Sat, Feb 11 2012

Serbian president Tadic's firm message on Kosovo at the UN

Sat, Sep 26 2009 09:50 CET 5534 Views 190 Comments
Serbian president Tadic's firm message on Kosovo at the UN

President of Serbia Boris Tadic addresses the 64th United Nations General Assembly at UN headquarters in New York, September 25 2009.

Serbian president Boris Tadic, addressing the United Nations General Assembly, thanked all UN states that had not recognised Kosovo as independent and, underlining that the International Court of Justice proceedings on the question were still underway, urged that there be no further recognitions.
 
Tadic pledged once again that Belgrade would never recognise Kosovo as independent, viewing the February 2008 unilateral declaration of independence in Pristina as illegal.
 
"I come before you as the president of a country that has become caught at the heart of one of the most dangerous challenges to the universality of the international system since the founding of the United Nations," Tadic told the General Assembly on September 25 2009.
 
What he described as Kosovo’s "attempt at secession" was, he said, in direct violation of Serbia’s constitution, and the basic principles of the UN Charter, the Helsinki Final Act, and Security Council resolution 1244 of 1999.
 
"Some say Kosovo’s UDI is a unique case. But in truth, it amounts to an attempt at forcibly partitioning a member state of the UN against its will—and with disregard for the firm opposition of the Security Council," Tadic said.
 
Kosovo’s UDI was an attempt to impose a 19th-century outcome to a 21st-century challenge, he said.
 
"Serbia will never, under any circumstances, implicitly or explicitly, recognise the unilateral declaration of independence of the ethnic-Albanian authorities of our southern province."
 
Serbia would continue to vigorously defend its integrity in a non-confrontational manner—using all peaceful means at its disposal, Tadic said.
 
"That is why, from the very onset of this grave crisis, Serbia ruled out the use of force."
 
Serbia, Tadic said, had chosen to respond to Kosovo’s UDI with "utmost responsibility and restraint".
 
Serbia had opted for a diplomatic approach—the result of which was that a vast majority of UN member states had not recognised Kosovo’s UDI, Tadic said.
 
"They have continued to abide by their UN Charter obligations to respect the sovereignty and territorial integrity of my country.
 
"On behalf of the Republic of Serbia, allow me once again to sincerely thank these countries for their adherence to the principles of international law," Tadic said.
 
He said that, while rejecting violence and unilateralism categorically, Serbia had been equally emphatic in demanding "that justice be delivered through the proper legal means at the disposal of any UN member state".
 
"As a part of our constructive approach, we decided to contest the UDI issue before the principal judicial organ of the United Nations, the International Court of Justice—tasked by United Nations General Assembly resolution to issue an advisory opinion on whether Kosovo’s UDI is in accordance with international law."
 
The International Court of Justice has concluded the preliminary, written phase of its proceedings in the Kosovo UDI case.
 
Verbal hearings are scheduled to begin on December 1 2009, with a decision by the Court expected to be sometime in 2010.
 
"Let me express my sincere gratitude to all those countries which have not recognised Kosovo’s UDI, as well as to those which have chosen to actively support Serbia’s strategic choice to transfer the Kosovo UDI issue to the judicial arena."
 
Tadic said that the Kosovo UDI case marked the first time in the history of the Court that it had been asked to consider the legality of an attempt at secession by an ethnic group from a UN member state.
 
"There is no doubt that the Court’s conclusions will constitute a powerful legal precedent, with over-arching consequences for the United Nations system," Tadic said.
 
"The outcome will either strongly deter other separatist movements from attempting to secede, or produce a result that could encourage them to act in similar fashion. Plainly said, should Kosovo’s UDI be allowed to stand, a door would open for challenging the territorial integrity of any UN member state."
 
He said that the "uniquely important nature" of this case had been acknowledged by the international community. All five permanent members of the Security Council have confirmed their participation in the oral hearings before the ICJ.
 
"It is in this context that I appeal to all member states to respect the fact that the International Court of Justice continues to be actively engaged on the issue. Its deliberations should not be pre-judged, and its work should not be obstructed," Tadic told the General Assembly.
 
"The Court’s proceedings have to be allowed to run their course, unhindered by political pressures, such as further recognitions of Kosovo’s UDI."
 
He urged all states that had not recognised Kosovo "to stay the course".
 
"By maintaining respect for my country’s sovereignty and territorial integrity, together we will help ensure that international law continues to close in on UDI."
 
Tadic said that Serbia’s democracy was secure, "our society has grown strong, and our values are safely entrenched in law".
 
Serbia had demonstrated time and again, through concrete deeds and under difficult circumstances, it determination to become a member of the European Union, he said.
 
Visa-free access to the Schengen zone from January 1 2010 would "bring us closer to Europe, for the right to travel visa-free is an embodiment of what the EU is to everyday citizens of Serbia".
 
Serbia, Tadic said, was "on the cusp" of completing its full co-operation with the International Criminal Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia— "a moral as well as legal obligation to the victims, to ourselves, and most of all, to the generations to come," Tadic said.
 
"As we approach the 20th anniversary of the fall of the Berlin Wall, we must not forget that the objective of bringing together under one roof all the nations of Europe has not yet been achieved.
 
"There is still much work to be done. Enlargement fatigue must not emerge as part of the new reality in Europe. Solidarity must remain high on the agenda. It will never be time to contemplate an exit strategy when it comes to the Western Balkans," Tadic said
 
EU enlargement benefited everyone, old and new and potential EU members alike, he said.
 
"It works beyond our wildest dreams—even in times of economic challenge, and even in times of political demoralisation. It works because the values that bind us to one another are strong, and because they are just."
 
Tadic said that Serbia’s "robust European vision" was complemented by its strong determination to pursue a carefully balanced, artfully executed, and active foreign policy, aimed at engagement with nations throughout the world, near and far.
 
This was in Serbia’s lasting interest, and would not change, he said.
 
"As such, our engagement with Brussels, Moscow, Washington and Beijing—the four lasting pillars of Serbia’s foreign policy—will continue to be strengthened in the time ahead," Tadic said.
 

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Comments

Anonymous George II Thu, Oct 15 2009 12:02 CET

"" The Insult is often more in the mind of the Reader than of the Writer"" -

(Antoine de St Exupery, 1900-1944, French philosopher)

Anonymous Peggy Wed, Oct 14 2009 23:14 CET

George II or should I say Epaminondas,
You cannot recomment anything to me but I would like to recommend a lesson in manners and common courtesy to you. Have a read of what you write before you post it and I think even you will be able to see that it lacks something in common courtesy.
Do you honestly believe that insulting me will make you look smart? I thought that way of thinking went with puberty.

Anonymous George II Wed, Oct 14 2009 13:04 CET

Grateful to Peggy for her spirited and rapid response. Aries and I will have to reflect that clearly some things are differently handled in the Antipodes, such as the usual courtesies common in Europe.

I still recommend to Peggy Prof. Freddie Ayer's book "Language, Truth and Logic", and also Eric Thouless's equally influential book "Straight and Crooked Thinking" (both still available internationally from Amazon.) The titles of both are self-explanatory, and I think Peggy may find them instructive.

If this is not too didactic of me, of course.

AnonymousPeggyWed, Oct 14 2009 12:51 CET

This comment has been removed by the moderator because it contained не е по темата на статията

Anonymous George II Wed, Oct 14 2009 12:05 CET

Now now, Aries, don't be rude to poor sweet Peggy. She just can't help being as she is: strident, insistent, and assertive.

Anonymous Aries Wed, Oct 14 2009 00:19 CET

This comment has been hidden by the moderator because it contained квалификации.

AnonymousGeorge IITue, Oct 13 2009 23:27 CET

This comment has been removed by the moderator because it contained не е по темата на статията

AnonymousPeggyTue, Oct 13 2009 22:52 CET

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Anonymous Aries Tue, Oct 13 2009 14:30 CET

Peggy
Personally when asked to run into a situation and comment on incidents and facts, i go backward in order to find the roots of things which might have caused the fact opr the incident.
"C'EST DE LA MOUTARDE APRES DINNER
"being served mustard after diner"
T

Anonymous Aries Tue, Oct 13 2009 14:05 CET

George II
Thanks a lot for your kind words

Anonymous George II Tue, Oct 13 2009 10:27 CET

Peggy -

What's wrong with Aries ? He knows his facts more than most of us.

Anonymous Peggy Tue, Oct 13 2009 10:12 CET

George II

Mon, Oct 12 2009 13:34 CET

"Well, sincere thanks to Aries for a genuinely informative posting about the history of the region.

Nice to have impartial facts rather than polemic (I'm sure the Moderators will agree !)"

In your opinion. Not everyone thinks that Aries' opinion is impartial or even accurate.
I am not saying that I agree or disagree with him but I'm sure we are all biased one way or another, including Aries.

Anonymous Peggy Mon, Oct 12 2009 22:45 CET

This comment has been hidden by the moderator because it contained квалификации.

Anonymous Branimir Maksimovic Mon, Oct 12 2009 16:58 CET

With all due respect Aries, i also have a brain, and what you may have posted once upon a time, i did not read, but posted what came out of MY HEAD. Thankyou anyway.

The way i think is probably not the way you think or vise versa, how we look at things will be different, we may agree on certain things, but have a different way of expressing ourselves. If you knew how many posts i leave and what i say, that is continously repeated, i dont comment, because if its for the right cause [...]

Read the full comment and rights thoughts, im proud that many more people will share and spread those same views. That is my goal, as it should be yours.

KOSOVO IS SERBIA , the battle has just begun :-)

Anonymous George II Mon, Oct 12 2009 13:34 CET

Well, sincere thanks to Aries for a genuinely informative posting about the history of the region.

Nice to have impartial facts rather than polemic (I'm sure the Moderators will agree !)

AnonymousAriesMon, Oct 12 2009 12:58 CET

This comment has been removed by the moderator because it contained не е по темата на статията

Преглед на профил TSE Moderator Mon, Oct 12 2009 11:02 CET

It seems there are several people here who find it very hard to express their opinion without personal attacks and insults.
If that is all you have to offer, know up front your post will be removed and you will find yourself banned from posting again.

Anonymous Branimir Maksimovic Mon, Oct 12 2009 10:18 CET

Are Srebrenica and Vukovar the only topics that can be brought up when speaking of serbs ?

Why not mention the 300000 serbs who to this day are left homeless from operation Storm in 1995, or the organs taken out of serbs in albania, or the Armed conflicts started in southern serbia and mecedonia by the albanians. Lets go further back and speak about the support Albania played in with the fascist Italians, or Croats with the nazi germans. What about Jasenovac where 700000 people were tortured and killed. Not to mention the many more atrocities [...]

Read the full comment upon the serbian people and its nation.

Srebrenica, Vukovar, Dubrovnik, is only used via media sources as its weight among the general public, and plays its own major role in gaining support for further and continuous damage to the image of serbs.

We speak of Kosovo, yet we mention another City or town, which does not share a common border or consist of the same enemy.

The constitution is important wether you like it or not. Serbs have one! Albania has the worst human rights record in europe, allowing no freedom for its minorites, recently even going a step further and inprisoning a greek minister who placed signs in both greek and albanian.

Many of you simply have no knowledge of your selves let alone the greater picture, the history, geography of the region its peoples. All of a sudden the albanians of the region speak of others, which would be normal, because they have nothing to speak about albania or its diaspora with positivity. What can we say, highest unemplyment in albania and where ever an albanian lives, everything illegal under the books.

Serbia, for instance, has everything its neighbours dream of having, while being continuosly bombarded, prosecuted , degraded within the western media.

There is no point in anything agron forlani, epaminondas say, they have no real argument, they write information published by a 5 min show on there local news, argue about vukovar and srebrenica, but do not mention the situation on the groud in Kosovo or the refusal by albanian authorities to co-operate with the eu on an investigation into organ trafficking. Speak of albanian as angels, and its serbian neighbours as devils, but not once have they stopped and had a look where they are in europe, why they were not offered the chance to be included in the Shengen Zone, why , why , why to so many questions. Its pathetic and becoming stupid, how, and what they choose to speak about. It carries neither weight, nor justifiable statements.

Point is, if a people like the germans with over 80 million in europe where stopped of commiting crimes against humanity, what makes you think the albanians with 10 million wont be stopped from repeated offences, not obeying the law, wether they live in Albania , Serbia(kosovo and Metohija) macedonia, not respecting its constitution, internatitonal law. Do you believe you are such good people, who have done such good deads that god is granting you what ever you wish. Its sad, you are sad, all your arguments, firstly, your illyrian, then arnauti, then arbanasi, now your albanian. Then the argument of mother teresa comes up that you are catholic, whilst burning down churches and cathedrals, then building mosques to show your islamic ties, keeping in mind, the Arab league and muslim nations are not willing to and will not recognise this independence. Its all become too funny, too stupid for the well informed and intelectual people, it may work in a school yard, or at your local shop with your turkish friends, but thats about it. You are simply the man power in use to gain and put into force the interests greater nations have in mind. As the croats were for the sea, macedonians for the central position between serbia bulgaria greece and albania. You are no different. You are not special, you are not the only ones in this region, and with good time, those who commited crimes against the government, constitution and people will have to answer. Like the serbs did and sent all but two people charged by the hague tribunal(which i persoanlly disagree with) but they still did.

With time, and the will, justice and law , everything will come into place and you will suffer like you made many other suffer around you. Then , we can debate over WHY WHY WHY WHY..? Then you can mention srebrenica again, and vukovar. Pathetic, stupid, ignorant, uninformed, unknowledgable , disrespectful Albanians, you will also have to answer for all the bad you have done upon others.!!

Resolution 1244 is in place, Serbias request will begin a new chaptr in this story, beware, be worried, be careful, we are coming, much stronger then before, much moe powerful then ever, with justice and only justice in our mind and the will to put right where wrong has already for so long ruled.

Kosovo is Serbia, Serbia is Kosovo.

AnonymousEpaminondasSun, Oct 11 2009 23:09 CET

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AnonymousPeggySun, Oct 11 2009 23:02 CET

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AnonymousEpaminondasSun, Oct 11 2009 19:02 CET

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AnonymousAgron ForlaniSun, Oct 11 2009 17:03 CET

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Anonymous Peggy Sun, Oct 11 2009 01:04 CET

This comment has been hidden by the moderator because it contained квалификации.

AnonymousPeggySun, Oct 11 2009 00:53 CET

This comment has been removed by the moderator because it contained Кариери квалификации

AnonymousHawkSat, Oct 10 2009 22:51 CET

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AnonymousEpaminondasSat, Oct 10 2009 21:17 CET

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AnonymousHawkSat, Oct 10 2009 20:35 CET

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AnonymousEpaminondasSat, Oct 10 2009 20:13 CET

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AnonymousHawkSat, Oct 10 2009 19:36 CET

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AnonymousEpamonindasSat, Oct 10 2009 18:15 CET

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AnonymousHawkSat, Oct 10 2009 14:50 CET

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AnonymousAriesSat, Oct 10 2009 14:34 CET

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AnonymousEpaminondasSat, Oct 10 2009 13:57 CET

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AnonymousHawkSat, Oct 10 2009 13:27 CET

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AnonymousPeggySat, Oct 10 2009 10:54 CET

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AnonymousEpaminondasSat, Oct 10 2009 10:44 CET

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Anonymous Agron Forlani Sat, Oct 10 2009 10:30 CET

This comment has been hidden by the moderator because it contained квалификации.

Anonymous Epaminondas Sat, Oct 10 2009 10:24 CET

This comment has been hidden by the moderator because it contained квалификации.

AnonymousPeggySat, Oct 10 2009 04:36 CET

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AnonymousPeggySat, Oct 10 2009 04:32 CET

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AnonymousEpaminondasSat, Oct 10 2009 01:23 CET

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AnonymousAriesSat, Oct 10 2009 00:57 CET

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AnonymousPeggySat, Oct 10 2009 00:08 CET

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AnonymousHawkFri, Oct 09 2009 23:06 CET

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Anonymous Agron Forlani Fri, Oct 09 2009 13:49 CET

This comment has been hidden by the moderator because it contained квалификации.

AnonymousEpaminondasFri, Oct 09 2009 13:34 CET

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AnonymousPeggyFri, Oct 09 2009 12:28 CET

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AnonymousEpaminondasFri, Oct 09 2009 00:05 CET

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Anonymous Hawk Thu, Oct 08 2009 22:50 CET

Dear Epaminondas,
For someone who is such an erudite, you are surely full of hate.
That's not good for your health, you know.
So, chill out.
Pull up a pew and have beer.
It'll be much better for you.

AnonymousPeggyThu, Oct 08 2009 22:49 CET

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Anonymous Agron Forlani Thu, Oct 08 2009 22:10 CET

Hawk you are sick

Anonymous Epaminondas Thu, Oct 08 2009 21:53 CET

Hawk -

to answer your questions:

(1) Vukovar - where as an international observer I had to help clear up the mess that the Serbs left. (I chickened out of grave-digging, though, but I have retained my pre-digital photographs, which horrified my UK Ministry colleaugues when I returned.)

(2) "hate" is perhaps too strong a word, and it also depends on the context. For example, I "hate":

- in restaurants, Italians
- on beaches, Germans
- queueing in shops, Italians [...]

Read the full comment again
- at Customer Help Points, Russians
- at immigration control, Americans
- when driving a car, French
- when trying to board a tram,Poles
- when trying to telephone,Spanish
- when ordering from a bar, Dutch
- when renting a flat, Belgians
- in a bar / "baras", Lithuanians
- when parking a car, Portuguese
- having a quiet stroll, Egyptians
- getting lost in town, Swiss
- crossing the road, Moroccans
- buying in a shop, Spaniards
- buying in a supermarket, French
- punctuality, Croats
- death threats, Albanians
- parking tickets, British
- holiday venues, Mongolians
- politics, Greeks
- lavatories, Turks and Russians
- street pavements, Moldovans

That's probably a long enough list of "pet hates", and I'm sure other Sofia Echo readers can contribute some more. The one nationality left off my list is the Bulgarians,whom I found to be universally friendly and helpful.

(I may have omitted Romania from my list, as it would qualify under nearly all headings, especially "animal danger on streets" !)

Anonymous Hawk Thu, Oct 08 2009 20:32 CET

@Epaminondas - Just two simple questions for you:

1.Why do you hate Serbs so much?
2.Is there any other nation in the World you hate more then Serbs?

PS: Apologies for misspelling. As I already said, english is not my native language. Anyway, I could find quite few misspelling in your posts, too, you know.

Looking forward to your answers.;)

AnonymousEpaminondasThu, Oct 08 2009 20:18 CET

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AnonymousHawkThu, Oct 08 2009 19:05 CET

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Anonymous Epaminondas Thu, Oct 08 2009 18:58 CET

Hawk - yes, I'm queuing up at the newly-erected "Shrine to Serbian Martyrs and Saints in the 1991-2001 War Period", erected in Woking UK by donations from the Muslim community, who have their mosque there, and who are magnanimous to a fault.

Anonymous Hawk Thu, Oct 08 2009 18:09 CET

My dear @Epaminondas,

You are still here?

Anonymous Epaminondas Thu, Oct 08 2009 17:59 CET

Yes, Hawk, and I'm sure that the massacre at Srebrenica was all a bit of a misunderstanding really, as Serbs were nowhere near the place when it happened. Likewise at Vukovar, when the town was devasted by Croatian and Slovenian troops wearing stolen Serb / JNA uniforms, aided by a few Hungarian irregulars from Vojvodina....

Pull the other one - it's got bells on it ! (as we say in the UK)

Anonymous Hawk Thu, Oct 08 2009 17:25 CET

@Baz the Albanian
"Strange to hear that all of a sudden Serbs start speaking about constitution and its violations. One question to those people- are ethnic cleansing, massacres of civilians and exodus allowed by the charter of serb constitution? ..."

Pure Albanian propaganda.
Ethnic cleansing, massacres of civilians and exodus never happened in Kosovo.
Those are just sheer lies. Everyone who want to check the facts could visit the site of Serbian Human Rights Watch. Yesterday, they released newest data on what was happened in Kosovo during 1998-2000.
[...]

Read the full comment So, Albanians nationalists, stop spreading the hatred among honest K-Albanian people. You could not lie to them anymore.
They know that their future lies in Serbia. Only by uniting with their motherland they could count on prosperous future for them and their families.
Enough with lies & hate.
Give peace and trust a chance.

Anonymous Baz the Albanian Thu, Oct 08 2009 14:17 CET

"he said, in direct violation of Serbia’s constitution, and the basic principles of the UN Charter"

Strange to hear that all of a sudden serbs start speaking about constitution and its violations. One question to those people- are ethnic cleansing, massacres of civilians and exodus allowed by the charter of serb constitution? If not why the hell do YOU people first of all voilate you own constitution but want others to respect it. Funny ppl these serbz...

AnonymousEpaminondasWed, Oct 07 2009 17:09 CET

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AnonymousPeggyWed, Oct 07 2009 12:48 CET

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AnonymousEpaminondasWed, Oct 07 2009 10:30 CET

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AnonymousPeggyWed, Oct 07 2009 09:39 CET

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AnonymousEpaminondasWed, Oct 07 2009 00:43 CET

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AnonymousPeggyTue, Oct 06 2009 23:16 CET

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Anonymous Agron Forlani Tue, Oct 06 2009 19:22 CET

sorry to you and of all normal people .but not te serbs..some people like serbs dont understand the normal way of behaving ,Thats why i have to go ine very rud way..sorry once again for all of normal people.special for you sorry epamin dondas

AnonymousEpminondasTue, Oct 06 2009 19:10 CET

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Anonymous Agron Forlani Tue, Oct 06 2009 18:51 CET

This comment has been hidden by the moderator because it contained квалификации.

AnonymousEpaminondasTue, Oct 06 2009 17:06 CET

This comment has been removed by the moderator because it contained не е по темата на статията

AnonymousPeggyMon, Oct 05 2009 23:08 CET

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AnonymousEpaminondasMon, Oct 05 2009 12:23 CET

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AnonymousPeggySun, Oct 04 2009 23:12 CET

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AnonymousEpaminondasSun, Oct 04 2009 12:04 CET

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Anonymous Agron Forlani Sun, Oct 04 2009 06:15 CET

This comment has been hidden by the moderator because it contained квалификации.

AnonymousPeggySun, Oct 04 2009 03:00 CET

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AnonymousPeggySun, Oct 04 2009 02:52 CET

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Anonymous Epaminondas Sat, Oct 03 2009 21:59 CET

Well, Hawk, first of all about Slovenia / Slovenija. When Slovenija left Jugoslavija in 1991 it was rather like beheading a chicken: the rest of the body ran around in circles squawking madly, whilst the brains of the outfit (i.e. Slovenija) quietly went elsewhere. There was even a website set up for this (link immediately below) as the geographical shape of Slovenia on the map is like a chicken:

http://www.matkurja.com/en/country-info/

..and the Slovene word for a mother hen is indeed mat'kurja.

Secondly, for this reason [...]

Read the full comment I am not surprised that a few Slovene 'wide boys' came down south and ripped off the Serbian and Croatian peasants. The Slovenes had the intelligence and the experience, and the other lot only knew brute force. I do not pardon it, but I can see how it happened ! All the intellectual and business know-how of Federativna Jugoslavija was in and around Ljubljana, not Beograd.

Thirdly, I do not mind in the least "challenging" an emininent academic friend of yours who has "spent his life studying Slavonic languages". So have I - only he did his in academia, and I did mine in government (I even covered Baltic languages too, though Estonian is profoundly difficult. Lithuanian, in contrast, is relatively easy.)

Fourthly, as any fule kno, one only does professional translations into one's native tongue, not out of it. Meanwhile, just as a "taster", try (a) to pronounce this one, and (b) to translate it. I can assure you the text is genuine:

<< W Szczebrzeszcinie chrzaszcz brzmi w Trczinie i tez we Wrzeszczu z stolem z duplymi poliganymi nogami >> (Any Slav-speaker can spot the triple plural adjective / noun instrumental case at the end, which makes it relatively straighforward.)

Labakaktis jums

AnonymousHawkSat, Oct 03 2009 21:10 CET

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Anonymous Epaminondas Sat, Oct 03 2009 20:41 CET

Sorry - I forgot Prague / Praha, where it's "pivo, prosim" too.

AnonymousEpaminondasSat, Oct 03 2009 20:40 CET

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AnonymousHawkSat, Oct 03 2009 19:39 CET

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Anonymous Epaminondas Sat, Oct 03 2009 17:19 CET

Among which, my dear / moj drugi Hawk, is that the grammar of Serbo-Croat is not just restricted to former Jugoslavija - it is also virtually the same in Czech, Slovak, Polish, and Lusatian.

(I am afraid I rather embarrassed my Croatian hosts by correctly deciphering rather a complicated piece of newspaper prose by using Polish grammar and vocabulary to get a 97% correct result.) This was not possible, they told me, but it was so (

I think all parts of former Jugoslavija except for Slovenia had a very "blinkered" viewpoint [...]

Read the full comment about how they and their language(s) fitted into the wider outside world. )

AnonymousEpaminondasSat, Oct 03 2009 17:13 CET

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Anonymous Hawk Sat, Oct 03 2009 16:44 CET

Dear Epaminondas,
It seems to me that, for someone who spent 9 months in the area, and because of that feels he is some kind of an expert for languages on the former Yugoslavia, you are on some serious ego-trip.
On the other hand, I cannot understand how on Earth you succeeded to diverged us from the the topic of the article to the discussion about Serbian and Croatian languages. But, anyway...

Your statement that Croatians could not read Cyrillic alphabet is ridiculous. Of course they could read Cyrillic - every one [...]

Read the full comment of them. It is completely different question if Croatians want to read Cyrillic, or not. From my experience I concluded that they despise everything that comes from Serbia, including Cyrillic alphabet. Conclusion - Every single Croat could read Cyrillic alphabet - but they simply don't want to do that since they consider Cyrillic alphabet as a something beneath them.
So, if they told you that they cannot read Cyrillic, they lied to you. And you believed them. Or did you?

Second thing: I don't want to state that Croatian and Serbian are the same language, but they are extremely similar.
Similarity of the languages could not be measured by the number of different words, but by its grammar. And both Croats and Serbs (together with Bosniaks and Montenegrans) use absolutely the same grammar. And syntax of those languages are absolutely the same. Even the number of different words which depict the same term are less then 10%.

So, stop inflicting on us your quasi scientific theories. No use, since, as far as I could conclude, Peggi is someone who is at least born in former YU, which gives her unmeasurable advantage over you in respect to the former YU lingoes.
As far as I am concerned I've spent little more then 4.5 years in B&H and Kosovo as a part of intl. administration. And I've visited Belgrade & Zagreb (and other cities all around former YU except Slovenia) countless times. Although I never had an urge to learn the lingoes, I know perfectly well that they perfectly understand each other (apart from Albanians), since everyone of them have tried to teach me to swear on their language. And every single curse was generally the same.

So enough with "former YU languages gobbledygook".
My point was to try to explain to others that you are not impartial as you like to portrait yourself, but very biased - and that is against the Serbs.
So, it would be fair of you to admit that, so that we could go from this point on.
All the best.

Anonymous Epaminondas Sat, Oct 03 2009 11:12 CET

Sorry - "federalised" can have two different meanings ! It would have been clearer if I had said "devolved to the constituent repbublics"

Apologies to all.

AnonymousEpaminondasSat, Oct 03 2009 10:03 CET

This comment has been removed by the moderator because it contained не е по темата на статията

AnonymousPeggySat, Oct 03 2009 02:56 CET

This comment has been removed by the moderator because it contained не е по темата на статията

Anonymous Epaminondas Sat, Oct 03 2009 01:05 CET

Just a quick note on one of your points, Hawk - the graffiti in Vukovar were in cyrilitsa/ Cyrillic alphabet, and Croats use the latinitsa / Latin alphabet, and apparently are not taught to read cyrilitsa (of which the "lower case" - handwriting script - really can be quite hard to decipher, even for me who knows the same script from Russian. )

Serbs in Belgrade of course use both - probably more latinitsa in practice - but those soldier boys only used cyrilitsa. And they couldn't spell too well either, so the word 'korva' or [...]

Read the full comment 'kurva' was often spelled 'korova', which of course means "cow", rather than the rather ruder word that they intended.

I hold no brief and have no particular liking for the Albanian Embassy in London, though I have a soft spot for the Moldovan Embassy, who thought they were buying prime real estate in Dolphin Square, London SW1, and ended up in the middle of a council estate (I think it's called "public housing" in the US) in Dolphin Square, London W5, 15 km from the centre.

Anonymous Hawk Fri, Oct 02 2009 23:23 CET

Well, Epaminondas, Vukovar is not a theme of this article, so if you want to talk about it, we could continue on some other site. Just want to say you are absolutely right. Clashes in Vukovar lasted from May to November 1991. I did not read your post carefully though made a mistake criticizing you.
Instead of arguing about Vukovar, I would like to point out couple of things because of which I still consider your impartiality very questionable.

•Your statement that Croats could not understand Serbian graffiti.

That is [...]

Read the full comment absurd statement. Serbian and Croatian languages are so similar that they could understand each other perfectly! Difference between Serbian and Croatian is as similar to the difference between British English & American English. Practically non existent.

•Your statement that all the villages in the area of 30 km around Vukovar were destroyed.

Simply not true. I was there during 2,5 months, witnessing most fearsome fighting, and during that time I visited more then 30 surrounding villages. I will give you couple of its names which are at the top of my head: Adasevic, Niemci, Podgradie... etc (have problem with complicated Slavic spelling). Not a single house was destroyed. Just a couple of them were damaged. (most of the houses were looted, but that's another story). I have my own collection of photos, and be glad to send you if you are interested. If you need more village names, no problem, will tell you, but must consult my diary.
•Your constant persistence to use Albanian Embassy in London as a reliable source of information.

Not a single self respected impartial observer of events anywhere in the world should allow himself to rely on the data issued by one side included in the conflict. By defending Albanian Embassy you are taking one side. I'll give you a hint. Do you really believe, if Albanian claim that 50% of Albanian population are Christians, that Vatican would not recognize K-Albanian UDI same day they announced it? Think little bit about that.

I don't want to talk about 350 000 ethnically cleansed Serbs and non-Albanians who are forbid to return to their homes in Kosovo. I don't want to talk about Serb and non-Albanian enclaves surrounded by barbed wire and protected by KFOR soldiers night and day from Albanian KLA terrorist. I don't want to talk about your questioning the number of destroyed and annihilated Christian Churches and Monasteries through out the Kosovo.
...
Impartial observer must consider all the facts. Must cross-check all evidence... Even the claims that there were "1.5 million Albanian refugees" and "that 1200 towns cities and villages were destroyed in Kosovo".
And when that observer finish cross-checking the facts, the he should know who's lying and who's telling the truth.
Unfortunately, since you are already chose the side (against Serbs), you are jumping to conclusions before you even start checking the facts.
Therefore I still think that you are not "neutral on the matter", but to the contrary - you are very biased.
No offense.
All the best.

Anonymous Epaminondas Fri, Oct 02 2009 21:53 CET

Hawk - ok; fair point. You wanted another link about Vukovar: here it is (apparently prepared by a joing Croatian/Serbian task force !!) Says much the same thing as Wikipedia, but from a much more overtly bipartisan source:

http://www.b92.net/specijal/vukovar-eng/

My understanding is that the Vukovar siege took place from May until late November 1991 - do you agree with that ? (I still have my own personal photos, but they are pre-digital, so I will need to scan them.)

As regards the Albanian Embassy in [...]

Read the full comment London, I would only regard them as a Grade I source about Albania's own demographics (such as religion, though the Gheg/Tosk ethnic division rather complicates things !) Hence my comment about Albania's existing religious demographics.

Sincere apologies for any insult mistakenly conveyed - none was intended !

Personally, I would as soon visit Albania as I would have one of my toenails removed without anaesthetic ! If I want to go somewhere slightly primitive in Eastern Europe and riven by blood feuds, I will happily return to Moldova (nice place once you get to know it nobody speaks English, but everybody speaks Russian, and also their own incomprehensible Romanian dialect !)

Anonymous Agron Forlani Fri, Oct 02 2009 20:57 CET

This comment has been hidden by the moderator because it contained квалификации.

Anonymous Hawk Fri, Oct 02 2009 20:28 CET

Dear Epaminondas,
First to answer your question. Your English is immaculate, and it is pure joy to read your posts. I suppose that your Russian is immaculate, too.
Unfortunately, English is not my native language since I'm not third generation living in America. So, please forgive my spelling and grammar. Anyway, I believe you understand me quite well.
Secondly, I never meant to be rude to you. If I made some mistakes which led you to believe that my intention was to be rude to you, please forgive me once again. I know that [...]

Read the full comment you are noble man and that you'll do that.
Also, I believe, being a nobleman, you'll apologize to me, since I believe you have insulted me, too. Unintentionally, of course.
Believing that you also speak excellent Hungarian, since I saw you know derivation of word Il(l)ok, I must state that I am very satisfied you find my post about that town wrong just in term of misspelling its name.
As far as Wikipedia is concerned, you'll agree with me that it is little bit strange that you are able to cross-check data posted there, but you are not able to cross-check propaganda sheets issued by "Albanian Embassy in London" and you still consider it as a "relevant source of information."
And at the end, being Albanian fan yourself, I would strongly suggest you to visit it ASAP, or you'll miss the chance to see the land of opportunity and adventure, first hand.
All the best.

PS: This is not a theme of this article, bust since you raised it, I must say that you don't know sh...kwat about Vukovar. You've placed war the whole year earlier!

Anonymous Epaminondas Fri, Oct 02 2009 19:45 CET

Hawk - if you're going to be rude, it helps to spell English and also local place names correctly. The name "ILOK" (which is actually derived from the Hungarian) only has one "L". Unless, of course, you mean somewhere different.....

Nothing wrong with Wikipedia, as long as one cross-checks a bit. I find - from my personal experience in Vukovar in the late 1990s (rather later than you were there) - that the account it gives sounds reasonably veridical and is certainly not one-sided.

You never did answer my question about whether [...]

Read the full comment my grasp of English was adequate for you......perhaps it would have been inconvenient to do so.

Just for the record, I have never been to Albania (the only country in SE Europe that I have not visited), I have no connections there, and the only Albanian word that I know is "grumbullimit". (Which actually - transliterated into English - sounds a bit like your posting.)

You should learn Russian - it's a useful language.

Anonymous Hawk Fri, Oct 02 2009 19:10 CET

My dear Epaminondas,

Get serious. Don't post Wikipedia as a relevant source of historic information. We all know on which basis Wikipedia is functioning.

As far as I am concerned, article you are pointing to, could be written by you.

So, it is not fair from you to quote yourself as a relevant source of information.

Please, respect readers of this posts. Don't treat them as idiots.

Anonymous Hawk Fri, Oct 02 2009 19:05 CET

My dear Epaminondas,
Your posts are very far from any kind of criticism, not to mention your "constructiveness".
You are obviously pro-Albanian fan (maybe even an K-Albanian propagandist), who's trying to cover that fact by lame attempts to portrait himself as a "naive and unbiased observer". But you cover is weak. And I'll prove your ill-willed provocations in just a few words.
Illok is not a village but a town situated on the right bank of the river Danube. Tito's communists gave that town to Croatia, despite the fact that it never belonged to [...]

Read the full comment Croats. By 1981. census, national structure was: 41% Croats, 37% Serbs, and 22% others (including, in that time, so-called Yugoslavs - which were mainly Serbs who declared themselves as Yugoslavs - tito's followers). When clashes between JNA (Yugoslav Peoples Army) and Croat forces started in june 1991., town of Illok was instantly put under control of JNA. Listen to this: NOT A SINGLE BULLET WAS SHOT during the period town of Illok was under Serbian control. More then half of pre-war Croat population remained in town of Illok all the time during the conflict. ILLLOK was the only town in combat zone, in which NOT A SINGLE BUILDING WAS DAMAGED!! And you are talking about some winery and heroic deeds of Croats who managed to hide crucial parts of it?!?! Knock, knock. Hello? Is anybody in there?
Give us a break and next time post something from the real world - and not from your vivid imagination.

As far as "Albanian Embassy in London" as a "reliable source of information" is concerned - you must be joking! Albanians are in the middle of the project of creating Greater Albania, and you are using their propaganda sheets as facts?! 50% Christians in Albania?! Wow, you must be on some heavy stuff.
And you have courage to ask me which other source you should consult with respect of the Albanian religion "composition". Sad, very sad. As your good friend Agron said: "Read my post little more careful". I have already posted one relevant source, but if you're not satisfied with it, you are free to consult even CIA fact-book, although we all now that CIA's instructors trained Albanian KLA terrorist. Even they didn't dare to forge the facts.

And with respect to your comment on Russians, unfortunately I don't speak Russian but I just want to say to you that I spoke to the American embassy staff here in Buchuresti, and they told me America is very angry on Kosovo Albanian political elite because they continued, despite numerous American warnings, to smuggle drugs, guns and people all over the Euripe and US. Therefore new US administration decided that Kosovo will be returned to Serbia by the fall 2012, as a only solution to once again establish law and order in that place.
I know this is a bad news for you, but, ces't la vie.
All the best.

Anonymous Epaminondas Fri, Oct 02 2009 18:49 CET

I hope you find my grasp of English to be satisfactory.

Here is the Wikipedia link to the whole story of the Battle of Vukovar, which only ended in early December 1991:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Vukovar

The link seems to me to be reasonably impartial, as it heavily criticises both sides. Certainly the pictures that it includes reflect the devastation that I peronally witnessed in the late 1990s. If you were there in mid-1991, you probably didn't see it all as it was a gradual process from May [...]

Read the full comment to December 1991 inclusive, getting much worse at the end of the siege (when the Serbs restructured their military operation to make it much more efficient.) And certainly the centre of the town was f-l-a-t-t-e-n-e-d. It looked like Warsaw in 1945.

The other problem with the villages around was that those houses that had not been destroyed by the Serbs had been mined by the Serbs, so it was impossible for the civilian population to return. (I still remember the Serbian graffiti on the walls, which knowing Russian I could read, whereas my Hungarian and Croatian hosts could not. The graffiti were pretty bloodthirsty...)

No way that this was not a War Crime, and the 'bratskoie mogile' (mass graves) all around the town will confirm this for decades to come.

Bravo, Serbia, the VJ and JNA did a good job round there !

Anonymous Hawk Fri, Oct 02 2009 17:49 CET

Dear Agron Forlani,
In every single post, your English is rather worsening. As a THIRD GENERATION of Albanians in America, you're surly aware of that.
As for the lies vs reality, I could not help you to come out of your fake wold of Albanian myths, legends and megalomania of "1.5 million refugees, 1200 towns in Kosovo, Greater Albania", etc. That is damnation you choose by yourself.
The pity is that your kind is making difficult to honest K-Albanians, which are very afraid of your sort, to do what is inevitable - to reconcile [...]

Read the full comment with their motherland Serbia as they and their families could pursue normal and prosperous life, they don't have now.

Anonymous Epaminondas Fri, Oct 02 2009 16:09 CET

Well, Hawk, clearly you don't react well to constructive criticism !

As regards Vukovar, let me just give you the one example of the village of Ilok (ILOK) nearby - I think the furthest east village in Croatia. The Serbs destroyed the lot, and also the winery that gave the village its employment. (Or so they thought !) Unfortunately, the Croats had hidden the vital parts of the winery and its cellars underground, which was not discovered by the (drunken) Serb forces. So, once the Serbs had retreated, the Croatians were able to re-start the winery, [...]

Read the full comment with the workforce living in caravans and tents, but at least they had jobs !

I am not sure which other source you would wish me to take to ascertain the religious composition of Albanian nationals - if the Albanian Embassy isn't good enough, I suppose I could always ask the Russians ? (Not sure the Russian Embassy here is particularly fond of the Serbs, though - last time I spoke to them, they said "Smrt Srbom !". Which I don't think is very polite ! (And yes, I do know just what it means in Russian !)

S uvazheniem

Anonymous Agron Forlani Fri, Oct 02 2009 16:07 CET

Hawk i fell sorry about you cuz you lost the difrence between lie and reality.you know what its very sed when you belive in your lies..
For you opinion HAWK everybody is wrong and you have right ncncnccnnc
cuz you are serbian and serbians they have allways right..shame an you hawk.

Anonymous Hawk Fri, Oct 02 2009 15:57 CET

Dear Epaminondas,
Don't try to confuse the issue in the name of your so-called "impartiality".
Your attempt to give the benefit of the doubt to the guy who shamelessly posted lie of gargantuan proportion about 1.5 million refugees, seriously jeopardize your credibility of "impartial observer" as you like to portrait yourself. When you caught someone in such shameless lie, it is absurd to even try to believe his other statements.
Your "neutrality on the issue" is questioned once again when you state "Albanian Embassy in London" as your source of information about number of [...]

Read the full comment Catholics among Albanian population?! "Albanian Embassy in London" as a neutral source of information?! Give me a break!! (BTW, there is no Kosovar nation - don't try to input lies in your posts)
The truth is that there is no more then 3% of Albanian population which are Christians. And even they are suffocated by their Albanian compatriots who are Muslims. In Kosovo there is not a single Christian religious object build by Albanians! All of them are built by Serbs! Don't play innocent and naive with that, or no one will ever believe you're unbiased.
And cherry on the cake of your "neutrality" is casting the doubts on the figures I posted! KLA Albanian terrorists ethnically cleansed 350 000 Serbs and non-Albanians. So, what do you think - in how many villages those 350 000 people have lived? Three? But worst of all is your questioning the number of Christian Churches and Monasteries Albanian KLA terrorist destroyed in Kosovo. It is very shameful of you to question that figure. Even that guy Agron didn't dare to question that figure, since he knows it is true. If you are really "impartial", you could google little bit around and find exact figures about vastness of destruction of Christian religious sites in Kosovo made by Albanian KLA terrorists. But, in case you are too lazy to do that, please follow the link. You could find many useful information about atrocities Albanian KLA terrorists imposed on innocent Serb and non-Albanians civilians in Kosovo:
http://www.kosovo.net/destruction.html

And to conclude the blowing up your cover of "neutrality" - by the chance I spent 2,5 months (October-December 1991) around Vukovar. Though indeed SOME PARTS of the town were destroyed, your claim that Serbs destroyed every single village in the circle of 30 km around Vukovar is simply ridiculous. Not a single village was destroyed! Some houses were damaged (2 or 3 per village), but the claim that the whole villages were destroyed is a notorious lie. The proof of that is that when Croatia regained control over that territory, villagers just returned to their villages and homes and continue to live normal life.
So, my dear Epaminondas, next time when you post, don't play innocent and unbiased observer. You are very biased and that is in the favor of Albanian side. You have every right to express your opinion, but at least be honest and say that you are Albanian fan.
Aside the fact that with those kind of posts you're spreading around, you are making difficult for those honest and peaceful Kosovo Albanians to reconcile with its motherland Serbia with the prospect of living normal and prosperous lives, unlike they are living now.
All the best.

Anonymous Epaminondas Fri, Oct 02 2009 12:22 CET

Addendum - as regards the claim by Hawk that the KLA "erased from the face of the earth 300 Serbian villages", I think we would need some objective corroboration of this figure, which seems high.

(When it comes to "erasing villages", the Serbs themselves don't do too badly; I personally witnessed the destruction round Vukovar, and there wasn't much left standing. These were domestic houses that were destroyed, not military installations. There was not a village that survived for about 30 km around. )

Two wrongs do not make a right, but [...]

Read the full comment it may be that the Kosovo Serbs reaped what their fellow Serbs had sown in Srebrenice and Vukovar.

AnonymousEpaminondasFri, Oct 02 2009 11:44 CET

This comment has been removed by the moderator because it contained не е по темата на статията

Anonymous Agron Forlani Fri, Oct 02 2009 01:55 CET

If you red carefully the text you will understand .

Anonymous Epaminondas Thu, Oct 01 2009 17:33 CET

Being fairly neutral in this debate, I can't nonethless escape the feeling that Agron has got his numbers wrong somewhere. There just ain't as many people (or houses) in the entire region as he claims - unless he's managed to include half of southern Italy !

AnonymousHawkThu, Oct 01 2009 10:47 CET

This comment has been removed by the moderator because it contained не е по темата на статията

AnonymousAgron ForlaniThu, Oct 01 2009 07:22 CET

This comment has been removed by the moderator because it contained не е по темата на статията

Anonymous Hawk Thu, Oct 01 2009 01:16 CET

Addendum:

Your last sentence clearly shows where your subconsciousness is pushing you.

Anonymous Hawk Thu, Oct 01 2009 01:14 CET

Dear Agron,
Next time when you try to post lies, try to be little (or better to say much, much...) more subtle and convincing. With such ridiculous statements you posted on your last post, you are making fool of yourself and making very hard even to professional Albanian propagandist to convince others to believe in their lies they are posting all over the net. Albanian credibility is already very low. If you continue like that, it'll hit rock bottom.
I wouldn't waste time of honest people by challenge your ridiculous claims one by one. Instead I'll [...]

Read the full comment just point out couple of them, from which the other readers could clearly see the extent of your lies.

•You claim there were 1.5 mill Albanian refugees! That is lie of such proportions that even famous NATO's Jaimie Shea didn't dare to go that far. He claimed there were 800 000 refugees, and even that was a lie. UNHCR confirmed that there were about 100 000 "refugees", of which at least 80 000 was brutally forced to leave their homes by Albanian KLA terrorists, with an aim to create the picture of "humanitarian catastrophe".

•You claim that 1200 cities were destroyed! Whatta ridiculous statement! One could hardly count 1200 cities in the whole Europe, and you're claiming that there is 1200 cities in Kosovo! HA, HA, HA, HA!

•Biggest looting and pillaging happened after NATO entered Kosovo. KLA terrorists ethnically cleansed 350 000 Serbs and non-Albanians, and pillaged and burned to the ground more then 100 000 of their homes, houses and farms. More then 300 Serbian villages were wiped out from the face of the earth by Albanian KLA terrorists.

•Cultural genocide - More then 200 Christian Churches (many of them built in 11th and 12th century AD), were blown up and burned to the ground by Albanian KLA terrorists, with an aim to annihilate any existence of Christianity on the territory Kosovo which was under Albanian control.

•More then 350 Christian graveyards were destroyed, with the same aim. But the true horror is that in towns of Gjakovica and Pec, Albanian KLA terrorist, now turn "entrepreneurs", build residential houses on the remains of Christian graveyards.

•And most ridicules lie by any extent is your claim about, as you put it, "medical neutrality". During the war Serb medical staff helped thousands sick and wounded Albanian men, women and children even to the dentrimet of Serb women and children. Even now, du to the lack of qualified Albanian medical staff, many Albanian women go to the Serbia (towns of Nis, Leskovac and Vranje) to give a birth. And they are treated by Serbian medical staff in the best possible way. And those grateful women and their families will be firs who'll embrace Serbia as they motherland once again. And they will be on the forefront of new era of mutual understanding and harmony between Serbia and its Kosovo Albanians.

So, you may keep on dreaming and continue to live in your la-la land of lies and deceit, but longer you continue to live in that imaginary world, harder will be your clash with the reality. So, my friendly advice to you is - wake up ASAP, since Balkans need peace and harmony.

I wish you all the best, and much more lies.

Anonymous Agron Forlani Thu, Oct 01 2009 00:35 CET

This comment has been hidden by the moderator because it contained квалификации.

AnonymousPeggyThu, Oct 01 2009 00:17 CET

This comment has been removed by the moderator because it contained не е по темата на статията

Anonymous Agron Forlani Wed, Sep 30 2009 22:42 CET

(Correction my last words) ..THAT S WHY kosova will never be under serbia NEVER..
For you hawk..

Anonymous Agron Forlani Wed, Sep 30 2009 22:35 CET

Death represents only one facet of Serbian actions in Kosovo.Over 1.5 million Kosovar Albanians--at least 90 percent of the estimated 1998 Kosovar Albanian population of Kosovo--were forcibly expelled from their homes. Tens of thousands of homes in at least 1,200 cities, towns, and villages have been damaged or destroyed. During the conflict, Serbian forces and paramilitaries implemented a systematic campaign to ethnically cleanse Kosovo--aspects of this campaign include the following:


• Forcible Displacement of Kosovar Albanian Civilians: Serbian authorities conducted a campaign of forced population movement. In contrast to actions taken during 1998, Yugoslav [...]

Read the full comment Army units and armed civilians joined the police in systematically expelling Kosovar Albanians at gunpoint from both villages and larger towns in Kosovo.

• Looting of Homes and Businesses: There are numerous reports of Serbian forces robbing residents before burning their homes. Another round of robbery occurred as Serbian forces stole from fleeing Kosovars as they crossed the border to Montenegro, Albania, or Macedonia.

• Widespread Burning of Homes: Over 1,200 residential areas were at least partially burned after late March, 1999. Kosovar Albanians have reported that over 500 villages were burned after March, 1999.

• Use of Human Shields: Refugees claim that Serbian forces used Kosovar Albanians to escort military convoys and shield facilities throughout the province. Other reporting indicates that Serbian forces intentionally positioned ethnic Albanians at sites they believed were targets for NATO airstrikes.

• Detentions: Serbian forces systematically separated military-aged men from the general population as Kosovars were expelled. These men were detained in facilities ranging from cement factories to prisons. Many of these detainees were forced to dig trenches and were physically abused. At least 2,000 Kosovar Albanians remain in detention in around a dozen Serbian prisons today.

• Summary Executions: There are accounts of summary executions at about 500 sites across Kosovo.

• Exhumation of Mass Graves: Serbian forces burned, destroyed, or exhumed bodies from mass graves in an attempt to destroy evidence. Some were reinterred in individual graves.

• Rape: There are numerous accounts indicating that the organized and individual rape of Kosovar Albanian women by Serbian forces was widespread. For example, Serbian forces systematically raped women in GJAKOV and Peja, and in some cases rounded up women and took them to hotels where they were raped by troops under encouragement of their commanders. Rape is most likely an underreported atrocity because of the stigma attached to the victims in traditional Kosovar Albanian society.

• Violations of Medical Neutrality: Kosovar Albanian physicians, patients and medical facilities were systematically attacked. Many health care facilities were used as protective cover for military activities; NGOs report the destruction by Serbian forces of at least 100 clinics, pharmacies, and hospitals.

• Identity Cleansing: Kosovar Albanians were systematically stripped of identity and property documents including passports, land titles, automobile license plates, identity cards, and other forms of documentation. As much as 50 percent of the population may be without documentation. By systematically destroying schools, places of worship, and hospitals, Serbian forces sought to destroy social identity and the fabric of Kosovar Albanian society.

• Aftermath: Following the withdrawal of Serbian forces in June, Kosovo saw manifestations of a new set of human rights problems. In addition, as many as 23,000 conscientious objectors, draft evaders, and deserters in Serbia are threatened with legal action.........And much more..
Now dream on .That kosovo will be under serbia NEVER ..





Anonymous Hawk Wed, Sep 30 2009 22:20 CET

It saddens me very much when I see yet another one who falls for Albanian propaganda.
Mrs.Del Ponte did acknowledge 11000 victims in 1999., but made correction in 2001, on the number of war victims in Kosovo - and stated the number of about 9500.
That number included about 3500 Serb and non-Albanian civilian victims who died of NATO bombs and who were killed by K-Albanian terrorist group KLA. Of that number, about 1950 Serb and non-Albanian victims are not discovered yet, since it is believed that most of them are buried in mass graves in [...]

Read the full comment neighboring Albania (since they were taken there due to the Albanian organ trafficking crime) - and thus will probably never be discovered, since Albania refuse to cooperate with the international institutions.
Among 6000 Albanian victims are (1) Albanian civilian victims killed by NATO bombs (about 1000), (2) Albanian civilians executed by their own, i.e KLA - because they were accused of imaginary collaboration with Serbs (about 1500 of them),(which was not true. They were killed because they didn't support terrorist KLA), and (3) K-Albanians killed by KLA in Albania because of organ trafficking (about 150).
If you add up those figures, it could be easily seen that, during the 1999 war, Serb forces killed about 3200 Albanians - of which about 2500 were KLA terrorist. So, only about 700 Albanian victims fell as a collateral damage of the fierce fighting between Serbian Army and Albanian KLA terrorist and NATO. And all of their remains were discovered long time ago, unlike remains of Serbian and non-Albanian victims.
Every crime is horrible, and Serbian civilians suffered very much, having in mind that more then 3500 Serbian civilians fell as a collateral damage of NATO bombs outside territory of Kosovo - in towns of Belgrade, Nis, Novi Sad etc.
So, good hearten Albanians, who didn't commit any crimes will, with a great joy, return to Serbia, since they know that their and future of their families will be secured once Serbia return its sovereignty over Kosovo.
And I look forward to that moment when Serbs and Albanians will live once again in peace and harmony all over the Kosovo & Metohia.
And no hatemongers could prevent that. It is in all our best interest to make the Balkans stabile region one again.
All the best.

Anonymous Agron Forlani Wed, Sep 30 2009 16:55 CET

For you Hawk
On November 10, 1999, ICTY Chief Prosecutor Carla Del Ponte told the U.N. Security Council that her office had received reports of more than 11,000 killed in 529 reported mass grave and killing sites in Kosovo. The Prosecutor said her office had exhumed 2,108 bodies from 195 of the 529 known mass graves. This would imply about 6,000 bodies in mass graves in Kosovo if the 334 mass graves not examined thus far contain the same average number of victims. To this total must be added three important categories of victims: (1) those buried in [...]

Read the full comment mass graves whose locations are unknown, (2) what the ICTY reports is a significant number of sites where the precise number of bodies cannot be counted, and (3) victims whose bodies were burned or destroyed by Serbian forces. Press accounts and eyewitness accounts provide credible details of a program of destruction of evidence by Serbian forces throughout Kosovo and even in Serbia proper. The number of victims whose bodies have been burned or destroyed may never be known, but enough evidence has emerged to conclude that probably around 10,000 Kosovar Albanians were killed by Serbian forces.
Now tell me Hawk who its going to live with serbs ???????

Anonymous Hawk Wed, Sep 30 2009 16:27 CET

Like anyone believe you, Agron, that you're THIRD generation in America. Especially because of your "immaculate" English, not to mention your spelling.
So, keep on dreaming to be an American, but unfortunately for you and your hate-mongering compatriots, despite your enormous efforts to dig up the territory of Kosovo from where it is now, and move it to America, Kosovo will always stay where it is, and therefore Serbia will always be "above your head".
So, my friendly advice to you is to stop living in your imaginary la-la land and face the reality. Return to [...]

Read the full comment your motherland, Serbia, and you an your family will have prosperous future. If you refuse to return under auspices of Serbia, then you'll not just loose part of Kosovo in which K-Albanians are majority for now, but you'll be cut out of Europe as a rotten appendix. Its up to you to decide, but I hope sincerely that you'll decision will be in favor of your and the bright future of your children.
All the best.

Anonymous Agron Forlani Wed, Sep 30 2009 16:11 CET

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Anonymous Hawk Wed, Sep 30 2009 14:27 CET

My dear Agron Forlani,

I can't stop you to live in your la-la land of dreams, deceits and wishful thinking.
If game is really over, then K-Albanians wouldn't have to obey every little condition EULEX and UNMIK impose to you, and of course, would be member of UN.
So, the Game is very far from its end, and it'll be over only and only when you, K-Albanians secure Serbian signature on your so-called "independence".
And I just wonder how are you planning to secure that signature.?
I say [...]

Read the full comment it'll be very hard.
So, your only chance for bright and better future is to come back under prosperous auspices of your motherland Serbia.

Anonymous Peggy Wed, Sep 30 2009 12:04 CET

Agron, game wasn't over when the Turks ruled for 500 years. This is only temporary.

Kosovo was, is and always will remain Serbian.

AnonymousAgron ForlaniWed, Sep 30 2009 11:33 CET

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Anonymous Hawk Wed, Sep 30 2009 10:31 CET

Kosovo & Metohia (which is in fact just a title of the geographical region) has always been part of Serbia - Firstly, the part of the the Kingdom of Serbia, and then part of the Republic of Serbia. Today's administrative line between Kosovo and Serbia was established by Tito and his Sloveniand & Croatiian communist, just to weaken Serbia. So, Kosovo always was a part of Serbia and will always be a part of Serbia.

Therefore, any state in the World has every right to defend its territorial integrity and sovereignty, and there is no one [...]

Read the full comment who could forbid it to do that. And Serbia is just doing that. I am quite confident that Serbia will succeed in that, thus will give an sheer example to every state in the World who faces the same problem of secession, that it is worth to fight for its integrity.
And K-Albanians will be much better to go along with Serbia. That way they will ensure bright and prosperous future.

AnonymousAlban.Kcomment@gmail.comWed, Sep 30 2009 04:29 CET

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Anonymous Alban.Kcomment@gmail.com Wed, Sep 30 2009 03:59 CET

Serbian politics is trying to represent the conflict between Rep. of Kosova and Rep. of Serbia as a tribal conflict. The aim is to justify their strong opposition to the Kosova recognition under the ground that this recognition would be a precedent for other disputed regions. Kosova never is been part of Serbia. Under Yugoslav federation it had the status of autonomous and constitutive region, this is the reason why it can't be a such precedent. If you see the story of Serbian Republic (parliament for example), you never will find any Kosovar representative neither before or today. I don't [...]

Read the full comment know how Serbian authorities can justify this fact that in the clearest way interpret the falsity of their claims. An interpretation why Kosova should be recognized as an independent country can be found at: http://www.bosnia.org.uk/news/news_body.cfm?newsid=2487

The idea to put Kosova and Serbia together is the craziest thing can be imagined. Any scenarios who consider Kosova under Serbian occupation mean a big trouble not only for Kosova and Serbia but for the whole region. Last one who didn't just thought but triet to realize that was Slobodan Miloscevic. Everybody knows very well what consequences and outcome it had.

Until now Kosova has the recognition from 62 countries and expecting very soon the recognition from 15 countries who already have declared their decision. Serbia has realized only to slow down further recognitions but not to stop them. On the other side, countries who have recognized the independence of Rep. of Kosova represent 60% of UNSC, 81.5% of EU members, 85.7% of NATO members, 70.2% of Council of Europe etc... . So numbers have the importance given by the quality who rests behind those. I don't think that for the moment it is important the speed of new recognitions as long as they still going on. As well I don't believe that anything of important relevance can arise from any bilateral (Serb-Kosovar) irrational discussion. The most important thing for the Rep. of Kosova is to realize standards for it's citizens and the country it want to be. Further recognitions should be not only as a political and legal influence but as well as a standards consequence.

Regarding to Serbian big painful efforts to stop the recognition, no one can tell them what to do or not. To me it's sound a big political waste because even if it thinks to get anything as compensation for Kosova recognition, let say kosovar territory in north of Iber or reconfigured borders, I don't think it can get anything from Kosovar part. If there is any option for border change (this is my personal opinion), the only option is joining Albania. Albanians are one people with two states and two governments. The truth is that two governments for 6 million people are a big weight to hold. I don't see any reason why one people should keep two states two governments and considering that both of them for a long time have payed the costs, one of a long time of communist self-isolation and the other one of a long time of occupation.

According to many sources, (anyone can find them easily), in Rep. of Kosova, the ethnic composition is as follows: 92% Albanians, 8% minorities (among them 5% Serbs). With this composition, any normal person can not find any justifiable reason why Kosova should be considered with the status of a multinational state and furthermore, missing the legal and national grounds, why to be forced to be with Serbia. If Serbs are really claiming Kosova, this can be an other argument to sustain that Mrs. Sabrina p. Ramet is definitely right with her study. ( link: [deleted link] )

Anonymous alban.Kcomment@gmail.com Wed, Sep 30 2009 03:55 CET

To TSE moderator.

Thank you

Преглед на профил TSE Moderator Tue, Sep 29 2009 14:17 CET

We removed about 80 per cent of the comments on this article. Apparently it is very hard to say anything on the topic without insulting, name-calling and what-not.
Several posters will also find themselves banned from posting any further comments.
Is this really the level at which this discussion needs to be held?

AnonymousEpaminondasTue, Sep 29 2009 13:34 CET

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AnonymousPeggyTue, Sep 29 2009 12:25 CET

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AnonymousEpaminondasTue, Sep 29 2009 11:14 CET

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Anonymous Pashriku Tue, Sep 29 2009 03:34 CET

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AnonymousbenzoTue, Sep 29 2009 02:54 CET

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Anonymous Agron Forlani Tue, Sep 29 2009 01:22 CET

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Anonymous Agron Forlani Tue, Sep 29 2009 01:20 CET

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AnonymousPeggyMon, Sep 28 2009 23:17 CET

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AnonymousPeggyMon, Sep 28 2009 23:16 CET

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AnonymousFranky FingersMon, Sep 28 2009 22:41 CET

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AnonymousThaqiMon, Sep 28 2009 22:15 CET

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AnonymousThaqiMon, Sep 28 2009 22:09 CET

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AnonymousThaqi1Mon, Sep 28 2009 22:04 CET

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AnonymousThaqi1Mon, Sep 28 2009 21:57 CET

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AnonymousThaqi1Mon, Sep 28 2009 21:53 CET

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AnonymousHawkMon, Sep 28 2009 21:50 CET

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AnonymousHawkMon, Sep 28 2009 21:43 CET

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Anonymous MSV Mon, Sep 28 2009 20:52 CET

I was contemplating not to comment… Anyway, the entire region is status quo, because of people like you. Lack of respect for nationality and religion, lack of respect for divergence in views…

AnonymousAlban.Kcomment@gmail.comMon, Sep 28 2009 18:39 CET

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Anonymous Agron Forlani Mon, Sep 28 2009 17:11 CET

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Anonymous Alban.Kcomment@gmail.com Mon, Sep 28 2009 15:22 CET

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AnonymousPeggyMon, Sep 28 2009 15:19 CET

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Anonymous Agron Forlani Mon, Sep 28 2009 12:23 CET

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Anonymousalban.kcomment@gmail.comMon, Sep 28 2009 02:36 CET

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Anonymous alban.Kcomment@gmail.com Mon, Sep 28 2009 02:00 CET

What is the Serbian lie about "the stolen Kosova". Read it by yourselves.

He casts doubt on my account of one key episode of Serbian history, the so-called "Great Migration" of the Serbs from Kosovo in 1690, on the grounds that... .



http://www.nybooks.com/articles/777

Anonymousalban.Kcomment@gmail.comMon, Sep 28 2009 01:56 CET

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AnonymouszomgMon, Sep 28 2009 01:24 CET

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Anonymous Patrick Mon, Sep 28 2009 00:32 CET

US is noble nation which is being run by Corporations and Saudis. So you see the results are self evident based on who pressing the buttons. In case of Kosovo the Saudi and Corporate interests aligned. The Saudi Wahhabi wanted a beachhead to press into Europe, and the Corporation got access to oil and mineral rich Kosovo. George Soros grabbed a mine for $50M and now that is worth $5B. So you can see how "democracy", "Wahabism", and "Corporatism" aligned to dismember Serbia- a nation which saved 5000 US airmen during WWII.

AnonymousPeggySun, Sep 27 2009 23:33 CET

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AnonymousPashtrikuSun, Sep 27 2009 21:08 CET

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AnonymousJon MillsSun, Sep 27 2009 19:29 CET

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Anonymous Lele Majko Sun, Sep 27 2009 10:01 CET

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AnonymousTim Sun, Sep 27 2009 08:45 CET

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Anonymous Tim Sun, Sep 27 2009 08:43 CET

The Serbian politicians are using every tick to convince the world they are the innocent party. How quickly they forgot all the massacres caused by Serbian armies and mercenaries in Bosnia Croatia and Kosovo.
Do you Serbs think that Europe and USA forgot all about it?
All the innocent people massacred just because they where Muslims ?
Your Serbia today is still protecting many wanted criminals. Hell most of those two faced criminals are the Serbian politicians of today, and probably some of you losers who post on these web sites, to blame all [...]

Read the full comment the problems on everyone else.
The World has stopped listening to Serbian Lies.
Tadic and Serbia need to apologize to all the nations around them for the misery they caused over the past decade, and YES, they must recognize the new Republic of Kosovo.

AnonymousbenzoSun, Sep 27 2009 07:38 CET

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Anonymous Tim Jackson Sun, Sep 27 2009 04:12 CET

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Anonymousalban.Kcomment@gmail.comSun, Sep 27 2009 03:13 CET

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AnonymousKiMSat, Sep 26 2009 23:24 CET

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Anonymous mitrovica Sat, Sep 26 2009 18:27 CET

Serbia never get back kosovo for billions years

Anonymous kavacik Sat, Sep 26 2009 18:21 CET

There are lessons to be learn from the Kosovo situation for politicians in the Balkan countries. Historical events should be left alone and should never be used for political gains.We should never forget that Human beings are very unique creatures, sometimes they can be very kind and humane and other times like a vicious animals. It is all depends which side of their brain is tempered.

Anonymous Lawful Sat, Sep 26 2009 18:02 CET

Very nice message for these crazy times. The choice comes down to two points:

1) Dismiss laws.
2) Honour laws.

Sadly, as we have seen, the last decade has been characterized by everyone (from world leaders down on to us plebes) always choosing the easy way.

It appears that adults have been missing from the conversation. Hard way might hurt, obeying the laws might not be fun -- but in the end (to quote Terry Pratchett), the hard way is still easier than the easy way. [...]

Read the full comment

Laws must be obeyed. Time to grow up. Time for adults to take over and restore the normal way of things.

Anonymous kaqaniku Sat, Sep 26 2009 17:06 CET

Stop wasting your time. give up KOSOVO move on in the end you are going to lose not Kosovo


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