Sorry to post again in quick succession, but I only now discover that "Ancient History Has Been Re-written" as regards the Battle of the Teutoburg Forest in AD 6.

It's a complete re-write: apparently the battle now took place in AD 9, not AD 6, and didn't take place in the Teutoburg Forest at all, but 30 km to the north.

This all occurred because a British amateur archaeologist took a metal detector round the area in 1987, and found large amounts of buried Roman armour on the new site, not the old. He told the German archaeological establishment, and a very thorough 'dig' took place on the new site.

The Germans confirmed that the new site was indeed the site of the battle, not the old site, and they re-dated it to AD 9.

There is a slight problem in that there is a very large monument to the battle on the old site, built in 1887 by one of the Kaisers, plus a hotel and tourist complex, and these cannot be moved. However, the practical Germans have arranged minibuses to ferry visitors to the new site, to be replaced by a rural tramline if visitor numbers justify it.

(Now just imagine this happening in Macedonia, especially if the new site is just over the Greek/Macedonian border ! But this topical example from Germany shows that (a) it can happen, and (b) Ancient History is not quite as fixed as we all thought. So perhaps there is a thought for Karamanlis to dwell on....)

Sorry - I should have made it clearer that it is the Jewish diaspora/dispersal in AD 70 that I was talling about. Any Rabbi can tell you a great deal more about how the Children of Israel fared after AD 70 with all their tribulations and sorrows.....until the founding of the State of Israel in 1948. Shalom alachem !

Scipio - how wrong you are about the Romans and "ethnic cleansing" !

Quite apart from the follow-up to the Fourth Macedonian War in 146 BC, in which ethnic Macedonians were deported elsewhere and replaced by Thracians, you need only look at the follow-up to the Punic Wars and the destruction of Carthage, with the land covered with salt by the Romans to ensure that nothing would ever grow again, plus the massacre of German slaves after the Battle of Teutoburg Forest (Teutoburgerwald) in AD 6, which the Romans lost with rather a bad grace.

Plus the massacres at the end of Caesar's Gallic Wars, plus the destruction of the Jewish redoubt at Masada in Israel in AD 70 and the subsequent dispersal / diaspora in AD 70 - do I need to
continue ?

You Greeks certain ly have some very selective history books, which the rest of us in the EU do not share.....

Romans did not have the habit of ethnic cleansing.

Yes - but what about the 2000 years of intervening history ? By the time of the end of the Fourth Macedonian War in 146 BC, there were very few Greeks left in Macedonia, as the Romans did a bit of ethnic cleansing themselves. And so it remained until the Slav tribes moved in around 500 AD.

Aristotle, I think you missed the point. Identity and Karamanlis was making the obvious historical fact that Μακεδονια has been Greek for over 3000 years now, way before the Roman Empire. The citizens then spoke Greek, wrote Greek and worshiped Greek Gods. The new state of FYROM has no connection with the Golden Greek Classic Age.

Cer i'giachwi i bob Sais ("don't trust the English", yn Cymraeg.)

Garedig iawn i bawb

Oh David, when will you learn that the world is more concerned about money and life then your poor little Skopje?

Yes this is a bulgarian site old man so what are you doing on it? Have you forgotten that after a time people stopped reading Peter's post? What's that I hear? The curtain is drawing and you fool yourself thinking that anyone cares what you post anymore. Maybe you should do a youtube video or write an article for a newspaper like ristov to get some readers

Lucy - this is a Bulgarian site, and Bulgaria (unlike Greece) is a democracy representing all its peoples and minorities, notably Bulgarians of Turkish origin.

So, with respect, I am quite entitled to express a view about Greece and its iniquities, not to mention "detestable enormities". I doubt, however, that I would have such freedom / eleftheria to do so on a Greek site !

Greg - A lot of water flowed under the bridge between Classical Greece and Modern Greece, especially after the final conquest of Macedonia by the Romans in 146 BC, when Macedonia became a series of Roman provinces, with Thracians sent in to re-settle the place.

At one point (between 500 and 700 AD) when the Slavs arrived to form the "Bulgarian Empire", the Romans even switched the name "Macedonia" to describe Eastern Thrace (today's Plovdiv region in Bulgaria). So the "3000 year continuity" argument is lost.

The obvious solution is to re-use the names used under the later Roman Empire (very respectable, and everybody accepts the legitimacy of the old "Imperium Romanum"). These were:

- Macedonia Prima (corresponding to today's Greek province of Macedonia)
- Macedonia Salutaris (later Secunda) (corresponding to today's Republic of Macedonia, or FYROM as crossword addicts call it.)

Translation - "salutaris" means 'health-giving', as in the Catholic hymn "O Salutaris Hostia" . "Prima" means 'first', as any fule kno, which should keep the Greeks happy (if anything ever will !)

Hope this is helpful - this site needs a bit of positive "spin" sometimes to drag it out of endless Balkan quarrels.

By the way, "FYROM" is not without classical culture - look at the ampitheatre and Roman baths at Stobi, dating from 197 BC., and well preserved despite the occasional earthquake to which the whole region is prone.

Now David, seriously what are you still doing on this site? If you think those Skopjans are going to build a statue of you for fighting for their cause then you're fooling yourself. After all, you are not Greek and therefore no use to their fake identity.

David, you ignore the fact that the Slavs were not in the Macedonian region during the Roman empire until the Medieval Ages...in fact the Arabs arrived in Spain before the Slavs came to the balkans!

Yes history cannot be rewritten and I doubt the Greek PM regrets saying it.

Let's be realistic David, conquerors have passed through Greece from the Crusaders to the Turks and not one of them were successful in dehellenising our nation. So what makes an old man like you think that you will be successful?

Identity - you ignore the historical fact that under the Roman Empire there were two Macedonias, not one (Macedonia Prima and Macedonia Salutaris); Prima was more or less today's Greek Province, and Salutaris (means "health-giving") more or less today's Republic of Macedonia.

As Karamanlis said: "history cannot be re-written", and this is well-recorded history. (Karamanlis may regret having said that, but that's his problem.)

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Aristotle
below is a maxim governing international law
If the constitution
stipulates the idea of one nation -one state it is difficult to find any justification for
differentiation in favour of minority groups and to adopt special laws in this regard. In
conformity with the unitary and national character of the state, in all these countries only
one official language is accepted: that of the majority. Therefore, the 'nation – state’
constitutional concept determines the position of the minority languages within the
overall legislation .
That applies to Greece and all written Statute Constitutions
which are under this category.
in a pleiada of cases and regarding
a pleiada of nations.
By the way thanks on the behalf of
Julius

Aries has a point - where ARE Julius' posts, which were always more informative than argumentative ?

Tue, Jul 07 2009 22:50 CET

To whom it may concern
Where in the hrll are the best and scholarly posts about early Byzantine empire written by a certain Julius.

Guess who's back!! - this is the most recent (2009)UNHCR report highly critical of Greek government policy on Macedonia (paragraphs 40-49 refer):

http://www.unhcr.org/refworld/pdfid/49b7b2e52.pdf

As they say, put that in your pipe and smoke it !

We dont need statues in Greece. We have much bigger and interested projects like pipelines...

John -

That last point of yours about opposition to erecting a statue of Alexander in Athens is a very good one - can you tell us more ?

Thanks - efkharisto - blagodariya -merci

What does Aristotle have to do with any of this? And more to the point what is your point?
My teachers have been French, English, Australian, American, Romanian among others...
What exactly does mentioning Alexander the Great's teachers background prove? Nothing.

How many Greeks in Alexander's army? That's right around 5,000 to the 30,000 Macedonians, the Macedonians who were spoken to in Macedonian not Greek. And the many more Greeks who fought against Alexander. Athens' enemy, conqueror elevated to national hero of the fabricated modern nation-state, some would call that irony.

How bout the Greek professors who objected to an Alexander the Great statue being erected in Athens due to the fact Alexander was a foreign conqueror...

Identity,

Don't know where you get your facts but Macedonians are not at all confused as to what we are. Least of which Albanian.

Aristotle (384 BC – 322 BC) was a Greek philosopher, a student of Plato and teacher of Alexander the Great. He wrote on many subjects, including physics, metaphysics, poetry, theater, music, logic, rhetoric, politics, government, ethics, biology and zoology.

to JS - don't be silly; the crime of "cultural genocide" doesn't exist. If you really want to go into the history of the Macedonian region for some real genocide, try the Greek Civil War 1946-49. I'm afraid the Greeks weren't exactly innocent there: 10% of the entire population of Greece was killed, and of that a rather high proportion was in (Greek) Macedonia. A bit of a case of "When Greek Meets Greek", really.

The obvious solution is to re-use the names used under the later Roman Empire (very respectable, and everybody accepts the legitimacy of the old "Imperium Romanum"). These were:

- Macedonia Prima (corresponding to today's Greek province of Macedonia)
- Macedonia Salutaris (later Secunda) (corresponding to today's Republic of Macedonia, or FYROM as crossword addicts call it.)

For the benefit of those less schooled in Latin than myself, "salutaris" means 'health-giving', as in the Catholic hymn "O Salutaris Hostia"

Hope this is helpful - this site needs a bit of positive "spin" sometimes to drag it out of endless recriminations.

By the way, "FYROM" is not without classical culture - look at the ampitheatre and Roman baths at Stobi, dating from 197 BC.

Liam, the issue hear is more than the name Macedonia. The newly independant state of FYROM has no real identity or history. In actual fact, they themselves are confused as to whether they are Albanian, Bulgarian or Slavic. By claiming tittle to Macedonia they inherit a rich Greek History, motivation for territorial claims for the lucrative port of Thessaloniki and propanga to brainwash the culture diverse FYROM citizens they are Macedonias and not Albanians or Bulgarians. In this case, Identity does matter. It also provides people with indifferent views on the subject, like yourself, with information to make a informed view.

If the next stage fails Greece can take FYROM to human rights courts for cultural genocide. Then the historical atrocities they (Fake Macedonians) will come out and they will look bad. Take a look in 1950 the speeches Harry Truman made about the Child abductions the Fake Macedonians made. I'm sure FYROM will not want people to know about that or how about the rounding up of Salonica Jews by FYROM occuppiers during ww2....

Does anyone really care what name a country gives itself? I come from a place sometimes known as Ireland, or Northern Ireland, or Ulster, or The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Norther Ireland (personally I refer to it as the New Orange Free State)- but so what? I know who I am and where I am from!
A suggestion

how about one can be Macedonia
and the other Makedonia
they can toss a coin for who is which

Liam