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Under my other name of Gandalf, I seem to recognise Olorin's statement from the "Lord of the Rings".....well said, Aries.

"Olórin was my name in my youth in the West that is forgotten"

Well, Julius has a point - where ARE these posts ? They added light rather than heat, after all, which is what constructive blogging is all about.

To whom it may concern
Where in the hrll are the best and scholarly posts about early Byzantine empire written by a certain Julius.

Just a thought to everyone:

One solution is to re-use the two Macedonian names used under the later Roman Empire (which at least gives a good objective precedent!). These were:

- Macedonia Prima (corresponding to today's Greek province of Macedonia)
- Macedonia Salutaris (later Secunda) (corresponding to today's Republic of Macedonia, or FYROM as crossword addicts call it.)

FYI, "salutaris" means 'health-giving', as in the Catholic hymn "O Salutaris Hostia"

Hope this is helpful.

By the way, "FYROM" [...]

Read the full comment is not entirely without classical culture - look at the ampitheatre and Roman baths at Stobi, dating from 197 BC. Stobi was the capital of "Macedonia Salutaris", and is close to Veles in today's Republic of Macedonia. Probably worth a visit / "vaut le detour", though I am not sure whether it has a Michelin-starred restaurant or not (probably not !)

Julius - "Rayoni" are still used in the Baltic States, but not "Oblasti". The Rayon is significantly smaller, and normally (in Russia) 10 or 12 of them make up one Oblast. "Municipality" in Russian is "Gorod".

Presumably Bulgarian acquired this terminology from Russia some centuries ago. I can't recall any example of Russia ever importing any terminology from Bulgaria, though it does have some interesting borrowings from German (like "putsch" for example. where we would say "coup d'etat".)

Aristotle
Yes "Област" is the corect word in Bulgarian,it must mean the same in Russian,for District,Departement
Район is something like "Municipality" (size criteria)
Sector by rather define it better
Rayon in French

Julius -

to complete the picture:

- Voivodship (wojewodstwo) in Poland (the Voivod used to be the local lord with power to recruit troops from his area)

- 'Oblast' in Russia (a word also used in English), as a large rural
administrative area divided into smaller "rayoni" or 'rayons'. The Oblast is normally named after the main town/city in its area. This throws up the anomaly that St Petersburg is still in the "Leningradskaya Oblast" ! (They forgot to change the name back in 1990 ! [...]

Read the full comment Anyway, the country people still prefer the name "Leningrad" !)

And apparently (according to the map of the Byzantine empire in 1025 which forms part of the URL you sent):"Themas o Provinicias" in Spanish.

Two things puzzle me about that map and the accompanying article:

(1) Macedonia and Hellas are separate "themas".

(2) "Macedonia" seems to have moved to Eastern Thrace (today's Plovdiv region in Bulgaria). Why ?
(This is not very consistent with the "historical continuity" argument in the Name Dispute !)
Today's Macedonia(s) on the map - both of them - are [...]

Read the full comment marked as "Bulgaria", though Thessaloniki is correctly shown as retaining its coastal strip.

Intriguing........

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Many thanks for the explanation, Julius - I shall have some interested questions in due course about the material you sent via the URL, but meanwhile the "themes" you mention seem equivalent to 'military district' in the UK, and 'bezirk (plural: bezirken) is the exact equivalent in German (though curiously only used in East Germany and Austria, not in West Germany).

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Julius - Many thanks for this compendious and authoritative summary: it really deserves a better "home" than just a posting on this ephemeral site.

Just one question: I had heard of Basil II the Bulgar-Slayer (so, I imagine, have most Bulgarians !), but not Basil I the Macedonian, from the "Macedonian Theme". Since this thread relates (originally!) to Macedonia, what particular significance does this carry ? And what was the "Macedonian Theme" ?

Thanks once again for a pretty impressive piece of scholarship. (I hope that everybody else visiting this site says [...]

Read the full comment so too !)

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Julius,

With respect, I was not in "a bit of a hurry" - it took me a good 24 hours to research exactly what happened with the 1182 "Massacre of the Latins", and I carefully composed - and corrected - the whole text in Word before I posted it.

I don't doubt anything you say about the earlier years, and you have clearly done a lot of research (which I respect). The only thing which I would observe is that early napalm (or "Greek Fire") did not seem to work very well [...]

Read the full comment against the ships of the Fourth Crusade in 1204 in their long maritime siege of Byzantium, which was finally successful once the weather changed.

As I posted earlier, none of the protagonists in this particular episode of Byzantine history emerge with any credit at all !

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Julius - thanks. I take your point about the Dardanians and Paionians (crypto-Illyrians ?) and their "mortal enemy" status with the Ancient Macedonians, to complete the archaio-Macedonian story. (Clearly that must have been a fun time too for the locals !)

I am tempted to draw a modern-day parallel between the Crypto-Illyrians and the Sqiperi/Albanians
whom we all know and love (as long as they are a long way off!), but that would be a bit presumptuous of me. (Possibly we can leave that kind of presumption to Pella and his successor "Guess who's [...]

Read the full comment back!!")

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Well, nobody can surely quarrel with Julius's excellent and very thorough exegesis of the BC (Before Christ) origins of the name "Macedonia", though I would be interested to see a parallel exegesis of the AD (Anno Domini)years up until the early years of the Byzantine empire at least, up to (say) 700 AD.

My impression is that before that point everything had started to get very muddled, not least with the Illyrians (who had been there for some time), plus the Vlachs/Aromanians, and also the Slavic arrivals.

(I have left out the [...]

Read the full comment Goths, Ostrogoths, Vandals, Huns, and Visigoths for ease of reference, though their main field of activity was a bit further north, displacing other established populations to move south. Must have been a fun time...)

The word Macedon (Gk: Makedvn) is very likely to come from the Greek word 'makednos' first mentioned in Homer's Odyssey and later by Herodotus, who called 'Makednon eunos' the various Doric tribes among which he included the Macedonians the word 'Makednos' has the meaning of long, tall, and highlander. Some archaeologists believe that the Macedonians were called so because they were tall. Nowadays the meaning of 'highlander' is more prevalent. This is because Macedonians used to live early in prehistoric times in the mountains of Vermio in Greece.
The Greek words Macetia (Gk: MAKETIA) and [...]

Read the full comment Macetae (Gk: MAKETAI) were also used in early times to identify Macedonia and the Macedonians.
Hesiod in Theogonia, written in the middles of 8th century BC, claimed that Makednos and Magnes who used to live in the lands around mountain Olympus and Pieria were sons of Zeus and Thyias, daughter of Deukalion. This suggests that the other Greeks of that time believed that the Macedonians and Magnetes belonged to the same tribe (a Hellenic one).
Hellanikos, who lived at the time of Herodotus, considered Macedon son of Aeolos. Apollodoros considered Macedon son of Lykaon and thus grandson of the king of Argos Pelasgos and Lykaon king of Arcadians whose 50 sons became leaders of various greek tribes. On the other hand Aelianos considered Lykaon, King of Emathia and Pindos, son of Macedon.
Aeschylus, in Iketidai, had the king of Argos Pelasgos boasting that his family was ruling the lands beyond Pindos and Dodoni up to river Strymon.
To all retarded or brainwashed
and that is final the word
"Macedonia" has nothing to do with
Paionia which is set north of "Ancient Macedonia"

Aristotle:

I will definately do that, you have my word. And, if you ever find yourself in London or Thessaloniki, you should do the same .
If you have a F/B account, look me up, this is my real name.


Regards

Personally, I cannot look a Macedonian in the eye and tell him he is not who he says he is. From a distance its easy to reject people. And to offer your explanations. But up close I can't do it.
If FYROM isn't allowed to call itself Macedonia, it could destabilise the country, and Albanians and slav-Macedonians could start killing each other. Again I can't bear to see children being killed because of a name issue. Let them have their name and lets move on. As Greeks we don't have to agree with their version of history, but [...]

Read the full comment lets accept them and the name they want for their country. In my opinion, Macedonia is a Greek name, but if that's the name they like, then let them use it.

Personally, I cannot look a Macedonian in the eye and tell him he is not who he says he is. From a distance its easy to reject people. And to offer your explanations. But up close I can't do it.
If FYROM isn't allowed to call itself Macedonia, it could destabilise the country, and Albanians and slav-Macedonians could start killing each other. Again I can't bear to see children being killed because of a name issue. Let them have their name and lets move on. As Greeks we don't have to agree with their version of history, but [...]

Read the full comment lets accept them and the name they want for their country. In my opinion, Macedonia is a Greek name, but if that's the name they like, then let them use it.

Evengelia - I'm truly sorry that you feel as you do, though it is perfectly true that this site (and its peers) can sometimes appear like a "dialogue of the deaf". Somtimes I have felt that the semi-educated (on both sides, I have so say) are merely reiterating what was in their respective school textbooks 10 to 20 years ago), and each trying to drown out the other by putting their "contribution" in capital letters. This is not how a peaceful and constructive way forward is achieved.

You yourself were nearly alone amongst contributors by putting [...]

Read the full comment forward a well-researched and well-argued detailed case that would have withstood scrutiny in any international forum, and I have much enjoyed our dialogue. If you are ever in Guildford, look me up.

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to Macedonia for the Macedonians -

This is meant to be a factually helpful comment to you and others and (for once !) does not mean I am taking either side.

There is an extremely helpful Wikipedia entry for "Vlahi". Unfortunately, it comes up in Czech as "Vlahi- prosto enciclopedia". Do not worry about this, click on the Czech item, and at the bottom left of the screen there is an item called "v drugich jezikih" (in second languages). This item gives you a choice of English, Greek, or Makedonski versions of [...]

Read the full comment the full item.

The English text is excellent and very informative. In brief, the Vlahi are first recorded in 586 AD, and are also mentioned at length by 6th century AD chronicler Procopius. They started off in the central Balkans (the site has an excellent map showing their spread), and got as far as Moldova, Slovenia, Greek Thessaly, and (most of all) Romania. The language is strongly Latin-based, but is different from Romanian.

Hope this is helpful to everybody on both sides of the debate.

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The Vlahi people are the fist to live on Macedonian lands the name Macedonia means Tall somthing long like a Tree.

the term Vlah was given to our people in there time of rule in the 6 Centery Ad bu before this date we have always been known as macedonians.

there are two types of Vlahi People there ones that call them selves Vlahs and theres others that dont want to be called Vlahs because they are Macedonians the Vlah language is 1 of the oldest languages in ancient history we are [...]

Read the full comment the fisrt latin speakers. we are not romanians we go back even beofore the ancient romans.

Hey listen every one believes in what there parents and grandparents teach them I know that I can’t change your views that you have been taught. But I can just let you know no one knows the truth only god you could be wrong or I can be wrong.

There is know right answer all I know is my family lived on Macedonian lands they speak Macedonian there parents where born in (florina) Greece it used to be called (Lerin). Before 1913.

We are Macedonians because we have lived on this land [...]

Read the full comment for 5000 years.
I’m not from the republic of Macedonia my family was all born in Greece today and before 1913 we never spoke Greek.

We have a huge Minority in Greece we a (Vlahi) we where the fist to live on Macedonian soil. The Word Macedonia is a Vlahi word meaning tall.

Vlahi language is not Slavic or Greek we don’t speak the same. We are closer to the Latin speakers.

But there is two main Macedonians the Vlahi Tribe and the Slavic Tribes there the fist people to live on Macedonian soil.

Evangelia - it's going to be a pretty clever 6-year old who knows all that, but well done on your masterly summary of Ancient Greek / Hellenistic history.

The objective way of looking at all this is maybe to divide Greek and Macedonian history into "modules" (a bit like present-day teaching methods, much as I personally dislike them):

Module 1 is Ancient / Hellenistic Greece up to 146 BC with the Battle of Corinth and the Roman Invasion.

Module 2 is Greece under the Roman Empire from 146 [...]

Read the full comment BC until (I suggest) the foundation of Byzantium by the emperor Constantine c.400 AD (when exactly was it ?)

Module 3 is Greece under the Byzantines from c.400 AD until the Turkish capture of Constantinople in 1453 AD.

Module 4 is Greece under Turkish / Otttoman rule from 1453 to 1821 AD

Module 5 is independent Greece from 1821 to 1913 (Second Balkan War) and the Treaty of Bucharest

Module 6 is Greek history from 1913 until 1940 and the Italian / German invasion.

Module 7 is Greek history from 1940 until the end of the Greek Civil War in 1949 and its aftermath

Module 8 is Greek history from 1950 until the Colonels regime in 1968

Module 9 is Greek history during the Colonels regime and after, until EU Accession in 1982.

Module 10 is Greek history from 1982 onwards, including the fall of Communism and the break-up of Jugoslavia.

Would this be helpful ? Some modules will clearly prove more contentious than others, but other modules can at least be agreed by everybody and excluded from subsequent discussion.

You also said that Macedonia is a Vlach word....
Vlach is a Slavic-derived term from the Germanic word Valah/Valach used to designate the Romance speaking peoples of South-Eastern Europe: Romanians, Aromanians, Megleno-Romanians and Istro-Romanians.

The earliest references of "Slavs" under this name are from the 6th century AD. Since you mention that macedonia has a history of 5000 years (which is inaccurate by the way), don't you think that there is quite a gap????? How could someone that first appeared in the 6th century AC have named Macedonia who is 5000 years old.
[...]

Read the full comment />
Apparently common sense is not that "common" after all.

P.S:
he district of Macedonia took its name from Macedon, according to Hesiod a son of Zeus and Thyia, Deucalion's daughter, "who conceived and bore to Zeus, who delights in the thunderbolt, two sons, Magnes and Macedon, rejoicing in horses, who dwell round about Pieria and Olympus". Hesiod makes Magnes and Macedon brothers, cousins of Graecus, sons of Zeus and grandchildren of Deucalion, the progenitor of all Greeks. Magnes fathered the Magnesians who settled south of Mt. Olympus in Thessaly. Macedon settled north of Mt. Olympus in Macedonia and fathered the Macedonians. Hellanicus of Lesbos in c. 500 BCE, a Greek historian and contemporary of Herodotus, gives a variant of Hesiod's account and supports that Macedon was the son of Aeolus and thus a grandson to Deucalion

A second version for the etymology of the word is provided by Herodotus.
According to Herodotus, both the Dorians and Macedonians descended from the Makednoi tribe. The name of the latter two probably derives from the Doric noun μᾶκος, mākos (Attic and modern Greek μάκρος, mákros and μῆκος, mēkos), meaning "length", and the adjective μακεδνός, makednós, meaning "tall, taper", since both the Macedonians (Makedónes) and their Makednoi tribal ancestors were regarded as tall people. The adjective is used by Homer in Odyssey (7.105f), to describe a tall poplar tree, and by Aristophanes in his comedy the Birds, to describe a wall built around their imaginary city.

To Vlah FYROMian:

How hard is it to distinguish between modern day Republic of Greece (After the Greek War of Independence, successfully fought against the Ottoman Empire from 1821 to 1829, the nascent Greek state was finally recognized under the London Protocol) and ancient Greece????????
It's not nuclear science... According to your statement Ancient Greece never existed... Now that you read it here, can you understand how absurd your claim is?? So, basically ancient GREEK are not even a language since ancient Greece never really existed...
Just because I'm really tired of [...]

Read the full comment answering to primary school questions (which by the way can be answered just by reading a history book that is not written just by a FYROMian "historian"), I will give you an answer for the last time.

The term ancient Greece refers to the period of Greek history lasting from the Greek Dark Ages ca. 1100 BC and the Dorian invasion, to 146 BC and the Roman conquest of Greece after the Battle of Corinth. It is generally considered to be the seminal culture which provided the foundation of Western civilization and shaped cultures throughout Southwest Asia and North Africa. The civilization of the ancient Greeks has been immensely influential on language, politics, educational systems, philosophy, science, and the arts, inspiring the Islamic Golden Age and the Western European Renaissance.

The Hellenistic period (where the name Hellas originated) describes the era which followed the conquests of Alexander the Great. During this time, Greek cultural influence and power was at its zenith in Europe and Asia. It is often considered a period of transition, sometimes even of decline or decadence[1], between the brilliance of the Greek Classical Era and the emergence of the Roman Empire. Usually taken to begin with the death of Alexander in 323 BC, the Hellenistic period may either be seen to end with the final conquest of the Greek heartlands by Rome in 146 BC; or the final defeat of the last remaining successor-state to Alexander's empire, the Ptolemaic kingdom of Egypt in 31/30 BC [2]. The Hellenistic period was characterized by a new wave of Greek colonization which established Greek cities and kingdoms in Asia and Africa.

So, please, I honestly urge you to open a book before embarassing yourselves in such way ( a 6 year old knows these things...)

Aristotle, that would be the ideal solution but I don't think that it's a realistic one... Just think of how many years we cannot agree on an acceptable by both parties solution for the naming dispute...
Imagine what would happen if they would try to find a solution regarding centuries upon centuries of history...
Not even our children's grandchildren wouldn't live to see that becoming reality...

Regards

Evangelia - kalemera !

You had an extremely good point indeed about school history textbooks - clearly Greek kids learn one version of Macedonian history, fyrMacedonia kids learn a quite different one, and kids up in Northern Europe learn a third version (if they learn it at all !)

An international exercise to align all the history books in schools might be a very good idea. Northern Ireland had to do it in 1999 as part of the Good Friday Peace Agreement, so there is a precedent there.

[...]

Read the full comment There is another recent prededent in Germany and Poland, where the "history" of Silesia and Pomerania was very differently taught, depending upon in which country the school was. (Silesia and Pomerania used to be German, but Poland acquired them after 1945 and re-populated them with Poles from the "lost territories" of Lwow and Wilno (seized by the USSR.))

This was a "hot potato" in European dialogue until in 1990 Germany was reunified and accepted that Poland now had the legitimate occupancy of the "verloren Deutschen landen" ("lost German territories") of Breslau and Danzig (now Wroclaw and Gdansk).

As a result all the school textbooks in both Germany and Poland have now been re-written since 1990, to align on one single joint interpretation of their history. !

A bit of a precedent for Macedonia (both parts), maybe ?

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Indeed, Aristotle... It was meant to be "one must not think that VETO is ...." Thank you ... It's amazing how a 3 letter word can change the entire meaning of a sentence.

Kalinixta (By the way, you continue to amaze me)

Evangelia -

No worries: no offence taken.

(By the way, when you wrote:

"but one must think that VETO is the only "weapon" left in our arsenal. The truth of the matter is that a solution...."

did you perhaps omit the word "not" in front of "think" ?
That would make more sense in your context.

Dobranoc (this time I'll use Polish - it means the same as "Bonne Nuit")

I have to admit Aristotle that I acted rather impulsively on that one, and completely misunderstood and misinterpreted the quote. Please accept my apologies as I perceived your comment as ironic and responded on that basis. Please accept my apologies. And may I just add that I am truly impressed by your linguistic abilities.
To Undisputed: File mou, I do agree in principal with part of what you said, but I don't agree with the way you expressed it.
Nothing good or beneficial can come out by making statements and not justifying them. Maybe, for us [...]

Read the full comment Greeks, issues like this one can be resolved by the use of "common sense", but unfortunately, not all people were educated with the same books as you and I did. The Skopjan/ FYROMian (?) people have been "fed" with entirely different information than you and I. Don't blame them, try and sympathise with them. I do want them to enter the EU and the NATO, but not by compromising my principles. Greece's strategy may seem aggressive by some and unfair by others (completely justified by me..), but one must think that VETO is the only "weapon" left in our arsenal. The truth of the matter is that a solution has to be drafted so we can all look forward. People in Skopje need the EU, poverty levels in the country have reached 30% and that should not be acceptable in the 21st century Europe.

Regards

Kalinixta

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Evangelia - many thanks for the explanation of the "role of the family" in Greek politics. I take your point about the Karamanlis link being an indirect one. Leaving the word "nepotism" aside with its slightly pejorative overtones, there is maybe something to be said for the US system of family "dynasty" politics - look at the Kennedys, for example (don't look at the Bushes, though it's probably true there as well), the Rockefellers, the Roosevelts, and now the Clintons. In the UK, though the trend is weaker, we have the Churchills (who started off with the first Duke of [...]

Read the full comment Marlborough in 1701 in the Wars in the Netherlands (confusingly called the Wars of Spanish Succession), and ended with Winston Churchill in 1940-45. At a lower level we have the Earl of Stansgate (Anthony Wedgwood-Benn) who gave up his title to remain in the House of Commons as a Minister in the 1970s/80s. His son, Hilary Benn, is now the UK Minister of Agriculture ! So, as they say, "we cannot preach"...

Nice talking to you too - must stop now as these posts should not be over-long. Next post shortly.

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Evangelia - many sincere thanks for your thoughtful comments.

First, I did suspect that oikogeniarch, gr: =οικογενειαρχεια did not actually exist as a word, but I tried following the rules of Greek as I recall them from school, and ended up with oikogeneiarkheia as you did, then I anglicised it ! Thanks for being understanding, anyway.

Family politics is not confined to Greece - the US was a prime example with the two Bush presidents, and in Poland we have two brothers as President and Prime Minister respectively. North Korea is perhaps [...]

Read the full comment the worst with Kim Jong Il, son of the Great leader, with his youngest son to follow in the Dynasty. But a lot of international opinion is of the view that by and large it is a bad thing (they call it "nepotism" - my creation of "oikogenaiarkheia" was an attempt to apply a politically neutral 'label' for the same thing.) And, of course, in Britain we have a hereditary monarchy, which is perhaps the ultimate in "oikogenarchics" (!)
Or of course, nepotism.

I'll post my other answers later.

Best wishes meanwhile

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Aristotle
Yes L.d.B does mention "The Smyrna
Holocaust" You don't as you do not
answer my question about the Tito
partisans cleansing of "Schwabian-
Danube" population.
It was the "Orthodox Clergy" supported by the "Greek Philotimo" through the means of "secret schools" "krifo scholio" that kept the ethnicity and language brazing through 400 years of Ottoman joug. Your education was not enough updated so you grant me the privilege of updating it.
Cheers pal.

Julius - yes, I know it's a novel (but a well-researched one, and the author does touch on the Smyrna atrocity).

The population of Cephalonia were apparently quite happy with Louis de Bernieres "Captain Corelli" book, not least as he had spent quite some time on the island doing research, and the events he described were thought by them to be accurate, especially the troubled relationship between the Italian and German invaders.

What they did NOT like was the "Captain Corelli" film, which over-simplified everything and left out a lot of important [...]

Read the full comment nuances which the book had included.

So I tentatively conclude that "Birds Without Wings" is as accurate as the book "Captain Corelli", i.e. well-researched even if there IS a romantic sub-plot (which every novel has to have).

To my knowledge, there is no other accessible work in English about the Pontian exodus and its horrors. Grateful to be informed if there is one - I shall read it.

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Evangelia - point well taken. But when you say Greece was "enslaved by the Ottomans, unable to speak its own language for 400 years" (an accurate historical statement, by the way), this is not logically consistent with the claim of other Greeks on this site that there is "3000 years of unbroken Greek heritage in Macedonia". This 400 years of oppression would have broken the heritage.

You have a good point about the Pontian Greeks, by the way. The horrors of the 1924-26 population exhange between Greece and Turkey have never been fully described (except in [...]

Read the full comment Louis de Bernieres' novel "Birds Without Wings", which I believe is fairly accurate.)

To Evangelia.
Of course there exist no nation
without dark periods but few
like China,Egypt,Greece,Persia,Rome
have so much of an heritage to
be proud of.
On the other side of the Atlantic
we have Aztecs,Mayas,
Some people driven by an abnormal sense of critique will seek the dark moments only, it makes them
feel good and superior.
in French "Ils s'apercoivent de la paille dans l'oeil d'autri mais ne rendent pas compte de la poutre dans leur".
In [...]

Read the full comment tranliterated Greek.
vlepoyn to axiro sto mati toy allou
alla den antilamvanontai to dokano poy vrisketai sto diko toys.

*point of views was meant to be points of view

Aristotle:

We have 2 very different point of views and no matter how much time we both "waste" it will lead nowhere.
I am (naturally) pro-Greek and you are (obviously) anti-Greek.
Chinese continue to commit hideous crimes till today, kidnapping children, executing people that are not pro-communists. Does that mean that the Chinese people don't have the right to be proud of their heritage?
Romans used to kill Christians at the Colosseum, they instigated the crusades,does that mean that no Roman-Italian has the right to "brag" about their culture?
[...]

Read the full comment /> Accordingly, the Swedes had the pirates-Vikings and I could go on for ages...
You tried to correct me by saying that there the 1913 issue with the Balkan wars.. The key word being "wars"
But I guess we, Greeks, only ever harmed people with no obvious reason, right? We just woke up one day and said who are we going to attack first?
|But of course, not once did I hear you mention the Pontian genocide, the fact that the greeks were enslaved to the Ottoman empire for 400 years, that we were not able to speak our own language or praise the Lord, or have the basic right to education let alone everything else...
But I guess all these don't matter, right? We are still the bad guys, but let us be that way. Cause under no circumstances will we allow anyone else to dance on our ancestors graves.

"But I am myself Hellene by descent, and I would not willingly see Hellas exchange freedom for slavery.... I am Alexander of Macedon." (Herodotus, The Histories, 9.45)

Aristotles.
You Did not answer my Previous post you could not cope with it
About the the Blood bath during War Of the Roses
About N.Ireland attrocities
About the Zuluss' massacre
About The Conquest of Britain by
the Romans circa 55 bc
the name Britain is out of Britania the Roman one sweetie from The Channel up to The Hadrian Walls include Wales not only Greece was a Roman Province
600.000 where Nazi collabators
which the "British" deported
to Ruussia? [...]

Read the full comment
I think I have heared the same
moto "if you not with us you
are considered a collaborator
and a fascist" usually uttered by leftish inclined folks if the word "Commie" shocks any delicate ears.
cheers.

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Precisely which points are left unanswered ? Grateful if you would enlighten us.

(By the way - you got one thing wrong. It wasn't Tito's partisans who sent the Austrian/Slovene "collaborators" to their deaths in Russia - it was the British. )

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"Think About It" has a very good point. Greece's tenure of its own Macedonia and Thrace is pretty recent, as he says (following the First Balkan War of 1913, I believe).

Greeks stop trying to link ancient history with Macedonia of today. As you say in your blogs theres 2500 years of Greek history in Macedonia, do really belive only Greeks lived in that area for all that time? From the balkan war, you recieved territory from Macedonia and Thrace far greater then your colonies from ancient times to the 20th century inhabited. So why don't you keep your lands you won in war with gratitude and stop crying like babies over a name that served the whole region and belongs to anybody who was born there!!

Well, compared to Auschwitz / Oswiecim with its 4 million dead, I suppose everything else is a kindergarten by comparison.

But that does not excuse any of it - German , Tito's partisans, Greeks in the 1946/49 Civil War, or anybody else involved in atrocities and genocide.

The South Africans maybe had the best idea in the 1990s: a "Truth and Reconciliation Commission." It looks as if Greece still needs one (the ex-Yugoslavs actually do have one, in Slovenia.)

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Aristotles/Spela/Duck/Cornelius
Peter and whatever next.
Maria put it in in nice way
in 2500 years of history you choose the period 46-49
Tell me something you bitter thing
when you enter a rose garden
you admire the roses or keep your
head down and look at the manure
is that what you recall of Cambridge where you studied classsics the manure?
46-49

Aristotles/Spela/Duck/Cornelius
Peter and whatever next.
You Did not answer my Previous post you could not cope with it
About the the Blood bath during War Of the Roses
About N.Ireland attrocities
About the Zuluss' massacre
About The Conquest of Britain by
the Romans circa 55 bc
the name Britain is out of Britania the Roman one sweetie from The Channel up to The Hadrian Walls include Wales

Cheers White feather.
Vraiement degeullasse.
You asked for it [...]

Read the full comment now you can fool nobody but newcommers with your so
called impartiality.
sober up

Sorry - Evangelia - I take your point, but there is also the 1913 business in Macedonia with the Second Balkan War(more atrocities by all three sides), and - earlier - just what the Phanariot Greeks got up to in Constantinople in sponsoring slavery during the time of the Ottoman Empire.

No country has clean hands, as you say, but Greek hands are no cleaner than any others.

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As a fellow Greek, Evangelia, I do not "shiver with pride" when I consider our country's history - instead I shiver with shame when I consider our Civil War of 1946-49 and the barbarism that went on on both sides, with child deportations, mass murder, mutilations and minor genocide, all in the name of Ellas. And the full story of what went on in the Makronisos concentration camp will never be told until we get a truly democratic government in Greece.

Sorry, but think twice before you "shiver with pride" again.

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why would i call my self somthing im not. i know and all the people in the world know and the Macedonian people know what we are and how full off shit your country is.

We are Macedonians because we live there.

you get me we are Macedonians and there is nothing that you can do about it.

And FYI:
Alexander= Greek for "the one that defends his men"
Philip= Greek for "the one who loves horse
Olympia= do you really need me to spell this one out as well? Olympic games, Mount Olympus etc.
Why would a guy that wasn't greek, have a greek name, why would all his ancestors have greek names, why would he spread the greek culture throughout the world?
Get a grip. But it's all our fault... I have to admit... We gave you the right to voice your ridiculous claims in this [...]

Read the full comment propagandistic manner, we should have taken action long before this joke became an issue....
But on the other hand, I feel really sorry for you. Cause I have no idea how it feels like to have no identity, no history that I can be proud of. It's only normal that you would try to obtain one sooner or later...
Like sheep going to slaughter, you let your extremist brain-wash you without using the one tool that you had available, common sense.

And as of this time, I shall not deal with you anymore, cause, as opposed to you, I do know who I am, I do know the name of my country and I do have a history that makes me shiver with pride.
On the other hand, you are what you have always been, a big fat nothing!

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Macedonia is for the Macedonians

Macedonia was never Greek

Greece didn’t exist in Ancient Times

The Word Greece was fabricated in the 1830 which makes Greece
and the Hellenic Republic only 179 years old

The Macedonians are the Vlah or Vlahi people since the lived in Macedonian
Lands first and the word Macedonia is a Vlah word meaning Tall something Long.

The Greeks never had anything to do with Macedonia until 1913 when the Western Powers [...]

Read the full comment at the time Split the land into three, Greece quickly changed the name of its occupied area to southern Greece Serbia changed the name of Macedonian to Southern Serbia then later changed it to Vardarska Bonavian and Bulgaria changed its part to Pirin.

But it wasn’t to 1945 when the Macedonians from Serbia occupied Macedonia won there freedom and where allowed to be called Macedonians.

Then Greece when they herd the Macedonians from Serbia occupied Macedonia where Going to be Independent they quickly change the name from Southern Greece to Macedonia in all parts of Thessalonica in 1989.

And then the Macedonians from Yugoslavia where Independent in 1991.

The only occupied State that was set free. And Greece was worried that a nation of 2 Million will ask for lost Territory. Macedonians don’t want that lost land back they just want there people to treated fairly and allowed to be called Macedonians because that’s what we are Macedonians.

Our Grandparents lived and died on this land they all called them selves Macedonians

All the people that ruled and lived on Macedonian Soil are Macedonians and The Greeks and Bulgarians can’t stop our people calling and feeling what is right we are Macedonians.

The True Macedonians are the Vlah Tribe, the Term Vlah was given to our people in Byzantine times under there rule it’s a Slang word.

But this Tribe is the True Inhabitants of Macedonia the Original Macedonians

The 16 Ray Star Burst represents the 16 Kings of Ancient Macedonia

Some Greek said 4 weeks ago it represents the 12 Olympic Greek Gods

The 16 Rays represents 16 Sarar meaning Kings

To Cleopatra, you should be ashamed. You have a greek name and a great history behind you. With your name, you recognized by yourself that Macedonia is exclusively Greek and in Greece and FYROM is a slavic old province.

You are awesome. Respect.

Marina, thanks for your attitude and support. I like to discuss with reasonable and polite persons like you who accepts the historical facts with an objective (and not fanatic) point of view.

Thank you once again and long live to Greek Macedonia!

To Marina go back to your domestic life, you are embarrasing women everywhere. Educated women know Macedonia was never Greek or hellinized, so go back to some other Greek biased history books and cook up some of that delicious pita. As for you Greek men stop trying to compare with the ancient Greeks as you come up way short!

You're certainly entitled to be a Hellenophile, and you make a good argument for it, which I accept. But somebody (like me) has to act as Devil's Advocate, otherwise they get too big for their boots.

There is an analogous situation much closer to home for both you and me, and that is the position of the Hungarian minority in Romanian Transylvania. (There used to be a German minority there too, but it took the opportunity of German Reunification in 1990 to head off back to Germany.)

The Treaty of Trianon 1919 [...]

Read the full comment established the current (and contentious) Romanian borders, in the same way as the Treaty of Bucharest 1913 established the current borders of northern Greece, Bulgaria, Macedonia, and Albania. I don't expect you to comment on this (though, as a good Hungarian, you may wish to), but it is a very analogous situation dating from the same era.

Koszonom !

To Marina Kovacs
I agree 100% with you, on behalf of all who have the same attitude
towards Ancient Greece. Thank you
very much.

Spela, thank you for the response. I actually domicile in Budapest but my origins are in Békéscsaba.
But my friend, you have to allow me to disagree.
FYROM keep referring to the 19th and 20th century history. I am talking about a justification based on the name you are claiming to be yours. I know for a fact that if another country was attempting to call themselves Mayars we will have exactly the same response as the greeks.
If someone adopts your point of view, then Sparta, Crete (Minoans), Thebes etc are not greek [...]

Read the full comment either. Spartans had a different language than the Athenians but they are all greek.
I am sorry I appear to be a bit biased, but I'm a lover of greek history and I admire what they've offered to the rest of us. Just keep in mind that if Pericles had not "invented" democracy, you wouldn't have the right to have your voice heard. I just find most of your comments a bit disrespectful. At the end of the day they are a country full of history that have offered in countless ways and we ought to respect that, the same way we respect the chinese, the egyptian, the romans. Unfortunately my friend, my country and your country have a history that is very small comparing to all the other ones that I have already mentioned. Sad but true.
I just realised that I love Greece more than I had realised lol

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And Pella and Macedonia are nowadays in Greece. End of the story. Thank you.

Best Regards.

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Invasions are the fact of all the countries and nations of the world. Your reasoning is a non-sense. That doesn't change anything to the Historical truth and today's evidence that only Greeks are Macedonians and Macedonia is located in Greece. Macedonia is greek since 3000 years. You have to accept the truth.

I can help you to implant/imprint this in your mind.

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To "Megas Vlakas" and all his aliases, first, stop to write in caps, your text is unreadable and your english very approximative. Sometimes you forget 2-3 letters in each words. It seems you didn't study english at all, like most of FYROMians who don't have any money.

Secondly, I'm laughing about your desperate long posts to convince people and mostly yourself that you are Macedonian. But the fact, you are not... I smelt all the frustration and for not being a Macedonian in your posts and I enjoy to see this, haha!

[...]

Read the full comment Only Greeks are Macedonians and Macedonia is located in Greece. Macedonia is greek since 3000 years.
What is outside this greek region can't be called Macedonia and has nothing to do with Macedonia.
FYROM's real name is VARDASKA and you are vardaskian. Nothing else to add to it. End of the story.

Macedonia is 4 who ever wants and feels Macedonian

macedonia is land whear a lot of different languages have been spoken like latin slavic turkish different rulers like roman turks slavic in the end they are all macedonians in away because they ruled the land but they always called them selves macedonians and they never changed the name.

like our neiguboure greece did in 1913 and only recently changed it back in 1989 when they herd the macedonian people from yugoslavia are going to be Independent from fear thinging that a population [...]

Read the full comment of 2 Million Vs 15 Million with troops of 8,000 vs 250,000 we would fight for owe land back they can keep it.

but not to denie our people that live there thre rights

Macedonians always existed in yugoslavia but we where always denied our rights but in 1945 the macedonian people won there freedom and where allowed to be called macedonians the law is still the same in greece and bulgeria which dont reconise the macedonain language bulgeria reconise the macedonian people but not the language.

but clearly they know that there language was created by the macedonians when the bulgerians first came to the region they never spoke macedonian but they slowley learnt our language and called it there own now thats just play robbery.

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To Marina, you understood well what kind of tricky situation we have there. FYROM has nothing to do with Macedonia, which is greek since 3000 years. Don't read the comments of Spela, which comes from a disturbed fanatic person. it's not his fault, since their politicians brainwashed them with historical extrapolations and false theories.

To be short, after the explosion of Yugoslavia, this pseudo-state called FYROM tried to promote an absurdity proclaming themselves "Macedonians", while they are not greek, nor their territory has nothing to do with the great greek macedonian empire. The real and historic [...]

Read the full comment Macedonia was and is in Greece. Pella, the capital is in Greece.

What you are reading outside this is tons of aberrations and false ideas created by ultranationalist and fanatic people.

If you want to visit Macedonia, go in Greece where it takes place.

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Can I just ask you guys something?
From the history we were tought in our country (which is not Greece nor FYROM), Alexander the Great who was the King of the Kingdom of Macedonia, was educated by the great philosopher Aristotle and his language was ancient greek. Even his name Alexander is Greek (i think it means defender of men), his dad's name Phillip is also greek (one who loves horses) and his mum was Olympia ( no comment needed i think, mount Olympus, Olympic games etc.). So i am really confused as to why do the FYROM [...]

Read the full comment people can claim such thing anyway, as the Slav tribe came along much later.
Sorry if i upseted anybody, it's not my intention to take sides. I just wanted to express my concern

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I'm speaking a perfect english and the problem yours is limited... I'm afraid you have to do more studies to reach my level.

And you said FYROmians are going in Turkey instead of Greece for holidays? Well, how do you explain my uncle's hotel in Halkidiki had about 50-100 Fyromians everyday? Thanks to you, FYROmano-vardaskian neighbours, my uncle did lot of money the past summer.

Unfortunately, the sad side is he told me FYROMians are very dirty, they throw trashes everywhere, they have no ecologic or hygenienic consciousness. He had to wash [...]

Read the full comment their room 3-4 times everyday. So, I cannot imagine how much Skopje stinks a..

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I know you feel frustrated you are not Macedonian and FYROM has nothing to do with Macedonia. You and your compatriots are trying to convince yourselves Alexander was Slavic and Macedonia is Italian or Ouzbek, etc.

I enjoy seeing how you express your frustration with battle of false arguments and desperate critics to downgrade people's opinion to Greece. You are embracing winds.

And then we will see you in our greek beaches this summer, because you have no sea in your fake country. Aaaa, that's sooo pathetic, but hehehe.

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Macedonia is greek since 3000 years. Everything which has been said by the other members are pure historical distortions.

The most absurd thing is to say Macedonia is a vlah or slavic name.
The problem is the Slav's came just thousand years after the creation of Macedonia and have nothing to do with Macedonian culture or history. So how do you explain it?
Plus, Macedonia is a greek name itself, but no needs to argument more about it.

I know it's too difficult to accept it for Slav's [...]

Read the full comment population that they were cannibals and unexistant when Alexander did his conquest...

But let's think about the current situation. Even if they say Greek "occupies" Macedonia, that doesn't change anything. The biggest part of Macedonia and historic one, including the capital Pella, is nowadays in Greece now and therefore is Greek. So they can dream if they think Macedonia can be unified in the future. That will never happen and remain a dream...

MACEDONIA = GREECE
GREECE = MACEDONIA

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listen macedonia was never a kingdom of Greece because Greece never existed back then even the word Hellenic was never existed these are true facts.

Macedonians are a lot older then greeks.

Greeks have been around for only 179 years but the people that live in Greece today are Vlah Macedonians speakers that arnt allowed to speak there language also Albanians and also also Turkish people Roma. greece today is made up from these people.

listen know one knows what they are talking about.

Macedonia is for the Macedonians

Macedonia was never part off Greek or Hellenic History because the Country Greece did not exist in Alexander the Greats Time. the the country Greece was created in the 1830s so it makes this so called ancinet country 179 Years old. when the name Macedonia is over 5000 years old.

ther word Macedonia comes from the Vlah Speakers meaning tall somthing long.

Macedonians have been dealing with a lot of [...]

Read the full comment Problems with its negibours for many many years.

The Macedonian people all they want is a peacefull life with no trouble. if the Greeks feel they are Macedonian then let them call them selves Macedonians but they should not get involved in what our people want to call them selves. The Greeks called them selves Macedonians since 1989 beofore this time they didnt want anything to do with macedonia even solonika was not called macedonia before this date so they have no wright to try to dicate what we can be called. they can call there part macedonia but they cant stop us being called macedonians because thats what we are we are the True Macedonians of Alexander the Great we where born Macedonians and Macedonians we should live by nothing else.

Please allow me to express my opinion as an independent "viewer" of the debate and as a historian. The idea of creating a country on the geographical area called Macedonia comes from the end of the 19th century after the Berlin Congress of 1878 when Bulgaria was partitioned.The majority of the people were believed to be tightly connected wuth Bulgaria and her heritage! Nevertheless, the idea of greater Bulgaria did not appeal to the Great Powers. Apparently, even today it still does not although the impression that FYROM is a “cloning” of Bulgaria comes to almost everyone’s mind! Now the [...]

Read the full comment attempt of the irredentist government of Skopje is to hide away this resemblance, they try to concentrate the people’s mind on the antique part of the history and run away from their Slavic (bulgarian) roots! In that they succeed pretty well, indeed! But thus they fell in the trap that Greece had prepared for them and now it seems like there is no way out of it! And with that attitude, the government of Skopje cannot now even count on any benevolent actions or any kind of support from Sofia! On the contrary, Sofia is worried now about Skopje ordering the exhumation of Bulgarian soldiers on the territory of FYROM! Skopje is in isolation!
And I think there is only one way out of this situation: huge reform in Skopje! From A to Z!! Put an end with all disputes with the neighboring countries, including the name dispute by cutting any claims on ancient or medieval history! FYROM started in 1944 and its idea originated after the Balkan Wars, not with Alexander the Great!
This will inevitably lead to a change in identity that will be painful to many! But the excommunist propaganda has to be stopped! Many homes in FYROM still kepp the portrait of Tito hanging on the wall! This is unacceptable!
The idea of a Macedonian state stands for a republic in the Central Balkans that will unite all surrounding countries! It will strive for peace among Greeks, Slavs and Muslims, not hate (as it does now)!! In this context, the subject of its name or its people’s national identity has no significance! It is meant to be “Balkan’s Switzerland”! It may be called Central Balkan Republic and the nationality - “vardarian” by the name of the river “Vardar” and then just put this “macedonian’ mania behind us! Once and for all! It is the root of all evil!!
Otherwise, we do not need another ultranationalist government to sow hatred on the Balkans! If this will be the goal of Skopje’s republic, NO, thank you, we do not need it! We do not need such a country! We need a country like Switzerland on the Balkans - neutral and peaceful, striving for stability in the region, not war!!

A new purposal was put recently on the table by FYROM's officials:
"Republika of Makedonija (Vardar)".

It's a good name which can satisfy both Greece and FYROM.

North of Thessaloniki is Greek and in Greece. Have a look at the world map please.

And yes FYROM is a different thing, very distinct from Macedonia. FYROM is a slavic province and his real name is Vardar. This population has nothing to do with Alexander, nor with Macedonians.

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Macedonia is Greece and Greece is Macedonia. No compromise with that.

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Dear Spela,
I may not agree totally with the findings of your German, as I have seen many documents that show ethnographic breakdowns of Macedonia at the time before liberation, and many of them show pockets of different ethnic settlements across the area north of Thessaloniki. The further north you go the more Bulgarian it gets without a doubt, but remember that the current Greek border is only about 65 kms from Thessaloniki anyway. One thing all the documents have in common though, is that there is no mention of an ethnic Macedonian group in any of them, [...]

Read the full comment ever!

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To all those folks who maintain that Greece invaded Macedonia, I must stress to you that Macedonia was an Ottoman territory inhabited primarily with Christian European peoples, long with some Jews and Turkish muslims, at the time of the first Balkan war. Those Christian subjects of the empire were Greek or Bulgarian or Serbian, and they wanted independence from the Turks. They wanted to be joined with their brothers in Greece or Bulgaria or Serbia. They fought for their freedom alongside their brothers and that is how the Turks were driven out of Macedonia. When it came to who got [...]

Read the full comment what, the Greeks and the Serbs and the Bulgars began to fight against each other. They fought with guns and with words and with dirty tricks and with propaganda. The Bulgars in Macedonia, however, had already come up with a classic plan. They had called themselves Macedonians! Not Bulgars or Bulgarian Macedonians, but just Macedonians. They formed underground movements like the Internal Macedonian Revolutionary Organisation (IMRO). When asked what language they spoke, they answered “Macedonian” - in Bulgarian! It didn’t really go to pan for the Bulgarians because they only ended up with a small piece of Macedonia, but they planted a seed in the mind of the great Yugolsav leader, Tito, many years later. He was inspired by the Bulgarian plan and actually used it against the Bulgars as he feared that his largely Bulgarian population in his bit of Macedonia may get restless and want to hook up with their brothers across the border. What better way to make sure that never happens than to encourage them to embrace their “Macedonian” ethnicity, give them equal standing in the federation of Southern Slavs, and ensure that the cultural bonds with their neighbour are cut forever. Enter the newly formed Republic of Macedonia and the brand new nation of Macedonians! Now just spend the next two or three generations brainwashing every little school kid into believing in their new identity and there you have it my friends! Fast forward to the present and scratch your head at what this whole damn thing is about. Is Greece pissed off? You’re damn right they are! Are they justified? I think so.

To all my Macedonian friends, Alexander LOVED Greece!!! Are you like him? Should you not also love Greece?

As FYROM continues at full speed to build monuments that echo those of the ancient world, it completely overlooks that it fills the landscape with Grecian aesthetics, in other words, in its quest to challenge Greece, it begins to look like Greece. Take it one step further I say, and learn to speak Greek as well. Then you will speak in the tongue of your hero Alexander, and maybe we might concede that you are, after all, true Macedonians.

Friends this is an argument that will never end. The Slav Macedonians need the Macedonian identity as it gives them a sense of history in the region, as misguided as it is. The Greeks cannot accept the legitimacy of Slavic people even though they have been there for centuries, so continue to insult them. Modern Greece is the heir of a continuous Greek-in-language-and-outlook culture that has existed for over three thousand years in this land, regardless of what the political landscape may have looked like. Does the modern Greek nation comprise a mix of different races? For sure it does, [...]

Read the full comment but remember that Vlachs and Arvanites and any other tribes in the mix have one thing in common: they are all Greek in the sense that their recent ancestors made a decision to join with Greeks and participate in the idea of the formation of a modern Greek state. They did this because the idea of Greece is not about racial purity, but rather about a cultural continuity, and this culture includes Macedonia. We can argue about Alexander for an eternity, but at the end of the day we should all realise that his legacy was overwhelmingly Hellenic in nature. Greek language and culture became the dominant force in the Eastern mediterranean for centuries because of Alexander. For all who say they are Macedonian, and who love Alexander, how can you disregard your idol's greatest achievement: The creation of a Hellenistic civilisation?

to Mega Absurdity. You finally got it right Greeks shared a common language, a common culture, a common religion, a common history and a common homogenous pure race! Zeik Heil!! As for Macedonia and Macedonians do read the history books more carefully. P.S. I already stated thar the slavs arrived in the 6th century and ancient Macedonians did not speak slavic! Which proves my point, you do not read carefully!!

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"Before 1913, Pella and Edessa were in fact in slavonic-speaking Macedonia"
>>> Hope you are not serious there? I cannot accept such historical distortions, extrapolations and absurdities. I'm curious to see what kind of falsified documents you are reading and especially coming from U.S.. This is very childish, plain wrong and express nothing than clear fanatism from a population brainwashed during decades by communism. It is unecessary to discuss more with an obsessed and fanatic person like you.

For your information, Pella and Edessa are greek names and cities since more than 3000 years, [...]

Read the full comment a time where Slav's were unexistant in that region...
And Slav's came a thousand years after Alexander's death...

Soon you start to tell me Alexander the Great was slavic and that everything which is Macedonian have slavic origins. I doubt you realize some days what kind of lies you are able to write on a public forum. Be ashamed!

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To "greek myth" & "Spela", you miss totally a point there. You misunderstand the terms "Greece" and "Greeks" and I'm afraid to say you have a terrible lack of knowledge regarding their meanings towards the History and the culture. Greeks and Greece are two different things.

*Greece, as a state, was born very late, in the 19th century. Before that date, the actual greek territory was composed by numberous independant kingdoms: Athens, Pelopponesian, Cretans, Macedonian,... The decision to create a Greek state was linked to the necessary unification of all those kingdoms after the terrible Ottoman [...]

Read the full comment invasion, because they were Greeks.

*But now, what the term "Greeks" means? I admit it's not easy to understand it, but let me explain it in a few words: people who, since thousand and thousand years, share not only the same language, but a common history, a common culture, who believed in the same Gods and did multiple alliances against common ennemies (Turks Ottomans for example). Macedonia was among the kingdoms which were part of the creation of Greece (state & kingdom then), because Macedonians are Greeks since 3000 years. It's a total absurdity to say the Macedonia kingdom (a region now)was invaded by Greece, while Macedonia asked to get attached to the Greek federal state.
It's like you're saying Vardar was invaded by Yugoslavia? Does it make sense? Vardar (FYROM nowadays) was part of the Yugoslavian union, just like Serbians, Croatians, Slovenians,etc.

You can compare it also with the case of Germany which was composed by hundred of kingdoms by the past and is one federal state.

So, there is no point to separate Greeks and Macedonians for the reasons explained.

On the contrary, FYROM has nothing to do with Alexander, since they share nothing with the greek historical and cultural heritage. They are slave and their history is linked with Yugoslavia. Ironically, Fyromians have nothing to do with the Macedonians themselves.
Tito gave them the name "Macedonia" only for territorial purposes, so they can invade the (Greek) historic Macedonia called the same name to get an access to the Aegean sea. But Tito's dream had and will never happen: not today and not in the future.

My Greek neighbour, Yes there was a Macedonian language, just as there was an Illyrian, Thracian, Scythian and many more that did not survive the centuries(except for a few Macedonian words)! Yes, Pella is in Greece now, because of the balken war! Yes, some Macedonian kings were in the olympics,because of them wanting themselves to be Greek(hellenized) so that they could feel more royal over their people, who spoke Macedonian and had their own culture and politics!Yes I'm sure the slavs know they came in the 6th century and ancient Macedonians didn't speak slavic, but you must understand that many [...]

Read the full comment cultures and languages have come and gone through Macedonia, but what remains constant is the Macedonian consciousness that remained throughout the years and still is alive today!!

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To "greek myth": Alexander is born in Pella, which is a greek city, and is actually in Greece, not in Skopje. I think that tells everything...
Alexander was Macedonian, therefore Greek, just like Athenians or Cretans at that time.
Macedonian ethny, nor language, never existed. End of the story.

Alexander spoke Macedonian? Does a Macedonian language ever exist? Tell me this is a joke...

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Yasso Greeks, Why do you always rely on Alexander the Great to prove Greek history is tied to Macedonian? It was he who called out to his guards in Macedonian, when he needed help and it was he who spoke to his troops in Macedonian to understand, not Greek! Except for a couple of Macedonian kings there is no other Macedonian claiming Greek heritage to prove he was Greek and why would you have to prove if the greeks already thought they were! What I'm trying to explain to you Greeks is that, even if the Macedonians were speaking a [...]

Read the full comment dialect of Greek (which I don't), I contend that a language alone does not define a people and the people of the region do. Since we are talking about 3000 years, the region of Macedonia has had many cultures and languages throughout history to the present day and have always referred to themselves as Macedonian!! I am gratefull to world that it is finally started to reconize Macedonia except for you Greeks. What a pity. P.S. Alexander was born in Pella!

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A couple of questions for the slavs out there?

1)If Macedonians were not Greek then why were they participating in the Olympic Games as far back as Alexanders Great Grandfather?As we all know, only Greeks were allowed to participate.
2) If Macedonians werent Greek, then why did they spread the Greek language to Asia and the cities they founded and conquered?

I look forward to your replies to these questions..

greek myth, you are not objective about the historical facts. I have expressed all the arguments below and it seems it is not enough to convince you that Alexander was Greek, that he was born in Greece, and Macedonia is a greek region since 3000 years.

You still try to distinguish Greeks from Macedonians. Why to do it? It's like you distinguish Muscovites from Russians, Berliners from Germans : does it have sense? No I guess...

It is one thing to pretend yourself to be Macedonian, you are free to be called [...]

Read the full comment whatever you want, that is your problem.

But it is another thing to refute everytime the hellenic nature of Macedonia and try to create an ethny which never existed. You cannot ignore the capital of Macedonia, Pella, is in Greece, and Alexander was born in Edessa, another greek city.

This show a bad will from your part and also a pinch of ethno-fanatism, which cannot be tolerated.

Greeks, Macedonia had it's own ancient culture, medieval culture, and modern culture and it was all Macedonian! Stop pretending your Greek culture with Macedonian!Seventy years of Greek rule doesn't make it so!!

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Why would you like to distinguish Greeks from Macedonians? It's like you distinguish Athenians from Greeks. This is a non-sense.

Macedonian ethny do not exist. Macedonians are exactly similar like Athenians, Spartians or Cretans: they are all greek people, they spoke Greek, they believed in greek gods, they share the same history. All those people got unified in the same state, Greece.
Also Alexander was Macedonian, therefore Greek. "Alexandros" is a Greek name and not slavic as far I know... Alexander spoke Greek and macedonian language do not exist and never exist. What kind [...]

Read the full comment of History do you try to invent?

You completely misunderstand the History and your reasoning is not logic.

And Slav's never fought in the Alexander's conquest. They come 1000 years later in that region. That do not make you the inheritors of Alexander at all...

If you really want to be Macedonians, then you have to be Greeks and to learn the greek language as Alexander the Great. For those reasons, you have to express respect to Greece. Insults against Greece are insults against the Alexander's legacy.

A few & simple explanations about why Macedonia is Greek are on this video. I think it tells everything and any further explanations are unecessary...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-oHivXjiX_w&feature=PlayList&p=885604E44484F251&index=1

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hey mate we are Macedonians. why would we call our selves somthing we are not. we are Macedonians we have been calling our selves Macedonians for the past 5000 years our Grandparents where Macedonians. You can call us what u want but we know the Truth we are the True Macedonians of Alexander the Great and our people fought for Macedonia not for Skopje. Macedonia has been a live for 5000 years.

while your Counrty Greece was formed and named in the 1830s which makes your country 179 years old. so you cant have any relation [...]

Read the full comment to the Macedonians. the Vlahs are the first founders of Macedonia then the slavic people but the Greeks where never then in that time.

Alexander the Greats mum is a ancinet Iiyian which makes her today a Albanian and Alexander the Greats Dad is a Macedonian

Ancient Athens was a Iiryian tribe

Solonika is Macedonian its solonika

the word thressalonik is a roman word the word thress was founded by the ancinet THRESSILIANS They are a Roman Tribe that found ruled macedonia at that time 146 BC The word Skopje was also found but the ancinet word for skopje is Skupi also founded in 146BC by the ancient Romans.

Slav's have nothing to do with Macedonia. Macedonians are Greeks, just like Athenians. You are Vardars and your country is Skopje.

I don't understand why you would like so much to ressurect Alexander in the 21th century, while there is any history that authorize you to link Skopje with Greece.

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there is about 2.5 Million Vlahs in Greece and they are not allowed to be called Vlahs or Macedonians and in republic of Macedonia there is about 100,000 Vlahs and in serbia there is about 60,000 and in australia there is about 10,000 we are the True Macedonians of Alexander the Great and our Kingdom was called Macedonia so we cant be anything else

the True Macedonians are the
(Vlah) People the term Vlah was given to our people in the Bzy Times but we are not Vlahs we are Macedonians the term Vlah is just a slang word that the people gaves us at that time.


Vlah + Slavic = Macedonians

The word Greece or Greek or Hellenic never existed in Alexander the Greats Time the these three words where created in the 1830s. How can a state so new be related to anything so ancient like Macedonia.

Macedonia is 1 of the oldest names in History its over 5000 years old the word Macedonia in (Vlah) means tall somthing long like a tree.

the (Vlah) People are the True Macedonians of Macedonia we are the first then the slavic people the Slavic people are More Macedonians then the Greeks.

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Read the full comment /> because greece only occupied Macedonia in the 1913 before that date Macedonia was never part of Greece.

Macedonia was divided in to Three in 1913 against the Macedonian Whishes Greece recived 51% Serbia recevied 40% and Bulgeria recevied 9% when these three states occupied these lands they quickly changed there names greece changed it to Northern Greece and serbia changed it to sourthern serbia and then later changed the name again to Vardarska Bonavina and Bulgeria changed the name to Prini it wasnt to 1945 when the Macedonians from Serbia occupied Macedonia won there freedom and where allowed to be called Macedonians and the state was called Macedonia. then in 1989 when Greece found out that Macedonia was going to be indipentent state they quickly change the name to Macedonia feering that the Macedonians are going to claim back there stolen land.

Oh Greeks, What has become of the glorious minds and philosophers of ancient times! You modern Greeks embody the essence of stupidity. I am ashamed of your tactics,is insults and repetition the only means you have! I fought for Greece, not some fringe barbarian country called Macedonia. Please except your name Hellas and be proud, don't try and steal some other country's name with some flimsy and debatable historical facts. I know you are of mixed blood, but the world is not a perfect place. So,show some balls and say your sorry and play nice.
P.S. Stop blackmailing [...]

Read the full comment the E.U. and Nato.

FYROM can NEVER be known as RoM within International Organizations without settlement of the dispute. So keep delaying, it only makes your pseudo-country more unstable because you cannot unite to decide your future. 2020 is when I call a FYROMian dissolution and absorbtion of territories by Albania, Serbia/Kosovo and Bulgaria. This will also be seamless since the population consists of those ethnicities. Noone will even remember the monkeys formerly known as monkeydonians.

This dude doesnt get out much. You can tell by the amount of posts on here. I wouldnt doubt it if he's one of the compensated bloggers by Gruevski, paid to post anti-Greek and pro-FYROMian posts.

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Forget what Dr Duck or Cornelius says. This is just a brainwashed child that may indeed read and be educated, but from propagandist texts, which do not allow him to see the clear truth. FYROM's founder and the clear "father" of the Pseudo-Macedonian Republic of FYROM, Mr. Kiro Gligorov said the following...

a. The former President of The FYROM, Kiro Gligorov said: “We are Slavs who came to this area in the sixth century ... we are not descendants of the ancient Macedonians" (Foreign Information Service Daily Report, Eastern Europe, February 26, 1992, p. 35).
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Read the full comment />
b. Also, Mr Gligorov declared: "We are Macedonians but we are Slav Macedonians. That's who we are! We have no connection to Alexander the Greek and his Macedonia… Our ancestors came here in the 5th and 6th century" (Toronto Star, March 15, 1992).

Is Dr Duck going to prove the founding father wrong? I think not, because as he stated himself, he is not even a FYROMian. He is not Greek. Therefore he does not know the issue as well as he thinks he does. And if indeed he does understand it, then he still cannot prove Kiro wrong. This is not the only high ranking FYROMian to say this. Here are some others...

c. On 22 January 1999, Ambassador of the FYROM to USA, Ljubica Achevska gave a speech on the present situation in the Balkans. In answering questions at the end of her speech Mrs. Acevshka said: "We do not claim to be descendants of Alexander the Great … Greece is Macedonia’s second largest trading partner, and its number one investor. Instead of opting for war, we have chosen the mediation of the United Nations, with talks on the ambassadorial level under Mr. Vance and Mr. Nemitz." In reply to another question about the ethnic origin of the people of FYROM, Ambassador Achevska stated that "we are Slavs and we speak a Slav language.”

d. On 24 February 1999, in an interview with the Ottawa Citizen, Gyordan Veselinov, FYROM'S Ambassador to Canada, admitted, "We are not related to the northern Greeks who produced leaders like Philip and Alexander the Great. We are a Slav people and our language is closely related to Bulgarian." He also commented, “There is some confusion about the identity of the people of my country."

e. Moreover, the Foreign Minister of the FYROM, Slobodan Casule, in an interview to Utrinski Vesnik of Skopje on December 29, 2001, said that he mentioned to the Foreign Minister of Bulgaria, Solomon Pasi, that they "belong to the same Slav people.”

So will one pro-FYROMian blogger chnage the mind of educated persons? I think not. Dr Duck save it for yor own FYROMian parties. Your logic does not apply in the real world.

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Yes, yes, we know your response already. It will either be another useless analogy of trying to compare apples to oranges, or some German or northern European analogy. Or you will just simply blow these off as if you've heard them before, or they are only used by pro-Greek bloggers. The truth remains either way you want to spin your response. Kiro said it best. I say it this way...

I am Macedonian, therefore Greek.

Mr Duck, why the negative spin on Greece's position on this dispute? Can't you understand that the region of Macedonia has always been a Greek Kingdom since the time of Homer? Do any of the ancient historians quote in saying that the Macedonian kingdom as slavic/bulgarian? No!
Did Aleaxander the Great spread the Greek culture into the world? Yes!
Even an Anglo idiot myself knows that the so called "Modern Slav speaking Macedonians" moved into the balkan region after 600 AD. They had nothing to do with the Kindom of Ancient Macedonia.

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