Epaminondas, I am touched. Do you keep my postings so that you can read the again and again?
Why do you always have to bring me into your madness?

I have seen you post on EVERY subject here and you always claim to be the expert on everything. I have never seen someone know everything about everything.
If it helps you look smarter then go ahead and abuse my name.
Just remember, only a small petty man needs to put someone else down (you have on many occasions) in order [...]

Read the full comment to look good himself.

Also Epaminondas, George II, and many other names you go by. Why do you need to have multiple personalities in order to appear to have supporters?

I have read so many articles here and all I see is you everywhere speaking in different langauges as if that means you know what you are talking about.

I can use goodle translate too you know but I don't pretend to speak all those languages like you.

You know you are quite a pathetic little man.

Somebody - Lita (?) was saying that Peggy never posted about Serbs or Serbia. Here's an extract from her immortal prose from elsewhere on this site today (25 Aug):

<<Serbia, no point in talking to the Albanians and Croats on this site.
They know wht they did too but will not acknowledge it.

They know their own is guilty of horrible crimes against the Serbs but as far as they are concerned they don't care. All they care about is trashing Serbs.
The world is waking up and [...]

Read the full comment seeing the truth slowly but they will continue to peddle their version of events till the day they die.

The truth doesn't serve them well, so they have to turn everything around and keep saying that only the Serbs killed and therefore every Serb got what they deserved.

Give up on Serbian enemies. They will always remain that but all you will get is a headache from banging your head against a brick wall. (signed: Peggy) >>

Yes Lita,
technically you could say that my breakfast this morning belongs to history, but I suspect that you are intelligent enough to see the differents between баби и жаби.
Being revolted by a bunch of folks, otherwise not much different from me, killing each other for a decade in the end of the 20th century, over land ethnicity anh history, hardly turns me into one of them.
You could twist anything that way to justify what you wanna think in a first place - slightly childish, but fine otherwise.

@ Valeri:

Based on what u have said in one of ur posts
("I expect certain degree of lunacy from our ex-Yugoslav friends - I call it "abused child syndrome", having been bitch slapped by the Serbs for 80 years") I wouldnt say that u r sincere when u say "...I am not making ethnic - historical commentary " (since its very obvious u doing that) but since u beleive that"...all those ex-Yugoslavs here, (and some Greeks) one can't really inject practical bits into the conversations.... ", Im afraid that there is no point [...]

Read the full comment to to try to explain some facts. cheers

@ Valeri:

Based on what u have said in one of ur posts
("I expect certain degree of lunacy from our ex-Yugoslav friends - I call it "abused child syndrome", having been bitch slapped by the Serbs for 80 years") I wouldnt say that u r sincere when u say "...I am not making ethnic - historical commentary " (since its very obvious u doing that) but since u beleive that"...all those ex-Yugoslavs here, (and some Greeks) one can't really inject practical bits into the conversations.... ", Im afraid that there is no point [...]

Read the full comment to to try to explain some facts. cheers

Does Greece understand Turkey's concerns about being hemmed in, in the Aegean? No.
I'm not suggesting what the Turks are doing is right. But having a special arrangement with your neighbour could solve this problem.

MEXMET.
Just to pepper up.
let it be let it be
it keeps both air-forces busy
in Ankara some generals are happy
feeling grandiose
in Athens the usual political bullshit and intrigues.
in general it has become a modus vivendi during summer
no more no less
if you imply anything else
then
there is a splendid Lacedaemonian(you known these folks of Dorian stock) dictum which goes like
<< ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ >>
words thick and [...]

Read the full comment stiff dorian style.
PS.
if there is something you might not understand i wiil more than
glad to help.

Valeri - your talk show item about Greece-Turkey is certainly highly amusing, but it makes a serious point ! Such things are not confined to the USA - we have them in UK too ....

Our best one recently was a long report initially in the tabloid press about an elderly UK couple being savaged to death by a pack of wild dogs in Georgia. Then even the broadsheet press (the equivalent of the "Washington Post")took up the story, with long and erudite articles about the decline of urban safety in Georgia since the Russian intervention [...]

Read the full comment a year ago, and how even diplomats in Tflisi had to take care about scavenging wild dogs and worse. Shock,Horror, etc. all round.

UNFORTUNATELY, it emerged after a week or so of such wild UK press speculation that in fact the incident was indeed true, but had instead taken place in a very rural part of Georgia, USA, where feral dogs are a problem for quite different reasons. And the US authorities had taken firm action, had caught all the dogs, and had destroyed them, with photos of the operation duly and properly released to the US press. (It just took some time to percolate back to the UK).

Meanwhile, the Georgian Embassy in London (that's the former USSR one !) had lodged a protest with the British Foreign Office about inaccurate reporting, and how about how all the dogs in Tflisi were impeccably well looked-after and perfectlt safe (believe that one ? But they saw their PR opportunity and maximised it !)

There may be a lesson here for this site as a whole - check facts first (including myself !)

Until the Aegean map changes, there is no stopping to this trouble. Look at the map, its so unfair. The Greekos got all the islands and the sea. Now, we need the sea, so either you back of to the middle of the sea or trouble never ends :)

Epami,
as far as the Americans in all that - this is what an issue it is for them:

I was listening to a political talk show on line the other day and someone called, wanting to discuss "the Greece - Turkey" problem.
The host didn't even get it at first, and when he did his reaction was: - Oh, you are talking about the countries!
I thought that there were some problems down at the Butteball company....

Butterball is the biggest Turkey meat company in [...]

Read the full comment the US, that is probably responsible for much of the excess fat of their people, especially around "Thanksgiving"..

Valeri - yes you're right about my sinful British Government and EU past in Poland, Slovenia, Russia, Czech Rep., Slovakia, Lithuania, Romania, Croatia, Moldova, Serbia, Bulgaria, and even Greece ! Turkey we only went to on holiday, though we had an unpleasant encounter with their secret police when my wife said too much inadvertently.

So I tend to be rather less of a "bookish type" - much as I recognise the profile all too well - and more of a practitioner. Beyond that, of course I agree with you entirely.

Epami:

"Valeri - possibly to your surprise, I entirely agree with your last two postings,.."

Not at all Epami.

Unless I didn't catch it right, you did say that you were involved with some EU missions in Eastern Europe, so I expect you to be informed. I know many people in BG politics, who regularly take advantage of my inquisitive nature and dump much more information on me, than I ever ask for.

Here's my life in a snap shot:

[...]

Read the full comment Most of my associates are business folks, with many vises and not that many scruples.

My friends on the other hand are mostly the bookish, intellectual type, interested in every possible type of knowledge and opinions, with the only prerequisite for that information being that can never make them any money;)

But I do love them for it, because the world needs folks like them, especially Bulgaria which has certainly become cruder in those transition years. If I may be so presumptuous, you strike me as the bookish type, and like you for it.

Inadvertently I usually end up as a something of a novelty in both circles.

I feel very sorry for Greece. International law counts for nothing if your aggressive muslim neighbour has America backing it.

Valeri - possibly to your surprise, I entirely agree with your last two postings, and with your response to Aries in particular.

The "outhouse" point is an interesting one; you are quite right that in US films and cartoons (such as Gary Larson) this is always portrayed as having a cut-away crescent in the door, probably both for ventilation and for seeing if it is occupied or not. Why the crescent was chosen in the US I do dot know, except that it isn't customary in Britain (we use a cut-away circle or square. In Poland [...]

Read the full comment they use a circle for "women" and an inverted triangle for "men")

The US word "outhouse" as such isn't used in Britain (if used at all, it means "garden shed"), but there are a variety of local dialect words such as "cludgy" (Lancashire) and "bog" , also "crapper" in the West Country. In Wales the universal term is "Ty-bach", but this is a Welsh-language word meaning "Little House".

We may be getting a bit "off-topic", so I'll stop !

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This comment has been removed by the moderator because it contained не е по темата на статията

This comment has been removed by the moderator because it contained реклама & спам

it seems to me that people in govt in Turkey dont want to join EU but also dont want to be obvious about it. what better way than to have some fly overs and cause tension, get some media on how awful this is and then have a decision come down that, oh well still a long way to go fellas b4 u can join up.

there is always an agenda & there is plenty of politics in the background over regional influence.

This comment has been removed by the moderator because it contained реклама & спам

This comment has been removed by the moderator because it contained реклама & спам

This comment has been removed by the moderator because it contained реклама & спам

This comment has been removed by the moderator because it contained реклама & спам

This comment has been removed by the moderator because it contained реклама & спам

This comment has been removed by the moderator because it contained реклама & спам

cont.
don't get me wrong - I am not one to defend the US.
My point is that the Turks distrust the US even more than you guys.

My Turkish friend had to go to Turkey, (from the States, when I used to work there) to do his military duty.
Anyhow, at the time there was a hit, American, animated movie in the theaters.
The Turkish Army made the soldiers watch it, to show them the beginning when the character comes out of a outhouse, with a moon [...]

Read the full comment on the door. Don't ask me why the Americans put moons on their outhouses, but it's older than me, for sure.
That moon, was a prove of American disrespect for Turkey, which of course has a crescent as a national symbol.

Such a ridiculous demonstration of official insecurity and provinciality, is hard to top! Sure it was propaganda, but the naiveté about it is stunning!

Aries,
very interesting.
I don't know you, but have enjoyed your posts immensely, for they are very thoughtful.
On this topic I see passion that perhaps betrays humanity and all, yet it will be pity if you allow for this (or indeed, any) injustice to, take the best of your philosophical nature, exhibited here, Aries.
The Turks know very well what they are doing.
They are rattling your cage, with your kind indulgence, and by doing so keep some tension that allows them to extract concessions and acquire leverage from [...]

Read the full comment the Americans, who care about little else than their wars in the Middle East, yes Israel, but also NATO, which is becoming ever more important to them.
Turkey is being a mini North Korea in this instance, and trying to get what they want.
She is acting like a child, and you are rewarding here with what she's asking for - attention and importance.
There's no way in hell that the Turks pose a serious danger for Greece, given their intertwined relationship, and to lump them with the Americans as somehow enemies of Greece, is intellectually lazy.
The Turks talk the same way about Greece - that the US is supporting them and conspiring against Turkey.
I have a Turkish friend, who talks just like you.

NIK.
"There is nothing anyone can do,it is written that there will be a war between greece and turkey.The turks have what is ours Konstantinople be prepared Agia Sophia will once again be in hellenic hands."
THIS SOUNDS AS A FANATIC OLD MAN'S CURSE IN A SCHIZOID OUTBURST
It reminds of some EX-yugos as Valeri points out saying "we will take Solun again" 'and the 2012 crap about the Bucharest treaty.
Valeri
Start
I wanna be clear - I am not making ethnic - historical commentary - I [...]

Read the full comment know with all those ex-Yugoslavs here, (and some Greeks) one can't really inject practical bits into the conversations....
Per se the subject is about a Nation USA VASSAL WHO EXPLOITS
TO THE OUTMOST HER LOCATION AND
WANTS TO HAVE IT ALWATS HER WAY.
Hhow can this possibly fit un your
wishes for some practical outcomes.E
Epqaminondas
1944 and 1944 what is "sauce for the goose is sauce for the dander"
very determonistic don't you think.

Epami,
there's a very good chance that most of those extremists, on all sides, are posting from places like Vancouver and L.A.

The diasporas are very nationalistic, in part of themselves feeling discriminated or inadequate in some ways in their host
countries.

Still, fun to watch them bare their butts;)

Pavel - "courtesy costs nothing" - or didn't your teachers tell you this in whichever "ethnically-challenged" Balkan school you attended ? Only use rude words under exceptional conditions - otherwise the Moderators will delete your posts (and next time I shall complain to them directly.)

And to you and others - what does it matter if they are "Islamic" fighter planes or bombers overflying your territory ? It would be no better if they were "Christian" military aircraft from a hostile state - Britain knew plenty of that during World War Two when "Christian" German bombers [...]

Read the full comment crucified Coventry, London, Liverpool, and other cities.

The Crusades between Christians and Moslems finished 600 years ago. I know the business between Greeks and Turks in 1923-26 was a bit of a hangover from past conflicts (well, maybe Greece shouldn't have taken on Ataturk's army !), but this was the end of a mediaeval war rather than the start of a modern one.

We are now well into the twenty-first century, and attitudes should be modernising (well, maybe everywhere except in the Balkans, where evryone's folk-memory goes back 1000 years at least.) If only these folk-memories went back as far as the Roman Empire, then we should see peace and stability again.

Pavel,

sorry to tell you that, but taking down Turkish planes, while surely empowering some bruised egos, would be disastrous, not just for you in Greece, but for all of us.
I hope there are cooler heads in your government, because Turkey is much larger, much younger and, in case you haven't hear d, armed much the same way Greece is - standard NATO issue.
If you think the US and Israel condone them, then you'd be doubly foolish to start something.
I have to say that I seriously doubt [...]

Read the full comment the US approves of Turkey's provocations. The Turks and the Greeks are jeopardizing (again - our unfortunate neighborhood) the cohesiveness of NATO, - an organization of utmost importance to the US, as they look forward delegating more and more of their wars to them.

Greece needs to stop complaining. No one is listening. Like with Fyrom, everyone who studies the situation knows Greece has a serious case of concern, but the facts are simple. America is in bed with Turkey and both are in bed with Israel. Until that changes, Turkey will do whatever illegal acts it chooses. Nothing can stop that.

Actual footage.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GbSXGOzNrOQ

The residents of some of these small islands have actually left as they do not feel safe with islamic bombers flying low over their houses. They know if a bomb falls on them, America and the UK will do nothing and the same with NATO. It is like a kid bullied at school leaving the school because the headmaster backs the bullies. Very sad.

In this report the islamic planes were so low over greek residents, they were scared by the noise!

http://www.monstersandcritics.com/news/europe/news/article_1491686.php/Greece_tells_Turkey_to_stop_airspace_violations

What we need is for idiots who do not follow the story to either get educated or expect being humiliated. The Turks fly all over the Greek Islands. They do not care if it is within 8 miles, or actually over the residents. It is about telling Greece, America and the Uk back this Islamic nation over Greece and now Greece's Islands could be one day Turkish. Greece [...]

Read the full comment needs to shoot the planes down or hand the Islands to Turkey. By doing nothing, Greece is just being humiliated by this aggressive muslim neighbour.

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Sorry - Valeri posted again simultaneously with me. I agree with his posting starting "Lia" slightly more than I agree with his posting starting "Nik", but fundamentally I agree with them both !

Pavel - don't use gratuitous rude words, or the Moderators will cut you off (and rightly so). We still don't know PRECISELY where the Turks are over-flying, and how this impacts territorial limits, both 6- or 10-mile. (I agree with you that they should not do it, but let's at least be precise about what they are doing, rather than uselessly indulging in Balkan fury).

Beyond that, I think Valeri in his posting below has got it exactly right, and has summarised the situation much better than I could do.

Nik:

"There is nothing anyone can do,it is written that there will be a war between greece and turkey.The turks have what is ours Konstantinople be prepared Agia Sophia will once again be in hellenic hands."



So, the Kosovars want Greece and Makedonia "back", The Makedonia want Pirin and Greek Makedonia "back", and you guys want Constantinopole "back"?

I expect certain degree of lunacy from our ex-Yugoslav friends - I call it "abused child syndrome", having been bitch slapped by the Serbs for 80 [...]

Read the full comment years, but to hear it coming from the "fathers of western civilization" our esteem longest EU members in the neighborhood, "EU mentors", so to say, makes me feel very, very good about being Bulgarian...

Lita,
There's that age old tradition in the Balkans of illustrating the insignificance of your neighbor, but ensuring that the tiniest road leads to them.
The road Nis - Bulgaria (to the border) was basically a village road, and Bulgaria has done everything it can to get the Serbs to enlarge it, since it is our most direct connection to the EU.
In the 90s we even got EU financing for the project, and still Belgrade blocked the endeavor. I think there's been movement on that front only lately, probably due to BGs newly [...]

Read the full comment acquired clout, as a EU member.
I have to admit that I am not as inform about the latest developments, since my close friend, working for the BG government in that area is no longer there.
Back then I used to hear much more than I wanted to, as he vented daily, very frustrated with the Serbs.

His other frustration was the Romanians with the second bridge over the Danube. They were basically putting every conceivable obstacle on its path. Another case where BG offer to carry most of the cost.
I think that one has been resolved lately too.

The funny thing is that both projects would've been beneficial to all, as infrastructure in the Balkans needs much improvement, and yet, the old Balkan mentality, took the best of us.

In contrast, the Turks have been obliging with our logistical/infrastructure needs. Like I said, probably because they had politicians who actually cared about their country's interests more than the misery of their neighbors.

I wanna be clear - I am not making ethnic - historical commentary - I know with all those ex-Yugoslavs here, (and some Greeks) one can't really inject practical bits into the conversations....

You are talking shit again.
The Turks are not flying near the Islands - within 6-8- or 10 miles, but directly over them. This has to do with who owns the islands, not airspace boundaries.

In the midst of all this furious debate, I do think that Cory Cooper had a point when he said:

(START)

<< Maybe you don't know; Air-space related problems are linked with territorial seas issue
since, according to the 1944 Chicago Convention on Civil Aviation, the width of the latter determines the former. Greece, however, claims a 10-mile national airspace over its current 6-mile territorial waters. Turkey disputes this and frequently exercises 'its right' to fly
over international airspace of Aegean Sea up to a distance of 6 [...]

Read the full comment miles to the Greek mainland,
Yet again Turkey violated Greek national airspace. Incidentally, Greece’s 10-mile airspace is not recognized by other states; including NATO countries which often 'violate' Greek airspace during NATO exercises in the Aegean.>> FINISH

Does anyone know what the 1944 Chicago Convention actually says / stipulates ? If so, it would be fairly easy to prove that Greece is (a) right, or (b) wrong, and Turkey ditto. End of problem without any more hot words on either side.

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To those defending the Turkish, talking about 10 miles or 8 miles no fly zones around Islands, you are wasting yourtime. These Turkish jets flew and continue to fly actually over the Greek Islands, not close to them. So you I say, even though you may like the smell of Turkish anus, don't post your shit on here and expect us to listen quietly to your nonsense. Turkey violates Greek airspace because the UK and USA let it. Greece should position missiles on the Islands with the help of NATO. These missiles will be triggered when foreign bombers or fighters [...]

Read the full comment fly directly over Greek territory. This is the only way it will stop.

Kuhn, these are military aircraft flying outside of legal parameters - no flight path has been determined for the areas they are flying over.

They should put a SAM site on those islands and just blow those damn Turkish jets out of our airspace. Maybe then they will get the idea of staying out of our country.

This comment has been hidden by the moderator because it contained квалификации.

This comment has been hidden by the moderator because it contained квалификации.

There is nothing anyone can do,it is written that there will be a war between greece and turkey.The turks have what is ours Konstantinople be prepared Agia Sophia will once again be in hellenic hands.

It's time for the Greek politicians to adopt a totally new attitude towards Turkey, that means being strong and not attentist. The greek government is sleeping and is unable to stop this conflict to become bigger. They should shout down the jets that violate their airspace. Simply like that, because Turkey jets have no right to violate the greek airspace. In other countries, they would have done it.
Greece must not be afraid of the consequences of a such military act.

To whom it may concern.

The "Spoiled child of Usa and Britain" ,lies on the other side of the AEGEAN AND YOU BLOODY KNOW IT VERY WELL, SOME PEOLPLE WON'T JUST ADMIT IT.

I CAN HARDLY IMAGINE IF GREECE WAS NOT THE "SPOLIED CHILD" OF EUROPE AS YOU SAY WHAT WORSE COULD HAVE HAPPENED"

Thanks Cory. That's it. Your comment is very nice answer to "spoild child" of Europe whom always cry but do nothing!

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@ Valerie: Would u explain what do u mean by saying that Serbia is isolating you and that is blocking improvement of Nis - Sofia road for decades? :S

Its time Hellas sends out a very clear warning to Turkey that this type of provocation will have far reaching implications and consequences for Turkey if Hellas decides to unleash her S300 missiles on Turkish planes.
I think that now is the time for Hellas to draw blood.
ZHTO H HELLAS

Coopers or whoever.
The 10 miles of Greek airspace is
connected to Greece's point that the islands do have a continental shelf. About the the incidentally
please spare me the time and effort of explaining that they(Turkey) have been doing this for about 25 years or evn more.
then have sometimes overflown
inhabitated islands.about the Nato (joint exercises) it is so dumb of you that i will not comment.
Valeri.
Turkey in EU that it the point "the OBAMA dictum" France and Germany have their objections [...]

Read the full comment they see "Clash of Civilisation" and many other. STRATEGIC CONTROL, OVER NABUCCO AND OVER IRAN,IRAQ
AND APCHASIA,KURDISTAN,CASPIAN, AND SO ON,REMAINS THE MAIN ISSUE.
My previous post may sound a bit Belicose but alas!!!!

Thanks Cory.
I wish Bulgarian news outfits begin to offer back stories for their bits.

Incidentally Turkey has probably been one of our (BG) most cooperative neighbors.
This could be in part due geography and the fact that we are important part of their link with Europe, but it does contrast with Serbia and Romania which have traditionally done everything to isolate us.
The Nis - Sofia road improvement was blocked by the Serbs for decades.
So was the new bridge by the Romanians.

[...]

Read the full comment

Maybe you don't know; Air-space related problems are linked with territorial seas issue
since, according to the 1944 Chicago Convention on Civil Aviation, the width of the latter determines the former. Greece, however, claims a 10-mile national airspace over its current 6-mile territorial waters. Turkey disputes this and frequently exercises 'its right' to fly
over international airspace of Aegean Sea up to a distance of 6 miles to the Greek mainland,
Yet again Turkey violated Greek national airspace. Incidentally, Greece’s 10-mile airspace is not recognized by other states; including NATO countries which often 'violate' [...]

Read the full comment Greek airspace during NATO exercises in the Aegean.

"... Athens expected Ankara to keep the tension in the Aegean high for the next few months, until the European Union decides in December as to how Turkey is progressing in its bid to join the bloc."

That makes no sense at all. Aries, am I missing something?

Why doesn't the EU notice this as a violaion? It's to bad they are allowed to continue doing this. This shows that they don't belong in any type of EU organization

The Turks are scum bags! They again show a lack of respect for the law. Thats OK they in the end will lose.

EPAMINONDAS

les chiens aboient la caravane
passe

it lasts for 20 yeas at leaast and
i will keep on so until the S-300
residing on Crete downs one or two
of the intruders.

These bastards have no respect for any laws of sovereignty, they should be shot down every time this happens, its a reoccuring problem and Greece shold be receiving support from the European Union to counteract this pathetic, imperial sign of intimidation!

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With the greatest possible respect, Aries, I'm not sure I see your point. The increasing incidence of Turkish incursions into Greek airspace is actually quite a serious problem.

When you have othing else to wear
But clothes of gold and satin rare.
For clothes of gold you cease to care.
Up goes the price of the shoddy.