Immigration is a european problem and not only a greek one. And this has any impact on territorial issues.

The case of FYROM is very different. This pseudo-country is more than fragile, especially with a constitution based on distorted historical facts. They are composed not by one, but by lot of nationalities which want themselves to be independant and integrate another neighbour states: Albanians with Albania, Bulgarians with Bulgaria. That's a normal reaction and FYROmians themselves know their model is based on a big mistaka and their uncertain future is in jeopardy.

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Just look at the math boys, debt is tipping the scales and add the immigrant problem and bang there goes Greece!

don't agree - FYROM will catch up with Greece, just as Czech Republic caught up wth Germany.

Greek economy, even in difficulty the last years, is still hundred times better than FYROM's one. So no worries about it.

And I maintain therefore the prophecy: FYROM will be mikroskopjic and disappear from the map in 1-2 years.

I am afraid that "The Prophecy" and "Prediction" are both wrong.
Northern Macedonia will not surpass Greece in GDP in five years, but nor will it disappear either. However, given the state of the Greek economy, the outlook there is less certain.

FYROM will be mikroskopjic and disappear from the map in 1-2 years.

Macedonia GDP will be greater than Greece in 5 years

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The project of statues of FYROM/VArdar is just plain stupid. People suffer from starvation there and the politicians there are so fanatic that they can't see it. That's the result of a miserable politic.

FYROM have no museum and nothing cultural and they are trying now to fabricate an artificial identity with statues and muppets. Poor region...

The worse and the ironic thing is that they don't understand this alexander statue is in fact a "disproportional" but good promotion for the greek culture. So that's 100% benefic for Greece, and on the contrary -100% for FYROMian people.

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Why do you say wasted Euro's on statues?

We will raise the statue of Philip II as well! We are prettyfying our country, thank you very much.
Perhaps the 1000W of Greece might ruin them after an explosion.

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Do not bother in engaging in arguments with the likes of Dimitar and the rest of those unfortunate souls..

We, the Greeks, have been trying for years to 'wake them up' from their X- Soviet mentality that they are dwelling in.
With no success..

See, when you grow up and they teach you at school that Macedonia was stolen from them from the Greeks, and that they will one day take it back...
The problem goes deep..

What is common in unfortunate people like dimitar:

1: Lack of historical knowledge.
2: Distorted views of historical events.
3: Complete lack of depth in knowledge of Classics, and ancient history.
4: Belief that the ancient Macedonian language was Slavic
5: Inherent hatred and 'closing of ears' in all proof that indicates the Hellenistic nature of the ancient Macedonians.
6: Blind belief in FYRoM's current totalitarian regime.
7: Lack of proper education.
8: Belief in the supremacy of the Macedonians over every other race,
(as seen on government sponsored National TV broadcasts.)
9: Unwillingness to look forward in the Europe of the future,
having learned from the mistakes of the past.
10: Stubborness.
11: Many more...

A few errors have crept into Dr Truth's memorable contributions.

Firstly, DNA wasn't even "invented" in the 1930s/40s in the time of Hitler.

Secondly, some of the information contained in DNA is already known in conventional "blood group" information, both at individual and at national level, as blood groups vary by nationality and ethnic origin. In Northern Europe all this information is in the public domain - is it so in Greece ? Somehow I think it might not be, but I would be happy to be proved wrong.

Thirdly, academicians are not politicians (or if they are, they tend to be very bad ones ! And vice-versa).

Fourthly, "peer group review" is confined to academia and is frequently an unconstructive process involving the settling of old scores. The commercial world sensibly ignores this and uses patents instead !

Authentication code: rzeczpospolita

300 of the worlds most famouse historians, from universities such as, Stanford, Oxford , Cambridge , Yale, Vassar, College de France and hundreds of others in the United States and Europe have all stated that the ancient macedons where Greeks.

They also appeal to Fyrom to stop with their political and historical propaganda.

Read their letter in

w w w macedonia-evidence . org

Dr cornelius.
To wrap things up i personally think that the years 1920-1936
were days of glamour in most of europe and nobody had the slightest claivoyance or will to
see what was happening since 1933
with Hitler and the other guy
Mussolini since 1928.
i don't want this to be repeated
with the Osmanis in Europe thwey have caused enough damages "avec leur rejettons".
Their first alphabet was copied with no alterations from the Arabs.
Their Blue Mosque is a copy of Aghia Sofia.
Of course there is a Clash of
Civilisations regarding the EU.

s Name a single

German-Polish issues ignited the Second World War, so - with respect - they are relevant. Also, they tend to revolve around individual names and towns, just like in the Balkans today.

It was the world-famed German novelist Gunter Grass who put it most pithily: "Whatever the rights and wrongs of the German/Polish argument - and I for one rather sympathise with the Poles - one cannot expect foreigners to sympathise with replacing a straightforward place-name like "Landsberg" with its Polish equivalent of "Wrzszeszcz" . "

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"Wise Guy" has a very good point with his Polish/German analogy, which I entirely endorse. The Poles also have a town called "Lwowek Slaski" in Silesia (meaning "little Lwow", and referring to the origin of many of the inhabitants in Lwow, Ukraine), but this is not taken as any threat to Ukrainian sovereignty.

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Don't know what's the problem. Look at the region called "Silesia" resp. "Schlesien" (in German) resp. "Slask" (in Polish), which was part of Germany between 1871 and 1945 and then most of it went to Poland. But from 1994 till 2008 there was a "Landkreis" (district) named "Niederschlesischer Oberlausitzkreis" existing in the German Land Saxonia and nowbody even wasted a thought on if this could cause new claims to get back the whole region from Poland. Through such a simple think like the German-Polish Border Treaty (1990) this item was clearified for ever.

So the enemy of your enemy is your friend? A kind of idiotic logic. Did you forget that the Ottomans occupied Vardarska too? Do you need someone elses help to take "Solun"? It's that sort of attitude why you get vetoed all the time.

Sorry the first part of previous
is addressed to Peter and not Dimitar.

Dimitar
Dream my friend, dream Turkey has its own problems Syria the Kurds and most of all has a pendding EU membership plus major internal political and economic problems
by the way ,little piece
of an abortion, how and if you can't take care of your own problem? if you feel strong enough,
without patronage, ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ,
Greeks said it to more a lot more powerfull opponents than you
and won. So calm down and don't
believe all you were served by your
commie ultra-nationalistic propaganda machine.
DR CORNELIUS.
one thing i don't tolerate is the blend of stupidity,ignorance,and
blocked though. it drives me up the wall.

Oh Peter - do buy an upgraded game from your local Internet supplier for nerds, and concentrate on that instead (I can recommend "Sim City" for those who want to Rule The World from their PC.)

In plain terms, Turkey isn't going to do anything to compromise (a) its EU aspirations, and (b) its current occupation of Northern Cyprus. So get real / realistic, as Aries says, and forget all this masturbatory dream. It won't happen.

hahaha do you mean you give greece 3 days? do not forget you greeks that Turkey is our ally and I would give you only a day. With their help, Solun will be ours in no time. Did you honestly think that our relationship with Turkey was strictly platonic??? We both have a common enemy and that is greece. The prefect alliance if you ask me. Say bye to Aegean Macedonia and Solun!

to Aries - Many thanks, and I entirely agree with what you say. This is not an Internet war game of Zoids against Klingons, but a real situation of difficult neighbours with some bitter memories on both sides. So a positive effort towards Peace and Reconciliation is required, within the spirit of the UN Treaty, and any on-line talk of re-opening a century-old Treaty (that of 1913) is both unhelpful and irresponsible (also impossible, but that is clearly a minor obstacle to some who are posting !)

Dimitar,and others
Grow up boys,there will be no 2013,Dr Cornelius is a polite person,and with diplomacy tries to
make you understand how international issues
about treatises,how they work
some of you react calmly,
others react like wakened zombies
and iternet game nerds.I am a lot less polite.
Dimitar.
When you decide to declare war on Greece let me know, i give you at most three days not more.
you will then understand some facts of life my boy.

You believe your own fantasy and then get upset when no one else plays along. Trouble is your fantasy is frivolous when it comes to facts and the government of Skopje rides on this fantasy because "identity" is what's stopping the country from falling apart - one third Albanian, Bulgarian based language, part of the former Yugoslavia, Slavic origins. Most people with a brain have already left FYROM for Sofia. Granted irredentist claims are a way out of some domestic problems as well as re-election by nationalism but when you try do that at Greece's expense you've been greeted with a response, and not recently but since the beginning of FYROM - 18 years ago. Greece objected to the name from the start and FYROM knew this. Since then nothing much has changed, same old propaganda. The only thing that has changed from the Greek side is a compromise on using "Macedonia", which is still unwarranted and Greece went from being nice to being less nice. Can anyone believe that Greece invests more money in this country than anyone else?

Oh Dimitar - do grow up ! France is not the successor state to Gaul (and even President Sarkozy would not claim that it was), and Italy is certainly not the successor state to Ancient Rome, not least because there were over 30 independent Italian states for many centuries before Garibaldi finally re-united them in 1870. I would suggest that you learned a bit more about European history before posting again.

Italy not rome, and France not Gaul. However we are called MACEDONIA so therefore we are the successor state of Macedon...why don't you read a book on proper Macedonian history. If you do not support us then don't call us Macedonia, I dont care, we don't need you. Get in your head that as long as we are Macedonia then we will strive for United Macedonia...your words do not change that

Dimitar - Sorry, but you are simply wrong under International Law. There is no "successor state" to ancient Macedon, any more than there is a "successor state" to Gaul, Ancient Rome, or the Holy Roman Empire. A "successor state" is precisely defined under UN rules - look at my previous posting about Lithuania for an exact example about how this works.
Basically, the "successor state" has the same boundaries as its predecessor, no more and no less, although it may have a different political regime in power.

Before posting again, please do some "homework" about the whole subject of "successor states". There is a lot available under Google if you know how to search.

Cornelius, do you understand now what Greece has to put up with? If only we had neighbours such as France, Germany, Scandinavia and etc then the balkans would be a happier place! Believe it or not but in 2009 and ex Yugoslav state has territorial claims the Province of Macedonia using it's claim of successor state of Macedon as an excuse.

Macedonia existed before Jugoslavia but greeces invaded Aegean Macedonia and now Macedonia is divided up waiting to be reunited. The fact remains that as long as we are Macedonia then we are the successor state of ancient Macedon and therefore Solun rightfully belongs to us. Why the hell do you think greece wants to change our name? b/c they dont want to share the macedonian identity? no rather it is b/c that as long as we are Macedonia there will always be threat of taking back what is rightfully ours

and you never know what will happen in 2013, the world might be a war leaving us every opportunity to attack greece with all the major powers too busy to care :)

to Ivan - don't be obtuse. Jugoslovenska Republika Makedonija was (perfectly legally) named as part of the previous Federativna Republika Jugoslavenska to denote a region previously part of Greater Serbia, and now autonomous within the Federation. Tito's government was understandably concerned to avoid border/boundary issues with neighbouring states (except for Trieste / Trst , which is another story), and certainly would not have contemplated invading Greek territory. Today's Republika Makedonija is the "successor state" to Tito's republic in international law, and that means respecting and retaining its boundaries with Albania, Greece, Bulgaria, and Serbia / Kosovo.

The previous state from which Republika Makedonija was formed (and was then the "successor state") was actually Greater Serbia, although the territory was disputed by Bulgaria (not by Greece). There was no mention of Classical / Ancient Macedonia at all in the 1913 Treaty negotiations - everyone was more concerned with removing Turkey from the Balkans. And no, there are no "secret protocols" authorising re-opening of the 1913 Treaty in 2013. (If there were any "secret protocols", the Hungarians would have discovered them in their search for anything with which to re-open the 1919 Treaty of Trianon. And the Hungarians are thorough.)

And what state is Jugoslav "Republika Makedonija" a successor of????? ancient Macedonia!!!!

If a state is not the successor state of ancient Macedonia then they should not be called Macedonia (ie greece). We are called Macedonia so therefore we are the inheritors of ancient Macedonia whether you like it or not. And as long as you keep on calling us Macedonia then we have every right to claim Aegean Macedonia as ours!

to Ethnic Macedonian : I refer to "Macedonia" as this is the correct name (in my view) for the successor state of the Jugoslav "Republika Makedonija", with its regional capital in Skopje, and with its boundaries EXACTLY THE SAME as in the days of Federativna Republika Jugoslavija. This would also be the view of the United Nations, NATO, and the European Union.

Any talk of Macedonia being the successor state of Ancient Macedon is irresponsible and against international law if border changes are suggested as a result.

To give a fairly accurate parallel example, the borders of the Republic of Lithuania are exactly the same at those of the Lithuanian SSR within the old USSR. They are NOT the same as the borders of the Grand Duchy of Lithuania from 1368 to 1525, which were much wider and included much of Belarus and a bit of Poland. Why ? Because of the UN rules on successor states that I quote earlier. And also for the practical reason that invading Belarus would have started a local war ! The analogy applies to Greece and Macedonia fairly closely.

(By the way, Macedon is just the old way of referring to Macedonia in English. There is no political significance)

Exactly, if our country is called Macedonia then we have every right to own the ancient Macedonian legacy and all parts of Macedonian that have been divided up by the western powers, therefore Aegean and Pirin Macedonia belongs to us. If we were not called Macedonia then we would have no claim over Solun and such. But most of the world recognises us as Macedonia so we must unite Macedonia!

cornelius why do you call us Macedonia if you do not believe we are the successor state of Macedon? Does not make sense does it? It's like saying England is not the successor state of Britannia.

Now that most of the world recognises us as the Republic of Macedonia, United Macedonia will be a reality soon enough whether you and the greeks like it or not. Did not Rome start off as a republic before it became an Imperial empire?

to Aries - thanks for resurrecting my dormant knowledge of Ancient Greek. Of course you are entirely right; I remember "erkomai" and "lambanein" all too well from school classes. The best example was an old church hymn with the title "Idou (h)o Numphios erketai" with the English version starting "Behold the Bridegroom cometh" (accurately enough). Rude versions were however composed for the second line.

I would entirely agree with you that a knowledge of Ancient Greek is sometimes an advantage in life - the problem is that one never knows when !

Dr Cornelius.
A bit of Ancient Greek Grammar
molon is the past particile of
of the verb erchomai "to come"
and "lave" is the imperative
of the verb "lambano"
textually it translates come and take it" the colloquial english transliteration would be 'if you
dare come and take it".

Aries - many thanks: now I see 'Molon Labe' in the original Greek alphabet of course I understand it: a 1st-person participle (aorist ?) followed by an imperative (2nd person singular, aorist again ?) Colloquial English meaning : "We're here, so come and get us ", i.e. suitably defiant and presumably used at Thermopylae.

Trouble is that it DOES need translation, otherwise it really does sound (quite wrongly) like an ad. for French dishwashers.

dr Cornelius
I personnally agree with you on all
items with exception the "Molon llave" rather with all respects
"quite irrespectfull intermingle
with French dish-washing paraphernalia" We are talking about
the battle of Thermopyles my friend
a symbol in The Pantheon of Greek
and world-wide history "ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ"
and "Η ΤΑΝ Η ΕΠΙ ΤΑΣ" Originate in aancient Sparta and not FRANCE, UK, URUSSIA, USA.
As for the Dimitar.
Martin Bernall did a wonderfull marketing campaign with Tabernacle editing company to sell his controversial theory of Black Athena, and Fyromian propaganda machine of course took advantage of it and patronized the whole project.

to Dimitar - do take an "ageing" pill to make yourself grow up. The UN and other international rules on "successor states" take no account at all about what was happening 2000+ years ago (otherwise Ancient Rome would have a come-back and tourists would be fleeced even more round the Coliseum than they are now. Come to think of it, the tourists might have a whole new "visitor to Rome" experience in the Arena against the gladiators and the lions !)

The UN rules on "successor state" base themselves more on what was the last known legal entity governing that state - in Slovenia's case the FR Jugoslavija, and rather more interestingly in Russia's case the USSR in "federal" mode, in this case the Russian Federal Soviet Republic (RSFSR) within the wider Sovietski Soyuz. Going back to former Jugoslavija, the last known legal entity would have been the Republika Jugoslovenska Makedonija, and not the Roman Empire, Alexandra the Great's Kingdom.or even the Ottoman Sanjuk of Novi Pazar. Sorry, but international law is a bit boring and very rarely dramatic. In short, the republic based on Skopje is the successor state to what was Jugoslavenska Makedonija, observing precsiely the same borders and boundaries, and that is not internationally negoatiable.

(I'm sure I have upset someone in stating all this - so let the replies come in ! (By the way, what is "Molon Lave". In French it would be a brand of dishwasher liquid (Molon Lave-Vaiselles vous nettoi mieux que les autres), but I don't think this is what is meant. Unless, of course, eveybody has French dishwashers.....

If the Republic of Macedonia is not the successor state of ancient Macedonia then why does most of the world recognise us as Macedonia? You would be right to say that greece is neither the successor state of ancient Macedonia nor of ancient greece since present day greeks originate from africa.

Dr Cornelius
You are beating a dead horse
In Peter's case either imputing him of "wet dreams" or not
To peter
Go on with your 2013 great expectations i can see there is no life in you without "wet dreams"
poor soul!!!!

Under current UN rules, neither Greece nor the Republic of Macedonia can be a "successor state" to the ancient kingdom of Macedonia, so "Peter" can dream on.

Similarly as regards 2013, there is no international procedure for reopening old treaties signed "in perpetuity", so dream on again, Peter. All I can wish to you is "wet dreams" / mokre soniyi" in my best Russian. (The English phrase "wet dreams" carries with it the implication of masturbation, which of course I would never impute to Peter.)

The Republic of Macedonia is the successor of ancient Macedonia, greece is not! Your name is not Macedonia and you don't call yourselves Macedonians but rather ellines so stop trying to steal our identity.

Like it or not 2013 is coming up...I hope you greeks in Aegean Macedonia will enjoy learning and speaking Macedonian instead of greek

Thanks for the history lesson. What you stated is a no brainer if you know Greek. Just like Nice in France is also city of Victory. What you stated is obvious. That is what the name means, but what you seem to dismiss is the fact that the city was not named for this only, it was founded by King Kassandros after Alexander the Great's half-sister.

World, hold on... this is the kind of spin they put. They hit a purely historical fact with some true definition, then spin the reasoning behind it. Ahh, just how soon will the cookie-cutter country be dissolved into Albania and Bulgaria.

to Peter the "Uneducated" - just one comment upon your learned catechism (good Greek word !): I always thought that Thessaloniki was (a) formed of the two Greek words "Thessalon(oi)" (meaning Thessalonians as per the Bible) and "nike" meaning 'victory' in old Greek, so the name commermorates a victory over the Thessalonians, thus producing "Thessaloniki" (hence the English and German 'Salonica/ka') derived from the local Northern Greek dialect for the same city name. Nobody in the West would recognise the name "Solun", anyway, but "Salonika",yes.

As for the statue of Alexander the Great in Salonika - splendid piece of sculpture, that - it could well be replicated elsewhere by buying up spare statues of Ataturk from Turkey and refurbishing the figure to look a bit more "classical". The pose of the prancing horse - the most difficult bit of the sculpture to sculpt - is precisely the same. (I have a feeling that Alexander and Ataturk, had they ever met, might have understood one another rather well ! Both superb generals (and horsemen), rescuing a disintergrating empire by charismatic leadership.)

I think I have probably upset both sides in this debate by now,but Dr Cornelius is always the impartial arbiter.

I will answer you only if you answer me. Deal?

Alexander did not conquer the Greeks. There was no "Greek" State in ancient times. There instead was a Hellenic World consisting of ancient Greek city-states. Macedonia was one of them. As was Sparta, Corinth, Athens, etc... Sparta wen to war with Athens many times. Was this civil war? No. It was war between city-states of the Hellenic world. This was the case with Macedonia, another city-state of the Hellenic world, hence Greek.

Now I ask you to answer these questions without propogandist spin...
What was the name of Alexander's half-sister in which King Kassandros founded a city after her? Answer is Thessaloniki, so why call it Solun?

Here's another one, and I will answer any of yours in return...
There never existed a country called "Macedonia" since the destruction of the ancient kingdom by the Romans in 168 B.C.E. Any reference to a division of "Macedonia" between Greece, Serbia, and Bulgaria is a false and ludicrous statement. The geographical area of Macedonia from the advent of the Slavs in the 6th century A.D. (C.E.) until the First Balkan War of 1912 -- a period of 1500 years -- was populated by Greeks, Serbs, Bulgarians, Albanians, Jews and gypsies and since the 14th century A.D. (C.E.) by Turks as well. No census of Roman, Byzantine or Ottoman Empires refers to any "Macedonians." Hence, what "Macedonia" was divided up?

How can Alexander be your hero if he conquered you? So are the Turks your heros too?

I dont know what you mean. Macedonians are already Greek. Thessaloniki is still the capital of Macedonia, as it was when Alexander was around. He is our hero and spread our culture. So I do not know what you mean here. If your referring to Pseudo-Macedonia or Faux-Macedonia, then wake up... and read a book (no propagandist books issued from your goverment; find one in any library and university across the world instead).

We call upon all ethnic Macedonians in the diaspora and in Aegean Macedonia to rise up against greece in the struggle for Solun which rightfully belongs to United Macedonia. We do not need to wait for 2013 for the treaty to expire to get back what is rightfully ours!

Glory to Alexander the Great, demi god who conquered the greeks!

Dr Cornelius (ski/opoulos)
You still have an illusion about those Fanatics and believe me they are destructive deeply complexed
people and respect nothing but a firm grip on their neck.
I still maintain my theory
avec ces malheureux "stop the irritations and the provocations then we will talk no before"
si jamais tu leur tends la main ils te prendrons le bras.
They visualize a kind of alliance with Turkey can you imagine.

Scared? LMAO.

Isnt ours? ROFLMAO

Are you serious? First off, even Alexander and every Macedonian of ancient called it Thessaloniki. It's even in the bible. Not to mention that the city was founded by King Kassandros of Macedon, a Greek King, which named it after Alexander the Great's half-sister. So if your truly Macedonian, call it by its real name. Solun means nothing except in your Pseudo fantasies. Secondly, guess what? Thessaloniki is ours! Reality check... THESSALONIKI IS OURS. In case you havnt heard it, THESSALONIKI IS OURS. Maybe it is you Pseudo-Macedonian, FYROMian theives that are scared tht your country is going to fall. Afterall, 2020 is getting quite close and it doesnt look like your Pseudo-Nation will survive.

You're just scarred to lose something that isn't yours.

Solun 2013

2013 is a fluke. Thessaloniki was never yours and never will be. No point in talking about htis any longer. Your dreams of 2013 can be said by a prior post... MOLON LAVE (Come and get it!).

If you're so concerned about treaties and agreements and such, why dont you live up to the most recent one and compromise. If you dont follow an agreement, Greeks shouldnt either. And besides, the western world is getting sick and tired of FYROM. It can be seen everywhere from academia to politics to different communities and neighborhoods. Greece brought you guys into the spotlight, and we will bring you back. Get it through your thick brainwashed skulls... YOU WILL NEVER BE EXCLUSIVELY CALLED MACEDONIA!

TELOS "."

You're a fool Cornelius if you dont think we will try. As it was mentioned before, it is imperative that the Republic of Macedonia get back to Solun in order for our Macedoniasm to be complete. Why do you think we demand the recognition of an ethnic Macedonian minority in Aegean Macedonia? It is so we can slowly grow in numbers and take back what is rightfully ours!

Oh Peter, do grow up and be realistic. There is no way that NATO or Uncle Sam would permit any change in the status quo of Salonika or its surrounding territory (whatever its original ethnicity) and in any case the rumours that the 1913 Treaty can be re-opened in 2013 are just pure wishful thinking unfounded in fact.

Any further thinking along these lines is best "pushed under Mummy's skirts" (now, where have I heard that expression before ?)

Iki pasymatimo (that's Lithuanian for "until we meet again". And Lithuanians are not Slavs either.)

But there cannot be a Macedonia without Solun. It is like saying America without Washington! The Republic of Macedonia implies Solun otherwise we may as well change our country's name. However, the greeks are scared of 2013 so all we have to do is keep stalling the 'negotiations'

Oh dear, I have to post twice in succession ! to "Ethnic Macedonia", no, I do NOT support a larger "United Macedonia" that goes any further than the current borders of Republika Makedonija, and any talk of re-opening the 1913 Treaty in 2013 is plain stupid and internationally unrealistic, as is any talk of re-taking "Solun". "Solun" is now physically part of Greek sovereign territory and is now called Thessaloniki in Greek or Salonika in English or German, so that is a fact of life and you had better accept it as such.

With respect to Aries, the formula "stop the irritation and then let's talk" has never worked in international relations for the past thousand years. Instead: "Maintain the irritation until you get a real concession" is a formula more likely to succeed.

Sorry, but that's a fact of life (or 'realpolitik', as the Germans say.)

Exactly, as Cornelius, now that the Republic of Macedonia is here to stay then you greeks will have to give up Aegean Macedonia as the treaty expires in 2013. Only a country called the Macedonia has any right to Aegean Macedonia and Solun. Greece does not have the name Macedonia and therefore Solun does not belong to the greeks. Thank-you Cornelius for supporting United Macedonia as this is our common goal.

This discussion is getting a bit hysterical (to use a word of good Greek origin). Let us look at the facts:
(a) there is no such thing as a NATO "veto" (NATO proceeds by consensus, which means that one member-nation objecting can temporarily obstruct a decision, as has happened with Greece and Macedonia). There IS a veto within EU procedures, if voting by unanimity is required rather than "qualified majority" voting, but this has not yet been invoked.

(b) Like it or not, Macedonia is now a sovereign state and has a right to its own national identity as per the UN Charter. I agree that it shouldn't play silly buggers with statues or airport names, and the question of the Flag will yet cause further debate, but we are where we are, and (as Karamanlis said, though maybe not in this precise context) we can't rewrite history. The Republic of Macedonia is, and is where it is. Koniec (this - to TrueMacedonia- is the Polish/Czech word for "The End" which is now widely used in the EU Commission in Brussels. Sorry if its a Slavic word, but there are more Slavs than live in Macedonia, and many of them (in Northern Europe) are rather highly respected,)

WHY Athens finds Skopje’s use of the name Macedonia unacceptable on historical grounds and says that calling the former Yugoslav republic "Macedonia" could be exploited to REINFORCE Skopje’s territorial claims in Greece, which has a province named Macedonia???
OBVIOUSLY ATHENS IS AFRAID TO LOSE SOMETHING THAT DOESNT BELONG TO THEM!

The new world order, has arrived.
How is it right for 1 million Christian Turks, who still Squat over holes, and settled on Macedonian land 80 years ago, become Macedonian.
This SCUM degrades, and DECAYS the living memory of Alexander the Great, and most proper GREEKS.
Macedonian for the Macedonians, and not anyone else, Slavs and Greeks stay away.

So far we know what fyrom "doesn't accept" as a name. What is the name that they suggest really?
Macedonia??? Because if they think that this is their alternative they are commiting a very big mistake. Nobody in Greece, even the soft and modest greek government will not and should not accept any solution with "macedonia" or any produce.This is a demand from all Makedones who live and feel greeker than the governmental puppets...

To Mr. Ovski,

2.5+ million (Greek & True Macedonians) VS -2 million (Pseudo-Macedonian/Paionians).

The number of Greeks known as Macedonians by far exceed FYROMians calling themselves Macedonian.

World history is for all people. Propoganda by your Pseudo nation and Pseudo-Macedonian people is being realized daily by the world over. A deal can only keep your country alive, otherwise it will get eaten up from within. Greater Albania is closer than you think without International Support. Greece is a member and votes no, NATO issued the veto. Get the drift here? Nothing can be done. Greeks compromised, now its your turn. If you want a promising future that is.

ALEXANDRE
MI TO CHONDRENIS TO PECHNIDI

Dr Cornelius van Helsingovski
Did this Hegemon of Moldava like
picture while looking at himself in a Mirror.
I think the Greek lobby is quite
expansive in relations. Certainly more constructive and appreciated
in the US than than the Fyromian
.

Cornelius has gone mad... TM was right... FYROMians have nothing to do with Macedonia. Macedonians are Greek. Simple as that. What's this about Uncle Sam? You're bringin other things into a simple issue. Change your name, otherwise dream on about joining the rest of the world organizations. Simple as that Cornelius. The ovski, evski and donski statement is true. World history cannot be changed by anyone, no matter how many people of them exist. Know one thing though... Greeks in Greece may number only 11 million, but worldwide, they number over 120 million... from local to regional to national, political lobbies understand this. Also, lobbying is not so much today as it was 50 years ago. Now it is money thrown down the drain. Do you think Pseudo-Macedonia/FYROM came about from lobbying? It is whoever sells themselves out first. Good job FYROM, you have sold yourselves out. You first rid your Slavic heritage and take on a Greek one, and then you send your kids to die in a wars that do not concern you, as butt buddies if you must, and now you offer "bids" to western nations for state run companies within your borders. Hysterical. I give it till about 2020 for FYROM to plunder.

Aries - two things about the Americans:
(1) they tend to react to an international situation Too Late and Too Much. Or Else Not At All (especially in a US election year)
(2) beware the power of the ethnic lobbies (what the Poles always called the 'emigratsia') in the Chicago and East Coast industrial belt. This includes both Greeks and Macedonians, but I am not sure which outnumbers the other. Depending upon which Congressman controls which ethnic minority, sudden changes in US policy can often take place (that is what I meant by "Uncle Sam pulling the plug". It has happened with Italy quite a lot, but the best examples are probably Israel and Syria. )

Of course in the European Union such crude and sudden national re-alignments can never happen.....

Yours under the statue of Stefan Cel Mare Si Sfint (King Stefan the Great and the Holy, who disliked Turks. Actually, he disliked everybody else too : Romanians, Vlachs, Turks, Greeks, and Albanians. Well, at least one knew where one stood ......)

my previous post is addressed
to Cornelius van Helsingovski

Dr Cornelius
Greece has now adopted i think the
opposite quotation "stop the iritation first then lets talk
about Nato and EU"
with all the respect
I dod not quite get the statement
" uncle Sam will pull the plug
as uncle Sam knows" rather dubious quotation.

to TrueMakedonija - hey, you cannot be serious , Man. The number of -ovski, -evski, and -donski inhabitants of the good ole USA vastly exceeds the populations of either Makedonija or Hellas. Careful, old son, or Uncle Sam will pull the plug and generally be nasty, as only Uncle Sam knows how. (Just ask the Iraquis !)

FYROMians' only link to the ancient can be Paionia, not Macedonia which is Greek. As my previous statement:

"The region of ancient Paionia was a part of the Macedonian empire. So were Ephesos and Tyre and Palestine and Memphis and Babylon and Taxila and dozens more. They may thus have become “Macedonian” temporarily, but none was ever “Macedonia”."

FYROM and FYROMians can call themselves Paionians. Macedonians and Macedonia have been reserved for Greeks and Hellenism for thousandsof years. No "oski", "evski", or "donski" will change the worlds history. The end.

Aries - yes, I agree, the Macedonian government is behaving irresponsibly. But one way of influencing them is to put them inside a wider international body, who can bring extreme pressure to bear if they misbehave. (This happened a bit when Greece joined the EU in 1983 - various Hellenic practices were rather abruptly terminated, notably in the Customs/Telonios area. )

Hence once again I fear that excluding Macedonia from NATO was an "own goal" by Greece - if Macedonia had been a NATO member-nation by now, all this irritation to Greece would have been terminated (whether Macedonia liked it or not.)

to TrueMacedonia - you can't mean Babylon, man. Babylon is where the Rastas come from, and man, they're real mean. Don't get on a Harlem shuttle when the Rastas are working the train, or you'll end up on the tracks somewhere on the East Side. Man, they're really cool dudes, those Babylon brothers.

TO THOSE INTERESTED, LOOK UP PAIONIA.

The region of ancient Paionia was a part of the Macedonian empire. So were Ephesos and Tyre and Palestine and Memphis and Babylon and Taxila and dozens more. They may thus have become “Macedonian” temporarily, but none was ever “Macedonia”.

MOLON LAVE SLAVOSKOPJANS!!!

COME AND GET IT PSEUDO-MACEDONIANS!!!

You want "Thessaloniki", try to get it.

Thousands of years Greek's have been oppressed and we always come back stronger. Greece and Greeks will always survive. But this, it just wont happen. MOLON LAVE!!!

REPLY TO "SV"

First off, Being Macedonian is being Greek. Simple as that. You want to be called Macedonian, then you are new Macedonians. I can live with that. But exclusively claiming Greek history and identity as your own is unnacceptable.

Secondly, its 14 years since the 1995 interim accord, not since FYROMians stole Greek identity, language and history.

Lastly, dont kid yourself. Grecee has compromised. We let you in to the UN and other world organizations via the interim accord. You then violated even further. Dont you get it, you CANNOT join a member organization unless ALL members want you in. As simple as that. When Greece compromises, you must too. Since you dont, we dont have to let you in. Simple as that my Pseudo-Macedonian freind.

DR Cornelius
Je ne crois pas que cet avortement
d'etat aurait le culot de declarer
unilaterement la guerre a la Grece
It didn'nt keep any of interrim
agreement points now it comes up
with "i will recognnize no suffixing or prefixing of the word macedonia" . These tactics are not
acceptable and are ureliable REGARDING A GOOD NEIGHBORHOOD STATUS.

Aries - thanks; I entirely agree. This whole business about 2013 is plain silly: all Treaties are normally made "in perpetuity", as the Hungarians ruefully acknowledge about the 1919 Treaty of Trianon, and this business about "secret protocols" is just wishful thinking.

Besides, even if there were such protocols, who would enforce them ? Not the UN, not NATO, not the EU, and not even the Russians after their Georgian fiasco. Turkey is unlikely to be a candidate, given that it was the defeated party in the 1913 Treaty.

Instead, in the event of any serious Balkan trouble in 2013, we would see NATO, EU and other global powers firmly squashing it. (Mind you, it would have been helpful under these theoretical circumstances if acedonia had been allowed to join NATO, as it would have then been very firmly constrained against any unilateral action. It was a bit of an "own goal" by Greece to block this.)

Dr Cornelius
Sorry but since I see nothing
but 2013 crap and delusional
argument prevailing
I see your humouristic point
I have no further comment

Some second-hand statues of Ataturk have come onto the European scrap metal market, and can easily be converted to Alexander the Great with a welding torch and a bit of scrap brass. Any takers ? (A once-in-a-lifetime offer !)

You all will beg for mercy in 2013 when United Macedonia takes over Solun. If you haven't figured it out yet, that is why the Republic of Macedonia is "stalling" the "negotiations" because we wont need to negotiate anything with Solun in our hands.

Bye-bye stupid greeks

"firstly you are greek not Macedonian, the onloy way you can be a Macedonian and a greek is if you are a dual citizen."

A Macedonian is any one from the Province of Macedonia, get over the fact that you do not need to be from Skopje to be Macedonian. Is it not ironic that the very world "Macedonian" is a Greek word and has no Slavic meaning? Your country has very little of ancient Macedonia, you dont even have the old capital Pella in your borders and you have no justification to monopolise the Macedonian identity which explains why you think the Treaty of Bucharest will expire in 2013

With Thessaloniki, Pella, Florina, and the rest of the Province of Macedonia...you're just a Skopjan. So just keep on publishing text books with the Province of Macedonia included in your territory, whatever makes you feel better but the first step is admitting that you have an identity crisis.

YOu dreamed in WWII that Nazis will give you Macedonia and now you fantasize that Turkey will give it to you. Who's next...China?

Sorry, but the inhabitants of the Province of Macedonia are Greek Macedonians and identify themselves as such. Macedonia is a EU prefecture with Thessaloniki as the capital. Unless Skopje recognises Greek Macedonians (with no connection to Skopje) then Skopje should not be allowed. You do not need to be a citizen of Skopje to be a Macedonia so stop this monopoly of identity. Also, unless Skopje manages to capture Thessaloniki and Greek Macedonia then deep down you're nothing but a Slav with a whole bunch of Albanians around you. To truly be Macedonia you need the majority of Macedonia including Thessaloniki. good luck with that.

PS - apparently Greek Macedonian is too complex for you to understand but why don't you try French Canadian...the world is not black and white

This comment has been removed by the moderator because it contained .

TrueMacedonia, firstly you are greek not Macedonian, the onloy way you can be a Macedonian and a greek is if you are a dual citizen. Secondly, The Republic Of Macedonia has more than comprimised so far. The previous leaders without referendum agreed to the insulting term FYROM and also without referendum, changed the Macedonian Flag. I think this is pretty big step on behalf of the previous administration. Now that we, the Macedonians have are now FYROM and have changed our flag, what can the Greeks (of the same huge significance) put on the table for the Macedonians? Let me guess, nothing.And by the way its 18 years since greece has an issue with anything Macedonia does, not 14.

Well for starters Greece does not lay territorial claims on a country with a similar name. Greece does not produce text books claiming that Skopje belongs to Greece or that in 2013 "United Greece" will take back Skopje.

If you want to join EU or NATO Skopje needs to change its textbooks and publicly denounce any claims made on the Province of Macedonia and recognise the existence of Greek Macedonians who outnumber the Skopjans by far. Or you can keep stalling on the negotiations and build a statue of Alexander that will put your people even more into debt

Why does Macedonia need to compromise at all, Macedonia is Macedonia and that's all it will ever be, I'm very sure if another country asked Greece to change their name they would not compromise.

Sorry - I clicked "send" prematurely. There's actually quite a market in re-cycled statues throughout Europe, and the re-naming is often quite easy: Marx looks quite like Plato if you give him a haircut with a chisel, and Trotsky can easily be made into a minor nineteenth-century patriot. Moldova fills up whole parks with these, and even Slovenia has some spare statues of national poet France (pronounced 'Franz') Preseren. He fits the bill for any nineteenth-century intellectual national figure.

The more difficult one is Ataturk, who is always in army uniform on a prancing horse looking out to sea (presumably afraid of the Greeks), but some good (if large) Ataturk statues have recently come on the market from Marmaris. They look very like Alexander the Great in modern army uniform (now there's a thought..)

The one statue you really want is Stefan Cel Mare si Sfint (Stefan the Great and the Holy), whose statue always depicts an upheld Cross in his left hand and a sword in the other (he defeated the Turks rather often). His best statue is in Chisinau, Moldova, where it is a national monument (not for sale !) but there are many others around eastern Romania which I am sure could be put on the back of a truck for a certain sum in euros (don't try local currency !)

I'm still sitting on about 1000 Modlovan lei (=40 euros approx. Any takers ?)

I have my own views (and a proposed complete re-vamped design) on the Macedonian flag, but what are they doing erecting statues all over the place ? There is already a 'pool' of statues in Vilnius, Lithuania, where they can get them for free (plus transport costs) - heroic poses, imperial crowns, the lot.

Mind you, it helps if you don't mind a slightly restricted choice of subject - most are of Marx, Lenin, Stalin etc (but it is easy to rename them after a local poet or national hero).

Completely agree with A.HAMILTON
I personally think that Fyrom is trying to "forcer la main" with
possible distabilization issues
in the area.

I agree with the previous posts: the compromise on Greece's side has already been made, i.e. allowing the use of the word Macedonia in some form. This was not even an option to be considered by Greece back in the mid 90s. So where has FYROM compromised after all these years? All I have seen from FYROM are continuous violations of the Interim Accord of 1995. Before the Gruevskiites start up, yes Greece, did not let FYROM join NATO last year but FYROM has been violating the Interim Accord non-stop since before the ink was dry on the document. Examples: the use of the constitutional name in international fora, the stoking of nationalist flames against Greece, the use of symbols and historical figures belonging to Greece, claims on Greek territory, etc. I think Greece could have taken FYROM to the ICJ over these violations a thousand times over (one for each Alexander statue erected in the past few years in Skopje) but Greece did not. Perhaps Greece seeks a solution. FYROM only seeks obstructionism, revisionism, and nationalism.

A Compromise means just that FYROM, it means both parties have to give something up. Greece at first, did not agree to any use of the name Macedonia. They have since changed to including a geographic qualifier. Talks continued. Now, 14 years since the agreement, you decide that the geographic qualifier is not good enough? Nice nogotiations FYROM. Nice compromise FYROM. Are you serious? Do you think the world is as foolish as your brainwashed people and politicians?

Just admit, you don't want a solution, stalling time is the old trick in the book. I guess Skopje needs to legitimize the millions of euros they're wasting on pathetic statues.