And I don't want to meet this b*gger on a Sofia tram - he looks like the worst sort of ticket inspector who likes a bribe before he fines you !

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Epami,
do you know the one of the Poliak and the gold fish?
Well the guy catches her, and his three wishes are for the Chinese to invade Poland, every time.
After it the gold fish asks him: you must really hate your country, to want it to be invaded three times!
He says: yes three times to Poland but six times, where do you think they pass through;)

"...Minister without portfolio, responsible for Bulgarians abroad, Bozhidar Dimitrov is known for his outspoken views on Macedonian issues..."
Now I feel really important - I have a minister (without portfolio)LOL.

Here's a further quote (I may have confused my prepositions: 'nad' is 'over' and 'na' is 'on', but 'na' takes the locative case as in the poem, and 'nad' takes the instrumental case, (I don't think Bulgarian carries this distinction). Also 'stoyut' and ' stavyat' are respectively perfective and imperfective forms of the same verb. Anyway, extract follows:

(START)

<< Bykov's and Vyssotsky's treatment of war appears ideologically irreproachable (Vyssotsky's only text officially published during his lifetime was the song "Na bratskikh mogilakh ne stavyat krestov..." [They Don't Put Up Crosses On [...]

Read the full comment Communal Graves...]).

But their works legitimize the contemporary experience rather than that of the past. Commenting on his own songs during one of his concerts,[23] Vyssotsky said he was interested in war because during war people are always in a situation of risk and trial. Paradoxically, and very productively, Vyssotsky's songs combine two traits: stress on impending personal or collective doom ("Yak-istrebitel" [The Fighter Plane's Song], "Spasite nashi dushi" [Save Our Souls], also typical of Vyssotsky's "non-war" songs "Okhota na volkov" [The Wolf Hunt]) and a readiness for desperate personal action, which is the only way secretly to make the world shift a little ("My tolkaem zemlyu" [We Are Pushing the Earth]). The need to explain states of doom and absurd fervour, as well as ways to transcend everyday morality, led Vyssotsky to write a song from the perspective of a Nazi soldier – a song that sounds aloof yet involves psychological analysis ("Over the Scorched Plane / Metre after metre / The soldiers of the Mitte army group / Are marching through Ukraine").>>

KONYETS / FINISH

Sorry - Aries - the Russian is different from the Bulgarian. "Bratski mogili" (nominative case) means either "common grave" or "mass grave". I was taught this poem as part of my Russian lessons some years ago, but another version (set to music) is:

"Na Bratskikh mogilakh ne stavyat krestov i vdovi na nikh ne ridayut. .... Stepyu-dolinoyu, nad tsvetami-travami, vetsya znamya krasnoe, pleshet na vetru. ..."

"Vdovi" is 'widows' - do I need to continue ?

Epaminondas
If my little knowledge of Slav is correct
the interprtation may go as
follows:
Over brothers' graves no crosses stand.
bratsky -brat -brother
mogila - earth upheavel-monticule
grave

Epami,
I am not surprised that most Germans think tha the russians killed more of thei civilians.
Most Americans are under the impression that the US defeated Germany with the help of Russia and the French probably teach their kids that they won too.
The Germans killed 15% of all Russians in Russia, and I have to tell you, I would't leave too many of them alive, had they done this to my country and I am in the same position.
I would've done exactly what they planned for Russia - enslave [...]

Read the full comment them, reduce their numbers and use the better looking of them as breeding material, the rest - discad!
The fact that they didn't do anything like that shows a relatively strong moral fabric given the circumstances.
And yes, the allies had 4 years to kill German civilians, but the Russian unrestrained vengance subsided after East Prussia.
The Russians are responsible for 90% of the German military deaths.

Sorry, Aries, one of the typos was mine. It should be "Antony Beevor" and not "Anthony Beevors" (a bit silly of me, as I had the Berlin book in front of me !)

His main point - and I cut'n'paste from his site (also on the front cover of the book) is as follows:
(START)

<<The Red Army had much to avenge when it finally reached the frontiers of the Reich in January 1945. Political instructors rammed home the message of Wehrmacht and SS brutality. The result was the most [...]

Read the full comment terrifying example of fire and sword ever known, with mass rape, tanks crushing refugee columns under their tracks, pillage and destruction. Hundreds of thousands of women and children froze to death or were massacred because Nazi Party chiefs, refusing to face the reality of defeat, had forbidden the evacuation of civilians until it was too late. Over seven million fled westwards from the terror of the Red Army.

Within the mass, individuals faced a totally arbitrary fate. Some suffered appallingly, others were saved by extraordinary chance. Soviet soldiers could show spontaneous generosity to German women and children as well as cruelty. This moral chaos was the outcome of a titanic conflict between the two greatest potentates in history - a pair of tyrants totally heedless of the lives of their followers. The Nazis sent fourteen-year old boys on bicycles in suicidal attacks against Soviet tanks, and as the Red Army encircled Berlin, SS squads roamed the city, shooting or hanging any man not at his post.

Hitler, half-crazed in his bunker, issued wild orders, determined to bring down the Reich capital and all its inhabitants in the monstrous vanity of a personal Götterdämmerung. Stalin, meanwhile, was prepared to risk any number of his men to seize Berlin before the Western Allies could get there. New documents from a Russian archive show for the first time that the Soviet leader had a particularly powerful motive.>>

(End)

With great respect to Valeri, this account rather demolishes his original point. The Russians showed no mercy to German non-combatants on the Eastern Front, with very rare exceptions, and their civilian graves (either mass graves or roadside burials) are still emerging in Ukraine, Poland, Lithuania and Belarus even now. So nobody can yet calculate the final figure, but it's in millions.

(The Polish Communist government erected a large monument to those murdered at Auschwitz / Oswiecim , with the words "Bylo Ich Cztery Miliony" ("There were of them Four Million"). It did this entirely in good faith (for once!), but the subsequent figure has now been revised downwards to 1.5 million. The equivalent figure for German non-combatant deaths on the Eastern Front keeps being revised in the other direction as more mass graves appear.

There's a very sombre modern Russian poem, whose first line is:

"Nad bratskikh mogilach nie stoyut kryestov" - 'Over mass graves no crosses stand'. I think this says it all......

Epaminondas.
Yes Dreesden was an atrocity .

Well - it was Valeri's point that "the vast majority of civilian deaths" were caused by Allied bombing, not mine. Anthony Beevors rather sets the record straight from the other side. The present-day German perception is - Dresden apart - that the Russians killed more civilians. (Dresden was of course an Allied atrocity, as I was personally told by locals when I rather foolishly went there in 1966 in DDR days.)

typos on both url
sorry
first .secondworldwarforum.com
second.athonybeevors.com

Epaminondas/Valeri

The only point taken of WWII
is that it should never(hopefully)
happen and not an accountant's balance of who did or did not create the bigger causalities.
[deleted link]
and Anthony Bevoor's site
[deleted link]
will help i think
Cheers

Valeri - you should perhaps read Anthony Beevor's masterly book entitled "Berlin - the downfall 1945" (ISBN 0-670-88695-5) before commenting any further. This describes the Russian capture of Konigsberg (now Kaliningrad) and the systemic rape, torture and murder of the German populations of East Prussia, Pomerania, Danzig, and Silesia during the course of the relentless Russian land advance from January 1945 onwards, culminating in the Battle for Berlin on the Seelow Heights 40 km away (at the end of the S-bahn electric railway from Berlin). Precise estimates of civilian casualties are difficult to determine, but it looks as if the [...]

Read the full comment overall figure is comparable to that of the Anglo-American bombing raids. Since it all took place within four months (Jan-April 1945) as opposed to four years (1940-45)for the bombing, it is still seared upon German collective consciousness rather more, even now.

Epami,
given the barbaric German behavior in Russia, it's fair to say that the Russians conducted themselves with remarkable restrain.
Still, the vast majority of German civilian deaths, are credited to the Anglo- Americans, who were bombing their cities, while the Russians were fighting their soldiers.

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Aries,
may be the do come from Alexander ... Look how much Greek he knows;))

Ok BD,
I wouldn't post while under the infuence.
FYI most assume tha you are Makedonian, contextually, and you are making your people look even worse tha that "Girly talk" reference.

b.d
Thanks for using a Greek Word
"Rhetoric
"in your case I'll say if you have nothing else to say Coherently and not in Hysterics (another Greek word) I suggest get lost pal!!!!

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Valeri -

Here is the URL link to the World's Most Expensive Car - the Maybach (costs 500,000 euros !):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maybach

Maybe for Boyko next time ?

Epami
Boyko is relatively rich.
There's much cash in the country, although the crises will take a toll.

I think the low business tax rate has helped many people get ahead.
Then there are many that are left behind.
It's interesting but in some ways we are much more Capitalistic than the US, which is to be expected, I suppose, after decades of forced material denial.
They, the US are nationalizing, we are privatizing.
Interesting turn.

Valeri - well, that explains why you would never see him on board a Sofia tram ! He probably has a choice of Mercedes, and for special occasions has a Maybach. (Now there IS an expensive car !)

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Aries - yes, you are quite right about Coningsby, and Aston Clinton (no relation to Bill or Hilary) is still a very up-market country town near London, even now (I used to have to drive through it once a week, going from Reading to Cambridge, and the number of Rolls-Royce cars was quite evident.)

Valeri - thanks for the photo. This guy looks as if he travels around in the back seat of a Mercedes with darkened windows all the time, so I wouldn't expect ever to see him on the humble 20 tram (or even [...]

Read the full comment the 21, which goes to a slightly more up-market district of Sofia !)

Epami,
would this guy frighten you on the tram?

http://theeulobby.files.wordpress.com/2009/07/boyko-borisov.jpg

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This comment has been removed by the moderator because it contained реклама & спам

ps.
On the looks of Bozidar
"Les apparences sont quelques fois
trompeuses"
Merci

Epaminondas ,Valeri
Benjamin Disraeli, who was the prime minister of Britain, wrote a novel titled Coningsby.The book as an ideal portrait of the Rothschild Empire. Disraeli characterized Nathan (in conjunction with his four brothers as "the lord and master of the money markets of the world, and of course virtally lord and master of everything else. He literally held the revenues of southern Italy in pawn, and monarchs and ministers of all countries courted his advice and were guided by his suggestions."
PROPERTIES OWNED BY NATHAN MAYER ROTHSCHILD
# Ascott House, Wing
[...]

Read the full comment # Aston Clinton House,
Aston Clinton
# Eythrope, Waddesdon
# Halton House, Halton
# King's Head Inn, Aylesbury
# Mentmore Towers, Mentmore
# Waddesdon Manor, Waddesdo
BY THE FRENCH BRANCH
# Chateau Lafite Rothschild
boys you've heard of it,of course

I still wouldn't like to meet Bozhidar Dimitrov on the Sofia no. 20 tram (or streetcar - Valeri), as he looks a "bit of a bruiser", to use the London expression to describe somebody rather well-built with an attitude problem.

Aries:

"Gerson von Bleichröder a peddler,
the "ROTHSCHILDS"

Absolutely.

Bleichroder started as Rothshild's money manager in Germany. Interesting that his close associate (the name escapes me - I have to find the book) was doing the same in Vienna. They both ended up financing their governments in their wars against each other - the Prussian-Austria war - as the Austrians contended to unite Germany under their auspices.

Two Jewish friends, financing their respective Germanic countries, to kill each other, while both working [...]

Read the full comment for Rodschild - the roots of extreme Germanic anti-Semitism right there. The irony is that they were probably just being good citizens of their countries and were looking for recognition and acceptance.

Epami,

aren't you glad that we are back on topic?;))

Aries - you have the "melancholy satisfaction of being proved right" yet again ! Yes, Baron Nathan Rothschild indeed made his fortune out of the Napoleonic Wars (no wonder he got a peerage out of it !), though I think there may have been previous successful Rothschild entrepreneurs in England on a rather smaller scale.

Prime Minister Benjamin Disraeli also (I think) had a Rothschild connection either by birth or by marriage. Money breeds power and power breeds money.....

I could name another of the called
"money worshipers"which make of
Gerson von Bleichröder a peddler,
the "ROTHSCHILDS"
the Rothschild fortune was laid during the latter stages of the Napoleonic Wars. From 1813 to 1815, Nathan Mayer Rothschild in London was instrumental in the financing of the British war effort, handling the shipment of bullion to the Duke of Wellington's army in Portugal and Spain

Aries, you are probably right. I can't find the book right now.

The German-American historian Fritz Stern wrote a double-biography of Otto von Bismarck and Gerson von Bleichröder, Gold and Iron: Bismarck, Bleichröder, and the Building of the German Empire
and not Herbert Frankel
sorry!!!

Valeri - thanks (see posting below for my acknowledgement). The book title is a nice pun on Bismarck's policy of "Blut und Eisen" (Blood and Iron).

You might also like the books by Gunter Grass (born in Danzig) which are well translated into English. The last of them -"Crabwise"- describes the sinking of the "Wilhelm Gustloff" in the Baltic in 1945 by a Soviet submarine with the loss of 8000 civilian lives, the world's worst maritime disaster ever. Not a subject for levity, then or now, and Grass's book does it full justice.

[...]

Read the full comment />

Aries - glad you liked the portal. The reporting seems to me to be quite thorough, and reasonably free from political bias. I thought the "Macedonia" item was as objective a summary as I have ever read on this particular thorny issue !

Chancellor Bismarck and Philip of Macedon are an interesting parallel, as you say, but neither Empire lasted very long (as Valeri correctly points out), and both resulted in invasion of their territory by a larger force - Rome in the case of the Hellenic Empire in 146 BC, and the Soviet Union in [...]

Read the full comment the case of Eastern and Central Germany in 1945.

(For the information benefit of others: "Eastern Germany" is East Prussia (Konigsberg/Kaliningrad), Danzig, Pomerania, and Silesia,all except the first now being in Poland. "Central Germany" is Brandenburg, Saxony and Thuringia, which was the German Democratic Republic from 1949 to 1989, confusingly commonly called "East Germany" in the West. So the post-1989 unified Republic of Germany includes all of West Germany, all of Central Germany, but none of the old "Eastern Germany". And, yes, there are still those who want it back.....

Changing subjects totally, EU wine labelling law keeps a lot of lawyers in business, and is the subject of rather more EU Regulations / Kanonismoi than you might think !

An excellent book on the unification of the Germans - Gold and Iron - from Herbert Frankel.

It's about how Bleichroder - a Jewish banker, who actually financed Bismarck's wars and in affect the unification of Germany, under Prussian auspices...
Fascinating irony of history, given that it all led to the destruction of both - German Jewry and Prussia.

Epaminondas
Thanks for the very inte-
resting portal.
Koenisberg ,teutonic knights,
nothern Prussia, Bismarck,
oonce i recalled the name I can dare A PARALLEL OF HIS LEGACY, the unification of the free cities of the Holy German Empire. to Philip and alexander of Mmacedon uniting the grrek "poleis-states" into one nation after the battle of Chainoreia.(ceteris paribus)
Emmanuel Kant and his "Antinomy of Pure Reason" brings back memories
of a student assignement in a Universsity law i was given
About the wine issue,cela ne [...]

Read the full comment porte pas de grandes consequences".

Aries - with reference to my last posting, I have just realised there is a fundamental conflict between EU and UN law about "fYRoM". This relates to wine labelling under EU Regulation / Kanonismos 338/79 and its successors.

There is a successful brand of Macedonian wine on the UK market called "FYROM".

Under EU regulations all letters of the wine name must be in the same type "case" (except for initial capital letters), and all must also be visible within the same "field of vision". So "BORDEAUX" is fine, but "bordEAUX" is [...]

Read the full comment not.

However, under UN Resolutions 223 and 817 of 1993, the type "case" is laid down as follows. Only "fYRoM" is permissible, except at the beginning of a sentence when "FYRoM" is also permissible. (I will leave the French equivalent to one side for the moment, but it doesn't alter the argument.) So under the UN rules, "FYROM" is in breach of the Resolutions.

This is a very interesting legal point, whereby one set of international laws explicitly contradicts another. I wonder what the Ministry in Athens thinks about it ? (Somebody in Brussels is doubtless contemplating EU "Infraction Proceedings" under Article 223 of the Treaty (used to be Article 169) even now....)

Aries - I've tracked down the reference to a speech given yesterday by William Hague, Deputy Leader of the UK Opposition Party, on the subject of Bosnia-Hercegovina and its ongoing problems, which (as he said) threaten a resurgence of the "Bloody Balkans" and jeopardise the EU Accession prospects of Serbia and Montenegro (not Macedonia - he seemed to think that was relatively safe.)

Google gives no less than 812,000 mentions of "Bloody Balkans",but this seems the most appropriate, and is what the Times was referring to (they must have had a pre-speech press release.) "Bloody" of [...]

Read the full comment course in English can also be used as a fairly minor swear-word or imprecation.

I also discovered a very useful URL link to some fairly detailed and objective reporting on Central / Eastern Europe:

http://www.sussexineurope.org/news_2.htm#Macedonia

The link refers to the Macedonia item, but you can scroll up or down to other countries very easily. (The item on Kaliningrad is fascinating !)

By the way, according to UN Resolutions 817/1993 and 225/1993, it is incorrect (and possibly illegal) to refer to FYROM. It must be fYRoM, or in French ERYdM; the UN specifies that lower case letters must be used as indicated.

(This brings us all Back On Topic !)

Aries - I was going from the UK paper edition: the on-line version doesn't give it all. (And it will shortly give even less, now that Rupert Murdoch's News International is imminently going to start charging for online access.) Anyway, I'll find another reference and cut-and-paste it.

Meanwhile, thank the Good Lord for the excellent free online access given by the Sofia Echo and the Sofia Morning News ! (Moderators - please note favourable user feedback).

Another thing Epami:
You gave her enough money for return flight, right?
So that was the problem then, not the criminal record?
If she couldn't be repatriated because of Passport/criminal record issues, (in relation of which you kindly brought up my US passport) then what good the money you gave her would do?
Epami I am getting that feeling (It's a Balkan thing, don't worry about it;) that you let your romantic Polish fantasy run wild among us;)

I still like you;)

Lol, I meant "I owe IT to all the Polish women that I've known" ... not that I owe them....I spell like hell, and it's mostly because my mind goes 100 MPH, and my fingers are not good enough to catch up;)

Epami,
"Once we in Northern Europe can read about "10 items of [Macedonian] folk-wisdom and cultural benefit""

You may think of your folks as "we in northern Europe" but to the Brits you are still "they in Eastern Europe";)
Remember the "Polish plumber" from a few years a go? London Times was fed up with the Poles too, so just be glad that we've replaced you on their shit list;)
You seem intelligent enough to recognize when politicians are scoring domestic points, and publications are creating hysteria to sell papers... [...]

Read the full comment

"...it was in the middle of Sofia in the University quarter, and she was speaking educated Krakow Polish (not that I'm sure you would know the difference !) It rather startled the waitresses, who previously knew me as a fairly inarticulate foreigner who could only speak simple Bulgarian."

Wait! The (Bulgarian) waitress, was impressed by your educated Polish?

"(The technical side was that she still had a "criminal record" under the Jaruzelski / Zhivkov communist regimes, so couldn't get repatriated as easily as Valeriu thinks.."

Something's fishy. No way a Pole was stuck in BG for political reasons in 2005. All she had to do is walk in the Polish embassy and get on the next flight. Even with criminal record, Poland would never abandon her people. Sure as hell, no one kept her by force in BG.

Epami, with all due respect, I think she took you for a ride. The fact that you gave her money is a strong indicator...

"(It must be nice having an Uncle Sam passport and being able to travel wherever you want - not everybody else can.)"

I haven't used it since the last time I visited the States. In every other country that I habitually visit, all I need is my BG ID. And Epami, I have been nothing but very nice to you. I like Polish people. I owe to all the Polish women I've known;)

Epami
I could not Locate "Bloody Balkans" in Times 11/08/2009
online edition. Advise.

Valeriu - quite simple: it was in the middle of Sofia in the University quarter, and she was speaking educated Krakow Polish (not that I'm sure you would know the difference !) It rather startled the waitresses, who previously knew me as a fairly inarticulate foreigner who could only speak simple Bulgarian. (The technical side was that she still had a "criminal record" under the Jaruzelski / Zhivkov communist regimes, so couldn't get repatriated as easily as Valeriu thinks. (It must be nice having an Uncle Sam passport and being able to travel wherever you want - not everybody else [...]

Read the full comment can.)

Aries - it is a fair point that you make, but the rest of Europe genuinely starts developing "invective fatigue" with the Balkans (or, as today's London Times put it, the "bloody Balkans".)

Once we in Northern Europe can read about "10 items of [Macedonian] folk-wisdom and cultural benefit" (for [Macedonian] insert [Greek], [Turkish] etc ), then we will all beging to take you all seriously.
Or, in American, try being friendly for once !

Epami
With all due respect
I would suggest you do get back composed.
I was quoting a Sofia university professors and a respected bulgarian historian's book about "Macedonian issue" or to put it in a broader context "a balkan" issue if you like (google the subject before getting too emotif).
cheer up pal.

Come to think of it, having sex with some one that speaks Polish, didn't take much more effort either.

How do you think I started my brave exploration of the canyons of the Polish language?
Ahhh, the good old days...

Epami:

"Polish political prisoners exiled to Bulgaria in the 1960s (I met one begging in Sofia in 2005, and she was so pleased to find somebody who understood her language.."

You are losing us Epami;) That must've been the dumbest Pole, or she took you for the dumbest Pole - one of them;)

She wondered in BG for six years and couldn't find the Polish embassy? You know what she did with the airfare you gave her right? Epami, you did her liver, no favor at all....
[...]

Read the full comment />
Tell us "her story" please! It sounds interesting, because "finding" some one that speaks Polish in BG, is only a matter of walking 10 meters anywhere at the sea....

Aries - thanks. I must admit that - from his photograph - Bozidar Dimitrov is definitely not the sort of person I would wish to meet on the 20 tram on a dark Sofia night, but then one cannot always judge by appearances.

What do you mean by "10 Lies of the Macedonism " ? It does strike me that no Balkan nation - including Cyprus - is immune from publishing its own 'hate' novel or other form of polemic about a neighbouring state (preferably all of them !) There was a striking Greek Cypriot 'novel' [...]

Read the full comment in English called "The Wolf Has Landed", in which the invading Turks barbecue babies, burn down entire villages, send grandmothers to Istanbul brothels, and do all the other things that a nice, kind invasion force does (just ask the Americans !)

There are similar works of unique European literature in both Macedonias, Greece, Turkey, Bulgaria, and even one in Poland about the fate of Polish political prisoners exiled to Bulgaria in the 1960s (I met one begging in Sofia in 2005, and she was so pleased to find somebody who understood her language that I had three hours of her history. It didn't show pre-1989 Bulgaria in a good light. Anyway, I managed to find enough money to give her enough for a return flight to Warsaw, so my conscience is fairly clear. But there must be thousands of such people still left as the human detruitus of the Cold War, and their plight (frankly) moves me more than does yet another Balkan grandmothers' quarrel along the lines of "10 Macedonian/Greek/Turkish/Albanian/Bulgarian/Transylvanian Lies".

Epaminondas
To put the conversation and debate on correct perspectives.
Bozidar Dimitrov's book titled
The 10 Lies of the Macedonism
10-те Лаги на Македонизмът.
is a good reference for the Fyrom'tsi(valeri's quote).

What "Debt Collection Arizona" may not know is that in Belgium it has been illegal since 1916 to serve or consume any spirit drink in a public place (including Belgium's very numerous cafes and bars, also English-style 'pubs'). They can only be consumed in private clubs, which are night-time only and expensive.

In constrast, in the adjoining Netherlands, all spirits can be served in all bars and cafes, especially many different types of gin ("oude", "jonge", "jenever" etc.)

This means that the market for gin (also vodka and whisky) is radically different [...]

Read the full comment in the two countries, both part of Benelux !
(I think I know of what I speak).

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really? I don't think so.

Aries -

It was served with gin. (I've never liked gin since - I don't even know the French for 'gin': in Dutch it's "Jenever", and in French-speaking Belgium they simply don't drink it .)

Epami
Thanks
i did not know there was a drink
served in Belgrade called "Titotonic"
il n'est jamais tard pour apprendre

Sorry, Aries, he actually wrote "Titotonic", and I'm sure I drank one of those in Belgrade in the 1970s.

The correct English, for what it's worth, appears to be "Titoist"...

Epami
My friend I caught you again trying to "pull one's leg" by commenting on Vasilliev's
otonic"
every body here understood that he meant "Titoic".

This comment has been removed by the moderator because it contained

Alex has rather a good point. This is indeed what the UN Charter says.

You can not tell somebody how to call himself that`s UN right

* (1) Everyone has the right to a nationality.
* (2) No one shall be arbitrarily deprived of his nationality nor denied the right to change his nationality.

Respect That

Jastinian:

"... moron or just a lost gipsy wherever you are."

Don't forget "tatar";)))

This is what the EU will have to work with in due time.

You folks in the West, think that you have hard times civilizing us in BG? ...

I was born in FYR Macedonia and was raised to be the typical citizen in the diaspora: Heavy belief in Ancient Macedoniansm, anti-Bulgarian, pro-Yugoslav, and so on. With my independent thought and research and lot of pride swallowing I've transformmed myself to look at Bulgarians with a different eye and to completely cancel out Ancient Macedonianism fantasy. Our very own Krste P. Misirkov cleared up so many things for me it is incredible. It is NO lie that we've had a Bulgarian identity in the past. It is crystal clear that Alexander spread HELLENISM quite accuratley is the FOUNDER of [...]

Read the full comment the modern Unified Hellenic nation as a whole. For me this is nothing to be proud of, because I have SLAVONIC heritage.

Jastinian - I don't think Valeri was being insulting (a trifle exaggerated, maybe, but that's hardly a sin). Much of what he says about former Jugoslavia (with the exception of Slovenia) is true, though admittedly Macedonia avoided bloodshed too, probably mainly by good luck.

However, when he says:

<<Personal insults, confused mixture of genetics, nationality and ethnicity, served with a liberal stew of sticky history... that's what got you guys over in Yugoslavia to kill each other for a decade>>.....

.....if you substitute "Greece" for "Yugoslavia" and "three [...]

Read the full comment years" for a "decade", you have the exact history of the Greek Civil War 1946-49.

Valeri....Do you read your comments? You don't do a personal insults. You only insult all nation and the ethnic groups in it, so what does that make you? HIPPOCRATIC moron or just a lost gipsy wherever you are.

This is all beginning to remind me of the "declining conjugation" verb:

> I am a patriot
> You (sing.) are a nationalist
> He is a racist
> She is a racist bigot
> We are fascists
> You (pl.) are freedom-fighters
> They are fighting a civil war.

*EU HOLE on the map, not whole.

Jastian:

"Valeri ... You are an idiot ! and not educated one to . Check Iginas genetic dna findings .."



This is a perfect illustration of what I am talking about.

Personal insults, confused mixture of genetics, nationality and ethnicity, served with a liberal stew of sticky history... that's what got you guys over in Yugoslavia to kill each other for a decade, and still keeps you as the EU whole on the map.

Epami, as a rule I exclude [...]

Read the full comment the Slovenians because they seem to be the only one in the dysfunctional union of YU with half of IQ.

Vasiliev - I am not sure what "Titotonic" means in English (unless it's a new brand of soft drink), but you might wish to re-express yourself in clearer and less emotive language in order to be more widely understood.

(Autrement dit : nobody else knows what you mean !)

you see, see the truth you can whinge and create fakes like OMO but in the end it was Bulgarians who layed down their lives at the Ilinden Uprising and not this 1945 titotonic fabrication trying to steal our Ilinden. Yes, see the truth, you can lay wreaths, and heroise our brave ancestors but as Delcev said "first and foremost we are Bulgarians" and together with all the other ethnic people (Serbians, Vlachs, Greeks, Albanians - What! NO Yugis) who live in Macedonia, as Macedonians we can overcome the Turkish oppressor. One day you will remember that the first mother [...]

Read the full comment milk you drank was from your Bulgarian Mother and not these brainwashed creations of a titotonic fascist cloaked in leftist paraphernalia......
Wake up today, tommorrow you might have to wash your clothes in OMO....

Valeri - one minor correction. You said:

<< If you weren't so ethnically/nationalistic minded (like the typical Yugoslav actually) you would've been in NATO and the EU long a go, but then again - the same goes for the rest of the hard heads in the former Yugoslavia.>>

But Slovenia is a former Jugoslav republic. And Slovenia has been in both the EU and NATO for some years. So your statement is not entirely true.

Valeri ... You are an idiot ! and not educated one to . Check Iginas genetic dna findings before you insulting the Macedonians . They are the indigenous people of Macedonia. Read history you may find out what you rely are..

There is no helping them.
I had a few Serb colleagues in the States and every conversation invariable circled back to nationality and history.
You'd never see Bulgarians waste their time with that every day - thank God!

In 1989, the Yugoslavs were in such a great position to be a full scale EU entity by now - collectively or separate like the Czech and Slovaks - were they half smart....
Noo - they had to figure out who's what and so on, killed 1/4 million of their neighbors, and [...]

Read the full comment are still the black sheep of Europe.

I know my FYROM-ski friends will understand this:
"Ум умува, ум слугува, ум патки пасе";))

Thank you Valeri for your last post - nicely put.

Steve, you said from 1945 onwards there were around 200,000 macedonians in Pirin Macedonia. What about before 1945? =) I think, there was no macedonians before that, no? They were invented around that time, along with their language (grammar rather) and history. And worse than even Kosovo, their history is still not recognized by the world. Except for the ex-Yugo republics.

Thank you for making my point Steve!

"And now macedonia didnt get its independance in 1912/1913 but instead was split between serbia/greece and bulgaria the serb part is whats now republic of macedonia the bulgarian part is pirin and is still part of bulgaria but the bulgarians dont recongnize the macedonians there."

You people keep posting on Bulgarian and Greek forums that most of your country is effectively occupied by us, and then you wonder why the Greeks block you from using the name!

If you weren't so [...]

Read the full comment ethnically/nationalistic minded (like the typical Yugoslav actually) you would've been in NATO and the EU long a go, but then again - the same goes for the rest of the hard heads in the former Yugoslavia.

We have Makedonians, and Turks, and others in BG but they are all Bulgarian nationals to us. We don't think like you.

That is my issue with Yugoslavs in general - who cares!

Keep your mouth shot, and before you know it, the border between BG, Greece and FYROM will come down and then you can go live in Pirin (if you can find room from the Brits) or Greek Makedonia or anywhere the hell you please!

Shake the mentality people!





P.S.

Oh, and the war would've gotten to Makedonia if it wasn't for the American involvement.

Things were going that way.

To Valeri and Vasiliev, I do believe that you are Greeks and not Bulgarians as the same verbal abuse comes from your mouths as my Greek friends. Instead of having a enlightened discussion only hate and bigotry comes out. If your truly a European, you would accept Macedonians as who they are, just as Europe has accepted your people.

@valeri
The yugoslav civil war was mostley between serbs/croats and bosniaks and albanians in kosovo not in the other regions

And now macedonia didnt get its independance in 1912/1913 but instead was split between serbia/greece and bulgaria the serb part is whats now republic of macedonia the bulgarian part is pirin and is still part of bulgaria but the bulgarians dont recongnize the macedonians there.
Because they claim that macedonians are the same as bulgarians. (i say thats crap)
are danish and dutch people German??
or Ukrainians are [...]

Read the full comment Russians??
its the same

and why were there from
1945 until 1955
200.000+ macedonians in bulgaria??
and from 1955 until now not even 10.000

Jastinian,

some of my best Bulgarian friends are makedonians.

I have nothing against you there in the former Yugoslavia except your mentality which is over nationalistic.
This is why you ended up killing so many of each other in the 90's. We want none of it.

If you want to be in the EU and be a part of civilized Europe, you have to understand one thing: It doesn't matter what you call yourself, and what country you are in, because there will be no borders [...]

Read the full comment or restrictions for you to move or associate yourself with whom ever you'd like!
I have property in different countries and I care about every country I have anything to do with. I am not Bulgarian, only, but European.
Look at how many Brits live in Bulgaria!
I have no right to tell them to leave, nor would I like to!
It's their country too, because they too are European!
This is what EU means, and until you get that through your Yugoslav heads, and stop spamming every Bulgarian news forum, I will continue to make fun of you, because it's easy;)

When OMO-Ilinden first started using a washing detergent name I counldn't get my head around why they would steal such a world renowned name like OMO. But then it occured to me. Ajax was an ancient Greek warrior and stealing one ancient name should be enough. At least OMO gives a could clean first time every time. Happy Bulgarian Ilinden to all my brothers from sofia to ohrid.....

To Valeri..You are nasty and full of hate towards the Macedonian people ,I wonder why?bat then again this is bulgarian site... that's why the editor lets you whit all the crap you dish out .......

For all the FYROM - tsi here:
You want prove why leaving you alone in not an option for BG?

You very presence here is the prove!

Every Bulgarian news forum, every Bulgarian U-tube song - full of swarming макета attacking BG!
If we leave you alone or support you, it's only a mater of time before you bring your malignant Yugoslav ethnic/nationalistic mentality to our doorstep and start steering trouble...

I didn't say that I have any "moral" point.
Lets leave morality talk to the Americans - they love this crap!

I listen to FROY-tsi and hear about your Pirin aspirations, I see the hate and the pretension of everything Bulgarian that resembles yours is "stolen"
You are full of that Yugoslav ethnic hate and we should not give you and inch.
No accident you people killed each other to the tune of 250,000 in the 90's.
All you can talk about is ethnicity and heritage. Strange folk... [...]

Read the full comment

To Valeri, What name are the Greeks guarding theirs or Macedonia? The Greeks were not the indigenous people of their country and the Bulgarins of theirs, so what gives you the right to tell Macedonians who they are? You think you stand on some moral ground but read your history first properly and you'll find out your just as racist and ill informd as your Greek friends.

Thank you, Epaminondas for further developing my point. (And for your remark on how to spell the adjective of Moldova).

Well, as we all know, Austrian German differs from Hoch Deutch, just as French in Belgium and Canada differs from French in France, and just as American English differs from British English to name a few.

Macedonian Bulgarian also differs from "Hoch Bulgarian" I agree.

Now do you see the point of my previous post. Yes, there is Macedonian language - and the correct way to describe it [...]

Read the full comment is Macedonian Bulgarian.

Yours, Alex the "Great" with an "y"

to Aexander Velikiy -

Sorry to have a second bite at the proverbial cherry, but you are wrong on several counts.

Austrian German (and its pronounciation) is pretty different from HochDeutsch German, especially as regards the letters "v" and "W" (unfortunately, Slovene has inherited the same characteristic !) Most of the common expressions are different too.

This is also true of Belgium (Francophone) and France. (Just ask in Paris for septante-cinq grammes of anything !)

Moldovans (not Moldovians) speak Romanian (Moldovanesc) with a strong [...]

Read the full comment regional / Russian accent that many Romanians cannot understand. However, their Russian is perfectly comprehensible to anyone else from the former USSR.

As for English and American, words fail me....the two versions of English have now grown so far apart that even everyday speech can be hard to understand, while the business vocabulary in both countries has diverged so far as to be incomprehensible one to another.

French Canada is another example, where "le francais canadien" would be completely incomprehensible to a Parisian, and even to a Bruxellois.

As regards the ethnicity of present-day Greece, Jon had a very good point. The recent iGenia study (just Google this name and you'll get it) identified that some 85% of the present Greek population is either Slavic or Illyrian in origin. So much for national mythology !

This rather demolishes Igor's arguments. Meanwhile, what Stamos says seems to be very sensible and pragmatic, and I suggest we all think about his words.

Interesting to see idiocy isn't limited to my own country. Why on earth does a separate nation state have to justify its existence to neighbors?

Do we Greeks have to explain why we can call ourselves Greek - despite our many backgrounds? How about we leave the fYRoMians alone and concentrate on government corruption and our bad economy?

And how did I forget to mention..
What about Tzar Samuel and those other Bulgarians?
What about that?

The funny part with the newly self babtized 'Macedonians' is their persistance in trying to convince the world that they are the decendants of the ancients.
In that, they found the Greeks who rise up to defend their heritage,
from a bunch of thugs,(Gruevsky and gang) and against a suspect, hostile propaganda effort that is showing up more and more..

The people, who follow Gruevski and gang, are the only ones that believe in this 'ancient conection'.
For they are the victims of the internal propaganda.
We have [...]

Read the full comment seen Gods talking to Macedonians, we have seen political adverts with Alexander(the Megas) in them,
we have seen posters and government sponsored events,
all around the 'macedonian identity'.
Gruevski and gang, are slowly, and quite effectively, are watering the seeds, and more and more people have grown up, brainwashed from the internal media.
I remind that with Visas needed to go to any country, people in the former Yugoslav Republic, are not very familiar with what is going on around them. Europe, the World.
Add to that a 33% illiteracy rate,
their Yugoslav, communist past,
we can get a small idea of what a confused place this must be.

1: Gruevski and gang must stop the 'antiquization' propaganda to its people.
2: FYROM: A nation being built,
on the wrong foundations.

Do Austrians have a different ethnicity from the Germans, and do they speak Austrian, or German?!

Are Kosovars not Albanians?

Are Moldovians different in ethnicity and language from Romania.

Do Icelanders speak Icelandic and are they a separate ethnic group, or are we talking about Norway.

And most of all, do US Americans speak English or American.

Its all a play of words, and the way it is put. Truth is one, and no matter how you construct the sentence [...]

Read the full comment and what words you chose to use or to spare, it all leads to the same truth - some cannot live with it and don't want to. Well the generations after them will little by little realise it.

Lastly, has anyone had the idea of making a DNA analysis* of Macedonians, and prove they are not Greeks, so we have it on paper. What about prove that they are not deeply related to Bulgarians? There is time for that too - it will all come.

Such an analysis was already performed among most of the people of Iceland, and it showed they are 99.9% Norwegians. Well, they knew it themselves... others soon "learn about" their origins too.

It's as if Bulgarians were claiming they are from Thrace, and Romanians were claiming they are old Romans.

As long as the "Macedonian question" remains only on the Balkans, it will not be heard, nor well understood, because this little country cannot bother anyone's attention.

It is good that Greece put the question to a higher instance, and I believe Bulgarians must try to follow this example.

After all, world history has always been on the right side (the side of the truth). Of course, there are tiny [...]

Read the full comment exceptions in tiny Macedonia (nothing offensive concerning the size of the country though).

[From the Vatican manuscript of Cardinal Mai: §2] The Sibylline books induced the Romans to make war against Philip by these lines: "The Macedonians boast their descent from Argive kings. Philip will be the arbiter of weal or woe to you. The elder of that name shall give rulers to cities and peoples, but the younger shall lose every honor, and shall die the subject of a western race."

[Although the Romans sent troops across the Adriatic Sea, the war against Philip was one burden too much. Fortunately for Rome, many Greek [...]

Read the full comment towns detested the power of Macedonia, and in 212, Rome allied itself to the Aetolian League. The war continued.]

THE GREEKS ARE GREEKS AND CAN NOT BE COMON WITH MACEDONIANS.
FALCE GREEK HISTORY ...

[From Constantine Porphyrogenitus, The Embassies:§3] [208] Ambassadors from Ptolemy [IV Philopator], king of Egypt, and with them others from Chios and Mitylene, and from Amynander, king of the Athamanes, assembled at two different times at the place where the Aetolians were accustomed to call their cities together for consultation, to compose the differences between the Romans, the Aetolians, and Philip. But as [the Roman commander Publius] Sulpicius [Galba] said that it was not in his power to conclude peace, and wrote privately to the Senate that it was for the advantage of the Romans that the Aetolians should continue the [...]

Read the full comment war against Philip, the Senate forbade the treaty and sent 10,000 foot and 1,000 horse to assist the Aetolians.

With their help the Aetolians took Ambracia, which Philip recovered, not long afterward, on their departure. Again the ambassadors assembled and said that it was very evident that Philip and the Aetolians, by their differences, were subjecting the Greeks to servitude to the Romans, because they were accustoming the latter to make frequent attempts upon Greece. When Sulpicius rose to reply to them the crowd would not hear him, but shouted that the ambassadors had told the truth.

"See the Truth" has a good point, so it's worth reading and thinking about what he says. Also, Alexander Megas/Megalos (which is the correct Greek form ?) is mentioned in the Jewish Talmud (the most sacred of Jewish Holy Scripture) as being a "Righteous Gentile" (there is a rumour that he subsequently converted to Judaism, but that may be hearsay. Except it is mentioned as authoritative on the Zionist University of Jerusalem website.

I think I should end this posting by wishing everybody "le c'haim" and "mazel tov"...I am sure Alexander would have understood.

"See the..."
We comment because you people keep talking about your "Pirin Makedonian brothers", so it looks as though the Greeks are right to guard their name - before long you'll start talking about your "Greek Macedonian brothers" and so on.
You are a mixture of slavs and Valahs with increasing majority Albanians.
Deal with it.
I have to deal with you people posting after every BG folk song on U-tube "stolen from Makedonia!!!" and so forth;)

If Valeri and Bulgarin can't be bothered with our Macedonian problems, then why are you commenting(foolishly) at all!! As such you must be Greek because you go by the Grek motto of insult, belittle and deny!!

Why do you Greeks always refer to ancient times, is that all you have in your pitiful existence to rely on. Yes Macedonia was a nation in ancient times and is one now, so go choke on that, and stop relying on the Greek inscription theory since it was the only written language of the area at the time makes it irrelevant. As for Alexander the Great spreading Greek culture, he did so because he was half Greek and because of his Greek tutors(Aristotle) enarmoured him with the idea of everything Greek was wonderful. But as soon as he discovered [...]

Read the full comment the Persians had a superior culture, he changed quickly to their culture and tried to spread it, but was killed before he could implement the idea. P.S. Would you Bulgarians stop trying to link Macedonians to your people, we are different, we feel different and we act different. Don't act like the Greeks just because of some pipeline deal!

Listen some ignorants!

1. Ancient Macedonians were ancient Bulgarians, and the word Macedon was ancient Bulgarian.

•Joan Malala (Byzantine source) wrote in the VI century about the Troyan war: “And Achilles departed with the Artidies, […] army of 3000 people, who were called Mirmidons at this time, and now are called Bulgarians” (Mirmidons were from Epirus and Thessalia, and Thraco-Illyrians. We are talking here BC, not AD. This was brotherly war between BUlgarians).

•According to Magnus Felix Ennodius (473-521) Bulgarians are Old Thraco-Ilyrians.

2. [...]

Read the full comment There exist no imaginary Slavs!

•On the map, kept in British museum, created in 4th century by St. Jerome (331-420) it is written the name of Bulgarian lands in ancient times “Misia hec et Vulgaria” (Misia, namely Bulgaria / Misia, here is Bulgaria). This map was created on basis of older maps by Eusebius of Caesarea (270-338) called “Father of the Church history”. (There was already Bulgaria on Balkans, as a Province, 500 years before Khan Asparukhs Bulgarians came to Moesia – the official date for these “newcomers”. There existed NO Slavs on Balkan during that time, and NO Slavs absorbed Bulgarian Thracians – the official FAKE invented school history).

Jordanes and Comes Marcelinus called Bulgarians “Illyrians”, but Ennodius called them now simply “Bulgarians”. Calling them Bulgarians, Ennodius confirmed what was written by previous and older author, Jeronim, about Moesia – calling “Misia” Bulgaria.

•The Chronograph of Momsen in 345 AD mentions the name Bulgarians, who have lived on the modern Bulgarian territories (Hence long time before Khan Asparukhs Bulgar newcomers came to Bulgaria, and before “Slavs” came to Balkan).

•Mavro Obrini gives information of Mark Avreliy Cassidorius, that Bulgarians have fought against the Romans about 390 AD.

Johan of Antihony wrote in 482 that Ostgots had attacked the Danube Byzantine provinces and emperor Zenon was forced to search support from the local population […] the so called Bulgarians (Hence LOCAL!)

•Enodius of Titsan (473 - 524) wrote that “…Bulgarians are old Moesian or Illyrian people” (Hence OLD!)

•Anonymous Ravenna Cosmograph (VI-VII) informs that ages before 375-376 South of the Danube river “…in Moesia, Thrace and Macedonia live only Bulgarians” (Hence ONLY!)

•Cassidorius Marcus Aurelius (468-557) says also that Bulgarians are old Moesian (Thracian) or Illyrian people. He also mentioned that Bulgarians populated the lands near Danube and Pannonia (Hungary) in the 5th century.

3. There exist no Slavic language!

•In A short life of Climent by Dimiter Homatian (Archbishop of Ohrid from 1216 to about 1234) we can read following: “On this same day, June 27, in memory of our saintly Archbishop and miracle working Climent, Bishop of Bulgaria in Ohrid […] This great priest and enlightener of Bulgaria was a native of European Moesia, the people of which are usually known to be Bulgarians […]

It says bishop of Bulgaria - not Slavia!!!

Climent was raised to the bishop´s throne when Methodius made him the bishop of the whole of Illyria and of the Bulgarian people, who were predominant in the country […]

It says Bulgarian people and predominant. NOT SLAVS!!!!!!!!!!!!

SO STOP SPREADING OLD RUSOPHIL PROPAGANDA!

I think Phillipos misunderstands the nature of pre-feudal ancient society.

There was a governing class (or 'oligarchy' to use the Greek term), and there was a 'helot' class (another Greek term !) who did all the work, acted as servants to the governing class, and fought in the army as necessary as foot-soldiers.

This structure was almost universal in the ancient world, but what is often forgotten is that the governing class and the 'helot' class were often quite ethnically different.

What evidence we have from ancient Macedonia [...]

Read the full comment strongly suggests that this was the case there. The governing class were Hellenistic (opinion seems to differ as to just how Hellenic they really were, but they used the Greek language amongst themselves; hence the various "Greek" artefacts that archaeologists find there.)

In contrast, the 'helot' class were almost certainly native Illyrians, who would not have spoken Greek, and who very probably did not have a written alphabet. (This accords with accounts of Alexander and his generals addressing his foot-soldiers in "Macedonian", i.e. Illyric.)

So therefore the fact that the only written artefacts that archaeologists find in Macedonia are in Greek does NOT indicate that the bulk of the population were Greek of Hellenic. What it DOES indicate is that the governing class were. (Which we knew all along).

QED

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Pece,
truly, this is a good point:
Never mind what you were told at school by your Serb masters back in Yugoslavia:
to the world, you folks building a statue of Alexander right in front of your one airport, is a preposterous as if the Turks build one of Caesar!
The logic is identical: They are physically in possession of the Eastern Roman Empire - the heir of Rome, so, technically they are the heir of the heir of Rome.
Therefore Turkey is the New Rome! Like that?
[...]

Read the full comment That's how silly your Грандомания (it's the same in FYROM-ski right?;) is....

Peace, no one here gives a hoot about what you think you are.
The Greeks are pissed because you guys are appropriating the name of Macedonia, to which you have about as much connection as the Turks to Byzantium, and by extension to Rome.

Most of us, - as "the Bulgarian" said, don't care. We have enough problems without you.

Relax and have a few babies before you all there start speaking Albanian, because that's where things are going for you, you understand that right?
We are your [...]

Read the full comment least problem fyi;)

How is it that Bulgarians, Greeks and Serbs can tell me who i am? I was 100% sure i was Macedonian the last time i looked.

i mis-spelt ancient. anyhow, the point i am trying to make is we have enough problems here in this corrupt country, to be bothered with your problems. why dont you greeks and 'macedonians' sit together, have a drink or five, and talk it through?

please show me an ancient macedonian plaque written in Slavic Jon, because i can show you hundreds written in Greek.

for the record: Anciend Macedonia was a greek tribe, state, civilisation, call it whatever you like. they were greeks, nothing else. simple.

present macedonia is slavic, and predominantly, Bulgarian

and lastly, we Bulgarians, dont give a shit about either type of macedonia. so you people (greeks and 'macedonians') can all bugger off, for all we care.

thank you and have a good day.

Ancient Macedonians were definitely not Greek ethnically or linguistically. But modern Macedonians have about the same relation to Alexander the Great and his people as the Bulgarians do to the Thracians.

The Balkans were inundated with Slavs in the sixth century or so. Bulgaria and Macedonia were the areas these Slavs were unified into a state by the proto-Bulgars, which is why they can now be considered the same nation.

This fact was accepted for centuries until the Yugoslavs came up with a new strategy for detaching Macedonia from the rest of [...]

Read the full comment Bulgaria, the creation of a new nationality and language, in the middle of the twentieth century! Anyone who believes Macedonianism is more than the result of politics is a fool.

I am not wrong...what is so Slavic about ancient Macedonia? Did they spread the Slavic culture? No, they spread the Hellenic culture...the Greek culture.

You are very wrong, Alex. Check the latest iGenea study please.

Wake up people! These people living in "Macedonia" are Bulgarians, Slavs, and Albanians! They have no connection with the ancient Macedonians and therefore have no right to claim a Macedonian identity! These people speak a dialect of Bulgarian...the ancient Macedonians were GREEK!