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koinos nous you like too speak on greece?

Still not clear what on earth he means (and putting it in CAPITAL LETTERS doesn't make it any clearer !) Maybe he should put it in Greek - I could probably work that out from my knowledge of Europedes.

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Well, GMS, I'm not asking you - I'm just trying to ask Periclis what on earth he means. To which so far no reply.

If you asked me, I would be ok with Slavomacedonia or Macedoslavia and Greece too I think. Albanians not unfortunately...

Periclis - no clearer now, I'm afraid . Put it in Greek (or Bulgarian) and we will all get out dictionaries out and translate it into English for ourselves

Merci d'avance - efkharisto - blagodarya

HE IS SLAVS HE LIVE IN PART [SMALL]OF MACEDONIA,AND IS DIFRENT FROM OR MACEDONIA I THING FEAR.

With respect, Periclis , what on earth do you mean ? Dhen katalavano

more fear name is slavomacedonia

Yes, I am among the believers who hope they both reach a compromise soon. Diplomatic sources are saying "Republic of Northern Macedonia" is already accepted by FYROM. But the problem remains about the national & international use of this compound name which FYROM is not willing to accept. Also the Macedonian identity and language which were not discussed in clear terms, are obstacles too.

So we are still in a tricky situation, but there are moves (simulated or real ones?) from both parts indeed before the december summmit.
So let's hope this dispute will be over, because it cannot go on forever.
As Greek, I accept the use of "Macedonia", but only with a geographic qualifier. What I do not accept is FYROM proclaiming itself as unique Macedonians and separating Greeks from Macedonians.

GMS - well, we agree on that at least !

It's blatantly obvious to anybody who can read a map that there is one newly-independent country to the north presently called "Macedonia", and one province of Greece to the south also called "Macedonia" (at least since 1989 !), so the geographical qualifier of "north" and "south" seems to make simple sense.

Hopefully Gruevski the Foolish and Obstinate and Papandreou the Myopic but Successful will see this the same way too, and all our/their problems will then be solved !

That is true indeed. So now I understand why "Republic Of New Macedonia" would be historically a wrong name. "North" Macedonia looks more appropriated to our present situation.

The answer to your question, GMS, is that the present fYRoM bit was called "Macedonia Salutaris" by the Romans from c. 300 AD onwards, and the present Aegean Macedonian part was called "Macedonia Prima" at the same time.

This point has been posted on this site many, many times, and can be verified from any authoritative Roman-era encyclopedia, so I am at a loss (aporeo) to understand why you question this now.

To Koinos Nous:

"It's historically wrong to all it "New Macedonia", as it was called Macedonia in Roman times".

What do you mean by "it" was called? Can you be more precised with "it" please?

It's historically wrong to all it "New Macedonia", as it was called Macedonia in Roman times. "Northern Macedonia" is more accurate and less historically offensive.

Beyond that, you do realise, of course, don't you, that the Commission can start up pre-accession negotiations regardless, on an "AD REFERENDUM" basis. (This formula is used quite often by the Commission to keep things moving despite any threat of "veto" or blockage by another member-state.

So if I were Gruevski, I wouldn't be too worried. Unfortunately, Gruevski is NOT me, and doesn't know the EU procedures anything like as well as I do (as I worked in Brussels for eight years !)

Even less fortunately, Gruevski shows every sign of being a naive idiot in his approach to international relations. He should never have upset the Bulgarians as well as the Greeks.

Instead, in cooperation with the Bulgarians he should have imposed a road blockade on Greece, preventing 68% of its import/export trade from taking place. This would have been feasible and effective. It would best have been done before Bulgarian EU accession and while his fellow-idiot Bakoyannis was still Greek Foreign Minister, but it would still be possible (with care) now.

Any government always caves in more quickly to economic pressure than anything else, and I'm sure Greece would be no exception.

Fully agree with you, Koinos Nous. But I just read this article from the Focus Information Agency, regarding the last meeting of Vassilakis and Nimetz and I have a strong feeling that Greece seems to be in a "win-game" position to impose its own conditions to FYROM:

"According to media reports, Greek side has gone in extreme at the recent meeting with Nimetz, demanding in addition to a compound name, which it insisted should be 'Republic Northern Macedonia' or 'Republic New Macedonia', for it to be used in both international and internal communication, as well as in the relations with 127 countries that have recognized the Republic of Macedonia under its constitutional name.
The new Greek Government also insisted for the adjective 'Northern' or 'New' to be used for the Macedonian nation, maps and instruction books in the future to not use Macedonian toponyms for villages and cities in Greece, as well as altering of the international code MK and Internet domain mk".

>>>Papandreou's government stance towards FYROM has hardened a lot compared to one of Karamanlis, that is a fact and the recent cancellation of the trilateral meeting under the UN auspices by FYROM seems to indicate they are in a weak and questionnable position about their euro-atlantic dream...

Let's look at what Greece has got RIGHT so far, and what Greece has got WRONG.

First, Greece registered the Star/Sun of Vergina under the WIPO (World Intellectual Property Organisation) rules in the 1990s.

This forced Macedonia to change its flag immediately.

Therefore Greece got this RIGHT.

But it then provoked Macedonia to take the name issue to the International Court of Justice (ICJ). It then let Macedonia put its case first.

Greece got this WRONG.

Greece now nervously awaits the re-art of ICJ proceedings in January 2010. It is well over 50% likely that it will lose the case, even if only on procedural grounds.

Greece got that WRONG again.

Meanwhile, here's the WIPO link to remind us of the one time that Greece got it RIGHT:

http://www.wipo.int/lisbon/en/

Greece should register Megalos Alexandros / Alex the Great and his historical empire as WIPO "Intellectual Property" of Greece . This would stop Skopje doing stupid things like erecting statues and re-naming airports, and would also bring in international opinion on the Greek side (which currently it isn't).

Also, this would be a respected international body doing this, not just Greece on its own.

Good idea for Greece ? RIGHT.

Are you listening, Kyrie Papandreou ?

Sorry - that last one ending in "Lwowek Slaski" was from me, not from the elusive default "1" !

Valeri - I agree with you and GMS up to a point, but since a fair amount of blood has been shed elsewhere in former Jugoslavija by various republics ridding themselves of the Jugoslav/Yugoslav name, I doubt your idea would find favour anywhere except maybe in Greece. (I suppose we could re-designate the town of Veles as "Titov Veles", though, to provide one historical link !)

I don't think the "-ski" suffix is particularly Polish - it also occurs in Russian and Czech. It's merely a 'possessive adjective" replacing the 'possessive' masculine genitive plural of "-ov" (which also exists in Russian, Czech and Polish too, only the Poles spell it "-ow" with an accent on the 'o'. The Silesian town name of "Lwowek Slaski" includes all these elements - you get a prize if you can identify them all !)

Can say it better. I fully agree with you, Valeri, even if I doubt a "yugoslavic" compound is included in the last UN name proposals.

"To refer constantly to the old History of Macedonia is unfruitful for both parts, Greece and FYROM."

Agree, but there is a third party here - Bulgaria.

Tito made serious effort to invent the new Macedonian nationality, as means of solidifying his hold on the land, thinking that Yugoslavia is for ever. He changed their names, from the Bulgarian "ov" to the absurd for the area Polish sounding "ski", he even introduced changes to their language. Now this byproduct of the dysfunctional concoction called Yugoslavia and Tito's dictatorship is coming back to infect the region with their ethnic/territorial malady they've been dealing with all over that made up state.

I think it is very important that the new country of Makedonia has something of Yugoslavia in their name, as a reminder of their cultural connection...

To Epaminondas: I agree this reflection about the Macedonia history is necessary to understand better what the present dispute is all about.

But, what counts now and we have to focuse on, is the actual map and the situation of Macedonia today. It would not be serious to return and speculate about maps from 1916... To refer constantly to the old History of Macedonia is unfruitful for both parts, Greece and FYROM. It will bring arguments and arguments which will not be representative, at the end, of the configuration of Macedonia today. It will not accelerate the process to find a new name.

A solution has to be found with the situation of Macedonia now and it cannot go on forever.

And as you recognized it clearly, one part of Macedonia was Greek and is Greek today. So FYROM has to do this same move and recognize that Macedonia is not only theirs (an absurd thing), because here is the main problem. From a region they wanted to create a state, but they forgot this region is and has never been not all theirs.
And here is where they have to show respect to Greece. I am sure most of FYROmians would agree with that.

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Valeri - many thanks indeed for the link to the 1880 German Balkan map (I had much earlier posted a scan of a 1916 German Balkan map in paper form, which I bought in Krakow in 1966, but it tells exactly the same ethnic linguistic story as yours. I think Aries may have a copy of my posting.)

Basically, at that time (probably up until 1922/26 with the Pontus evacuations of the Greek population who were re-settled in Macedonia) the situation was that the Greek ethnic population populated Thessaloniki and the Khalkidic peninsula, but north of that was Bulgarian-speaking, except for a few Greek-and Turkish-speaking enclaves.

This "northern territory" which at that time was mapped as Bulgarian by language and ethnicity includes most of present-day Greek Macedonia, and much of todays ex-Jugoslav Makedonija. In other words, they were all Bulgarians to the impartial German mappers and recorders.

By 1916 - on my map - virtually nothing had changed.

Conclusion: even less than a century ago, the territory of both "Macedonias" was - except for the Greeks on the coastal strip - mainly Bulgarian, with a few enclaves of Vlachs, Greeks, and Turks.

This doesn't fit either the Gruevski view of the region, nor the Papandreou version either.

Any historical conclusion that offends both the historical grievance partis in equal measure, is probably correct. (Hegel, 1895). This appears to be one of them.

"Cons - a good point ! I hadn't thought of that angle. So technically, if Greece insists that the rest of the world adopt a particular nomenclature - and none other - then Greece is guilty of "cultural imperialism"."

Not really the case, Epaminondas. The main argument provided by the greek governement to EU and the rest of the world about the name dispute is officially not cultural, but territorial. Clear territorial claims that were openly hinted by Gruevski during his travel in Australia, referring to Pirin, Aegeans Macedonians, etc.
So everyone and the EU of course are aware of it. If Gruevski was more intelligent, he should have closed his mouth about his dream of a Unified Macedonia, and instead tried to convert this problem into strict cultural issues.

I don't think R of Macedonia-Skopje is the solution. In effect it is just like the dual name proposal. That doesn't solve anything. You guys seem to selectively forget that this isn't just about the name "Macedonia" and its heritage. Who ever thinks he/she is racially pure, that person is an idiot. That goes for everyone including Greeks. The educated world knows the history. It's mostly about fictitious revisionist history that may ultimately fuel expansionist aspirations. Also, I think some type of qualifier, geographic or otherwise, is rather appropriate. New Macedonia would suffice. I think we can even swallow North Macedonia. Regarding the true classification of their language, by virtue of EU-grade institutions, that will be corrected in due time.

Epami,
this is a Wiki ethnographic map of BG, done by Germans in 1880 - before Tito created the "Macedonian" nationality in order to solidify his hold on that land.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Ethnicity-Central-Balkans-1880.jpg

Cons - a good point ! I hadn't thought of that angle. So technically, if Greece insists that the rest of the world adopt a particular nomenclature - and none other - then Greece is guilty of "cultural imperialism".

Nice point, indeed. (Of course this doesn't cover WTO issues, but Greece has only WTO / WIPO protected the Star of Vergina, not the name "Macedonia".)

Sometime - somewhere - some lawyers are going to make a lot of money out of this....I bet they're based in Athens already !

butt a thing the more fear is slavomacedonia,you are slavs,butt you live in macedonia area [part small]and then is very simple,slavomacedonia langoits,slavomacedonia nacionality.

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Gruevski has already suggested the name, Republic of Macedonia-Skopje. Why is this name not acceptable to Papandreou? The Greeks can call their country, in an abbreviated form, R of Skopje and their language Skopjean. The rest of the world, Macedonian.

No, if FYROM will rename his country Republic of Northern Macedonia (I am at 90% sure of it), Greece will not have to rename his region "Southern Macedonia". That was never mentionned in any of the UN proposals, because the main problem comes from FYROM's use of the name, and obviously not from the Greek legitime/historical use of the name...

The very best consequence is Greece will be the ONE to keep the name of his region as "Macedonia", because it is the REAL AND ORIGINAL "Macedonia", where Alexander and the Macedonian dynasty (which were Greeks) were born. So "Republic of Northern Macedonia" will mean immediate recognition of the (Greek) "Macedonia" supremacy.

So now FYROM is trying to avoid this (since they want to be the one to be called Macedonians...) with sending this case to the international court arbitration like Croatia/Slovenia did with their sea border dispute. A thing that Greece will obviously not, since it already reaches a good compromise with Nimetz proposals.

All is up to FYROM now to decide if they want to enter the EU with a de facto change of their name or not. I am afraid no escape is possible.

It is good they talked,but the name Macedonia belongs to the Macedonians.Former Burma changed its name to Myanmar,did the UN objected?People have the right to call themselfs what they want,and no one can impose a name people dont want.Macedonia wants to be called Macedonia,they are Macedonians.The fear Greece is talking about is the none recognition of the Macedonian minority in Greece.They are terified of losing the history that never belonged to them.This absurd claim by Greece started in 1913 and reasontly in 1991 when Macedonia declaired independance from Yugoslavia like the rest of the federated States of that union.Greece had recognised Macedonia ever since they both were trading partners before the split of this country under the name of Federated Socialist Republic of Macedonia.Why is Macedonia a threat to Greece?A simple answer is;none recognition of the Macedonian minority within their border.If the Republic of Macedonia accepts "Northern Macedonia,will Greece re-name Northern Greece to Sothern Macedonia?It is only fitting,is it not?

I am Turkish my mother side is greek, they come from thessaloniki, is thessaloniki in greece or macedonia? I hope its greek i would rather have greek ancestry then macedonian

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I am unsure if the negociations about the name can be achieved by december . Skopje's authorities are saying no, the deadline seems too short for it.
That is why Greece may have no other choice than to use his veto in december. Let's wait and see...

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can i remind everyone that this is an English-language publication?
Please stick to English in your comments as well.

Oh and erhm, impersonating the moderators WILL get you banned without warning!

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I hope that Gruevski understood some things from this meeting!!Papadreou made it clear this time face to face.I think this is good for both of us just to know what is coming.Anyway beside the serius part,im curius a priminister of a country isnt he supposed to speak at least the basic English?I mean find the teacher of Gruevski and sent him to prison.I hate english too i never liked this language and i m not good to it,but we are talking about a priminister here i mean its redicilus!!!

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Yet the talks were described as 'tough and frank'; probably Gruevski was getting his wings clipped for some of his antics in public of late; he only got to power by playing to radical, nationalist fantasies: but which for a long time have been on a collision course with the political real.

THE TRUTH IS AS FOLLOWS:

ANA-MPA: Papandreou clarifies Greek stance on name issue at a meeting with Gruevski

Athens, October 29 (MIA) - Prime Minister George Papandreou at the first meeting with Macedonian Premier Nikola Gruevski on Thursday in Brussels clarified the Greek positions on the name issue and the possibility for the northern neighbour to start the European Union accession negotiations, the national news agency ANA-MPA reported.
According to Greek diplomatic sources, Papandreou said that Greece wished to have a leading role in the Balkans, particularly in the accession course of all countries of southeastern Europe, which he believed should be completed in 2014, a year that marks the 100 anniversary of the beginning of the WWI.
- Greece, according to the same diplomatic sources, desires in this framework to promote the accession of FYROM as well, but insists on the national 'red line', and places as the first and essential precondition the settlement of FYROM's name issue, ANA-MPA said, adding that it was categorically stressed that the solution should be a name with a geographical qualifier for all uses. lk/fd/21:33

Now that the two prime ministers are talking and have come to their senses, the name issue will soon be resolved and you fanatics on both sides will have to chew on something else, like finding a job!!