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Sat, Feb 11 2012
Israel, while rejecting Kosovo independence, hopes for compromise
Israel's foreign minister Avigdor Lieberman.
Israel is monitoring the situation between Serbia and Kosovo and hopes that through direct bilateral talks, the two sides can achieve a comprehensive and peaceful solution, Israeli foreign minister Avigdor Lieberman said in Belgrade on September 16 2009.
At a meeting, Serbian foreign minister Vuk Jeremic thanked Lieberman for Israeli refusing to recognise Kosovo as independent.
Kosovo unilaterally declared independence from Serbia in February 2008, a move rejected as illegitimate by Belgrade and a number of its allies, notably Russia. The United States and most European Union countries have recognised Kosovo as independent.
Jeremic told Lieberman: "We are very thankful to Israel for its position on Kosovo. Israel does not recognize the unilateral declaration of independence of Kosovo in spite of all the pressures Israel faces," said Jeremic.
At their meeting, Jeremic and Lieberman signed an agreement to abolish visas between the two countries, hailing this as an important step in the development of bilateral relations, Serbian news agencies reported.
"This removes the obstacle to Serbian businesspeople and tourists that want to come to Israel," Lieberman said.
Lieberman told a news conference after the meeting that his talks with Jeremic had been "open and friendly".
Asked if Israel was "under pressure" to recognise Kosovo, Lieberman said: "We have been under pressure since 1948 on many issues and we know how to deal with any pressure."
On the Serbia – Kosovo issue, he said: "I personally believe that it is impossible to impose peace. You need to create peace. We have our experience in our own region, and I think that the best way to resolve the problems and to bring about a comprehensive solution is direct talks between both sides.
"We are monitoring the situation between Serbia and Kosovo, and we really hope that in the future, in the next few years, you will achieve a really comprehensive and peaceful solution."
Lieberman said that he had briefed Jeremic on developments in the Middle East, "mainly the challenges that Israel is facing in order to ensure security and normal life to its citizens.
"Regarding the Palestinian issue, I emphasised the steps that Israel has taken in order to improve the lives of the population and our readiness to engage in direct negotiations without delay."
They had also discussed at length the threat that Iran poses to the stability and security in the Middle East as well as in the whole world, Lieberman said.
"Iran’s pursuit of nuclear weapons is a global threat and should be dealt with by the international community in a serious manner. Our view is that doing ‘business as usual’ with Iran is sending a wrong message to the leaders in Teheran, who bluntly ignore the international will and norms," according to Lieberman.
Replying to a question, he said: "I think it is clear to everybody that the biggest problem of the Middle East is the radical wing. It is the clash between moderate and extremist people.
"It is not disputes or disagreements between us and the Palestinian Authority. We have said from the first day of this government that we are ready immediately for direct talks with the Palestinians side. The Palestinians have refused to date to sit around the table and to start with the talks."
However, Israel continued to strengthen the Palestinian Authority, he said. Israel had diminished the number of road blocks and "we continue to invest" in the Palestinian Authority.
"The real threat for the Palestinian Authority is not from Israel. The real threat is Hamas and Jihad. And the real threat for the Hariri coalition in Lebanon is not Israel, but Hizbollah. And the biggest threat for Egypt is not Israel, but the Muslim Brotherhood. And the biggest threat for the Nato troops in Afghanistan is the Taliban. And the biggest threat for instability in Pakistan is also the Taliban," Lieberman said.
"And I think that this fact of the radical Islamic wing in the Middle East is a really clear vision for the United States, for us, for all people around the world, for moderate people," he said.
At a meeting, Serbian foreign minister Vuk Jeremic thanked Lieberman for Israeli refusing to recognise Kosovo as independent.
Kosovo unilaterally declared independence from Serbia in February 2008, a move rejected as illegitimate by Belgrade and a number of its allies, notably Russia. The United States and most European Union countries have recognised Kosovo as independent.
Jeremic told Lieberman: "We are very thankful to Israel for its position on Kosovo. Israel does not recognize the unilateral declaration of independence of Kosovo in spite of all the pressures Israel faces," said Jeremic.
At their meeting, Jeremic and Lieberman signed an agreement to abolish visas between the two countries, hailing this as an important step in the development of bilateral relations, Serbian news agencies reported.
"This removes the obstacle to Serbian businesspeople and tourists that want to come to Israel," Lieberman said.
Lieberman told a news conference after the meeting that his talks with Jeremic had been "open and friendly".
Asked if Israel was "under pressure" to recognise Kosovo, Lieberman said: "We have been under pressure since 1948 on many issues and we know how to deal with any pressure."
On the Serbia – Kosovo issue, he said: "I personally believe that it is impossible to impose peace. You need to create peace. We have our experience in our own region, and I think that the best way to resolve the problems and to bring about a comprehensive solution is direct talks between both sides.
"We are monitoring the situation between Serbia and Kosovo, and we really hope that in the future, in the next few years, you will achieve a really comprehensive and peaceful solution."
Lieberman said that he had briefed Jeremic on developments in the Middle East, "mainly the challenges that Israel is facing in order to ensure security and normal life to its citizens.
"Regarding the Palestinian issue, I emphasised the steps that Israel has taken in order to improve the lives of the population and our readiness to engage in direct negotiations without delay."
They had also discussed at length the threat that Iran poses to the stability and security in the Middle East as well as in the whole world, Lieberman said.
"Iran’s pursuit of nuclear weapons is a global threat and should be dealt with by the international community in a serious manner. Our view is that doing ‘business as usual’ with Iran is sending a wrong message to the leaders in Teheran, who bluntly ignore the international will and norms," according to Lieberman.
Replying to a question, he said: "I think it is clear to everybody that the biggest problem of the Middle East is the radical wing. It is the clash between moderate and extremist people.
"It is not disputes or disagreements between us and the Palestinian Authority. We have said from the first day of this government that we are ready immediately for direct talks with the Palestinians side. The Palestinians have refused to date to sit around the table and to start with the talks."
However, Israel continued to strengthen the Palestinian Authority, he said. Israel had diminished the number of road blocks and "we continue to invest" in the Palestinian Authority.
"The real threat for the Palestinian Authority is not from Israel. The real threat is Hamas and Jihad. And the real threat for the Hariri coalition in Lebanon is not Israel, but Hizbollah. And the biggest threat for Egypt is not Israel, but the Muslim Brotherhood. And the biggest threat for the Nato troops in Afghanistan is the Taliban. And the biggest threat for instability in Pakistan is also the Taliban," Lieberman said.
"And I think that this fact of the radical Islamic wing in the Middle East is a really clear vision for the United States, for us, for all people around the world, for moderate people," he said.
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The Sofia Echo
grat news that all the Serb camp here can finaly shut up, the angel serbs once again have been found with overwelming evidence that they commited genocide while building mass graves.
Killerscum that were involved in the Scorpions are still at larg in a land locked cave called servia.
All your lies will not be forgotten brainwhashed children of genocidal butchers. you are throwing serbia of a klif yourself.
showing your rediculous atitude in here by trying to wash it over with ww2 bullhit made by and for serb braiwashed retards.
Genocidal [...]
Read the full comment parasites should not be made famous or aide them to flee responcibility. but in the great country of serviles, those are the norms.
This comment has been removed by the moderator because it contained foul, abusive or discriminating language
This comment has been removed by the moderator because it contained off-topic content
This comment has been removed by the moderator because it contained off-topic content
George - your coverage is incomplete. You have omitted grave-robbing, necromancy, the blood-feud ancestral vendetta "Kanun of Lek" (seriously !) and other supposed Kosovan Albanian habits identified by Serbian authorities.
Teshekur ederim
It is an undisputed international law and fact that kosovo is an integrated territory of Serbia as guarranteed by the UN's resolution 1244. Kosovo's government is deeply tied to organized crime structures: narcotrafficking, arms smuggling, car theft rings and human trafficking that feeds the sex slave "industry." These operations are intimately linked to American destabilization campaigns and their cosy ties to on-again, off-again intelligence assets that include al-Qaeda and other far-right terror gangs.
to georg.........
dream on you and your serbia.
game over for serbia ...
No more serbia in kosova never.
For your info- georg we dont hide war criminals you serbians do serbia is 99% nationalismus.
who startit the war first in slovenia than croatia bosnia kosova .Who is crying after yougoslavia just serbs nobody ellse.
Peggy am not going to write my msg- for you ,,you know what i want to write you.P... k...
This comment has been removed by the moderator because it contained не е по темата на статията
This comment has been removed by the moderator because it contained не е по темата на статията
This comment has been removed by the moderator because it contained не е по темата на статията
This comment has been removed by the moderator because it contained реклама & спам
Well, Peggy, I certainly realised this when my Queensland Oz girl-friend introduced me to the Australian High Commissioner in London as her "little Pommie bastard" at a diplomatic reception in Australia House (it proved subsequently difficult to translate this into French, so I take your point.)
You have never, by the way, answered my earlier question about whether you have ever actually visited Serbia. Have you, and if so when and where ?
Epaminondas, didn't I just say the same thing? Yes, if you are friends you can use that term when it's clear that you are joking but not say it to a stranger.
I don't see why you needed to provide some Austalian saying including that one at all. I know how things are said here. I use the language every day.
I hope you don't intned to call someone a bastard you don't know well that's all.
Peggy - extract from Strine dictionary from URL below:
<<Banana bender : a person from Queensland
Barbie : barbecue (noun)
Barrack : to cheer on (football team etc.)
Bastard : term of endearment
Bathers : swimming costume
Battler : someone working hard and only just making a living
Beaut, beauty : great, fantastic
Big Smoke : a big city, especially Sydney or Melbourne>>>
I once had an Oz girl-friend (a "banana-bender") who worked at the Queensland High Commission [...]
Read the full comment in London and who lived (surprise surprise) in Earls Court. She would always refer to me in public as her "Pommie bastard" with great affection. Since 90% of our neighbours were Aussie or Kiwis this caused no misunderstanding whatsoever. Americans used to misunderstand it, though.
Epaminondas,
The term bastard is a derogatery term here as well. If you think that people like to be called bastards here come and say it to them.
I think you will leave without a few teeth.
Where on earth did you hear that Australians like to be called bastards?
Sure when friends joke with each other or when one wins the lottery you will hear "you lucky bastard" but this is only acceptable between friends. NOT a stranger telling the other guy he is a bastard.
[...]
Read the full comment />
Also the term Wog. Not acceptable for an Australian to call a Greek, Italian or former Yugoslava a wog, but they are allowed to use that term when they describe themselves.
Big difference on who uses those terms and how.
Sorry, Moderators, no intention to be rude or impolite.
I did use some Australian English as Peggy is Australian, and here is the on-line dictionary to it:
http://www.koalanet.com.au/australian-slang.html
(A few words might cause confusion: in Australian the word "bastard" is actually a term of endearment and very friendly !)
Getting a sense of deja vu, but I will repeat myself here as well: keep it civil or your post will be deleted.
This comment has been hidden by the moderator because it contained квалификации.
This comment has been hidden by the moderator because it contained квалификации.
Peggy - as you say, contemporary news photos are "gold dust" as regards proof. Here is a contemporary photo showing Serbian Chetniks consorting very amicably indeed with German soldiers during WW II:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Chetniks_with_Ge
What need I say more ? They (the Ustashi and the Chetniks, or more correctly Chetnitsi) were equally up to their necks in collaborating with the Germans during WW II, except the Chetniks got a better lawyer and PR agent at the end of the war !
As you say, however, [...]
Read the full comment the Serbs are not at the end of the ANZAC march. That honour falls to the Turks, IIRC, it was the Turks against whom the Anzacs fought at Gallipoli in 1915, i.e. an enemy. So which side of the line do the Serbs fall ?
Their placement in the procession between allies and enemy might suggest quite a bit of ambiguity here.... I suspect the ANZAC organisers did this with some skill...
This comment has been hidden by the moderator because it contained авторски права.
Epamin, since you address me so well (not) you are not worth answering.
Are you really that stupid or pretending to be? I have posted a link from the newspaper of Sarajevo from the past where it clearly shows Bosnian Muslims in support of Nazis. There are plenty of photos there for you to see.
What else do you want? Do you want me to put you in a time machine and send you back to that time. No can do. All I can do is supply you with evidence in the form of [...]
Read the full comment the actual newspaper and photos from that period. If that is not good enough for you then for a man who claims to be so educated are not very bright indeed.
Peggy - why haven't you answered my point below addressed to you ? You seem to expect me to react very quickly and accurately to the points that you post, so you might at least show me that you can do the same yourself when required.
Or have you still got your Muftis in a Mufddle up your clacker ?
Have a bonzer day meanwhile, me old sheila.
to -Shlomo the Infidel -
Shlomo the uninformed (is better)
you say;
"you dont need to tell Jews who saved us and who didnt, we know very well, thankyou"
I have same message for you Shlomo
"you dont need to tell" Serb weather we did have "provocative way" with Albanians or not!
We know MUCH better what really happened ,thank you !
So keep US propaganda (transmitted in Israel) for yourself please!
This grotesque parade where some Jews pretend to defend Muslim [...]
Read the full comment Albanians and Serbs have to pay for that masquerade is pathetic!
WHY you never read articles from sites like Jihad Watch or from JEWISH authors like Julia GORIN to EDUCATE yourself what really happened in Kosovo ?!
HERE: -
Julia Gorin article on Kosovo from the American Legion magazine:
The 'Successful War' we lost in Kosovo
America has itself to blame for giving terrorism a toehold in Europe
Bosnia and Kosovo have been part of Islam’s current divide-and-conquer approach. Israeli Col. Shaul Shay, author of Islamic Terror and the Balkans, explains the significance of Kosovo, Albania and Bosnia: “In the eyes of the radical Islamic circles, the establishment of an independent Islamic territory including Bosnia, Kosovo and Albania along the Adriatic Coast, is one of the most prominent achievements of Islam since the siege of Vienna in 1683.
Peggy - sorry, I should have added the hope that you won't get your Muftis in a Mufddle again ! (It was the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem you meant, not the Mufti of Bosnia as you said.)
There are quite a lot of other Muftis in the Moslem world, too: we even have one in Birmingham UK. But they vary in their attitudes: Mufti Ceric of Sarajevo is a strong advocate of religious freedom, whereas the Mufti of Mecca certainly is not:
http://sheikyermami.com/2009/08/05/uk-mecca-mufti-
[...]
Read the full comment So, once again, one cannot generalise as you seemingly like to do. One man's mufti is another man's poison.
Aries, who sometimes posts here, is quite an expert on these things too (especially on Albania), and I would listen carefully to what he says before rushing into print.
In the meantime, enjoy your barbie, and crack open a can of the chilled amber nectar for me, me old Sheila.
Peggy - this is a direct quote froman authoritative Australian source (the High Commission):
<< ANZAC day in Australia, April 25th, the anniversary of the ANZAC landing at Gallipoli in 1915, is the national day of remembrance for Australian Soldiers, Sailors, and Airmen, killed in wars overseas. Recently members of "Enemy Armed Forces" also march with Australians in celebrations across the country and is seen as a measure of reconciliation >>
Note the last sentence. Probably the Serbs are regarded as "Enemy Armed Forces", which is specifically why they march, as a [...]
Read the full comment "measure of reconciliation". In which case this would answer a lot of questions raised on this site.
Meanwhile, if you have lived your whole life in Oz (sorry, Australia), presumably you have never stayed in Serbia for any length of time, or even visited it at all ?
As for the "Emperor's Clothes" newsletter, if you regard that as serious information you are even more credulous than I thought. It gets nowhere near the real duck's guts, although its illustrations of Waffen SS shoulder-badges are interesting. If you can read Serbo-Croat, you will see that (with one exception) they are nothing to do with Bosnia, but Galicia (Ukraine), Latvia (two of them), Flanders and Swann.
Nobody is denying that Jasenovac was a war crime and genocide rolled into one, but it wasn't the "first, the worst, or the last", as the legal phrase has it.
G'day for now from your favourite tall poppy, and get a schooner of the old amber fluid (preferably Fosters) to go with the prawns on your barbie. It might put you in a better mood !
Who cares about Serbs and the Anzak connection?
Australia, has helped Kosovo refugees running from Serbs.
Croaatians and Bosnians immigrated to Australia becouse of Serb genocides.
Australia proudly recognises Kosovo in her full rights.
So why is it even a debate on it?
Oh thats right, Serbs trying to push genocide aside to try to win sympathy with some underated BEEEEEP.
This comment has been hidden by the moderator because it contained авторски права.
Aries - many thanks indeed for the URL. This is certainly the map of Polish concentration camp sites that comes up on first internet searching. I tried Googling "Polish Maps" as you suggested, and got loads of maps, but not the one I wanted (I wonder if it has been withdrawn by the new Polish government ?)
Visually, the map concerned is striking. It has the usual silhouette of today's Polish borders, and is coloured in white and light-blue stripes/bands, with black crosses all over the country (large ones where your map shows major extermination sites, [...]
Read the full comment small ones elsewhere.) No other information is given except the location of major towns, and there is a key to the size of the crosses at the foot of the map.
The one reason it might have been withdrawn is that it gives the total number of dead at Auschwitz/Oswiecim as 4 million, whereas now the accepted figure is 1.5 million. But this was the "accepted wisdom" at the time the map was printed, and nobody has ever alleged that the then Polish Government was acting in bad faith in using this figure.
Thanks once again, most sincerely, for your help, anyway.
Chew on This - many thanks. An instructive video. I saw myself scenes nearly as bad in Belgrade - and the photo at the end clinches it as Belgrade, as I have sat down in a cafe in that very same square !
But don't be gratuitously rude to Peggy/ "Pegboy" as you call her. The Moderators wouldn't like it, and it's not necessary in order to make your point. Better to demolish her case with remorseless logic and contrary information, as I am attempting to do.
This comment has been hidden by the moderator because it contained квалификации.
This comment has been hidden by the moderator because it contained квалификации.
Peggy - here is the link (from the "Australian Times" newspaper) about ANZAC day in London:
http://www.australiantimes.co.uk/news.aspx?ID=531
It doesn't mention Serbs at all, though I can recall from a conversation with both the Slovenian ambassador and the Queensland representative in London, to the effect that representatives of other nations who had fought with the Aussies in WW II were welcome. Somehow this includes Slovenia, though I am not quite sure how, as the Aussies were not involved in the Alpine fighting at the end of WW II (my late [...]
Read the full comment father was, but he was in the British Army.)
How on earth the Serbs managed to insert their presence into ANZAC day in Oz I can't understand ! On a separate note, flying the Chetnik flag sounds odd too. This wouldn't be allowed in London (the only non-British Empire flag allowed is the Polish one, for obvious reasons given the Polish contribution to the RAF, Monte Cassino, liberation of Netherlands, and other British military campaigns during WW II.) I am referring here to our own Armistics Day commemoration on November 11 eash year, not to ANZAC day, which (as I say) is Oz and New Zealand only in this country.
Peggy - I think you've got your Muftis in a muddle (or a Muftle !)
The Mufti in the newsletter you posted is the Grand Mufti of JERUSALEM, not the Mufti of Bosnia (the two places are not the same). He was by all accounts a nasty piece of work, did indeed meet Hitler once, and proved a pain in the proverbials to the British and to the Jews alike in Palestine in 1948. Yasser Arafat as apparently his nephew. Need I say more ?
As for the "emperor's clothes" newsletter, can [...]
Read the full comment I ask (with tongue in cheek maybe) by which academic community this was peer-group reviewed ? I do not agree with FictionProof's language, but I do agree with his conclusion that this is as audacious a bit of propaganda as any seen before the Berlin Wall fell.
I shall answer your point about ANZAC day separately.
This comment has been hidden by the moderator because it contained квалификации.
Epaminondas, here is what you say,
Sorry - I don't want to be unduly critical, but let's try to weed out facts from propaganda (however well-intentioned.)
We were discussing the Bosnian Mufti and I posted this link.
This link does show the source. It is the newspaper of the region and it clearly shows photos of what I am talking about.
Here, have another look.
http://www.emperors-clothes.com/bosnia/svijet.htm
This comment has been hidden by the moderator because it contained авторски права.
Epaminondas
You can have a look at this rather
simple map
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:WW2-Holocaust-Po
or google poland maps
I have been trying for some time to locate on the Internet a map published in Poland in the mid-1960s. Its title (in Polish) is:
Mapa hitlerowskich obozów zagłady na ziemiach polskich 1939-1944, which translates as "Map of the Hitlerian extermination camps on Polish territory 1939-1944">
Visually, it looks like a map of Poland covered in white and blue stripes (like the concentration camp uniforms), with each of the camps marked with a black German cross: the larger the cross, the more were killed at that site. The whole country is covered [...]
Read the full comment with black crosses, great and small.
Of all the documents produced in Peoples' Poland, the accuracy of this one has never been questioned. I used to have my own paper copy which I put on the office wall in Belgium, but the Belgians objected so I took it down.
The closest I have got so far to locating it on the Internet is:
http://www.sciaga.pl/tekst/9702-10-mapa_hitlerowsk
but (even though I know Polish) the site is difficult to follow as it is full of pop-up ads (sometimes one yearns for a return to the Communist ad-free days !)
If anybody can actually find the map, based on the information I have given, very grateful indeed if you could post the link.
Peggy - I should pass on this link:
http://www.serbianna.com/columns/savich/006.shtml
which - from a Serbian source - gives much more than we have seen before in terms of specifics about just what went on during WW II. It exonerates the Mufti of Bosnia, only to drop the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem right in it (I think he is the one who may have met Hitler.)
I don't necessarily accept the accuracy of all this, but academic honesty dictates that I share this (probably new) specific information. [...]
Read the full comment It largely supports what we have discussed before, but gives more details.
As regards ANZAC day, we have that in the UK too, and I don't recall the Jugoslav contingent being limited to Serbs. It certainly included Slovenes, as the Slovenian ambassador was present this year ! I would be surprised if it excluded Croats altogether, as the Croatian embassy in London is very active and very concerned to point out Croatia's role amongst the wartime partisans. (My late father always said they were all Slovenes, but then he was based in the Julian Alps, so that will have been all he saw.)
Hope this is helpful, anyway. (Have you found the posting about free gifts of Durex to the Albanians yet ?)
Fiction proof, I have no idea what you are trying to say and I think you have no idea what you are talking about either.
Do you even know what Anzac day march represents?
What do you mean by Anzac was only one landing?
Are you talking about Gallipoli?
Gallipoli is one battle but Anzacs are represented in all wars including Korean and Vietnam war. All the veterans from all those wars march on that day all over Australia and Serbs and only Serbs are allowed to march with the [...]
Read the full comment rest of them. Serbs are considered allies and that is why they are allowed. Not Yugoslavs but only Serbs. What is it about this you don't understand?
You write this,
"Yougoslavia, neither Albania and Greece did not even play a supporting role to the allies in comparason to the big picture of hovoc called ww!!
Mongolia provided more troops. "
When Serbs march they carry a sign that says "Serbs" and they march under the Chetnik flag not the Yugoslav flag. Yugoslavia is NOT represented at all but only Serbs are.
I don't know how to make it any more simple for you.
Peggy - I have looked at your links. I think you may need to be a bit more critical/selective about your sources: the link you cite at
http://old.manifesto2009.pes.org/en/debate/post/79
omits several well-known concentration camps such as Mauthausen (as per the Theodorakis song cycle "Ballad of Mauthausen") and also several major concentration / extermination camps in Poland. Also it doesn't give any reference to its source or origin, which it should.
Sorry - I don't want to be unduly critical, but let's try to weed out [...]
Read the full comment facts from propaganda (however well-intentioned.)
"what do you have to say about Serbs being the only ones allowed to march on Anzac day with all other allies?"
Anzac day, is only one of the landings of WW2.
Serbs are not mentioned of becouse it was was leading a union called Yugoslavia. Millitary personel were equal for personel of their republic size.
"Do you still say that Serbs were not allies. Australian government seems to have a different view."
The military representig was made up from ethnicities of all republics. [...]
Read the full comment
As for the delima with who won councoured and all
http://www.world-war-2.info/countries/
Countries below had declared their neutrality before being assaulted:
Albania (occupied by Italy April 7th 1939, by Germany September 26th 1943)
Greece (invaded by Italy October 28th 1940, German occupation from April 6th 1941)
Yugoslavia (German occupation from April 6th 1941)
Yougoslavia, neither Albania and Greece did not even play a supporting role to the allies in comparason to the big picture of hovoc called ww!!
Mongolia provided more troops.
Epiminondas, what do you have to say about Serbs being the only ones allowed to march on Anzac day with all other allies?
Do you still say that Serbs were not allies. Australian government seems to have a different view.
Also please take a look at the links I posted.
Epaminondas, here is another link which shows which were the worst consetration camps in WW2 and how many killed and who was killed.
Under Balkan it mentions Jasenovac but it does not mention any Muslims being killed there. It does however say 600,000 and not 700,000 as I posted previously. Figures vary but whichever one you take it is a significan figure and here too you will see that the Muslims were Nazis as well as the Croatians.
http://old.manifesto2009.pes.org/en/debate/post/79
I hope you will take [...]
Read the full comment time to read this. It clearly states that Bosnian Muslims and Albanians were Nazis as well. I know you don't want this to be true, but what can I say. It was how it was and history cannot be changed no matter how much you disagree with it.
Epaminondas, here is a link I thinkyou will find intresting. It shows Bosnian Muslims being allied to Nazis.
http://www.emperors-clothes.com/bosnia/svijet.htm
Since I can send only one link per post I will send the next one separately.
Peggy - the simple reason that I mentioned Kraguevac rather than Jasenovac is that I have personally been there, like I have personally been to Auschwitz/Oswiecim, whereas I have not personally been to Jasenovac.
Nobody is pretending that the Ustase were not war criminals and that Jasenovac was not a war crime(at least, I hope not !) Estimates of those killed there seem to vary - 700,000 is the highest figure - and those killed included Partisans and Slovenes as well as Serbs. Also a great number of Roma, and some Bosnian Muslims
(the [...]
Read the full comment Wikipedia site on all this seems to be both objective and informative.)
If Bosnian Muslims were killed at Jasenovac, it rather throws into doubt your statement about the Mufti of Bosnia ( who may be something of an apocryphal figure, along with the Sandjak of Novi Pazar ) being a friend of Hitler. There is little evidence of Hitler having any Moslem friends at all.
The 700,000 estimate figure should be assessed in the context of post-1989 revisionism: the figure for those killed at Auschwitz/Oswiecim was long stated as 4 million by the Polish Government (in perfectly good faith, and they erected an enormous stone monument with the words "Bylo Ich Cztery Miliony" in letters 20 metres high
(translation: "There were four million of them".) Unfortunately, after 1989 and the fall of communism, this figure had to be revised downwards to one-and-a-half million. I don't know what's happened to the monument now; it would be rather hard to dismantle, and the Poles do not as a rule demolish monuments. But if 4 million at Auschwitz has to reduce to 1.5 million in the light of new knowledge, I submit that your figure of 700,000 for Jasenovac may have to be reduced similarly. It doesn't stop it being a war crime, though.......
Hope this is helpful.
Epaminondas, why haven't you said one word about Jasenovac.
You are ready to talk about Kragujevac because that was done by the Germans but I was not talking about the Germans. I was specifically talking about Jasenovac which was a Croatian war crime.
Now if you think that Jasenovac is not worthy of a mention then you must be trying to hide Croatian Nazi crimes during the war as around 700,000 victims all slaughtered is more than just a little mistake made by the Croats.
What about the Mufti of Bosnia and [...]
Read the full comment his relationship with Hitler? Are you not going to worry about that but also excuse it as an insignificant moment in history?
Don't forget that there were many Bosnian Muslims joining the Croats for a common goal of exterminating Serbs, Jews and Roma.
Epaminondas, you say that Croats fought the Italians which makes them allies of some sort. What a load of bull. Any Croat who fought against any Nazi was a Partisan and we all know that most were NOT Partisans. Can you plese provide some evidence of your claims and especially evidence of the "ransom" paid by America for their returned airmen.
The fact is that general Draza Mihailovic was awarded a medal by the US president for this deed. Now if the Serbs were kidnappers (that is who the ransom is paid to) I seriously doubt [...]
Read the full comment that he would receive a medal by the president.
So please provide evidence of this especially.
I knew you would see the second link as one sided and I included it on purpose because you would jump on that one but the first one certainly was not as it comes from Encyclpedia Britannica. There is more than enough proof of Croats and Bosnian Muslims being Nazis.
ONE VERY IMPORTANT FACT.
Every year here in Australia the Serbs march on Anzac day with all the ALLIES from the wars. Yes, allies and they are called that. Now if your dispute the Australian government I suggest you take your same argument to them and see where you get.
I have heard the then president of the Victorian RSL say on TV that Croatians will NEVER BE ALLOWED TO MARCH because they were, get this as these are his own words "on the side of bloody Hitler".
Now this is coming from someone again the the know and he was ready to speak publically about it. So I think I will take his word for it before yours anytime.
I suggest you take up this argument with the Australian government about who they think the allies were and who the enemy was.
I made a youtube video on Kosovo/Balkans.
Enjoy ... Kosovo is Albanian imperialism, no question about it. At all.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ln9A4BgvHqg
Peggy - your attachments (which I have looked at) are a bit one-sided in Serbia's favour, but they are right on one thing: the Kragujevac massacre of Serbs (by German Wehrmacht troops, not the Waffen SS) in 1941.
I was in Kraguevac in 1963, and once the locals found out I was British they told me the whole story and showed me the remains. It was quite clear that a war crome had taken place, and equally clear that it had been committed by the Germans, not the Croats nor the Albanians, nor (in theory) by [...]
Read the full comment the Bulgarians, as it is quite close to the Bulgarian frontier.
On the same trip I also saw the Cele Kula memorial near Nis in Serbia, built out of skulls of Serbs slaughtered by the Turks in 1821. Not a thing that foreigners often see.....so I am not unsympathetic to the Serbs, but good neighbours (perhaps for good reason) they certainly are not.
Peggy - not "allies" but "opportunists". The US paid a kind of ransome/ reward for every US airman returned to Uncle Sam's clutches.
I did say before that the Ustashe / Croatians did not come well in image terms out of WWII. Some were Nazi sympathisers, as you say, some fought with Tito, and more than a few fought on both sides as suited their purpose best. In general, they also fought the Serbs given any opportunity, and also occasionally fought the Bosnian Moslems. Only a few fought the Hungarians (unlike the Serbs), and they also [...]
Read the full comment fought the Italians in the Adriatic (the Italians being on the Nazi side under Mussolini.) Which makes the Croats Allied supporters on this front.
Confused ? Who wouldn't be. But this is the Balkans, and over-simplified explanations (such as, with respect, those that you have just submitted) are either propogandist or else completely wrong.
Where did my late father fight during WW II ? Er...Italy and also Jugoslavia, where he was British liaison officer with Tito's Slovene partisans. He warned me on his return in 1946, young as I was, never to accept one side's version of events on what was an extremely complex situation in Jugoslavia as then was.
Seeing how you will obviously discredit the link I posted below because it comes from a Serbian source I am posting you another one from encyclopedia Britannica. You cannot say this is a Serbian source.
http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/447279/A
This clearly tells you that the Croats were Nazis and collaborated with Hitler. Here is a photo showing Hitler and Pavelic shaking hands.
Epaminondas, you are the one who is trying to be simplistic here.
You are trying to state that the Croatians were not Nazis. Wrong, they were very much Nazis and it is a fact that Ante Pavelic met up with Hitelr and collaborated with Hitler. The Croats even gave the same salute.
Now don't go on trying to convince me that the Serbs were not allies to anyone but themselves. You are very wrong here too. What elese do you call people fighting a common enemy but allies?
Why did [...]
Read the full comment the Serbs save around 500 American airmen then? Was it because they were on the same side as the Americans or was it because they were only looking after themselves. Those same saved airmen openly state today that the Serbs saved them at their own risk of being killed.
Majority of Croats were Nazis (Ustasha). Yes, some were Partizans but most were not. The Mufti of Bosnia also collaborated with Hitler.
I know that this is not good news for you but the truth is the truth and you cannot change history. It is all recorded and all you have to do is open a book (not Albanian version) and you will see who the Nazis were and who were allies with the American, Brits and the French.
Perhaps you would brush aside a little fact that 700,000 (mainly Serbs), Jews and Roma were exterminated in Jasenovac. Sure, this is just a little unfortuante mistake that the Croats made during that war. This certainly does NOT say that the Croatians were vaguely on the Nazis side. It says that the Croatians were well and truly on the Nazis side and even adopted extermination camps.
I am amazed that you would minimize the crimes of the Croatians and Bosnian Muslims so much.
Take a look at this,
http://www.srpska-mreza.com/library/facts/ww2.html
They and Bosnian Muslims were clearly Nazis and here you are trying to minimise that.
There is proof all around us about who was who and who was allied with who. No need for anyone to listen to you or me. Simly open up a reputable history book (yes the one written by the west) and you will see the truth.
I think it is very inhumane to minimize those Nazi crimes committed in Yugoslavia during WW2 and I must say that you trying to do this is very offensive to all the victims.
It really is sad to read all the Albanian propaganda and lies about Serbian massacres. The propaganda about the number of Albanians being massacred by the Serbs during the Kosovo conflict has been dispelled and even Western journalists who wrote articles about such lies have retracted their stories. And as for the Albanian refugees during the war, please note that there was no refugee crisis before NATO started bombing the Serbs. Forcing a refugee crisis was a KLA tactic (upon US advice) in order to create sympathy. But what is true are the amount of Serb refugees that were forced [...]
Read the full comment from their homes by the Albanians and have never returned. I was in Kosovo about 4 years ago and was shocked to see wherever I went the destruction of Serbian homes, churches, monasteries etc. The week before I was there, Albanians infiltrated a Serbian village which was being "protected" by international troops and knifed to death a Serb teenager. This is typical of the everyday life of the Serbs in Kosovo. Yes, a great injustice has been done to the Serbs!! And to think that their Orthodox neighbors, the Bulgarians, prostituted themselves to the Americans and British and recognized this fiasco of a state, Kosovo as independent is simply sickening!! Shame on you, Bulgaria!! You will pay for this one day.
Time is working in favor of the truth. The truth is on Albanian's side. Barking dogs never can scare Albanians, no meter how big they are. Liars can not manipulate forever history and people.
Do not forget: won, who has the rights.
Peggy - you're being a bit simplistic about a couple of things. The Serbs during WW II weren't anybody's allies except their own; Tito drew the main body of his anti-Nazi partisans from Slovenia (as the Partisan Mountain Museum near Ljubljana demonstrates). The Albanians were a bit casuistical (and probably unwise in the longer term) to jump on the Nazi bandwagon in order to get at the Serbs, but they jumped off it again pretty quickly when Enver Hoxha and his Communist partisans (no connection with Tito) came along. Meanwhile the Serbs were pursuing a parallel battle with the Hungarians [...]
Read the full comment (who were pro-German but not Nazis) in Vojvodina around Subotica, and also with the anti-Nazi Croatian partisans as well.
The situation was very Balkan (i.e. anything but clear), and easy or facile conclusions such as "all Albanians were Nazis" should be avoided.
Just to finish this pot-pourri, there were also (as you say) Croatian Ustashi vaguely on the Nazi side (but not always) - not one of Croatia's finer moments - and there were also some Slovenes vaguely on the Nazi side too: the "Domobranci", or Home Guard. They were unlucky enough to be captured by the British after the war ended, who turned them over to Tito's partisans, and they were all massacred.
Like I say, no easy conclusions to be drawn and no solutions to emerge. Except that they all - Slovenes, Albanians, Croats, and Serbs, like to fight. Sometimes they fight each other, and sometimes they join ranks to fight somebody else.
The German Wehrmacht (i.e. the regular Army) formed the sensible view that they were all not to be trusted and best avoided, which by and large was also the Wehrmacht view about the Waffen SS, whom they regarded as a bunch of bloody amateurs who were not to be trusted either.
You can all spin it anyway you like to but the Jews more than any other people know their history.
Although, I don't think their decision has anything to do with history at all just like the US and their lackies' decision has nothing to do with a sense of protecting the Albanians, but all to do with politics and exploitation.
Politics is a dirty business no matter whose politics so don't come here saying we did this or that (most of it is a fabrication of your own verison of histry). [...]
Read the full comment Nobody cares. They are all just interested in their own gain and that is why they do what they do.
Oh Marco oh, tell me then. Who were the Ustashi?
Whose side were they on, how many Serbs and Jews they exterminated during the war?
Marco, do you know anything at all? Croatians were overwhelmingly Ustasha. Some fought on the Partisan side but the majority were Ustasha just like the Bosnian Muslims.
The grand mufti of Israel made a pact with Hitler and so did the Bosnian one.
You really don't know anything about what happened do you?
Epamin, a Nazi is a Nazi [...]
Read the full comment no matter how you spin it. A Nazi supports and fights for Hitler so don't tell me there was only two SS divisions so what? Who did the Albanians fight for? In order to fight AGAINST the Serbs they had to be against all the allies too because Serbs were the allies.
So then enlighten me. What army did the Albanians belong to?
hwo come nobody ever speaks of the Bolshevik Communist genocide of 80,000,000 Russians, Ukrainians, Chechens, etc etc etc etc etc???
because to speak would show victims as the real perpetrators
Peggy, Albanians created the SS division so they could fight the Serbs occupation. We would have made a deal with the Devil if necessary so we could free our lands from the Serb occupiers.
There is not even a single mention in history of Albanian violence towards Jews, as a matter of fact we sheltered many Jews of Thessaoliniki from your Orthodox brothers, the Greeks.
I'm really wondering what really is cooking over here between Serbs and Jews but anyway with this move of Israelis making me thing they are forgetting the holocaust and payback of Germans in billions of dollars to them for war cause and I'm thinking how in the world you support a nation who supported and some of them committed a genocide and massacres similar as Nazis did and that not long ago and still till today did 't pay a penny for they destruction's in all the wars they cause but hey this all is a lesson to know who [...]
Read the full comment is your friend and think twice and rise the Q really from where Serbian government in 90 got the Poisson who has a smell as chocolate and was released in the school, factories around Kosovo January 14 1990... I Know some written as a fake but hey me and other 800 student were in classroom's when it happen....and the only think something fake or lie you will forget but the truth NEVER...
israel shuld remember who saved them wenn they where in need and shuld remember that albanians never forget so if israel dosent recognise kosovo then they will loose the simpthy of 7 milion albanians time to showe whos side they are us or iran sirya
Peggy - you're over-simplifying (again ?). The Nazis had 27 small Waffen (i.e. military) SS Divisions recruited from every occupied country (except Poland), of which Albania had one out of the 27. I don't think it ever did very much except to pursue a few Albanian blood-feuds of its own (Albania does blood-feuds like Australia plays cricket - remember the Kanun of Lek.) Albania's two main tribes, Ghegs and Tosks, will rarely agree about anything.
So the fact that there was one small Albanian Waffen SS Division doesn't condemn the whole country, unwise as it may [...]
Read the full comment have been to set it up in the first place.
(It was the civilian SS - not the Waffen SS - who committed the Nazi atrocities and genocide in Central Europe, and they were composed only of Germans and Ukrainians. If you have visited Auschwitz / Birkenau (Oswiecim / Brzezinka in Polish) - as I have - you will know what real genocide looks like.
The only think I saw remotely like it in much more recent times was the massacre in Vukovar, which was of course committed by the Serbs and not the Albanians.
I bet Jeremic had a lot to tell him, especially about his recent visit to Tehran and Serbia's vote in favor of Iran at the UN.
And great way to pay them back by recognizing Palestine.
Oh, Peggy oh.
The Croats, the Bosnians and the Albanians fought AGAINST the Germans and LIBERATED their territories.
The Serbs waited for the Russians to liberate theirs.
Shlomo, you have every right to your opinion and Israel has every right to make their own decisions.
Jews and Serbs were never enemies and both suffered attempted extermination at the hands of Nazis (Croats, Bosnian Muslims and Albanians).
Unlike our Albanian friends here who try to distort history I am sure you know it very well and thus making your choices is based on reality and not some revised verion of history.
Having said that, I think you are probably not aware of the incredible propaganda against the Serbs in the [...]
Read the full comment civil war of former Yugoslavia. US (your ally) has gone to great lengths to demonise Serbs and have used their media and the media of their support countries to do just that. I would not believe everything written in the western media. I think you know how the US works when it wants to "bring democracy" to a country, translated exploit a country.
If you want to get to the whole truth you need to go beyong mainstream media and look for it. It is out there.
I wonder if your people attempted to help the Serbian refugees, or the Roma or anyone else fleeing Kosovo. Was it the Albanian refugees only you are speaking of? If so, did you not see other refugees or did your people buy into the "Racak massacre" victim as well?
You have to look for the truth. It will not fall into your lap while you are watching 6 o"clock news.
israel knows best that who's commited crimes need to face the consquences. there is no need for much detail, but like all nations stood up by israel after the war so it should be for kosovo.
thanks
Greetings all
Peggy thank you for your support,
I know that Serbia is in a rough road and any help is appriciated.
We are ready to help all who appriciate our graditude, in reciprocracy.
But i condemn your provocative way of dealing with the Albanians.
Living in Haifa our every day is a blessing, knowing the blind rockets might hit at any time.
Even if they dont hit the warning sirens drains our souls that is even more damaging.
[...]
Read the full comment /> There are countless Irani and Syrian radical sponsored groups that cherish our destruction. So for us fueling their determination is not the responce. Provocation would not achive anything.
Serbia does not have that fear so why the provocation?
If you did not know, Israel was one of the first to send in medical supplys and shelter to more than 120,000 Kosovo refugees becouse of the conflict in the end of 90's.
Also we have had the visa liberalisation with Albania for over 5 years now.
And you dont need to tell Jews who saved us and who didnt, we know very well, thankyou. I hope with this you understand what I mean. Including your history depicted here that does not corespond with ours.
But i must strongly add that Jewish Albanian relations never had any thorns through out hstory.
On the contrary they have prooved very useful in the IT industry and tourism.
With the latest visa deal i hope the Serbs can demonstrate their skills and potential just as the Albanians did when they had the chance.
Peace to all, and prosperity will follow :)
Peggy, you can lie from page to page, it will not change the fact that the number of Jews during the WW2 increased in Albania, even when occupied by Germany. On the other hand, Belgrad was declared "jew-free" as the first European city.
That are the facts, just as the fact that Albanians are very happy about the strong influence some jews have, most notably in the US. Because it was them who also encouraged the separation from the Serbia, as state which tried to commit their "shoah" to the Albanians but failed thanks to the [...]
Read the full comment Clinton administration which is full of jews. Thanks for ending the Serbian fascism.
Cheers
This comment has been hidden by the moderator because it contained дискриминация.
Well done Israel. You know exactly who your exterminaters were then and who they are now.
Albanians had a Nazi SS division in WW2 and they expect you to recognise them.
They even go as far as to say that they saved Jews during WW2. Rewriting history by them is not something they can get away with when it comes to the Jews. They know who saved them and who exterminated them.
The fact that Jews are so influencial around the world is certainly going to upset the Albanians.
serbia was tryin to do the same thing with Kosova ,what Israel is doing with palestinian people .isr
al politicans you have to think more about the holocaust and than you would think right about Kosova and the wrong politic of Serbia.