@aristotle: "Romania is in an interesting position: one the one hand it is Romanian citizens who got thrown out of Northern Ireland, on the other hand Romania itself is highly intolerant of its Hungarian minority in Transylvania."

Romanian gypsies were trown out of Northen Ireland, we all know about the gypsie problem here in Estern Europe we don't have to hide it and to call ourselves gypsies (you have many gypsies in Greece around 300-350k). The gypsie problem is an European problem mon cher. There were no media hype in Romania about this problem, we don't really care what our gypsies are doing outside of the country.

About hungarian minority, it seems that you don't know nothing about it. The are many hungarian that can't speak romanian and they are born and raised in Romania! They learn in hungarian at school (romanian language is thought like a foreign language). If you go in Covasna and want to buy something and ask in Romanian they will not serve you!!! (they will pretend that they can't speak romanian).
UDMR (the hungarian party) was in the rulling coallition in Romania sice the fall of communism (so they rulled Romania for 19 years even if the Hungarians represent 6-7% of the total population).

They are celebrating only the Hungarian national day, when romanian people are trying to celebrate our national day they are marching and chanting anti-romania slogans...
Btw. there is a fascist(anti-romanian, anti-jewish, anti-gypsies etc) party banned in Hungary but not in Romania!! they are free to express thire anti-romania thought in Romania.

Now the problem between us is the Aurtonomy of the Sekeley Region (2 counties - Harghita and Covasna were the hungarians are majority - around 70-85% of the total population). But Romania is a Republic and the romanian law and Constituion ban anything that segregating based on Religion and Ethnicity. They have the right to use Hungarian language in every institusion from Hargita and Covasna, and they are rulled bu hungarians... so ther's no point for Authonomy or for segregation.

When the President of Hungary tried to come in the 'autonomus region of the hungarians' (this dosen't exist) in Romania for the nationa day of Hungary, using a military plane and escoreted by millitary hellicopters and jet planes he was refused entry... So we were accused of racism and xenophobia :)) (later he was alound entry, when he took a regular plane)

Now tell me would the Greeks do the same thing about thire minority? no I don't think so baceuse many minorities are not recognised there and they don't have 1% of the romanian hungarian minority's right.

Please inform yourself before talking because you know sh!t about Romania. I have many hungarian friend (I live close to the hungarian border in Satu Mare county) and many of them feel more romanian then hungarian. From outside it's seems that were killing eachother every day but it's totaly different...

Greek Veto - no, you misunderstood me. The recent EU study actually said that NORTHERN IRELAND was the most "bigoted" region of Europe. I think it restricted itself to current EU member-states, so Northern Macedonia wouldn't have been included.

Romania is in an interesting position: one the one hand it is Romanian citizens who got thrown out of Northern Ireland, on the other hand Romania itself is highly intolerant of its Hungarian minority in Transylvania.

"can you cite any genuine statistics to support your case about FYROM being the most bigoted region of Europe ?"

This can't be proved with statistics. That's a cultural fact...

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Well, Best Civilisation is right about "democracy" in ancient Greece - it was more than a bit "men only", slaves were encouraged, and foreigners were "barbaroi".

And Pericles' famous Funeral Oration was specifically addressed to " O Andres Athenaioi" (O men of Athens), which rather excluded women, non-Athenian Greeks,and foreigners, so it was hardly the model of modern-style democracy that today's Greece likes to claim it was.

(Come to think of it. every other Classical Greek speech I studied in school always started with "O Andres Athenaioi". It was never "O Andres kai Gunaikes Athenaioi" (O men and women of Athens), and never "O men and women of Greece, either" (I will spare everybody my rendition of ancient Greek for this one !)

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to "Greek Veto" - can you cite any genuine statistics to support your case about FYROM being the most bigoted region of Europe ? The EU study that identified Northern Ireland rather suggested otherwise.

I'm not sure where the study placed Greece, except that it was rather high up on the list, both of bigotry and of corrupt politicians in the public perception.

Thanks - efkharisto - spasibo

The most bigoted and intolerant part of Europe is FYROM/Vardar, a pseudo-country of robbers with the worse politicians ever.
Don't try to invent something else with fake statistics, please. People are not blind. Thank you.

True - the recent violence in Northern Ireland against Romanian nationals shows that bigotry and intolerance are still rife in the Province, while the UDA (Ulster Defence Association) has still not put its arms "beyond use", although the IRA did so several years ago as part of the Good Friday Peace Agreement. The "Irish Troubles" of 1921-26 in what is now the Republic of Ireland are also all part of the same long-drawn-out process.

Recent impartial studies have statistically suggested that Northern Ireland as a whole is the most bigoted and intolerant part of Europe (it even beats Albania !)
This may well (alas) be true.

Aristotles
Everybody understands the reason for you playing dumb,
The attrocities that occured in
nothern IRELAND

Sorry - type on date of 30 Years War. Should be 1618-48.

Julius - I'm afraid that mis-applied "philotimo" is what has been wrong with modern Greece (and Greek Cyprus) for quite some time. I don't recall Ancient Greece having quite the same "machismo" concept of it.

The reason that I didn't answer your previous post was simply that I couldn't make sense of it ! (and what have the 15-th century Wars of the Roses got to do with anything ?) If you want to cite bloody conflicts, you omitted the Thirty Years War 1618-18 in Germany, Czech Republic, and Austria.

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I am sorry, Aristo-civilisation, but Greek civilisation has had several shameful moments in the twentieth century - the affair of the Pontian Greeks in 1924-26, and (worst of all) the Greek Civil War of 1946-49.

I would not like to see another similar disaster over former Jugoslav Macedonia. "Philotimo" has its limits, and I feel that it is driving Greek politics too firmly. A dose of pragmatic realism might be no bad thing.

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Greece has the best civilization ever. They are the funder of the democracy, the humanity and all the principles you have today are thanks to Greece. Don't be jealous, because we have the greatest history ever, and you, Fyromiac, nothing.

You should be respectful towards Greece, your mothercountry, Mikrospela!

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Origins - There are several theories about the origins of the Greek language. One theory suggests that it originated with a migration of proto-Greek speakers into the Greek peninsula, which is dated to any period between 2500 BC and 1700 BC. Another theory maintains that the migration into Greece occurred at a pre-proto-Greek (late PIE) stage, and the characteristic Greek sound-changes occurred later.

Linear B - The first known script for writing Greek was the Linear B syllabary, used for the archaic Mycenaean dialect. Linear B was not deciphered until 1953. After the fall of the Mycenaean civilization, there was a period of about five hundred years when writing was either not used, or nothing has survived to the present day. Since early classical times, Greek has been written in the Greek alphabet, said to be derived from Phoenician. This happened about the time of Homer, and there is one obscure, fleeting reference in Homer's poetry suggesting that he might have been aware of writing in Linear B.

Ancient Greek Dialects

.In the archaic and classical periods, there were three main dialects of the Greek language, Aeolic, Ionic, and Doric, corresponding to the three main tribes of the Greeks, the Aeolians (chiefly living in the islands of the Aegean and the west coast of Asia Minor north of Smyrna), the Ionians (mostly settled in the west coast of Asia Minor, including Smyrna and the area to the south of it), and the Dorians (primarily the Greeks of the coast of the Pelopennesus, for example of Sparta, Crete and the southernmost parts of the west coast of Asia Minor). Homer's Iliad and Odyssey were written in a kind of literary Ionic with some loan words from the other dialects. Ionic, therefore, became the primary literary language of ancient Greece until the ascendancy of Athens in the late fifth century. Doric was standard for Greek lyric poetry, such as Pindar and the choral odes of the Greek tragedians.

Attic Greek - a subdialect of Ionic, was for centuries the language of Athens. Most surviving classical Greek literature appears in Attic Greek, including the extant texts of Plato and Aristotle, which were passed down in written form from classical times.

Hellenistic Greek - Koine - As Greeks colonized from Asia Minor to Egypt to the Middle East, the Greek language began to evolve into multiple dialects. Alexander the Great (356 BC-323 BC) was instrumental in combining these dialects to form the "Koine" dialect (Greek for "common"). Imposing a common Greek dialect allowed Alexander's combined army to communicate with itself. The language was also taught to the inhabitants of the regions that Alexander conquered, turning Greek into a world language. The Greek language continued to thrive after Alexander, during the Hellenistic period (323 BC to 281 BC). During this period the Septuagint, a Greek translation of the Hebrew Bible, appeared.

For many centuries Greek was the lingua franca of the Roman Empire. It was during Roman times that the Greek New Testament appeared, and KoinÈ Greek is also called "New Testament Greek" after its most famous work of literature.

Greek Language

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At a boy Greeks. Keep up the good work and you will convince the world, Aegean Macedonia belongs with the rest of Macedonia!!

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After consideration of Pella's detailed posts, I have to express my apologies there to all the Greek people I have offended.
I'm sorry... I've been brainwashed by politicians since I was born and now I know the truth. Macedonia belongs to Greece, no doubt for it.
From now, I will distinguish both countries and call FYROM with his real name: The Republic of Vardaska.
Thanks to Pella to have enlightened me and sorry for all the troubles.

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To Heartbreaker

I agree with you that there has always been an ancient Macedonian concsiousness it so happens to be Greek not Slavic. Your own president admitted to the world that you people have nothing to do with Ancient Greek Macedonia. you are a product of Yugoslavia .

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To Aries and Macedonia belongs to Greece; Macedonia had already conquered Greece once before and this time we will conquer the deception of some historians, Greeks and philhellenes against Macedonia. Macedonian consciousness exists and has since ancient times!!

Thank You, I hope all Greeks are in agreement with Pella. With those arguements it leaves the world no alternative but to continue it's support of Macedonia. P.S. I believe that before the Ottomans, the Byzantines called themselves Romans!

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The way I see things is that there are a lot of unanswered questions here and a lot of topic changing going on especially by Greeks here. The main focus is the 1913 Bucharest Treaty not ancient times. The main issues are the attrocities committed against the Macedonian people. If Serbs got bombed by NATO for committing genocide against the Albanians in 1999, what are the consequences for Greece committing genocide and ethnocide against the Macedonian people. A geographical area called Macedonia for milleniums has a right to be recognized as Macedonia today. Why don't the Greeks change the name "Hellenic Macedonia" since its a lie anyway.

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To Heartbreaker
dont underestimate the Greek Spirit

To the Greeks. I concede your military is sufficient to overrun Macedonia, but your spirit and patriotism is not greater than ours, as we are fighting for a country, not a region! As Herodotus states, thence they migrated to Dryopis, and finally to the Peloponnnese, and so will the modern Greek!!

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To heartbreaker or who-ever.
Will it be public or private your pick.

Heartbreaker you speak like you have options, in your statement you say that you allow us to have the Aegean that we forcefully took. Let me give a little eye opener the Greek Military is the best equipped and trained in the region .Please attempt to take one foot into our sacred Greece and I will guarantee you that within 12 hours the Greek Flag will fly in the city of Skopje. Stop living in wonderland and come back to reality we simply took back what was ours in the first place…...ZITO I ELLAS ZITO I MAKEDONIA

to heartbreaker
Now i quite understand ,you do not want me to recall Meligala and other atrocities do you ? by the
way the correct spelling is Makronissos, and not Makronakos.
check your sources.
Very dark period in Greek history which the historians wwill we able to sort out in about 50 years.

to jeannut aka aries. bravo greek! insult,demean, and belittle. why don't you bring back makronakos prison so you can torture and kill macedonians again!!

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sorry typos "jeannot" is Aries

DUCK ISLAND
When you read some posts here
the only thing that crosses one's
mind Is that its crowded with nerds
most mildly put.
Please read carefully my post to heartbreaker and then read his
Posts totally contradicting themselves
Is it language barrier i really
can't say OR ITS LUNACY.
Under this circumstances i must sometimes give credit to Pella
whose monolithic posts are quite
excusable.
Nous avons tous compris que Dick
est Duck.
En ce qui concerne BUCKET ou Buck cela reviens
au meme "Ca suffit" en francais "
“Basta Cosi" en italien.
"Preshtani vetche" en bulgare.

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Is that all you Greeeeks can do is copy ones statements and change some nouns around. Well done! As to Aries Pella epithany.I would answer their points thusly 1. I don't want every thing my way,just mostly. 2. I never said that. 3. That's your interpretation. 4. It's called a slavic language the same as Russian, Polish, Serbian and Bulgarian and traces it's roots to the indo- european languages. 5. Read it again correctly. 6. Scholars such as Borza, Badian, Green, Bostworth and many more disagree with your point. 7. Your starting to sound like zealot. 8. It was Greece who made laws to change names and places in Macedonia to wipe out any existence of it's true inhabitants. 9. We already compromised by allowing to keep Aegean Macedonia in which you forcefully took.

Pella
A typo error
But if they push too hard (we) must have the guts to say "NO MORE OF THIS s... THE BUCKET STOPS HERE" since all diplomatic efforts
have or should have failed.

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Pella
First of all i didn't imply a thin g about your personal life.
Ssecond you have not read my post
to heartbreaker with name ARIES.
Didn't you understand what i wanted to imply? IT IS PURELY POLITICAL.I come from a place very remote to Vardarska as you call it
and i am very respectfull to anybody. One thing i cannot tolerate is totalitarian ways of
thinking "to apofasizo kai diatasso" and the "black or white
logic" they make me kick.
one final point please do not even try to imply anything about my patriotism to me.

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pella ,my man
first how about, some very short english lessons
the is no word such as argumentations( syzhthseis) in
the correct usage is arguments
the " i am fed up with argumentations" english transileration of greek "varethika tis syzhthseis" is not correct
the correct options are "no more
arguments" or "stop arguing"
the evidence is evidence and requires no proof" is better than "doesn't needs more argumentation"
ela na me koyniseis tora.
Your equations deppict a person ressembling to another shcizoid totalitarian personality from the opposite bank Peter.
ela na me ksanakouniseis.
you are a disgrace most mildly put.

To heartbreaker.
You people want to have everything your way, it simply doesn’t work that way .
1)Your propaganda machine has recently launched a new song
Called “katili Grci” “Greek murderers”.
2. you won’t or cannot understand that no reopening of
the treaty of Bucharest 2013 will ever occur.
3)You mis-interpretate historical facts if they
do not suit your nationalistic views.
4) You deny your Bulgarian past completely
You create a language which is 90% Bulgarian
10 % Serbian and are/were forced to call it
Macedonian (Comintern , Titoism, and so on ).
5)Your constitution contains two articles with expansionist
content.
6)Your propaganda uses some strictly academic mind games issues on Hellenic origins in Bernal's, theories which have been refuted by many academics worldwide , as step-stones.
for Anti Hellenic verbal pogroms.
7)Your stupid propaganda has claims on Bulgarian and Greek territory.
8)You regularly make public and prohibited use of symbols and names which are not yours.
9)You do not want to compromise with a strictly defined geographically compound name .
Greece has compromised a lot regarding that point
Wake up and face some facts for your own sake,stop being fanatics.

I have seen seen a lot of INSCRIPTIONS written in Greek at the Sofia Archeological museum
ancient Greek Thracian and Byzantine have you people heard
about Byzantium.
you should know that at villayet of Monastir now Bitola there were at least there were 477 greek
schools with 27.000 pupils and 676
greek teachers.
there is also a Greek cemetery there.
So before anyboby jumps into conclusions i suggest he drops
fanatism opens some books and drops totalitarian views.

To Pella
as for you i will take care of in due time.

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Greek insistance with associateing greek ancient history to modern Macedonia seems to be wearing a bit thin. Greeks have always been a very small minority in Macedonia until the exchange of population between Greece and Turkey in the 1920's. If you Greeks think this justifies a Greek ownership of Macedonia then nothing will change your minds,but the rest of the world doesn't see it your way.P.S. Please stop bringing up the fact that there were written Greek inscriptions all over Macedonia and Thrace, since it was the only written language of the area at the time ,makes your statements idiotic!

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Pella
Now i am convinced that cannot
do anything more but cut and paste
and really sorry about that.

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Well it didn't long to prove my point. Thanks to Pella whose parents or grandparents were probably a part of that exchange between Turkey and Greece,which swelled the population of Macedonia upwards of 600,000 Greeks. So keep up your bullying,ridicule and demeaning Macedonians all you want Greek but the world is watching and sees your ignorance. P.S. Boris I'm on your side but Aries is right get your history correct and debate with accuracy and truth, which will never let you down.

Macedonians in Denial about the Name Issue Dispute with Greece


Faced with an unprecedented choice between their identity and their future, Macedonians resort to a classic psychological defense mechanism: denial. Greece demands that the Republic of Macedonia change its name, or else forget about its Euro-Atlantic aspirations: NATO membership and EU accession. Macedonians react with horror and revulsion to such truly unprecedented bullying. Unable to face reality, they collectively retreat to fantasy.

FANTASY NUMBER 1: Macedonia will not be asked to change its Constitutional name

Macedonian intellectuals and politicians like to pretend (and usually succeed in convincing themselves) that Greece will demand only the change of Macedonia's name in international settings, bilateral relations, and multilateral organizations.

REALITY: Macedonia will be required to change its constitutional name.

FANTASY NUMBER 2: Macedonia is actually negotiating with Greece

REALITY: Greece is negotiating this issue with the United States and, to a lesser extent, with certain members of the European Union. Macedonia is not a party to the negotiations and is completely irrelevant in this context. It will be presented with a "take it or leave it" solution. If it doesn't take it, it will pay a heavy price, both internally (as its restive minorities rebel) and externally (as it is further excluded from the mainstream of the international community).

Thus, Macedonia was utterly shocked by the Greek veto that prevented its accession to the alliance in the NATO Bucharest Summit in April 2008. But this move was coordinated well in advance with both the USA and the EU (they were not happy about it, but they were fully informed and apprised of the Greek decision). They simply did not bother to keep Macedonia in the picture.

On March 30, 2008 (days before the NATO summit took place), I published this text in the Long Beach Chronicle:

"High-placed NATO officials informed the Chronicle a few weeks ago that, if the negotiations between Macedonia and Greece regarding what has come to be known as "the name issue" fail, NATO will invite Macedonia to join the alliance, effective June 30, 2009, and conditioned upon a resolution of its bilateral bone of contention with its much larger neighbor by said date."

FANTASY NUMBER 3: America and many European countries are friends of Macedonia and regard Greek behavior and demands as atrocious.

REALITY: While the United States and the majority of the member-countries of the European Union indeed regard Greek conduct as inexcusable and disruptive, they will all, without exception, side with Greece against Macedonia. This is because Greece is richer, a key member of NATO's ever-more-crucial southern plank, and an important trading partner of many countries. Macedonia, by comparison, is of very limited importance. Hence, it has no leverage.

Macedonia's only hope is to influence American decision-makers through international public opinion; to act against the Greek position in a variety of multilateral and judicial institutions; and to cooperate with core constituencies in the United States in order to change the minds of legislators and bring them to its side.

FANTASY NUMBER 4: Even if there is a referendum in Macedonia on a proposed solution, the West will make sure that it succeeds

REALITY: Nikola Gruevski and his government will not publicly support any solution that they (secretly) find unacceptable. At best, Gruevski will remain neutral and leave it to the people to decide. Gruevski will not collaborate with the International Community in perpetrating what he regards as the coerced abrogation of Macedonian's natural rights.

FANTASY NUMBER 5: The name issue is very important to the ruling coalition.

REALITY: The name issue is a distraction. Gruevski's main priorities are economic growth and prosperity and nation-building, based on history, both modern and ancient. The name issue is not as important to him as it is to many of his detractors. He is willing to wait out the storm, even if it means later NATO and EU accession. He does regard the name issue as a failure and does take it personally. But he will not let his emotions affect his policies.

FANTASY NUMBER 6: Gruevski is using the name issue to gain political points

REALITY: Gruevski feels very deeply and authentically about this issue. As a person, he reacts badly to injustice and pressure. He hates being blackmailed. He becomes very stubborn when subjected to arm-twisting. On the other hand, it is true that he is overly-sensitive to his rating and popularity and is, indeed, doing everything he can to evade the name issue and put it on the back-burner because he believes that the problem cannot be solved without utterly unacceptable Macedonian concessions. He is a pragmatist, so he concentrates on the here and now and on what can be achieved in the sphere of the economy.

Sam Vaknin ( http://samvak.tripod.com ) is the author of Malignant Self Love - Narcissism Revisited and After the Rain - How the West Lost the East. He served as a columnist for Global Politician, Central Europe Review, PopMatters, Bellaonline, and eBookWeb, a United Press International (UPI) Senior Business Correspondent, and the editor of mental health and Central East Europe categories in The Open Directory and Suite101.

Pella I think you can do better than that -copy paste-

Pella I think you can do better than that -copy paste-

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Boris
Bravo,Your profound knowledge of history astonishes me deeply have you a doctorate or postdoctoral diploma ???

How can Alexander the Macedonian be Greek when no Greeks existed those times? This is an anachronism, a nonsense talk for the fools
The word Greek or Hellenic was used for the first time in 1855 AD, Alexander lived 333-323 BC when present greeks were living in the Altay mounts and Casbec in Caucasus. That's why we call the Greeks Pontius or Caucasians.

How can Alexander the Macedonian be Greek when no Greeks existed those times? This is an anachronism, a nonsense talk for the fools
The word Greek or Hellenic was used for the first time in 1855 AD, Alexander lived 333-323 BC when present greeks were living in the Altay mounts and Casbec in Caucasus. That's why we call the Greeks Pontius or Caucasians.

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Ponti,karamalis and other greek groups exchanged from turkey. This is your your typical response ever since you came to Macedonia from the !920's on. You bully, insult, torture ,riducle and demean true Macedonins. You try to link two historical figures of royality (who thought at the time that it might be convenient to be hellnic)to greece and then try to persuade the world that Macedonia is greek. Well the world didn' buy it! All that's left for you now is to bully,insult,ridicule and demean true Macedonins. Get your history right and debate with intelligenc. Plato,Socrates and Aristotle would be ashamed of you!!

It never ceases to amaze me how uneducated you people from Skopje are. no wonder your politicians can brain wash you into believing that you are the pure Macedonians. Allow me to give you a tour of my Greek Macedonia. lets tour Kavala and phillipous
Where Alexander was born all ancient relics clearly show Macedonians spoke and dictated in the Greek Language. Just because some of your forefathers settled in Greece during the Ottoman invasion does not make them Macedonian. You people speak Slavic similar to Bulgarian and Serbian please be proud of your Slavic heritage and leave our Hellenic heritage alone. you are and never will be Macedonian .zito I ellas zito I macedonia

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What's in a name? It's where you're from


Without Thessaloniki and Pella you Skopjans are no more Macedonian than the Japanese are.

Sorry to break your hearts country men but being born in greece my heritage is Macedonian not Greek. It is whats in your soul that counts. From my father to his father to his father down the years they knew and felt they were Macedonian and so did the vast majority,through roman times,the byzantium years and ottoman empire. So take heart,greece has a glorious past,so do not tarnish it with this unfounded and villainess attack on Macedonia!

Macedonia dose not belong to Greece Macedonia Belongs to the Macedonians. if the greeks feel like there macedonians then they can just come join our country. you cant have to countries

the person that talks about brainwashed, how about your counrty there are about 2.5 Million Vlah people in Greece there about 1.5 Million in Macedonia in Greece the Vlah people are the True Macedonians even the president of Greece 10 years ago was a Vlah.

the Vlah people in Greece had no rights how can a tribe that first discoverd macedonia have no rights its there home land.

How can Macedonia be Greek or Greece or Hellenic when these three words never existed in Alexander the Greats Time.the newley formed state greece was created in the 1830s, so how can a state so young have any relation to somthing so ancient the truth is they cant. the Country Greece is only 179 years old. which the name macedonia is over 5000 years old.


Vlah people are the fist to discover Macedonia there for macedonia is for the Vlah people.

the term (Vlah) was given to our people in the Bzy Times but before that time we where always and still are the True Macedonians of Ancient Macedonia and Macedonia is our Home land no Greek can take that are way from us.

Vlah + Slavic = Macedonian

Let’s keep this simple. DNA is irrelevant what is relevant we are over 2.000.000 Macedonian Greeks in the Province of Macedonia who speak, read, and practice Hellenism .we have the most beautiful province with the Aegean Sea for our playground. We as a nation are very proud of our heritage and surroundings. People from Skopje you have being brainwashed to believe that you are Macedonian on the one hand I am flattered you want to be Macedonian .if you want to be Macedonian then I recommend you join us learn Greek ,and practice Hellenism. hurry before your Albanian Brothers make part of greater Albania.

Whenever we borrow reknowmed persons' name we CARE TO SPELL THEM CORRECTLY at least.
the name is "Attila the Hun"
and not Attila the Hen which is
Attila the Chicken.
Thank you for your attention.

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Dr Truth has got his figures wrong - the "elite of the historians of the world" number far more than the 300 who signed the "Macedonia" letter - the true figure is closer to 16,000.

Also I doubt that the British Museum telephone help-line can easily cope with a complex query about the Rosetta Stone. And furthermore, Dr Truth does not give a useable hyperlink to the "Macedonia - Evidence" website.

Is this guy truly on our planet?

observer

Why dont you ask the question to elite of the historians in the world that have all confirmed that Alexander the great was Greek and Fyrom should stop with their political and historical propaganda.

Please send them a mail with your statement. You can find their contacts under

w w w macedonia-evidence . org

You can also contact their universities , Yale , Oxford , Cambridge , Stanford , Berkley etc etc direct

Also now when you have started your research, why dont you contact the British Museum about the Fyromian theory that the rosetta stone was written , NOT in a Egyptian language(and Greek) , but a dialect of Bulgarian

British Museum
General enquiries
Telephone: +44 (0)20 7323 8000/8299

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Since we're on the subject of Alexander, he and his family do appear to be a less than perfect model for today's youth:

"In 336 BC, while attending the wedding of his daughter by Olympias, Cleopatra and Olympias' brother, Alexander I of Epirus at Aegae, Philip was assassinated by the captain of his bodyguard, Pausanias, who reportedly had a grudge against Philip, who was his former lover.i[›] As Pausanias tried to escape he tripped over a vine and was killed by his pursuers, including two of Alexander's friends Perdiccas and Leonnatus. Alexander was proclaimed King by the Macedonian army and by the Macedonian noblemen at the age of 20. [28]

Alexander began his reign by having his potential rivals to the throne murdered. He had his cousin, the former Amyntas IV, executed, as well as having two Macedonian princes from the region of Lyncestis killed, while a third, Alexander Lyncestes, was spared. Olympias had Cleopatra Eurydice and her daughter by Philip, Europa, burned alive. When Alexander found out about this, he was furious with his mother. Alexander also ordered the murder of Attalus, who was in command of the advance guard of the army in Asia Minor. Attalus was at the time in correspondence with Demosthenes with intentions to restore democracy".


These days, this sounds like British tourists having a bad drunken night in Corfu (I'm being objective here) or Greeks having a bit of a bad time in Omonia Square after a football match. Democracy this is not. A drunken hegemony with a pronounced taste for homicide it certainly is.

Pericles was a much nicer bloke, really......

Actually, "Observer" has rather a good point - I too was always taught in school (when doing my Ancient Greek language and history) that Pericles was the true founder of Ancient Greece and its city-states, and not Alexander the Great at all. Just a thought..

hey hellenes didn't you ever hear of pericles demosthenes agesilaos jason or leonnidis why don't you stick to your own heroes and stop usurping other countries as for speaking elenas why don't you tell the americans to stop speaking english or england might start crying and send it's mighty fleet

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I love how Cornelius provides irrelevant statistics to fuel his propaganda. He provides analogies that only make sense to him to try to prove his point, but only make him look even more foolish.

Answer me this since you know "everything" (teasing you here, we obviously know your intellectual level by the posts you provide - nil)?

What is true "German" and "Slavic" blood, since you provide statistics on Greece's genetics? I did not know of a German or Slav in ancient times. Were they not comprised of Hellenic blood as well at some point, since you like to mix things up? Not to mention your "antic Macedonian" as separate is a complete falsification. The bottomline to this is that you are trying to convince the uneducated that FYROMians are descendants of Macedonians. Your stats prove nothing, except your propagandist nature you fool!

Oh dear Pluto, and there was I wondering whether I'd spelled "telonios" and "grammateus" correctly in Greek ! (True, 'telonios' can also be spelled 'telwnios', if you use the Welsh spelling now increasingly accepted in English - also the "w" looks more like a lower-case omega).

If all that you can find wrong with my argument is one small typo, then it strikes me that I might have a very good point indeed.

Gia sas - gami sou

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Oh so if you've just become Macedonia then why are you not speaking Greek like our ancestors? like Philip? like Alexander?
NIce try though

the macedonians have had many different groups come and stay in their territories over the centuries but the fact remains they've become macedonians and unlike the greeks who think they are a homogenous population from ancient times have accepted this as have 120 other countries so play nice and except the majority

What's with you Skopjans claiming to be Greeks when your ancestors arrived in the Balkans during the Medieval Ages??? Watch your blood pressure now that the Albanians in your country are demanding for a name solution from your immortal gruevski.

Looks your nation was born at the wrong place and time

whats with you greeks everything was just a geographic area(paionia illyria macedonia thrace) why don't you claim the whole mediterranean area since you sent colonies there 2500 years ago p.s. watch your blood pressure you might have a heartattack hurling all those insults Alexander was a MACEDONIAN

Aries, I do not think I'm the only one but I find Cornelius to be quite immature despite how he portrays himself. In one site he rudely comments on some girl's genitals, it seems like he can't take criticism. My question is, what would his children and grandchildren think on such immaturity displayed by an old man? I can understand if he was a teenager but not from a pensioner!

Time to take a bow Cornelius...with dignity, while you still can

Dr Cornelius.
Your comment about Greece's acsession to the EU was really cynical and completely irrevalent
of course the decision was based upon geopoitical reasons. Tell me please do you REALLY think that FYROM ACSENSION WILL HAPPEN because it fills the EU financial criteriae or the so called european path to accession of Turkey if Turkey may be called a european nation. Hell No.
IS Asia Minor called Europe
Georgia,Ajerbadjan,Armenia, are European countries maybe geopolitically Israel too,
Hurray brillant expansionist theory "European Song Contest".
Yes I forgot that "tout dans ce
vil monde se reduit au vil argent
mon vieux".Markets,markets,and markets,is the issue.

Dr Cornelius van Helsing

Are you downplaying the 300 professors from the most respected universities in the world? A neutral EU expert.

ha ha ha ha

Sorry that made me laugh



Indeed you are a Fyromian. I have seen this so many times before.

It is a normal Fyromian trick to publish under false names.

Their main so called historian is published under the name Gandeto to make any credibilty to the propaganda he is writing. But his real names is Josif Grezlovski.

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Dr Truth - if you knew the interminable EU contracts procedures, you would know why consultants sometimes kick their heels waiting ! (The EU contracts handbook is called PRAG - no connection with the Czech Republic, and its 300 dense pages long.)

As for the 300 professors, (a) academicians are rarely politicians or vice versa, and 300 is quite a small number anyway, while (b) - basing countries on former Communist figures, politics, and economic data (let alone blood groups!), how on earth do you think the EU let in Poland, Czech Republic, Slovenia and all the rest ? The worst offenders were actually Bulgaria and Romania, but (as I was in the Ministry at the time in 1982) I can tell you that the amount of "adjustment" of EU rules to accommodate Greek Accession was considerable. Many senior diplomats agree with me that we bent the rules to let Greece into the EU for purely political reasons - economically Greece would never have answered the criteria, and the administration was as corrupt as they come. Hopefully it has improved a bit since - it could hardly have got worse. Sorry to be cynical - but I was there at the time.

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Dr Cornelius van Helsing

As an EU expert I thought you knew there are a lof of criterias to full fill before a country can join EU. But your philosophy is that just ignore them so any , fascist or communist country can join and do their pissing from inside.

Is that the reason you are inbetween jobs?

Any comments to the 300 professors that states that historical truth cant be ignored? and countries can not be based on ex communist propaganda?

The answers are clear: Alexander the Great was Greek, not Slavic, and Slavs and their language were nowhere near Alexander or his homeland until 1000 years later. This brings us back to the geographic area known in antiquity as Paionia. Why would the people who live there now call themselves Macedonians and their land


w w w macedonia-evidence . org

to Pella. Do grow up. Lots of us are EU consultants, but there is a certain amount of "rest time" between projects, so we all spend lots of time on the computer to keep in practice (a bit like pianists do on the keyboard). If you had ever had an EU job yourself (which sounds unlikely from the state of your volatile emotions) you would understand just what I meant.

Avec l'assurance de mes sentiments les meilleurs etc.

Pozdravim

Well, Dr Truth, the short answer is yes: Hungarians want to reopen the 1919 Treaty of Trianon which set their eastern borders, as I have personally heard from their diplomats in London, and Cyprus is bursting to have a go at Kibris in the North. And Greece itself has not been too well-mannered towards Bulgaria (leaving Macedonia to one side for the moment), while Romania has problems with Moldova and TransNistria.

So, it ain't a Happy Club, and to have Macedonia inside it rather than outside is maybe preferable; as the well-known intellectual Vice-Pres. L.B.Johnson put it in 1965 - better to have them inside pissing out than outside pissing in.

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Dr Cornelius van Helsing

The answers are clear: Alexander the Great was Greek, not Slavic, and Slavs and their language were nowhere near Alexander or his homeland until 1000 years later. This brings us back to the geographic area known in antiquity as Paionia. Why would the people who live there now call themselves Macedonians and their land Macedonia? Why would they abduct a completely Greek figure and make him their national hero?"

So what is your comment to the 300 world famouse historians that are creating a movement against the political and historical propaganda the Fyromian government is creating? Is this a seriouse path for a slavic country that wants to join Eu? Do Eu real wants a coutry that is based on ex communist propaganda to join EU?
Do EU realy need/want a country that is hostile to all its neightbours ( Bulgarian , Albania, Greece). Do Eu realy wants a country that has territorial claims on other EU countries? Do eu realy want a country that tries to absurb unrelated history from countries such as , Bulgarian(Tsar Samuil) , Greece (Alexander the great) , Egypt ( Rosetta stone and ancient slavic language).?

Read about it

w w w macedonia-evidence . org

Dr Truth - fair question, but the short answer is "yes". I am an EU consultant very experienced in the region who is currently "between jobs". Keeps me in practice, and keeps you lot on your toes.

(By the way, what's with it with Pella ? She sounds a bit frantic and manic at the same time)

Best regards

Cornelius (authentication: Labanaktis). I suggest you get one yourself - there is come mischief going on in this site, and I'm not sure who is behind it.

Dr Cornelius van Helsing

Nice intellectual reply you gave to Pella.

By the way you are not a Fyromian ,neither are you paid by them, but you have dedicated your life to respond within 5 minutes , to any one who post about Fyrom.

Do you think that is belivable?

Draga Pella - I was about to respond to your other posting about "antic times", to ask what sort of bedroom antics you had in mind. Ah well, clearly a "PT" - promises a lot but gives nothing, although she will collect the fee first, preferably in US$.

As for les "croisieres", speak for yourself if you can afford to go on ocean cruises. I went to Riga and Vilnius by Soviet train, so dream on, Poor Little Rich Girl from the Capitalist South (probably manages a Greek brothel or two). And neither have I been paid one kopeck (or EuroCent) by the Macedonian authorities, as you slanderously imply.

I suggest, "Madame" - in which I mean the words in both senses -that you retreat to your boudoir and try to ensnare some rather more compliant men than me.

Labanaktis sianden vakare (authentication: please translate this before masquerading as me.)

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"The answers are clear: Alexander the Great was Greek, not Slavic, and Slavs and their language were nowhere near Alexander or his homeland until 1000 years later. This brings us back to the geographic area known in antiquity as Paionia. Why would the people who live there now call themselves Macedonians and their land Macedonia? Why would they abduct a completely Greek figure and make him their national hero?"

"The answers are clear: Alexander the Great was Greek, not Slavic, and Slavs and their language were nowhere near Alexander or his homeland until 1000 years later. This brings us back to the geographic area known in antiquity as Paionia. Why would the people who live there now call themselves Macedonians and their land Macedonia? Why would they abduct a completely Greek figure and make him their national hero?"

Dr Truth has, as always, gone on rather lengthily about a single point. Clearly genetics is a sensitive subject to him. Can I suggest that he contact the respective National Blood Transfusion Service in northern Greece and in Macedonia, to verify what the local blood-groups are (this information is "old-technology" and should be easily accessible without any further work). Blood-groups - although a much "coarser" indicator than DNA - have been reliable in Northern Europe in identifying distinct and separate ethnic populations, and I see no reason why this should not be equally feasible in the Balkans.

Authentication code (anyone masquerading as me to translate it, please: "Parasykaite savo pavarde" (and no, it may look like Greek but it isn't)

to the fake Dr Cornelius - (1) learn how to spell properly : the English word is not spelled "poufter", and (2), if you are genuine, please translate my new authentication code: "Parasykite savo pavarde" (It looks and sounds like Greek, but it isn't)

And, anyway, what sort of new Macedonian nation can this be when we and our fathers and grandfathers and great-grandfathers have always been called Bulgarians?

Krste Misirkov, "On Macedonian Matters", Macedonian Review Editions 1974

We are not related to the northern Greeks who produced leaders like Philip and Alexander the Great. We are Slavs and our language is closely related to Bulgarian. There is some confusion about our identity.

Gyordan Veselinov, (Referring to the citizens of FYROM) Ottawa Citizen, February 24, 1999

It is the national identity of these Slav Macedonians that has been the most violently contested aspect of the whole Macedonian dispute, and is still being contested today. There is no doubt that they are southern Slavs; they have a language, or a group of varying dialects, that is grammatically akin to Bulgarian but phonetically in some respects akin to Serbian, and which has certain quite distinctive features of its own... ...In regard to their own national feelings, all that can safely be said is that during the last eighty years many more Slav Macedonians seem to have considered themselves Bulgarian, or closely linked to Bulgaria

Elisabeth Barker, "Macedonia, Its Place in Balkan Power Politics". Westport, CT: Greenwood Press. 1980. pp.

We are not stating by accident that Josip Broz Tito is Jesus Christ for Macedonia, a father and a mother for Macedonia. Because we have, in that time, after NOB, for the first time created a Macedonian alphabet, a Macedonian television, a Macedonian state, a language, a passport, an identity card, a university for the first time, a Macedonian academy for the first time. We, communists, have created the Macedonian Orthodox church.

Slobodan Ugrinovski (Слободан Угриновски), politician of the FYROM and the current leader of the left-wing political party Union of Tito's Left Forces, "Tito e Isus Hristos za Makedonija" ("Tito is Jesus Christ for Macedonia"), A1 TV, FYROM May 04 2009.


This Government considers talk of Macedonian "nation", Macedonian "Fatherland", or Macedonia "national consciousness" to be unjustified demagoguery representing no ethnic nor political reality, and sees in its present revival a possible cloak for aggressive intentions against Greece.

U.S STATE DEPARTMENT Foreign Relations Vol. VIII Washington D.C. Circular Airgram (868.014/26 Dec. 1944)

Wrong Cornelius - no authentication code.

(Authentication code: I am a poufter.)

WWhat happend last time Fyrom and people like "DR" Cornelius van Helsing tried to use DNA as an urgument in this discussion?:

The Fyrom sponsored "Villena"report that was conducted in Madrid by the Antonio Arnaiz-Villena et al.(among them were and Slavamcedonian genetists from FYROM-Skopje University.

Their result was that the Fyromian people was the oldest in Europe and the Greeks where from Ethiopia.

Result after world famouse scientist examined the report:

Shortly after this, three respected geneticists, Luca Cavalli-Sforza, Alberto Piazza and Neil Risch, argued that the scientific limitations of Arnaiz-Villena's methodology. They stated that "Using results from the analysis of a single marker, particularly one likely to have undergone selection, for the purpose of reconstructing genealogies is unreliable and unacceptable practice in population genetics.", making specific allusion to the findings on Greeks (among others) as "anomalous results, which contradict history, geography, anthropology and all prior population-genetic studies of these groups."


Dr Cornelius van Helsing showed of ccourse he is not "neutral" in this discussion". The only people that would be ignorant enough to bring up an unverified report and with the knowledge that previouse DNE reports has been falsified , it can only be some one from Fyrom

There you go, Dr Coreneliuis true face is revealed.

WWhat happend last time Fyrom and people like "DR" Cornelius van Helsing tried to use DNA as an urgument in this discussion?:

The Fyrom sponsored "Villena"report that was conducted in Madrid by the Antonio Arnaiz-Villena et al.(among them were and Slavamcedonian genetists from FYROM-Skopje University.

Their result was that the Fyromian people was the oldest in Europe and the Greeks where from Ethiopia.

Result after world famouse scientist examined the report:

Shortly after this, three respected geneticists, Luca Cavalli-Sforza, Alberto Piazza and Neil Risch, argued that the scientific limitations of Arnaiz-Villena's methodology. They stated that "Using results from the analysis of a single marker, particularly one likely to have undergone selection, for the purpose of reconstructing genealogies is unreliable and unacceptable practice in population genetics.", making specific allusion to the findings on Greeks (among others) as "anomalous results, which contradict history, geography, anthropology and all prior population-genetic studies of these groups."


Dr Cornelius van Helsing showed of ccourse he is not "neutral" in this discussion". The only people that would be ignorant enough to bring up an unverified report and with the knowledge that previouse DNE reports has been falsified , it can only be some one from Fyrom

There you go, Dr Coreneliuis true face is revealed.

Wrong Cornelius - no authentication code.

(Authentication code: wrzescsz - albo szczebrzesyn.)

Authentication code: Your Mom

I kissed a boy and I liked it

A few errors have crept into Dr Truth's memorable contributions.

Firstly, DNA wasn't even "invented" in the 1930s/40s in the time of Hitler.

Secondly, some of the information contained in DNA is already known in conventional "blood group" information, both at individual and at national level, as blood groups vary by nationality and ethnic origin. In Northern Europe all this information is in the public domain - is it so in Greece ? Somehow I think it might not be, but I would be happy to be proved wrong.

Thirdly, academicians are not politicians (or if they are, they tend to be very bad ones ! And vice-versa).

Fourthly, "peer group review" is confined to academia and is frequently an unconstructive process involving the settling of old scores. The commercial world sensibly ignores this and uses patents instead !

Authentication code: rzeczpospolita/ wrzeszcz

Similar to the Feta Cheese debate, Greece is a stubborn Balkan country that should have seen the advantages of integrating Makedonija in NATO. Now I should call on my minions to combat Gossip Girl as she is draws near and you know what they say, there is no rest for the wicked.

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300 of the worlds most famouse historians, from universities such as, Stanford, Oxford , Cambridge , Yale, Vassar, College de France and hundreds of others in the United States and Europe have all stated that the ancient macedons where Greeks.

They also appeal to Fyrom and Fyromian people like "Dr" Cornelius van Helsing to stop with their political and historical propaganda.

Read their letter in

w w w macedonia-evidence . org



"Dr" Cornelius statement that Igeneas study should be objective it is quite laughable. First of all Igenea is a commercial company, their study has not been published or peer reviewed by any seriouse publication or university, secondly no country in the world can claim anything on the base of DNA. The last one who tried that was Hitler.

Sorry, folks, but "Dr Cornelius's true face" is in fact a fake impostor. Do not believe anything that he says.

If he is a true Dr Cornelius, he could easily complete the following authentication phrase (in Polish): W chrszaszcz brzmi...

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300 of the worlds most famouse historians, from universities such as, tanford , Oxford , Cambridge , Yale etc have all stated that the ancient macedons where Greeks. That also urges that Fyrom and Fyromian people like "Dr Cornelius van Helsing's" should stop with their political and historical propaganda.

Read about them in macedonia-evidence . org

A statement that Igeneas study should be objective it is quite laughable. First of all Igenea is a commercial company, their study has not been published or peer reviewed by any seriouse publication or university, secondly no country in the world can claim anythigng on the base of DNA. The last one who tried that was Hitler

to Pelia the frantic - as any good Marxist knows, History is only as good as the last person who wrote the book, so what Karamanlis said is meaningless (except he is a Local Lad from Greek Macedonia, so he will have local political cronies in the area who can "adjust" facts accordingly. )

Seemingly I cannot convince you that I have no connection with either of the Macedonias except as a dispassionate / neutral observer. Mainly because you refuse to believe that any third-country national could possibly support the Skopje Macedonian cause. But there are a lot of us who do...

So dream on, Pelia, and - to put it in my best Lithuanian (which is rather closer to my own ethnic origin) - LABANAKTIS.

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Really, Pelia, you disappoint me. I would have expected a better argument from you than this.

Let me put one back :

ATTILA THE HUN - HUNGARY - ROMANIA/TRANSYLVANIA - HAPSBURG EMPIRE - 1919 TRIANON TREATY - HUNGARY WANTS TRANSYLVANIA RETURNED.

Doesn't really work in today's political terms, does it ?

Authentication: Wrzeszcz

Pelia - don't be simplistic. This is a stupid and immature way of arguing. Let me give you another one:

ATTILA THE HUN - HUNGARY - HAPSBURG EMPIRE - ROMANIA/TRANSYLVANIA - 1919 TRIANON TREATY - COMMUNIST ROMANIA - NICOLAE CEAUSCESCU.

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to Pelia (again) - somehow, despite all my very clear indications to the contrary, you seem to think that I am a citizen of the Republika Makedonija. I am not, nor never have been.

Read the various posts again, and this time get out your English dictionary to help you over the difficult bits.

You will find that I am of Dutch ancestry with EU experience in Poland and Romania, and currently a citizen of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.

Does this help clarify things in your tiny mind ? Hope this is helpful.

to Pelia the "innocent": it was the bloody Swiss government that issued those figures, not the Macedonian one. Do grow up, sunshine.

Alexander the Great is simply not relevant to the modern political era 2500 years later. If you insist that he is relevant, logically we should also take into account the later imperial exploits of Attila the Hun, Charlemagne, Richard I of England with the Crusades (a great mistake !), Holy Roman Emperor Charles V, the Hapsburgs, Peter the Great of Russia, Napoleon (cruelly misjudged by history),and finally I fear Mussolini and Hitler, both of whom left their mark on Greece.

In short, best to deal with today's political issues on today's terms; resurrecting a 2500-year old emperor does not really form part of this process.

Especially as the DNA evidence strongly indicates that Macedonia - along with most other European peoples (except - curiously - the Basques) is of mongrel blood and multi-ethnic origin. As indeed is Greece too.

Wrzeszcz

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to pelia : how can an objective survey be a "fascist concept" (your words) ? Most fascist governments did not like surveys of genuine public data of any sort.

to Pelia - well, clearly I have touched a raw nerve with some objective facts. Truly sorry to have punctured your bubble.

The only way to respond to me is to produce an equally objective DNA survey (NOT carried out in Greece !) that indicates beyond the "Statistically significant" threshold of 5% chance of inaccuracy that the population of Republika Makedonija is over 50% "Hellenic". Only then will you have any chance of influencing the international community in your favour.

By the way, the UN already have the figures I quoted, and assign considerable weight to them.

Authentication code: Wrzeszcz

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Sorry - unfortunate typo (Aries would like this !)

When I said "the populations of Greece and Macedonia are rather less ETHICALLY pure..." I meant of course to say "ETHNICALLY pure".

However, on reflection, maybe the first mis-spelling is a Freudian slip on my part.....

Authentication code: Wrzeszcz

to Pelia -

Well, it is unprofessional to plagiarise, so I should repeat the source of the information below (post by "Macedonia" earlier today.) The Zurich institute that he and I quote is highly reputable and professional (and no - it is not based in Skopje !) This genetic information seems to indicate beyond all peradventure that the populations of both Macedonia and Greece are rather less ethically pure than politics would like. (The presence of German blood can be explained by the habit of the Venetian Empire of using German mercenaries in the 13th-18th centuries. Germany - before its first unification in 1870 - had quite a large "trade" in supplying mercenary soldiers and sailors to any other European power. )

Data follows:

The following is a non-political scientific, non-biased gene study of countries in the Balkans:

Indigenous Peoples in Macedonia
Antic (ancient) Macedonians 30 %
Teuton 20 %
Hellenic People 15 %
Slav 15 %
Illyrian 10 %
Hunnians 5 %
Phoenician 5 %

Indigenous Peoples in Greece
Hellenic People 35 %
Phoenician 20 %
Slav 20 %
Teuton 10 %
Illyrian 10 %
Antic Macedonians 5 %

Greece:
10% Germanic
10% illyrians
20% slavs
20% phoenician
5% macedonian (in north more than 18%)
35% Hellenen


Indigenous Peoples in Bulgaria
Thracians 49 %
Hellenic People 15 %
Slav 15 %
Antic Macedonians 11 %
Phoenician 8 %

Indigenous Peoples in Serbia & Montenegro
Slav 30 %
Illyrian 21 %
Teuton 18 %
Celtic 14 %
Phoenician 9 %
Hellenic People 6 %
Vikings 2 %

Indigenous Peoples in Albania
Illyrian 30 %
Slav 20 %
Thracians 18 %
Phoenician 16 %
Hellenic People 14 %
Vikings 2 %

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The first documented recorded instance of the name "Macedonia" (with the lion motif used until 1945, and now used by one of the Macedonian political parties) dates from 1595 (yes - I'll spell it so there's no chance of a typo - fifteen hundred and ninety-five)

So the name has been around for a few centuries more than Pelia claims.

(By the way, I have a copy of the document concerned.)

My authentication is still "Wrzeszcz". Beware of imitations.

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"Alexander The Great" is totally right there. Tito created all those troubles with naming this south part of Yugoslavia "Macedonia", a name which belongs to the greek heritage. That was definitely a strategy to later absorb one part of Greece, I mean the greek and historic region of Macedonia.

But this problem is mainly the fault of Greek politics who were sleeping during that period and let this provocation against Greek culture and history growing and growing with the years.

Now Slavs are taking advantage of this big misunderstanding and I'm afraid their official name (when first resolved with Greece) will include wrongly the term "Macedonia".

I'm laughing when I read some comments there. There was no slavic immigrants when the (greek) Macedonia was first founded. Slavic race came hundred and hundred years later and never took part of the Alexander's conquest.So ironically they are not part of any Macedonian history or heritage. Slavic people were a troup of Barbares who a thousand year and more later invade one part of the ancient/archaic territory of Alexander. They were always a bunch of stealers and troublemakers. Look how their former country, Yugoslavia, exploded in multiple parts...


But then, if we follow their reasoning, we have to say that Macedonia according to the Alexander conquest, includes also Turkey, the Old Persian Kingdom (Iran, Egypt, Israel...). So they miss totally a point there.

And even if some wars would happen between Greece and Fyrom in the future because of those issues, I think that would be a good opportunity for Greece to get back the entire territorial of one of his regions, I mean the one and unique greek "Macedonia".

Before we all get overwhelmed with rhetoric (and who made the Freudian slip of spelling "Slavs" as "Slaves" ?), I do think that 'Makedonijs' has come up with some very useful figures that deserve serious examination. They do not surprise me, as similar non-political genetic studies in Western Europe have revealed similar results.

What is very interesting about the figures for Macedonia is that they show an equal 15/15 (%) proportion for "Hellenic" and "Slavic" origin, and then reveal that 20% is "Teutonic". I don't disbelieve this at all, as a lot of the Venetian forces of old were recruited in Germany, and Venice has left its legacy all over the Adriatic Sea.

Well done,"makedonija", for introducing a bit of objective quantified information to this increasingly shrill debate.

My personal authentication is still "Wrzeszcz", given that I have imitators who express extreme views under my userID, alas.

Macedonia has always been Greek. The people of FYROM have no connection to Macedonians but are a mix of Bulgarians and Albanians that have been brainwashed under the communist regime of Yugoslavia.

Unlike what most Greeks are lead to believe, everything is not "Greek." Just like every other country in the world, modern Greeks are a mixture of all who have settled and conquered over time.
Second, Ancient Macedonia was NEVER part of the city-states. It was its own seperate kingdom with its own customs, culture, and language. The fact that some Ancient Macedonians could understand the Ancient Greek language does not make them Greek. Today, English and Spanish are the predominant languages in the world. That doesn't make everyone that can speak them English or Spanish.
Finally, its amusing to me that modern Greeks embrace Alexander and the Ancient Macedonians as theirs even though they were conquered by them! Is their any other country in the world that does this??
The real Macedonians are the ones that have fought for the exclusivity of the Macedonian name and culture throughout history- and know that it can only be Macedonian...nothing else

"Alexander" is a greek name, he was Macedonian Greek, just like were the Athenians or Spartians, etc. Pella, the capital of Macedonia, is in Greece and not in FYROM. Macedonia ethny simply is just plain stupid & absurd and a pure invention created by Tito, the great dictator, in order to revendicate later a part of Greece (the south or real Macedonia) to get an access to the Aegean sea. Don't be blind,people and open your eyes on this political issues of this conflict.

Those so called "Macedonians" are poor Slaves who are looking for some identity, because they don't have any history and their fake state is now or late going to implode. If you want to find real Macedonians, that are the habitants of Thessaloniki and the greek region "Macedonia".
Just read a book and the history and don't give attention of the slavic pseudo nationalist/ethnic vision.

The following is a non-political scientific, non-biased gene study of countries in the Balkans:

Indigenous Peoples in Macedonia
Antic (ancient) Macedonians 30 %
Teuton 20 %
Hellenic People 15 %
Slav 15 %
Illyrian 10 %
Hunnians 5 %
Phoenician 5 %

Indigenous Peoples in Greece
Hellenic People 35 %
Phoenician 20 %
Slav 20 %
Teuton 10 %
Illyrian 10 %
Antic Macedonians 5 %

Greece:
10% Germanic
10% illyrians
20% slavs
20% phoenician
5% macedonian (in north more than 18%)
35% Hellenen


Indigenous Peoples in Bulgaria
Thracians 49 %
Hellenic People 15 %
Slav 15 %
Antic Macedonians 11 %
Phoenician 8 %

Indigenous Peoples in Serbia & Montenegro
Slav 30 %
Illyrian 21 %
Teuton 18 %
Celtic 14 %
Phoenician 9 %
Hellenic People 6 %
Vikings 2 %

Indigenous Peoples in Albania
Illyrian 30 %
Slav 20 %
Thracians 18 %
Phoenician 16 %
Hellenic People 14 %
Vikings 2 %


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iGenea says it has markers for ancient Macedonians that are distinct from the markers for ancient Greeks.

Here's an interesting quote from iGenea:
http://www.igenea.com/index.php?content=132&st=287

A(n) antic (ancient) macedonian genetic profile exists and has been discovered through the comparison of archaeological funds (finds) and persons with macedonian roots. These studies enable us to determine the macedonian roots of a person. We have 30% of macedonians in Macedonia, 20% in Greece an minorities in Bulgaria and Albania.

It is very important to differ between politics and genetics, we are a genetic institute and we don't have politic aims. All our data are published under the menupoint "Litterature", here the direct link:
http://www.igenea.com/index.php?content=132&st=287

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to "But Of Course" - as I stated before (but I know you can't read long words so I forgive you), I was not a tourist in Romania, but an EU pre-Accession Advisor to the Romanian government, for several months. I also investigated Romanian orphanages for a well-known UK charity (and that was NOT pleasant work !) So put your tongue where the sun don't shine, if you pardon my french (mets ta langue dans ton cul, if you want the French version).

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But of Course... it figured Dr Corneloius would dismiss or rather minimize this news story. Of course he's spent time there too. He can tell you everything you would like to know about Romanians now as well. He will also tell you about their history and their minorities. Why? Because he spent some time there.

Give me a break. You have no idea what you are talking about sometime. I wonder what your goal is afterall?

I agree with Aries on the "pure ethnicity" point - this is too reminiscent of Hitler's Nazi "herrenvolk" to be comfortable. But Digna has a very interesting point about the 'Mijaci' being the survivors of ancient Macedon. Are they by any chance Illyrians, or part of an older population (presumably non-Hellenic) ?? I would genuinely like to know.

As regards Basescu, as one who has spent a great deal of time in Romania and Moldova rather recently - I would counsel that a great deal of care is required before trusting a Romanian with anything more than your tram ticket. The Moldovans are rather better, but tend to be very glum. (This may have been rather my own fault, as I found it easier to speak Russian with them than Romanian, in order to avoid misunderstandings of the more costly sort. That said, Chisinau is a safe city to walk around at night. This most definitely cannot be said about Bucharest.)

No Nation is pure,
There was once a madman who though
who believed that and that belief costed the world over 25 million dead. THE MADMAN'S NAME ADOLF HITLER HIS BELIEF "THE ARYANS".

world

There is only one tribe that is descendants of Ancient Macedons in FYR Macedonia and they are called the Mijaci, they are from the North Western Vardar Macedonia regions (Mala reka, Galitchnik, Lazaropole) These are the Slavicized Ancient Macedons. The most of the rest of FYR Macedonia are just different "types" of Bulgarians (tribes)

@macedondo you think that the 'greek' macedonians are 100% like the macedion's from Alexander the Great's time? most of you have turkish, tracian, latin blood, even the greek costums look turkish to me...not to mantion the blood after 2000 years of foreign rule of greece...

I guess Basescu has some knowledge of history, ethnology and linguistics. It is crazy for a bunch of mix bred bulgarian slavs to want to be macedonians. The Proud macedonian decendands of Alexander still speak the language of Alexander which is Greek (Undisputable fact, since Alexander Hellenized almost all of western Asia and prts of north Africa). The slavs showed up in the area about 1200 years after alexander. So if that band of people want to be called Macedonians they should embrace their greek roots get Hellenic education, learn history get hellenized or if they really bellieve they are macedonians they should denounce anything slavic about them and get back to their greek roots if they have any.

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