Regardless of the war and its atrocities: this "independence" is a gross violation of UN Security Council 1244 Resolution, a legally-binding resolution, to which the big Western powers themselves agreed AFTER THE WAR. Those who advocate disregarding 1244 should bear in mind the progressive dismantling of the global security system established after WWII, that lays all authority on the UN Security Council, and that has at least avoided wars between the big powers since 1945.

Thats exactly right...it can be seen as a high probability. The west is prime suspect concerning the civil war, it played a major part behind the scenes manipulating many events only to advance their own interests. The elite have their own agenda, and the balkans is their powder keg. Remember, Serbs won't start the war as you might think, they would put Serbs in an impossible position, considered an act of war. Who knows though, Albert Pike's letter has been pretty accurate so far;)

This comment has been removed by the moderator because it contained off-topic content

Serbia is not invading anyone...it's just preserving it's territorial integrity. Imperial powers once tried to dictate to the Serbs a "Rambouillet" agreement that no soveriegn nation would accept, and WW1 started, WW2 was really a continuation. The war in the 90s was manipulated by certain powers and expanded the issues of the previous wars.
I wonder who will start WW3?
No doubt the current world powers will crumble and new ones will arise. I still could win the noble prize, recent history has shown it has no real merit.

This comment has been removed by the moderator because it contained off-topic content

George II

"New civil war in the region coming up, prompted (once again) by the Serbs !"

Well it's not surprising as Serbs are not interested to live under an islamic state as countries like Saudi Arabia and Turkey are meddling in it's affairs. I totally support the Bosnian Serbs as they have battled against these islamofascists for centuries and more so recently. What's a matter George II? Serbs don't want to be forced into submission to the forces of glogalisation are the bad guys. With what the west has done to [...]

Read the full comment the Serbs during the last twenty years is criminal. In order for justice to be preserved Serbs will have to reclaim all their stolen territory, Bosnia, Dalmatia, Slavonia, Krajina and Kosovo. And those war criminal in the west to stand trial for crimes against humanity, ethnic cleansing and genocide.

George the imposter, it's just my orthodox way of avoiding writing the name of G-d. People can write him as they want, it's just my personal conviction.

Why do you say "G_D of Truth" ? Are you a Freemason or a Roscicrucian ?

The rest of us Europeans say "God", "Dieu", "Gott", "Bog", "Dievs", "Theos", and so on without any fear of Divine Retribution but with all reverence.

This tends to obstruct free exchange of views and communications....

Yours in some puzzlement

George II / Jerzy drugi

"does not exactly sound like that of a dispassionate and objective scholar. More like a polemic rant than anything else"
Well this best describes you, I have never seen from any of your posts any sort of objective discussion. Or for that matter any indication that you have conducted any objective research. Most of my research has come from sources who have had some direct link during those times and after. I am continuing to discover more truth everyday, as I don't remain static. My use of TRUTH is that I hold it above any of us mere [...]

Read the full comment mortals, something we MUST seek. Indeed one man's truth can be a lie for another, a matter of perception. But I am not one who accepts the "official version" for ANYthing really. There are still many open questions concerning the civil war. I am well aware of the official version of the "truth", but I have seen too much evidence that has left that "truth" as partial or down right lies. So as a result a new concept has opened up where there is a far deeper TRUTH to the matter which I SEEK.

From the cowardice that shrinks from new truths;
From the laziness that is content with half truths;
And from the arrogance that thinks it knows all truth;
Oh G-d of truth, deliver us.

Peggy - I am simply trying to establish objective facts from both sides, and it is certainly not up to you to unilaterally decide what is "relevant" or not (if anything, that is a task for the Moderators.)

George - your statement that (I quote) :

<<Shame on anyone who chooses lies over TRUTH, it is a testament to their poor character, lack or disregard of seeking right knowledge and no desire to maintain any ethical or moral standards.>>

does not exactly sound like that of a dispassionate [...]

Read the full comment and objective scholar. More like a polemic rant than anything else (people who go on about TRUTH in capital letters tend to be a little blinkered in their approach to issues. Professional scholars do not do it.)

With one exception perhaps - the famous Czech reformer Jan Hus (put to death by the Council of Constance in 1414) used as his personal motto "PRAVDA VITEZI".
Which, as I sure you will immediately know wuthout my needing to translate, means "Truth shall conquer" or "Truth shall overcome".

The Soviet Union used this rather nicely in naming their main propaganda newspaper "PRAVDA"....
I am sure (or maybe not so sure!) you see the point !

Peggy

It is plain to see the double standards employed by George II
and his constant evasive stance to avoid any subject that will not implicate the Serbs as the "aggressors". This is a deliberate action to purpertrate his bias agenda and continue the false propaganda that "justified" the west's illegal actions against
the Serbian people. His clear hatred of the Serbian people is evident as he continueously side steps amounting evidence that would implicate any forces other than the Serbs.
Shame on anyone who chooses lies over TRUTH, it [...]

Read the full comment is a testament to their poor character, lack or disregard of seeking right knowledge and no desire to maintain any ethical or moral standards.

George II, what does it matter if Carla is the flavour of the month or not? Besides you can have a hundred different opinions on anything or anyone if you look hard enough.
I was asking if Carla is a liar that's all. I don't care to do into her biography.

My question was. Was she a liar when she went after the Serbs so enthusiastically and accused Serbs of war crimes? If she was honest then why would she lie about organ harvesting? Why be truthful one day and a liar the next? [...]

Read the full comment

Simple question should have a simple answer without having to go in circles about this or that.

Don't start with she not the flavour of the month in Slovenia or Croatia. That's irrelevant to what I am saying.

Peggy - here is the most objective account of Del Ponte's career that I can find (from the BBC):

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/1809185.stm

I was making no value-judgment on her, but just commenting that she is not "flavour of the month" with either the Slovene or the Croatian Embassies in London, and the websites that they control. Personally, I am neutral.

She failed (maybe understandably) to prise acknowledged war criminals Karadzic and Mladic out of their "safe house" inside Serbia - do you have any comment on [...]

Read the full comment that ?

George II, and Ljubljana and Zagreb can vouch who is credible and who is not but some others can't?

C'mon Goerge, you take information from anywhere as long as it suits your point of view. I already said that is is human nature and you are living up to it. There is so much contradicting information out there but naturally you will take it from sources you agree with.

Carla was highly regarded by you guys when she was speaking up against Serbia and now she is not worth listening to. She [...]

Read the full comment fell from grace as soon as she decided to start speaking about things that are unpleasant to some people. So she was honest when she condemned the Serbs only and now she is a liar when she decides to condemn the Albanians as well.

Why am I not surprised that you would try to discredit anyone who dares to point their finger in the direction of "poor poor innocent Albanians"? All the sources I have brought up in the past you, (sorry Epaminondas) has tried to discredit because he didn't like the message and now you are going after this one who others are bringing up as a source.

You cannot discredit everyone. You will end up looking foolish. So, just accept that everyone committed crimes in Kosovo and move on.

- "George " - Del Ponte is highly discredited in certain quarters (notably in Ljubljana and Zagreb) - is she really that reliable as a witness ?

That said, Swizerland is a civilised "cover" for all sorts of activities that would be illegal anywhere else, such as assisted-suicide. As the old (or rather: new) joke has it:

"Two RyanAir tickets to Zurich please, one for bobonne/granny and one for me. One one-way/single, and one return. Don't worry about the absence of heavy luggage - we're not taking much".

There is compelling evidence that detail atrocities committed by albanians against serbs during the lat 1990s and some in power today made money, millions of dollars worth. Del Ponte's book tells about the obstructions she endured "in her attempts to prosecute people guilty of the war crimes, committed during the armed conflicts on the Balkans in the nineties".

Interesting that the "organ donor / recipient centre in all Europe is Switzerland." "Carla Del Ponte's book on her work as Chief Prosecutor of the Hague Tribunal, contains statements, which are impermissible for a representative of the government [...]

Read the full comment of Switzerland," Spokesman for the Swiss Foreign Department Jean-Philippe Jeannerat stated.
Italian News says: "[Del Ponte] claimed she was in no position to press charges or obtain sufficient evidence due to a lack of cooperation by the UN and Kosovo officials."
"The Kosovo Liberation Army's veteran leader, Hashim Thaci, now Kosovo's prime minister, in the mid-1990s spent time in Switzerland, a centre for radical albanian emigre circles, where he mysteriously acquired funds for the KLA."
"[Del Ponte] has in particular accused UN officials and local authorities in Kosovo of being uncooperative in investigating alleged crimes against Serb civilians during the ethnic Albanian rebellion in 1998-1999, which ultimately led to independence."

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2009/may/04/organ-harvesting-probed/

It is hardly possible that martti ahtisaari did not know about this monstrous acts by the kla terroritsts. His endosement of this criminal government is a war crime and he needs to be endicted for his collaberation and support for the illegal crime.

George II

Fri, Oct 16 2009 00:16 CET

"Well, Peggy ma cherie, as I have said before, all Kosovo needs to do is either to federate with Luxemb(o)urg (as the Belgians spell it !) or else become another DOM/PTOM under France. Either way, they get into Europe via the back door, which as a small mini-state they can do. (I would not, however, advice this tactic for the Ukraine !) "

Good, let me know when it's done.
I wouldn't hold my breath [...]

Read the full comment though.

Hardly "black information" rumour put about by the Serbs", there is an investgation being conducted by Swiss Senator Dick Marty on behalf of the Council of Europe. Madame Prosecutor, Carla Del Ponte ex-chief prosecutor for war crimes in former Yugoslavia first made it public with her book "The Hunt: Me and War Criminals".

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/apr/12/warcrimes.kosovo

If the EU persists in colonising Kosovo with it's illegal policy then no doubt it will lead to war. This attempt to undermine Serbia with disregard for international law will not be acceptable to MANY nations. Proving beyond doubt that that the EU has no respect for the territorial integrity of any nation, and reveal it's corruption by dealing with an illegal government of terrorists, criminal mafia WANTED for War Crimes.

Well, Peggy ma cherie, as I have said before, all Kosovo needs to do is either to federate with Luxemb(o)urg (as the Belgians spell it !) or else become another DOM/PTOM under France. Either way, they get into Europe via the back door, which as a small mini-state they can do. (I would not, however, advice this tactic for the Ukraine !)

As for money laundering etc., Luxembo(u)rg already practices this to a fine art, so no problems there.

Not sure about the "organ harvesting" bit though; people often post darkly about [...]

Read the full comment this but nobody ever gives any specifics. Are there any, or is is just a "black information" rumour put about by the Serbs ?

Actually, the organ donor / recipient centre in all Europe is Switzerland (unfortunately not an EU member-state), but it also does money laundering and all sorts of interesting financial services. Maybe Kosova could attach itself there instead ? Switzerland in militarily and politically neutral, so it could be a good home. Also it is tri-lingual, so a fourth language shouldn't make too much difference.

Bonne fin de soiree / Gruess Gott / Va fa'n culo

George II, you are full of hope for Kosovo.
It's nice to see that you belive in ifs and buts.

We are talking about stolen territory here. We are talking about violation of international law.
Most of the world will not recognise Kosovo so what is going to happen to those people there? They cannot even use a legitimate passport (as far as most of the world is concerned) to travel. Does this really sound like a succsful country to you?

Besides, what money are they going to [...]

Read the full comment launder through anywhere? Human and organ trafficking money?
How can a country exist on this export alone? Tell me, how are they going to trade with with world when they cannot even set up embassies there because they are not recognised?

US can only do so much with the borrowed money they have.

To my namesake - what was wrong with the Sovietskiy Soyuz / Soviet Union ? To be sure a lot was, but it had its strengths too.

As regards Kosovo, all it needs is to acquire DOM/PTOM status with France or Belgium (or Luxembourg) and it can join the EU tomorrow. It will have to join the EuroZone, of course, if it hasn't done so already, and it can then have its silhouette printed in the borders of new Euro banknotes just like St Pierre, Miquelon, and all the other DOM/PTOMs . (I bet you all [...]

Read the full comment wondered what those funny smudges were around the edges of Euro notes - well, now you know !)

Beyond that, namesake George,as you say G-d rather than God, I think you may be a Freemason. Nothing against the masons myself, but they have been accused of international conspiracy more than once.

Peggy :-) @}-,-'-

The EU seems to be on a path of becoming a federal dictatorship, it literally is the new soviet union. Where the soviet union suppressed national identity and everyone was termed soviets, the same as the EU where they are promoting the label "european" rather than a person's nationality. The ideology of the EU social-democratic, statis and major part is political correctness. This is a systematic introduction of ideology which could later be enforced with oppressive measures, by the new Gestapo: Europol. The inability to create a competitive environment, the overregulation of the [...]

Read the full comment economy, the bureaucratisation, it is going to lead to economic collapse. The EU will collapse just like the soviet union, leaving behind a huge devestation. They will learn that you can't really suppress the mind from it's national identity as it rebounds in equal proportions. There will be great ethnic tension, in particular after an economic collapse, so many immigrants and more from third world countries. There's already tensions about the rapid growth of muslims soon to become a majority. It would become Yugoslavia on a "European Continental" scale that would be disasterous. Already there are many people within who are discontent with what the EU has become as to what it was when they first joined many years ago. And the lands of nations will be covered with the blood of Patriots and tyrants once again as it seems they need to be reminded from time to time. The EU doesn't have a future, it will collapse, the sooner the better so less damage it will cause. Their parliament building is based on the image of the Tower of Babel...which scripture says G-d destroyed. EU can rant what they like, it won't matter what they think Kosovo is. This is the same EU powers along with USA that illegally bombed the soveriegn country of Serbia while promoting a lie for their own self serving interests. I believe in the Law of Karma, what goes around comes around and the US/EU is destined to experience a great bloody lesson in "balkanisation". Serbs will never let go of Kosovo, empires and superstates come and go, Serbs will end up ruling over Kosovo again because KOSOVO IS SERBIA!!!

Peggy - you ignore the "exception clause" granted to France over the "DOM/PTOM" territories (you can see these mapped on the border of any Euro banknote). Basically, these importunate, small, and poor colonial possessions are part of the EU, but on a low-profile basis. (They receive lots of EU money as a result, though)

Kosova/Kosovo could do the same, as long as it finds an EU sponsor such as Luxembourg whom nobody particularly dislikes. (Anyway, Luxembourg has so much money from other EU countries stashed away in anonymous un-named bank accounts that it can do as [...]

Read the full comment it pleases. It might find Kosovo genuinely useful as a new partner.)

Just a hopefully constructive thought in this otherwise very non-constructive debate (no disrespect to you, but my namesake doesn't sound like somebody who relishes dialogue !)

George II, Kosovo must first be recognised as a country before that can become a condition for Serbia. If majority of the world does not recognise Kosovo which is the case now, how then are they a country?
Let's say that is a condition for Serbia. Fine, then by the same token Kosovo must have good relations with it's neighbours before it can enter EU. Now if Kosovo cannot come to some sort of an agreement with Serbia, they both get left out of the EU. Guess which one can survive better?

Serbia can [...]

Read the full comment exist without being a member of EU because it doesn't rely on charity but Kosovo will always be a basket case unable to trade with with most of the world and their people unable to travel with a passport recognised by most of the world.

Who is going to be worse off in the end?

Well, at least my namesake agrees with me about Qualified Majority Voting (QMV).........

This whole business about ""KOSOVO IS SERBIA"" is a bit silly. Granted that Kosovo/Kosova has few international credentials of its own, it makes sense for it to federate with a non-threatening EU member state, somewhere like Luxembourg for example.

KOSOVO IS LUXEMBOURG

The draconian European Constitution at first rejected was then revamped and renamed as the Lisbon Treaty...also known as the End of Nations. A new EU entity with totalitarian dictatorial powers, a New European Federalist Superstate, europe's HOPE was
Ireland who was the only country that had a referendum which said NO. The EU doesn't believe in democracy so the Irish politicians to warm up to the euro elites instigated another referendum. The EU then broke it's own rules and interfered with the Irish pro-euro
campaign while scaring and bullying the Irish to vote Yes, although as [...]

Read the full comment a matter of law the recent referendum was a monstrous illegality. Although while Ireland at least got two referendums, no other country is being allowed to vote at all, not very democratic
I don't think. If the treaty had been put to a public vote, it would have been rejected by 95 per cent of member states. The Council of Ministers would be turned into the EU government, those ministers would then be responsible to the EU and not be answerable to their elected parliaments. It IS non democratic, the members of the constitutional assembly have been
selected, NOT elected. Both the Lisbon Treaty and its former version the EU Constitution have been drafted by a group of self-appointed administrators and politicians.
As it is plain to see, the goal is convert Europe into one political unit with a non-elected president, with a unified foreign policy representation and with a full territorial, economic and social cohesion. As these non-elected representaries will no longer recognise soveriegn nation sates and move to a "Qualified Majority Voting", they will decide and effect all the aspects, on all levels, on all citizens of the EU.
THIS is against democracy and international law, it is a breach and violation of human rights. ahtisaari obviously does not respect sovereign nation states, therefore disregards international law as he campaigns for the
recognition of Kosovo's illegal UDI which he himself is the principle architect, SHAME on
marrtti ahtisaari's criminal acts of war crimes. Serbia under and in support of international law doesn't have to nor should ever recognise Kosovo, and the EU should be cautioned how it deals with Kosovo, as it will BE JUDGED according to it's illegal activities and acts of WAR.

Long Live The Republic of Serbia and UNSC Resolution 1244 which guarrantees the sovereignty and territorial integrity of Serbia...which INCLUDES Kosovo

KOSOVO IS SERBIA

Ah, Peggy, there is one small detail that you have overlooked.

That small detail is the Lisbon Treaty, which removes the need for unanimity on many issues and introduces "qualified majority" voting instead. Once this Treaty is in force - probably after yet nother Defenestration of Prague - a lot of the ground rules will change as a result.

This will affect the Serbia/Kosovo issue as well as many others. Basically, the outcome will be that more issues can be pushed through by a majority of Member States, and the ability of [...]

Read the full comment objecting Member States to "veto" will be quite drastically reduced.

(Note to Moderators: I don't propose to explain either Qualified Majority Voting (QMV) or Defenestration unless called upon to do so. But I have given seminars and training courses on QMV, so I can Bore For England on this topic !)

George II, let's just let time show us which is which.

I am not nervous about anything here because I know that EU cannot insist on Serbia recognising Kosovo any more than they can insist on the five EU members who have not to do so. They have even said it themselves.

Perhaps it is you who should go away and collaborate a bit more with Aries on how to insult me next.

Peggy - most problems are simple if you apply enough intellectual effort to them (source: Bertrand Russell, of whom you may have heard.)

When you say:

""EU as a body has never recognised Kosovo so as far as EU is concerned Kosovo is not a country threfore Serbia cannot normalize her relations with something which does not exist.
Athisaari's plan is in the rubbish bin. It will never be debated in the UN so it cannot even have any bearing on the situation. It cannot be implemented legally if it [...]

Read the full comment was not adopted in the UN in the first place. ""

this is a masterpiece of compressed and fallacious deductive logic.

Go away, work it out, and re-think it. It's about as full of non-sequiturs as a Bombay Aloo curry.
Or else read Freddy Ayer's "Language, Truth and Logic" (available from all good bookshops.)

"" States that had conflicts in the Balkans will not be able to join the European Union without normalizing their relations. In this case, Serbia cannot join the EU without recognizing Kosovo,""


EU as a body has never recognised Kosovo so as far as EU is concerned Kosovo is not a country threfore Serbia cannot normalize her relations with something which does not exist.
Athisaari's plan is in the rubbish bin. It will never be debated in the UN so it cannot even have any bearing on the situation. It cannot be [...]

Read the full comment implemented legally if it was not adopted in the UN in the first place.

It's not as simple as you would like us to think.

Even if what you said is true, by the same token Kosovo can never join the EU without normalising relations with Serbia either. It works both ways you know, but this argument will not come up.

In order to remove the need for my namesake to present us many paragraphs of argument, can I just quote one area where EU law and practice are a great deal stricter than in the outside UN-governed world, and also one where we all are consumers and (some of us) growers.

That area is wine and viticulture. EU internal standards on wine production, labelling, bottling, vineyard cultivation, vine varieties, import/export, and packaging, are far stricter than those applied in the rest of the world. (The Office International de la Vigne et du Vin / OIV is [...]

Read the full comment a UN-recognised advisory body which governs the rest of the world in wine, and which does a very good job in doing so.)

The EU and the OIV talk a great deal (very constructively), but what the EU decides is law - within the EU - and what the OIV decides is only a recommendation and not binding on member-governments. That said, the OIV's "opinion" carries great weight internationally, and the EU Commission listens to it. So, in former times, did both Federativna Jugoslavija and the CCCP/ USSR.

As I say, an excellent exemplar of EU/ international cooperation, and one which is hopefully non-controversial in this forum. But the "bottom line" is that the EU rules are tighter and may well be internally different, which is the message we all need to take away.

George - your use of the legal term "uti possedesis" indicates that you are indeed a lawyer, though you omit the word "juris" after it.

Put simply, the Treaty of Rome and its successors give the European Union the right to impose internal conditions that may differ from the international community at large (as regulated by the UN and the Council of Europe - not to be confused with the European Council !).

Hence Ahtisaari's statement:

"" States that had conflicts in the Balkans will not be able [...]

Read the full comment to join the European Union without normalizing their relations. In this case, Serbia cannot join the EU without recognizing Kosovo,""

is quite legitimate and proper as relating to the EU's own accession rules.

What happens outside the EU (such as in Georgia, as you cite) can be an entirely different matter. That is why we have the EU, to apply our own internal rules and procedures that may be different from the international community as a whole.

As the EU Court of Justice has put it more than once "si c'etait autrement, la situation serait depourvue de tout sens".

I think this fully answers your contention / argument: in order to achieve EU accession, Serbia must recognise Kosovo. But if it does not with EU accession, it can play the UN card for as long as it likes.

I see that the links I have provided to articles written by people like John Pilger, Gregory Clark and others have been removed for some reason.

Perhaps the truth is insulting to some people.
Wonder why links to articles which are not rude, racist but factual should be removed from here.

The report by the International Fact-Finding Mission on the Conflict in Georgia

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/shared/bsp/hi/pdfs/30_09_09_iiffmgc_report.pdf

a remarkable passage...

... "international law does not recognise a right to unilaterally create a new state based on the principle of self-determination outside the colonial context and apartheid. An extraordinary acceptance to secede under extreme conditions such as genocide has so far not found general acceptance.

As will be shown later, in the case of the conflict in August 2008 and the ensuing recognition
[...]

Read the full comment of South Ossetia and Abkhazia, the Mission has found that genocide did not take place. Furthermore, much of international state practice and the explicit views of major powers such as Russia in the Kosovo case stand against it.

This applies also to a process of dismemberment of a state, as might be discussed with regard to Georgia after the dissolution of the Soviet Union. According to the overwhelmingly accepted uti possidetis principle, only former constituent republics such as Georgia but not territorial
sub-units such as South Ossetia or Abkhazia are granted independence in case of dismemberment of a larger entity such as the former Soviet Union.

Hence, South Ossetia did not have a right to secede from Georgia, and the same holds true for
Abkhazia for much of the same reasons. Recognition of breakaway entities such as Abkhazia and
South Ossetia by a third country is consequently contrary to international law in terms of an
unlawful interference in the sovereignty and territorial integrity of the affected country,
which is Georgia."

An analysis...

"the war in Georgia has ruled that provinces do not have the right to secession, thus admitting that the unilateral secession of Kosovo from Serbia was a clear violation of international law."

Russians sure know how to prove a point

This comment has been hidden by the moderator because it contained квалификации.

This comment has been hidden by the moderator because it contained квалификации.

This comment has been removed by the moderator because it contained не е по темата на статията

This comment has been hidden by the moderator because it contained квалификации.

This comment has been hidden by the moderator because it contained квалификации.

This comment has been hidden by the moderator because it contained квалификации.

The text comes from many sources including the "western press", the report is by the International
Fact-Finding Mission on the Conflict in Georgia, commissioned by the EU Council of Ministers.
it argues that "international law does not recognise a right to unilaterally create a new state based on the principle of self-determination outside the colonial context and apartheid.

An independant Kosovo is the result of a military based conflict, NATO’s 78 days of merciless bombings in 1999 illegally on a soverign nation state, mass media propaganda to manufacture consent, while supporting a [...]

Read the full comment known terrorist organisation known as the KLA.

ahtisaari says it's not important how many nations recognise Kosovo. "What is important is that Kosovo has been recognized by over 65 per cent of the world's
wealth." The Nobel Laureate teaches
us a brand new principle in international affairs here: wealth makes right! He has now admitted
that he was in fact biased towards Pristina and independence, so much for an impartial mediator to negotiate a mutually acceptable compromise. ahtisaari gave broad hints of his bias, the most notable of which was his alleged statement that the Serbs were guilty as a nation for the acts
of Slobodan Milosevic, and therefore did not deserve to keep Kosovo. ahtisaari, far from taking
a neutral stance or the role of a good mediator encouraged the west's interests for Kosovo to
become independant.

This decision of the UNSC upholds Resolution 1244, guaranteeing the territorial integrity of Serbia, the status neutrality of EULEX, and it clearly stipulates that the EU mission shall not implement the martti ahtisaari plan.
"Serbia caanot join the EU without recognising Kosovo" OK...I can accept that within the EU context
and also as blackmail, not very diplomatic of this man of "peace"

The Nobel Committe gave it's prize to the opposite of the UN Charter norm of peace by peaceful means.
It gave it to a man who worked for an extremely unjust, far-too-late and non-mediated solution to the
Kosovo conflict. So I stand by my use of the statement, "A testament to ahtisaari's shameful disregard
for International Law and contempt of the UN Charter."
ahtisaari is a man of peace? In a world where peace is war and war is peace....

to Peggy - have you ever read the books by Gary Larson (translated into Finnish by Lars Suomissen). The link is:

http://www.beta.reddit.com/r/science/comments/9t0h2/the_term_thagomizer_was_coined_by_gary_larson_in/

One of Gary Larson's favorite visual images is a duck (or several ducks). So you might be on familiar territory....

George II

Mon, Oct 12 2009 12:25 CET

"Peggy - not sure how you work out that Epaminondas originates from Yugoslav ethnicity. I don't reckon he does. I think he is genuinely a Brit, as he says.

What ethnicity do you think George has ? (One that has a lot of old grudges to settle, that's for sure !)"

Show me a Brit who speaks the languages of the former Yugoslavia and is so passionate about what is happening there.
Why would [...]

Read the full comment a Brit learn those languages for a start? They are not the usual languages one learns at Cambridge. Are they?

He was getting very heated towards the end and very abusive. This shows a personal involvement on some level.

George, I really don't know what background he has but I would guess Serbian or Greek. There is no shame in disclosing your ethnic background so why would one insist on being from stock they clearly are not if not to deceive?

I cannot prove any of this but you know the saying, if it quacks like a duck etc.

Yes, we all know Obama's Nobel Peace Prize was perhaps a tad premature !

But meanwhile, where does this text that you quote actually come from:

"""The EU-sponsored report on the war in Georgia has ruled that provinces do not have the right to secession, thus admitting that the unilateral secession of Kosovo from Serbia was a clear violation of international law."" Is it UN Resolution 1244 . Doesn't read like it ????

If there are two international judgments in conflict, usually the one issued by the higher [...]

Read the full comment of the two authorities prevails. But this has yet to be tested in the case of a judgment of the European Court (the Luxembourg one, not the Hague one). Otherwise there is a bit of a stand-off, and both texts are adjudged to be equally valid within their respective contexts.

So, with respect, I think your use of the word "shameful" is quite misapplied, and you should withdraw it. In the meantime, Ahtisaari's statement that:

"""States that had conflicts in the Balkans will not be able to join the European Union without normalizing their relations. In this case, Serbia cannot join the EU without recognizing Kosovo,""

is quite justifiable within an EU context. And after all, as ex-Prime Minister of Finland, Ahtisarri should be pretty familiar with this ground too.

By the way, I am not ""Epaminondas". I am Finnish.

Your apology is accepted Epaminondas, but your point doesn't apply, if you weren't so one sided you would admit to the fact that Kosovo's so called independence is a violation of the
Republic of Serbia's sovereignty and territorial integrity as mandated under the UN's Resolution 1244. A testament to ahtisaari's shameful disregard for International Law and contempt of the UN Charter. As for the Nobel Peace Prize, it certainly has lost credibility in recent days as it was awarded to someone who hasn't done anything to deserve such an acknowledgement reassuring it's mere political nature.

Sorry - slip of the finger onto an adjacent key ! I meant to say that Ahtisaari is a UN diplomat, not a UK one ! But the rest of my point still applies - not only does he hold the Nobel Peace Prize, but he also served as UN undersecretary general for administration and management from 1987 to 1991 .

So I think we can safely assume that he is fully familiar with the UN Charter in particular and with International Law in general.

To assume ahtisaari is a UK diplomat is as ignorant as to claim he knows about International
Law.

Considering his words, "States that had conflicts in the Balkans will not be able to join the European Union without normalizing their relations. In this case, Serbia cannot join the EU without recognizing Kosovo,"

Yet the "The EU-sponsored report on the war in Georgia has ruled that provinces do not have the right to secession, thus admitting that the unilateral secession of Kosovo from Serbia was a clear violation of international law." [...]

Read the full comment

Thats a clear indication to ahtisaari's ignorance of International Law, and this breach and violation of a UN members sovereignty and territorial integrity is self evident.

Peggy - not sure how you work out that Epaminondas originates from Yugoslav ethnicity. I don't reckon he does. I think he is genuinely a Brit, as he says.

What ethnicity do you think George has ? (One that has a lot of old grudges to settle, that's for sure !)

A senior UK diplomat like Ahtisaari is unlikely to be as ignorant of International Law as you claim. A bit like saying the Pope doesn't know about Christianity.....

"The EU-sponsored report on the war in Georgia has ruled that provinces do not have the right to secession, thus admitting that the unilateral secession of Kosovo from Serbia was a clear violation of international law."

Obviously United Nations special envoy Martti Ahtisaari has no idea about the Rule of International Law. The Republic of Serbia who is a member state of the UN which states under Resolution 1244 that Kosovo and Metohija is legally part of Serbia but administered by the UN. He is in breach of the UN Charter and is therefore no longer [...]

Read the full comment fit to hold his position.

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George - your namesake died from a particularly unpleasant form of syphilis, brought upon himself by (as contemporary chronicles say) "much cursing and wheezing and railing at his opposers".

Are you not in some danger of going along the same path ?

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This comment has been hidden by the moderator because it contained квалификации.

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Peggy

It is quite clear Epaminondas is anti Serb and that his true ethnic background is from somewhere within the former Yugoslavia. The one sided view he has presented in order to maintain the western status quo of demonizing Serbs is a self serving mechanism and a continuation of the of his true ethnicity's cause to promote the anti Serb propaganda. My referment to his "interllect" is just to establish that if he was trully someone who seeks truth and right knowledge, there is enough information and sources from within the west that debunks the "official" [...]

Read the full comment version. The
mainstream villification of the Serbs gels with the agenda of the west to establish hegemony over the
World. Many interllects from the west are well aware of this fact, whereas with Epaminondas it just allows him to use the western's geopolitical objective in the balkans as a means of subjective
attacks on the Serbs to justify his own ethnic agenda. This bias stand he undertakes just clarifies he is only about the promotion of a lie, and the defence of his own beliefs(to become a lie).
It IS not objective therefore not really discriminate, interllects continue to use the tool of
learning, reason and discrimination, whereas the focus of this "interllect" is purely discrimination against the Serbs.

"Wouldn't you meanwhile be better occupied in campaigning for Aboriginal Rights in Australia, this being a genuine Good Cause that is under-resourced?

Aborigines already have rights in Australia, and have many services in order to help them in many ways, there is a much more deep rooted social problem. One that was inherited when those polite,
well-mannered, civilised British people came and uprooted their culture, brought their dis-eases and addictions, sabotaged them mentally and spiritually, took control of the lands resources while conducting ethnic cleansing and genocide. Hmmmm...not much has changed since then....

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George, are you referring to Epaminondas when you said someone of his intellect.

Here is what he wrote:

"Wouldn't you meanwhile be better occupied in campaigning for Aboriginal Rights in Australia, this being a genuine Good Cause that is under-resourced?

Meanwhile, break open a few tinnies and look after those wallabies, sport. "

Diverting from the subject that much and trying to insult is not the work of someone with great intellect.
Asking Epaminonondas to take anything into consideration which might shed [...]

Read the full comment light on the fact that Serbs were villified for reasons other than getting the truth out thre is not possible because this man is clearly anti Serb and will find a way to punch holes in your argument no matter how much he has to distort your words or even get away from the subject.

Epaminondas is clearly not British. He might've been born there but he certainly does not come from British stock like he wants us to believe. He gets too emotionally involved and tries to insult you too much for someone who does not come from the former Yugoslavian stock.

I am just letting you know this before you waste too much time arguing with him. His bias is very clear.

Far from one sided like yourself I prefer to shatter the one victim, one enemy myth promoted mainly by the WESTERN MILITARY/INDUSTRIAL/CORPORATE MEDIA about the war in the former Yugoslavia. The western corporate media has failed at it's job as a watchdog to inform the public on many subjects regarding Western foreign policy, and act instead as a propaganda machine for the interests of the elite. During the course of the war it was in the interests of the west to demonize the Serbs with their one sided view and “the manufacture of consent” to justify their acts of aggression. [...]

Read the full comment I don't imagine that you would be able to find it in the Western Press, it's not inline with the "official" version. John Swainton, Chief of Staff of the New York Times “The business of a journalist now is to destroy the truth, to lie outright, to pervert, to vilify, fall at the feet of Mammon and sell himself for his daily bread. We are tools, vessels of rich men behind the scenes, we are jumping jacks. They pull the strings; we dance. Our talents, our possibilities and our lives are the properties of these men. We are intellectual prostitutes.” Dutch soldiers complained there is a complete repression against them in Holland that had lasted since the alleged massacre because they are blamed for allegedly “failing to protect Srebrenica”. Only an idiot would rely on mainstream corporate media for the truth, the media jumped on board in 2002-2003 that there were weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, and there are countless other
examples of the corporate media's betrayal of the uninformed masses. You should try the eastern
press so that your not so one sided while listening/reading what the builderberg group want you
to think, a man of your intelligence shouldn't have too much trouble.
I was referring to the markale market attack on the 28th August 1995 in Sarajevo when the UN blamed the Bosnian Serbs while ignoring the reports of British and French experts and even their own UN artillery. Leading to the extensive airstrikes of Serb military and civilian targets leaving their poison of depleted uranium all over Bosnia, as many other nations before and since, not very civilised of the west, but not to expect much from such a barbaric people. As for Warsaw Hotel Europejski, thats so funny...lol, I love it, you say it's against Western definition of Good Manners. Since when
and how dare the western civilised folks claim to be the moral or ethical standard. The west has
caused more wars, rape, pillage, destruction, terror, genocide, ethnic cleansing while mouthing peace, freedom, justice, rights, and majority rule, all over the world...hypocrites, liars and decievers, especially the deplorable BRITISH. The time will come very soon when the EAST will HAVE to teach the west some good MANNERS and the rule of LAW.
I think they are unwilling to catch Mladic, Serbs have developed a very low status for the
international community(NWO) and their disregard for international law.
Now...with the Slovenians I mentioned, I was rather surprised with your declaration that they
are not genuine Slovenians, rather they are from other balkan states. Now I thought a man from your seeming balkan experience would know that people from that area proudley declare what they are, except montenegron's who generally say they are Serbs, "mightiest of the Serbs". I never gave an impression that there was some mass exodus, but yes I have and continue to meet even BRACHA SLOVENSI from three different states in OZ who have immigrated here. I can go on and on but for example one family who's been here for two years, the man was firefighter, I asked, I thought it would be good in Slovenia now especially as it is in EUSSR. But, he lost his job and couldn't find work, and didn't want to bust his ass for low pay, wanted to come here for a greater chance of prosperity and give his children a good opportunity in life, he didn't speak highly of Slovenia, nor have many others. Obviously not as many from the other balkan states, but enough considering slovenia's small population, and probably more as the economies of the west continue to decline.

Well, Peggy, it would be a great deal easier to respond if you could make your questions clearer in the first place, and I am sure I am not the only user of this site to say this.

Meanwhile, your comment that:

<<Trying to discredit the education system in Australia is a very ambitious project >>

indicated that you are indeed (as some of us had suspected - myself not being the only one) an Australian schoolteacher With A Mission To Preserve The Serbs.

[...]

Read the full comment (It might be better if you could use Australian resources to prise Mladic and Karadzic out of their refuge in Pale and transport them to the ICJ in The Hague). I can give you the URL to the Hague investigation team if you wish.)

Wouldn't you meanwhile be better occupied in campaigning for Aboriginal Rights in Australia, this being a genuine Good Cause that is under-resourced?

Meanwhile, break open a few tinnies and look after those wallabies, sport.

Wow Epaminondas, you are twisting yourself into a pretzel trying to discredit what I wrote.

Sure I said that Slovenians have been here for decades and then I asked you who are these people Slovenia is deporting?

These two things are separate and the question asked was a response to what you wrote.

Trying to nit pick here is getting you all twisted out of shape.
I bet even you don't know what you want to say any more.

Try to discredit [...]

Read the full comment facts and not look for past or present tense errors where there are none.
There is not one fact I wrote here you can discredit. Trying to discredit the education system in Australia is a very ambitious project, even for a great history major graduate from Cambridge university like yourself.

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Try telling that to the Slovenians who frequent their clubs here.
I can tell you that they are Slovenians and not refugees. We are talking about people who have been here for 40 or so years but hey you are not to know that.
You only know what your Slovenian officials told you.

I can tell you one thing for sure. Nobody says they are of a certain ethnic group here to which they don't belong. Everyone tells you they are Croats, Macedonians, Bosniaks, Serbs or Montenegrin. Montenegrin sometimes say they are [...]

Read the full comment also Serbs but that's it.

Please don't tell someone who actually lives in Australia and who has met many people from different parts of the former Yugoslavia who is who here. Only speak about something you actually know for sure.

BTW, refugees have come to this country from all over the world and that includes former Yugoslavia, but none of them will claim to be something they are not. That I know for sure.

They are almost "recent Slovene citizens", i.e. those refugees who acquired Slovene nationality during the "war years" 1993-1999, when other parts of former Jugoslavija were locked in internecine civil and military conflict (for which blame the JNA). With the exception of Macedonia (former Jugoslav republic of), I hasten to say, though some Macedonians did settle in Slovenia, mainly running the vice trade - what little there is in Ljubljana - and also a bit of cross-border smuggling. They too are now emigrating, or being encouraged to do so. Post-EU Slovenia is not the "Balkan republic" that it briefly was 1992-99; [...]

Read the full comment if anything, it has rather turned in the other direction of strict compliance with EU and national rules on anything from income tax to farm animal welfare.
The annual "Kravni Bal" (Cows' Ball) near Lake Bled is an event that you might find of much interest (you might even find some relatives or fellow-emigrants !)

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Epaminondas, let's try this again.

You wrote this,

"Fifthly and finally, the "Slovenes" you meet emigrating to Oz are not genuine Slovenes at all. They are the refugees from Bosnia, Croatia, and even Serbia"

My reply to that was,

"How the hell would you know who emigrated to Australia? Do you live here? Are you that arrogant to now tell us, the people who have lived here for decades, who is from where?"

Your reply to that was,
[...]

Read the full comment
"
Peggy - my sources are the British Ambassador to Slovenia (and his secretary who handled all the Interior Ministry papers), also the Slovene Minister of the Interior (who remarked to me personally about the similarity of the emigration flights to Oz from Brnik airport as being the modern equivalent of our eighteenth-century "convict ships". As he remarked to me light-heartedly: "we used to deport then to Kosovo. Now we deport them to Australia. It is good, because it is so much farther away".

So what are you trying to tell me here? You are certainly not adressing what I wrote to you. All you are doing is trying to make migrants from Slovenia to Australia second class citizens which is very rude and arrogant of you. Do you think that you are better than the people here. Such a snob.

Now your British ambassador to Slovenia and his sidekick are full of great information like this. Do you usually belittle people and think that you are better people than them?

One question for you. Who are they? You know the people Slovenia is deporting to Australia? Are they second class Slovenians or are they Bosnians, Croats and all others you say are not genuine Slovenians here?

Please explain that to me.

Oh yes, you seem like a first class human being. All intelligent people have to belittle others to feel good about themselves.

Peggy - my sources are the British Ambassador to Slovenia (and his secretary who handled all the Interior Ministry papers), also the Slovene Minister of the Interior (who remarked to me personally about the similarity of the emigration flights to Oz from Brnik airport as being the modern equivalent of our eighteenth-century "convict ships". As he remarked to me light-heartedly: "we used to deport then to Kosovo. Now we deport them to Australia. It is good, because it is so much farther away".

Is this good enough for you ?

Epaminondas here is a line that you wrote,

"Fifthly and finally, the "Slovenes" you meet emigrating to Oz are not genuine Slovenes at all. They are the refugees from Bosnia, Croatia, and even Serbia"

How the hell would you know who emigrated to Australia? Do you live here? Are you that arrogant to now tell us, the people who have lived here for decades, who is from where?

My brother in law is Slovenian and he came directly from Slovenia. Here is one Slovenian for you. There are [...]

Read the full comment a lot more of them here. Slovenians have their clubs here as well.

Geeezzz, you think you know everything don't you.
This song really applies to you and it's goes like this.

Oh lord it's hard to be humble, when you're perfect in every way. etc.etc.etc.

You must be God for you know everything. Even when you don't know the first thing about what is happening here but presume to correct people anyway.

George - you are still at it, only listening/reading to what you want to read, which makes your viewpoint very one-sided.

Firstly, I can find no record in the Western press of ex-Dutch peacekeepers testifying in favour of Karadzic. Can you please post a link giving firm evidence of this ? As I last understood it, the Dutch government intends to make its own representations at the ICJ against the Serbs, trying to make up for the lamentable performance of their peacekeeping troops at Srebrenice.

Secondly, which "market square air attack by [...]

Read the full comment Serbs" are you talking about ? There was one carried out by the JNA air force on the main food market in Zagreb back in 1992, where housewives had to shelter beneath market stalls in order to avoid the cannon shells (an event well remembered by Slovene visitors too). Is this it ?

Thirdly, Karadzic is hardly a folk-hero in the West, including Poland. I posted below about his deplorable behaviour in the Warsaw Hotel Europejski, so I do not need to repeat it.

Fourthly, everybody seems very quiet these days about the "war criminal protection zone" around Pale, but what IS happening ? Mladic is still loose; clearly the Vojsko Srpskie is either unwilling or unable to capture him. Not a good message to send to the international community, or one to raise Serbia's (frankly low) status.

Fifthly and finally, the "Slovenes" you meet emigrating to Oz are not genuine Slovenes at all. They are the refugees from Bosnia, Croatia, and even Serbia admitted into Slovenia in 1992-97 as part of a humanitarian excercise, who were given Slovene nationality as their own ID cards had been torn up by Serb frontier guards as a condition of allowing them to leave. (This also applied to their cars too: I can well remember seeing refugee cars - normally old Zastavas and Fiats - being driven around Ljubljana with no number plates at all, as the Serb guards had confiscated the plates concerned when the cars left "former Jugoslavija". The Slovenes tolerated this, though the cars concerned could not leave Slovenia and were not insured. One learned to drive in Ljubljana very carefully !

Finally, healthcare still IS free in Slovenia. I used the old UK/Yugoslav reciprocal health system only last year (still in force in Slovenia) and healthcare for UK nationals and Slovenes alike is free. Drugs (on prescription) are not free, but cost a very modest amount (typically 2 euros), the same as in the UK again.

Just saying how it is...it's a reality...the west are ones in a dreamworld of globalisation. These are issues that need to be addressed.

Peggy you should get married with george and live in the fantazy ..cuz you guys are dream couple ...i mean nationalismus in the heart ..
For this guy that you are talking MARTI he got the nobel price did you know that ...no no i dont think so for you is just west propaganda hahahahhahahaha ..Peggy did you take your pills ...dont forget please ..

Yes...thats the point...Serbs will never forget the crimes of the West...
Some 15 Dutch soldiers of the former Netherlands battalion stationed in Srebrenica during the Bosnian civil war are offering to testify in the Hague tribunal on behalf of DR. Karadzic. And they want to rally more soldiers to testify on his behalf, there is a lot of UN peacekeepers from around the world who have a lot to say but were gagged by theregovernments.
It would not go inline with the west and their mainstream media to portray the Serb's as monsters conducting ethnic cleansing [...]

Read the full comment and genocide, media had painted the stereotype Serb "THUG(GISH)" that needed to be stopped in order to justify their war. Yeah...REMEMBER
the market square bombimg by Serbs that justified the air strikes, oh well...it was the muslims after all but that's in the past now...time to move on and look forward to the New Soviet Empire.
“In Srebrenica at the time we had to protect ourselves from the Bosnian Muslims, rather than protect the Muslims from the Serbs” "They stressed that the Serbs did not commit war crimes against the Muslim civilians when they were passing through several dozen of their villages [in Srebrenica municipality] the Dutch soldiers were securing." Dutch UNPROFOR troops testified that Serb Army treated Muslim civilians in an entirely correct manner.
Bosnian Serb army fought against Naser Oric and his muslim fighters who were massacring Serb civilians in the most genocidal ways. These muslim forces were launching attacks from the UN safe haven and the Serbs were out to get this cutthroat warlord and his forces.
2,000 Bosnian Muslim fighters were killed in battle for Srebrenica and that is the number of bodies Hague investigators were able to find. Most of the so called muslim's who are claimed to have been killed died prior 1995, went abroad or a still alive. Why is Serbia's request for a sensus to be done in Bosnia always denied, I'm mean really why don't they do a sensus. Serb Vidoje Blagojević, convicted to a long prison term even though he had no connection to Srebrenica events, while “the mass murderer Naser Orić was acquitted of all responsibility
for killing the Serbs. Why would any rational Serb want to forget, there is so much more that needs to be REMEMBERED!!!
As for the Slovenians, I've met many and continue to meet new arrivals here in Australia even
now that Slovenia is comfortabley in the EU. They are the ones who have given me more of a grim
idea of being in the EU. And many say how good it used to be in Yugoslavia...the most successful
socialistic economy...guaranteed job...free health care...and they still look to me as a brother.
But I guess everyones different....

George - I think you rather make MM's point: there is nothing so long as a Balkan memory !

Two brief points in response to your lengthy contribution:

(a) << Why are so many UN peace keepers willing to testify for Karadzic's behalf on this matter ? >>

How many exactly ? When I encountered Karadzic and his band of thuggish followers in the Hotel Europejski in 1996, the Polish government wanted nothing to do with them. Also they frightened hotel staff and guests alike by firing machine-guns [...]

Read the full comment into the ceiling, which goes against the Western definition of Good Manners. Civilised folk, the Serbs.

(b) I am suprised you met so many unhappy Slovenes. Most Slovenes I have met are very happy (1) to be members of the EU, and (2) to have cut their ties with Serbia for ever.

Some of us remember Srebrenice and Vukovar. Ku pamieci !

There is no need to mention Vojvodina, Serbs are the majority, it's Serb territory!!!
Serbs make the best neighbours, so say my croat, macedonian, turk and aussie neighbours.

Life always moves on, but history is never forgotten. Serbs will never forget what is rightfull theirs. Serbs have been systematically ethnically cleansed from Kosovo for over a century. It's been the globalist agenda to proclaim Serbs as aggressors during the 90s. It was an insult for Serbs to live under so called croatia, those so called borders was drawn for them by hitler during WW2. While cro nazi ustashi were conducting mass genocide and ethnic cleansing under the blessings of the vatican. Even the Germans and Italians were disgusted with the croatians enthusiasm for Serb blood earning them the [...]

Read the full comment title of worst murderers in the world. Is it any wonder that the Serbs living in so called croatia took to arms to defend their villages against the same nazi agenda that rebirthed itself 50 years later. There so called flag is a product from nazi croatia. Srebanica has many questions, there are thousands of Serbs missing from villages around Srebanica. Why are so many UN peace keepers willing to testify for Karadzic's behalf on this matter. Indeed the truth will come out soon, I look forward to it. Kosovo had only one interest according to the west. That it's the most concentrated mineral depositary in europe, and the pipeline will pass through there. Funny when I first read about the pipeline in 1998 when the west were beginning to beat the war drums about Kosovo. The analysis was that eventually countries like Afghanistan, Iraq and Iran would needed to be attacked to secure the venture for this energy pipeline. And they are now beginning to beat the drums for Iran. Kosovo should never be recognised by Serbia, if that will interfere with Serbia's progress into the EU then GREAT!!!! Thanks to the unfortunate Yes vote from Ireland the Lisbon Treaty(revised EU constitution) literally means the End of Nations. The new soviet union, no democratic system there with the power given to the people of europe to determine their lives. Only officials appointing themselves into positions of power. Why have I been meeting so many Slovenians recently who have left their country due to their so called "happy now" situation. No jobs, no money, and no say with their small voting power in the EU. EU is destined to crumble as the Tower of Babel crumbled thousands of years ago. And it will start in America with the collapse of their economy, leading to global war.

Kosovo is Serbia FOREVER!!!!!!!!!

After reading these comments I understand why there was a war in Balkan. And I see lesson was not learnt.

Sorry Arkan, but life moves on. And it has certainly moved on since 1389, when the Holy Roman Empire ruled most of Central Europe and the Jagellionian Polish / Lithuanian dynasty ruled most of Eastern Europe. You can't really apply the territorial rules of 1389 to 2009, I'm afraid.

Kosovo is Serbia. 1389

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This comment has been hidden by the moderator because it contained авторски права.

Trinity - point taken, especially about Slovenia. Ljubljana is now very happy to be where it now is, namely a member of the EU and in the EuroZone. Its subservience to Belgrade is now but a fading memory. Zagreb hopefully will eventually follow the same path.

But it will take much longer to sort out the three Entities in BiH, who do not even now seem to be able to work together towards one common end.

Kosovo, in contrast, like MonteNegro / Crna Gora and also Makedonija, will probably sort itself out [...]

Read the full comment relatively quickly.

(By the way, nobody has yet mentioned Vojevodina, where there are still some unresolved issues between Serbs and Hungarians even now. Say what you like about the Serbs, they don't make good neighbours.)

Epaminondas

The big diference with the Spanish Civil War and Yogo wars, is the point that both Sides in Spain wanted Madrid

Slo Cro Bos and Kos, never had the intention to get Belgrade, and still dont.

So obviously much less killing compared to the agressor serbs who had to drive deep in somebody elses territory to achive their objectives.

Belgrade wanted all including Lubljana too.

Jon Mills speaks a lot of sense; also I sense that he may have been personally a member of one of the international peace-keeping forces in Kosovo, as he seems to speak from first-hand experience.

In internal struggles of this sort, each side is normally just as bad as the other, but one side manages to be just that little bit worse. In the Spanish Civil War it was the Nationalists who achieved international notoriety with the Guernica massacre (though the Republicans were no band of saints), and in Kosovo it seems to be the Serbian [...]

Read the full comment side who specialise in killing non-combatants, though the Albanians have their own brand of nastiness too. This Serbian killing of non-combatants is curiously a feature of the Vukovar and Srebrenica civilian massacres too, so there does seem to be a bit of a trend here (whether it is "statistically significant" I cannot yet judge.)

I hope Jon Mills agrees more or less with my analysis; I doubt anybody else on this thread will do so !

As somebody who was in Serbia and Kossovo during the conflict, I can say from absolute personal experience that attrocities were carried out by each side. I can aslo say quite accurately that I never before saw so much ignorance and baseless fear of the other side between combatants.

The only negative point I noted with regard Serbians, was that they genuinely believed it was their 'military duty' to erradicate the opposition - even down to women and children.

Personally I believe it is pointless to force a large geographic group into [...]

Read the full comment remaining linked to any nation that does not want them, and perhaps despises them. It is arguable as to whether the Kossovan population were running towards Albanian protection, or being forced by warfare that way.

The UK has had similar problems in its hitory, and have settled most of these with a simple policy: "The people and territory of any part may remain within the Uk or its dependancies until and unless they decide democratically to leave - the UK will not stand in their way".

Perhaps I am being too hopefull.

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Trinity, I was commenting on what you wrote not Athisaari.

Read what you wrote again and then tell me that something which spews this sort of hate is normal.

"Trinity, are you feeling OK?"
yes thank you

"Your sound positively demented."

Whats with the personal insult?

This is the Ahtisaari article, anything to say?

Trinity, are you feeling OK?
Your sound positively demented.

its amasing how the serbs agreed to him in the first place ahtisari, the security council gave the go ahead, serbia obviously lost the case, as any genecidal nation in the world would.

Now they complain about the judge.... hahaha
Yeah like they would give hitler an apeal!
The balkans is not russia mate, agressors are punished. If you people want to play by denial agressive and some sort of "super people" go vome to where you came from, im sure as serbs you wont survive next to your big brothers.
[...]

Read the full comment /> You would kill each other faster than russia recognised 60 thousand people in 2 "countrys" of georgia.

You will complain about the ICJ verdict too, so stop wasing your breath here, keep some redical hate for that one, otherwise you wouldnt be the real "victim" serbs.

After the kosovo independence you killed your own, burned borderposts and many many embassys.

After ICJ, what is there left to burn or kill?
Kill Tadic? You already killed Didjic!
Burn more embassys? haha no no, you burned the Canadian embassy before they even recognised. And they recognised kosovo very quickly after.
Burn the UNDP in belgrade??? Propobly, but i think the firs thing you will burn will be the kosovo embassy in belgrade.
Obviously serbs will die again by their own, just to keep the "victim" face with their crocodile tears.

Albania was successful in extricating Kosovo from Serbia because its Nazi collaborators were established in Washington immediately after WW2 and were able to influence US foreign policy.

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Operation VALUABLE was sponsored and then betrayed by Philby, by his own confession. The plan was to overthrow the Soviets' puppet government in Albania. The airlift of anti-Communist guerrillas by U.S. and British aircraft resulted in the capture of the Albanian patriots. But it was only in June 1982 that declassified State Department documents disclosed another part of Soviet scheming – the unrecorded movement into the [...]

Read the full comment United States of Albanians who had collaborated with the Nazis, but among whom were infiltrated Soviet agents professing 'anti-Communist' fervor. Philby's 'Free Albanians' had a voice in American policy, according to the now-declassified account of a meeting between Secretary of State Don Acheson and British Foreign Minister Ernest Bevin. Acheson says: 'Bevin asked if we would basically agree that we try to bring down the Hoxha (Communist) government....I said yes, but if this were precipitated now, the Greeks and Yugoslavs might touch off serious trouble...[Bevin] asked, “What government would replace Hoxha? Are there any kings around that could be put in?”'



Intrepid's Last Case, William Stevenson, Michael Joseph, London, 1984

Kosovols wrote this,

"Serbs are brainwashed idiots that only understand one thing-force. Only when they are shown that their agression towards women and children is unacceptable through the use of force in self-defense do the Serbs know to back off. The Serbs are willing to kill and rape women and children and to commit genocide as long as they're not prevented from doing it by force. Serbs are animals."

You should change the last sentence to Albanians are animals, because all you wrote describes your lot and worse.
Jut add [...]

Read the full comment organ harvesting ghouls to it.

Serbs are brainwashed idiots that only understand one thing-force. Only when they are shown that their agression towards women and children is unacceptable through the use of force in self-defense do the Serbs know to back off. The Serbs are willing to kill and rape women and children and to commit genocide as long as they're not prevented from doing it by force. Serbs are animals.

Branimir Maksimovic, Happy waiting mate :) You should order some Kosovo nuts to munch on while you wait for whatever you think will happen in your dream world.

We are so pround we have our own country back now, we suferd enough under Serbian regime for the past 100 years and more so in the last 20 years. Serbs killed thousands of people including children and elderly in the Balkans and here they come and try to portrait Serbs like " Angels " with rediculious comments like "Peggy" and "Ron", but thank God and of course America there propaganda is not selling anymore. Most Serbs brainwashed people I would say.

The serbian government did not ask for a non-binding decision, that was an agreed between all nations at the UN, because if you were not aware, many of the nations which accept Kosovos independance also supported Serbia's request, if they did not they would be going against there own democratic values which many of them were involved in when the UN was formed.
With time my prophecies will come into practice and become reality, i hope the albanian people of kosovo have enjoyed there So called independance which really was ruled by a external army and governed by [...]

Read the full comment politics and politicians from outside Kosovo. We see a protocal being signed, two more taking place. Co-operation between Eulex and Serbia, which through time will expand, and under resolution 1244 serbia is entitled to the return of its police to secure the safety of its people and Monasteries and Churches. Enjoy the time you have left, it will not last for ever, what will last forever is the fact that everything around you is changing. Look back at 2000, then 2003, then 2004, 2005 2007 2008 2009, every year we have changes regarding the Government in Pristina, the international community, the EU , comments made by members of the UN who have recognised Independance, and many more factors. Enough on that subject i could type all day, and reply to all your comments, but at the end of the day unfortunatly your minds have been brainwashed and what is in them cannot change. But, thats your problem not mine.

As for the convicted people in the hague tribunal, if you dare look at the statistics Serbs have been convicted of all possible crimes, from genocide to ethnic cleansing to torture rape. But only Serbs. Time will come when all others are convicted, Serbia has handed over all except two of the wanted So called criminals, and if they catch them that will mean Serbia has fully cooperated with the court,and set a standard, were as 0n the other hand no other Government involved in the war has claimed responsibility for there involvment. Serbia did so on its own behalf, while pressure has been put on quietly, with out the attraction of the media on the Albanian(which refuse to cooperate with Eulex) Croatia(who have punished no one for there part in the ethnic cleansing of an entire area) Bosnia(which to date will not conduct a Census) where as Serbia has convicted more serbs in serbia in its own court then all others mentioned together. We set a standard and we stand up for our mistakes made in the past, but we move forward. The same unfortunatly cannot be said about the rest, which will eventually catch up, and when it does the punishment may not be the same as a 3 month bombing campain on Serbia, but will last for years to come.

Its one thing to accept responsibility for these crimes and another to leave it to the side and deny.There are many things the bordering New nations have not learned about controlling, ruling and governing a country. It is not something you pick up over night, its something you build on for many years, centuries. Serbia has done so, Serbia will continue to do so, Serbia has suffered, too much , but still it wishes to move forward, hold major events, sporting to political. Recognised as a security factor in the region, major player in the balkans, respected in all fields by the international community, from The muslim, Catholic, Orthodox, Hindu, Buddist and Communist communities. These are facts representing a nation, a proud nation, full of minorities living side by side, in peace. Belgrade is full of albanians croats bosniaks macedonians, the same cannot once again be said about Zagreb Sarajevo Tirane SKoplje.

Many of you rely on your patriotism to get you from A-B, which it will, but in the world we live in we must get from A-Z, respect and keep in mind the interests of many things, people, communities, business and many many many many more things. Those are just the fundimental things which a nation must have to succed. Sometimes its not enough to cry infront of a TV so the world media can show the World audience whats happening. Those things are just SNAP SHOTS, The greater picture starts to appear when more SNAP SHOTS are taken and joined to form a film which forms a movie which evolves into the truth. Wait and see, I AM.!!!!

"The decesion by the court will be non binding",

I wounder why the serbs asked for a non biding solution? Afraid they might loose if they asked for a binding solution. It shows they have no confidence in themselves. Wats next? when They loose in the court , then serbs will start acusing the world courts decision as politically motivated, just as they did at hauge sentences for the serbian war criminals.

Albania the only country in the world that borders itself, but the past mistakes of the great powers of europe [...]

Read the full comment are now realizing , Albanians have a voice now not like before when they chopped up lands at serbian and greek request
for themselves at the albanian expense without care if it was albanian majority lands.

They have to realize the battle is lost and move on and stop living in the past, and they have
the nerve to call serbian land on Ilirian soil how ironic!

Long live Shqiperia!

Albania will be one of the biggest and most populated countries in the Balkans.

Also the Albanian populated parts of Serbia by Presevo valley should become part of Albania.

Also the Albanian populated parts of Greece should also become part of Albania.

This comment has been removed by the moderator because it contained не е по темата на статията

Let Serbia have the tiny northern part of Kosovo and give the rest to Albania so that Serbia and Albania share a peaceful common border with each other and can both enter the EU.

KOSOVO IS ALBANIA !!!

Branimir Maksimovic, on the first comment i took you seriously but the second one is a proper joke. These guys are in they Hague for the crimes they have committed against humanity and not for their heroics They were found guilty by a court not mate up by Albanians, Croats, Slovens or Bosniaks but people from countries all over the world. But of course on your eyes every decision against you is bias and a conspiracy against you no matter who makes that decision!

Unlike you, I do not call myself a prophet to prophecies what [...]

Read the full comment will happen in 1000 years but i look at the past and the facts presented in front of me and make my judgment. The facts show that a wrong from the past has now been put right. Kosovo is now free from they tyrant and can be where it belongs, with its own blood. Kosovo has always been ALBANIA and will now be for all the world to see.

KOSOVO JE ALBANIA/ KOSOVO IS ALBANIA/KOSOV JE SHQIPERI

The people of USA today only migrated there from the 15th century onwards, so we wont even dare mention these patheic little statements.! Evidence, is the fact till this day not one group of people on the balkans has lost more lives in the past 200 years then the Serbian people, infact double(it has evidence) more then all other peoples on the balkans together. The hague has prosecuted these Serbs you choose to mention because of its political standing and support for the interests many nations had in the balkans. I will not waste my words/breath/time stating all and i [...]

Read the full comment mean all the names on the sides of the croats , bosniaks and albanian communities which to this day walk freely after EVIDENCE that proves all were directly or indirectly involved in the genocide, mass killings and ethnic cleansing of the Serbian people. Ive stated before, on other topics, Serbs as European people in Europe have the largest number of displaced persons who were forcefully moved from there homes and to this day cannot return. The hague tribunal has sentenced more Serbs from Croatia Bosnia and Serbia under the longest serving periods for any individual or group, even more then The albanian croats and bosniaks combined which only goes to show seing as the number of deaths on all sides do not add to that of the serbian side that such tribunals and courts are biased and only based upon the political position those courts are used for. It took the Jews to return to there homeland over a thousand years, it took Serbs to return to the Homeland 500 years, today the process because we do live in a modern world full of technology which brings all peoples worldwide together, even quicker. With time all these commments posted will be worthless, the ones that will count, will the ones stating the truth and only the truth. Mind you all individuals who did commit awfull crimes against humanity should be punished, but all individuals, this will happen, eventually a greater picture will be formed and the outcome will be different to what many of your minds can see, only because you cant see far ahead, you see whats infront of you, what that 2 min news update tells you, what your government forwards to its citizens. But, when the situation unfolds, and all factors are taken into consideration and the ones who were blinded are given the chance to see again, and the ones that were silenced are given the chance to speak again, The entire situation will be different. Kosovo is Serbian, Catalonia is Spanish, Jerusalim is Jewish, Australia is the home of Aborigines, Africa to the lions and its native people, Americas to its native People, Paris is french, Vatican is Italian, Athens is Greek, The pyramids are Egyptian and many more. These things simply cannot change, it is one thing to disagree with these facts but another to dismiss these same facts. KOSOVO JE SRBIJA, KOSOVO IS SERBIAN.!

This comment has been hidden by the moderator because it contained квалификации.

I see most of you guys have not moved away from the same boring issue of denying Kosovars Albanians the deserved freedom to live apart from Serbs.
Its done already. How thick of the skull does it take not to understand it???

Al the the rest of his ignorant brothers still belive in Illyrian myth.
Those people are long gone. Albanians don't have anything and that's why they have to steal Serbian land and history.

You talk of all this genocide crap when we all know that it is not true. It is all western propaganda. Intelligent people know how western propaganda works and how they demonise certain countries and people in order to win sympathy from their own citizens and then go in and fight against them.

Camp Bondsteel is the [...]

Read the full comment reason why Albanians were backed up and Serbs demonised. It's not rocket science but the Albanians still cling onto the propaganda because the truth doesn't serve their purpose.

People are getting more educated every day. They don't buy your crap any longer. Well, not most people and they don't agree with their corrupt governments either.
If you think that you can still spew the dame propaganda and get away with it like you did in 1999 you are sadly mistaken.

Mal,
we will meet in Kosovo or in USA
watch your back.

Whole region rather*

Mate its Malcia in Montenegro you idiot, just added Presevo after and didn't move the brackets as well. Who is trying to tell me the geography hahah what a joke, you think the hole region belongs to you and you only emigrated there in the 7th century.

Branimir Maksimovic you ask for evidence, plenty of it mate! but I am not going into too much here, just a scratch on the surfice. Milosevic ex president of Yugoslavia(died like a dog in Hague) Karadsic ex president of Republica Sparska(will rotten in Hague) Nikola Sainovic, Yugoslav Army General, Nebojsa Pavkovic, Serbian police General Sreten Lukic, Yugoslav Army General, Vladimir Lazarevic and Chief of the General Staff, Dragoljub Ojdanic (all rotting in prison cells in hague) Mladic (hiding in holes like a rat and once caught will rotten in Hague) And there is plenty more but you should seek it [...]

Read the full comment yourself.

Al , so you dont waste your time in reading the geographical books given to you where you live, Presevo is in southern Serbia, not Montenegro! Dont waste your brain, you may need it for your day job or in bringing your children up and taking care of your responsibilities, instead of using up that small part you posses in making false comments and reading out from the History and Geography books the Pristina government is providing your kind :-)

I think they should not be allowed in the EU either way, they all have innocent blood on their hands, bunch of criminals they are. Besides, they would want to rule Europe, because they will think its ex Yugoslavia. They forget that Europe had enough of there silliness and doesn't give a monkey's ass about them. They just keep kidding themselves, hypocrites!

Where are those 1 million displaced? Where is the evidence of massacres upon the civilians who were not in uniform under the KLA? The facts many of you use are completely false, used either from propaganda material or just simply misinformed about the true picture of the situation on the ground. Words should not be wasted for pathetic comments. In time, in good time, the picture will appear differently. Unfortunatly not in the eyes of many people who have already heard one side and only one side, which was sponsored by the wealth of the western media used as the [...]

Read the full comment biggest weapon known to mankind, even worse the the nuclear bomb. Reason being, the bomb destroys the lives of everyone within its grasp, where as the media explodes among the living and stays while there alive. Its sad , the whole story of a Republic of Kosovo, history is repeating itself. The protocal between Serbia and Eulex is expanding in 2 more fields, same as in 1906-7-8. The turks where the then agresors who eventually had the responsibilty of guarding the monasteries and churches and the serbian people, today we see Nato taking the role, first being the aggresors then the guardians of the same monuments and people. Back then it finished with a Kosovo within the borders of Serbia, it will also finish that way this time. Wether it takes 5 years or 10. It will happen! Kosovo is Serbian, morally Highly morally, legally, constitutionly. If majority rules then in that case aswell, keeping in mind that we live on the same earth and the majority do not recognise the Self proclamation of Independance by the TEMPORARY government in Pristina. Also the majority in Serbia dissagrees, because by The UN resolution 1244 which was accepted by all sides in 1999 clearly states Serbia has the right of Soverienty over Kosovo and Metohija. How ever you look at the greater picture, Kosovo will always be part of Serbia.

Because none of these regions don't have a mother nation, whereas Kosova has a mother Nation called ALBANIA :) The same brothers and sisters cannot live in five different countries, they must be one for ever. Long live Kosova, Albania, Cameria, Malecia, Presevo (Montenegro) and Western Macedonia as one united people.

If there is no solution Serbia should send there Police back in Kosovo and sort the mess out forcefully.

that's right no EU entry till they take responsibility of their wrong doings. Serbs killed 12'000 Albanians, displaced 1'000'000 Albanians from their homes, raped and killed women and children.. why have they not been punished???

Marty is right, the EU should say no entry before recognition and admitting of genocide to the Kosovo Albanians.

... because Serbs started going in a killing spree in Kosovo, creating mass graves, and exterminating villages. You can tell not only from ground evidence, but also from the garbage posted in forums by the majority of Serbians that they hate Albanians. The Tibetans are not being massacred daily, nor are the Kurd (nothing on the news about them today). The right of life and liberty is a universal moral value that withholds above conventional laws, but of course this can not be understood from people that operate on Level I of moral development. Once you reach a higher level, [...]

Read the full comment you understand that some moral absolutes withstand, majority rules, and go against conventional society laws.

In mean time, keep screaming. I usually don't have the nerve to deal with such low level crap, but when news gets eye catching, i cant resist but respond. Go ahead an insult me :).

Mal (Albanian in U.S.A, a reason for you guys to hate me more :) )

Who gave him the idea we still want to join EU? Ten years ago we thought EU was the place to be if you look for justice and freedom, but what they did with Kosovo changed everything. Now we can see that EU is just another money hungry beast which imposes its own injustice with brute force and no compassion whatsoever. Keep your EU for yourself and give us our Kosovo back, you dirty thiefs!

Disgusting. I don't believe that Serbia should join that garbage group known as the EU anyhow. This Marti fellow is part of the problem in Europe. Once again he insists on destabilizing this region with outrageous remarks. Countries need to look no farther than their own borders. Would you accept such terms to be imposed on your country for the same problem?

Ron you ask: Can anyone actually ask this person why Kosovo but not Kurdistan? And not Tibet? And not Serbs in Bosnia? And not Croats in Bosnia? Darfur? Ossetia? South Tirol?

-------- and i say ---
All of the regions you mention including Vojvodina/Serbia should be discussed and resolved ... people suffer under the oppression of the others and are never given the right to self determination and peaceful living. Kosovo is solved and UN should work on other issues ... it has become such a joke of an organization.

Why is this man still around?
His plan was filed in the garbage bin, yet he still makes noise.

I suppose he is afraid that the Albanians will ask for their money back.

Serbia as a recognised state of the UN, which it is a member of and where Resolution 1244 was put into place in 1999 and agreed by all sides, is the only legal document/resolution stating Serbia's right to soverienty over the land of Kosovo and Metohija. By stating this , Kosovo which proclaimed independance did so illegally, which should be proven at the upcoming court case were Serbia won over the majority of nations at the UN to ask wether the Self proclamation of independance by the temporary government in Pristina is legal or not under the laws of the [...]

Read the full comment UN. The decesion by the court will be non binding, but will have consequences on the outcome of many simular situations around the world if the decision is opposite to the true decision awaiting us. Serbia should never be blackmailed or simply asked to recognise Kosovos independance. It has to the right to fight for its land , without force which it has stated many times, but by the use of all democratic methods stated by the UN and supported by all western nations. Serbia initially was defending its own land by rebels who took up and armed offensive against the nation they lived in, which in itself is a crime, and against all documents, charters and resolutions which were brought by the UN and its 192 members. It has been 10 years since the conflict ended. The conflict has left over 200000 serbian refugees permenantly displaced outside there home in Kosovo, and brought another 200000 albanians from Macedonia and Albania which forcefully and by violation has created a new demographic picture on these lands. Before anyone dares to ask Serbia to recognise such state all these issues much be answered and brought to the table, which is only a few of many many many many issues simply left to the side. Serbia shall never recognise part of its own land as a Seperate state, The EU or any of its representatives can not ask of Serbia to make such a move, and in the democratic society we all live in today everyone is entitled to there own opinion, As the 22 nations of the EU that did recognise such proclamation of independance and the further 40 odd worlwide, so do the 5 members of the EU which did not and the remaining 130 odd worldwide which do not intend to. There is a simple stalemate. We have numbers vs wealth, interests colliding. The simple answer to any conclusion is the return to a Table where there will be a mutual and respectible decision which will please all sides, not only one.

I really do not understand this person. He tried to reach a deal. Well, he did not. I do not say that that is his fault. Then he expects everyone, including Serbia, to follow his plan. Although Serbia and Russia and China and many other never agreed!
Let's send him to Tibet. He will come up with a plan to make Tibet independent. China will not agree. But hey, the whole world has to recognize Tibet anyway. Will that happen? Double standards? Can anyone actually ask this person why Kosovo but not Kurdistan? And not Tibet? And not [...]

Read the full comment Serbs in Bosnia? And not Croats in Bosnia? Darfur? Ossetia? South Tirol?