One last thing about Finland and BG:
Given that the gypsy element comprises .02% in Finland and 5.2% in BG, it's either that they are much more violent in Finland, or that the Finns are more violent than the average Bulgarian, because we know that large % of all crime is committed by gipsies in BG.
Just trying to get under the numbers in the stats.

As far as crime:
As you can see in this map, BG is basically the same color as Finland. In 2009 we had 3.8 murders for 100,000 people and Finland had 2.17 - less than one difference.
Compared with some of the "corrupt" countries like Greece (.98) and Italy (1.6), Finland isn't as safe as our Finnish friend here seems to think.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Homicide-world2.png

So paying people off with social programs, to keep them away from crime, may work in some places, in other sheer non-violent culture will ensure of the same.
BG has dropped from 4.7 in 2000, which probably means that it will level off at the Italy - Greece levels eventually, as the economic situation improves somewhat.

Excuse me, the "looser the joints" of course.

Beyond that - I think one has to take any comparison between separate locations with care, due to all the other factors involved.
Sure Latvia is no Island, but in the same time BG is no Finland and what works in one place shouldn't be necessarily attempted blindly in another.
Lets not underestimate geography. Proximity to the ground zero of European prosperity - Germany - makes a big difference when it comes to reform and investment.
As you know wealth radiates from Germany: Clockwise: Ireland's southeast, England's south, Norway's southwest, Sweden's south, Finland's south, Poland's Czech, Slovak's Hungary's west, ex-Yugoslavia's northwest, Italy's north, and so on.

To make things worse, we in BG had to deal with 10 year of stupid war in Yugoslavia - our geographical connection with the west (Germany) - and a terrible Romanian obstinacy in refusing to cooperate in infrastructure projects (only EU membership is starting to change their attitude) - so we were virtually cut off from the heart of Europe, firmly in the hands of local corrupt forces, in those crucial years in the 90s.

Any model offered should take the complexity into account.

Sorry, that was me below.

Koinos,
Given what happened in Island, I would be less prone to declare any of the Nordic counties a success, out of fear of being premature.
(all three of them I believe have higher crime/murder rates than BG - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate)

Small economies driven by heavy state involvement, albeit with better qualified workforce, can fall victim to the smallest degree of mismanagement. There is a case to be made for the organized chaos that we occasionally lament about BG.
The loser the joints, the stronger the building. Sure, it shakes and wobbles in the wind, but it could prove much safer in the next major earthquake, like the financial crises of last year.

Valeri & Hmmm - if we're talking about Communism in the Nordics, we had better look at what happened in Lithuania, Latvia and Estonia.

In none of these three countries was the Communist Experience a happy one. Equally, all three got their act together rather well following their freedom in 1991, and have since joined the European Union.

Which is not to say that their path to the EU was easy (I was present in all three countries at various times working with the respective British Embassy, and at times it got tragi/comic.)

Not an easy path, but ultimately a successful one...

"I still don't think your kind of communism would ever take place in Nordics."

What is my kind of communism?

BG didn't chose the Soviet kind, any more than it will chose the Finnish. The USSR imposed their brand on us after they drove in chasing the Germans, so that wasn't our choice.

"You can feel safe, your kids go to totally free school with free lunch, after this university is free, health care works, streets are tidy, environment tidy..."

Well good for you.
I prefer BG and don't care about equality much. Been there done that.
What is Finland btw? Who cares about Finland? I've never been there and I've been everywhere. You live your life we'll live ours. I don't get on your sites to teach you how to be like us. Be modest.

I still don't think your kind of communism would ever take place in Nordics. For example Finland had two great chances to step into it. First time in 1917 which lead to one of the bloodies civil wars. Second time after world war II after loosing to Soviet Union. In both times they made another decision.
Maybe Nordic countries are more equal nowadays but it was not always like this. You see for example this civil war. Poor people started to want rights and rich killed them like little porks. Equality has comen with years. You don't have to go more than 40 years ago and there was Finns who were suffering hunger. This generation after war built Finland what it is now.
And what comes to corruption it doesn't exist so much anymore, but that happens too. It's not some inner built thing inside north people. I'm quite sure welfare reduces corruption. In hard times, for example during war people with money had more than those who didn't. There is political corruption scandals still existing in north.
High taxes bring nice things too, both for poor and rich. You can feel safe, your kids go to totally free school with free lunch, after this university is free, health care works, streets are tidy, environment tidy... It's matter of choices. In general countries with higher taxes are those countries in Europe which are "succesful". This doesn't mean only Nordics, also for example Switzerland and Germany, France too.

"Normal people are the group that really counts. They are majority in all countries except maybe Monaco."

Well that's exactly what I am talking about - the mind set that qualifies more successful individuals as somehow abnormal.

The majority is all we heard of, growing up back in Socialism. In fact the term "Bolshevik" comes from the Russian "bolshinstvo" meaning majority.

Sweden and Finland abolished something they called "wealth tax" back in 2006, no doubt facing some global realities. Actually I am pretty sure that their Viking socialism will gradually disappear, considering that it's benefits have made it a lure for too many Muslims and Africans.

As the heads on the welfare line get darker and darker, the average Swede will start reconsidering the virtues of the Welfare State - basic racism will ensure of that, if nothing else...
Frankly it's the lack of corruption that creates the business climate in Scandinavia, certainly not the government policies. That is not going to happen in BG. As you see, Greece has been a EU member for almost what - 28 years and their corruption level isn't that much different than ours. My point - it's the culture. The only way BG will become richer is by what it is already doing - 10% corporate/income tax in combination with legal reform, to moderate corruption and ensure legal recourse for business.

Finland:

In the first row you can see the tax percent. In the middle you cand see the amount of tax payers in that tax group and in the last there is same number in percent of all tax payers.

2009
Basic Quantities % of payers
rate

0-10 556301 18,1
11-20 1413248 46,1
21-25 598213 19,5
26-30 333583 10,9
31-40 156708 5,1
41-50 9782 0,3
51- 81 0,0

So in Finland 46 % of tax payers have tax percent of 11-20 and 19,5 % of them have tax percent of 21-25. 81 persons in whole country have tax percent of more than 51. You can count that in general almost 95 % of Finns pay less than 30 % of taxes.

Normal people are the group that really counts. They are majority in all countries except maybe Monaco. They just made an European survey and like I said before Finland and Sweden were medium there, Norway even downer.

I was calculating with their calculator that for example with 150 000 per year salary total tax percent in Finland is 40 %.

80-90 % is quite far.

Cont.
Considering that there is a luxury tax on toilet paper, I wouldn't be surprised if Danes pay upwards of 90% of their income to the government - that in my book makes them virtual slaves, if the definition of slavery is labor without compensation.

In fact every time I visit Copenhagen, there's that nagging nostalgic feeling in me, for my childhood, growing up in the center of Sofia, with no cars on the streets and very few shops around.
Just a clean empty city with lots of people walking around.
Good or bad, it's closer to what we had, than you may think.

That said: Socialism (and btw we never referred to our selves as "communist" back in the day - it was always "socialist") in Scandinavia is one by popular consent.
Big difference. There is no way in hell that one can have that in the Balkans (or Russia), because we lack the communal tradition of the Vikings, born of weather, geography and history. Bulgarians are too individualistic and any socialism is an opportunity for corruption, which is what happened in deed.
The point is that one has to take culture into account, and culture steams from many factors - from collective historic experiences to the type of climate or ethnic temperament..

If you discount all that, you are dealing in imaginary currency...

Why are you posting as if the rest of us have no access to the internet?

Denmark: - up to 68% income tax (including social security).

"Personal income tax is collected at state, county and local levels. A tax ceiling ensures that combined income taxes do not exceed 59% of income. Income tax rates are progressive: 39% on income up to €22,118; 45% on income between €22,118 and €36,025; and 60% on income above €36,025. Several kinds of deductions or reductions can be applied to taxable income. There is also a voluntary church tax with an average rate of 0.8%. The social security contribution from employee earnings is 9%, 8% for unemployment insurance and 1% for special pension scheme savings. The voluntary church tax and social security contributions do not count toward the 59% tax ceiling. Tax is withheld at the source. Foreign researchers and key employers may qualify for a gross tax of 25% on their salary instead of paying regular income tax. They are still liable for 9% social security contributions."

Sweden - average 50%+:

"After the basic deduction you pay the following taxes on taxable earned income: municipal tax in your municipality of residence (approx. 30-33 per cent), church tax and burial charges (approx. 1-2 per cent), state progressive income tax. State income tax is 20 per cent of that part of your taxable earned income that exceeds SEK 367 600 (2008:SEK 328 800). If your taxable earned income exceeds SEK 526 200 (2008:SEK 495 000), you have to pay state income tax of a further 5 per cent on that part that exceeds SEK 526 200 (2008:SEK 495 000)."



That's not including all the other taxes like the 250% tax on a $20,000 car - oh forgot that "normal workers" need no cars...

70-80% for taxes??? For example in Sweden and Finland normal workers pay medium taxes compared to other EU. Average tax is 20-25%. And I bet nobody even there pays 80 . And Nordic socialism is still far far from communism which was practised in east Europe. The last one was one sort of dictatorship and somehow east seem to slide to that direction again...

Dan you shouldn't comment on something you " gloss over".
I said " within the geographical distance. 2 hour flight from Seattle isn't going to take you any place different.
Bulgaria is improving, but my point of posting isn't to impress you as much as to insult back.
None of this Brits dumping on us have anything to teach us except hate and tribalism - you saw what happened when one of theirs commuted a crime in BG! The whole joint mobilized to get him off.
Great example to follow....
I've lived in the west and I know it to well to be impressed by what we can learn so they can take their lessons and shove them you know where...
Hard to grasp?

'This is why I am not as interested in exploring the States - the difference between Seattle and Phoenix or LA and Miami just isn't the same.'

Of course the difference is not the same - it's the same country!

You were arguing that the beauty of Europe is that the difference in culture between different countries' cultures etc is what makes visiting these places so good - I agree. Why would you then use two cities in the same country to defend your argument - particularly the US?

Surely, a cogent argument would be, 'I would not visit countries in North America because the countries found in that continent are too similar in culture' - i disagree. Walking the entirely french speaking roads of Quebec in Canada is vastly different to the entirely spanish speaking roads of some parts of San Diego, which is again entirely different to walking through the Everglades in Florida.

I often read your posts and have come to gloss over them because they are filled with uninsightful critique and nonsensical wafflings. If you have something to say, please make sure that it is founded on a reasonable argument.

Bulgaria is a wonderful country with its own issues that it needs to sort out. Let's not hide behind excuses but instead let's clean up the country to make it an even better place. The way to do this is by learning form others who have been in a similar situation - as Expat rightly point out. Other nations despite the difference in culture have had to set up structures and create a culture that is conducive to developing a corruption free society. Let's swallow our pride and start asking questions - for the sake of Bulgaria.

"In Nordic culture communism never even took any kind of place so that is quite a stupid comparement."



I disagree. Communism is inherent in the Viking culture and it's probably the only place where it is possible.

At the core of the ideology is the material equality of the individuals, government responsibility for health and retirement and general welfare, in exchange for the individual's extreme degree of expressed responsibility towards the state and the society - all those things can be described as "tradition" in Scandinavia.

The actual form attempted in Russia (and by virtue of us losing the war, in BG as well) was more malignant by far, than the one practiced in Scandinavia today, but the essence is not that far off.

Paying 70-80% in taxes really means that 10 months out of the year you are working for the government with no pay, (in exchanges for services) no matter how you chose to look at it, .

"When it comes to Communism: I believe that we in BG wore down the ideology with our inherent corrupt ways. We killed it - thank God - and it could never take serious hold on us, as it could in a Nordic culture."

In Nordic culture communism never even took any kind of place so that is quite a stupid comparement.

"why is it soo difficult for BG to lean from others?
e.g. Honk Hong after the 2WW hat massive problems with corruption."

I don't know why would anyone in their right mind compare Hong Kong with BG since they are related in virtually nothing - historically, culturally, racially - obviously weak analytical predisposition.

Koinos,

I agree that the Turkish heritage (the Long Night) has much to do with what we all have to work with right now. Regardless, this is what we have have and who we are. This sort of pragmatic view is more useful instead of bringing Communism (no fan of it myself), and every pet hate many in the West have, into the picture, when discussing BG.

Anyone who thinks that BG will become Scandinavian type of society is smoking something, I'd like to try;) I say that as one who loves BG, but sometimes loving anything means also accepting its imperfections, and as you may have noted I also included some of the other traits that come with corruption, which aren't all that unpleasant - I believe that are part of the tapestry. I believe that corruption will decrease with time, but it's important to be realistic.

The cafe culture, the laid back outlook - that comes with negatives too, but it's a package deal.

When it comes to Communism: I believe that we in BG wore down the ideology with our inherent corrupt ways. We killed it - thank God - and it could never take serious hold on us, as it could in a Nordic culture.

But this is why I love Europe.

The differences from Stockholm to Athens is so stunning in every respect that it makes for an incredibly rich cultural buffet within short geographical distance. This is why I am not as interested in exploring the States - the difference between Seattle and Phoenix or LA and Miami just isn't the same.

I think we Europeans should learn to appreciate this, instead of expecting every one to conform to a random ideal.

Valeri - Greece had a bad reputation for corruption within the EU ever since it joined in 1982. Even the Italians (no strangers to corruption themselves) said that it was in a "different league" from the other EU 9 member-states at the time.

The fact that it still, even now, languishes in the Balkan "pits" of heavy corruption, whereas newer EU member states such as Finland, the Baltic States, and even Poland, score significantly higher, must say quite a lot.

Not just sun, sea, and sand, but ancient Turkish-inspired habits, I suspect. Northern Europe does not have the same Turkish traditions.

So much for Greece's constant claim to be the origin of all the values of the Ancient Greek legacy....

@ Valeri

do I understand correctly that you are saying - this is part of the culture - we have to accept it?

if so, then I think BG will see the same fait and destiny als south Italy. Stalled in development, no progress, no properity, no wealth for majority of people and no perspective for the future....

why is it soo difficult for BG to lean from others?
e.g. Honk Hong after the 2WW hat massive problems with corruption. they have made a very successful strategy and addressed the issue maily by very massive proactive information initative. contantly and repeatinly. It worked ! some years later HK is one of the most sober places in the world...

the new term for this is BENCHMARKING, but what it still requires is the willingness to learn....

BTW I meant the cultural peculiarity of the neighborhood, not Greece in particular.

Interesting...

One has to wonder about all the analyses offered here like :
"These results demonstrate that countries which are perceived as the most corrupt are also those plagued by long-standing conflicts.." does little to explain Greece's inglorious company...

No war, no transition, no Communists holding institutions at ransom. What gives? Could it be that corruption is a local cultural peculiarity that's part of the fabric?
An inseparable shade of the local cultural tapestry, as much as the fun music, relaxed lifestyle, and overt sexuality in the air?

Stats don't lie