hardest to close this group down but with little success as the Macedonian Youth (mainly students) have created many sub-branches which meet at various campus cafes, music venues, etc. We understand that the Greek diaspora (our Greek student friends keep us updated)are equally diligent in their pursuit (financially etc.)of no compromise but for us it is the problem that there is a large section of our Macedonian community who do want compromise but have thus far been intimidated in every sense of the word. Every media, radio, tv, etc., that has disclosed support for compromise has been met with aggressive police crack downs plus threats of jail or torture. The Macedonian Youth have been created out of an atmosphere of intimidation and the need to practice their democratic right of free speech. The clock is ticking and the EU will want answers. If you see the archetypal right wing, Al. Veliki fabricator Todor Petrov organising demonstrations among the diaspora you can see what we mean. Thankfully his turnout was only a few hundred but that is a few hundred Gruevski supporters who want everything their own way. Time is on the side of the Macedonian Youth. Long live the Macedonian Youth forever.

I do not believe that a solution in the dispute between Greece and FYROM is possible until December 7 unless a miracle happens.The time that has been left is to short and the differences to be solved a lot despite the fact that the problem is known as the ''name issue''.So,i would not share the optimism expressed by the Swedish Presidency of the EU.I thik this is rather wishful thinking.

This site needs to display ISPs. There are many 'pretend Macedonians' on here that are actually Greek. They do the same thing on YouTube. The reality there is there is almost no support for a name change in Macedonia and there is even a large number against joining the EU in the first place.

Not everybody here is who they pretend to be!

Macedonia,the Republic and Greece are fighting over non-existing issue.
Just waste of time and energy.
The problem is Greece that can let them in EU as FYROM but they what to use the veto as a blackmail tool in order to get consecesion on some issues.
Power and justice do not go together.

Yes to Lexi and Sasha's views
The problem remains and pertains to <<which of the mice will put the ringing bell on th cat's neck>>.

Yes to Lexi and Sasha's views
The problem remains and pertains to <<which of the mice will put the ringing bell on th cat's neck>>.

Lexi - entirely agreed !

(must be the shortest posting so far on this vexed issue !)

Both countries need to move forwards, into an EU future, not backward into a Nationalist abyss. Both countries made the mistake of playing hardball, with really a minor diplomatic issue, back in 1991. The region can have two, three, or even four Macedonias - it isn't unheard of. The Greek side should be willing to compromise on the name, with a varient to distinguish it from Greek Macedonia, and the Macedonian gov't should stop being stupid and abandon the Alexander Veliki propoganda. If the Macedonians would stop provoking their neighbours (I'm Bulgarian) and start incorporating themselves into the Balkans (accept that their lands are ancient Greek territories and that they share Greek history with Greece, and that they are Bulgars with a rich Bulgarian heritage) as good neighbours. We live in the present, moving towards the future - the past is gone.

To M.O.G. coming from a mixed race I would think you would be more sympathetic to the Macedonia cause, but from your writing I guess it's just ignorance!!

(sorry - the previous "1" was me, caught by the Curse of the Default Address !)

Sasha - what you say is genuinely very interesting to all of us. If I understand correctly:

(a) the local general community in Macedonia, especially the young and those involved in Macedonia's slavic heritage, favour a compromise of the name issue along "Northern Macedonia" lines.
Equally, they do NOT favour the current "Aleksander Veliki" obsession of their Government.

(b) right-wing elements, plus the considerable political and financial power of Macedonia's "diaspora", support a tough no-compromise stance against the Greeks, and are in favour of the "Aleksander Veliki" obsession and the doctrine that goes with it that somehow today's Macedonians are the direct descendants of ancient Macedonians.

(c) the diaspora are bankrolling Gruevski and encouraging him to take a very hard-line stance along the lines of (b) just above.

Comment: Hmmm, doesn't sound too good, given that "compromise" doesn't often enter into the Greek vocabulary either, especially under Papandreou. Also, Greece has its own diaspora, who are bankrolling and lobbying in precisely the opposite direction (especially from Australia and USA).

From what you say (and I entirely accept that you have done your best to give an objective analysis, and you have succeeded), it isn't easy to see a forward and positive way out of this mess, unless there is some sort of change of government in Skopje.
We've had a change of government in Athens, and it hasn't helped a great deal (except we got rid of Bakoyannis the Hopeless !)

Constructive comments welcomed, please (and I don't mean Periclis with yet another capital-letter diatribe about "monceydonians" !)

Three points:

(a) Aries - true, but sea freight can never provide the volume that road or rail freight can (as Britain discovered with the recent fire in the Channel Tunnel). Also, Igoumenitsa is difficult for truck access by virtue of the mountainous access roads. Patras is much better in that respect.

Except that, once the southern Italian Mafia-dominated trade unions realise that Brindisi has become Greece's trade lifeline, expect sudden strikes, disruptions, and a good deal of "chantage" ('blackmail' to non-French or Italian speakers) in order to rake off much higher fees and charges. 'Twas ever thus....sempre Cosa Nostra in Italia meridionale !'

(b) 'Macdonia Olways Greece' - I just don't know what you mean by "propagant", unless you are referring to a function in rather advanced Physics. If so, you might find this link helpful:

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/propagant

You can't mean "propaganda", as the Greek word for this is....er..."propaganda". (Spot the resemblance !)

I'll respond to Sasha separately, as what he says offers a genuine and rare insight into the internal politics of fYRoM, and deserves respect and study by all of us, of whichever persuasion.

The Macedonian Youth need forward looking leaders not ultra-nationalists like our current government. To succeed in this stalemate we will need a lot of foresight for compromise. Those who oppose a North pre-fix tend to be right wing orientated people with heavy support from our diaspora. Those in favour are mostly the Youth of Macedonia and left wing supporters. It has come down to this; the left (proud Slavs) want compromise the right (antiquisation - Al. Veliki and non-Slav believers) are opposed. The diaspora are (with a very few exceptions) mainly in the second category hence Gruevski's continuing financial wealth. The Eu is on our doorstep it is time to act.

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This comment has been removed by the moderator because it contained off-topic content

This comment has been removed by the moderator because it contained off-topic content

I don't think the Greeks would have cared at all if it weren't for our childish nationalist politicians making claims on Greece and Bulgaria from the start and even before of independence.

Our nationalism sparked Greek nationalism and it feed a vicious circle.

I am a Macedonian and don't care what the Greeks think of that, but let's face it, trying to claim Alexander and supposed Macedonians in Greece was an idiotic and backward thinking stance that was bound to provoke worries, both real and imagined in Greece.

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The should be called Skopidonia ! Otherwise Bulgaria will swallow them ...

Koinos Nous.
About the Foot and Mouth disease
there still remains apart from the
75 highway The Patras-Ancona-Brindisi way and the Igoumenista-Brindisi for greek exports
so you can wish anything for the Varda valley (republic) It won't
affect greece.

I am afraid, Peggy, that Sarajevo and Srebrenice WERE "rocket science", although of a less advanced sort, and it Was The Serbs Wot Dun It.

However, blood is thicker than water (especially ex-Jugoslav blood), and as Macedonia has never done anything to harm Serbia - except to recognise Kosovo - it is likely that Serbia will ultimately support Macedonia rather than Greece.

What we really want is an outbreak of an animal disease such as foot-and-mouth ("la fievre aphteuse", as it doesn't translate otherwise) in the Vardar valley. This carries both the E 75 trunk highway and also the one railway line cannecting Greece with the north of Europe.

Such an outbreak would paralyse Greek trade with the north of Europe, and would not harm Macedonia greatly.

Oh dear, what have I just said ?
(Slap on wrist !!!)

Gruevski must harry to secure the name Nova makenonija. otherwise...

Serbs consider Kopsovo the heart of Serbia.
Serbs have been given a bad name,
from the organized media.

They say the did genocide.
Ok, they did, but does anybody mention the Albanian to Serb genocide????
No..

Stop falling victims of the media that clouds and directs your thoughts and morals...

See the truth as it is, and not from how it has been presented to you in the plate.

When it comes to Macedonians Serbs will always side with them. Greeks are not related to Serbs in any way shape or form so its Macedonians 1, then Greeks - no hard feelings Hellas ah?

Tadic is an idiot.
FYROM recognised Kosovo and Athens did not. FYROM stabbed Serbs in the back while Greece supports Serbs.

Why is this idiot not out already? Hopefully he will be gone after the next election.
Greeks support Serbs and Serbs should support Greeks. It is not rocket science.

This comment has been removed by the moderator because it contained foul, abusive or discriminating language

Since when was Serbian support for anything "good news"....

Srebrenica, Vukovar, war with NATO, Karazdzic trial at the Hague, Kosovo ......GOOD NEWS ????
(or, to use Greek punctuation, ;;;;;)

With friends like Serbia, who needs enemies ?

And Serbia backs Greece for the name dispute. Good news!!