To macedonian alway greece.You are acting like a dunky.You can take it to the water but cannot make it drink.Does this sound like yourself?For the last time I will explain to you the differance between Slav and Macedonian.Please pay attention;Macedonians are Macedonians who happened to speak the slavic language.The differance once again is one is IDENTITY,the other is a LANGUAGE.What a stupidity on your part for not being able to tell the differance.Here once more are the slavic speaking people in Europe;Macedonians,Serbians,Bulgarians,Russians,Ukrainians,Poles,Bielorussians,Slovakians.None of these countries are pre-fixed with SLAVO.Has this sink into your head yet?If it did not,you have [...]

Read the full comment to be an imbesol at best.

kiro gligorof (pm on fyrom 1990)says on greece press:we are slavs we come on this area latter,we dont have nothing close with alexandros,we are not makedonian.you born with propaganda and you die with propaganda.be prout like slavs!!!!!!!!thing open or stay with tito mythos.you like too be frient and too see the future of this area????or you like too be enemy for ever????the chose is yours.butt you must now we the greece makedonian we never left you steal or history.be prout for your history like slavs!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

too 1,you speak slavic dialect and you say this is makedonian!!!!!you are slavs and you say you are makedonian!!!!!makedonian speak greece,have greece name,the old makedonian coin have greece word,the alexandros is prout because is hellenas(achileas)you liket or not.visit the vergina too see the realy makedonian!!!!!you are slavs and you now this better then me!!!!!!!!!!!!be prout like slavs!!!!!

This comment has been removed by the moderator because it contained foul, abusive or discriminating language

To Macedonian always greece.My dear fellow,you cant tell the differance between Ottoman and Turkey.To give few historical facts so you can masticate it through your entire life;It is well known that a "Greek State" never existed before 1829. The ancient City States were conquered by Philip 2nd of Macedonia in 338 BC and were never united into a single nation until the creation of the Greek Kingdom in 1832.Was it not the Macedonians who conquered the ancient City States?How then can ancient Macedonians be Greek?""The Great Powers created the modern Greek Kingdom for the first time in 1832 as an [...]

Read the full comment attempt to partition the Ottoman Empire and prevent the formation of a single Slavic State in the Balkans.The Grea Powers,Britain and France,created modern Greece purely for the purpose of blocking Russian access to the Mediterranean Sea.As for the purity of the modern Greek nation there is ample evidance,both historical and scientific,that contradicts modern Greek claims.There is no modern pure Greek race that directly descended from the ancient City States.Todays modern Greeks,like other nations in the Balkans,are made up of Slavs,Macedonians,Turks,Albanians,Roma,Vlahs,etc.A modern Greek person is only Greek by education or by assimilation and has no roots beyond 1832 when the Greek State and the Greek Nationwere created for the first time.The modern Greek not only has a mythical past but sadly has abandoned and forsaken his or her own real roots and heritage."Before 1912 there were no Greeks living in Macedonia.But in later years the Greek State produced statistics that showed that the vast majority of the Macedonian population was Greek.How was that possible?In reality it was not. The Greek State shamelessly assimilated the Macedonian population by forcibly changing the peoples Macedonian names and toponyms into Greek ones."Content taken from "Macedonia" by Risto Stevov. When in 1878 Macedonia was given back to the Ottomans by the Big Poweres,its status became"undetermined" with implications that Macedonian territories were now up for grabs.There were no Greeks,Serbians or Bulgarians living in Macedonia prior to the introduction of the foreign Churches there because these nations never existed before.Greece,Serbia and Bulgaria are 19th century artificially created nation -states,created from the same ethnic Christian composition but each nation was artificially designed to support the aims of the Great Powers which created it.Using the same principales of artificiality with which they themselves were created,Greece,Serbia and Bulgaria through their respective churches began to spread propaganda in an attempt to convince the Macedonian population that only Greeks,Serbians and Bulgarians existed in Macedonia. Their aims were designed not only to convince Macedonians but also to convince the outside world and pave the way for Macedonias occupation.The Greek aim of the population exchange was to settle the Christian Turks in the Macedonian land to make it easier for the Greek state to Hellenize the Macedonian population.The 1925 agreemet of openning Macedonian schools for the Macedonian children was never implemented.The proof of that is the printing of the Abcedar in Macedonian that Greece negated to implement.

http:www.makedonijaese.com this is from fyrom!the coin have greece word or slavic???

THE OLD MACEDONIAN COIN, THE HAVE GREECE SYMBOL FOR SURE,GO AND SEE ON VERGINA,50 K.M FROM THESALONIKH.WEN IT WASS THE MACEDONIAN ON THIS AREA IS NOT THE TURCEY OR OTTOMAN ON THIS AREA BY SIRIUS HISTORIC,AND NOT BY FYROM BOOKS!!!!!!!OTTOMAN EMPIRE IT WASS LATER FOR SURE.TOO VALERI, BRAVO YOU REALY NOW HISTORY.

Valeri -

Vladimir Voronin (former President of Moldova) looks like much more of a typical Slav than Gruevski.

Also he'd be a very much better Prime Minister of the Republic of Macedonia.....as I have posted elsewhere on this site (no need to repeat here).

Justian:

"Macedonia means home to me,what it means to you greek SKATA..... only occupied territory"

LOL!!!;)))

That's the spirit! Keep that up and before you know it, you'll stop starving, get in the EU and in much better relations with your neighbors! ... Not.

You were Bulgars, like me, living in the geographical region called "Macedonia" until Yugoslavia, that is, when, as some one correctly pointed out, you were given a new identity by Tito. He did that in order to separate you from [...]

Read the full comment BG, he even changed your names. Macedonia, the old nation's land, with which you have about as much in common as the Turks with Byzantium, spans in 3 countries.

The same with the Thracian lands. Most of it is in BG and part of it is in Greece and actually Turkey. It's a region, not a nation.

Just look at Gruevski. He doesn't even have much Slavic blood in him - pure Anatolian Turk!
Slaves are attractive and lighter people - most of my BG friends are much more Slavic looking than Gruevsky.

You people in the FYROM are becoming an embarrassment, and quite frankly, I am glad that you don't identify yourselves as Bulgarians any more - what a terrible PR that would've been for BG...

Periclis -

The old Macedonia coin, he have Sultan on one side and YUNANISTAN on the other side. I fink YUNANISTAN is Turkish for Grease.

Sirius Dog-Star, he garantee this. And Vergina Lady is Xristian Lady of ALL Sorroes.

Where you get Eglish kyboard ;;;; I want buy wun two.

the old macedonian coin have greec symbol and not slavic, like you. stop lies and propaganda,tito give you this name on 1945 he dreaming too make union all this area.the macedonian and slavs is total difrent by sirius historic.visit the vergina too see the realy macedonian.

Dr. Oz you can see the true identity of Valeri and Aries ultra national fascist . and to you Pericles greece... Macedonia means home to me,what it means to you greek SKATA..... only occupied territory ...

AND I STILL WAITING FROM FYROMANIAN,WHAT MEANS MACEDONIA??

Dear dr Oz.
I am still waiting for your history sources.

Aries and Valeri, your racist remarks will be noted and the moderator should take fast action to remove them from the site. I find it very offensive, specially coming from two so-called intellectuals!!!

Valeri
You have a good sense of Humor.
i like it.

Doesn't this guy look Turkish?
In fact I think he looks more Arabic than Turkish. Look at that hanker of a nose and a slightly semitic smile.
Man, Alexander is turning in his grave;)

Dr Oz.
<< tous pour rien peu d'esprite ont besoin de preuve!>>
is better said as
Tout pour rien, Peux d'esprits ont
besoin de preuves!!
thanks for learning my friend
By the way i am still waiting for
your sources of History

dear koinos nous,agess you like too attack,but tell me what is not realy from my latter?

to Macedonia Olways Greece -

when you refer to a:

<<a new coppy history for idiot? >>,

are you planning to write one ?

You would be uniquely well placed to do so.

dear peter the problem is not the politic on greece or bulgaria you are the problem,you are one nation stealer,you born with propaganda and you live like this.you say the macedonian it wass before the greece,butt it wass nasionality greece,by historic, olso the byzantium empire it wass before greece,butt it wass greece,if the macedonia it wass before the greece ,for you means it wass the slavs like you?the ottoman empire is before turkey,that for you means the today turkey is not the yesterday ottoman?what are you say,a new coppy history for idiot?

Business is business and money is money, I never said we were friends

Dr.Oz,I fully agree with your comments.This is the 21st century, is it not? Why are the Bulgarians and Greeks going back to their mythological history?We all know,Macedonians do exist,I am Macedonian! who can deny me my rights?Lets talk the truth,Macedonia exists centuries before Bulgaria and Greece.Remember professor Skoulariki said"Macedonia existed long before Greece did"Are you people trying to change the facts?The problem with the Bulgarians and Greeks is politics.Both countries have created such a climet with their own people,now they cannot return to the truth for fear of loosing their jobs.Gruevski is right by saying "history should be left for [...]

Read the full comment the historians".Unfortunatly,both Greece and Bulgaria dont want the historians to setle the truth of the Balkan history.Have you quested why they dont want to be left to the historians as Gruevski suggested?I will leave this question open.

Dr Oz - ce que vous dites est bien vrai. Mais faut entrendre ce fameux chanteur Breton, Alain Stivell, en chantant "Heb Brezhoneg" au milieu du "Festival Pop-Celtique" a Bretagne.

"Heb Brezhoneg...." se traduit par "Sans Bretagne / sans la langue bretonne / la France serait ruinee et depourvue de toute esperance."

"Heb Brezoneg" se transpose exactement en langue de pays de Galles, sans besoin de traduire.

Vive le monde celtique ! Twll tyn i bob Sais....

tous pour rien peu d'esprite ont besoin de preuve!

Aries - I was indeed joking about Old French, though some scholars in Paris at the time of its discovery certainly speculated along these lines !

I was however slightly wrong about <<Ogham>> script. The Google entries you will get about this are entirely correct, but the Irish also use the description to cover what is also known as Uncial Script (which is actually what I meant.)

Uncial Script is the flowing calligraphic form of the early Latin alphabet, now used again in all the Celtic countries. It's difficult to download it [...]

Read the full comment - I tried in vain.

The best examples to give are that the letter "G" is like a capital letter "S" with a "_" on top, and the "T" is like a "C" with a "_" on top. The "A" is beyond description. If I can find an emailable typefont of all this, I'll send it to you.

We're probably getting Off Topic, but no more than many other contributors who contribute in less good humour than this.

Dr Oz.
i still don't see references to precise sources .
merci beaucoup.

Dear Aries, since you brought up Herodotus I would like to make two points. Herodotus was under the patronage of the king of Macedonia, which may have contributed to his story that Macedonians were a Greek tribe. Secondly, some scholars have made wrong translations.If you read some books on Herodotus, simple words can bring a whole new meaning! Case in point, the line, "and were known as Macedonians", reads in some old Greek and Latin text as, "and were known to the Macedonians"!!!

Koinos Nous
Do not get exited.
The example i used was not directed to you , but to some So-called brillant minds who asserted it.
By the way what could be more interesting than Alphabets
thanks for the Ogham script
i knew about the Runic
anyhow Omniglot is a very good site to visit.
You must be joking about old French.

Re the Rosetta stone - anybody knows that the third language is really Old French (which is why Napoleon's arny tried to retain it). I don't think I have ever suggested that it was Macedonian (not least as the Cyrillic alphabet had not yet been invented !)

If you are really interested in ancient alphabets, there is the Runic script dating from about 400 BC and current in Northern Europe, and also the Ogham script (Celtic) dating from the same era, and still used ceremonially in Ireland and Wales (I can still write in this, given [...]

Read the full comment a glass of wine to steady my hand. It's very artistic.)

In short, I plead Not Guilty (on this occasion)

Koinos Nous
I am open to any sugestions, providing they are backed up historically,and put under the scrutiny of scholarship,hence published and accepted in epistemological way.
Not i.e A theory that says that the Coptic demotic Script on the Rosetta stone is Ancient Macedonian Script,for heaven's sake please spare me the rubbish.
the Slab was meant to be read by
all the Hieroglyphics by the clergy and Aristocracy of Egypt
the Demotic by the less educated
Copts(the descendants of the Ancient egyptians) and ancient Greek the then lingua [...]

Read the full comment franca of the
Eastern Mediteranean)
Dr Oz.
I still maintain that your views are biased opposite to mine.
prove me wrong by naming your sources.
The Marxian philosophy is named by
some a religion history proved the opposite and has put it in its correct context.

Any strongly-held belief (such as that of Alexander I of Macedon competing in the Olympics) that relies on only one single historical source, is distinctly wobbly (or susceptible to challenge.)

Even Biblical scholars prefer to quote episodes that are mentioned in two or three Gospels, not just one.

The more I get over-reactions like this, the more I suspect that Dr Oz may well be right after all.

To Koinos Nous: I am sorry to tell your reasoning below does not have any historical ethic nor logic:

"To take one example : the presence of King Alexander I of Macedon at the Olympic Games as a competitor, and the deduction that he was therefore recognised as a Greek. Herodotus is virtually the only (brief) source for this story, but Herodotus was known for writing entertaining stories (a bit like today's journalists) that sometimes manipulated the facts to suit the story and to create a moral. But much has been made of this one account [...]

Read the full comment to argue that Alexander I was therefore fully recognised at the time as a Greek by the city-states participating in the Olympics".

>>>How can you be sure that Herodotus has manipulated the historical facts? Were you present during those old times? Do you know Herodotus personally? NO! Your judgement is focused on what he wrote, but not on what he was. You cannot create your own logic based on what he wrote only, that's kinda subjective...
There were indeed two parts in the work of Herodotus: the part of entertaining, but the main part was historical. Sometimes both parts were mixed in his way of narrating history, BUT not always... In this case, better to avoid misunderstandings.
Your reasoning is based on a series of hypothesis which made it therefore pretty unvalid.

"The rather more disciplined Classical historian Thucydides makes no mention at all of this episode. So is it history or fable ?"

>>>Because Thucydides made no mention, therefore there are doubt about what Herodotus wrote? What kind of logic is that?? Did you never think that Thucydides was unable to wrote the WHOLE greek History of his times? Maybe he did avoid to wrote this episode for personal reasons, or because it didn't catch his attention? But that does not mean in ANY way that this episode never happened.

Of course, we cannot be sure about what History was during that old times. Even on our present History, historians have different points of view. But for them, the last survived texts still remain a the most solid proof they can have from the past and this is what History as a scientific discipline is all about...

Aries - Dr Oz does have a slight point in what he says, though he is not necessarily predominantly right, so please don't dismiss his words out of hand. In particular, when he describes:

<<Greek-loving English historians who are enamoured with ancient Greeks!! >>

he has a very good point. There was a pronounced tendency in Hellenophile English Classical historians to "read backwards" from the later civilised epoch of Aristotle and Plato into the much darker and earlier years before 500 BC., and apply the later standards to the earlier era.
[...]

Read the full comment />
This is complicated by the fact that (a) many manuscript accounts of earlier history have been destroyed - notably in Constantinople in 1453, and (b) all we have remaining now is but a partial account.

To take one example : the presence of King Alexander I of Macedon at the Olympic Games as a competitor, and the deduction that he was therefore recognised as a Greek. Herodotus is virtually the only (brief) source for this story, but Herodotus was known for writing entertaining stories (a bit like today's journalists) that sometimes manipulated the facts to suit the story and to create a moral. But much has been made of this one account to argue that Alexander I was therefore fully recognised at the time as a Greek by the city-states participating in the Olympics.

The rather more disciplined Classical historian Thucydides makes no mention at all of this episode. So is it history or fable ?

Many Classical scholars of today are re-visiting the hallowed translations of the past (especially the English ones) to see how far they actually accord with the original Greek or Latin texts. These scholars are also aware that there are many missing original Greek/Latin texts, which would otherwise be needed to form a definitive account of what actually took place.

(Occasionally, "lost" texts do indeed turn up, such as the Dead Sea Scrolls, and the revision of previously-held firm views by Classical scholars can be painful !)

This is not "revisonism" as such, but more "redactionism" (i.e. checking that the original text actually said what it has long been claimed to have said). So to that extent Dr Oz does indeed have a point that should be listened to.

Dear Aries, thank you for pointing out the historical facts but your still twisting them in your Greek biased way. Try reading the older history texts in Greek and Latin and translate them properly !! You will find that the Macedonians and Greeks were referred to as having different cultures!! In other words don't rely on Greek loving English historians who are enamoured with ancient Greeks!! By the way, in your round about way you justified the existence of one Macedonia and as Prime Minister Gladstone said" Why not Macedonia for the Macedonians" !!!

Aries - many thanks. (I should apologise for having written "ellekino" earlier, rather than "elleniko". This was just a silly typo on my part.)

I wouldn't use the "YU" illustration too widely - some people on this site will start ranting again about Yugoslavia.

Back to the subject, clearly the Greek letter Upsilon ("Y" upper case, "u" lower case) is pronounced quite differently in different vowel/consonant combinations, at least in modern Greek. (And they say English pronounciation is difficult !!)

I was going to say that Slavonic languages [...]

Read the full comment are simpler in this respect, then I thought of Russian and the different ways of pronouncing Cyrillic "G", which continue to mystify the foreigner ! (In "segodnia" - 'today' it's pronounced as a V, but in "ulica Gertsena" (main street in St Petersburg) it's pronounced as "H". But sometimes it is also pronounced as English 'G'.)

Koinos Nous.
In Greek Hellenic Thanks-giving is
ΕΥΧΑΡΗΣΤΗΡΙΑ EVCHARISTIRIA
EUCHARISTIC IS THE LATIN WORD
eu being vocalized as YU
while the Greek is vocalized like
ev.
thanks for pointing the subtle difference.

Yes - Periclis - I know you have the euro now, because I have been overcharged in that too (slightly, and in Kephallonia)

But in the old days of the drachma - and also the Italian lire - since the currency was denominated in '000 units, it was very easy for waiters to overcharge. And they did.....

So an inflated bill from 2500 to 4000 is (was !) all too feasible.

Curiously, I don't recall it ever happening in Spain, where the pre-euro peseta also had '000 s [...]

Read the full comment compared with the euro.

Yes, Aries, you're of course quite right. It is spelled "polu", but pronounced "poli". (Which - genuinely - is the best way to render it in Latin script ? Our churches celebrate the "Eucharist", but in modern Greek this is rendered as "Efkharist(o)", or in other words "thanks" or "thanksgiving".)

Oh for the certainties of "palaio(h)ellekino", where we all spelled it correctly but pronounced it extremely badly !

O andres athenaioi...pikros kai lugros

Wizard of Oz(fairy tale Wizard)
and to whoever is eager on promting revisionism.
Livy’s account of the creation of the Roman province of Macedonia (45.29.7 and 12) makes clear that the Paionians lived north of those mountains (which form today the geographically natural northern limits of Greece) and south of the Dardanians who were in today’s Kosovo.
Strabo (7. frag 4) is even more succinct in saying that Paionia was north of Macedonia and the only connection from one to the other was (and is today) through the narrow gorge of the Axios (or [...]

Read the full comment Vardar) River.
In other words, the land which is described by Matthew Brunwasser in his “Owning Alexander” was Paionia in antiquity.
While it is true that those people were subdued by Philip II, father of Alexander, in 359 B.C. (Diodorus Siculus 16.4.2), they were never Macedonians and never lived in Macedonia.
Demosthenes (Olynthian 1.23) tells us that they were “enslaved” by the Macedonian Philip and clearly, therefore, not Macedonians. Isokrates (5.23) makes the same point. Likewise, for example, the Egyptians who were subdued by Alexander may have been ruled by Macedonians, including the famous Cleopatra, but they were never Macedonians themselves, and Egypt was never called Macedonia (and so far as I can tell does not seek that name today).
Certainly, as Thucydides (2.99) tells us, the Macedonians had taken over “a narrow strip of Paionia extending along the Axios river from the interior to Pella and the sea”. One might therefore understand if the people in the modern republic centered at Skopje called themselves Paionians and claimed as theirs the land described by Thucydides.
But why, instead, would the modern people of ancient Paionia try to call themselves Macedonians and their land Macedonia? Mr. Brunwasser (p. 55) touches on the Greek claims “that it implies ambitions over Greek territory” and he notes that “the northern province of Greece is also called Macedonia.”
Leaving aside the fact that the area of that northern province of modern Greece has been called Macedonia for more than 2,500 years (see, inter alios, Herodotus 5.17; 7.128, et alibi), more recent history shows that the Greek concerns are legitimate.
For example, a map produced in Skopje in 1992 (Figure 1) shows clearly the claim that Macedonia extends from there to Mt. Olympus in the south; that is, combining the ancient regions of Paionia and Macedonia into a single entity.

The same claim is explicit on a pseudo-bank note of the Republic of Macedonia which shows, as one of its monuments, the White Tower of Thessalonike, in Greece (Figure 2). There are many more examples of calendars, Christmas cards, bumper-stickers, etc., that all make the same claim.
Who is breakinhg the Interim Accord
Macedonia Prima or Macedonia salutaris (Paionia)?

Wizard of Oz(fairy tale Wizard)
and to whoever is eager on promting revisionism.
Livy’s account of the creation of the Roman province of Macedonia (45.29.7 and 12) makes clear that the Paionians lived north of those mountains (which form today the geographically natural northern limits of Greece) and south of the Dardanians who were in today’s Kosovo.
Strabo (7. frag 4) is even more succinct in saying that Paionia was north of Macedonia and the only connection from one to the other was (and is today) through the narrow gorge of the Axios (or [...]

Read the full comment Vardar) River.
In other words, the land which is described by Matthew Brunwasser in his “Owning Alexander” was Paionia in antiquity.
While it is true that those people were subdued by Philip II, father of Alexander, in 359 B.C. (Diodorus Siculus 16.4.2), they were never Macedonians and never lived in Macedonia.
Demosthenes (Olynthian 1.23) tells us that they were “enslaved” by the Macedonian Philip and clearly, therefore, not Macedonians. Isokrates (5.23) makes the same point. Likewise, for example, the Egyptians who were subdued by Alexander may have been ruled by Macedonians, including the famous Cleopatra, but they were never Macedonians themselves, and Egypt was never called Macedonia (and so far as I can tell does not seek that name today).
Certainly, as Thucydides (2.99) tells us, the Macedonians had taken over “a narrow strip of Paionia extending along the Axios river from the interior to Pella and the sea”. One might therefore understand if the people in the modern republic centered at Skopje called themselves Paionians and claimed as theirs the land described by Thucydides.
But why, instead, would the modern people of ancient Paionia try to call themselves Macedonians and their land Macedonia? Mr. Brunwasser (p. 55) touches on the Greek claims “that it implies ambitions over Greek territory” and he notes that “the northern province of Greece is also called Macedonia.”
Leaving aside the fact that the area of that northern province of modern Greece has been called Macedonia for more than 2,500 years (see, inter alios, Herodotus 5.17; 7.128, et alibi), more recent history shows that the Greek concerns are legitimate.
For example, a map produced in Skopje in 1992 (Figure 1) shows clearly the claim that Macedonia extends from there to Mt. Olympus in the south; that is, combining the ancient regions of Paionia and Macedonia into a single entity.

The same claim is explicit on a pseudo-bank note of the Republic of Macedonia which shows, as one of its monuments, the White Tower of Thessalonike, in Greece (Figure 2). There are many more examples of calendars, Christmas cards, bumper-stickers, etc., that all make the same claim.
Who is breakinhg the Interim Accord
Macedonia Prima or Macedonia salutaris (Paionia)?

your story about dracmes is old because last year we have euro.finaly here we takk for history and not for coin.my IQ is okey check yours.you believ the tito fantasma,and propagant not me.kiro gligorof [presiden on fyrom 1990] says on greece press 30 days ago:we are slavs we come on this area latter we dont have nothing close too alexadros we are not macedonian.

finaly because on greece we are very welcome too the tourist,we give you meal for free.wen you come too greece visit olso the vergina,you see lott of things.

Koinos Nous.
Where in the hell did you get
that "polu" the correct transliterated is "poli"
In greek "πολυ"
the the ypsilon is not vocalizwd by
U SOUND but by an I SOUND.

your story about dracmes is old because last year we have euro.finaly here we takk for history and not for coin.my IQ is okey check yours.you believ the tito fantasma,and propagant not me.kiro gligorof [presiden on fyrom 1990] says on greece press 30 days ago:we are slavs we come on this area latter we dont have nothing close too alexadros we are not macedonian.

"Greece Waiter" is here at last, to plead guilty to taking 4000 drachmai for a 2500 drachmai meal, and justifying it by calling it the "Greek Service Charge".

Efkharisto polu - now I know !! If talling about "stealer", he must mean himself....

dear dr.oz,the history is not a komic like popay too fix how you like,you the skopians must learn,the tito propagant is not history.the propagant is over the game is over.wen you are part of yugoslavia you are pacet stealer,today history stealer,you never stop too be stealer????betwene steal fyromanian and greece waiter,better waiter.

Dr Oz.
In your twisted revisionism can you say where exactly i am wrong
and support your views as it is supported in the text, if yes proceed step by step if not close your big mouth.
Generalities are not accepted
precision is what i like to see.
Cheers.

Dear Greeks, pull yourself out of your fantasy. Aries all you did in your tirade was to twist a lot words from the history books and slant them towards your biased Greek thinking, good try, but true historians know the facts and that's what counts!! As for my friend G.M.S.(also known as the laughing know it all) your repetitive answers do not make your facts right, it seems that in your mind you have developed this imaginary Greek greatness , in that every thing you say is gospel. I say to that get help! As for your 2500 years of [...]

Read the full comment Greek rule Get Real!!

As Paulos Melos says, I think we can all agree on 2500 years.

The "4000" years agreed by "scholars" does sound a bit unproven, just like the Greek waiter with his 4000 drachmai bill for a meal that cost 2500 drachmai !

I would not enter again the debate of 4000 years of the Greek Macedonia, which is an historical proved fact by the scholars and ancient greek historians...

But, regardless the present situation which seems to go into the direction of a proclamed "Republic of Northern Macedonia", everyone has to recognize that the "regeneration" of the "Macedonia" identity in FYROM has been forced and is clearly an anachronism in the XXth century. Because the "Macedonia" identity survived through the greek heritage and the actual Greece. This part of Macedonia which is named FYROM today was extincted for [...]

Read the full comment many centuries. Skopjans for a very long time were more proud to be slavic than Macedonians.
FYROM clearly ressurected an old story, to not say a myth for goals which in fact have very less to do with a regaining dead history. The perspective is/was clearly geostrategic.

What ancient macedonian ultimate origins were we cannot be certain.
But for one thing we are.
Ancient macedonians self determined as greeks start speaking attic greek, and fully absorbed in hellenism since the 4th century bc thus 2,500 years ago.
There is no ground on skopian claims.
Should they feel confident about their origins then why VMRO banned genetic research and name research of the current skopians.
is it because perhaps there shall be a revelation of a pure bulgarian ancestry that was discontinued only 50 years ago only to [...]

Read the full comment be replaced by he forgery of macedonism?
Can any skopian proove beyond any doubt that their great grand parents are not pure bulgarians?
please i would like to know.

Koinos Nous
You ARE obsessed by Wipo my friend
stop being.
you reading the Sun(A Conservative
strong hold how come amazing
From were did you get the quoted rubbish.
you want facts here they follow
Fallacy #1
The inhabitants of The former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia (The FYROM) are ethnic Macedonians, direct descendants of, or related to the ancient Macedonians.

Fact #1
The inhabitants of The FYROM are mostly Slavs, Bulgarians and Albanians. They have nothing in common [...]

Read the full comment with the ancient Macedonians. Here are some testimonies from The FYROM’s officials:
a.The Former President of The FYROM, Kiro Gligorov said: “We are Slavs who came to this area in the sixth century ... we are not descendants of the ancient Macedonians" (Foreign Information Service Daily Report, Eastern Europe, February 26, 1992, p. 35).
b.Also, Mr Gligorov declared: "We are Macedonians but we are Slav Macedonians. That's who we are! We have no connection to Alexander the Greek and his Macedonia… Our ancestors came here in the 5th and 6th century" (Toronto Star, March 15, 1992).
c.On 22 January 1999, Ambassador of the FYROM to USA, Ljubica Achevska gave a speech on the present situation in the Balkans. In answering questions at the end of her speech Mrs. Acevshka said: "We do not claim to be descendants of Alexander the Great … Greece is Macedonia’s second largest trading partner, and its number one investor. Instead of opting for war, we have chosen the mediation of the United Nations, with talks on the ambassadorial level under Mr. Vance and Mr. Nemitz." In reply to another question about the ethnic origin of the people of FYROM, Ambassador Achevska stated that "we are Slavs and we speak a Slav language.”
d.On 24 February 1999, in an interview with the Ottawa Citizen, Gyordan Veselinov, FYROM'S Ambassador to Canada,admitted, "We are not related to the northern Greeks who produced leaders like Philip and Alexander the Great. We are a Slav people and our language is closely related to Bulgarian." He also comented, “There is some confusion about the identity of the people of my country."
e. Moreover, the Foreign Minister of the FYROM, Slobodan Casule, in an interview to Utrinski Vesnik of Skopje on December 29, 2001, said that he mentioned to the Foreign Minister of Bulgaria, Solomon Pasi, that they "belong to the same Slav people.”
Fact #2
The Macedonian Greeks are NOT of the same ethnic group as the Macedonian Slavs of The FYROM. The Macedonian Greeks are just that, Greeks who live in or originate from the geographic area of Macedonia.
They are the only people, that by inheritance, can be called Macedonians.
Fact #3
Ancient Macedonians were one of more than the 230 Hellenic tribes, sub-tribes, and families of the Hellenic Nation that spoke more than 200 dialects. For more information see Herodotus, Thucydides, Titus Livius, Strabo, Nevi'im, Ketuvim, Apocrypha (Macabees I, 1-2). It was not until 1945 that their Hellenism has been challenged by the Slavs for expansionistic reasons.
Fact #4
No. Hellas (Greece) was first recognized as a nation state or legal entity as we understand it today in 1830.
From the beginning until that time, the term Hellas was only a geographic term or an administrative area whose borders were changing depending on the needs of the Roman, Byzantine, or Ottoman Empires.
Fact5
Linguistically, there is no real distinction between a dialect and a language without a specific factor. People usually consider the political factor to determine whether a certain kind of speech is a language or a dialect. Since the Pan-Hellenic area consisted of many small city- states (Attica, Lacedaemon, Corinth, etc.), and larger states (Molossia, Thesprotia, Macedonia, Acarnania, Aetolia, etc.), it was common knowledge at the time that the people of all those states were speaking different languages, when in fact they were all variations of the same language, Hellenic or Greek.
The most advanced of all Hellenic dialects was the dialect of Attica (Athens) or Attic.
When people state “ancient Greek language” they mean the Attic dialect and any comparison of the Macedonian dialect to ancient Greek is actually a comparison to the Attic dialect. The difference between Macedonian and Attic was like the difference between Low and High German. Nobody doubts that both are Germanic languages, although they differ from one another. Another good example of a multi-dialectal linguistic regime is present-day Italy.
The official language of Italy is the Florentine, but common people still speak their own dialects. Two people from different areas of Italy cannot communicate if both speak their respective dialect, and yet they both speak Italian. Why should the Hellenic language be treated differently?
At that time, Greeks spoke more than 200 Hellenic dialects or languages, as the ancient Greeks used to call them.
Some of the well-known dialects were Ionic, Attic, Doric, Aeolic, Cypriot, Arcadic, Aetolic, Acarnanic, Macedonian and Locric. Moreover, we know that the Romans considered the Macedonians as Hellenic speaking peoples.
Livy wrote, "…The Aetolians, the Acarnanians, the Macedonians, men of the same speech, are united or disunited by trivial causes that arise from time to time …" (Livy, History of Rome, b. XXXI par. XXIX). The Aetolians and Acarnanians were definitely Hellenic tribes. On another occasion Livy writes "…[General Paulus] took his official seat surrounded by the whole crowd of Macedonians … his announcement was translated into Greek and repeated by Gnaeus Octavius the praetor…”. If the crowd of Macedonians were not Greek speaking, why then did the Romans need to translate Paulus' speech into Greek? (Livy, History of Rome, b. XLV, para XXIX).
The Macedonian dialect was an Aeolic dialect of the Western Greek language group (Hammond, The Macedonian State, p. 193). All those dialects differ from each other, but never in a way that one person could not understand the other. The Military Yugoslavian Encyclopedia of the 1974 edition (Letter M, page 219), a very anti-Hellenic biased publication, states, “… u doba rimske invazije, njihov jezik bio grčki, ali se dva veka ranije dosta razlikovao od njega, mada ne toliko da se ta dva naroda nisu mogla sporazumevati.” (… at the time of the Roman invasion their language was Hellenic, but two centuries before it was different enough, but not as much as the two peoples could not understand one another).
After the death of Alexander the Great, the situation changed in the vast empire into a new reality. Ptolemy II, Philadelphos (308-246 BC) the Pharaoh (king) of Egypt realized that the physical unification of the Greeks and the almost limitless expansion of the Empire required the standardization of the already widely used common language or Koinē. Greek was already the lingua franca of the vast Hellenistic world in all four kingdoms of the Diadochi (Alexander's Successors). It was already spoken, but neither an official alphabet nor grammar had yet been devised.
Alexandria, Egypt was already the Cultural Center of the Empire in about 280 BC. Ptolemy II assigned Aristeas, an Athenian scholar, to create the grammar of the new language, one that not only all Greeks, but all inhabitants of the Empire would be able to speak. Thus, Aristeas used the Attic dialect as basis for the new language.
Aristeas and the scholars who were assisting him trimmed the language a little, eliminated the Attic idiosyncrasies and added words as well as grammatical and syntactical rules mainly from the Doric, Ionic, and Aeolic dialects.
The Spartan Doric, however, was excluded from it (see Tsakonian further down). So, they standardized THE Hellenic language, called Koine or Common.
The language was far from perfect. Non-Greeks encountered difficulties reading it since there was no way to separate words, sentences and paragraphs. In addition, they were unable to express their feelings and the right intonation. During that time, Greek was a melodic language, even more melodic than Italian is today.
The system of paragraphs, sentences, and some symbols like ~. ;`'! , were the result of continuous improvement and enhancement of the language with the contribution of many Greek scholars from all over the World.
There were a few alphabets employed by various Hellenic cities or states, and these alphabets included letters specific to the sounds of their particular dialect. There were two main categories, the Eastern and the Western alphabets. The first official alphabet omitted all letters not in use any longer ( sampi, qoppa, digamma also known as stigma in Greek numbering) and it presented a 24-letter alphabet for the new Koinē language. However, the inclusion and use of small letters took place over a period of many centuries after the standardization of Koinē.
After the new language was completed with its symbols, the Jews of Egypt felt that it was an opportunity for them to translate their sacred books into Greek since it was the language that the Jews of Diaspora spoke.
So on the island of Pharos, by Alexandria's seaport, 72 Jewish rabbis were secluded and isolated as they translated their sacred books (Torah, Nevi’im, Ketuvim, etc.) from Aramaic and Hebrew to the Koinē Greek, the newly created language. This is known as the Septuagint translation. The Koinē evolved and in about two to three centuries it became the language that Biblical scholars call Biblical Greek. In fact, only those who have studied the Attic dialect can understand the difference between the Septuagint Greek and the Greek of the New Testament.
Although the Koinē was officially in use, common folk in general continued to speak their own dialect and here and there one can sense the insertion of elements of the Attic dialect in various documents such as the New Testament. The Gospel according to St. John and the Revelation are written in perfect Attic.
The other three Synoptic Gospels were written in Koinē with the insertion of some Semitic grammatical concepts (i.e. the Hebrew genitive) and invented words (i.e. epiousios).
The outcome is that today in Greece there are many variations in speech; of course not to the point of people not understanding each other, but still there is divergence in the Greek spoken tongue. Today the Hellenic language accepts only one dialect, the Tsakonian, which is a direct development of the ancient Doric dialect of Sparta.
The Demotic(not the Demotic on the Rosetta Stone which iis Coptic is a development of mostly the Doric sound system, whereas the Katharevousa is a made-up language based on the Classical Attic. Presently, the speech in various areas of Greece somehow differs from each other and sometimes an untrained ear might have difficulty understanding the local speech. Pontic and Cypriot Greek are very good examples to the unacquainted ear. Tsakonian dialect, the descendant of the Spartan Doric, is almost impossible to understand if one is not familiar with it.
Over the years, Macedonia had several names. At first the Macedonians gave the land the name, Emathia, after their leader Emathion. It derives from the word amathos, amathoeis meaning sand or sandy.
From now on, all of its names are Greek. Later it was called Maketia or Makessa and finally Makedonia (Macedonia). The latter names are derived from the Doric/Aeolic word “makos,” (in Attic “mēkos) meaning length (see Homer, Odyssey, VII, 106), thus Makednos means long or tall, but also a highlander or mountaineer. (cf. Orestae, Hellenes).
In Opis, during the mutiny of the Macedonian Army, Alexander the Great spoke to the whole Macedonian Army addressing them in Greek (Arrian, Anabasis of Alexander, VII, 9,10). The Macedonian soldiers listened to him and they were dumbfounded by what they heard from their Commander-in-Chief. They were upset. Immediately after Alexander left for the Palace, they demanded that Alexander allow them to enter the palace so that they could talk to him.
When this was reported to Alexander, he quickly came out and saw their restrained disposition; he heard the majority of his soldiers crying and lamenting, and was moved to tears. He came forward to speak, but they remained there imploring him. One of them, named Callines, whose age and command of the Companion cavalry made him preeminent spoke as follows: “Sire, what grieves the Macedonians is that you have already made some Persians your ‘kinsmen’, and the Persians are called ‘kinsmen’ of Alexander and are allowed to kiss you, while not one of the Macedonians has been granted this honor” (Arrian, Anabasis of Alexander, VII, 8-11).
The previous story clearly reveals that the Macedonians were speaking Greek since they could understand their leader. There were thousands of them, not just some selected few who happened to speak Greek. It would be unrealistic for Alexander the Great to speak to them in a language they supposedly did not speak. It would be impossible to believe that the Macedonian soldiers were emotionally moved to the point that all of them were lamenting after listening to a language they did not understand. There is no way for the Macedonians to have taken a crash course in Greek in 20 minutes so that they would be able to understand the speech simultaneously as Alexander was delivering it.
Furthermore, the Macedonians wore a distinctive hat, the “kausia” (καυσία) (Polybius IV 4,5; Eustathius 1398; Arrian, Anabasis of Alexander, VII 22; cf. Sturz, Macedonian Dialect, 41) from the Greek word for heat that separated them from the rest of the Greeks. That is why the Persians called them “yauna takabara,” which meant “Greeks wearing the hat”. The Macedonian hat was very distinctive from the hats of the other Greeks, but the Persians did not distinguished the Macedonians, because the Macedonian speech was also Greek (Hammond, The Macedonian State p. 13 cf. J.M. Balcer, Historia, 37 [1988] 7).
On the mountainsides of the Himalayas and the Indian Caucasus and under Pakistani and Afghanistan jurisdiction lives a tribe whose people call themselves Kalash. They claim to be the descendants of Alexander the Great’s soldiers who for various reasons were left behind in the depths of Asia and could not follow the Great General in his new conquests. Having no contact with the outside world for almost 23 centuries, they are quite different from any other neighboring nations.
Light complexioned, and blue eyed in the midst of dark skinned neighbors, their language, even though it has been affected and influenced by the many Muslim languages of nations that surround the Kalash tribe, still incorporates vocabulary and has many elements of the ancient Greek language. They greet their visitors with "ispanta" from the Greek verb "ασπάζομαι" (greetings) and they warn them about "heman" from the ancient Greek noun "χειμών" (winter). These indigenous people still believe in the twelve Olympian gods and their architecture resembles very much the Macedonian architecture (National Herald, “A School in the Tribe of Kalash by Greeks", October 11, 1996).
Michael Wood, the British scholar in his In the Footsteps of Alexander the Great (p.8), quotes the following statement made by a Kalash named Kazi Khushnawaz:
Long long ago, before the days of Islam, Sikander e Aazem came to India. The Two Horned one whom you British people call Alexander the Great. (sic) He conquered the world, and was a very great man, brave and dauntless and generous to his followers. When he left to go back to Greece, some of his men did not wish to go back with him but preferred to stay here. Their leader was a general called Shalakash [Seleucus]. With some of his officers and men, he came to these valleys and they settled here and took local women, and here they stayed. We, the Kalash, the Black Kafir of the Hindu Kush, are the descendants of their children. Still some of our words are the same as theirs, our music and our dances, too; we worship the same gods. This is why we believe the Greeks are our first ancestors...
Seleucus was one of the Generals of Alexander the Great. He was born in 358 or 354 BC in the town of Europos, Macedonia and died in August/September 281 BC near Lysimathia, Thrace.)
The Kalash today worship the ancient Greek gods and especially Di Zau [Dias Zeus], the great sky god.
Unfortunately, their language died out only in Muslim times. This is further evidence that Macedonians and Greeks spoke the same language, had the same religion and the same customs.
Accusations of Macedonians being barbarians started in Athens and they were the result of political fabrications based on the Macedonian way of life and not on their ethnicity or language. (Casson, Macedonia, Thrace and Illyria, p158, Errington, A History of Macedonia, p 4). Demosthenes traveled to Macedonia twice for a total of nine months. He knew very well what language the Macedonians were speaking. We encountered similar behavior with Thrasyboulos. He states that the Acarnanians were barbarians only when the Athenians encountered a conflict of political interest from the Acarnanians. The Macedonian way of life differed in many ways from the southern Greek way of life, but that was very common among the Western Greeks such as Chaones, Molossians, Thesprotians, Acarnanians, Aetolians and Macedonians (Errington, A History of Macedonia, p 4.) Macedonian state institutions were similar to those of the Mycenean and Spartan (Wilcken, Alexander the Great, p 23). Regarding Demosthenes addressing Philip as “barbarian” even Badian an opponent of the Greekness of Macedonians states “It may have nothing to do with historical fact, any more than the orators' tirades against their personal enemies usually have.”
(E. Badian, Studies in the History of Art Vol 10: Macedonia And Greece in Late Classical and Early Hellenistic Times, Greeks and Macedonians).
Fact #6
Before Phillip II, Macedonia was divided into small typical city-states having adopted the same concept of internal civic structure as the southern Greek city-states. Each Macedonian city-state or area had its own main city and government. Philip II united the Macedonian city-states by instituting and establishing a Homeric style of a Kingdom, maintaining the infrastructure of the smaller city-states with the various kings paying tribute to the king of all Macedonia. We know this from the fact that at one time the king of Lyncestis (present day Bitola - Florina) was Alexander. The point that has to be made clear is that a man’s first loyalty was to his city, not to the King of Macedonia (Hammond, The Macedonian State, p. 9).
Fact #7
The ancient Macedonians, under the influence of the new common language, the Koine, as developed over the years, were amalgamated with the rest of the Hellenes, or Greeks.
Fact #8
The king of Macedonia, Alexander I, was named Philhellene by the Theban poet Pindaros for the same reason Jason of Pherrai and Euagoras of Cyprus were called Philhellenes (Isocrates 107A, 199A).
The title Philhellene in ancient times meant Philopatris (lover of the homeland) or simply put “a patriot” (Plato, Politics, 470E; Xenophon, Agesilaus, 7, 4), which is why Alexander the Great did not touch the traditional house of Pindaros when he ordered his soldiers to burn Thebes.
Fact #9
Greece is an area which lacking geographic continuity fostered alienation of individual tribes not only in the general sense, but also in a narrower sense. That explains why the ancient Greeks did not have a common national conscience which is why they were warring against each other. The Macedonians destroyed or burned cities belonging to other Greek City States for the same reason the Athenians, the Thebans, and the Spartans battled one another.
They knew that somehow they were related, but local conscience was much stronger than a Pan- Hellenic one. Ancient Greeks, of the Hellenic mainland, were united before an enemy attack that could endanger the common freedom and welfare. This fact was displayed anytime the Persians attacked the Hellenic lands.
Greeks from Ionia and Aeolia (present day Aegean shores of Turkey), however, were mostly Persian allies in opposition to the Mainland Greeks.
It was common practice for various Hellenic states to form political/military alliances with each other and against each other, but they did not develop ethnic partnerships. There are plenty of such alliances in the ancient Hellenic world.
A few centuries went by until the Greeks began developing a national conscience. The Greeks definitely achieved the completion of a national conscience by the time Justinian was crowned the Emperor of Byzantium.
Very few ancient Greeks, such as Pericles, Demosthenes and Phillip II of Macedonia had the vision of a united country, but each one wanted to see his own state as the leading force of such a union. Pericles dreamed of it, Demosthenes advocated it, but Phillip II materialized it. Also, the Macedonians had common religious practices and customs as the Spartans.
Fact # 9
Though there is a lot of evidence (mostly indirect) regarding the language of the ancient Macedonians, there is one piece of evidence offered by Polybius in book XXVIII, paragraphs 8 and 9, where it states that the Macedonians were using translators when they were communicating with the Illyrians. This means the Macedonians and the Illyrians did not speak the same language. For instance, Perseus, the Macedonian
king, sent Adaeus of Berroia (who spoke only Greek) and Pleuratus the Illyrian, as a translator (because he spoke the Illyrian language) on a mission to the Illyrian king Genthius (169 BC). Pleuratus was an exile living in Perseus' court. Moreover there is evidence that the Illyrians and the Macedonians were vicious enemies.
Fact #11
It is very true that a good number of the Greeks living in Greek Macedonia are refugees from various Middle Eastern countries. However, it is also true that these Greeks are descendants of those ancient Greeks, including ancient Macedonians, who either colonized various areas of what presently are Russia, Ukraine, Georgia, Bulgaria, Turkey, the Middle East, or followed the greatest General of all times, Alexander the Great. These Greeks simply came home after at least two and one half millennia of spreading the Greek spirit, culture, language and civilization. Mother Greece made her lands available to her returning and thought to be lost offspring. It was the least she could do. After all they had every right to come home, just as the Jews did and they are still going home to Israel.
Fact #12
The term “Slav Apostles” or the “Apostles of the Slavs” does not mean that the two brothers were Slavs.
St. Thomas is called “the Indian Apostle,” but we all know that he was not an Indian. He simply taught Christianity to the Indians. The Greek brothers from Thessaloniki taught Christianity to the Slavs, they gave them the alphabet Glagolithic Alphabet (presently called Cyrillic after Cyrill Constantine of Ohrid". and they translated the sacred and liturgical books of Christianity into the Old Church Slavonic, otherwise known as Old Bulgarian.
Pope John Paul II in his Encyclical Epistles of December 31, 1980, and June 2, 1985, while he was commemorating the two brothers, affirmed the fact that both were Greeks from Thessaloniki.
Professors Ivan Lazaroff, Plamen Pavloff, Ivan Tyutyundzijeff and Milko Palangurski of the Faculty of History of Sts. Cyril and Methodius University in Veliko Tŭrnovo, Bulgaria in their book, Kratka istoriya na bŭlgarskiya narod (Short History of the Bulgarian Nation, pp 36-38), state very explicitly that the two brothers were Greeks from Thessaloniki. The late Oscar Halecki, Professor of Eastern European History, in his book Borderlands of Western Civilization, A History of East Central Europe (chapter Moravian State and the Apostles of the Slavs) agrees with the authors of Kratka istoriya na bŭlgarskiya narod.
Fact #13
There is nothing in common between The FYROM’s lion and the lion's skin that Alexander the Great wears in some coins. The FYROM’s lion is actually the Bulgarian lion, which is depicted in the Bulgarian Coat of Arms.
Alexander’s lion is the lion's skin that Heracles killed in Nemea, which is one of the 12 deeds executed by the mythological hero. The lion skin that Alexander the Great wears signifies his ancestral relationship to Heracles (Hercules). There is an unpublished inscription from Xanthos dating from the third century BC (cf. Robert, Amyzon, 1,162, n 31) where the Ptolemies refer to their Ancestors as “Herakleidas Argeadas”
(Errington, A History of Macedonia, p 265, n 6).
Fact #14
In the Middle Eastern tradition a horned man meant that he was powerful. Darius in his letters to Alexander the Great called him, Zul-Al-Kurnain or Double Horned one. Thus the horns on Alexander’s head means that he was recognized as most powerful.
taken from the Persian who dwell in Asia.” J.R. Hamilton in a note on this event states, “In view of the small part, which the Greeks had played in the battle the inscription [with the omission of any mention of the Macedonians] must be regarded as propaganda designed for his Greek allies. Alexander does not fail to stress the absence of the Spartans.”
Fact #15
J.R. Hamilton’s assumption is unconvincing. Alexander the Great had no reason to please anyone because the troops from South Greece were only 9,400, and as he admits, they only played a small part in the battle. Being the master of the expeditionary force and ignoring his Macedonians while exalting the “foreign Greeks”,
Alexander would have faced the same angry Macedonians that he was confronted with in Opis when he appointed foreigners (Persians and Medes) to high ranks and offices in his Army and administration. However, none of the Macedonians complained about the inscription after the battle of Granicus because they considered themselves included in it.
The fact is that Alexander the Great considered himself and his Macedonians, Greek. He claimed ancestry on his mother’s side from Achilles and on his father’s side from Hercules (Heracles). His ancestor, Alexander I, stated that he was Greek (Herodotus, Histories, V, 20, 22; VIII, 137; IX, 45).
The Macedonians themselves were Greek speaking peoples
(see: Papazoglu, Makedonski Gradovi, p 333 and Central Balkan Tribes, p 135; Casson, Macedonia, Thrace and Illyria, pp157-162; NGL Hammond, The Macedonian State, pp 12-15 and 193; Cavaignac, Histoire de l’ antiquité, i, p 67; Hoffman, Die Makedonen, p. 259; Errington, A History of Macedonia, p 3; Yugoslavian Military Encyclopedia 1974 “Antička Makedonija”; Hogarth, Philip and Alexander, p.5, n 4),
Urlich Wilcken, Alexander the Great, II pp 23 and 24, Botsford, Hellenic History, p 237).
Some of the scholars mentioned above initially were not sure about the Greekness of the Macedonians (i.e. NGL Hammod). Newly discovered artifacts and monuments that were excavated indicating the Macedonians were actually Greek made them admit their previous error. NGL Hammond explains the reason why scholars like Badian do not consider the Macedonians Greeks in his book, The Macedonian State (page 13, note 29). Hammond states that most recently E. Badian in Barr-Sharrar (pp 33-51) disregarded the evidence as explained in A History of Macedonia (NGL Hammond and G. T. Griffith, 1979 pp 39-54). In Barr-Sharrar, Badian holds the view that the Macedonians (whom he does not define) spoke a language other than Greek. Badian keeps ignoring evidence that is against his beliefs and convictions choosing only certain proof and ignoring other relevant proof.
That is exactly the pattern others, like E. Borza, P. Green, etc. have chosen to follow.
All names, whether members of the royal family or not, including names of other simple Macedonian citizens, i.e. Kallinis (Arrian, Anabasis of Alexander, VII par 11), Limnos from Chalastra (Plutarch, Parallel Lives of Famous Greeks and Romans, chap. Alexander) and all toponymies in the area of the Macedonian homeland were Greek. The Macedonian homeland included the city-states of Imathia, Pieria, Bottiea, Mygdonia, Crestonia, Bisaltia, Sintiki, Odomantis, Edonis, Elimea, Orestis, Eordea, Almopia, Lyncestis, Pelagonia and Macedonian Paeonia. Macedonian Paeonia is the part of Paeonia which lies south of the narrow pass at the area of Demir Kapija (The FYROM).
Fanula Papazoglu indirectly agrees with the concept of the above borderlines stating, “… it is often forgotten that ancient Macedonia occupied only a relatively small part of the Yugoslav Macedonia” (Papazoglu, Central Balkan Tribes, p. 268). Papazoglu’s two maps at the end of her doctoral dissertation (Makedonski gradovi u rimsko doba, Skoplje, 1957) portray only Macedonian territories under Roman rule.
Macedonia conquered the already Hellenized Paeonia in 217 BC under King Philip V, 106 years after the death of Alexander the Great. Any map that incorporates Paeonia into Macedonia before that year is absolutely false.
All inscriptions and artifacts excavated, including those in Trebenište and Oleveni near Bitola, are in pure Greek.
With a few exceptions, the only time one sees non-Greek names and toponymies is in areas that constituted the expansion of Macedonia, i.e. Paeonia, Thrace, etc. Any non-Greek names, words or toponymies found in the Macedonian homeland are remnant of Thracians, Phrygians or Paeonians that used to live there before their expulsion by the Macedonians.
Participation in the Olympic Games was unequivocally and definitely a function that only athletes of strictly Hellenic origin could partake. Archelaus had won in the Olympic and Pythian Games (Solinus 9, 16) and Alexander I had also won in the Olympic Games (Herodotus, Histories, V, 22).
It is stated by Herodotus (Histories VIII, 43) that a number of Peloponnesian cities inhabited by Lacedaemonians, Corinthians, Sicyonians, Epidaurians, Troezinians, and Hermionians and that with the exception of Hermionians all others were of Dorian and Macedonian blood. The above people were living in cities located in Peloponnesus, which makes the Macedonians as Greek as the Dorians.
The answer as to why Alexander sent the 300 full suits of Persian armor to goddess Athena, goes back to the battle of Thermopylae and all events that followed. But in order for one to understand it better, one has to know the story of the battle of Thermopylae.
The Persian Army and Navy, headed by Xerxes, won the battle against the 1300 Greeks (1000 from Phocis) lead by the 300 Spartans whose commander was Leonidas. It is important for one to note that the Persians were victorious only when a local Greek, Ephialtes, betrayed a secret passage to the enemy who came from behind and thus surrounded the few Greeks. It is also important to know that according to Lycourgos' laws, Spartans were not allowed to leave the battlefield for any reason, nor they were allowed to follow anyone in the battle. That’s why the Spartans did not follow Alexander against the Persians.
Herodotus (Histories b. VIII, 114) tells us:
… the Spartans upon the urging of the Oracle of Delphi sent a messenger to Xerxes demanding reparations for the death of Leonidas. The man who obtained an interview with Xerxes said to him: ‘My lord, King of the Medes, the Lacedaemonians and the house of Heracles in Sparta demand satisfaction for blood, because you killed their king while he was fighting in defense of Greece.’
Xerxes laughed, and for a time did not answer…
The royal house of Sparta (Herodotus VII, 204), and the royal house of Macedonia (cf. Fact #13) both claimed descent from Heracles (Hercules).
Taking into consideration all of the above, we come to the conclusion that Alexander the Great, being victorious at the battle of Granicus, sent 300 full armor uniforms to goddess Athena who was also the goddess of war, and in this way he AVENGED the 300 Spartans who died defending Greece.
In abundance of information regarding the ancient Greek past comes to us from the Greek Mythology. Unfortunately, Mythology cannot be a dependable source since it cannot furnish trustworthy information which would help us reconstruct the Hellenic past. However, it does not mean it is completely useless either. It elucidates through symbolism truths leading us to the right path while searching for historical facts through written or unwritten monuments. Such monuments are the only ones accepted by historians in their attempt to unlock hidden elements that hold the key to the reconstruction of the past of all Hellenic group of nations.
Countries are products of historical events, which is why they are born and die. Nations do not. Nations are entities that take a very arduous time to evolve. The same thing is true for their appellation. Nations cannot be given birth and receive names whenever politicians wish by legislation, as it is the case of the FYROM.
The present-day Hellenic nation is the result of social, civic and linguistic amalgamation of more than 230 tribes speaking more than 200 dialects that claimed descent from Hellen, son of Deukalion. The Hellenic nation is blessed to espouse in its lengthy life great personalities such as politicians, educators, soldiers, philosophers and authors. They have all contributed in their own way to the molding of their nation. They are the result of natural maturity and a consequence of historical, social, civic, linguistic and political developments that have taken place in the last 4,000 years.
“When we take into account the political conditions, religion and morals of the Macedonians, our conviction is strengthened that they were a Greek race and akin to the Dorians. Having stayed behind in the extreme north, they were unable to participate in the progressive civilization of the tribes which went further south...” (Wilcken,
Alexander the Great, p 22). Most historians have assessed the Macedonian state of affairs in a similar fashion. The Macedonians were a Hellenic group of tribes belonging to the Western Greek ethnic group.
The Macedonians incorporated the territory of the native people into Macedonia and forced the Pieres, a Thracian tribe, out of the area to Mt. Pangaeum and the Bottiaiei from Bottiaia. They further expelled the Eordi from Eordaia and the Almopes from Almopia and they similarly expelled all tribes (Thracian, Paeonian, Illyrian) they found in areas of Anthemus, Crestonia, Bysaltia and other lands. The Macedonians absorbed the few inhabitants of the above tribes that stayed behind. They established their suzerainty over the land of Macedonia without losing their ethnicity, language, or religion (Thucydides, II, 99). They also incorporated the lands of the Elimeiotae, Orestae, Lyncestae, Pelagones, and Deriopes all tribes living in Upper Macedonia who were Greek speakers, but of a different (Molossian) dialect from that spoken by the Macedonians (Hammond, The Macedonian State, p. 390). Then, living with savage northern neighbors such as Illyrians, Thracians, Paeonians and later Dardanians, the Macedonians physically deflected their neighbors’ hordes forming an impenetrable fence denying them the opportunity to attack the Greek city-states of the south, which is why they are considered the bastion of Hellenism.
N. G. L. Hammond states:
What language did these `Macedones' speak? The name itself is Greek in root and in ethnic termination. It probably means `highlanders', and it is comparable to Greek tribal names such as `Orestai' and `Oreitai', mean¬ing 'mountain-men'. A reputedly earlier variant, `Maketai', has the same root, which means `high', as in the Greek adjective makednos or the noun mekos. The genealogy of eponymous ancestors which Hesiod recorded […] has a bearing on the question of Greek speech. First, Hesiod made Macedon a brother of Magnes; as we know from inscrip¬tions that the Magnetes spoke the Aeolic dialect of the Greek language, we have a predisposition to suppose that the Macedones spoke the Aeolic dialect. Secondly, Hesiod made Macedon and Magnes first cousins of Hellen's three sons - Dorus, Xouthus, and Aeolus-who were the found¬ers of three dialects of Greek speech, namely Doric, Ionic, and Aeolic. Hesiod would not have recorded this relationship, unless he had believed, probably in the seventh century, that the Macedones were a Greek¬ speaking people.
The next evidence comes from Persia. At the turn of the sixth century the Persians described the tribute-paying peoples of their province in Europe, and one of them was the `yauna takabara', which meant `Greeks wearing the hat'. There were Greeks in Greek city-states here and there in the province, but they were of various origins and not distinguished by a common hat. However, the Macedonians wore a dis¬tinctive hat, the kausia. We conclude that the Persians believed the Macedonians to be speakers of Greek. Finally, in the latter part of the fifth century a Greek historian, Hellanicus, visited Macedonia and modi¬fied Hesiod's genealogy by making Macedon not a cousin, but a son of Aeolus, thus bringing Macedon and his descendants firmly into the Aeolic branch of the Greek-speaking family. Hesiod, Persia, and Hellanicus had no motive for making a false statement about the language of the Macedonians, who were then an obscure and not a powerful people.
Their independent testimonies should be accepted as conclusive (N.G.L. Hammond, The Macedonian State, p.12-13).
The evidence above shows that the ancient Macedonians were one of the Hellenic groups of tribes speaking a Greek dialect and having the same institutions as the Spartans and especially the Greeks of the Western group of nations.
The fallacies emanated from the FYROM and its diaspora are therefor strongly repudiated.

The curse of this site with no edit facility - 400 should be 4000 as you and I both wrote it.

GMS - creative Greek mathematics again, I fear.

<<Macedonia has been Greek since 400 years >>, you say.

BC 498 (accession of King Alexander I of Macedon) is the earliest date that most scholars accept to be the start of Greek influence in Macedonia.

So 498+2009 according to my abacus is 2507 years, not 4000. Rounded, this comes to "two and a half thousand".

Do you confirm my calculation ?

This sort of pseudo-mathematics reminds me of what Greek waiters [...]

Read the full comment used to do, rounding up a restaurant bill for 2500 drachmas up to 4000 (plus the tip, of course). Since the introduction of the euro they seem to have found this more difficult.

To Jastinian again: who told you Macedonia never belongs to Greece? Your grandfather?

"Macedonia never belong to greece"

But Macedonia is already in Greece and greek since 4000 years... I do not know what you are talking about.

To you''greek macedonia supremacy' by your chosen name i can see you are ultra national fascist greek .Macedonia never belong to greece .In two years you are going to loose the part of Macedonia you are making all the bull about ...

To Koinos Nous: sorry, but the process you describe about the "hellenization" of Macedonia was the same for many cities/kingdoms which are today unified under the Greek State (Macedonia included). And as far I know, any scholar described historically Athens like a non-greek entity.

Following your logic, we can start to seek the origins of Athenians and discover that before to be Greeks and called Athenians, Athenians were in fact not Greeks in a very antic times, etc.

No, every scholar knows and recognizes that Macedonia started to be called and recognized [...]

Read the full comment as a kingdom/state when Greeks create Macedonia. Before Greeks, Macedonia was not historically the Macedonia we know. Macedonians were one of the numberous greek tribes

By the way, I think you still miss the point what historically being Greek is all about and I am too lazy to repeat it again. Distinguish Greece from Greeks and you will start a good approach of the problem.

The paradox is you said that some greek colonies (which ones? you do not mention them, be precised) have been assimilated to Macedonians. But Macedonians have been started to be recognized as "Macedonians" under the Greek influence, and not before.

Also the lack of evidence, I mean "pre-greek" macedonian (if this adjective even means something) artefacts, archeological traces, have nothing to do with a non-alphabet language. Of course, there is any trace of this macedonian language, because it never existed... I do not understand why you, a wise man, believe in that.

Macedonia was Macedonia, because of Greeks and the greek language. Same thing for many greek cities...

To the ignorant Dr Oz, I think what you said is the case for Skopjans and... for all the countries of the world.

So your argument is weak, really weak...

To laughing G.M.S., my only response to you is that according to your history, modern Greeks are just hellenised Turks, Slavs and Albanians! So how can you modern Greeks laugh at anything and try to be righteous towards Macedonians.

This (in summary) is the accepted view of early Macedonia in Northern Europe:

<< Macedonia was undeveloped until the 6th century BC; tribes living there still kept the relics of primitive society. But after the 6th century Greek influence began. Numerous Greek colonies on the shores of the northern Aegean Sea eventually came together to rule a newly-created rural state : Macedonia (it was never a city-state).
In 495 BC the new king Alexander I began his rule. He was nicknamed "Phil-hellene" for encouraging, supporting and promoting Greek culture in his country. He learned [...]

Read the full comment Greek, was fond of travelling to Athens and other Hellenic city-states, and invited Greek architects and writers to visit Macedonia. His main objective was to become a Hellene, while Greeks always considered Macedonians to be semi-barbarians.
The state was ruled according to Greek law, and the Macedonian language disappeared from official use (it had no alphabet of its own, so was only rarely written down, using the Greek alphabet.) Since then, the Macedonian kings and aristocracy / governing class spoke only Greek, while ordinary people, especially in northern regions of the country, continued using their native non-Hellenic Macedonian tongue. >>

Not sure, Art, that this entirely squares with your view of things. The main reason some scholars think Macedonia was entirely Greek is that it is only Greek artefacts and inscriptions in the Greek language that survive from there (the ancient Macedonians couldn't write things down, as they had no alphabet.)

This is a bit like present-day Africa, where some of the tribal languages have no written form. So the native Africans use French (with great success: Afrique Francophone uses better French than in some parts of France).

But this does not mean that they ARE French, any more than it did with the ancient Macedonians being Greek because they used the Greek language. The analogy, I think, is a reasonably exact one.

I share the same point of view of Valeri. The misunderstanding between nationality and geography is the key of the Macedonian problem.

To Valeri who cannot talk without insulting and speaking with hellenophobic content, let's just ignore him. He just proves how Skopjans are poorly educated people and why they do not deserve to be in the EU...

To you Valeri and Art...Macedonia is and was a country and the indigenous people are Macedonian.I thought you faceless fascist knew that......To you periclis greece.. f.......of to greece you have nothing to do whit Macedonia

Exactly right Art,
macedonia is a geographic term not a nationality.
Those who are attempting to turn it into a nationality, are perpetuation the Yugoslav divisiveness that led to wars and genocide.
Gruev (ski) is a product of Tito, not Alexander...

It will be published officially very very soon -
so do not slander each other as the decision has been already made.
We are educated accordingly to believe what is historically correct & true.
The only credible facts / proof available is recorded in museums / texts. Ancient Macedonian history -culture language arts has been proven & verified with WRITINGS found as GREEK worldwide & accepted as such for over 3000 years todate.
Identity is who we are / represent / how we are perceived as such.

Can [...]

Read the full comment one group of people claim to be Macedonian?

Absolutely NO!!!!!!!!!

Everyone has there own culture & history & therefore unless any NEW CREDIBILE EVIDENCE comes to light then Ancient & Modern Macedonian history & culture & language is recorded TODAY as GREEK.

People living in parts of BULGARIA ALBANIA FYROM GREECE today live on Ancient Macedonian recorded land ( by Greek maps )& within borders & speak a variety of languages.
NOBODY TODAY SPEAKS / LIVES / ANCIENT MACEDONIAN & HAS ITS CULTURE - PERIOD!!!!!!!!!!!

Peter - Have I got News For You ? Firstly, Byron died a very long time ago, and Churchill more than a good few years now. Today's Brits don't live either in Byron's or in Churchill's world.

A recent "Sun" survey in Britains's largest-selling daily newspaper came up with the following mass-market British perceptions about Greece:

Capital city - Nicosia
Best beaches and nightlife - Corfu
Local airport - Larnaca or Skiathos
Language - English "everybody speaks it"
Topography - lots of islands
[...]

Read the full comment /> Location - island/s south of Turkey
Head of State - Archbishop Makarios
Flag - blue and white something
Currency - local Pound.

This certainly fits one Greek-speaking country, but it ain't Hellas !

ABC1 UK travellers who go to Kephallonia would have a much more accurate picture, of course. They all seem to have thought they were in Albania !

We are all Not Quite Yet in a United Europe....

jastinian a very macedonian name,so you think you are macedonian tell me whatt realy means macedonia you now???????????????propagant is not history you must live back the tito fantasma,and too live the future.the name of the king of macedonia it wass,fillipos,and not fillipofsi,alexandros and not alexandrofsi,the macedonian speak greece and not your slavic diallect,is very simple visit the vergina too see the realy macedonian.if you never stop too steal or history olways we have problem,you must now this.

To Dr Oz: I am always laughing when someone is trying desperately (and without have any historical knowledge) to distinguish Greeks and Macedonians like two different races...

This is the ultimate paradox. I said hundred times there that Macedonians are just like Athenians, Spartans, Rhodians, etc., that means greek tribes, greek people. By "Greeks" I mean they remind the Europeans nowadays which are composed by multiple nationalities. At the antic times til today, Athenians, Spartans, Macedonians are Greeks because they share(d) the same value, they are brother people : their language, religion, politics, history are/were the [...]

Read the full comment same and unified under one adjective > "greek".

So I am laughing even more when some guys are saying Greeks have invaded Macedonia and killed Macedonians... That means Greeks have killed themselves in somekind of collective suicide. Really ridiculous and a total non-sense.

Regarding Skopje, they are not Macedonians, they have nothing historically/politically speaking with Alexander and its heritage. If Macedonians they are, that is because of an historical/geographical extrapolation. Everyone knows it.

A correction addressed to common-sense below. You are probably right that no one in Britain knows where Macedonia is or more likely couldnt care less. However re Greece and Corfu - the Brits have had a long standing love affair with Greece (Lord Byron for example and Winston Churchill - hands off Greece Stalin)) and even nearly asked Greece to "join" the British Empire. Thousands travel to Greece (and Corfu) each year for their hols (dont think many go to Macedonia).Corfu was British and the Brits gave it back to the Greeks. So please - we do know where these [...]

Read the full comment places are

Georgio certainly has a point - what he says reflects precisely what is said in the more-informed UK media (the less-informed UK media don't know where Macedonia is anyway, and probably not Greece either, except for Corfu, which to them is -of course- in Albania.) But what Georgio says is also mirrored in other Western media too, outside the UK.

In short, Greece's public image internationally over this is going to take a right battering.

Let's start by looking at what Greece got RIGHT, and what Greece got WRONG.

[...]

Read the full comment /> First, Greece registered the Star/Sun of Vergina under the WIPO (World Intellectual Property Organisation) rules in the 1990s.

This forced Macedonia to change its flag virtually immediately.

Therefore Greece got this RIGHT.

But it then provoked Macedonia into taking the name issue to the International Court of Justice. Greece's lawyers then let Macedonia put their case first.

Greece got this WRONG.

No wonder Athens now nervously awaits the ICJ proceedings in January 2010. It is well over 50% likely that it will lose the case, even if only on procedural grounds.

Greece got that WRONG again.

Meanwhile, the WIPO link to remind us of the one time that Greece got it RIGHT:

http://www.wipo.int/lisbon/en/

The Greek government should register Megalos Alexandros / Alex the Great and his historical empire as "Intellectual Property" of Greece . This would stop Skopje doing stupid things like erecting statues and re-naming airports, and would also bring in international opinion on the Greek side (which currently it isn't).

And this would be a respected international body doing this, not just Greece on its own.

Good idea for Greece ? RIGHT.

Are you listening, Kyrie Papandreou ? (Or do you want to employ a really effective international PR Company, which might at this point be Rather A Good Idea ?)

By the way - just to be neutral in my comments - Gruevski is a right prat who is about as effective an international ambassador as was George W. Bush. In other words - dreadful !

Why do you Greeks always talk about Alexander, is that all the semi-Greek heroes you have. Since you are so stuck on history, why don't you give back the lands to the Pelagians who you stole it from and rename it We are Fools!! This might help in your rehabilitation from analyzing history in such a corrupt way!!

No Human rights for its minorities!
Provoking its neighbours!
Threatening a small virtually unarmed country five times smaller!
Abusing its position as a EU and NATO member to achive its goal; a one sided self invented name issue.
greece has credibility?
What credibility?

Valeri you are the other ultra national bran washed bulgarian but you pretend to be somebody .bulgaria has part of Macedonia .There is not such a slav , greek or bulgarian Macedonia. Its only MACEDONIA

Jastian,

You are Macedonians as much as the Turks are Byzantines.
You were Bulgarians until Tito brainwashed you and changed the endings of your names - now you are out to infect the rest of the region with the stuff that killed 250,000 Yugos in the 90s.
Macedonia was not a Slavic entity. Slavs moved to the region 900 years after Alexander.
The Greeks are right to be upset at this clear theft of heritage....

Hey, lets change Alexander's name too and then you'll truly match! [...]

Read the full comment
Alexandrijski!
Isn't this just beautiful? The sound of it: Alexandrijski.... even Gruev (ski) couldn't think of it;)))

To you so self named ' truemacedonia' , you are an ultra national brain washed greek. Macedonia has a name and greece has a part of Macedonia what was given in 1913. How can say Macedonia is targeting greece's culture history and land. Before 1913 Macedonia has never belong to greece. F.... you Veto .Macedonia put back the Star of Vergina on you flag...

No, Greece will not loose any credibility, because Greece already made sure at the NATO summit what the name dispute conflict is all about and many countries backed it. Its long-time european partners will do it again.
Many countries as France for example already told they will back Greece for what they think is a "fair" cause. The stability of the South Balkans depends of this issue. They are perfectly aware about the problem is just about a name, but about political issues.

On the contrary, FYROM is in a very bad position... It [...]

Read the full comment made any effort to solve the name dispute since the NATO summit, showing any "real" good will to put an end to it. And this cannot be unpassed.

The positive report of EU for FYROM is just a way of pressure to solve the problem with a clear deadline.

Also that FYROM decided today to remove its "abstract/fake copied vergina" flag for something modern without a "star" is already a sign of a future diplomatic loss...

FYROM has to understand this may be Greece's dispute with them, but when trying to join world organizations to which Greece is a member, it becomes an international dispute, hence the UN talks.

For the few on this forum that dont quite get it... NO COMPROMISE, NO MEMBERSHIP. Greece learned how commited FYROM was after they let you in to the UN. 18 years later, still no compromise, but instead now you are targeting Greece's culture, history and land and fueling nationalism on both sides. Let you in to EU and NATO? For what? Why should [...]

Read the full comment they if you dont respect the agreement in the first place? ICJ court case - means nothing. You were allowed to dozens of organizations, with Greece's approval, throughout the years. NATO's veto came because of the propogandist, instrasigent and irrendendist methods your PM Gruev has used. So VETO to FYROM unless they learn what it means to be "Union".

If Greece is going to wave its Veto around like some sort of virility symbol, it is going to lose its remaining credibility with other EU Member States (which wasn't that great to start off with !) And in the post-Lisbon world this can badly backfire.

Far better - as I posted elsewhere - to go down the WIPO route, as Greece did with the Star of Vergina issue in the 1990s. (I hope that Athens has kept the same good lawyer !)

FYROM cancelled the trilateral meeting. Not surprised at all, since they are very afraid and cannot control anything in this cold situation...
They have to face a second powerful VETO in a couple of weeks.

Still a pain in the .... for all
neighbors