This comment has been removed by the moderator because it contained foul, abusive or discriminating language.

I think "Macedonia is Greek since 3000 years" has a very good point. The present tactics of the Athens government could well result in an "own goal", if as a result the territory of fYRoM becomes unstable, a refuge for terrorists, etc.

In the Classical period, which the Athens government always uses as its authority, King Pyrrhus won a victory which turned out to be a defeat: hence the term "Pyrrhic Victory". In modern times, Pakistan has now seen the folly of neglecting its northern neighbour of Afghanistan with its concentration on the quarrel with India (= Greece/ Turkey).

The result - for Pakistan - was the Taliban. What will be the similar result for Greece ?

To me, the greek tactic is awesome. They don't want to find a solution for this problem and they get more profits to let it the question about the name in suspense. So we are still in a statu quo and things will not change. FYROM is and will remain the international use of the name, depending or not the fact 125 countries already recognized FYROM with "Macedonia" as name.
The good thing is FYROM is loosing time and cannot have immediate access to EU and NATO. So that causes a pretty unstable political situation with unexpected consequences for the coming years...

So many Kiro'ss and Zhivko'ss in this world is fanatastic. Its so good to see their own people show them how fraudulent they are. Macedonia belongs to all. Bulgarians, Greeks, Albanians, Turks, Vlachs, and Romas. So what is their problem. Maybe Kiro is Stefov's long lost child who unlike Stefov who has a Bulgarian surname Kiro is a mutation craeted by what Stefov calls Titos Time Machine. Not Bad Ahhh! Don't worry little Kiro your people still like you they just don't like your history..........

Oh dear - somebody is being rude about me again. Please don't mis-spell my name; I can't help being a simple Austrian sheep-farmer with Slovenian friends.

Zhivko you wasted space no-one in Macedonia would eat your crap! Stay in Canada and leave us alone. Give Gruevski one of your fascist salutes when you see him and one up the backside while your at it we hear he likes it from behind. To think that someone would admire that racist doco of the Macedonian Prayer is a shame to all us Macedonians. Its like Hitler telling his people how superior they are. Second thoughts come to Macedonia so we can eta you.....

Gruevski coming to Canada! We are to welcome him like Jesus Christ the protector of all Macedonians. The Macedonian Prayer was the best documentary in the world. Shame on you Sasha! We in Canada learn history from the experts. One day you will see your ancestors again in the movies. I think they are making another movie with Alexander the Great. Gruevski is the best PM we ever had. You are lucky in Macedonia without us you would have no money at all. Maybe I open one of my restaurants in Prilep next year.

Gordana, these people are full of themselves. They have come to believe in their migrant lands that Macedonia has somehow transformed itself from a proud Slavic culture to an ancient mutation. Gruevski is their hero, the fascist who has brought more misery to our country than all previous governments put together. He had the best chance to put us in EU and NATO but refused on geographic reasons and instilled NaZi style propaganda that the Greeks want to change our language, identity, etc. It is these PRASI who keep us in a state of limbo. No Gordana, we should not have to tolerate with these homosexuals (Gruevski and his Lovers) who want to dress in ancient skirts and show ther worlg that the biggest Homo of all Al. Veliki is somehow our ancestor. Even Kuzman makes jokes of them at every meeting he has with foreign scholars and he is our official Archaeologist. Gordana I'll send some contact details then we can meet in Bitola and discuss this further, maybe create our own Liberate Macedonia from MORONS party. The pre-1910 IMRO would have died a 100 deaths if they seen that their name was together with all their effort, blood and tears hijacked by the very people who's ideology they were originaly fighting against(the fascists). Long Live the Memory of the original IMRO........

Aede Kiro! your own people show how your rhetoric has many holes. Maybe you should come to Bulgaria we are looking for people like you who are good ancient historians. One day you will remember that your bulgarian dialect is actually Slavic not Greek!!!

My last post here - http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=auto&tl=mk&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.anameisaname.com%2F

See you in EU in few years.

Bravo Sasha tell these idiots who think they know everything to wake up. Me and my sisters are from Bitola and its the same rubbish here. All these rich diaspora relations come thinking they know more than us about our own history. As the young and especially Macedonian girls we think our time has come for emancipation to resurrect the truth. Out with the fascists and their diaspora filth and in with the young. I'm not sure about one thing Sasha if Kiro thinks our history is ancient why does he come back to our land all the time has he got some kind of homesickness or is he a MORON from probably Canada thats where they usually live but the worst are the Australia family. This people must brainwash themselves everyday and night to come here and talk about our home like some paradise when we are all here without work or any future. What parasites sucking the very blood from our veins while they all live luxury. The girls are here Sasha, we understand your thinking, to build bridges and not sabotage them like the Fascists and PIGS who live in the Diaspora....

Sasha is quite right - those of us with names which are prone to embarrassing mis-spelling rather like to have our names spelled correctly !

OHH, forgot to mention Kiro. To judge my Macedonian identity based on a spelling mistake is the type of euphoric paranoia you people live in. Our identity is here to stay my IDIOT from diaspora who think they can place more value on our Macedonian identity by adding on baseless assertions. No Kiro or is it properly Kiril, your diaspora Macedonians have done more than enough. Read the biggest Idiot of your kind Stefov. If he cuts and pastes any more he might fall of the side of the computer lab then what you diaspora IDIOTS will be headless. Leave us in Macedonia to work through the issues and build bridges without contempt. I thought originally you had a clear head on your shoulders but once again we are disappointed to find another fascist clothed in hyperbolic regurgitations of a variety of facts to lure people into a classroom of fabricated history lessons. The YOUTH of MACEDONIA have learnt a lot of tricks in the last decade. One of them is that the diaspora have betrayed us big time and the second is we need to find the someone to lead us who doesn't need historical crap to show the world who we are. We know who we are and that is Macedonians who live in the Balkans and don't need ancient roots to be any more proud than we already are. So Kiro to be Macedonian means to be Macedonian not an IDIOT who bases someones integrity on a spelling mistake of a fascists..................

Kiril we don't need more "IDIOTS" like you we need less. Your problem is that you are probably from our diaspora peddling this ancient Identity crap to all the thousands of naive octogenerians in our country. One thing is for sure you don't represent the youth of Macedonia and especially those who are looking to the future. You belong with your fascist morons licking each others behinds telling each other that we are the glorious descendants of Al.Veliki and co. Wake up you idiot! Just because you find ancient Macedonian sites on our territory doesn't mean we are descendants of them. You must be a 60s-70-s educated drop-out when this crap was first raised that there was a ancient (CRAP) connection. These idiots who are runnung our country now were born into that mindframe and have known nothing other than fantasing themselves in skirts holding shields with the pathetic BS star on it. YOu are definitely from a diaspora background or at the very least one of those IDIOTS in Skopje who have their sights on these 10 mil. Euro embarrasments to go around the world telling everyone how great we are. In Prilep as in many other big towns in Macedonia we are finally realising the type of people you are. You do not represent us, the Macedonian youth and you are wrong to think that our Slavic heritage is negotiable to a BS, Fabricated, Diasporic fantasy ancient one. We are proud Macedonians and as Slavs are prouder for who we are. Not these Al.VELIKI MORONS...... YOu think to want a secure future like to study and a job is all about money but in the end security comes from reality not fantasy. We have nearly 43% unemployment how do you put that in perspective when you have these Homosexuals running our country spending the hard earned Taxes on illussions of greatness while their people don't know how they will make it from one day to the next. And By the way you IDIOT (You have a good Slavic name) just because the youth speak out against your distorted views on regional history you don't have to call us Greeks. We know that this is the easist way for your amputated lot to abuse us but believe me that did hurt when we were kids but now in our late teens it actually makes us laugh. We are opposed to your IDIOT, nationalistic lot. We will prevail "MACEDONIAN YOUTH". So yes a North is better than a nothing but bull crap you fascists peddle. Our Macedonian Identity will never be undermined neither from the enemy within (YOU IDIOTS) or from the enemy without!!!!!

EPAMINONDAS
Pax A time of wide-ranging stability when there is only a single dominant power.
PAX ROMANA
PAX BYZANTICA
PAX BRITANICA REFERRING TO
B.E QUEEN VICTORIA ERA
PAX AMERICANA(NOWADAYS)
BUT NEVER BOTH
About the dictum of Napoleon
quite correct il parlasse
subjunctif passe troisieme personne singulier.

Sorry, Aries - two corrections:

(1) the use of full stops/ "periods"(US) in acronyms (as in "S.P.Q.R." , as the Romans did) is now no longer current usage or UN-approved . But the old Roman acronym for Britain would have been P.B.R. (Pax Brittannicum Romanorum).

(2) I got the Romanian a bit wrong - the word should be "populorului" for 'of the peoples'. The body I attended last year in Chisinau was called "Forumul National Al Agribusiness-ului Din Moldova", which (as any fule kno) means "The National Forum of the Agribusiness of Moldova ") No, I don't know why it isn't "Moldova-ului" either !

Maybe Napoleon had the right idea - we should all speak French: il fallait que tout le monde parlasse le francais.

(I now claim the prize for hopefully correct use of the French imperfect subjunctive !)

VELKOWSKI.
SASHA IS NOT OBSESSED BY MONEY
SASHA IS ANXIOUS ABOUT "IF HE WILL FIND A GOOD JOB IN HIS COUNTRY AFTER GRADUATING' THAT IS HIS AND MOST YOUNGSTERS'S ANXIETY.
or will he be obligied to ask for bulgarian passport in order to migrate to anotther country.
but your fanatism prevents you from distinguishing the basic
about the Grrek diaspora fanatics they do nothing more but counterbalamcing your diaspora
it's a law of nature pal one of Newton's fundamental law of Mechanics, Action and Reaction.
forces act and react equally but in opposite directions on the same axis .
Cheers.

No problem, Aries, Britain used to be 'pax britannica' under S.P.Q.R (senatus populusque romanorum), and no, this doesn't fit the current acronymic rules. But it is two thousand years old, so maybe it gets an EU derogation.

(Curiously, modern Romanian is similar: "populi" = peoples, populior = of peoples, populiorui = of the peoples.)

Well, I am a Macedonian from Skopje, and Sasha is nowhere near from Prilep. As he is obsessed by money and financials, he's probably from Athens.
Epaminondas, you started to help people understand the official acronym, and we ended that it is for inside higher circles only :) Good trajectory...
Did anyone saw this: http://taxalia.blogspot.com/2009/08/gruevskis-visit-to-australia-raises.html
Gruevski’s visit to Australia raises alarm
"“Mr Gruevski is known for his extreme and recalcitrant approach to the name dispute issue and this is why it’s hard to imagine that he would come all the way to Australia to sign an agreement under the name FYROM,” the Greek diplomat pointed out."

:) It would be serious defeat for Athens, or a clear sign for hellenic fanatics to accept the reality...

Epaminondas
wITH ALL DUE RESPECTS
CUT THE CRAP THAT GETS HOLD OF YOU FROM TIME TO TIME
YOU PERFECTLY KNOW TO WHAT CRAP
I9 AM REFFERRING TO.
GET A HOLD OF YOURSELF MAN
I COULD STATE THAT BRITAIN IS
F.T.o.R.E
FORMER TERRITORY OF ROMAN EMPIRE
AND YOUR TURKEY AS F.T.O.B.E
FORMER TERRITORY OF BYZANTINE.

VELKOVSKI or whaatever
Your posstings are quite ressembling Ristov's memorable
accounts(hysterics) in the American Chronicles
Are you a resident of FYROM
or are you diaspora your fanatism ,as opposed to Sasha's realism I must admit excelent exxposition of a young person's anxiteies and views,betrays you, gives me the impression that you are sitting and wondering what would have happened in my wishfull thinking and chimaeras were reality.
You are nothing else but remains of a Titoist Regime, remains of
serbian propanganda ,the greatest your idiocy is that most of you, not all,deny you Slav origin (OHRID,PRESLAV,PLISKA,just to name a few , CULTYURE AND TRADITION)
YOU HAVE SERBANIZED YOUR ALPHABET TO LOOK DIFFERENT THAN THE BULGARIAN.

Kiro - I have much sypmathy with your point - acronyms can be puzzling and obscure, especially if somebody else has invented them . But fYRoM does seem to be approved in certain High Quarters internatinally, even so.

Meanwhile, Megas Alexandros (or Aleksander Velikiy to some) - haven't you been reading this site for the past three months ? Never mind about ALAS ALAS MAKEDONIJA - just read to the base of this very same thread to see that Macedonia was a Roman colony - not a Greek one - from 146BC onwards. And it was called "Macedonia Prima" - Aegean Macedonia or the Greek bit - and "Macedonia Saltutaris" - upland / "healthy" Macedonia for the former Jugoslav bit.

So what's new, apart from some faulty history books for children issued in Greece ?

Remember: MOLON LAVE is a brand of Belgian soap, sole in all good Belgian supermarkets like Delhaes or GB.

MAKEDONIA IS AND WILL ALWAYS REMAIN HELLENIC

HELLAS HELLAS MAKEDONIA

All the acronyms that are not made by the country itself (or at least agreed by the country itself) are wrong. So, United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland might like GB and GBR but not UK. Or USA but not USoA. So, Macedonians sometimes use RM (acronym for Republika Makedonija), MK and MKD for sure... That's about it when we speak about our acronyms.

Thanks - un grand merci. The "F.Y.R.O.M" formulation was definitely wrong in international law - there are meant to be no full stops/"periods" within the fYRoM acronym (though the Greeks sometimes try to do this.)

(I am still attracted by "fTpoY" -
former Turkish province of Yunanistan - to describe Greece, even in relatively recent years, but I may lack support !)

I am mentioning the EU12 – in 1992 the EU had 12 members. Now they are considered as core members. Nevertheless, the new countries are different – more than half have no problems with Republic of Macedonia. So, even the situation within EU is not quite good for Athens. BUT, we are not abusing the numerical majority, yet, but we are awaiting the USA brokered solution to be wrapped up.
According to the Interim Accord both sides agreed to facilitate traffic and communication between two Parties. Now, as we have MK and MKD as 2 and 3 letters acronyms for our Country (in ISO), our official car sticker says MK :) So, Serbs asked me to put the sticker on my car (it is according to international traffic laws) and, later, when I entered Greece the Customs officer put a sticker next to it saying "Greece recognizes this country as F.Y.R.O.M." in English and Greek. So my car wasn't vandalized as it happens sometimes in Thessaloniki and Khalkidhiki.
Also, as far as I know, Green card offices in Skopje are quite ignorant about international laws and details of Interim accord, etc. so I noticed that, also, the Green card (international insurance) says FYROM and Republic of Macedonia at once :) And definitely, the sticker is for Greek use only, I don’t need it for any other country. All the other countries are fine with my passport and all the documents using Republic of Macedonia.

Kiro - an afterthought. Technically French is still the 'default' language of international road transport, as in 'TIR' (Transport Internationale Routiere) for long-distance trucks, and the various 'carnets' that vehicles such as caravans and trailers need to acquire, so any sticker should really be "ERYdM" and not "fYRoM". There is a long-standing international convention covering this from the 1920s, so Greece is almost certainly in breach of it. Oh dear....

Kiro - thanks / blagodariu - but I think somewhere you've lost the plot. There are rather more states in the EU now than 12, for example - 27, I believe (though everybody tends to forget Malta !)
And EAR operates in rather more cities than Thessaloniki/Salonika/Solun (now there's a provocative name which I am sure somebody will react to !).

Its head office is in Belgrade/Beograd populated (in my own personal experience) by some pretty unpleasant people who think that what they say in the region is the Word of God. So if they say "fYRoM", we all say "fYRoM" (anyway, you can't omit the 'o' from the acronym, as it's the English Genitive case, like the 'd' in the French acronym EYRdM. )

What's this story about the Greeks putting "FYROM" stickers on visiting Macedonian cars, by the way ? This use of the wrongly-caplitalised acronym could bring Greece into conflict with the UN and EAR, quite apart from the minor legal aspects of sticking unwanted stickers on people's cars.

Sasha, it is not Greek paraphernalia. It is our history. It is our excavations. It is our legacy. We are obliged to present it and give it back to the world. It is not Greek. It might be from Hellenic or East Roman Empire periods or Ottoman or whatever. But it is OUR, Macedonian history. And it is up to our scientists to fight for their thesis that the Slavic tribes did not arrive from behind Ural. It is not for me to fight for that. But, now, for the first time in history, we have our scientist trying to find the truth. Not Sofia, Belgrade, Athens scients. Our scientist. Let them do their job and we’ll get back to them in 10, 15, 30 years. Don’t you forget that the “Hellenic” history was written for like 170 years, since Draysen invented Hellenes… Aryanism is pretty strong in EU, still. BTW, Check my discussion below – there is no FYROM as an acronym (only in Greek’s car stickers when we travel in Greece with MK international country designation).
Again, the history must be separated from the human rights issue. It is up to us to decide about our name. As 7 billion people have the UN Universal Declaration on Human Rights we want those rights too. We, 3 million Macedonians are some “slaves” of the world without the right for self-determination?
http://conventions.coe.int/Treaty/en/Treaties/Html/166.htm is the link for the European Convention on Nationality (Strasbourg, 6.XI.1997). Article 2 also says “# “nationality” means the legal bond between a person and a State and does not indicate the person’s ethnic origin;”.
Therefore – the “harmless” changing the name of the country will indirectly change the nationality. From Macedonia/Macedonian to Northern Macedonian / Northern Macedonians.
The pity is that Greece has quadrupled its territory in 100 years. Part of this expansion was annexation of Macedonia in 1913. Until 1945 they called it New Greece or New Territories, until 1989 it was Northern Greece and nowadays they call it Macedonia. They come to terms with Macedonia just recently – they STILL don’t want to put Alexander in Athens as he occupied it, not that he liberated it http://conventions.coe.int/Treaty/en/Treaties/Html/166.htm . Macedonia was more or less successfuly assimilated, AND, NOW, THEY EVEN WANT US TO DENY US OUR OWN IDENTITY.
“Pisses us off not that they lie to us, but that they ask us to believe them” to paraphrase…
And, finally, lots of nations are proud that in the worst times they fought for their identity and managed to win. So, the name is not for sell. We will be the poorest country in Europe. But we will have our proud name. Macedonians.
Kiro
P.S. But, Sasha, when you will disclose your real origin? Spelling of one name gave it – you are not from Prilep, and when you did not notice that mistake, you are not from Macedonia either.

Epaminondas, did you also notice that I misspelled your name too? Your attention to detail is not quite good, but I did not succeed to make you angry about your name.
All the others make us angry. First, you continue not to check UN archives and you speak about “international community” and their decisions. My goal was to try to show you somehow the original documents. The delicate wording in it. The delicate usage of “the former Yugoslav…” . You continue to speak about some “acronym”, typography of that “acronym”, and EAR’s decision not to follow rule of law but to bend to Athens position (EAR for Balkans is in Thessaloniki).
First and foremost “the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia” is a provisional reference without support of Macedonia (again, I would like to link to UN archive documents, but it is impossible). Secondly, just check the so called acronym. If it was a real acronym, why we need this small o? Why we are not only FYRM? Too firm and hard? So, even the wording of the EAR example shows you that Macedonia does not recognize FYROM. All the UN documents are signed on different cover page – Macedonia signs cover page where it says Republic of Macedonia and relevant UN agency. UN agency signs other version of the cover page that says “the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia”. Or, if it is a multilateral document – Republic of Macedonia just sends a letter in which it confirms that International accord that and that is agreed and it will become law in Republic of Macedonia. Signed by Prime minister, Republic of Macedonia. Between me and you, in the early 1992 there were like 2-3 document signed by Minister of Foreign Affairs and the President where it says “the former Yugoslav…” . It was before the UN membership. After that, the Government is pretty finicky and does not allow anything but Republic of Macedonia (or short – Macedonia).
Again, there used to be different agencies that had different (and arbitrary) opinion on this matter. I noticed also that Italians are the worst offenders and know-it-alls. For the rest, I personally contacted some of the relevant agencies and after simple pointing towards UN departments, they always obey and they use “the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia” AND for acronyms they use two-letter and three-letter ISO acronyms MK and MKD. And it is the solution for the Olympic Games or Eurovision (MKD and FYR Macedonia in use)… Yes there are stubborns but who cares, it will come to the real name soon (we are in ICJ anyway) and later on in the UN we’ll do it the same way like Serbia did with Kosovo. Prof. Janev who prepared Serbia UN case is a Macedonian with strong theoretic work on the “name-problem”.
And Athens is changing its position since 1992 – Lisbon declaration of EU12 called for non-recognition of any country with Macedonia in its name, Athens gathered 1 million protesters in Thessaloniki and swore to death that they will not economically support irredentist Macedonia. In 2007 they couldn’t gather one thousand and all the countries recognized us with Macedonia in our name and Greece is third biggest investor in Macedonia (Veropoulos is the sponsor of Macedonian basketball team). Even more, UK and Ireland call us by our constitutional name and gradually all the rest 9 EU12 countries will follow. Also, now Greece officially recognizes that we have 38% of Macedonia http://www.mfa.gr/www.mfa.gr/Articles/en-US/280308_alp_1640.htm and now the bargaining is about the scope of usage… They cannot win this one, but we agreed not to humiliate them, but to slowly get what’s ours, together with EU accession. I consider NATO as done deal.
Finally, name talks are contract with the devil to sell my soul. It is unenforceable in court even that I signed it… And I don’t feel that we need anyone’s sympathy or support. This has to be solved in Court – it is irrational problem and Athens just puts new requests on the table. Your only proper position can be – it is their name, who gives a f*ck what they do with it…

Kiro, you are absolutely right on everything you say but we make our destiny through the comprehension of reality. We are students of a period in time trying to understand why a government would be using Greek paraphernalia like statues etc. to demonstrate our identity. As Macedonians we should be proud of our Slavic roots as our forefathers were. Noe this government wants us to turn into some our diaspora fantasy people who look to Al.Veliki and co. for our origins. This Kiro is not us. In Prilep our youth are proud of who we are and that is Macedonians without fabricated histories. You are right that SDSM had all those years to change the name but that does not mean we should not consider it now. We are Macedonians! So putting a north in our name should not worry people. The youth of Macedonia are beginning to hold our successive governments to account and if we do not get into the right frame of mind the youth will speak out. Macedonians are Macedonians whether a north is in front or not that is reality not these fabricated fears some of our politicians continue to raise. Don't forget the world has recognised us as Macedonians a long time ago so making reasonable compromises are an advantage for us. North is as harmless Republic! We were the peoples..... Now we are FYROM. Next it can be Rep. of Nth Mkd. It is an illussion to think that this would alter our Identity. Gruevski and his cronies esp. Milosovski have handled this as bad as our other gov. but they can make it work for all of us. Courts are good Kiro but they do not feed our Narod, people do and that's us on the ground............

Kiro - the word is spelled "right", not "write" (unless you mean 'pisati / napisati' in its imperfective and perfective verb forms) , so we are "quits" on mutual mis-spellings.

Beyond that, you need to look at my URLs more closely. The international community - rightly (writely ?) or wrongly - had determined how and in what typgraphy the fYRoM acronym should be used. And I would not discount the power of EAR - the EU's main funding authority for EU actions in your region, much as I personally think that the position they have taken about the spelling of the acronym is a bit unhelpfully strict.

Remember - people like me are really on your side, not the Greek one.

Sasha,

Forgot to mention - Greece is third biggest investor in Macedonia. If the name is ever for sale, we will probably offer it to the best bidder. Not to the third one...

Sasha,
Where do I come from? Macedonia. And I am Macedonian. I always will be. Nobody never, ever, called himself something else than Macedonian in my family. Never. My grandparents fought for Macedonia. I do not own the name so I can sell it. As Mr. Voskopoulos put it – it is not about archeology and history. It is about HUMAN RIGHTS. We have the right, according to UN Universal Declaration of Human Rights to self-declare as we want. By changing the name of the country, we will become North Macedonians. That we are not. We are Macedonians.
It's BS that Macedonia can do something to remedy GREEK PROBLEM WITH OUR NAME. So far, some things happened in this "dispute" (read Greek problem with the occupied territories).
0. Athens almost finished assimilation of Macedonia province. Millions of people self-declare as Greeks, speak Greek and feel Greek besides their Macedonian roots. In the nineties Republic of Macedonia scared them - Athens thought that we have power and will to reverse that process. And THEY CREATED the problem, unheard in world history. Not a single time happened that one side tells the other about the name.
1. Under the pressure Macedonia did not bend to accept the provisional reference as a name. Macedonia agreed on the Interim Accord under the pressure of the embargo just in time when European Court put Greece in violation of EU charter! No single country is allowed to make embargoes; it is EU right to do that.
2. Macedonia made some Constitutional changes - changed the flag, some paragraphs that deal with it's duty to protect Macedonians in the world including neighboring countries. In practice, we allowed whole world to use UN provisional reference as a name even it is illegal according to international laws.
3. NATO veto come even it is written in the Interim Accord that we agree not to be called Macedonia in NATO.
And Greece did nothing. Even that they are not allowed to deal with our name, NOW THEY "ALLOW US TO PUT GEOGRAPHIC QUALIFIER." You can never solve an irrational problem, therefore, seek justice in Court.
So, Sasha, nothing can be done, but going for the Court to decide who is right. And this process is ongoing. And we will surely win. UN, NATO, EU are not clubs with bouncers on the doors that arbitrarily choose who can enter. North-Athlantic Treaty Organization is a TREATY organization that has its documents - when we will prove in the Court that every possible request from the NATO MAP was fulfilled and we were ready to get membership and we were arbitrarily denied, then we will get the membership. The same with EU. Consider the fact that it is good for NATO too. Tomorrow, maybe Albania will try to block Montenegro for 2 acres of land...
Finally, I really believe that the deal has been made back in 1999. NATO used and still uses Macedonia as an only rout to supply and protect its forces in Kosovo. Macedonia sold out Serbia and the only price we needed for that was the name. And we are going to get it back, soon.
P.S. If that was an easy solution – just add North and we are done, why don’t you look back through UN documents regarding the name talks to check who dismissed that proposal? And many more others? Or SDSM that now speaks about changing the name had like 15 years to change it. Why didn’t they change it already if it was an easy solution? Even that they have no right on the name of our country, they are bullying us. Never conform to a bully. The next time he will ask even for more.

Kiro, I understand where you are coming from but please as Macedonians we already. So why is our antiquity obsessed government not willing to finish this fiasco. Many of our young (I'm 17) here in Prilep are feeling very, very disorientated. You sound like you know what you're talking about, answer this one thing for me, why is our government listening to the fanciful wishes of our diaspora who somehow think we have ancient roots when it is certain we are Slavs. The youth of Macedonia want decent answers not Political rhetoric, we are Macedonians so if our constitutional name gets a North added to it we will still be Macedonian. This confusion our government is causing is starting to make many people to look for answers..............

Epamonidas, you cannot get MY name write, not the name of my country. Well informed is the link on the http://faq.macedonia.org site. THERE IS NO ACRONYM.
Why going to "well informed sources"... Go to the original source - the UN archives. If you can find them on the original site... There you will find the exact wording of all the documents relating to Macedonia. There's no chance to shorten the name to FYROM. If you want short versions - use MK or MKD, according to ISO.

Kiro - at last ! Here is my original source URL (look down to the "Macedonia" item.) This is an extremely well informed international website supported by the UK Foreign Office in Wilton Park, Sussex, UK.

URL is:
http://www.sussexineurope.org/news_2.htm

I'm getting warmer - here is an instruction issued by Sr Luigi Sandrin, director of the EU Agency for Reconstruction (EAR) in former Jugoslavia:

<<Several months after the realization of the project had started, on 16 March, 2006, Mr. Luigi Sandrin changed the conditions of the agreement. Namely, he sent a “Note to all partners that have concluded an agreement with EAR”. The subject of the note: “Use of the name of the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia”.

In the note, Mr. Sandrin informs us that the only denomination that can be used is “former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia” (with a small “f” and a small “o” and with capital letters only in the beginning of the sentence), in accordance with Resolution 817/1993 of the UN Security Council and Resolution 225/1993 of the UN General Assembly.

Later on in the letter, he says: “The name “Republic of Macedonia” or “Macedonia” is not be used, notwithstanding the fact that it is the official denomination used by the country itself and that all documents from Skopje (letters, reports etc.) will refer to it in this form”.

In the end, Mr. Sandrin adds, “Please, ensure that all printed documents and external communication, as well as the web-sites, books and other materials related to EU-funded projects follow this policy”.>>

So this is one authoritative source. I know there IS a UN one too, so I shall persevere as to find it.

Sorry - forgot to post the URL ! Here it is:

http://faq.macedonia.org/politics/un.resolutions.html

Kiri - I'm getting half way. Here is the text of all six Resolutions, and they all speall "fYRoM" my way. (By the way, there is a rule that I have still to re-find that states that - at the beginning of a sentence only - it can be spelled "FYRoM", as the word "former" would then have a capital letter in English.)

Well, Kiri, point taken, but I'll get back to my own (neutral) source and re-check. (The ironic thing is that - as others will happily tell you - I am normally on the Macedonian side in this debate, and not the Greek one.)

I am not doubting at all what you say about the full 'description', but - with respect - you really are wrong about the acronym. (I posted the whole thing about the fYRoM acronym rules- with UN URL links - on this site only one month ago, so it should not be beyond the wit of man to re-find it.)

Anyway, as I said before, to those of us in the London University School of Slavonic Studies, the acronym should be fJRoM anyway (a view also shared by the authoritative Ljubljana Chamber of Commerce and its court of arbitration, under its former head Matevs Bambic, who knew a thing or two.)

Epamonidas, before saying thing it is quite fair to the reader to check the archive of UN and to check with UN services to find out what I spelled for you.
1. It is for internal purposes for within UN. Archives does not allow external linking so find all documents regarding Macedonia and you'll see that we applied as Republic of Macedonia. That we are accepted as such, BUT, with additional provisional temporary reference "the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia". And we protested. All in the Archives of UN.
2. There is no Acronym - check with UN, or simply search the UN sites to find out that on all UN sites there are 788 mentions of FYROM as an acronym (788 mistakes), former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia is mentioned 19.200 times http://www.google.com/search?q=site%3Aun.org+fyrom

I stress again that Macedonia does not accept the "former Yugoslav..." until the Interim Accord (the carrot). Even the Interim Accord does not mention not the acronym, not the UN provisional reference AS IT IS NOT AN UN document. Both parties are referenced as Party of the first Part and Party of the second Part.
So, the carrot was that when we become members of EEC and EU we and Athens will not object to be referenced as in UN. Not to change the name under pressure..
Feel free to ask if something is not clear to you.
Kiro Velkovski
Skopje, Macedonia

Aries - many thanks for this authoritative account of the Teutonic Knights' earlier (and more salubrious) years.

I can follow on with a similar abbreviated account of their later years in today's northern Poland and the Baltic States, where their conduct became more and more disgraceful as the years went on. (There is also a parallel but separate thread involving a different Order of Knights on the earlier Wendish Crusade in Germany, who went on to join the Fourth Crusade in the Sack of Constantinople, which I posted a bit about earlier)

This account is as follows (the reference to "outremer" refers to the then description of the Crusaders' conquered territories in Palestine. Now of course it means the French DOM/PTOMs !):

START

<< Formed at the end of the 12th century in Acre, in the Levant, the medieval Order played an important role in Outremer, controlling the port tolls of Acre. After Christian forces were defeated in the Middle East, the Order moved to Transylvania in 1211 to help defend Hungary against the Cumans. They were expelled in 1225 after allegedly attempting to place themselves under Papal instead of Hungarian sovereignty.

In 1230, following the Golden Bull of Rimini, Grand Master Hermann von Salza and Duke Konrad I of Masovia launched the Prussian Crusade, a joint invasion of Prussia to Christianise the Baltic Old Prussians. The Order then created the independent Monastic State of the Teutonic Knights in the conquered territory, and subsequently conquered Courland, Livonia, and Estonia. The Kings of Poland accused the Order of holding lands rightfully theirs.

The Order lost its main purpose in Europe with the Christianisation of Lithuania. The Order became involved in campaigns against its Christian neighbours, the Kingdom of Poland, the Grand Duchy of Lithuania, and the Novgorod Republic (after assimilating the Livonian Order). The Teutonic Knights had a strong economic base, hired mercenaries from throughout Europe to augment their feudal levies, and became a naval power in the Baltic Sea. In 1410, a Polish-Lithuanian army decisively defeated the Order and broke its military power at the Battle of Grunwald (Tannenberg).

In 1515, Holy Roman Emperor Maximilian I made a marriage alliance with Sigismund I of Poland-Lithuania. Thereafter the Empire did not support the Order against Poland. In 1525, Grand Master Albert of Brandenburg resigned and converted to Lutheranism, becoming Duke of Prussia. Estonia and Livonia soon followed, and also the Order's holdings in Protestant areas of Germany.>>

FINISH of extract.

There is a very good Polish film about the Battle of Tannenburg / Grunwald in 1410, called "Krzyzacy" (the Polish word for the black-cross-clad Teutonic Knights.) Worth seeing if you ever get the chance ! (Now we know where Germany got its "black-cross" emblem from !)



The Order kept its considerable holdings in Catholic areas of Germany until 1809, when Napoleon Bonaparte ordered its dissolution and the Order lost its last secular holdings. The Order continued to exist as a charitable and ceremonial body. It was outlawed by Hitler in 1938, but re-established in 1945. Today it operates primarily with charitable aims in Central Europe.

Kiri - sorry, but you're not quite right. Both UN resolutions stipulate that the full decription is the "former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia", as you say, but they also stipulate that - if abbreviated - the abbreviated acronym must use the correct upper- and lower-case letters, i.e. fYRoM, and not FYROM (or fyrom). Indeed, they make rather a point of doing this. (The same is also true for the French-language acronym.) And the acronym description was not "for internal purposes within UN only" (nice if it had been !), hence all the current fuss and the ICJ case.

Purists (such as the University of London School of Slavonic Studies) would in any case disagree, as for them the correct name of the country in English is "Jugoslavia", following more authentically closely to the local spelling of "Jugoslavija". (Curiously, I myself was always brought up at school in the UK to spell it with a J rather than a Y, though in this instance they are pronounced the same.)

So, fJRoM, here we come !

There was already a Teutonic hospital for pilgrims from Germany in the Latin Kingdom of Jerusalem. But this establishment, which was under the jurisdiction of the Grand Master of St. John, was broken up at the conquest of Jerusalem by Saladin (1187). During the Third Crusade German pilgrims from Bremen and Lübeck with the Duke of Holstein established a temporary hospital under the besieged walls of Acre; this was a large tent, constructed from the sails of their ships, in which the sick of their country were received (1190). After the capture of Acre this hospital was permanently established in the city with the co-operation of Frederick of Suabia, leader of the German crusade, and at the same time religious knights were attached to it for the defence of pilgrims. The Order of Teutonic Knights was founded and took its place beside the other two orders of Jerusalem, the Hospitallers and the Templars. As early as 1192 they were endowed by Celestine III with the same privileges as the Order of St. John, whose hospital rule they adopted, and as the Order of the Temple, from which they borrowed their military organization. Innocent III in 1205 granted them the use of the white habit with a black cross. The emperors of the House of Suabia heaped favours upon them. Moreover, they took sides with Frederick II even after he had broken with the papacy and in opposition to the other two military orders. During the Fourth Crusade, when the gates of Jerusalem were for the last time opened to Christians, under the command of this emperor, the Teutonic Knights were able to take possession of their first house, St. Mary of the Germans (1229). But it was not for long and before the end of the century they left Palestine, which had again fallen under the yoke of Islam (1291).

Epamonidas, there's no "acronym" in UN. Both short and long name are "the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia". Sanctions can not be invoked as this name is "for internal purposes within UN" only. Finally, I believe that Macedonia will win. It will show that the Greek claims that there was no veto and that Macedonia was not good neighbor are not good. Therefore, Macedonia has to be accepted. If you check the Interim Accord - it is explicit about EEC and EU.
That gives that, somehow, Greece provoked NATO situation just to force ICJ solution... Clever case of USA mediation - Greeks will be not humiliated by US, but by UN, and name case will be closed...

EPAMINONDAS
Vielen danken
For the puzzle of the Koenisberg bridges very challenging.
The complete alienation of now and then is not of cousre due only to the Russian urbanization (model which exists in every former eastern bloc Metropolis) but to extensive allies bombings

"Seven Bridges of Konigsberg" mathematical puzzle, dating from Kant's time, and based on the real-life city geography (slightly spoiled by the Russians amalgamating two of the bridges since 1945 !) This puzzle is supposed to be impossible to solve, though mathematical geniuses are said to have done so. It has sparked a whole series of subsequent mathematical exercises.

The URL link is:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_Bridges_of_K%C3%B6nigsberg

(Aries - with your IT background you should genuinely like this one ! Enjoy...)

Ivan - you're right, but it isn't only Gruevski as Captain on this particular "Ship Of Fools". Step forward Dora Bakoyannis as First Mate, Matthew Nimetz as Second Mate, and as Crew that new Bulgarian "Minister without Portfolio" (can't remember his name, but he doesn't shave and dresses rather like a beggar on the Sofia no. 20 tram !) Plus the Turks hovering around just to be awkward, plus the Albanians being difficult as Albanians always are....

Has anybody in Athens yet worked out what to do if Skopje actually WINS the current International Court of Justice Case about The Name ? The probability of this appears to be rather more than 50%, and Athens should have a Plan ready. But with the Athens government's unique ability to mis-handle international relations, probably not....

Well, thanks Aries for that very interesting "Then and Now" photo hyperlink about Kaliningrad/Koeningsberg that you sent me. Amazing how many early twentieth-century buildings survived, and very few of the mediaeval buildings or the churches. Probably a tribute more to post-war Soviet urban planning than to the selective powers of the British Royal Air Force bombing it in early 1945......

For me Macedonia is making itself a laughing stock. Any intelligent person realises what a farce it all is. Better than any TV sit com. Keep it up Skopje we all need a good laugh in these days!

This comment has been removed by the moderator because it contained реклама & спам.

Aries - yes ! Immanuel Kant, who was born and practiced in Konigsberg - now Kaliningrad - and who is indeed buried there in the Catherdral (the only reason the Russians didn't blow it up !) is our link back to the Teutonic Knights and the Fourth Crusade which sacked Constantinople.

The Teutonic Knights left one enduring architectural legacy in one of Europe's largest surviving castles - still entirely intact after 700 years, and surprisingly so after the Russian invasion of 1945 (back to Antony Beevor !)

This is at Marienburg in Polish East Prussia (now "Malbork"), and is easily accessible by train from Gdansk or Elblag (used to be "Elbling"). Definitely worth a visit, and the Polish State has looked after its castles well, even during the Communist era.

What is wrong with using the name internationally. Again morons lead us to a dead-end. If we don't get into EU soon I leave Macedonia for Bulgaria and only return when as a Macedonian we are free of this koorats running our country......

Hey Dana, you want to believe that the fascists can solve the problem. When we had the socialists they played around with our ID all the time too. To be a Macedonian is only right if we are accepted as such by all and we are except the Greeks and Bulgarians. But you are right Dana, if it is only to put north in front of our constitutional name what is the problem. I believe there is something deeper than this name rubbish and it probably has something to do with our governments belief in antiquity. I hope they stop this bulshit and realise we are Slavs and together with our neighbours have similar customs, songs, dances, and jokes. Why the government wants to have ancient Greek Statues in skopje is stupid. One day I will send a statue of Karev the hero of Krushevo who should be in the centre of Skopje not this Alexander who was a homosexual like Gruevski and his boyfriend Milosovski. Time for EU and NATO not time for ancient homosexuals like Philip stadium and Alexander both not Slavs.. I hope our government doesn't decide to build statue of Ataturk just because he was also born in Solun.........

Epaminondas
A bit of idealisnm
Hegel as you correctly mentioned
the greatest of allGermanidealists held that reality must be rational
in order that we can reveal it through the stucture of our thought
according to to Hegel all logic is dialectical in character.
Kant in Antinomies "One general description of the world commonly leads us to a contemplation of the opposite"
which leads in turn that the human mind moves from thesis to antithesis to syntesis the basic philosophical argument of Aristoteles of Stageira and the Stoics.

Weary as it is to be spelling sub-moderator on this posting, I have to point out to Hank that his mention of "FYROM" is in clear breach of UN Resolutions 225/1993 and 817/1993, and that (in theory) UN sanctions could be invoked against him. The correct UN spelling (and the UN insisted that ONLY this be used) is fYRoM in English and ERYdM in French.

Again our fascist government refuse to meet the Greeks half way. These stupid, imbeciles are takimg us down the road of despair. While they can sit and eat cavier with French champagne patting each other on the back at how again they have thwarted the talks we the narod have live off scraps. We want to enter Europe with our identity in tact but giving our country a geographic qualifier does nothing to our ID so what is the FM talking about. These people have tp go. Everyone calls us Macedonians whether the Greeks like it or not. Changing the constitutional name to Rep. of North Macedonia should be good for all of us. But no the government plays with their scare tactics that if we concede we'll lose our ID. One day someone needs to give them both (GRuevski and MILOSOVski) a nice big frozen cucumber up the backside to check if their ID is correct......Their poor wives, imagine nothing in bed everynight as the local gossip is and then to have cucumbers as replacements. Macedonia needs to change not its ID but its leaders the village idiots, an ex-boxer and his twit. We are concerned and we deserve better not these bunch of antiquity fabricators......

Chipperfield:
Education is a must for everyone especially for those who post here.

Please get one & leave off your inane nationalistic jingoism

The Greek objections to the name of Macedonia by the ethnic mulatoes
in Skopie are silly. They still suggest that Yugoslavia is alive.
Geographically and historically Macedonia was partitioned between Serbia, Greece and Bulgaria in 1913. All leading historians and
ethnographers in the 19th century
considered the Macedonians Bulgarians, and if one goes 1200
years back will find irrefutable evidence that Macedonia was a land populated with Slavs evolving as Bulgarians. The Greeks are relying on the glory of Alexander the Great, the Macedonian, who was not even a Greek. Silly, silly,
Silly Greek claim.

Calling FYROM by the Greek name "Macedonia" is historically incorrect. FYROM are Bulgarians-Slavs and speak Bulgarian they need to stop their childish behaviour and find their own history and culture and not steal it from Greece.
Macedonia was, is and always will be Greek.

Sorry to post again so soon, but I did a typo on "gel" below. I meant of course "Hegel", the father of Classical Determinism, and not "Engels", who manipulated it subsequently to suit the Communist purpose. (That said, it is rather a pity that one can no longer study 'Marxism-Leninism' in Europe's older universities...the Marxist-Leninist Faculty in Krakow always gave the best parties !)

About Edward Stettinius / Edvard Szczecinski (to give him his proper name), the less said the better. He made some very questionable decisions elsewhere in Central/East Europe, as President Roosevelt was disabled by illness. The Russian occupation of Prague (which had already been liberated by the US Army) was just one of them. I could list lots more of them, but I don't want to stretch readers' patience.

Aries - you are becoming a total historical "determinist": tu deviens une deterministe complete !

Determinism usually goes with being an avowed believer in the "Marxist dialectic" of history, i.e. history "recycles" under the influence of hidden socio-economic forces (some Marxists would delete the "socio-") until a stage of thesis-antithesis-sythesis is reached. gel said much the same thing, and Lenin adapted some of it to suit his purposes. But I am not sure that this is really your "thing"...

Epaminondas
Yesterday my troubles seemed so far away ........
Oh yesterday,
History has an unrefutable tempo
which goes like that
memes causes memes effets
same causes same effects
(for those who have problemms french you are not the case)
Cheers!

A fair historical point, Aries, but 1944 was yesterday's politics in yesterday's world, before the end of World War Two and also before the start and end of the Greek Civil War 1946-49, during which time much changed.

There is also the quite piquant and ironic point that Stettinius himself came from "stolen territory", i.e by his name his forebears would have been immigrants from the German city of Stettin in Pomerania.

Unfortunately, it wasn't. It was the Polish city of Szczecin, stolen from Poland by the Teutonic Knights in 1243, after the Wendish Crusade of 1147 (led by a Teuton called Albert the Bear) and the Fall of Edessa in 1144. From 1243 until 1945 Szczecin remained German, but in 1945 it regained Polish control (one year after Stettinius' pronouncement - interesting to see how he might have re-phrased it just one year later !) In short, a bit of a discredited source these days.

(I'm a bit intrigued by the Wendish Crusade and by Albert the Bear, too - your research into the Teutonic Knights was well-placed !)

Epaminondas
The followintg
can be clonsidered a mosdern
sequel to your scholar exposition on roman admiminstration of their empire.

Certainly there was no doubt of the underlying point of “Macedonia” in the mind of U.S. Secretary of State Edward Stettinius on December 26, 1944, when he wrote:
“The Department [of State] has noted with considerable apprehension increasing propaganda rumors and semi-official statements in favor of an autonomous Macedonia, emanating principally from Bulgaria, but also from Yugoslav Partisan and other sources, with the implication that Greek territory would be included in the projected state.This government considers talk of Macedonian ”nation”, Macedonian “Fatherland”, or Macedonian “national consciousness” to be unjustified demagoguery representing no ethnic nor political reality, and sees in its present revival a possible cloak for aggressive intentions against Greece.”

[Source: U.S. State Department, Foreign Relations vol viii, Washington, D.C., Circular Airgram (868.014/26Dec1944)]

Sorry to post twice in succession (bad Internet manners !), but here are some precise historical references for what I posted earlier about "Macedonia Salutaris":

START:

<< The Roman province of Macedonia was officially established in 146 BC, after the Roman general Quintus Caecilius Metellus defeated Andriscus of Macedon in 148 BC, and after the four client republics ("tetrarchy") established by Rome in the region were dissolved. The province incorporated Epirus Vetus, Thessaly, and parts of Illyria and Thrace.

After the reforms of Diocletian in the late 3rd century AD, Epirus Vetus was split off, and early in the 4th century AD, the province of Macedonia itself was divided into Macedonia Prima in the south and Macedonia Salutaris in the north. These provinces were all subordinate to the Diocese of Macedonia, one of three dioceses which were included in the praetorian prefecture of Illyricum, organized in 318 AD. When the Prefecture was divided between the Western and Eastern Empires in 379, the Macedonian provinces were included in Eastern Illyricum. With the permanent division of the Empire in 395 AD, Macedonia passed to the East, which would evolve in due course into the Byzantine Empire >>

- END -

Hope this satisfies at least some of the potential critics (once can never satisfy all of them, even with a "cut and dried" case ! Some will argue that 'black is white' until the cows come home !)

By the way, one suggestion to the Macedonian government in Skopje - rename your over-large statue of Alexander as Roman general Quintus Caecilius Mettelius. He is the true father in ancient times of your country of Macedonia Salutaris/ Secunda, not Alexander.

Well, without provoking all the previous series of postings - polite and otherwise - all I can factually comment is that the Greek claim that the name "Macedonia" is 'historically inappropriate' is incorrect. The area of former Yugoslav 'Macedonia' was called "Macedonia Salutaris" by the Roman Empire for centuries, after the Roman conquest of all Macedonia in 146 BC. Later it was called "Macedonia Secunda", the area of Aegean/Greek Macedonia being called "Macedonia Prima".

So there is a strong and accurate precedent in ancient history for there being two Macedonias. As Greek Prime Minister Karamanlis recently said in the Macedonian context: "history cannot be changed" (though he may regret having said this !)