Congratulations, Periclis, you have now mastered the Question Mark "?". Well done.

You might next try mastering the argument. Basically, ancient Macedonia spoke Greek just as today's Republic of Congo speaks French (and very good French too): the native people had no written alphabet of their own. But this does not mean that today's Congolese are ethnically French, any more than it meant that the ancient Macedonians were ethnically Greek.

So the rest of your argument rather falls. Nobody is stealing anything in Macedonia, any more than the Congo is stealing part of France.

why E.U presing you for solution,if you realy are macedonian????????????fyromanian whatt means macedonia you now??????????????be prout like slavs,you lose energy too make the lies true and the propagant realy history.macedonian you born and you born slavs,be sirius,you think all world is idiot?????????in the yugoslavia part you was pacet stealer,today you are history stealer,you never STOP TOO BE STEALER.

Greece cleverly registered the Star/Sun of Vergina for Greece under the WIPO (World Intellectual Property Organisation) procedures some years ago.

This forced Macedonia to change its flag virtually immediately.

This action by Greece worked brilliantly. Unhappily, its subsequent actions on the "name" issue were less skilfully handled, and we all nervously await the ICJ proceedings in January 2010.

Greece probably got that one badly wrong, not least in letting Macedonia start the case and having first turn in the proceedings...

Here's the WIPO link:

http://www.wipo.int/lisbon/en/

The Greek government should register Megalos Alexandros / Alex the Great and all that goes with him as "Intellectual Property" of Greece . It is unlikely they could protect the "Macedonia" name itself under WIPO rules, but pretty likely that they could stop Skopje doing silly things like erecting statues and re-naming airports.

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Ok,I read these comments and cannot understand why you are denying me the right to call myself what truly I am.First of all, My ethnicity is Macedonian wheather I come from the Republic of Macedonia or Pirin or Egej or for that matter Small Prespa located in south east Albania.Dont you think I have the same right as everyone else on this site to call myself who realy I am?For all of you politicians and pseudo historians,My ethnicity is Macedonian.I cannot change it to Greek,Bulgarian,jewish,Chinese or Egyptian.Here is what I can change;My religion,citizenship,my name from Peter to Piere,or even to Ismail if I go with the muslin religion,but you cannot change your ethnicity by any means.Dont you people understand this?

Whether the Macedonians in Greece are Bulgarians, Vlachs, Greeks, or Yugoslav supporters it makes no difference. We can all be Macedonians in our own right and still not lose any face among each other. In macedonia many of our Youth are beginning to accept the status quo as something our leadership have created with their opposite camps. The diaspora will always continue jingoistic positions because it serves their distortions of antiquisation and actively ngating our proud Slavic heritage. The new Think tank DEMOS in Macedonia have provided the youth with a platform at all university campuses to voice their concerns. Its time to look forward and away from nationalistic positions. Gruevski has to stop making excuses for his failings and start looking for direction. he needs to listen to the Macedonian Youth. Its time to move forward, a change is in the air. Northern Macedonia is excellent step forward. We keep our name and identity without losing any of our Slavic pride.

Niko, thanks, but we all know that already.

As "Valeri" well said elsewhere on this site, the issue is not en ethnic one, nor a historical one relating to ancient history, but simply a geographical one.

The people who are there now are a sovereign state, and have a right to choose their own name. It's as simple as that.

(The Americans have done this for years, as the citizens of Macedonia (Illinois) will confirm, as will those of St Petersburg (Florida), and Athens (Ohio). Balkan attitudes and "ancient memories" are no longer appropriate to the modern age.)

Kiro Gligorov your former president has already said that macedonians have nothing to do with ancient macedonia.

When Peter says :

<< Just remember 1922-1926 the exchange between Turkish Christians and Turks who have been setled in the Macedonian land.Thousands of Macedonians have been expelled from their land just to accomodate the transfer of these Christian Turks >>

....this is probably the real "skeleton in the cupboard" for the Greek government, and not the name issue.

The 1924-26 "population movement" (aka "deportations") between Pontian Greeks / Christian Turks and displaced non-Greeks living in the northern part of Greek Macedonia is still just within living memory, and we all know that Balkan memories are long anyway.

The present Greek government is the "successor state" to its predecessor of 1924/26, not least as it still explicitly recognises the Treaty of Lausanne that its predecessor signed (notably as regards the ethnic Turkish minority elsewhere in Northern Greece - I think around Xanthe.)

A nasty issue to re-emerge; Peter is quite right to raise it now, though, as if he doesn't somebody else will.

The EU and UN have no right to dictate to a sovreign State to change its name.What the UN did to the Republic of Macedonia in 1993 was not mandating to change its constitutional name.The real problem in 1993 was that the docialists caved in to the Greek demand.Today,we also see the same pattern of the Socio-Demcrats who are left over from the communist era are trying to sell Macedonia for their own ends "money"as is evident of Frckovski,Crvenkovski and their clique.Read Gligorovs memorials.Macedonians call themselfs Macedonians because they live in Macedonian teritories,period!

Observer,We the Macedonians in Northern Greece are the indigenous people,not the Pontious or you Greeks.Just remember 1922-1926 the exchange between Turkish Christians and Turks who have been setled in the Macedonian land.Thousands of Macedonians have been expelled from their land just to accomodate the transfer of these Christian Turks.Greeces refusal to recognise the Macedonian minority in Greece is the obstacle of the recognision of the Republic of Macedonia.Remember,if and when Greece recognises the minorities,they will lose the Macedonian history,and for Greece,this will be hard to swallow.

Macedonia Greek - quite right. Diaspora is major problem everywhere - think life is as it was 100 years ago in the old country. Polish diaspora is no better - look at Chicago Poles. Don't even speak the language properly any more, but they vote as one ethnic bloc.

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Sasha if the Republic of Northern
Macedonia youth is as pragmatic as yourself, then the solution is in hand . you are one hundred % correct that the diaspora living in Canada and Australia are the biggest stumbling block.why dont they come and live in the Republic.instead they believe the fairy stories that their grand mothers told them.with people like you in the Republik of Northern Macedonia i see a lot of progress. Congratulations on your intellectual approach.

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Michael - lovely idea, but what about Serbia and Albania ?

The "ia" in the proper Cyrillic alphabet is like a capital R turned the other way round, so could this not be a one-word name for all the countries concerned ?

The only solution is to call the country IA because we will never agree on what to put in front. Most countries in the region end on IA (Bulgaria, Romania, Serbia, Croatia, Albania, Italia, etc) so we already know that the country's name will end on IA. Since we will never agree on what the first part of the name should be, let's just leave it at Ia. It sounds nice as well: "I'm ian !". To be fare, some other countries should change their name as well - Greece should not be allowed to have the same name as an American musical starring John Travolta and should change its name back to Hellada. Bulgaria is an offensive name, suggesting the citizens are all Bulls. They could keep 'garia' however. Romania is more complicated - it would be theft of Italian history to suggest that they are the real Romans, and not the Italians. Therefore they can be called only "Ia", although that would put them in competition with the "Ia" of Macedonia. But we could call Romania North Ia and Macedonia South Ia. Finally, Croatia is a unjustified name since, as everybody knows, Croat means Cravatte in Croat, which means neck tie in English. This is definitely also a name which is usurping the history of neck ties. We could call this country West Ia.

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As a Serb I love Macedonians especially their music and wish the best for them although I do not think it was smart to betray Serbs who are the only people in the balkans who have no claim on them despite the fact that Macedonia was part of southern Serbia before Tito. I find it funny that the Greeks can stall the progress of Macedonia over a "name." It's just a name, no one is claming Greek territory but Serbia is being forced to give up actually territory...Kosovo. The Macedonians live in the geographical area called Macedonian and they have the right to call themselves whatever they want. Most Americans and Australians are English but they call themselves Americans and Australians respectively. Greece needs to let go.

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Dear Elena,Tito was not even conceived when Macedonia existed.Further, the documents in Turkey show the Macedonians owing land,but funny does not show a Greek or Bulgarian owing land in Macedonia before 1913.I am Macedonian, and just because your interest is not in Macedonias history,it does not mean I am not interested in my own history.Who are you to tell me who and what I am?I have the same rights as you to declair my ethnicity.

To Shasko:Postom prashuvash dali govoram po Makedonski,eve ti mojot odgovor.Ja sum Makedonka od Egejskiot del na Makedonja od Prespa,Lerinsko.Ti Bulgarche,eli(Blgarin)Pishuvash na Makedonska azbuka Kirilica.Nemoj da odgovorish sto Kirilica et Bulgarska.Ako Ti kemi kazes sto et Bulgarska,togash Ti si nepismen.Ostavigi politikite na strana,odgovori kako maz po istorija.Pak ke ti recham,po pravilna istorija.Bulgarskata i Grckata mi velat sto sum kako niv.Nie ne mozime da bideme i edno i drugo,nie sme Makedonci!Ke Vi dam edno prashanie;Zasto Bulgarite i Grcite po narodnost ne baraat da bidat vo nekoj organizacij,ama Makedoncite vo dvete drzavi baraat chovekovi prava?

To Shasko:Postom prashuvash dali govoram po Makedonski,eve ti mojot odgovor.Ja sum Makedonka od Egejskiot del na Makedonja od Prespa,Lerinsko.Ti Bulgarche,eli(Blgarin)Pishuvash na Makedonska azbuka Kirilica.Nemoj da odgovorish sto Kirilica et Bulgarska.Ako Ti kemi kazes sto et Bulgarska,togash Ti si nepismen.Ostavigi politikite na strana,odgovori kako maz po istorija.Pak ke ti recham,po pravilna istorija.Bulgarskata i Grckata mi velat sto sum kako niv.Nie ne mozime da bideme i edno i drugo,nie sme Makedonci!Ke Vi dam edno prashanie;Zasto Bulgarite i Grcite po narodnost ne baraat da bidat vo nekoj organizacij,ama Makedoncite vo dvete drzavi baraat chovekovi prava?

That kind of a suggestion will go down like a Led Zeppelin!

if ppl from fyrom are ancient macedonians....and ancient macedonians were greek people.... why not join fyrom and republic of hellas.....sound good, no

Is Greg Meg?

Or is Meg Peg?

And Janet, is she just pulling our leg?

You need to provide concrete evidence that a) David exists? b) that you can identify him concretely.

Shut up david

Or are YOU David, pretending to be someone who wants the Moderator to block David, so that the Moderator gets confused and then doesn't block David? or maybe blocks the wrong gut while thinking it was David?

aaah so now David you are pretending to be "Observer"

Moderators take a hint already and block him!

They should wheel that statue to Thesso as a gift..

..but hide little Skopians inside

who at night, can jump out, and give the signal...

to.. ummm... breech the unbreechable walls unbrechable by virtue of that they don't exist?

Nahh - just jump out, grab an ouzo, and try to ride a pretty one home!

MKD Forever -

When you say:

<<Hail United Macedonia! Greece and Bulgaria are already preparing for handing over of Pirin and Aegean Macedonia to Macedonia. That is why the Greek PM suspended the ministry of Macedonia in northern greece! 2013 shall be a great year for Macedonia!!! >>>

....this is about the most unhelpful comment you could make in the current context.

Firstly, it needlessly provokes the Greeks.

Secondly, other countries who are otherwise friendly to Macedonia will be embarrassed by it.

Thirdly, it is simply untrue.

Three good reasons for you to "fermer la petite gueule". Or, as Prime Minister Attlee put it: "A period of silence on your part would be welcome"

Instead of a big expensive statue of Alexander in Skopje we will put a nice big Albanian mosque. Keep on antagonising greece and bulgaria, that's what we Albanians want because the easier it will be to pull off another Kosova!

What a bunch of children!!!

Right on Jono!

As your Greek Socialist PM, I agree. As Socialists, we have no allegiance to any particular religion. Religion we see as a knife that can cut both ways, to the good or to the bad, regardless if it be Christian or Muslim.

Therefore, as you suggest, if right-wing, FYROM, radicalist-nationalist extremists continue to repress their Muslim Albanian population, and Turkey wants to step in to defend the Albanians because of a perceived Muslim connection -- then we as Greek Socialists will not intervene.

We only intervene to defend human rights -- not the radical, extremist FYROM nationalist "right"!

Wow the last 2 previous posts illustrate your unworthiness for NATO and the EU. You have made your choice now deal with your growing Albanian population because that is your problem now. And do not think Turkey will help you against the Albanians unless you convert to Islam but then again you will do anything for Macedonianism including kill your own selves.

Hail United Macedonia! Greece and Bulgaria are already preparing for handing over of Pirin and Aegean Macedonia to Macedonia. That is why the Greek PM suspended the ministry of Macedonia in northern greece! 2013 shall be a great year for Macedonia!!!

Macedonia to the Macedonians

Wannabee Macedonians (AKA Greeks involved in a population exchange originating from Turkey)Get a life

ONE MACEDONIA TO THE MACEDONIANS

GREEKS OR WHATEVER YOU WOULD LIKE TO BE I SUGGEST YOU BURN YOUR FABRICATED MATERIALS AND GET ON WITH LIFE

Macedonia to the Macedonians

Greece to the Macedonians

We have suffered and endured 400 years of Ottoman rule including slavery, torture, executions...etc. It's going to take a lot more than petty attempts to change history and science to to deter us. It's going to take a lot more than David's (cleopatra/gonzales) antihellenism to bring us down.

O Kyrios einai mazi mas kai oti epithesis kanoun i xenoi tha tous rixoume hamo!

LOL!!how funny this people really are!!This goes to the one who mentined Vylazora!!Wats next?you will try to explain what Aleksandar means and why many Slavic names ends in dar?Dont you people know that the rest of the scientific community lauph at your "scientists" theories??Dont you know that 10% of your vocabulary consists of Greek short worlds??The rest is Serbian,Bulgarian,Turkish,Vlahic.Isnt it logical that when your ancestors arrived to put in their vocabulary some of the worlds of the people who used to live there?So if some worlds from the paeonians were left in the area isnt it logical that those world survived in time and now there is an explenation about what Vylazroa means??Why this has to mean that the Slavs were there for thousand of years before?cause i know that this is what you lately trying to prove.Basically it depents from time to time.Once you were trying to prove that Macedonians were Slavs this is why Greeks called them barbarians(LOL dimosthenes theories!!)when you realised that the world is lauphing at you then you desided that you are ancient Macedonians or simply Macedonians.Bye bye to Rosseta stone theories!!I mean whats next im curius honestly!!i also enjoy the theories during the efford to explain to your children in school what Alexandar(the name you see in every ancient coin ofcourse)mean in your language!!Or the other theorie someone told me about Athina and Atina!!hhahahaha!!Then you people are wondering why noone takes you serius!
Anyway.This was posted in the link of a pshycho Serb in Fyrom!!LOL!!

What was Veles before the arrival of the Slavs?
According to W. Tomaschek, "Die alten Thraker", Bd. I, Wien 1893, p. 18: "weiter zeigt Vylazor [in greek in his text], das heute Weles oder slavische Welica, "being the greatest city of Paionia" [greek text](Polybios 5, 97, 1)", the ame also accepts in the second volume of the same work about the Ancient Thracians: Bd. II/2, Wien 1894, p. 61: "Vylazor, Vylazora [in greek] grosse Stadt der Paionien am Axios, slav. Welica, alb. Weleze". The same thinks also I. Snegarov, "Po vaprosa za eparhijata na Kliment Ochridski", Sofia 1962, p. 212 ss.

Well maybe 126 counties recognised you with a name that refers to the Greek history but whats the point anyway?The minute a solution will be found the next minute those 126 countries will accept the new name!!Dont worrie Slavs we will be your god fathers soon!!Btw there are some memers in EU that did it as far as as know right?here is the cathc.In EU you are Fyrom the same in UN,basically the same in all organitations.Hell even in Eurovison,Fifa,Fiba imagine this!!Btw if your reall problem was how the rest of the planet will call you now we wouldnt be here talking get it???Reallise that next year you will finally in your history have an ethnicity a language and a proper name for your country.Untill then be happy on the net planet that you are traped,specially the nrainwashed diaspora of you people!!Bye bye!!

Please stop this rubbish. We can all live in peace and harmony and hopefully we will reach a solution.

I am happy with ROM and Greece as long as they don't steal my history.

I have a friend Elena and she is a great Macedonian girl.

Whoever is my imposter (and I think I know who) - get it right.

126 plus countries recognize the Republic of Macedonia. Go to any Western country and you will see that Macedonia is a seperate entity from Greece.

Fill in National Census data in Australia and there is a seperate box for Macedonians and Greeks.

You are a bunch of ignorant thieves.

Here's the link to the University of Oslo, who are studying the site of Byla Zora:

http://www.duo.uio.no/sok/work.html?WORKID=91001&lang=en

Oslo is the capital of Norway, a country some of you may or may not have heard of (probably not in Australia !)

"Ancient capital of Paionia in Alexander's time was called "Byla Zora"

"Byla Zora" is exact name for "white dawn" in Slavonic languages.

Therefore Paionia spoke Slavonic".

>>>the worst aberration I have ever seen written in this place and I am bursting out laughing reading it. That is very funny to see how far fanatism in Skopje can go.
And then they will try to convince us Alexander was Slav...

Ancient capital of Paionia in Alexander's time was called "Byla Zora"

"Byla Zora" is exact name for "white dawn" in Slavonic languages.

Therefore Paionia spoke Slavonic.

The Great Greek Conspiracy is to suppress this....

"Macedonism" was a legacy of the Communist International

I'm not a greek so maybe you're not a dumb Slav. The Province of Macedonia is Greek, Skopje is hardly multicultural considering it's just made up of Bulgarians who have an ID crisis like people who go for a sex change and Albanians. Yes that is very multicultural considering your birth rate is at an all time low and the albanian birth rate is at an all time high....good luck with that.

Moderators, please block David/cleopatra/gonzanles/Dr cornelius

1 Scholar added on October 28th 2009:

Hartmut Wolff, Professor für Alte Geschichte (emeritus), Universität Passau (Germany)

Now 351 experts say:

<<We do not understand how the modern inhabitants of ancient Paionia, who speak Slavic – a language introduced into the Balkans about a millennium after the death of Alexander – can claim him as their national hero.

For the first appearance of the Slavs in the Balkans in the mid-6th century after Christ, see Walter Pohl, “Justinian and the Barbarian Kingdoms,” in Michael Maas (ed.), Age of Justinian (Cambridge 2005) 469-471; for their devastating path through Greece in the 580’s, see Anna Avramea, Le Péloponnèse du IVe au VIIIe siècle, changements et persistances (Paris 1997) 67-80>>

http://macedonia-evidence.org/obama-letter.html#addenda

If they published the IP addresses of each post.

I have noticed that one poster here uses the same phrases over and over on different sites.

He is known to be an employee of Skopian television in FYROM - which means he is paid by the government. I guarantee you that the IP addresses would link back to a FYROM government TV station.

The question we could then ask is - why is the FYROM government paying people to comment against Macedonians on the internet?

There are many more important things to write about than fYRoM like H1N1 this is much more important but hardly anybody writes comments about the big business fraud. Maybe too many sheep

This Guy -

<<If they published the IP addresses of each post.

I have noticed that one poster here uses the same phrases over and over on different sites.

He is known to be an employee of NET television in Greece - which means he is paid by the government. I guarantee you that the IP addresses would link back to a Greek government TV station.

The question we could then ask is - why is the Greek government paying people to comment against Macedonians on the internet? >>

Observer - precisely ! Well done for spotting this.

Octavius you dumb Greek, you just proved Cleopatra's points, that Macedonia has been a multi-cultured country since ancient times and should be able to be recognized as such as other multi-cultured countries are.

If they published the IP addresses of each post.

I have noticed that one poster here uses the same phrases over and over on different sites.

He is known to be an employee of NET television in Greece - which means he is paid by the government. I guarantee you that the IP addresses would link back to a Greek government TV station.

The question we could then ask is - why is the Greek government paying people to comment against Macedonians on the internet?

The Romans did not record any Slavs until the late Byzantine empire. Now we all know the romans were quite skilled a keeping records. In fact Constantinople was surprised when the first tribes entered the region and began attacking the City. During this time the Imperial City was to busy with the Arabs to deal with the new comers so they christianised them in order to neutralise them. In fact it is recorded by the Romans that the Gauls and other Goths were in the Macedonian region before the Slavs.

Moderators please block David/Cleopatra

Ivan the Even More Terrible (Straszniejszy) - you have a point about Paionia, but there is the inconvenient fact that, even in ancient times of the Alexander era BC, its capital was always known as "Byla Zora".

Noe "byla zora" (or bila zora) means "white dawn" in nearly every present-day Slavonic language, including Bulgarian and Macedonian.

I make no other comment than to say that this item of information (which is well attested by academics) is inconvenient, to say the least, to those who maintain that there were no Slavs in Macedonia until the end of the Roman era !

I agree with the Ivans, but am gonna be even more terrible by pointing out that present day FYROM was called "Paionia" in Ancient times by Alexander and Philip, but also by most of the Romans -- Paionia was only renamed as a kind of secondary or upper "macedonia" during the decline of the Roman empire, well after the BCs, well after Christ, and well, well, well after the Great Alexander!

And lest we forget there were no Slavs in the area till well, well, after all this as well!

Stupid FYROM Nationalists!
Go pack to Primary School!

Ivan (the Terrible ? Straszny ?) is quite right: under the Roman Empire there were two Macedonias:
the northern one (Macedonia Salutaris) with its capital at today's Titov Veles, and the southern one (Macedonia Prima) with its capital at Salonika. So this is a perfectly good precedent (with its origin in Classical History) for "Northern Macedonia" and "Southern / Greek Macedonia". Neither can claim any sovereighty over the other that way. Looks good to me.....

Ivan is also right about the absence of an "edit" facility on this site. It might be easier said than done, technically speaking, but can the Moderators please log it as a "user request" ?

During the ottoman empire, the region that Skopje occupies was separate from the province of Macedonia. The province of the Macedonia was considered to be the region belonging to the Rum (Romaioi = Greeks from the Byzantine Empire) Similarly, the Ottoman census records no ethnic macedonian but rather Greeks, Jews, muslims and Vlachs. Furthermore, during the Roman Empire Macedonia was dividing into 2 peripheries, the one that includes Skopje's territory and another the consisted of the Province of Macedonia. YOu slavs never had the Province of Macedonia so shut up and get over it

that should have read unjust macedonian. An edit facility would be nice

To JM you state you occupied all aegean Macedonia til 1903- what happened in that year??? The old Ottoman territory of Macedonia was broken up after the first Balkan war changed boundaries after 2nd Balkan war and changed again after first world war. You state Greeks have no claim on the Aegean part which admits there is an aegean part, so there are 2 macedonias like Korea etc. Just call the N and S and be done with it

Northern Greeks had the name "Macedonia" first.

Paionians had the land you FYROMIAN Slavo-Bulgarians presently occupy first.

You FYROM's took something that didn't belong to you.. and now you have to pay the price!

Brace yourselves...

To all people who hate macedonias name go screw yourselfs because thats the name its been the name for years i couldnt give a rats what greece thinks or any other country. We occupied aegean macedonia until 1903 so dont tell me that u are greek and also macedonian its one or the other u speek greek your nationality is greek i speak macedonian my nationality is macedonian i couldnt care less for your views on alexander the great or any other bullshit that u make up about him and being greek he was never greek and macedonia was never greek so get over it we are not slavs we are just macedonians and forever will be regardless of what bullshit name talks comes out of this. REPUBLIC OF MACEDONIA GET USE 2 IT! OR DONT EITHER WAY ITS THE NAME!

He also goes under the name "Marshall Tito", just plane "Tito", "Pausanias", "Demosthenes", and "Akenaton"...

as well as "George II", "Cleopatra", and the others..

Anyone noticing a pattern?

Likely he was responsible for the defrauding going on before of "Peggy's" posts which set her up for an ear-bashing she didn't deserve, and which can't have been that pleasant for anyone to observe!

Other than that, all he does is clog people up in useless, context-free information -- likely he learned how to do this from what looks to be an IT background..

..and then he insults the younger ones who don't have English as their first language for getting tongue tied up amongst it!

Very uncool!

Bigotry in a passive aggressive form!

Moderators please block david/dr cornelius/george II/gonzales/cleopatra. He is causing problems on this site and I am definitely not the only one calling for him to be blocked.

I agree with "bored",

..except if we keep making those FYROMian psuedo-Massos angry,

..they'll keep voting for nationalist extremists like that Guerrilla-evski bloke, or whatever, that they've got now,

..who'll eventually get them bombed, like Milosevic did for his Serb nationalists,

..and then we'll never have to be bored by their boredom again!

Learn the easy way or the hard way all ye FYROM nationalist fanatics!

Watch out for the Albanians and the Bulgarians FYROM, the Greeks feed your people. In another 15 years (provided your government continues it's current stance)you will be part of the "Greater Albania". Every argument your supporters have presented on this blog has been quashed. Even Obama before his Presidency suggested that your leadership go and re-examine the history books.
You are fighting a lost cause.......

macedonia will capitulate 2 mill. makedonci vs. 11 mill. greeks not worth getting angry over macedonia must as a country join eu and the greeks are holding the key simple

Meow, Meow, I can lick myself..

Meow, Meow, any one else want a turn?

Anybody?

I promise it doesn't stink as bad as my political views!

Take your meds Mr Snowboarder - you sure need 'em

@iGenea you are famous

LOL - You want us Macedonians to change our name because you say that you are Macedonians.

If you look at the stats you would see how Macedonian we are.

OK. Mr "pure" Greek???? LOOOOL @ u

same at you tzatziki

Cleopatra, you mean you always support the "FYROM" side, because you are an enemy to the real Macedonia, which always has and always will be Greek.

Alexander would have had you skinned alive and impaled on the end of a phalanx like a shishkebab!

But seriously, why do you always support FYROM with your cheap lies and distortions? Especially if your're that old pasty Pom David who writes in under George II as well, causes all the fights, pretends to have PhDs, and now, pretends to be a Woman?

Where's the connection?

Is this all one big brain sick phantasy in your senile, geriatric schizophrenic brain?

You people are retarded, it doesn't matter if Obama runs igenea or aliens from space.....if your results are not reproducible by other scientists then they are invalid that is why no one has accepted their finds on the Balkan peoples. Get in your heads that NO ONE CAN BREAK THE RULES OF SCIENCE NOT EVEN HARVARD GENETICISTS!!!!

<<Greek Macedonia Supremacy - GMS>> is - not for the first time - quite right in what he says about EU membership preventing any further Macedonian territorial claims, and also in saying that Gruevski said some very silly things yesterday.

I am normally one who takes the Macedonian side, but for once (actually not the first time!) I entirely support what GMS has to say.

To "Give it up":

"Paulos melas stop spreading the Greek distorted view of history and read carefully the history of Macedonia and the different cultures that occupied it. There is no Greek monopoly of Macedonia and as such Macedonia has every right to it's name".

>>>If Skopje have the right, then at least it has to recognize that the (Greek) Macedonia exists too, instead of claiming it's all theirs. Your PM had some very stupid "claiming territories" rhetoric yesterday. Such statements cannot be considered as serious, and come from the mouth of a future EU member state.

Also to remind you that the project of "Great Macedonia" will remain always a dream as soon as Fyrom will enter the EU. War and territorial claims between two members states are forbidden in EU.

first of all why the discussion went to Igenea?What does Igenea has to do with this matter?What are you people??Something like the NAZIS who were trying to prove that they are the descents of the ancient Greeks(including the Macedonias to!!)??Whats next for you people?Vanish the Bulgarians and those who do not support your madness inside Skopje?What is Igenea anyway?When in the past in the scientific world this institution has been heard?What is this with you people that when every whateverist just support you with anyway somehow he becames world famous in his job?The one who posted the comment before is right.Until know since the time this bulsit started and became lets say your holly grave,Igenea NEVER answered to the question that many people(including geneaologists)asked.What do you mean when you say antic Macedonians?Why you hided this to your people anyway?Whats the point.And btw noone said anything bad about Igenea,they do their job they represent their facts,they have costumers but they are scientists.The problem is not what they said,the problem is what you people understood and how important is for you as things are showing!!Its a nation without desperated to find its nationality..Unbeleivable that we have something like this inside Europe in 2009..

iGenea?

They - (with FTDNA) are the worlds biggest gene lab - and they use AJHG - the worlds most prestigious genetics journal for their ancient data.

If you are going to go against them - you better have a good reason. They are run by Harvard geneticists.

Why would the world's biggest gene lab feel the need to lie? The political issue on the name is between Macedonia and Greece - iGenea and FTDNA could probably buy either country. Why would they care?

Paulos melas stop spreading the Greek distorted view of history and read carefully the history of Macedonia and the different cultures that occupied it. There is no Greek monopoly of Macedonia and as such Macedonia has every right to it's name.

To all the Fyromian freaks from diaspora.


First of all Stam Birsim if u are a Greek im a Chinese and what you said about the 90s betrayed you just to inform you!!Now about the Igenea(who btw thanks to you freaks from diaspora cause the peopleon Fyrom cant affort it they made huge profit)still didnt answer the question about when you say Macedonians what do you mean?Once they gave an answer that when they say Macedonians they mean the political meaning.You know uneducated freaks what this means?do u have any cell in your brains left to understant this??Howw can they talk about ancient macedonians where do they found DNA and compared with the Slavobulgars of Fyrom??When they say Macedonians they mean the Slavs who arrived in the area in 700 ad.I guess that your media forgot to mention this to you people.Another thing.History has proved that Macedonians and the greatest of him were a Greek tribe.This matter is no longer under discussion.Why do u think that one of your most important arceologists some weeks ago said that if you dont try to conect yourselfs with the ancient Macedonians you will loose this whole matter?Think Slavs think.They destroyed your brains all this years and specially the diaspora is so fanatized and so blind that they cant accept the obvius!!You are so brainwshed not to understant even this simple thing.All the Greeks were fighting eachoter at that time.Why Athenians fought with Spartans??Why they fought with the corinthians or the Thebes?Alexander UNITED the Greeks and spreaded a civizization and a culture that its name its forbiten in Fyrom the Hellenic one!!All of your theories are based one half of history of spreaded worlds of Dimosthenes(lol!!)and on people who cant do anything else beside try to find something just to be heard.This is your scientific comunity nothing less nothing more.Well this is why noone in this world and specially the balkans who knows you better takes you people serius!!But it seems that humiliation is n your blood you cant avoid it!!Someone mentioned about EU and Greece and economic aid.First of all to spit in the face of the one who actually feads you is ashame.If it wasnt for Greeks now you would be not between the poorsets countrys in the world but simply you would be the poorest.It was a BIG mistake that Greek bussinesman moved in that missery and 3rd world country and as things are showing the last years many of them will come back.Now as for EU,remember this.Since 1991 you took from EU more than 1.5 billion euros.Its my money Slavs get it??Im feading you people.As for the money that Greece takes first of all its not of your concer but since the being lower than someone else complex that you peope suffer from makes you write this things,just to know Greece contributes 5% of EU GPD.Which means what i get is what i give.But again your brainwashers forgot to mention even this to you people.Anyway freaks,yesterday Drouzas made it clear.If we dont find a solution which means geographically name for all uses(inside outside your country,ethnicity language)you can just forget about EU and NATO.To tell u the truth i wish we dont find a solution even the M in the FyRoM is an insult for us.We just have to wait 10-15 years to have a nice conversation with the Alsbos nothing more.So what you have to do is to keep fighting and promote our history(we thank you for this)and everything will be good for both of us!!Cheers from Macedonia Hellas!!

Ivan -

(a) the "Y" in fYRoM is a capital, not a small (en francais, majiscule, pas miniscule). If you can't see this, get a computer with a bigger screen, or change your display typeface (this one isn't always very clear). Anyway, your point about Yugoslavia with a small 'y' falls, as nobody ever argued it here or spelled it that way !

(b) if names and spelling were unimportant, the whole "name" dispute between Greece and fYRoM would never have started in the first place.

(c) the fYRoM spelling point is important not just to the UN, but also to the EU too: the head of the major EU aid agency in south-east Europe (EAR - European Agency for Reconstruction)has given instructions to all his staff operating in all the Balkan countries to spell "fYRoM" correctly, as "fYRoM". Since he disbursing some billion euros into various needy pockets (some of which will be spent wisely and some not), people will do as he says. Anyway, for once he's right.

Skopians stem arguments is the right of self determination.
Alexander self determined as greek along with the rest of his family, the diadochi and the rest of the macedonians upper and lower alike. Why skopians you try to apply a two tier approach here?
What good could do to you a reference of a race who became part of hellenism 2,500 years ago irrispectively of their ultimate origins. they self determined as greeks, they spoken only attic greek since the classical era.
Nonetheless you disregard the fact that you speak bulgarian, you have bulgarian names, and your grand parents were ethnic bulgarians for all we know.
Why your leadership so desperately banned the research on the genetics and origins of slav macedonians if not to hide the obvious bulgarian origins?
Should you believe otherwise pursuade your government to allow research to be done on your ancestors and I promise you will discover your pure bulgarian identity that you were deprived from thanks to Tito who so easily molested your consiouness only to drive through your ignorance and hatry his irridentic claims against the greek region of macedonia.

Greeks every time you start losing the debate on the Macedonian name, you start insulting, belittling, and reverting to Alexander who lived 2,330 years ago,who was of mixed race. This does not justify your claim to the Macedonian name but shows your insecurity that you are wrong.

That sounds like double Dutch to me. The only place in the world one spells Yugoslavia with a small y is in FYROM. Why on earth does it upset you so much if people spell it like I have been. Why is it so important to you to see it with a small fy?? Know what they say - little things please........

Ivan - it's not a typo writing "Yugoslavia" with an initial capital, but it is for "fYRoM".

Elsewhere on this site the Moderators have recently receconfirmed that anyone can post under a name of either gender, or change the name if they wish, although they prefer someone to register with the site (at the top left) and provide a photo, to post then on with a registered, fixed name. Unfortunately very few people take up this invitation.

I think everybody posting, whatever their views, would welcome an "edit" facility. But this may not be technically possible.

Actually I misquoted myself for who gives a damn read "who cares". Same meaning though. Who does care how you write it. fyRoSF-uCC(by some)M

Sorry Cleopatra that was over my head didnt understand the point you were trying to make (was it a typo writing Yugoslavia with a capital?)...and why do you call yourself Cleopatra?? Also you completely missed my point - "Who gives a damn" refers to the name for FYROoM fyRoM or whatever not to English grammar!!!

Kleopatra - if my last post suggested a slight technical glitch on the site whereby the sender's name can become a digital "1", how on earth am I "playing with peoples' emotions" as you suggest ?

Ivan - "an" was a typo for "en", as you point out. But in your own recent posting:

<<You cant have it both ways and in any case a sentence or word at beginning of a sentence always starts with a capital But anyway who gives a damn?? >>

...you either completely ignore the rules of English punctuation or else have committed a couple of typos, just as we all do. There is no "edit" facility on this site, as others have pointed out, so typos are going to happen.

A bon chat, bon rat...avec l'assurance de mes sentiments vien distinguees

So Cleopatra is really a guy?? He obviously wants a sex change

Cleopatra is Gonzales/George II/Dr Cornelius/David

HIS REAL NAME IS DAVID AND HE IS AN OLD BRITISH MAN

Moderators, how long will you let him continue his antics on this site before you finally permanently block him?

This comment has been removed by the moderator because it contained foul, abusive or discriminating language.

If you want to be pedantic it's "en" francais not "an". But again who cares. Americans who manipulate and control the UN have never been good at spelling.
You avoided my question relating to Your name Cleopatra

David STOP IT! Stop playing with people's emotions you british fool

Moderators when will you learn that Gonzales/George II/Dr Cornelius/David are one and the same person and the source of all conflict on this site???

The last posting was from me, but as soon as I key the 6-digit ID number, the sender's name changes to "1" (not very helpfully !)

Is this a technical glitch on the site, Moderators ?

Ivan - don't be arrogant; English usage has changed since you learned it at school. Anyway, international organisations like U and UN have their own jargon and legal formulae, and "fYRoM" is one of the latter.

If it were not so, the Greek government would not have very carefully used it in their most recent press release:

http://www.ana.gr/anaweb/user/showplain?maindoc=8090502&service=142

S'il vous convient de vous exprimer an francais, la formulation correcte est le "ERYdM"

Anyone who knows former Yugoslavia well always calls it either "Jugoslavia" or "Jugoslavija", anyway, just as those who know Slovenia well call it "Slovenija" as the locals do.

katerina - why should you? According to Ottoman census figures Greeks formed only a small minority of the region, much smaller than Jews. The largest ethnic group was Bulgarian - no mention at all of Macedonians. Now why was that?????

Macedonia over the last few thousands years has been controlled by various empires. Does that mean each of these empires has some sort of claim on the Republic of Macedonia?
The fact is that we have been living on this region known as Macedonia since 600-700 AD and thus are entitled to use the name to identify ourselves.
Please note that we we DON'T want to be Greeks!

To Cleopatra I concede the o for of can be small. By the way do you call yourself Cleopatra because she was a Ptolomite hence ancestry originated from Macedonia region?? Put that in you FYRoM history books - Cleopatra was Macedonian makes as much sense as the rest of your history

Tsatsiki-what hapend to your comment it has been removed..

Cleopatra - you made my exact point when you were trying to explain the use of small letters by spelling Yugoslavia (UN version)with a capital exactly the way it should be.You cant have it both ways and in any case a sentence or word at beginning of a sentence always starts with a capital But anyway who gives a damn??

Wild Cat stop using NAZI tactics by exploiting false science to support your fascist and nationalistic ambitions. You will change your name or suffer the wrath of your Albanian population.

Oh I thought we were ethiopians from africa, but now according to your fake genetics we are turks, phoenecians and lebanese...very logical.

Oh and by the way, you still have given us any article that supports your genetics that is from a recognised journal and peer reviewed

Seriously your making a fool of yourself, genes do not determine ethnicity, they determine what we look like, what our hair colour will be, there is NO such thing as a turkish haplotype or a lebanese haplotype for the 5th time!

This comment has been removed by the moderator because it contained foul, abusive or discriminating language.

This comment has been removed by the moderator because it contained foul, abusive or discriminating language.

This comment has been removed by the moderator because it contained foul, abusive or discriminating language.

Greeks, remember a few months ago when Barack Obama had a private meeting with Kostas Karamanlis? What did he refer Macedonia as? Yes. Macedonia and he didn't mean Greek!

Kostas Karamanlis got bitch slapped and he took it like a ....

Who cares what the Greeks think...they can flap their wings all they like because over 126 countries recognize the ROMacedonia.....

Greeks, your genetics are from the J2 Haplotype Group meaning that you are related to the Phoenicians, Lebanese, Turks etc.

OMG...David (Gonzales, Dr Cornelius, George II) is now pretending to be a woman Cleopatra!!?!

You are PATHETIC!

Ivan - it may well be bad English as an acronym, but it's precisely what the UN lays down, and in full it's perfectly good English: << former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia >>. Likewise the French << Ex-Yougoslave Republique de Macedonia >> becomes EYRdM following the rules of French grammar.

The UN Resolution concerned lays down that these two formulas /acronyms, PRECISELY as spelled (even if they appear incorrect, which they aren't) are the only valid way of referring internationally to the country concerned (fYRoM), unless the state concerned has recognised fYRoM under its "constitutional name" (Republic of Macedonia).

The Greek government, in the press release to which I gave the link, scrupulously observes the UN rule, so I suggest you do too.

(There used to be a rule in English grammar that all acronyms had to be in capital letters, but this rule has been abolished for the past 50 years. Hence DfT for "Department for Transport", DfID, 'defra' for "Department of Food, Agriculture and Rural Affairs, and so on. Acronyms also no longer need to begin with a capital letter, either : "defra" is a good example.

Nikola - Dont forget the Albanians from the west!! (and a few serbs from the north). Can anybody explain why in all the census' prepared by the Ottomans when they controlled the region no mention is EVER made of ethnic Macedonians. If they existed didnt the Turks realise it??

FYROM Alexanda-propaganda is so right-wing fascist in orientation..

..that when they try to play the victim as well, against those "evil Greeks", or whatever, it's all about as convincing as when..

..that War Criminal Milosevic claimed he wanted to stop his poor downtrodden people from being "beaten again", by those evil Albanians who apparently wanted to ethnically cleanse them...

..yeah right, whose the real ethnic cleanser..

..it's like these fools don't realise they are looking in the mirror as soon as they start with the playing-the-victim accusations!

For all those dumm historians out there who think the Macedonians slaughtered the Greeks. Firstly there was no Greece back then only a united front of some city-states led by Athens and Thebes. On the Macedonian side there was an alliance of other ethne like Macedonia namely Thessalians, Phokaians, Lokrians, and Molossians. Now the question here is why so many nuanced Greek peoples fought each other. Oh simple, maybe the ethne (non-urban tribes) like the Lokrians, Phokaians, macedonians, etc., were not impressed by the Political institutions of the city-states which promoted democracy. In other words if Philip, Onomarchus, Alexander (Thessalian), and Leotyches wanted to become democratic they would have to relinquish their royal powers which like the Bronze age Greeks were ruled by Kings and his companions while the city-states, well you all know you all live in liberal democracies now so I don't have to explain the power of the peoples vote. So actually it was one political system slaughtering another and throughout the history of Greece they slaughtered echa other centuries before even the first macedonian village was formed. By the time the macedonians came onto the scene all the other different tribes (greek) could already see what a barbaric system they were still practicing just like all the other northern Greek tribes. So you see my friends modern macedonians are a regional identity of Slavic peoples descended from the Bulgarians in the north and Greeks in the south. Is that enough history. And by the way all you Macedonians in fyrom who do want new leadership look to the young Vasko Gligorov the boy has stood up to the fascist ideals of your country many times and has been jailed constantly. I'm happy to see that many of you already are in touch with him which is excellent. He has certainly brought to light some of the most embarrassing dirty laundry your government have been attempting to hide so keep up the good work. Many of the Macedonians of Greek heritage stand shoulder to shoulder with you and also hope for some resolution. My girlfiend Gordana is from Prilep and she is a beautiful gorgeous Macedonian girl. We always talk about our Slavic and Greek heritages and see that many other young in Macedonia are talking about the same views.

This talk of a genetic experiment that no one else seems to be able to produce the same results is all to similar to Hitler's theory on the superiority of the German race. Be careful you slavs, before you know it you will be painting the swastika on your faces which by the way is an ancient macedonian sympbol....perhaps you should look for another race's history to steal while you still can.

FYROM, FYROM, FYROM, FYROM;

FYROMians, FYROMANIANS, FYROMABULGARIANS, FYROMASALVONIANS.

FYROMSKIS, FYROMSKAS, FYROMAVESKIS, FYROMAVESKAS.

Cap it like you want, but you are not Greeks, so you'll never be Macedonians!

There is no such thing as an Ancient Macedonia marker!!!!! There is no such thing as a Turkish marker nor, Serbian marker...you are implying that there are specific nucleic acid sequence for a race is the most ridiculous theory science has ever hear. And sorry to burst your bubble but the results that you talk about from igenea are not reproducible and therefore rejected by the scientific community. It doesnt matter if the Queen of England performed the experiment, scientific law says that if the results are not reproducible then the data is invalid.

oh, if you're igenea experiment is precocious then why doesnt the American Journal of Science have an article on the igenea report? or Nature?

Yes Stam maybe it doesn't wash with you because you are probably one of our fascist diaspora. You all think that reading the polls from our state Tvs speaks for everyone. You certainly have a very narrow way of looking at things. In any case the Macedonian YOUTH don't need your support for we are concerned with the EU and our future you can all go and jump in the Varder and drown you clown. As long as this fascist government refuse to negotiate the more support the Left will gain in Macedonia and the YOUTH are mobilising support. You see there are always two types of political directions and we the Macedonian YOUTH are turning more left by the day. You all can keep the the fascist right with the unholy church backing it and all the icons of corruption. Stam you are certainly one of the diaspora idiots we all hear about on this site so stop pretending to be a Greek.

Funlove- now thats an idea

Who the hell cares how you spell FYROM. To put small F and Y is bad bad English. (Former starts the sentence and Yugoslavia as a state starts with a capital)

Maybe if the EU considered reversing the Berlin Treaty of 1878 as the lands now under the name of Macedonia would be given back to Bulgaria thus resolving the name problem ! - just a thought !!

maxim - also how do you think that America became the United states. Not 100% by peaceful means I think. I rest my case

Maxim - in those days everyone fought everyone. See how many times Sparta was at war with Athens does that make them less Greek??

Sorry - forgot the link. Here is it is:

http://www.ana.gr/anaweb/user/showplain?maindoc=8090502&service=142

Sorry, forgot the link. Here it is:

http://www.ana.gr/anaweb/user/showplain?maindoc=8090502&service=142

Well (and thanks to GMS for this one) at least:

(a) Papandreou and Gruevski are talking to one another (more than ever happened with Karamanlis)

(b) the Greek government is carefully spelling fYRoM correctly in its press releases. (FYROM or - even worse - F.Y.R.O.M - is wrong and possibly illegal under UN law - fYRoM is the only correct spelling
unless you are speaking French, where it's ERYdM. )

Will everybody PLEASE NOTE, and get your spelling (a) CORRECT, and (b) LEGAL. = fYRoM .

Richard-if you call making war and then controling the greeks city states (uniting) than id hate to think how you would discribe friendship

Facts please Wildcat I think Greece joined in the early 80's not 60's but otherwise you are right

Wildcat - Alexander united the Greeks. Everyone knows that they were city states until his unification for the first time. Perhaps Greece as a country wouldnt have existed without him

Kostas T - where do you get this info from?? Another Macedonian History book??

hey wild cat
you sound like a wild cat
are you ?

@Epistime

If Alexander were Greek then why did he conquer & slaughter the Greeks?

Your own historians will be rolling around in their graves because of you Greeks worshipping the man that slaughtered Hellens.

Anyway, still doesn't make you Macedonian.

And what does Alexander have to do with the EU?

This is about Macedonians being able to call themselves what they want.

It has nothing to do with Alexander - and Greece has nothing to do with Alexander either

O "MEGAS" ALEXANDROS -
ELLINAS APO MAKEDONIA

Translated=

Alexander the Great -
Greek from Macedonia
(which was an ancient
Greek city state)

Oh, and I found this....because some Greeks like to rub it in that they are 'wealthier' than Macedonian... Well DUH! If Macedonians got that much aid - they would be better off as well... although paying 5 euro's for a coffee doesn't sound to good if you ask me.


Takis Michas, Greek author:

Greece is a country that since its admission to the European Community (EC) in the late 60s has been practically living on generous European Union handouts (approaching 6% of the GDP annually)

Ivan

Most Macedonians didn't want to join Bulgaria. That is why certain revolutionary organizations kept their Bulgarian intentions secret.

Sasho is in certain ways right. If Bulgaria had indeed won the 2nd Balkan war (and only the Tzar grandfather of Simeon started it) or indeed if that Tzar hadnt started it in the first place most of the region would be Bulgarian and Bulgaria wouldnt have joined forces with the Germans in world war 1. People of FYROM would not have objected 100 years ago most actually wanted unity with Bulgaria and many emigrated to Bg and set up political parties

@The Journal Nature - you got owned. But please - humour us. We will slam dunk anybody that bullshits.

Macedonia is NOT Greek

Hi to all the normal Greeks out there!

I am the editor for the ultra-prestigious magazine 'Fake History Gazette'.

I have to state that the Greek government is one of our greatest contributors - with their statements like "There is no Macedonian ethnicity", "Macedonia has always been Greek" and "There are no minorities in Greece".

We can't wait for the next Greek government official history revision.

Just reading the posts. This one is for Elinas who thinks Greece is a wealthy country.

FACT - Greece is the LARGEST aid recipient on the planet in absolute terms.

Name another country that is getting more than 4 billion Euro a year EVERY year, just because it is undeveloped?

And on top of being on welfare - you also have the highest debt/gdp ratio in Europe!

So Elinas, Basically, Greece has what it has because of the EU Aid.

Greece perhaps is Veto'ing Macedonia because they do not want to share the unemployed benefits Greece is recieving around?

Oh, we will wait and see in January at the ICJ. I say Macedonia change their flag back to what it was originally because you cannot compromise with arrogant people

Oh so now the journal Nature does it's own tests?

hahahahah

You are really, really scraping the barrel!

read the journal!

They publish academics papers! They don't write their own!

Ms Smarty - Ever heard of the country called South Africa?? Where's the one called North Africa??? - It's just a region. Also South Georgia where is North Georgia?? and Wildcat can you quote some names please and references

Stam, Hi! I am a Macedonian girl btw. :)

Macedonian NOT Greek

@ Journal Nature - Are you stating that iGenea, who are the worlds biggest genomic lab and are used by National Geographic, is giving false information?

They state that 30% of Macedonians have Ancient Macedonian markers, and only 5% of Greeks do - what right does Greece have to claim exclusive 'ownership' of the concept of Macedonia?

Why don't you write a paper to the American Journal of Human Genetics stating that iGenea is wrong?

If you could prove it, they'd definitely publish it, because you'd be knocking over the worlds biggest genomic lab (FT DNA). Are you are saying they are wrong here - but you aren't backing it up with any argument. Which means you wish it is wrong???

As an official of the prestigious journal of Nature, I would like inform all Balkan nationalities that these genetic studies done on the mentioned Balkan peoples such as Greeks have been rejected by the scientific community. Our attempts to reproduce the results have failed and have produced varied results. Please stop using science to justify your nationalistic ambitious because the scientific community does not support your claims and rejects these genetic claims.

Administrative Officer
Nature

actually your right stam there is no fyromains just Macedonians

I doubt very much that many of those posting on here are actually fYRoMians.

I can smell ultranationalist Greeks. All of the 'Youth of Macedonia' comments for example - we know that 98% of fYRoMians are against changing the name - and in any case more than half of them DON'T want to be in the EU. So pretending to be the 'Youth of Macedonia' doesn't seem to wash.

Onya Stam! Atleast we have one Greek with a brain!

You must be quite the catch!

Who do you think were the people that they called 'Slavs'?

Of course 30% of these 'Slavs' have DNA that matches the Ancient Macedonians, how many Greeks do? 5% - and they are the Macedonians that have been forcibly Hellenized!

How many modern Greeks have DNA that matches Ancient Greek? 35% LOL! Only 1 in 3 of you 'proud Greeks' is actually Greek! Your Turkish and Albanian ancestors would be very upset at you!

Macedonia did not have a Greek history - it ruled over Greece and the Greeks. The majority of people in Macedonia until the early 20thC were Slavic speaking Christians - look at every independent 19thC census on Demographics of Macedonia (wiki)... Greeks were a minority; generally 10% or less.

The Bulgarian title was put on them by Bulgaria, the Ottomans and the Greeks - there are plenty of writings by 19thC Macedonian nationalists to show that many of the Macedonian Christians considered themselves Macedonian.

35% of Modern Greeks are descended from the Ancient Greeks (I'd say the Homo bit) - and 30% of Modern Macedonians are descended from the Ancient Macedonians

Well only one country is called Macedonia... you can change Greece to Macedonia as well... then we'd probably have reasons to use north and south... but if it is North Macedonia, where is the country South Macedonia?

There is only one Macedonia.
My Macedonia.
The Republic Of Macedonia as it is knowen today.
Why is everyone arguing.
The name has not been changed and wont be.
oh and if a name can be changed ,
I ask you all why can't it be changed again once we are in this EU & NATO club ? Who will stop as then ?

I dont see the problem with 'North Macedonia'. it means what it says, and it sounds nicer than 'The Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia'

As an educated Greek man, we should all live in peace and harmony. I must agree with 'Logic' though. Why didn't Greece not argue for 90 years that the Macedonians in Yugoslavia called themselves Macedonians? There were no Macedonian regions in Greece prior to this.

Once again, I hope that my compatriots can understand this.

ps. This one's for you Elena - You are one true Macedonian Princess

Its this stupid tito-era super-nationalistism that screws up the region. ok so say you do believe that macedonians are their own ethnicity thats only found in the Former Yugos...., you still have to realise that its a region and you cant name yourself completely after the region. Like romania calling itself "Balkans" or France calling itself "Europe" or South Africa changing its name to "Africa".

Tp Logic what are talking about of course Slavs exist who are we then you stupido. As Macedonians we look at our Slavic ancestry and we see it in our language. And there are still Franks and Saxons where are you from some crazy psychiatric ward in skopje. You should stop taking those pills they give you. Oue Slavic ethnicity is strong and all macedonians know that. In Krushevo our forefathers died for our Slavic heritage so mr. Logic go back to sleep and we will wake you up at your next pills.

Hey Sasha you are making the diaspora idiots very angry by the sounds. Sashko wants to know where you are from, and who you speak for, obviously he woke up in some canadian hacienda. Yo know Sasha the diaspora have to come and live here for 17 years like us and then see if what they say and think is as simple as they believe. As usuall the diaspora way of looking through the current dilemma is with myopic precision. They think that what they dictate thousands of kiloms. away some how have a relevance here. Just like Prsko Sashko these morons believe in something which only they can enjoy, the freedom to fantasise about skirt wearing men which I wouldn't mind myself, but I like the skirts of the comitadji. The Macedonian YOUTH are behind you Sasha. Macedonia for the Macedonians.

Hey everyone its time to move forward. Stop bickering and make love. Our Macedonian pride will always be there, whether we are Bulgarians, Greeks or Yugis so doesn't matter as Macedonians we should all be proud. I am actually from Bulgaria but my Macedonian cousins in strumica always tell me that we are all the same. So proud to be Macedonian but Bulgarian Macedonian not YUGi Macedonian..HAHHAHAHA

The Macedonian Youth are here and strong and without the diaspora idiots like my namesake Sashko who obviously thinks he knows more than one macedonian word we are going to move forward. These diaspora PRaski have been running our country too long and soon it will be a country free of the fascist Diaspora iditos who come here go over the border into Greece and dance at Meliti as if they have just conquered Asia all over again. Logic thinks that we are not Slavs where is this imbecile been hiding definitely under some rock in canada or australia. Slavs have always been around and our Bulgarian surnames can prove that. If logic thinks he is so smart then why can't he tell the 97% of Macedonians who have Bulgarian surnames with -ski suffixes how they received these suffixes in 1945 by the initially left leaning Konski only to flip to the fascist doctrine of changing all our peoples names, and if need be by force. Only the surnames of our Bulgarian brothers in the strumica area who came into our state after this widespread persecution were left with their original Bulgarian names. Here in Ohrid many of our community have been persecuted over the years for changing their names back to their original form. The best example is the case with Panov who stood up to the fascists and was jailed and beaten. You see logic, danielle, and of course my Prasko Sashko diaspora friend you live in a world surrounded by english speakers, wealth, consumerism, and material dreams. But here in Macedonia, the YOUTH of Macedonia have bigger mountains to climb, need security, believe in progress, and need leadership. You are part of the leadership that keeps us in the world that the chief idiot of Archaeology here said he is trying to find. And that is our ancient identity which after 18 years keeps failing because all that he finds is attached to Greek culture. So be proud Slavic people like ourselves, its good to have our roots deeply interwoven in the movements of our Slavic forefathers. The Macedonians have lived under Gotse Delchevs Banner in the past now only half of us do. As he proclaimed our Bulgarian background people like you PRasko Sashko, Danielle, and logic only look to the antiquisation politics which you had begun in the diaspora and now our fascist leader is passionately following. Macedonia for the Macedonians (Except the diaspora of course who are the diaspora for the diaspora). Welcome back Vasko Gligorov the fascists will never break us.

This comment has been removed by the moderator because it contained foul, abusive or discriminating language.

If you knew your vocabulary you would know that logic means sensibility. You ARE Slavs, in fact many of your citizens are starting to discover your bulgarian roots. Yes italian, french, spanish are all related to latin. However your language is nothing close to what the ancient macedonians spoke....GREEK! Your language is linguistically similar to bulgarian to the point you dont even need to translate when you visit each other's country. However you can't even understand the language of the macedonians...greek! Oh yeah that is very logical
Also, the Province of Macedonia was not stolen from you especially considering you werent even a country until the 1990s. But keep on fantasizing, keep on angering your neighbours (Bulgaria, Albania, Kosovo, Greece) because in the end unless you smarten up you will autodestruct courtesy of your growing albanian population and truth be told no one will miss you

Danielle, the Ottoman records show no mention of your so-called makedonski. Also the bishop of Ohrid during the Ottoman empire was a greek church under the Ecumenical Patriarch.
Also, the churches in the Province of Macedonia are either from the Byzantine Empire (ie St Demetrius Cathedral in the old Basilica style) or from modern Greece. There are no Slavic churches with cyrillic. Instead, many of your churches have greek inscriptions on them especially the ones in Ohrid.

Oh and by the way, we think you are a joke so shove your hope where it don't shine

This comment has been removed by the moderator because it contained off-topic content.

You all need a bucket of water thrown on you, how can a country have 30% Macedonian DNA and have always identified as Macedonian not be Macedonian and how can a country with 5% or less Macedonian DNA be considered the real deal? Impossible! Why did Greece not argue for 90 years that the Macedonians in Jugoslavia called themselves Macedonians and why start 17 years ago, why did the Greeks on 17 years ago start calling northern Greece Macedonia and not before.

There is no such modern ethnic group as the ‘Slavs’ – ‘Slavs’ do not exist as an ethnic group in the modern world, any more than do Angles, Saxons, Franks, Gauls, Visigoths or Vikings. ‘Slavic’ is a linguistic, not an ethnic category. The Macedonians speak a Slavic language, and in that sense they are ‘Slavic’, just as the English and Dutch are ‘Germanic’ and the Italians and French are ‘Latin’. Greek nationalists demanding that the Macedonians call themselves ‘Slavs’ is like someone demanding that the English and Dutch call themselves ‘Germanics’ or that the Italians and French call themselves ‘Latins’. It is up to the Macedonians alone whether they feel their identity to be ‘Slavic’ or not – nobody else has the right to impose such an identity on them. So stop trying to make us into something we don’t want to be just so you can justify stealing 51% of Macedonia from us!

Hey Fyromians...you better become a little more flexible with yu pretensions and a little less antagonistic, especially since you are a pion despised by much bigger neighbours, otherwise you will remain mired in poverty and insecurity because Greece will continue to block your progress as a nation as long as you insist on stealing our History.

Hey Sasho...Bulgaria didn't win the second balkan war...Greece did...so why don't "you" get over it.

Not to mention Greeks have been there for 4000 years regardless of who the governing authority was...how long have the Bulgrads and Slavs been there...a thousand or so.

Macedonia was born of Greece and will die of Greece. The Slavs with no identity should create something uniquely their own and leave the histories of their neighbours alone.

Hey Sasho...Bulgaria didn't win the second balkan war...Greece did...so why don't "you" get over it.

Not to mention Greeks have been there for 4000 years regardless of who the governing authority was...how long have the Bulgrads and Slavs been there...a thousand or so.

Macedonia was born of Greece and will die of Greece. The Slavs with no identity should create something uniquely their own and leave the histories of their neighbours alone.

Hey Sasho...Bulgaria didn't win the second balkan war...Greece did...so why don't "you" get over it.

Not to mention Greeks have been there for 4000 years regardless of who the governing authority was...how long have the Bulgrads and Slavs been there...a thousand or so.

Macedonia was born of Greece and will die of Greece. The Slavs with no identity should create something uniquely their own and leave the histories of their neighbours alone.

Hey Sasho...Bulgaria didn't win the second balkan war...Greece did...so why don't "you" get over it.

Not to mention Greeks have been there for 4000 years regardless of who the governing authority was...how long have the Bulgrads and Slavs been there...a thousand or so.

Macedonia was born of Greece and will die of Greece. The Slavs with no identity should create something uniquely their own and leave the histories of their neighbours alone.

Hey Sasho...Bulgaria didn't win the second balkan war...Greece did...so why don't "you" get over it.

Not to mention Greeks have been there for 4000 years regardless of who the governing authority was...how long have the Bulgrads and Slavs been there...a thousand or so.

Macedonia was born of Greece and will die of Greece. The Slavs with no identity should create something uniquely their own and leave the histories of their neighbours alone.

you know, all of this macedonia name would be mute if Bulgaria won the second balkan war in 1913. Greece has had that area less than 100 years, but act as if they've always had that area. Greece needs to get off their pedastool and realize macedonia is for Bulgaria, Greece, and FYROMacedonia. It was used for slavs and greeks, but greeks always forget this point of view. Get over it greece, because you're acting like complete idiots over this issue. Oh, and open up some stores on Sunday.

Papandreou will meet with Gruevski tomorrow in Brussels. Steps about the name issue may go faster than I first thought.

http://www.ana.gr/anaweb/user/showplain?maindoc=8090502&service=142

Papandreou will meet with Gruevski tomorrow in Brussels. Steps about the name issue may go faster than I first thought.

http://www.ana.gr/anaweb/user/showplain?maindoc=8090502&service=142

Dear F.Y.R.O.M the only name that belongs to you and nobody else is your original name REPUBLIC OF VARDASKA

Thank you

Dear F.Y.R.O.M the only name that belongs to you and nobody else is your original name REPUBLIC OF VARDASKA

Thank you

keep dream, keep hope.macedonia olways greece.propagand is over,the game is over.

Macedonia the name, the history and the culture are all Greek. Today's FYROM simply rests on what was the former Roman Province of Macedonia. In no way are there relationships between ancient Macedonians and todays FYROMians. They, the FYROMians, are slavic people who migrated to the area in 6th century A.D.

In ancient Greece (mind you there was never an actual country of Greece in ancient times), the "nations" were comprised of city-states such as Athens, Sparta, Corinth, Troy, Macedonia, Argos, etc... Macedonia was one of these city-states. They were Greek people. This is even documented by the very first historian, Herodotus, in his ancient text, not to mention countless others, including even the Bible. Some additional examples such as Alexander (etymologically a Greek name) the Great, he took part int he Olympic games, something only Greeks could do. His mother was Olympias. His half-sister was Thessaloniki, named after victory of the thessalians. Todays FYROMians call the city "Solun". Keep in mind the city they have their own name for is part of the reason Greece is disputing them, because they stake claim to Greek land, by using a Greek name. Imagine a stranger coming into your home, stealing your name, cops coming, he shows identification that was made up to show he was the homeowner, the cops leave. He ends up robbing the place or calling it his own. All because of a name.

Consider this example. There is the US State of Texas, the country of Mexico, the country of USA. Mexico splits in civil war or independently into different countries (republics). One new republic which borders the US State of Texas decides to take the name and name themselves as the Republic of Texas. Their logic now spreads and the people begin calling themselves ethnic Texans. After some time, the world begins to know them as ethnic Texans, when they really are Mexicans. Next step... They begin claiming all people of the US State of Texas are now a minority in the US, but that they are ethnic Texans and they should have minority rights. Remind you that they have been the real Texans all along. They take it further and begin claiming that the US State of Texas is now "occupied" land that rightfully belongs to the Republic of Texas. The US State of Texas' accent is now an official "Texas language". All US State of Texas history (think Alamo, etc...) are being rewritten as part of ethnic Texan history. Far out? I think not, this is what is going on with this issue. Substitute US state of Texas for Macedonia, the Greek province, real Macedonia. Substitute USA for Greece. Substitute the Republic of Texas for FYROM (former yugoslav republic of macedonia). This is the issue. Do a quick google search and you will find that they have rewritten history books of all ages, from elementary school to college to show Greek land as their own, including Greece's second largest city.

Macedonia was, is and always will be Greek. All FYROMians should be rightly called New Macedonians. This is the respect the USA showed to Mexico when naming the state, they called it New Mexico. Instead they steal Greece's identity, culture and history. Something the academic world, and albeit late, politicians have began to pick up on.

Another thing.Since you like so much churches and those kind of staff,and since i know Fyrom quite well and i beleive better than you here some tips and some places for you to visit!!Go to Tetovo(its like say go to Albania but anyway!!)to a place called Nerezi(sorry if i cant profer it right)there is a monastiri there as you go up int Bronto mountain.Go there and try to find any Slavic epigraph!!Go and read what it rights on the entrnce!!Before u do it take your pills!!that monastir is from the 14 century!!And im talking for Tetovo ok??Cause all over Fyrom there are many churches that have been saved from you people and still are there with Greeks srcipts,but i never expected in my life to see this so far up!!!Now tell me something.Do u people there in Australia still berning Greek churches or you quited this bad habbit??

First of all i dont know if Sasha is a Fyromian or pretentind to be,but i myself live in Florina and i have friends relatives and generally i work and go many times to Vardar.What she says is absolutely true.Im wondering the people from diaspora dont know it?When was the last time they visited Fyrom and simply talk with a young person about this matter??Guys outhere in Australia im telling you,you have NO idea its like you are on your own planet!!Anyway.

Danielle till yesterday you were happy for the ministry.many Greeks told you that it suspended 3 weeks ago not 2 days as MINA informed you people out there LOL(honeslty if you get information from this link then im right when i said you live on your own planet!!)and basically it was renamed in Macedonia and Thrace secretary that was happened it is NOT gone!!in the summer if you visit your motherland come in Thessaloniki(we are an hour from Fyrom) go 500 metres from saint Dimitris church it is still there in the same bulding with the same name with the same people!!The reason that this happened was because when it was ministry it had many people working for no reason in reallity.This is why the ministry of Aegean closed too!!But im curius how desperated you people are to beleive that this has anything to do with you or that our politic regarding this issue will change??i mean dont they have dignity to tell you at least the truth and stop selfhumiliate your selfs on the net??And as u see now like it or not our priminister made it clear.First we will find a solution which means name for all uses(name of the country,language ethnicity)then we can discuss about the chance of you to enter the Union.The sooner you people realise this the better for you.there is no other way for you to enter in the union im sorry.Danielle sorry if i offend you with what i will say but honeslty you are probably the BIGEST clown desperated and brainwashed person i met in the net!!The panhellenic 16 star symbol of Vergina is basically in the majority of mothers mary paintings in Greece!hahahaha!i mean is it possible people like you to exsist!!You dont know even this??man you need help!!why you humiliate yourself like this??

repuplic vardaria is very correct

Just because you call yourselves Macedonians doesn't give you the exclusive right of ownership of that name and everything that goes with it when you firstly have stolen the name and created distorted arguments as an organized group to fit your agenda just to create an identity which clearly is not yours. Greeks do not have to call themselves Macedonians because Macedonia throughout history was always clearly Greek even under the rule of different powers (Romans, Byzantines (Greek & Roman mix), Ottoman) and with border changes and population movements. It was because of Macedonia under Alexander that Greeks finally developed after centuries a more unified sense of being Greek and hence the start of Hellenism. We don't need a history lesson but apparantely your whole nation does. Even within your nation, some of its people still identify themselves as slavic, and are reluctant to base their identity of Macedonia in antiquity because they understand they have no relation besides using the name. All you neighbours have a problem with your identity because they understand the history of the Balkans and your formation. No one is denying your right to live as a people and state, but they have a problem with your name and false identity, so it is up to you to be realists and create a better future for your state rather than living under false lies and propogandas which just push your nation further back.

TOM.the problem is you are slavs and you see you are macedonian,didt you now watt means macedonia;;;;;;;;;;you steal or history and you see we are fascist.and your hope sorry is not possiple.we are nothing you are ciries;;;and you are watt;;;

If Macedonians can't identify themselves as Macedonians , how can Greeks be Macedonians. Why din't you name your country Macedonia 180 years ago. Since you care so much about Macedonia. Since you have changed borders three times once in 1829,1881-1897, and 1913.You are nothing but Greek fascist expantionist. I hope one day you loose Macedonia so you can be left with your rocks and olives.

from turkey must be very importent.the contry hoo never reconasit the genocide of armenian,greecs.and other ass lies,very syries.

macedonia is all ready in E.U from 1981 as greece part.

To Elena.Dear lady,I dont know if you are Bulgarian or Greek,but let me tell you a very importent news directly from Turkey.Durring the Ottomans Empire the Macedonians were registered as such.The Macedonian churches are a testament to that through out the Republic of Macedonia,also in the Greek part of Macedonia churches had its own Icons,but the Greeks erased the Cyrilic letters and wrote in Greek.Further to make a point,I visited a church build in 1104 in Macedonia and numerouse other churches that have the sixteen ray star.Has anyone found such thing in Greece or Bulgaria proper?The answer is absolutly no!Please,stop with these absurd lies.I would like you to go to Greece and check at the property registars office and see in whos language the names are registered.What I mean by names such as rivers,mountain,or areas we the Macedonians named.With or without Greeces help,Macedonia will join the EU sooner or later.

To Elena.Dear lady,I dont know if you are Bulgarian or Greek,but let me tell you a very importent news directly from Turkey.Durring the Ottomans Empire the Macedonians were registered as such.The Macedonian churches are a testament to that through out the Republic of Macedonia,also in the Greek part of Macedonia churches had its own Icons,but the Greeks erased the Cyrilic letters and wrote in Greek.Further to make a point,I visited a church build in 1104 in Macedonia and numerouse other churches that have the sixteen ray star.Has anyone found such thing in Greece or Bulgaria proper?The answer is absolutly no!Please,stop with these absurd lies.I would like you to go to Greece and check at the property registars office and see in whos language the names are registered.What I mean by names such as rivers,mountain,or areas we the Macedonians named.With or without Greeces help,Macedonia will join the EU sooner or later.

This comment has been removed by the moderator because it contained foul, abusive or discriminating language.

This comment has been removed by the moderator because it contained foul, abusive or discriminating language.

Funny how the Ottoman census never mentions any makedonski in Macedonia but rather Greeks, Jews, Slavs, Turks and Vlachs. Oh and the Ottomans were quite good at their record keeping.

Say thank you to Tito who gave you your fake identity which is destroying you by making all your neighbours angry and your growing Albanian population in your borders. Now it comes down to whether you wish to hold on to your fake identity and disappear or abandon it and accept your true Slavic identity and survive? The choice is yours but time is running out and it looks like at this point no one will miss you if you choose to autodestruct.

good luck

if never visit thesaloniki go too VERGINA 50 km away,then you see,how is the realy macedonian.macedonian have a greece name greece langouts,beaucose the are greece.you fyrom [vardaska] must stop cancel your realy history as slavs and too see realy ho you are;;;youth lays can make contry.

And this is the end of FYROM claiming being the one heritors of Alexander... With the Republic of Northern Macedonia, the international community will get to know a Southern part exists somewhere... And by "Southern Macedonia", which will never be named as such, we mean the real and original single word "Macedonia", the greek one. That are actually good news.

Though I am not sure FYROM will negociate for real before the december summit. They will probably simulate it to show some good will to the EU.

One the dispute is over, FYROM will be lost and just another small country. Greece has put them in the spotlight.

The name WILL get changed. All FYROMians can expect this. If it wasnt going to be changed, there wouldnt be any talks. Tough to beleive, but this is the ultimate outcome.

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Oh please. Don't you love fake Macedonians trying to pass themselves off as the "Youth of Macedonia"?

He is probably Greek.

They are more concerned with getting the name issue solved before January 20, 2010 - when Greece has to provide their defense to the ICJ - where they will get nailed.

Sasha, what other macedonian words do you know besides "narod." We have noticed your comments of similar nature on other blogs. I'm afraid you don't speak on behalf of the Macedonian Youth. Where are you from? Who do you speak for? The Diaspora is strong and we are being heard and support the Republic of Macedonia.

bravo you said it right

It is time. The Youth of Macedonia are ready for Progress. Now we need leadership and not antiquisation politics. Macedonians should be prepared for the EU which is the only way our Narod will ever achieve a decent future. If the proposal is only to change to the Republic of Northern Macedonia then it is good for the YOuth. As long as our identity and language are not compromised. We are proud Slavic people and and putting a geographic qualifier will not harm our Narod. As long as the diaspora keep out of our business and their antiquisation rubbish then we will succeed. But if our leader who has just come back from Australia doesn't find it in himself to compromise then he should stand down. The Youth of Macedonia want hope and that hope lays in Europe not fancifull romances with the Greek Al. Veliki. Modern Macedonians are Slavs, so be proud of our heritage just as Gotse Delchev was.