to Peggy - well, as the Russians say: "Da svidanye" (Until we encounter another again), and as the Lithuanians say to everyone's confusion; "Iki pasymatimo" (the great point about Lithuanian is that it is pronounced exactly as it is spelled, with no 'traps' for the foreigner. Even a basic knowledge of Lithuanian can be a great help in a business or government meeting.)

Dr. Cornelius, it's been a pleasure discussing this topic with you as you have stayed away from personal attacks and vulgarity which many people use to fend off someone who they don't agree with, try to intimidate or simply make look like a fool.

We have managed to find some points which we do agree on anyway and if both of us made someone out there think more about alternative sources of information, then it's been worth while.

Aries, thank you for expressing your appreciation.

Aries - thanks; hopefully they are better than the interminable contributions from Peter the Dreadful / Piotr Straszny (here the Russian and Polish translations are identical !)

The postings Peggy put up really are worth a serious look. Noam Chomsky (as always) gives a brilliant interview, and John Pilger is as acerbically abrasive as always. I was a little less impressed with the Japan Times - as I have indicated to Peggy - as the journalist fell into a basic logical trap. If he had said that Serbia was the only country in YUGOSLAVIA not to surrender to or collaborate with the Nazis, then he would have been correct (there is an interesting sub-point about Slovenia, but I'll let that pass.) However, in claiming that Serbia was the only country in EUROPE not to do so, he was both factually and logically wrong. Poland is the clear and obvious exception, but a case could be argued for Czechoslovakia and Lithuania too.

In the Czech case, the Sudeten Germans assumed government, while in Slovakia the Hungarians (whose Arrow Cross movement was neo-Fascist and Nazi-supporting) took over. In Lithuania the Nazis and then the Russians assumed direct rule (rather unfortunately, the previous occupying power had been the Poles !), and the Lithuanians only got to govern their own country in 1991. Latvia is not the same, as there was some German collaboration.

I could go on, but I won't, otherwise I shall sound like Piotr Straszny ! I shall end by observing that Aristotle, father of classical logic, was of course a Greek !

To Peggy and Dr Cornelius
Certainly a great pleasure for me to read your posts.

Peggy - Many thanks. I cannot excuse portrayal of a Serbian funeral as "Moslem", which is a dreadful journalistic error.(Not entirely sure that it can be attributed to the BBC, though - the BBC is usually very careful about such things because of the UK's own Moslem audience).

As for Gregory Clark (Japan Times),I am sorry but he DID state something untrue. He said that "Serbia was the one European nation to resist Nazi German domination (the others either surrendered or collaborated)." Now, Poland is also a European nation. And Poland never surrendered or collaborated. Therefore his statement is untrue.

This is simple classical logic, known as a "syllogism", and it inexorably follows that Gregory Clark made an untrue statement. Don't blame me, blame Aristotle, who invented syllogistic logic which then went on to be taught in the mediaeval Christian church.
(There's a good book by the logician Eric Thouless about the use and misuse of logic in politics, called "Straight and Crooked Thinking" which is worth reading.

How do I know the Cyrillic alphabet ? The flip answer is "Doesn't everybody ?" The actual
answer is that I did Greek at school, and learning the Russian Cyrillic alphabet while a student in Krakow was fairly easy. (Polish of course uses the Latin alphabet, but Russian classes were compulsory at the university for everybody, even though deeply unpopular. Over-proficiency in Russian was locally regarded as a sure sign that the speaker worked for the secret police, and was NOT a way to "gain friends and influence people". These days, of course, it's quite a marketable asset. Times change.....

What part of Australia are you in ?
I used to have a friend who worked for the Queensland representative office in London, and in the Ministry of Agriculture wine department we all used to patronise the excellent Australian wine shop near Charing Cross station. We even bought some Aussie wine to serve to the Cyprus High Commission to show how hot-climate wines SHOULD be made. The Cypriots were not amused, though I still have some of the Penfolds bottles concerned; Penfolds Grange is probably one of the best wines in the world.

I digress; sorry

G'day

Regardless of the fact that Gregory Clark (Japan times) is short on facts in your opinion, he does not state anything untrue. He did not mention Poland because the article was not meant to give a WW2 lesson but to show how Serbs participated in that war and what happened to them.
So am I to conclude that you simply cannot argue with what is stated (albeit incomplete as far as you are concerned) and that Serbs were not the monsters the world has tried to portray but actually the victims of Clinton's politics and what continued after?

As you and whoever reads these posts can see that anyone can be demonized in order to justify military intervention against them. This is all about politics and control of the region and nothing about justice.
Civil wars are brutal, but especially when America enters that war. They will win that propaganda war in western countries and they will justify why they are going in there killing the other side.

Take Iraq for an example. I was always against that invasion because I simply do not believe what is in the media when it comes to foreign policy.
Nobody is saying that Hussein was a saint but then he certainly was not the monster he was portrayed to be. America needed to justify their invasion of Iraq and therefore needed the blessing of their citizens and allies. So the massive propaganda war began. First demonize the side you wish to eliminate and then go in with all the blessing you want. Most people will buy it but some of us look for answers in other places too.

I am curious. How do you know Cyrillic and the language. Have you lived there? Just crossing the country by bike is not enough to know Cyrillic especially.

Even if we don't agree and perhaps never will, I do appreciate you taking time to read some material I provided.
There is a lot more out there but there is no point. If the links I provided are not enough to make someone thirsty enough for more knowledge then there is no use going on more about it.

John Pilger has a documentary called "The War on Democracy" which shows exactly how American propaganda machine works. He discussed South America in this documentary.
He has also written a book called "New Rulers of the World" in which he devoted a few pages to what was happening in former Yugoslavia but the book is mostly about exploitation of weaker countries.

Like I said, there is a wealth of material out there. The usual six o'clock news doesn't cut it at all.

I have watched the news here in Australia when the war first broke out and saw a Serbian funeral (crosses with Cyrillic writing on them) which the reporter described as a Muslim funeral and how sad it was that those mothers were devastated. If they couldn't get that right what do we actually see on our screens? This is the truth and I did ring the station to tell them whose funeral they were showing. They said the news came from BBC. Go figure.

Peggy - I have now been able to read all the items you kindly posted (and posting anything on this site is something of a pain, so thanks again.) My comments (in brief) are:

Noam Chomsky has been a world-renowned acadamic for decades - he was even known in Krakow university in the 1960s. What he says is primarily a critique of the Clinton administration, in answer to those who claim that under Clinton US policy was purer than the driven snow, as opposed to being blacker than the deepest s*** under George W Bush, and Chomsky chooses Serbia/Kosovo as his example. He makes - as always - several good and cogent points. They are not the whole story, and he wouldn't expect them to be, but they certainly rightly argue that Clinton is no saint.

Turning to John Pilger, John is a highly respected investigative journalist here in the UK (I know he has Aussie roots), and prefers to argue his case from a distinctively partisan viewpoint (often in The Guardian, the UK left-wing intellectual paper that I buy myself.) In this case he does so effectively (as always), but he would be the first to admit that there might be another side to the story.

Finally, there is the Japan Times. A good and clear article, but a bit short on facts. (For example, to claim that: "Serbia was the one European nation to resist Nazi German domination (the others either surrendered or collaborated). Its capital, Belgrade, was viciously bombed as a result" (direct quote) rather ignores what happened to Poland and its capital Warsaw during the same period, with rather more loss of life. Poland never surrendered to the Nazis either, and (with respect) the article's author should have known this, as it is hardly a secret - the Polish squadrons in the British RAF killed more Germans per aircraft than the British did, and we didn't do badly ! And the Polish government - nationalist in exile in London, and Communist in exile in Lublin - never surrended.)

So, in short, I fully agree there has been unbalanced reporting in the world's press on the Kosovo issue, and that on this occasion Serbia is "more sinned against than sinning". But blatant inaccuracies such as the one I quote from the Japan Times do not help Serbia's case, unfortunately.

By the way - on a trivial note - the Cyrillic subtitles of the Chomsky interview were unusually easy to read. Or maybe it's just that my knowledge of Serbo-Croat is coming back to me...

Thanks once again for doing all the hard work of posting the various extracts.

Dr. Cornelius, I don't expect any thanks for posting links. There are many others but this will do.
I hold these people in high regard as they have a good reputation around the world.
I don't see any reason for them to write rubbish only to be discredited, unlike "official UN reports" etc which are very politically motivated.

Noam Chomsky work is used in our university here in Australia for students majoring in international relations. I seriously doubt that any example of his work would be used in our unis here if he was not a credible source.
He has a lot to say about what happened in the former Yugoslavia and it is a real eye opener.

General MacKenzie was there in charge of the UN. If he doesn't know what he is talking about then no journalist who is going to get many articles from the great warehouses of CNN and BBC can know better.

You see I think it would be very hard to discredit these people but I'm sure that people who already minds and hearts made up will try to find a way. I have come across these people often. The fact that they are always of Croatian, Bosnian Muslim or Albanian blood might have something to do with what they choose to believe.
Seriously, I don't expect you to have a change of mind in any way.

My links may serve a different purpose. They just might inspire others to read those articles and have a think about it.

At least you are prepared to read them and to see the interview. That's more than others were prepared to do but still condemned the authors.

Peggy - many (and genuinely sincere) thanks for taking the trouble to post those three items; I think (from my own rueful experience !) that this site only accepts one hyperlink/URL at any one time, but it does not make this clear.

I've now read all three sites that you posted, and I'll send you my response very shortly.

In the meantime, sincere thanks once again.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EEhgwdJldeU

Noam Chomsky interview

It seems to only take one link at a time.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1112681/posts

This comment has been removed by the moderator because it contained

This comment has been removed by the moderator because it contained

Peggy - Curiously, I agree with you about "organ harvesting". This seems to have been going on in Northern Albania (Burrell) and Serbs seem to be the victims. It is a disgraceful war crime, and the Albanians are clearly the perpetrators, not the Croats or the Slovenes.

Albania is of course home to the Kanun of Lek, or Blood-Feud Law, abolished by the Communists but immediately reinstated by the new "democratic" government in 1990.

It was very short-sighted of Greece not to veto Albania's entry into NATO. Instead, Greece chose to veto Macedonia instead, despite the fact that Macedonia is the only former Yugoslav republic to have left the federation without any bloodshed (even Slovenia had a few), and has not undertaken any military activity against any of its neighbours since. Sometimes I reflect that modern-day Greece has lost the wisdom (sophia) of Ancient Greece, but then it is allied to Serbia, so that explains it !

Thank you Radovan. It would be a pleasure to visit Republika Srpska and Serbia.
I hear that it's all coming along linecely there.
It won't be long now when the rest of the truth comes out and we see just what horrors Serbs had to endure.
Organ harvesting case is becoming a liability for Pristina institutions. Anyone who can do such a ghoulish act as this is not fit to live in our society.
Obviously Dr. Cornelius doesn't see this as a crime to top all crimes in the former Yugoslavia. As far as he is concerned Serbs top this ghoulish act.

I happen to differ and I'm sure many compassionate people would see organ harvesting as an act of pure evil. Some will brush it aside and pretend it never happened.

Peggy -

Well said, my daughter. A warm welcome in Pale awaits you any time. Ako putujete prema istoku stizete do Srbije !

Tvoj Radovan

Dr. Cornelius, again you don't answer. I asked you if you have read articles written by the people I mentioned NOT if you have read all the official reports, which nobody would've.

Have you actually heard the Canadian soldiers speak? That was another question. I know you think that soldiers are naturally horrified if they are not skilled but since the Canadians were skilled imagine the horror which awaited them.

Don't worry about replying as I really don't care to talk to you about this any longer. We are only going in circles.
I know all about how much propaganda was sent out into the world against the Serbs, so I am not naive like you to think that all I was reading was the truth.
Maybe you should take all your "facts" to ICJ now and see if you can help demonize the Serbs a little more. It seems to be what you like to do best.
Nobody said that Serbs did not commit any crimes. I do acknowledge that, but you see where we differ is who ended up being the real victim in this. Forget your western propaganda if your bias will allow it and actually READ articles from people I mentioned. You obviously have not done that. The people I mentioned and more FIERCLY disagree with your official reports. I wonder why.

Peggy - yes, I HAVE read all the postings I could find about the Canadian soldiers' reaction: in summary they were battle-hardened veterans with decent armament, so they won the engagement with the Croats. But (this is what the sources say, not me) they were unused to the Balkan war tradition of laying waste the enemy's territory - and slaughtering all the civilans - before retreating to their own territory (a tradition probably going back to Tito's partisans). Conventional armed warfare does not do this; even the Russians did not do it in Georgia rather more recently. British and Russian military staff both observed this at the end of the Kosovo campaign, when they had had numerous armed stand-offs against each other, but neither side had observed 'Balkan' rules, and so very few civilians got killed/injured. Nor soldiers, either; each side recalled the NATO/Warsaw Pact rules all too well.

Soldiers from the New World often find the Balkan rules rather hard to understand, which is why the Canadian soldiers were upset. (At least, unlike the Yanks, they knew how to fight, though !)

The Dutch UN soldiers at Srebrenice expressed much the same horror about the Serbs and ethnic cleansing when they got back safely to the Netherlands. The difference was, that the Dutch were not skilled soldiers and were not heavily armed like the Canadians. But their reactions were much the same.

I hope this answers your question - I have indeed been round nearly all the primary sources, except the one that claims Karadzic is really a Very Holy Man and Has Been Deeply Misunderstood, which is why he is now dressed as an Orthodox monk and wandering around Pale with his goons dressed as priests. No NATO troops will ever
interfere with a religious Order...(look at what happened in Cyprus in the 1950s/60s/70s !)

Dr. Cornelius, you didn't address anything I wrote in my last post.
You went onto something I wasn't even talking about.
Do you see the men I mentioned as credible or not? Do you believe what the soldiers said themselves openly or some official report?
You have completely stayed away from the enteire post except to say
Pilger- yes and Chomsky too.
Do you disagree with their version of what happened or do you agree? You don't sy very much at all.

Pilger -yes, and Chomsky too (though he seemed preoccupied with linguistic issues). My own first experience of modern Croatia was the train from peaceful Ljubljana in 1999 to Zagreb Glavni Kolodvor, which appeared to be in the middle of a war zone where white-painted UN vehicles wouldn't stop at pedestrian crossings for fear of being fired on. A far cry from Ljubljana, where stopping at these crossings is universally observed (failure to do so is an offence). Cut to Beograd two years later, and precisely the same thing happened (except that the pedestrian assassins were the MUP secret police.) More seriously, I had to intervene in my hotel (the Metropol) to prevent a Bosnian woman diplomat from being arrested (or worse) by the MUP for wearing a headscarf. (There are times when having a diplomatic passport helps !) The next night the MUP broke up a peaceful demonstration on Bulevar Kralija Alexandra by the hotel with extraordinary violence - I know London has had its bad moments recently, but this was far worse. I am sure the Croatian MUP can be pretty bad too, but I can only report (and be influenced by) what I have personally seen.

In contrast, staying quite a long time in Central Ljubljana, I think I once saw a policeman shout at a driver (with Bosnian plates) who ran a red light.....a thing that law-abiding Slovenes never do. It was also possible to wander back through central Ljubljana at dead of night with one's female companion without ever an incident occurring (sensible Slovene that she was, she refused to cross the Croatian border !)

Dr. Cornelius, I have looked at the link. The fact is that many reports from the field were censored very heavily before being submitted so "official UN reports" don't necessarily portray the whole truth.

I have listened to Canadian peacekeepers who were there telling is straight which is much better than reading any official report. They have nothing but contempt for the Croats and were horrified at what they are capable of. This you will not find in an official report because it is not something the UN wanted to be known.
When those Canadians got back home they were immediately split up and told not to talk about it. They did not want their version but some doctored version palatable to suit the west. Did you know that? I bet you didn't and you don't want to know it.

You just said that the UN thinks that Serbs and Croats are about even in evil but you still maintain that Serbs are just that little more evil because of your experience with Karadzic.
I bet if you happened to come across some Croats with their own goons you would not be critical as much.
I understand that you are biased and again you will not accept what I am saying, but it's the truth. I have listened to what those Canadian soldiers have to say years after the war. They are talking now and it is not the official version.

Let's just agree to disagree, but before I go I would like to ask you if you have ever heard MacKenzie speak on this or read John Pilger's articles, or Gregory Clark's articles, or head Noam Chomsky's thoughts on what happened and who was what or Scott Taylor or even James Bissett.
I bet you anything you have not wanted to know what these people think and who they blame. A lot of propaganda was used to blacken the Serbs and many things were staged which is all coming out now but people like you are going to hold onto your beliefs because you want to.
Good luck with all that. If you think that reading mainstream papers and listening to CNN and BBC has opened your eyes you are dead wrong.
In the end we choose to believe what is most comfortable for us and what suits our own prejudices.

Sorry to come in twice, but I thought I should explain what happened in Warsaw. The Polish police are quite used to normal bodyguards and 'minders' - many of the "byisnyesmeni" of the former USSR all have them. But what Karadzic had was a quantum leap apart - it was verging on a small army of very well-armed obvious paramilitaries in plain clothes (except they all dressed the same and wore their weapons in the same way.)

The Polish policemen, many of them veterans of the civil conflict years of the 1980s, were still taken aback. Their HQ told them not to "challenge" the Serb goons, so they contented themselves with having a beer after the Serbs had left, and inviting me (as a Polish-speaking foreigner) to join them for a 'piwo' in the Europejski bar. Since the Serbs had earlier thre atened to shoot the entire bar up with their Kalashnikovs unless they all got free drinks, only prevented by one courageous policeman at the time, we were happily given free beers by the grateful bar manager. Civilised people, those Serbs....

Peggy - you haven't looked at that excellent Canadian URL about Medak that you yourself raised in discussion. The Canadians basically say that the Serbs and Croats were just as bad as each other, employing Balkan banditry rather than sophisticated warfare.

As regards the rest, well both the Slovenes and the Brit population at large tend to regard the Serbs as the worst, but the Croats as pretty bad too. And nobody likes the Albanians.

Beyond

I get it, I get it. You saw Karadzic in Poland and he was well protected. What do you think he would be? Unarmed and unprotected?
Every leader is protected. Take a look a how well Obama is protected by his goons.
Look Dr. Cornelius, we don't need your sarcasm here.
What's with "poor misunderstood Serbs" line? I don't care if you understand the Serbs or not. You are obviously very anti-Serb and that's OK by me but when you start with the sarcasm I really think you are nothing but a low person who needs to use sarcasm and smart arse remarks to make his point.
So I suggest you take your hatred and bias and keep it to yourself.

Eventually everyone of your kind starts to show his true colours no matter how civilized they first appear.

Peggy - you asked about the Medak pocket. Here is a very good URL to the Canadian version of events from an UNPROFOR standpoint:

http://www.cda-cdai.ca/library/medakpocket.htm

basic message is that experienced troops in heavy armour who are willing to shoot back are an effective peace-keeping force, and lightly-armed novice troops (like the Dutch at Srebrenice) are not. Otherwise more Serb troops would have got killed invading Srebrenice, like 200 Croatian troops were killed fighting the Canadians (none of whom got killed, by the way.) Civil war is an ugly business, and peacekeepers need to be able to out-gun either side if necessary (as the Canadians indeed did at Medak.)

Poor misunderstood Serbs; I wonder who is sheltering whom in Pale now ? Certainly when I saw Karadzic in person in Warsaw he looked every inch the War Lord, thick 'bling' gold jewellery and a band of Kalashnikov-wielding goons around him (who even frightened Polish police veterans of the Communist era there and martial law under Jaruzelski.)

OH yes, I see now. You pick and choose which crimes you are going to concentrate on.
Have you ever strolled down to Kosovo and seen Serbs behind barbed wire and having NATO escort to church and school? Imagine having to be escorted to school. These are only kids.
What about the organ harvesting that went on? You don't see that as a ghoulish crime?

Srebrenica you mentioned. What about all the Serbs which were being killed in and around Srebrenica before Serbs went in and started to kick Muslim behind. Nobody mentions these victims of Srebrenica. What do you expect to happen to people who are killing your own? You too would go in there all guns blazing. Maybe not. You are too civilized for that.
What about Medek pocket? Have you heard of that? Yes, Serbs in Croatia were exposed to horrific ethnic cleansing by the Croats. When Canadian peacekeepers tried to get there to stop Serbs being murdered in horrific ways they were fire on as well. When they finally got in what they saw saw a horrible nightmare which still haunts the soldiers to the day. They come back occasionally to see if anyone has returned and speak with the ones who have. This was done by the Croatians who you think are better.
What about the atrocities in WW2 against the Serbs when even the Germans were horrified at what took place? The mentality hasn't changed.
War is brutal and all sides have mass casualties but you seem to only have visited the Croatian and Muslim graves.
Maybe you haven't even read anything by General MacKenzie who was there who disagrees with you. Many others have written articles saying that some things were even staged and propaganda was in full swing against the Serbs.

I am not trying to change your mind because I know it is already closed to the Serbs. I am only pointing out for all here to read how when you choose to only research into one side you are not very informed at all. If you had bothered to research Croatian, Bosnian Muslim and Albanian crimes against the Serbs you would not say that Serbs were worse. Perhaps someone else whose mind and heart is not closed to the Serbs might just go and get some facts instead of most of the propaganda and hype out there.

Well, Peggy, all I can say is that visiting Vukovar (and its graves of Croatian civilians), Srebrenice (with its Bosnian graves), and Sarajevo (with its massive civilian graves too) do tend to leave one with rather a negative impression of Serbia and its VJ (Vojsko Jugoslovenske) army. Maybe it needs a PR advisor paid by the EU.

The worst occasion I personally witnessed myself was in the Hotel Europejski in Warsaw back in 1995, when Karadzic and his armed entourage took over the first floor of the hotel. Threatening peaceful Poles (and one UK national - me) with Kalashnikovs really wasn't a very good idea. In PR terms it was dreadful. (Probably it goes down better in Pale, but in Warszawa it went down like a lead balloon. And I speak more than enough Polish to understand what the locals were saying about it.)

"whereas with Serbs I always have the unpleasant feeling that they have just murdered somebody and that the body/bodies are still buried and about to be discovered. "

Dr. Corneluis, there is no mistaking what you said. These are your words not mine.

I know you didn't say that the Croats were blameless but you did say that the Serbs are the worst and you expect only the worst from them. Read that sentence again.

It doesn't matter. I really don't care if you like or hate Serbs. That is your personal opinion but what I am saying is that you should've disclosed your distaste for Serbs firs of all. That would've been a much more honest debate.

Again, each to their own. We are all biased in some way and no amount of evidence to the contrary will probably make a huge difference as we all tend to brush the unpleasant evidence aside and absorb what is easy for us to absorb. That's human nature.

Peggy - you are rather missing the point. I didn't say that the Croats were guiltless, far from it, but I did say that I felt happiest in the region with Slovene guides. What's wrong with that ? (OK, there is that nasty business involving the Domobranci back in 1944/45, but Slovenia has set up its own version of the "Truth and Reconciliation Commission" to deal with that, which seems to have worked.)

Dr. Cornelius, I get it now. You should've been honest from the beginning. It is your hatred of the Serbs and your personal wish that Serbs be abandoned by Russians. Your opinion was created out of that and not some "facts" you saw in the Russian media. I did ask for a link to that media but you failed to produce it.

All I can say to you is that you stick with you belief but you are in the minority and your circle is getting smaller. So much for you "education" and your crossing Yugoslavia by bike.
As far as your feeling of Serbs just murdered somebody, again that's your opinion based on nothing more than your bias.
Obviously you don't count Medek pocket and the entire Krajina being cleansed of Serbs as atrocities. You don't count bombing of refugees as they were already leaving as an atrocity. So the Croats have committed less crimes in your opinion. The Croats have been committing crimes against Serbs and Jews for a long time now. WW2 has shown us just how human Croats are and they still haven't changed, but of course, it is the Serbs' own fault that more of them died and were removed from their homes than Croats.

Good luck with your hatred and bias. It's a good thing that most of the world doesn't agree with you.
I say to you, have your opinion by all means, but DO NOT try to shove it down our throats with lies like Russia doesn't care about Serbia. this is just your own personal wish which unfortunately for you will not get in the way of Serbian, Russian relationship.

Well, it is probably no coincidence that I feel happiest with Slovene colleagues (for whose integrity I have the highest respect), whereas with Serbs I always have the unpleasant feeling that they have just murdered somebody and that the body/bodies are still buried and about to be discovered. With Croats, somewhere in between. Sorry - you may not like this - but this is the reaction of an educated foreigner who has traversed (by bike) the full length of former Yugoslavia more than once. Meanwhile, hvala lepa / hvala lijepa / grumbullimit

Well...what can i say....You can wiggle and talk as much as you want to. The bottom line is that you dont seem (or wish not to) aknowledge what volunteering means. Since your british dictionary offered no help i will volunteer to translate it for you: "vol·un·teer [ vòllən tr ] somebody who works for nothing: somebody who works without being paid". Its one word that has one and only one meaning in my language! Now you and your government may have many meanings for such a word...depending on propaganda purpose.How about calling a mercenary a "Contractor" its such a nice and productive word?! Its helping the Iraqis so much,dont you think?...From your coments regarding my country, meaning of kosovo......(everything u said).....i can comfortably conclude that you really dont have a slightest clue. You might know the geography but your view of russia, serbia(kosovo), its people, culture and hystory is completely biased. Anyways, i do not care as what you did in my country (i know serbs did not need your service) as this is also not the topic. Hovewer, one thing is sure; You did not volenteer. The truth will catch-up with you sooner or later. Im done debating.. I really wish you all the best, and hope that one day you will truly understand serbs.

Correction - it wasn't Knin, it was Ilok, the farthest east village/town in Croatia, that I visited. Knin is where the Croatian army behaved rather badly on another occasion. (My friends and guides were Slovenes, so they took a neutral stance most of the time. Except about Vukovar, which horrified them too.)

to 'Serb' - I have worked in your country for some months, in the Ministry building in Niemanjina, Beograd, so don't tell me I have no knowledge of it. As for "volunteer" and "mercenary", there is not much of a difference except that the mercenary gets paid more. (The Russian for "volunteer" is "volontar", and for "mercenary" is "nauyumnik", if that's helpful.) Finally. I spent some time avoiding mines round the killing-fields of Vukovar and Knin in the farthest east part of Croatia where the Serbian army committed many atrocities, so please do not assume that I am unfamiliar with the region.

And i forgot to say....I call things like i see them. You and your kind call things as you would like them to be. Maybe you read "voloenteer" but somehow it cam up as mercenary??!!! Iraq mercenary? maybe??? for money?? maybe such as english mercenarys in iraq.

english is not my first language....therefore im not going to discuss the difference between "volunteer" and "mercenary". Why dont u please check your "Oxford" dictionary for details "my friend". You know what BBC and CNN tell you so in your oppinion that makes u very well educated...you dont know rats a## about my country, our history or anybody elses history for that matter. I dont blame you for not knowing, coz you are British....Ohh sorry should i say "english".I have a really good Scottish friend that i consider to be my close friend....you really dont wanna know what he and many other think of your kind. What goes arround comes arround.

Well, thankd to "Serb" for the hyperlink - as it says, there were a couple of hundred Russian mercenaries who went into Bosnia on the Serbian side and (apparently) assisted in the International War Crime of the Siege of Sarajevo. I don't think I really want to hear about war criminals like that.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G-hPPpF8LHY&feature=related

Dr. Cornelius, I just don't buy it. If Russians don't care about Serbs why then did so many volunteer to put their own lives in peril to go and fight alongside with Serbs during the Balkan war?
I know many Russians who care very deeply about Serbs.

Please be so kind as to provide a link to some articles you say support your idea that Russians don't care about Serbs. I am very interested to see that for myself.

Again, I say, did one American or Brit or German risk his life to defend Croat, Bosnian Muslim of Albanian unless they were sent there? The Germans, Croats, Bosnian Muslims and Albanians were all on the same side in WW2 so you would think it would count for something. After all, you are the one who is willing to back a century to show me how Russia doesn't care about Serbia. I am only going back 60 years. They were allies and I bet you nobody cared enough to go and volunteer except for Mujahedeens.

This to me speaks volumes. I am willing to read articles where I can see a different story.

Ohh and im sure america's so called "friends and allys" (Pakistan, Saudi, most european countries...Africa..asia...south america)want all the best to you. The reality is that they either a.) want you to loose your superpower, go bankrupt at least (ooops - its hapening) or b.) simply your extermination. Now if you can call this a friendship and respect..... its SCARY!!!. You my serb/russian bashing "friends", have a different deffinition of friendship than that we serbs and russians have!

"There are no permanent friends and no permanent enemies in international Relations.." That is true. However, for the past couple of hundert years russians were our allys. ANd besides, calling someone a friend does not mean he/she is your friend..it might just as well be your enemy who u want to put down. America calls every country a friend but does so to destroy and oppress them at the end. Every country america was fully behind (helping, loving) got destroyed by america. Iraq is just the newest example. Trust me, serbs do not want your friendship, and they know it is not true friendship...its just to get by until our time comes. (That applies to all countries that are influenced by USA or UK....we dont see you as friends as we know who u are). Russia on other hand stood by us as much as they could in good and bad times sacrificing a lot.... That is something no serb will forget and no American or British understand. There is few countries that serbia considers as friends...true friends

First i agree with Andy's
There are no permanent friends and no permanent enemies in international Relations.."
second it concludes to much more than to being broke or not broke at the moment its a far reaching game of chess played behind the scenes by 'think tanks' Bondsteel
is the first step.
By the way земский събор may not be so romantic of an idea it could be related to Slav orthodox beliefs
apart very concrete things such as pipelines and their exploitation.
About Albania it is better to have her within that out.Imagine
Dr Cornelius what a double no
would have triggered in Langley.
"a pain in the ass"

Peggy - Yes, you are right about Gruznia/Georgia being part of Moscow's sensitive underbelly, and let's see what happens with Moldova at the moment (in a similarly-placed part of the anatomy of Mother Russia.) But I just don't buy this one about Russians sharing any "brotherly love" for Serbs. I read the Russian press on-line every day, and the average Russian couldn't give a monkey's about Serbia (translation from UK English: the average Russian is not overly concerned about Serbian matters.)

Dr. Cornelius, everything changes. Politicians and their goals change all the time. What happened back then may not be an indicator of anything but we have to look at today's situation and today's needs of any country.
Putin is not Stalin and Putin's agenda is his own. Whatever that means for Serbia it certainly cannot be compared to Stalin or even Yeltsin who is closer in history.

All I can say is that Russians and Serbs do share a lot of brotherly love for one another and that has to mean something to the governments of both countries. I know that governments only have interests but it is also in their interest to be re-elected.

All in all, an ordinary American will not give a damn about an Albanian but an ordinary Russian will care very much about a Serb. That was proven during the war when so many Russians volunteered to help Serbs. How many Americans volunteered to help Albanians? None. They were ordered to back them up.

I know that you can see this as well. It's now a matter of who is in a better position to get what they want.
While US is living on Chinese loans they cannot be in a position to finance all the wars they need to keep going and start new ones.
Russia has already dared them to back their words up with deed in Georgia and they failed. All they did was a lot of condemning but nothing else. Isn't Georgia their little pet protectorate?
North Korea openly defied them and nothing happened. Looks like the US is not much more than a toothless tiger. They are too stretched in other places to be of any real threat to Russia.

Peggy - You and I may agree about more than we think: the admission of Albania to NATO was a great mistake which Greece should have blocked with its veto (unfortunately Greece was obsessed with the Macedonian name issue and chose the wrong target for its veto. Not the first time in Greek history that this has happened...)

As for "Zemskiy Sobor", with his hark-back to pre-1914 days of supposed Russian-Serbian brotherhood, his idea of history is odd. Neither Lenin nor Stalin gave any weight or importance to Serbia, and whatever one might think about their politics, their sense of strategy was first-class. Which is why Stalin left it all to Tito after WW2 (Tito, a Croat, was a pretty wily politician. But he had little time for the Serbs, whom he regarded as a band of mutinous peasants.)

This comment has been removed by the moderator because it contained

Dr.Cornelius, I already explained why Russia did not intervene then but we seem to be going in circles here. I will drop it.
If Russia has no interest in this why do you think they are so determined to veto along with China. Why do you think that 2/3 of the world has not recognized Kosovo if this is a done deal?

Yes, Kosovo and Kosova is a huge difference. Kosovo as you pointed out the meaning is still a Serbian word. Does this not tell you something? What was this land called before Kosovo if it was Albanian? This is also a clue as to who this land belongs to.
America and Australia have been settled much later and yet they don't question who owns the land but Kosovo which is much older is being put into question every day.

In your opinion then, if we have Mexicans outnumber others in California should California break away and become Mexico? Do you honestly believe that this is legally and morally right?

The fact that you were more understood in Bulgaria speaking Russian doesn't mean anything. Russian volunteers were fighting along with Serbs during the war. I wonder if there was a language barrier then. If there was, it certainly didn't prevent the Russians from joining in. This shows brotherhood just like the mujanedeens helped the Bosnian Muslims who don't speak the same language.
I think you have overlooked a few things but it does look like you have your view which you will not deviate from so we just have to disagree respectfully.

everyone seems to think that usa is kosovos only ally... everyone seems to forget strongly economical countries are backing kosovo up greatly, for example germany, britain, france, holland, denmark, usa is not kosovos only hope

Kosovo, at this point, is a military state with camp Bondsteel, UN corp etc. Invading Kosovo which I reiterate is the only option for Serbia to take Kosovo, is absurd at best.
To make things complicated for Serbs is the accession of Albania in Nato, which obviously is a boost for the Albanians in Kosovo. Either way you look at it you've been check mated long time ago. You just need to wake up and smell the roses.

Peggy - I take your point, but back in 1999 when the NATO bombers pounded Novi Sad and Beograd, Russia did not intervene (although it was a bit silly of NATO to bomb the Chinese Embassy !) I had to work in ul. Nemanjina (Beograd) next to the bombed Air Ministry building in 2005, in the Serbian Ministry of Agriculture, and nothing much had been done to repair the damage. I tried speaking Russian too, and nobody understood me ! (In contrast, when I spoke Russian in Sofia and indeed in Chisinau, everybody understood me. My Russian, by the way, though not perfect, is adequate and always understood by Russians. Also by Bulgarians too.) So I really doubt this "blood brotherhood" between Russians and Serbs that you claim.

Finally, as I understand it, "Kosova" is the Albanian word and "Kosovo" the Serbian one. Never did so much hang by a single vowel ! Incidentally, "Kosovo Polje" translates into slightly old English as "Blackbird Leys", which is also the name of Oxford's most crime-ridden council estate (=public housing for non-UK readers).

And who is going to fight this war for you?
Are you expecting NATO to be your personal airforce again?
Not in this lifetime.

Kosovo is independent.
Serbia can take Kosovo only through war.
War is highly unlikely.
If there's war Serbia will lose.

I see, so Bondsteel is not a threat to Russia or it's interests.
America and Europe can afford to keep throwing money into this bottomless pit called "Kosova". Russia and China will not veto UN membership. Cyprus, Spain etc will not veto EU membership.
According to you this is how it's all going to pan out because US is so powerful that these countries will just crumble and all will fall into place for K-Albanians.

You have forgotten that US is broke and it cannot continue to live on borrowed money for purposes of oiling it's military occupational machine. Don't forget that Russia has poured billions into IMF and China's money is helping America survive. How do you think they are in a position to hold out when like I said all Russia has to do is veto without having to pour money to do so.

People like Cheney have brought America to her knees and America has to rebuild now.
Too many problems of which Kosovo is not on top. Do you honestly believe that America will go to war with anyone in Europe? They bombed Serbia once but just like in WW1 I believe that if Serbia became attacked Russia will be there. Whether you think it would be reluctantly or not, Russia will be there. Russia cannot afford any more countries to become American lackies especially Serbia.

Having their influence in that region is important for both so as much as you say that Russia doesn't care about Serbia I don't agree. I respect your opinion on this but you have not convinced me that America cares more about Bondsteel than Russia about her influence in Serbia.

Time will tell. We can sit here and debate till the cows come home and neither one of us is likely to change our mind but only time will tell. So far America hasn't won any wars it started yet. It lost in Vietnam, it certainly isn't winning in Iraq and Afghanistan is an absolute mess in which only more American lives will be lost and this is all before America hit rock bottom. What chance do they have now?

Peggy - the US investment in Camp Bondsteel is disproportionate to Kosovo's size, I agree, but it suits Uncle Sam's need for a permanent watching site in the region given its new dependence on oil transiting from the Caspian region. After all, the US levelled two mountains to create the site, so that wasn't to be a "temporary" location. And of course, Halliburton (Dick Cheney's pet company) were and are deeply involved. I doubt that even Obama can unravel this one.

Turning to Russia, the Russian attitude to the Serbs has long been one of slightly vexed tolerance of an awkward younger sibling who can't even use the Cyrillic alphabet properly (unlike the Bulgarians, who do.) Even as I write, the Russians have come in heavy about Moldova (which they regard as part of the sacred 'rodina' or Motherland) in a way that they would never have done about distant Serbia. Indeed, some Russians have never forgiven the Serbs for having started the First World War, for which they were ill-prepared (as opposed to the Great Patriotic War 1940-45, which the Russians not unreasonably think they won. During which time Serbia was no more than an inconvenient nuisance.)

Dr. Cornelius, since you agree that neither Russia nor America can be trusted why then do you think that it will be Russia who bargains Kosovo away?
Russia is involved for a reason otherwise it wouldn't be. China is also ready to veto a membership to the UN. Why? Isn't it easier for America to accept something else in return knowing that Kosovo doesn't have a hope in joining UN or even FIFA without Russia or China and having to fund Kosovo indefinitely than Russia just holding onto this veto. 2/3 of the world hasn't recognized Kosovo. The US is running out of money to pressure the rest of the world to play nice with them.
Russia cannot afford this part of the world to be totally dominated by America either. It is a threat to them. I am not so naive to believe that Russian/Serbian relationship will be enough to include Russia in any war but camp Bondsteel is a serious provocation.
There are many reason why Russia cannot abandon Serbia.
Why do you think that US would never bargain Kosovo away? I would really like to hear this.

Peggy - I don't place any trust in Uncle Sam at all (not least about the Albanians, who suddenly appear to have joined NATO, despite their 'Kanun of Lek' and other blood-feud habits), but neither do I place any trust in the Russians, whose idea of the sacred 'rodina' or 'motherland' only goes as far as the Tsarist empire's outer frontiers (so much for Communism !) These frontiers do not include Serbia. Pan-Slav romanticism will only go so far, and as far as Matka Rossiya is concerned, Serbia is not included. (Now if we were to talk about Poland, it might be a different matter...)

Andy and Dr Cornelius, perhaps, but how much do the Americans care about Albanians?I keep hearing how Russia has no friends but interests, but that is exactly what the Americans are saying about America.
So then, let's say that Serbia and Kosovo are just commodities, who is ready to trade which commodity?
I think both of you are putting too much trust in the US but the same if not worse can apply to the Albanian-American relationship.
Do you agree?

I tend to agree with Andy - the Serb/Russian "blood brother" feeling is distinctly one-sided: the Serbs may see the Russians as "moy droog", but the Russians are much more hard-headed and care only about their own 'sphere of influence', which rather unfortunately includes Georgia and Moldova (look at recent events in Chisinau and you'll see what I mean !) This 'sphere of influence' does not include Serbia, much as the Serbs would like to think that it did. Another Great Illusion...

Peggy - your comment is conspirative at best and Russia TOday reporting at worst. Get a grip of reality. There are no permanent friends and no permanent enemies in International Relations - you can take your Serbian-Russia 'deep' friendship for a test ride and see that is all just geo-politics.

Mr. Athisaari, even if they haven't mentioned Kosovo that doesn't mean that Russia will recognize. It could mean that Kosovo is not high on the list or that the US knows it really doesn't have any more rabbits to pull out.
Why do you think that it will be Russia to cave in?
It is the US who is broke and living on Chinese money these days NOT Russia. Russian people feel a deep connection to the Serbs so an about face will be harder to explain to them than the US who only sees Kosovo as a commodity, and we all know that commodities are traded every day.